"All armi presente, al vostra singori" is not fake italian. It translates to "Present yourself in arms, all my sirs" and actually is the origin of the short word "alarm". Italian used to be the lingua franca of German troups for centuries an formed an italian dialect of it's own.
What an excellent presentation! I know and love all those landsknecht and pseudo-landsknecht songs, and to see them as a reflection of German social processes was an eye-opener. Well done, and greetings from Poland.
With all those songs coming from other areas from German history I still think its amazing how "authentic" they still sound. Interesting moustache by the way!
If you read a few words of Early New High German (Frühneuhochdeutsch; I don’t mean this as a snarky remark, it’s really unusual for anyone to have read stuff like this!), you’ll see that they really don’t sound historical. If they were, their language would have to have been vastly modernised, which usually isn’t done to this extent. It really all sounds like 19th-century romanticism or folksy political songs from the 20s and 30s. That’s why the first song actually sounds historical: it’s full of forms you wouldn’t expect, or at least only in dialect, and close to nobody* has been writing political songs in dialect for the last 200 years. *) Of course many did, talking absolute numbers; I mean nobody in a sense of vast public reception and distribution.
I'm very glad that you actually made this video! I certainly twisted things when it came to other songs such as Unser Liebe Fraue, and I just love those, they're so beautiful, but then I saw Wir Sind des Geyers Haufen being depicted as a national-socialist song some time ago, thanks for the video!
When I check the German wikipedia it says, that the song was created around 1920 and only later used by the Nazis: de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wir_sind_des_Geyers_schwarzer_Haufen Der Text des Liedes entstand um 1920 in Kreisen der Bündischen Jugend unter Verwendung von Textteilen des Gedichtes Ich bin der arme Kunrad von Heinrich von Reder (1885), die Melodie stammt von Fritz Sotke (1919). The text of the song was written around 1920 in circles of the Bündische Jugend using parts of the text of the poem Ich bin der arme Kunrad by Heinrich von Reder (1885), the melody was written by Fritz Sotke (1919).
@@hildebrandgotenland4823 Yeah, I think I missed that, although the song databases mostly pointed to 1934. I'd still be a bit wary of this song though. Fritz Sotke seems to have been a rather willing NSDSP member and was active in the HJ for which he used he used his song writing talents quite dilligently.
@VirtualFechtschule I'm not german, but it surprised me that the song has such strong nazi roots. In my experience the people who romanticize the german peasants revolt are usually socialists or communists. Anyways this was a great and informative video!
"A la mi presente, al vostra signori!" is Landsknechtswelsch meaning "To the arms, to the muster Gentlemen! Landsknechtswelsch was a bastard combination of German and Italian.
The commonly accepted translation is actually not true and makes zero sense, I spent a week reconstructing it myself from old texts in lombardian and old italian as well as german (I am german myself). Basically, Landsknechts were trying to emulate the languages of the countries they fought in, but failed. That is why it is called Kauderwelsch because it actually makes no sense in any language. Anyway, the most reasonable "translation" (what they meant to say with it) is: "I bow. I present myself/my arms to you my noble lords." which was probably a common thing they used to say as mercenaries and so they put it in their song
@@uncannysnake It seems to come down to how to interpret the "signori". You could be right with it, referring to noble contractors rather than the Landsknechts themselves. But as you mentioned, it is kauderwelsch and failed poorly. So maybe even at the time, few could make sense of it. Imo, if this phrase was not chosen randomly just to fit in the melody, it must have been a pretty common thing to say among the Landsknechts. If that is the case, given the common resentment against nobility in general, I personally cannot imagine such a servile tone from a Landsknechtssong.
@@brunobrunani4975Yeah the servile tone seems odd (however one cannot discount irony). My main anchorpoint is the wiktionary article for "stramp" which is friulian (so very fitting) and judging from it's ascendancy it means something like "slanted". Strampede mi, "I am slanted." So with that, who else would a Landsknecht bow to? I just cannot see how it could mean an address to a fellow mercenary
Interesting how the algorithm has lead me down a tunnel of associated topics, from "oh that sword looks neat", to such a specific topic, but this was a very well presented video I have to say.
Personally I do not see the use of these songs by “politically alligned people” as a problem. All these songs mention some kind of struggle that could be perceived as class struggle. Making it favourable by lefties, but also the idea of duty which attracts the right. I would argue it’s what makes these songs so great, everyone can relate in some way. My favourite is landsknecht von natur, I feel as for me, with some medical issues which will likely last my entire life, but wanting to be a military man, it just touches me. The end makes me tear up, if only I could thank god that way.
I greatly appreciate the explanation of these songs in Englisch. I'm always trying to listen to more German music to learn the language better but get afraid of what the lyrics might be saying. It's extremely important to know the culture and history around this music. This might not be related to the channel's theme but could you do a German genre over view of music. Alot of the post war punk sounds awesome but I'm worried it might also be pro-communism or Neo-Nazi. I just want to jam out to German music without the politics hahaha. Amazing video
I am not a reenactor, but I am active in a very closely adjacent field (LARP, but not important for this point). And I have for a very long time enjoyed Landsknecht songs, singing them as well in a group etc. The thing is, as you have rightly pointed out that those songs have a complicated and fascinating history, it is sadly very common to be lumped in with either political belief system by those either uninformed or, much worse, half informed... or simply strong believers. We have thus decided to ditch those songs all together. Because we are there to have fun, NOT to have a political debate. Should I ever find myself in a situation where I talk about it, I will send the other person to this video, not only because you can explain it better than me, but also because of the fabulous beard :)
Thanks! Though perhaps I should clarify that I'm not advocating for completely ditching Landsknecht songs. Some should probably just be left alone, like Geyers schwarzen Hauffen. All the 16th century bits belong at a campfire perfectly well. Others, like Der Tod in Flandern may be anachronistic, but they're at heart anti-war songs so I don't see any inherent problems with them. But yeah, I do understand it takes the fun away when you constantly need to remind and argue with people which songs are okay and which not.
I also think ditching these songs completely is exaggerated and idk why you couldn't even enjoy songs from the 3rd Reich if they are good? The lyrics are not controversial and even in those times the tradition of beautiful soldier or love songs continued and would have continued under any government, so don't be that paranoid.
@@hildebrandgotenland4823 Well, nobody can force you to not sing certain songs. But they do signal some things. Have you ever considered why most renditions of Geyer's schwarzer Hauffen show footage of nazi soldiers? That song is politically loaded nowadays, unfortunately. So if you sing that one at a campfire, people might be questioning whether you're a neo-nazi or not. I mean, I understand that people still enjoy the song, but singing it out loud does send a certain message unfortunately. Part of why I wanted to do this video is help people understand the background of these songs, precisely because it would be a shame if people just ditched all of them. Some songs are authentic, some just anachronistic, and some still send a political message nowadays, and you should be careful about how you choose to engage with them (if only because your intentions might be mistaken).
@@VirtualFechtschule I don't agree here either. We can shape what the song means for us today, we are not the slaves of the past. If good people use and spread it, it can lose any bad connotation and become normal. So instead of letting the Neonazis win, use these songs even more! I mean look. If people sing and like these songs, have no historical education yet and they don't even get the idea it could be from NS times, it means the song itself seems to be harmless and no problem at all (lyricwise). Only if you push for "but it was from that evil time", the people start to ditch it, as someone in the comments already announced and I think that really shouldn't be your goal. See even this famous piece is from Nazi Germany and everyone is still playing it: th-cam.com/video/Yb6jULNu5ik/w-d-xo.html And there are more of such examples. You seriously should mention in such a video a distinction between really political propagandy songs and normal songs about historical events or even regular soldier songs. Even if a Landsknecht song has been made in the 30s, it is not automatically evil.
@@hildebrandgotenland4823 I respect that opinion, but I don't share your optimism about reclaiming everything the nazis ever took. That said, It could be done. As soon as it stops being a modern dog whistle, you can start that process. After all, it's a bit hard to start turning the swastika back into a normal symbol while all kinds of hate groups are still using it. Once they die out at some point (hopefully) over time it could be reclaimed I think.
The making of the video is good, but I have some objective criticism. Firstly, when I check the German wikipedia site it says, that Wir sind des Geyers schwarzer Haufen was created around 1920 and only later used by the Nazis: de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wir_sind_des_Geyers_schwarzer_Haufen "Der Text des Liedes entstand um 1920 in Kreisen der Bündischen Jugend unter Verwendung von Textteilen des Gedichtes Ich bin der arme Kunrad von Heinrich von Reder (1885), die Melodie stammt von Fritz Sotke (1919). The text of the song was written around 1920 in circles of the Bündische Jugend using parts of the text of the poem Ich bin der arme Kunrad by Heinrich von Reder (1885), the melody was written by Fritz Sotke (1919)." So marking it as a NS-song seems to be completely wrong and you should post a statement correcting that. A better example would have been "Das Leben ist ein Würfelspiel" which really is from 1935. Quite often, such songs were created by a single person in the 1920s, but only later published in the 1930s and are not originally from the 3rd Reich era really. Secondly, I don't like this paranoid approach that anything from 1933 to 1945 is automatically evil and must be avoided. The Germans always had a tradition of soldier songs, love songs or songs about former historical events as the battles of the Landsknechts for example. And obviously that tradition has also continued in the 3rd Reich, but it would have continued under any government, no matter which political agenda it had. So why shouldn't we be able to also enjoy these songs from that era? Even the German army continued to use them, because the lyrics are completely normal and innocent and the Germans in that time, now hold back your paranoia, were not all evil devils. I see no problem in singing Erika, Panzerlied or Wir lagen vor Madagaskar or Lili Marleen. So I think there is nothing controversial about singing a normal song from 1935. Only if it is an explicit propaganda song, such as Deutschland erwache or the Horst-Wessel-Lied, I can understand to avoid them. But regular soldier songs? That should be no problem at all. So I don't agree with your point here. There might be single cases, where real neonazis sing these songs because they were from that time, but usually people just enjoy them for their aesthetics. Have you reached out to the bigger traditional German music channels, that upload these songs before making your video at all? Such as Dr. Ludwig, Karl Sternau or Der Michel? They might have added some important information as well to all of that. But else it was fascinating what you found out, even if you got some spelling mistakes, especially at Wir sind des (not den) Geyers schwarzer Haufen. Also Elternhaus doesn't mean retirement home, but the house of your parents (You probably thought they mean Altenheim/ Altenhaus). But that's just nitpicking, your video is still great and your pronounciation pretty well! :)
Seeing depictions on landsknechts on the march, which often looks rather chaotic and more like a crowd on the move than an army on the march... I never really believed in the Landsknecht marching songs. Their songs would be medieval ballads mostly and sung while relaxing or working in the camp.
The Florian Geyer song has been commandered by the radical left since atleast the 60s... In Denmark the translation is a stable of classical Socialist songs
To think the Keizer eating the whole of flinders has to do with WW1 makes me feel like this perception comes from an allied nation. I believe this song has much More to do with the 80’s war, the Habsburgs and the Netherlands. Referencing berg op zoom, Gelders, and an actual Keizer that did have designs on Flanders’s. There was no design on Belgium in WW1. Not to the extend you or the song talks about.
Cool how I’d already heard every single song that you showed here. I even guessed that “Wir sind des Geyers schwarzer Haufen” would be the song you’d use for the nazi era! Proof that I’m a history nerd and a half lol. That and that I listen to German marching music way too much (if that’s even possible).
Colossal swords are not a historical term, but if you are referring to zweihander or spadone type swords, they're not really much wider (or not wider at all) compared to "normal" longswords, they are quit light and nimble for their size.
Man, this is a big topic that had me lost in thought for like twenty minutes before I slapped myself out of it. My historical interests are quite wide ranging, and I have to say that what you're seeing with Landsknect is seen in many different areas; not just for German things, but related to a loose set of ideologies/sympathies that align closely with N*zi (self censoring so youtube doesn't decide it hates me. Yikes.) beliefs. I'm not going to write an essay, but from the love of all things German ww1 and ww2, to the modern love of "vikings" - there's a stunning amount of...interesting beliefs forming a base of those interests, and a considerable amount of interconnectedness. Just to give an example: This modern loved narrative of goody "vikings" graping bad-guy inferior England is literally a post 1939 bit of N*zi propaganda. The actual revival of love for "vikings" and sadly, Germanic paganism (which has also unfortunately been co-opted by the nordic supremacist crowd) stems from 19th and early 20th century ethnonationalist types within the general Germanic world (from Scandinavia, Germany, England, and the rest of the anglosphere). We have a surreal situation where netflix show will simultaneously show a narrative founded on actual Nazi propaganda, and have a primary star be black for modern politics browny-points. Clown world does indeed exist. Though I should say that, just because a subject has been touched by groups like the N*zis, it doesn't mean the subject/interest is the problem. The problem is that it can kind of corrupt a subject to the point where it becomes almost inherently suspect. I have to be honest, after decades of going deeply in ww2 history, whenever I hear someone talk glowingly about something ww2 Germany; my eyebrow raises. There's always questions of "why, of all things, have you decided to attach yourself to that, considering the context? Why are you repeating misleading or false information to make that thing seem great?"
That is well said. Some things have been claimed beyond reclaiming unfortunately. I think we can claim Landsknechts back, same as with most runes. Some symbols have been too tainted though, and even more so because they are still in use as dogwhistles by extreme groups. I often get itchy feelings when I see some people romanticise German ww2 armour or warships and then also be super into vikings and a romanticised version of the late middle ages and such. :P
@@VirtualFechtschule To mention general "older" Germanic things (like runes); one of the bits I find *really* odd is that so, so many people from places like England (and it's child countries), will go out of their way to grant all kinds of symbols to scandinavia, which ends up putting the ball in the court of the minority of questionable types. I imagine it's the same in the Netherlands. I imagine that if you said "rune" to most English speakers, they'd say "vikings, right?". If the people of countries that were actively opposed to the N*zis would even try to "claim" these things, or just be aware of them, the ball would be less in the court of modern nordic supremacist groups; essentially reforming the thing in question. Just some thoughts I had recently.
Well not ‘founded on nazi propaganda’ but corresponding to certain titles made prominent at least among toehrs in it If you believe it is possible to ‘co-opt’ an idea with the sense of not just taking it for yourself but taking it from others (but you can’t actually take an idea form others as such), let’s assume ur point- why is Netflix not carrying out a ‘detournement’ or copying the narratives from it - let’s assume that literally the case- and putting them ina. Different context. Logically if you believe it was possible to ‘take away’ by Laing so- why not? Your problem is that the coherent point sit idee actual *pragmstic* practical, and ideological etc. Features not just compare symbols. Having certain attitudes to symbols or avoiding certain symbols won’t ‘save’ You in itsel always possible to find It’s stupid and brainless but it is simply a clipped understanding of morality how you and he describe wut
Maybe that Is not fake Italian but old Italian , " al mi presente , al vostra signori(a)" in modern Italian Is grammaticaly wrong but maybe It could be correct in old italians ( I don't dont know I'm only suppose). " al mi presente" could means "I'm present " ( the military salute) and " vostra signori(a)"Is actually Italian could means something like "your majesty"/"vostra maestà" but the difference Is that while you use "vostra maestà/your majesty" to address respectfully to the King ,if instead you Need to address to a lord ( signore in italian) you Say "vostra signoria"that means"my lord". In conclusion the Italian part of this beautifull Song could means: "present!( military salute) my lord" I'm Italian by the way. Another translation could be " I'm ready , at your service my lord" and this make sense because landsknecht was mercenaries Who fight also for Italians lords. We all know the landsknecht Weren't Italians but It's possibile they Learn a Little bit of Italian because they operate in italy, so I don't think Is completely fake Italian but Just a Little incorrect because italian It's not the native language of landsknecht but German
My husband wants to offer a bit of what he thinks is a better translation for one line here: In "Des Geyers schwarzer Haufen" (he was distraught to find out that it was a nazi song, btw, he really likes it and now he can't anymore) "Spiess voran!" does not refer necessarily to the pike, but to the man carrying it. "Spiessbuerger" was a common term referring to the citizen militia of the medieval german cities. In the 20th century it was shortened to "Spiesser". And he thinks, since it is a nazi song, it is supposed to make a connection between the (then) modern soldier ("Landser") and the historical landsknecht ("Spiess"). That's his interpretation, anyway. Besides that, being as close to the truth as possible is what he thinks is the best inoculation against political co-option. If people know that Landsknechte were first and foremost worried about dying, starving, marching, poverty and looting, they will feel something to be wrong when the Landsknechte get co-opted by any political spectrum, be it communism vs fascism or nationalist dreams or whatever might come up in the future. No Landsknecht was concerned about the worker class or the Volksgemeinschaft or had any notion of a nation. On the negative hand, that also means realising they were patriarchal, tyrannical, rapists, aggressive and sociopathic torturers by modern standards, and were rightly viewed as a bane in their time.
Although, since recording and uploading I did stumble upon a slightly earlier origin for the song than I originally thought, but on the other hand, the author Fritz Sotke seems to have been a willing NSDAP member and it was mostly printed in HJ and SS songsbooks. That said, this particular song was never uncontested, since the German Communist Party (KPD) seems to have used it too. After the war, it unsurprisingly also became quite popular in the DDR. I guess just the violent and revolutionary themes appeal to any sort of totalitarian ideology.
I also felt quite bad after diving into this song and realising its origins. It's catchy and the peasant's revolt is just such an interesting bit of history. :(
As far as I know, it is no nazi song: de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wir_sind_des_Geyers_schwarzer_Haufen "The text of the song was written around 1920 in circles of the Bündische Jugend using parts of the text of the poem Ich bin der arme Kunrad by Heinrich von Reder (1885), the melody was written by Fritz Sotke (1919)."
@@hildebrandgotenland4823 It was part of the SS Liedgut, a pretty famous HJ anthem as well and most of its editions were made under NSDAP rule. Even if it was written earlier, it has been used so thoroughly that it unfortunately became one.
"Strampedemi" was also the title of a German songbook published in 1932. It contained more contemporary Landsknecht-themed songs, which may have possible spearheaded the wide propagation of Landsknecht songs during the NS era and what caused the umbrella term for a "Landsknecht song" to be literally any song that mentions them, or is in their style, depending on the author's stance. Similarly, Die Fanfare (1956) is another songbook that contains a literal chapter "Das Kalbfell klingt" with about 80% of it Landsknecht-themed songs. (Botho-Lucas-Chor probably got their songs and arrangements from it)
I made a songbook for our reenactment in Germany (early 17th century). I'm just researching in online-archives such as the "Volkslieder"-archive in Freiburg to find information about the historical background and sources of our songs. Besides it's a good idea to compare with more popular / wide spread songs of the reformation. The anti-catholic church details are often in Landsknecht/real 16th century songs such as "O Magdeburg du feste". Most of our chosen songs are from the later 16th century. It's surprising how few songs from the 17th century are... Great video by the way!
This is all good and well, but I couldn't help noticing that you only spoke about the 16th century before jumping to the modern reinterpretations of these songs from the 19th century on. So my question: what about the 17th and 18th centuries? Were they skipped because there's a lack of source material from that period? Of course I'm aware that as warfare evolved Landsknecht companies have gradually disappeared from the battlefield, but you'd expect that the closer you are to the original time period, there would be at least some sources that are, while not contemporary, at least not from 300 years after.
Oh boy, a video about Landsknecht songs! I can't wait to hear a video about a series of historical songs that are politically neutral and hold no sort of underlining ideological biases whatsover, especially my favourite song Unser Liebe Fraue. *Watches video* Oh. Oh no.
As practitioners of a hobby that serves to interpret the past (and myself as a professional who interprets the past on a daily basis), we have a responsibility to think clearly about what we are doing, plus why, how and for whom we are presenting it. Interpretation of the past is not a value-neutral exercise, and what we say can and will have consequences far beyond what we might imagine. Especially where primary documentation is scarce, past civilizations and historical eras have served as palimpsests, overwritten by subsequent peoples in later time periods again and again, and often without editorial disclosure - to the point where it can become really difficult to strip away the layers and understand what the original 'text' might be saying. The less that the general public understands of history, the easier it becomes to project our own hopes and fears on to the past, or even to co-opt the past for personal and political reasons. The consequences for this have been terrible in the past - and unfortunately, it's still happening right now, all over the world. I'm a bit of a theory wonk, so I really enjoy these sorts of discussions from time to time - but I also believe they are very important.
Very true. I dabble a bit in late iron-age Germanic/Gallic reenactment as well and that was... well... a bit of a minefield. It's a period that is foundational to several big nations' founding myths, there's only scant written sources and a material culture that is difficult to interpret. I ended up joining a Roman group, because they have a sensible idea of what historical reconstruction is and there's also no people who want to put swastikas on shields to trigger the libs. -_-
It is, unfortunately, a deeply rare occurrence to hear someone who delves into history, reenactment and such actually acknowledge that, no, this stuff does not exist in some sort of apolitical vacuum (leaving aside the fact that nothing is truly apolitical anyway). So it was quite refreshing to see that! Also very interesting to see the general characterization of landscknecht in these songs are so oddly consistent, with the theme of them being broke (or soon to be broke) and kind of miserable seemingly surviving for centuries after they stopped existing.
Yeah, it's quite a serious constant, and actually historical record does support that Knechte would face some serious hardships on some campaigns (whereas others proved quite lucrative, of course)
Came a bit when you said "Landsknechte" 😄 Been hearing too much anglo-butchery of the word. Oh also, as a german fencer, living historian and uh... regular historian, i gotta say: awesome vid! I was aware of the topic but you presented it flawlessly imo. Also also: my bachelors thesis was transcribing a landsknecht provosses diary. And my masters was transcribing and working with late XVIth burghers inventories (yeah, they owned armouries and bathhouses 😁) thus i cant not do XVIth in living history anymore. Also since my local armourer specializes in XVIth armour and i got interested friends. Will come back to you for a pike block melee when were ready ;)
Hehehe, the pronunciation in a lot of other videos is a huge pet peeve of mine. :P It also helps that the correct pronunciation sounds a lot more like my native Dutch of course. ;P
And as for the pike block, awesome! I'm really looking to get more people into the martial aspect of Landsknecht living history, so I'm really happy to hear you're into that! With a bit of luck all of that may lead to some cool events in coming years! :D
I am getting more and more into it yeah. Gonna go to a medieval faire today as a thrown together breughel-esque armed peasant early XVIth. Oh and ive read your name in combination with the harnessfencing symposeum in Lauchröden. So i guess we will meet anyways at some point. Also: Yes. If i have a whiskey or three i begin to understand Dutch. Had that conversation recently funnily enough. :D
I've been looking for a decent English translation of some of the landknechte diaries - like Peter Hagendorf, do you know of any having worked in that field?
@@KingTrouser There's an upcoming pretty comprehensive body of work on Dolnstein, but if you just want a translation you can read Mead-Skjelver's thesis. I don't know a lot of other translations though. I mostly work with German language sources for that reason.
I'm seeking to reenact what is sort of the predecessors to the Landsknecht, the Condotierri (of the late 14th Century). What you said is largely true, about different political movements altering it. The most notable Condotierri leader, John Hawkwood, is praised in many Italian towns and known as a sort of hero because of his humble background even to this day. In reality he likely played a part in the Papal Schism, he looted an allied town when the Pope didn't pay him, he killed countless unarmed civilians after they had surrendered, and betrayed the pope even after a long career of working for him.
Hey! I really love your video! I am searching for the fencing source (book??) Where the schielhau picture came from ( 13:10 ) could you elaborate on your source? Or so you know anything about that?
Thanks! It's from 'Ritterliche Waffenspiele: Schwert- u. Stockfechten, Bogenschießen, Armbrustschießen, Bau von Übungswaffen' by Wilhelm Fabricius. From what I could find, it was originally created for the Pfadfinder shortly before they were fully replaced with the Hitlerjugend after 1933. It was published in 1935 for the HJ and reprinted in 1936. I remember once seeing a photo of the HJ doing some sort of Fechtschule reenactment, but I couldn't find that one anywhere anymore, sadly.
@@VirtualFechtschule thanks! As I am from Austria and in a fencing club myself we are always battling the damage the nazis did to our culture and always working on educating people about things that came before and were so sadly corrupted and twisted and used by the Regime Thank you very much for the info, I hope I can find it somewhere
I actually would have been surprised if more than the first song had been historical (meaning: from the 16th century). If you read a bit of Early New High German and adjacent dialects - actually, no text from that age is really free from dialectal forms -, you’ll notice there are huge differences, even though a contemporary German will understand most of it, or everything if they’re aware of certain phenomena in grammar and phonetics typical of the age. I’m not saying that a 16th-c. song text couldn’t have been modernised … but the later songs just sound like German romanticism and (historicist) 20s/30s political songs. On the other hand, as I’ve expected, the first song as it is sung today (even though it still sounds odd to modern German ears) actually already _has_ been modernised. I’ve looked up the original online. The original 1540 print has: _Wir zogen in das feld_ _do het wir weder seckl noch geld_ _Strompede mi_ _[rest of the chorus is the same]_ _Wir kam für sibendod_ _do het wir weder wein noch brot_ _Strompede mi_ _[…]_ _Wir kamen in friaul_ _do het wir allesambt vol maul_ _Strompede mi_ _[…]_
Nice video, will definitely share this to people I know. Also, not sure if anyone has said this before, but you look a lot like Markus Kruber from Warhammer Vermintide, mostly because your gorgeous mustache :)
This sort of thing becomes revisionist when we can’t disprove what has remained via oral tradition. Sometimes we’ve got to go with what we’ve got, unless there is undeniable historical proof otherwise. As someone who has studied folk music for a long time, it’s not unlikely that many of the later romantic era songs are older, if altered or not. Lastly, if they are good landsknecht songs, sounding period accurate and performed accurately, they are landsknecht songs, even if not of the era. Let that spirit live on!
This is a satirical drawing from the early 16th century, so it predates the Cossack painting I think. I'm not aware of any connection, but perhaps an art historian would know a bit more about this.
@@VirtualFechtschule Ah, thank you for the information, after I cleared my head I realized both are probably iterations of the last supper paintings, but that is cool too.
Music, like fencing is a cultural endevour to some degree and culture is always being used by all sides throughout history. So, it is up to us to full our culture (be it historical fencing, reenactment or music) with meaning that supports values of inclusivity and to maintain a clear stance against those that would use our culture for nefarious purposes. Thanks for an excellent video
You're welcome! I recently went to a Wardruna concert and they put it quite succintly: "what we do is not escapism or pretending to be vikings. We take something old and make it into something new. Many things should just stay in the past, but there's a few things that we used to have a lot of, but now have very little of. Singing is one of these things."
Is the emperor eating Flanders not Charles V, who with the Peace of Kamerijk/Chambrai incorperated the whole of Flanders, a fiefdom that had been divided into a imperial part and a French part into the HRE?
More complicated answer: Most verses from Unser Liebe Fraue are from the 19th and 20th centuries. They reflect issues and events from their own time, while embedding them in what is meant to sound like a historical song. It could, for someone at the time of WW1 be understood as an outward reference to Charles, while everyone would understand the subtext of the verse being about Wilhelm.
@@VirtualFechtschule Danke/Thank you.. I always thought it to be 16th century, they fooled me, also because in the previous verse the town of Bergen-op-Zoom is mentioned...
HEMA is a modern sport in a modern world, and now more than ever it’s important to stand for safety and inclusivity. Especially when whirling around big and scary swords 😅
Yeah. Now I was mostly focussing on Landsknechte here of course, but I did stumble on a few examples of how fight books have been politicised in Germany and that looks like it could be material enough for a whole other video. :P
I have already known that Wir sind des Geyers schwarzen haufen was used by Nazis, but putting this aside, damn this song always gave me chills. Very imaginative, dark columns of peasants revolt forces marching with war drums and humming songs filled with rage. The legacy of the peasant war is an interesting topic - reused by both communists and nazis. WW2 SS cavalry division had a name of Florian Geyer, and SS Panzergrenadier division had Götz von Berlichingen.
Well this was an interesting talk, I didn't know that many of those songs were modern songs with an old style rather than made on the period, reminds me of that "WW1 song" that was actually made after WW1. And as of your final reflection well... the Austrian painter also used the iron cross, does it mean I have to stop liking the Teutonic knights because they got their simbol stolen? of course not! it does not take away the history that came before it, otherwise Japan or India would had stopped using the swastika for buddhist symbols. Well at least I am glad said Austrian painter didn't demonize the double headed eagle.
Thanks for the comment. I don't really mean to say people need to stop using or liking certain thing because Nazis used them, but some things are more thoroughly connected with the ideology than others. Yet other things are difficult to reclaim because neonazis still use them to this day, meaning that if you use them you may end up being mistaken for one or at least help spread their reach. It's a difficult and messy topic, but I hope at least I managed to elaborate my point a bit better. :)
@@VirtualFechtschule oh hey, I didn't expect you to answer so quickly, but yeah I get your point, it's just knowing what you're getting into, some stigmas can't be easily removed after all... and I am happy to have talked to you.
GOD MY FAVOURITE ONE IS LITERALLY THE TRUEST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THANK YOU GOD, I'M SINGING WIR ZOGEN IN DAS FELD UNTIL I DIE!!! (Yes, my ex's had to deal with this...)
It has been quite a heartwarming surprise to see how overwhelmingly inclusive and healthy the HEMA community is, at least in our club, and seeing this video and its comments is only a reaffirmation of the sentiment. It is indeed extremely sad and, frankly, quite infuriating, to see "unsavory types" not only co-opting but even perverting these fascinating people, stories and art - be it Landsknechts', other staples of medieval warfare and life, or from Antiquity (looking at you, whitewashed figures of Mediterranean history)! So, thanks for making this video, which was both soothing and highly informative!
Thanks! I think it's all starts with romanticising a simplified version of history, in itself annoying but inocuous, but that makes it easier to use it for other ends. I personally enjoy history in all its confusing glory. The simultaneous otherness and familiarity of the past is useless for political ends and difficult to come to grips with, but it is what makes history cool. So I'm happy this video seems to help with this a bit. :)
15:32 that is a different interest And it has nothing to switch shtoricla past It doesn’t matter in itself. All people can always abuse hsitory at all times for the wrong ends (it doesn’t matter which peopel they are, what matters is what they do, and the issue is the ends are wrong not soemthing to do with ‘them’ necessarily) This is a fundamental misunderstanding of morality as a kind of symbolic inhibition in which you try to ‘catch’ everything to satisfy yourself that you aren’t ’accidentally doing soemthing licentious’. This doesn’t actually stop you from doing soemthing actually wrong in itself for one. It requires selective pleading and inconsistency to maintain itself- attempting applying it coherently would lead to seeing its incoherency, ie. untenable It comes from you not thinking through anything more than you already thought of
When I tell people that I practice the German school of historical fencing, particularly Liechtenauer through the writings of Sigmund ein Ringeck, it does make me a bit worried about people percieving me as some kind of neo-Nazi. When interacting with German history you just can't completely shake off that Nazi veneer which is understandable though a bit regrettable. We practice what I'd like to call "passive diversity" in our HEMA club, where we will tolerate absolutely anyone at the club, so long as you're not a dick, and we have also been a vocal supporter of the LGBTQIA+ community where we made our club-logo, a modern interpretation of der doppel-adler, in rainbow colours to show our attitude towards inclusivity. I believe this attitude has had a positive impact on the "vibe" of the club, so to speak, for many people who join tend to feel a very open and relaxed atmosphere. Which, according to some, wasn't what they expected from a martial-arts club. I do sometimes worry that the HEMA clubs studying German medieval fencing are particularly attractive for actual neo-nazi's joining. Showing a positive attitude towards the things they hate ought to be enough to at least keep the away from our hobby.
Yeah. If you run a HEMA club, you're going to attract neo-nazis. Thankfully, they're indeed easy to scare off. Diversity, a positive attitude in class, and some Fighters against Racism patches usually get the job done in my experience. Your examples sound like something that would keep the trash out as well. :)
Isn't it a bit weak to bow down to the woke mainstream, only because some of them could hate you? Placing rainbow symbols and antifa stickers everywhere, seems to me very political and exaggerated, like if I am interested in history I don't want to be exposed to leftwing propaganda at your club all the time.
I am a Viking fighting reenactor, you think Landsknechts has been coopted by sinister forces... Those are rookie numbers my friend, those are rookie numbers 😉
@@menoflowicz hehehe. It comes when it comes though. I need to have the time to really do some research on topics such as this one, so it may be a while unfortunately.
also the uninion of all german lands under one emperor was a very savory and very good cause. and we should not let the marginal use of something by some regime we do not like completely destroy that thing.
uhm i believe ein landsknecht bin ich von natur, is afaik, related to the Freikorps time, where ex soldiers and german students would join rather semi to illegal military formations, or even go to russia to fight there against the bolshevicks bc war is the only thing they knew at that time, at least i always seen it that way.
It's important to know about the origins of the songs we listen to. Sometimes, we may not be aware that they weren't written with the intention of being simple folk songs, and had hidden motivations behind it... we have to be really careful! Do you happen to know the origin of the songs "Die eisenfaust am lanzenschaft" and "Wo alle strassen enden"? I know that they're not authentic 16th century songs, but I'd like to know if they're safe songs EDIT: I've forgot to write the song i actually wanted to know! It's called "Trum! Trum! Terum tum tum!" and it's a "true" Landsknecht song unlike the others. If you have any information on these or one of those, it would be relly nice!
its a bit more important to examine the text instead being scared because a neonazi claims they were created by the nazis, similar to the whole hugo boss uniforms, wehrmacht or tanks the nazis claim credit for everything that was done by post ww1 germany that waas good ,making you believe the nazis created stuff and not the truth that they were political rats who took over the government and showered themselves with fake honor titles etc.
I know these songs are not authentic and that many new ones were created by the Nazis. I just do not care, so long as the lyrics themselves are not pregnant with chauvinist hate. They are fun and singable as fuck.
i question if the new ones were created by nazis.what i find weird is that nobody questions if the nazis just claim it was their idea and just stole it from somewhere. we shouldnt believe so much about nazi claims similar to the ss Tank brigades kill claims
If they did in the past, that's sort of to be expected. If they did it in the past and neonazis are still doing it... Well... You may have a bit of a problem on your hands.
@@VirtualFechtschule Clutch harder. It’s not a dire scenario. Classic terminally online pearl clutching. The idea that a super fringe group is somehow to be worried about because they happen to like your hobby-horse is ridiculous. Next tell me about how the sky is falling. Right wingers make these same alarmist claims about the commies.
"All armi presente, al vostra singori" is not fake italian. It translates to "Present yourself in arms, all my sirs" and actually is the origin of the short word "alarm". Italian used to be the lingua franca of German troups for centuries an formed an italian dialect of it's own.
Yeah, I know, but it's not grammatically correct (which is already there in the original song) so I thought it was a fun joke. ;)
It would translate more accurately to "present yourself in your arms to your lords"
I thought the Latin word “alarum” (noise) was the source of “alarm”.
Hipster moustache & hair. Automatically untrustworthy.
What an excellent presentation! I know and love all those landsknecht and pseudo-landsknecht songs, and to see them as a reflection of German social processes was an eye-opener. Well done, and greetings from Poland.
Thank you!
With all those songs coming from other areas from German history I still think its amazing how "authentic" they still sound. Interesting moustache by the way!
If you read a few words of Early New High German (Frühneuhochdeutsch; I don’t mean this as a snarky remark, it’s really unusual for anyone to have read stuff like this!), you’ll see that they really don’t sound historical. If they were, their language would have to have been vastly modernised, which usually isn’t done to this extent. It really all sounds like 19th-century romanticism or folksy political songs from the 20s and 30s.
That’s why the first song actually sounds historical: it’s full of forms you wouldn’t expect, or at least only in dialect, and close to nobody* has been writing political songs in dialect for the last 200 years.
*) Of course many did, talking absolute numbers; I mean nobody in a sense of vast public reception and distribution.
I’ve looked up the original. As I’ve expected, even the (to German ears) odd-sounding version sung today already is a modernisation.
I'm very glad that you actually made this video! I certainly twisted things when it came to other songs such as Unser Liebe Fraue, and I just love those, they're so beautiful, but then I saw Wir Sind des Geyers Haufen being depicted as a national-socialist song some time ago, thanks for the video!
Happy that you enjoyed it!
When I check the German wikipedia it says, that the song was created around 1920 and only later used by the Nazis: de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wir_sind_des_Geyers_schwarzer_Haufen
Der Text des Liedes entstand um 1920 in Kreisen der Bündischen Jugend unter Verwendung von Textteilen des Gedichtes Ich bin der arme Kunrad von Heinrich von Reder (1885), die Melodie stammt von Fritz Sotke (1919).
The text of the song was written around 1920 in circles of the Bündische Jugend using parts of the text of the poem Ich bin der arme Kunrad by Heinrich von Reder (1885), the melody was written by Fritz Sotke (1919).
@@hildebrandgotenland4823 Yeah, I think I missed that, although the song databases mostly pointed to 1934. I'd still be a bit wary of this song though. Fritz Sotke seems to have been a rather willing NSDSP member and was active in the HJ for which he used he used his song writing talents quite dilligently.
@VirtualFechtschule I'm not german, but it surprised me that the song has such strong nazi roots. In my experience the people who romanticize the german peasants revolt are usually socialists or communists.
Anyways this was a great and informative video!
@@VirtualFechtschule Apparently this song was also used by the communists
"A la mi presente, al vostra signori!" is Landsknechtswelsch meaning
"To the arms, to the muster Gentlemen!
Landsknechtswelsch was a bastard combination of German and Italian.
What do you mean with landsknechtswelsch, exactly?
@@Pepe-pq3om?
The commonly accepted translation is actually not true and makes zero sense, I spent a week reconstructing it myself from old texts in lombardian and old italian as well as german (I am german myself). Basically, Landsknechts were trying to emulate the languages of the countries they fought in, but failed. That is why it is called Kauderwelsch because it actually makes no sense in any language. Anyway, the most reasonable "translation" (what they meant to say with it) is:
"I bow. I present myself/my arms to you my noble lords." which was probably a common thing they used to say as mercenaries and so they put it in their song
@@uncannysnake It seems to come down to how to interpret the "signori".
You could be right with it, referring to noble contractors rather than the Landsknechts themselves.
But as you mentioned, it is kauderwelsch and failed poorly. So maybe even at the time, few could make sense of it.
Imo, if this phrase was not chosen randomly just to fit in the melody, it must have been a pretty common thing to say among the Landsknechts.
If that is the case, given the common resentment against nobility in general, I personally cannot imagine such a servile tone from a Landsknechtssong.
@@brunobrunani4975Yeah the servile tone seems odd (however one cannot discount irony). My main anchorpoint is the wiktionary article for "stramp" which is friulian (so very fitting) and judging from it's ascendancy it means something like "slanted". Strampede mi, "I am slanted." So with that, who else would a Landsknecht bow to? I just cannot see how it could mean an address to a fellow mercenary
Interesting how the algorithm has lead me down a tunnel of associated topics, from "oh that sword looks neat", to such a specific topic, but this was a very well presented video I have to say.
Personally I do not see the use of these songs by “politically alligned people” as a problem.
All these songs mention some kind of struggle that could be perceived as class struggle. Making it favourable by lefties, but also the idea of duty which attracts the right.
I would argue it’s what makes these songs so great, everyone can relate in some way.
My favourite is landsknecht von natur, I feel as for me, with some medical issues which will likely last my entire life, but wanting to be a military man, it just touches me.
The end makes me tear up, if only I could thank god that way.
I greatly appreciate the explanation of these songs in Englisch. I'm always trying to listen to more German music to learn the language better but get afraid of what the lyrics might be saying. It's extremely important to know the culture and history around this music. This might not be related to the channel's theme but could you do a German genre over view of music. Alot of the post war punk sounds awesome but I'm worried it might also be pro-communism or Neo-Nazi. I just want to jam out to German music without the politics hahaha. Amazing video
Thanks!
I am not a reenactor, but I am active in a very closely adjacent field (LARP, but not important for this point). And I have for a very long time enjoyed Landsknecht songs, singing them as well in a group etc. The thing is, as you have rightly pointed out that those songs have a complicated and fascinating history, it is sadly very common to be lumped in with either political belief system by those either uninformed or, much worse, half informed... or simply strong believers.
We have thus decided to ditch those songs all together. Because we are there to have fun, NOT to have a political debate. Should I ever find myself in a situation where I talk about it, I will send the other person to this video, not only because you can explain it better than me, but also because of the fabulous beard :)
Thanks! Though perhaps I should clarify that I'm not advocating for completely ditching Landsknecht songs. Some should probably just be left alone, like Geyers schwarzen Hauffen. All the 16th century bits belong at a campfire perfectly well. Others, like Der Tod in Flandern may be anachronistic, but they're at heart anti-war songs so I don't see any inherent problems with them. But yeah, I do understand it takes the fun away when you constantly need to remind and argue with people which songs are okay and which not.
I also think ditching these songs completely is exaggerated and idk why you couldn't even enjoy songs from the 3rd Reich if they are good? The lyrics are not controversial and even in those times the tradition of beautiful soldier or love songs continued and would have continued under any government, so don't be that paranoid.
@@hildebrandgotenland4823 Well, nobody can force you to not sing certain songs. But they do signal some things. Have you ever considered why most renditions of Geyer's schwarzer Hauffen show footage of nazi soldiers? That song is politically loaded nowadays, unfortunately. So if you sing that one at a campfire, people might be questioning whether you're a neo-nazi or not. I mean, I understand that people still enjoy the song, but singing it out loud does send a certain message unfortunately.
Part of why I wanted to do this video is help people understand the background of these songs, precisely because it would be a shame if people just ditched all of them. Some songs are authentic, some just anachronistic, and some still send a political message nowadays, and you should be careful about how you choose to engage with them (if only because your intentions might be mistaken).
@@VirtualFechtschule I don't agree here either. We can shape what the song means for us today, we are not the slaves of the past. If good people use and spread it, it can lose any bad connotation and become normal. So instead of letting the Neonazis win, use these songs even more!
I mean look. If people sing and like these songs, have no historical education yet and they don't even get the idea it could be from NS times, it means the song itself seems to be harmless and no problem at all (lyricwise). Only if you push for "but it was from that evil time", the people start to ditch it, as someone in the comments already announced and I think that really shouldn't be your goal.
See even this famous piece is from Nazi Germany and everyone is still playing it:
th-cam.com/video/Yb6jULNu5ik/w-d-xo.html
And there are more of such examples.
You seriously should mention in such a video a distinction between really political propagandy songs and normal songs about historical events or even regular soldier songs. Even if a Landsknecht song has been made in the 30s, it is not automatically evil.
@@hildebrandgotenland4823 I respect that opinion, but I don't share your optimism about reclaiming everything the nazis ever took. That said, It could be done. As soon as it stops being a modern dog whistle, you can start that process. After all, it's a bit hard to start turning the swastika back into a normal symbol while all kinds of hate groups are still using it. Once they die out at some point (hopefully) over time it could be reclaimed I think.
The making of the video is good, but I have some objective criticism.
Firstly, when I check the German wikipedia site it says, that Wir sind des Geyers schwarzer Haufen was created around 1920 and only later used by the Nazis: de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wir_sind_des_Geyers_schwarzer_Haufen
"Der Text des Liedes entstand um 1920 in Kreisen der Bündischen Jugend unter Verwendung von Textteilen des Gedichtes Ich bin der arme Kunrad von Heinrich von Reder (1885), die Melodie stammt von Fritz Sotke (1919).
The text of the song was written around 1920 in circles of the Bündische Jugend using parts of the text of the poem Ich bin der arme Kunrad by Heinrich von Reder (1885), the melody was written by Fritz Sotke (1919)."
So marking it as a NS-song seems to be completely wrong and you should post a statement correcting that. A better example would have been "Das Leben ist ein Würfelspiel" which really is from 1935. Quite often, such songs were created by a single person in the 1920s, but only later published in the 1930s and are not originally from the 3rd Reich era really.
Secondly, I don't like this paranoid approach that anything from 1933 to 1945 is automatically evil and must be avoided.
The Germans always had a tradition of soldier songs, love songs or songs about former historical events as the battles of the Landsknechts for example. And obviously that tradition has also continued in the 3rd Reich, but it would have continued under any government, no matter which political agenda it had. So why shouldn't we be able to also enjoy these songs from that era? Even the German army continued to use them, because the lyrics are completely normal and innocent and the Germans in that time, now hold back your paranoia, were not all evil devils. I see no problem in singing Erika, Panzerlied or Wir lagen vor Madagaskar or Lili Marleen.
So I think there is nothing controversial about singing a normal song from 1935. Only if it is an explicit propaganda song, such as Deutschland erwache or the Horst-Wessel-Lied, I can understand to avoid them. But regular soldier songs? That should be no problem at all.
So I don't agree with your point here. There might be single cases, where real neonazis sing these songs because they were from that time, but usually people just enjoy them for their aesthetics. Have you reached out to the bigger traditional German music channels, that upload these songs before making your video at all? Such as Dr. Ludwig, Karl Sternau or Der Michel? They might have added some important information as well to all of that.
But else it was fascinating what you found out, even if you got some spelling mistakes, especially at Wir sind des (not den) Geyers schwarzer Haufen.
Also Elternhaus doesn't mean retirement home, but the house of your parents (You probably thought they mean Altenheim/ Altenhaus). But that's just nitpicking, your video is still great and your pronounciation pretty well! :)
I already said this elsewhere, but thanks for well argued and constructive criticism! :)
Maybe nobody should care what the Nazis have used the nazis used usually anything !
Seeing depictions on landsknechts on the march, which often looks rather chaotic and more like a crowd on the move than an army on the march... I never really believed in the Landsknecht marching songs. Their songs would be medieval ballads mostly and sung while relaxing or working in the camp.
The Florian Geyer song has been commandered by the radical left since atleast the 60s... In Denmark the translation is a stable of classical Socialist songs
To think the Keizer eating the whole of flinders has to do with WW1 makes me feel like this perception comes from an allied nation.
I believe this song has much
More to do with the 80’s war, the Habsburgs and the Netherlands.
Referencing berg op zoom, Gelders, and an actual Keizer that did have designs on Flanders’s.
There was no design on Belgium in WW1. Not to the extend you or the song talks about.
Cool how I’d already heard every single song that you showed here. I even guessed that “Wir sind des Geyers schwarzer Haufen” would be the song you’d use for the nazi era!
Proof that I’m a history nerd and a half lol. That and that I listen to German marching music way too much (if that’s even possible).
Greatswords are awesome. But Colossal swords are even cooler. Much wider blades and even heavier. Awesome video as always 👍
Thank you! :)
Colossal swords are not a historical term, but if you are referring to zweihander or spadone type swords, they're not really much wider (or not wider at all) compared to "normal" longswords, they are quit light and nimble for their size.
Man, this is a big topic that had me lost in thought for like twenty minutes before I slapped myself out of it. My historical interests are quite wide ranging, and I have to say that what you're seeing with Landsknect is seen in many different areas; not just for German things, but related to a loose set of ideologies/sympathies that align closely with N*zi (self censoring so youtube doesn't decide it hates me. Yikes.) beliefs. I'm not going to write an essay, but from the love of all things German ww1 and ww2, to the modern love of "vikings" - there's a stunning amount of...interesting beliefs forming a base of those interests, and a considerable amount of interconnectedness. Just to give an example: This modern loved narrative of goody "vikings" graping bad-guy inferior England is literally a post 1939 bit of N*zi propaganda. The actual revival of love for "vikings" and sadly, Germanic paganism (which has also unfortunately been co-opted by the nordic supremacist crowd) stems from 19th and early 20th century ethnonationalist types within the general Germanic world (from Scandinavia, Germany, England, and the rest of the anglosphere). We have a surreal situation where netflix show will simultaneously show a narrative founded on actual Nazi propaganda, and have a primary star be black for modern politics browny-points. Clown world does indeed exist.
Though I should say that, just because a subject has been touched by groups like the N*zis, it doesn't mean the subject/interest is the problem. The problem is that it can kind of corrupt a subject to the point where it becomes almost inherently suspect. I have to be honest, after decades of going deeply in ww2 history, whenever I hear someone talk glowingly about something ww2 Germany; my eyebrow raises. There's always questions of "why, of all things, have you decided to attach yourself to that, considering the context? Why are you repeating misleading or false information to make that thing seem great?"
That is well said. Some things have been claimed beyond reclaiming unfortunately. I think we can claim Landsknechts back, same as with most runes. Some symbols have been too tainted though, and even more so because they are still in use as dogwhistles by extreme groups. I often get itchy feelings when I see some people romanticise German ww2 armour or warships and then also be super into vikings and a romanticised version of the late middle ages and such. :P
@@VirtualFechtschule To mention general "older" Germanic things (like runes); one of the bits I find *really* odd is that so, so many people from places like England (and it's child countries), will go out of their way to grant all kinds of symbols to scandinavia, which ends up putting the ball in the court of the minority of questionable types. I imagine it's the same in the Netherlands. I imagine that if you said "rune" to most English speakers, they'd say "vikings, right?". If the people of countries that were actively opposed to the N*zis would even try to "claim" these things, or just be aware of them, the ball would be less in the court of modern nordic supremacist groups; essentially reforming the thing in question.
Just some thoughts I had recently.
Well not ‘founded on nazi propaganda’ but corresponding to certain titles made prominent at least among toehrs in it
If you believe it is possible to ‘co-opt’ an idea with the sense of not just taking it for yourself but taking it from others (but you can’t actually take an idea form others as such), let’s assume ur point- why is Netflix not carrying out a ‘detournement’ or copying the narratives from it - let’s assume that literally the case- and putting them ina. Different context.
Logically if you believe it was possible to ‘take away’ by Laing so- why not?
Your problem is that the coherent point sit idee actual *pragmstic* practical, and ideological etc. Features not just compare symbols.
Having certain attitudes to symbols or avoiding certain symbols won’t ‘save’
You in itsel
always possible to find
It’s stupid and brainless but it is simply a clipped understanding of morality how you and he describe wut
Maybe that Is not fake Italian but old Italian , " al mi presente , al vostra signori(a)" in modern Italian Is grammaticaly wrong but maybe It could be correct in old italians ( I don't dont know I'm only suppose). " al mi presente" could means "I'm present " ( the military salute) and " vostra signori(a)"Is actually Italian could means something like "your majesty"/"vostra maestà" but the difference Is that while you use "vostra maestà/your majesty" to address respectfully to the King ,if instead you Need to address to a lord ( signore in italian) you Say "vostra signoria"that means"my lord". In conclusion the Italian part of this beautifull Song could means: "present!( military salute) my lord" I'm Italian by the way. Another translation could be " I'm ready , at your service my lord" and this make sense because landsknecht was mercenaries Who fight also for Italians lords. We all know the landsknecht Weren't Italians but It's possibile they Learn a Little bit of Italian because they operate in italy, so I don't think Is completely fake Italian but Just a Little incorrect because italian It's not the native language of landsknecht but German
You're probably right, but I wanted to insert a small joke there. :P
funny enough in the 16th century the term " Empire of german Nation",(reich Teutscher nation) was also used for the holy roman empire.
source are the communications of the Strassburgs Government from 1550-55, just so you know
Danke
My husband wants to offer a bit of what he thinks is a better translation for one line here:
In "Des Geyers schwarzer Haufen" (he was distraught to find out that it was a nazi song, btw, he really likes it and now he can't anymore) "Spiess voran!" does not refer necessarily to the pike, but to the man carrying it. "Spiessbuerger" was a common term referring to the citizen militia of the medieval german cities. In the 20th century it was shortened to "Spiesser". And he thinks, since it is a nazi song, it is supposed to make a connection between the (then) modern soldier ("Landser") and the historical landsknecht ("Spiess"). That's his interpretation, anyway.
Besides that, being as close to the truth as possible is what he thinks is the best inoculation against political co-option. If people know that Landsknechte were first and foremost worried about dying, starving, marching, poverty and looting, they will feel something to be wrong when the Landsknechte get co-opted by any political spectrum, be it communism vs fascism or nationalist dreams or whatever might come up in the future. No Landsknecht was concerned about the worker class or the Volksgemeinschaft or had any notion of a nation. On the negative hand, that also means realising they were patriarchal, tyrannical, rapists, aggressive and sociopathic torturers by modern standards, and were rightly viewed as a bane in their time.
That's a really interesting idea, thanks! :)
Although, since recording and uploading I did stumble upon a slightly earlier origin for the song than I originally thought, but on the other hand, the author Fritz Sotke seems to have been a willing NSDAP member and it was mostly printed in HJ and SS songsbooks. That said, this particular song was never uncontested, since the German Communist Party (KPD) seems to have used it too. After the war, it unsurprisingly also became quite popular in the DDR. I guess just the violent and revolutionary themes appeal to any sort of totalitarian ideology.
I also felt quite bad after diving into this song and realising its origins. It's catchy and the peasant's revolt is just such an interesting bit of history. :(
As far as I know, it is no nazi song:
de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wir_sind_des_Geyers_schwarzer_Haufen
"The text of the song was written around 1920 in circles of the Bündische Jugend using parts of the text of the poem Ich bin der arme Kunrad by Heinrich von Reder (1885), the melody was written by Fritz Sotke (1919)."
@@hildebrandgotenland4823 It was part of the SS Liedgut, a pretty famous HJ anthem as well and most of its editions were made under NSDAP rule. Even if it was written earlier, it has been used so thoroughly that it unfortunately became one.
Yup I binged on all these during the Wagner short lived rebellion lol. Just to set the mood.
XD. Some things never change
some landsknecht songs have a historical first stanza, and the rest was added in the 19th century.
"Strampedemi" was also the title of a German songbook published in 1932. It contained more contemporary Landsknecht-themed songs, which may have possible spearheaded the wide propagation of Landsknecht songs during the NS era and what caused the umbrella term for a "Landsknecht song" to be literally any song that mentions them, or is in their style, depending on the author's stance. Similarly, Die Fanfare (1956) is another songbook that contains a literal chapter "Das Kalbfell klingt" with about 80% of it Landsknecht-themed songs. (Botho-Lucas-Chor probably got their songs and arrangements from it)
I made a songbook for our reenactment in Germany (early 17th century). I'm just researching in online-archives such as the "Volkslieder"-archive in Freiburg to find information about the historical background and sources of our songs. Besides it's a good idea to compare with more popular / wide spread songs of the reformation. The anti-catholic church details are often in Landsknecht/real 16th century songs such as "O Magdeburg du feste". Most of our chosen songs are from the later 16th century. It's surprising how few songs from the 17th century are... Great video by the way!
On the other hand afaik the anti-Lutheran fremde fink in land is modern?
Great content ! Entertaining and informative. Thank you.
You're welcome! :)
This is all good and well, but I couldn't help noticing that you only spoke about the 16th century before jumping to the modern reinterpretations of these songs from the 19th century on. So my question: what about the 17th and 18th centuries? Were they skipped because there's a lack of source material from that period? Of course I'm aware that as warfare evolved Landsknecht companies have gradually disappeared from the battlefield, but you'd expect that the closer you are to the original time period, there would be at least some sources that are, while not contemporary, at least not from 300 years after.
The best for the end 😅
*Great video* ❤
Thank you! :)
I’m going to listen to any landsknecht songs used by Nazis in spite of Nazis
Oh boy, a video about Landsknecht songs! I can't wait to hear a video about a series of historical songs that are politically neutral and hold no sort of underlining ideological biases whatsover, especially my favourite song Unser Liebe Fraue.
*Watches video*
Oh.
Oh no.
Hehehe. Although Unser Liebe Fraue is relatively okay. ;)
As practitioners of a hobby that serves to interpret the past (and myself as a professional who interprets the past on a daily basis), we have a responsibility to think clearly about what we are doing, plus why, how and for whom we are presenting it. Interpretation of the past is not a value-neutral exercise, and what we say can and will have consequences far beyond what we might imagine. Especially where primary documentation is scarce, past civilizations and historical eras have served as palimpsests, overwritten by subsequent peoples in later time periods again and again, and often without editorial disclosure - to the point where it can become really difficult to strip away the layers and understand what the original 'text' might be saying. The less that the general public understands of history, the easier it becomes to project our own hopes and fears on to the past, or even to co-opt the past for personal and political reasons. The consequences for this have been terrible in the past - and unfortunately, it's still happening right now, all over the world. I'm a bit of a theory wonk, so I really enjoy these sorts of discussions from time to time - but I also believe they are very important.
Very true. I dabble a bit in late iron-age Germanic/Gallic reenactment as well and that was... well... a bit of a minefield. It's a period that is foundational to several big nations' founding myths, there's only scant written sources and a material culture that is difficult to interpret. I ended up joining a Roman group, because they have a sensible idea of what historical reconstruction is and there's also no people who want to put swastikas on shields to trigger the libs. -_-
It is, unfortunately, a deeply rare occurrence to hear someone who delves into history, reenactment and such actually acknowledge that, no, this stuff does not exist in some sort of apolitical vacuum (leaving aside the fact that nothing is truly apolitical anyway). So it was quite refreshing to see that!
Also very interesting to see the general characterization of landscknecht in these songs are so oddly consistent, with the theme of them being broke (or soon to be broke) and kind of miserable seemingly surviving for centuries after they stopped existing.
Yeah, it's quite a serious constant, and actually historical record does support that Knechte would face some serious hardships on some campaigns (whereas others proved quite lucrative, of course)
Came a bit when you said "Landsknechte" 😄
Been hearing too much anglo-butchery of the word.
Oh also, as a german fencer, living historian and uh... regular historian, i gotta say: awesome vid! I was aware of the topic but you presented it flawlessly imo.
Also also: my bachelors thesis was transcribing a landsknecht provosses diary. And my masters was transcribing and working with late XVIth burghers inventories (yeah, they owned armouries and bathhouses 😁) thus i cant not do XVIth in living history anymore. Also since my local armourer specializes in XVIth armour and i got interested friends.
Will come back to you for a pike block melee when were ready ;)
Hehehe, the pronunciation in a lot of other videos is a huge pet peeve of mine. :P It also helps that the correct pronunciation sounds a lot more like my native Dutch of course. ;P
And as for the pike block, awesome! I'm really looking to get more people into the martial aspect of Landsknecht living history, so I'm really happy to hear you're into that! With a bit of luck all of that may lead to some cool events in coming years! :D
I am getting more and more into it yeah. Gonna go to a medieval faire today as a thrown together breughel-esque armed peasant early XVIth.
Oh and ive read your name in combination with the harnessfencing symposeum in Lauchröden. So i guess we will meet anyways at some point.
Also: Yes. If i have a whiskey or three i begin to understand Dutch. Had that conversation recently funnily enough. :D
I've been looking for a decent English translation of some of the landknechte diaries - like Peter Hagendorf, do you know of any having worked in that field?
@@KingTrouser There's an upcoming pretty comprehensive body of work on Dolnstein, but if you just want a translation you can read Mead-Skjelver's thesis. I don't know a lot of other translations though. I mostly work with German language sources for that reason.
I once see a comment that a Soviet military man was embarrassed because soldiers from the GDR sang the song about Florian Geyer.
I'm seeking to reenact what is sort of the predecessors to the Landsknecht, the Condotierri (of the late 14th Century). What you said is largely true, about different political movements altering it. The most notable Condotierri leader, John Hawkwood, is praised in many Italian towns and known as a sort of hero because of his humble background even to this day. In reality he likely played a part in the Papal Schism, he looted an allied town when the Pope didn't pay him, he killed countless unarmed civilians after they had surrendered, and betrayed the pope even after a long career of working for him.
Hey!
I really love your video!
I am searching for the fencing source (book??) Where the schielhau picture came from ( 13:10 ) could you elaborate on your source? Or so you know anything about that?
Thanks! It's from 'Ritterliche Waffenspiele: Schwert- u. Stockfechten, Bogenschießen, Armbrustschießen, Bau von Übungswaffen' by Wilhelm Fabricius. From what I could find, it was originally created for the Pfadfinder shortly before they were fully replaced with the Hitlerjugend after 1933. It was published in 1935 for the HJ and reprinted in 1936. I remember once seeing a photo of the HJ doing some sort of Fechtschule reenactment, but I couldn't find that one anywhere anymore, sadly.
@@VirtualFechtschule thanks! As I am from Austria and in a fencing club myself we are always battling the damage the nazis did to our culture and always working on educating people about things that came before and were so sadly corrupted and twisted and used by the Regime
Thank you very much for the info, I hope I can find it somewhere
@@mariagrundner5532 you're welcome, and good luck! :D
I actually would have been surprised if more than the first song had been historical (meaning: from the 16th century). If you read a bit of Early New High German and adjacent dialects - actually, no text from that age is really free from dialectal forms -, you’ll notice there are huge differences, even though a contemporary German will understand most of it, or everything if they’re aware of certain phenomena in grammar and phonetics typical of the age. I’m not saying that a 16th-c. song text couldn’t have been modernised … but the later songs just sound like German romanticism and (historicist) 20s/30s political songs. On the other hand, as I’ve expected, the first song as it is sung today (even though it still sounds odd to modern German ears) actually already _has_ been modernised. I’ve looked up the original online. The original 1540 print has:
_Wir zogen in das feld_
_do het wir weder seckl noch geld_
_Strompede mi_
_[rest of the chorus is the same]_
_Wir kam für sibendod_
_do het wir weder wein noch brot_
_Strompede mi_
_[…]_
_Wir kamen in friaul_
_do het wir allesambt vol maul_
_Strompede mi_
_[…]_
Amazingly well done video!
Nice video, will definitely share this to people I know. Also, not sure if anyone has said this before, but you look a lot like Markus Kruber from Warhammer Vermintide, mostly because your gorgeous mustache :)
Hehehe, I've seen some similar comments. ;)
Thank you! That's was exciting!
0:54 And? It is only awkward if you don’t know things work - you know how many songs where used by whom?
This sort of thing becomes revisionist when we can’t disprove what has remained via oral tradition. Sometimes we’ve got to go with what we’ve got, unless there is undeniable historical proof otherwise. As someone who has studied folk music for a long time, it’s not unlikely that many of the later romantic era songs are older, if altered or not. Lastly, if they are good landsknecht songs, sounding period accurate and performed accurately, they are landsknecht songs, even if not of the era. Let that spirit live on!
Hi there, 03:48 that drawing of Landsknecht has a lot of positional similarities to the Reply of the Zaporozhian Cossacks painting. Is it a homage?
This is a satirical drawing from the early 16th century, so it predates the Cossack painting I think. I'm not aware of any connection, but perhaps an art historian would know a bit more about this.
@@VirtualFechtschule Ah, thank you for the information, after I cleared my head I realized both are probably iterations of the last supper paintings, but that is cool too.
19th century landschneckt reenactment is both cursed and based at the same time damn
Music, like fencing is a cultural endevour to some degree and culture is always being used by all sides throughout history. So, it is up to us to full our culture (be it historical fencing, reenactment or music) with meaning that supports values of inclusivity and to maintain a clear stance against those that would use our culture for nefarious purposes. Thanks for an excellent video
You're welcome! I recently went to a Wardruna concert and they put it quite succintly: "what we do is not escapism or pretending to be vikings. We take something old and make it into something new. Many things should just stay in the past, but there's a few things that we used to have a lot of, but now have very little of. Singing is one of these things."
Superb! Viel Feind ', viel Ehr'.
Is the emperor eating Flanders not Charles V, who with the Peace of Kamerijk/Chambrai incorperated the whole of Flanders, a fiefdom that had been divided into a imperial part and a French part into the HRE?
Simply put: no.
More complicated answer:
Most verses from Unser Liebe Fraue are from the 19th and 20th centuries. They reflect issues and events from their own time, while embedding them in what is meant to sound like a historical song. It could, for someone at the time of WW1 be understood as an outward reference to Charles, while everyone would understand the subtext of the verse being about Wilhelm.
@@VirtualFechtschule Danke/Thank you.. I always thought it to be 16th century, they fooled me, also because in the previous verse the town of Bergen-op-Zoom is mentioned...
HEMA is a modern sport in a modern world, and now more than ever it’s important to stand for safety and inclusivity. Especially when whirling around big and scary swords 😅
Yeah. Now I was mostly focussing on Landsknechte here of course, but I did stumble on a few examples of how fight books have been politicised in Germany and that looks like it could be material enough for a whole other video. :P
Awesome, thank you very much!
I have already known that Wir sind des Geyers schwarzen haufen was used by Nazis, but putting this aside, damn this song always gave me chills. Very imaginative, dark columns of peasants revolt forces marching with war drums and humming songs filled with rage. The legacy of the peasant war is an interesting topic - reused by both communists and nazis. WW2 SS cavalry division had a name of Florian Geyer, and SS Panzergrenadier division had Götz von Berlichingen.
Geyers schwarzen haufen hade a connection to the Der arme Kunrad from the 19.century as well!
Great video. Thanks!
"wollen mit Tyrannen raufen" means "want to scuffle with tyrants". It DOESN'T mean "to root out".
Well this was an interesting talk, I didn't know that many of those songs were modern songs with an old style rather than made on the period, reminds me of that "WW1 song" that was actually made after WW1.
And as of your final reflection well... the Austrian painter also used the iron cross, does it mean I have to stop liking the Teutonic knights because they got their simbol stolen? of course not! it does not take away the history that came before it, otherwise Japan or India would had stopped using the swastika for buddhist symbols. Well at least I am glad said Austrian painter didn't demonize the double headed eagle.
Thanks for the comment. I don't really mean to say people need to stop using or liking certain thing because Nazis used them, but some things are more thoroughly connected with the ideology than others. Yet other things are difficult to reclaim because neonazis still use them to this day, meaning that if you use them you may end up being mistaken for one or at least help spread their reach. It's a difficult and messy topic, but I hope at least I managed to elaborate my point a bit better. :)
@@VirtualFechtschule oh hey, I didn't expect you to answer so quickly, but yeah I get your point, it's just knowing what you're getting into, some stigmas can't be easily removed after all... and I am happy to have talked to you.
@@VirtualFechtschule we should reclaim the old symbols instead of throwing them away just because some skinheads claim them
GOD MY FAVOURITE ONE IS LITERALLY THE TRUEST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THANK YOU GOD, I'M SINGING WIR ZOGEN IN DAS FELD UNTIL I DIE!!!
(Yes, my ex's had to deal with this...)
It has been quite a heartwarming surprise to see how overwhelmingly inclusive and healthy the HEMA community is, at least in our club, and seeing this video and its comments is only a reaffirmation of the sentiment.
It is indeed extremely sad and, frankly, quite infuriating, to see "unsavory types" not only co-opting but even perverting these fascinating people, stories and art - be it Landsknechts', other staples of medieval warfare and life, or from Antiquity (looking at you, whitewashed figures of Mediterranean history)!
So, thanks for making this video, which was both soothing and highly informative!
Thanks! I think it's all starts with romanticising a simplified version of history, in itself annoying but inocuous, but that makes it easier to use it for other ends. I personally enjoy history in all its confusing glory. The simultaneous otherness and familiarity of the past is useless for political ends and difficult to come to grips with, but it is what makes history cool. So I'm happy this video seems to help with this a bit. :)
0:58 So, what?
15:32 that is a different interest
And it has nothing to switch shtoricla past
It doesn’t matter in itself.
All people can always abuse hsitory at all times for the wrong ends (it doesn’t matter which peopel they are, what matters is what they do, and the issue is the ends are wrong not soemthing to do with ‘them’ necessarily)
This is a fundamental misunderstanding of morality as a kind of symbolic inhibition in which you try to ‘catch’ everything to satisfy yourself that you aren’t ’accidentally doing soemthing licentious’.
This doesn’t actually stop you from doing soemthing actually wrong in itself for one.
It requires selective pleading and inconsistency to maintain itself- attempting applying it coherently would lead to seeing its incoherency, ie. untenable
It comes from you not thinking through anything more than you already thought of
oh, I didn't see that you had made a whole video about this before I asked which songs were real....
No worries! :)
good recherche. so it is as i allways thought..hard to find some facts in the internet.
Well done.
When I tell people that I practice the German school of historical fencing, particularly Liechtenauer through the writings of Sigmund ein Ringeck, it does make me a bit worried about people percieving me as some kind of neo-Nazi. When interacting with German history you just can't completely shake off that Nazi veneer which is understandable though a bit regrettable.
We practice what I'd like to call "passive diversity" in our HEMA club, where we will tolerate absolutely anyone at the club, so long as you're not a dick, and we have also been a vocal supporter of the LGBTQIA+ community where we made our club-logo, a modern interpretation of der doppel-adler, in rainbow colours to show our attitude towards inclusivity. I believe this attitude has had a positive impact on the "vibe" of the club, so to speak, for many people who join tend to feel a very open and relaxed atmosphere. Which, according to some, wasn't what they expected from a martial-arts club.
I do sometimes worry that the HEMA clubs studying German medieval fencing are particularly attractive for actual neo-nazi's joining. Showing a positive attitude towards the things they hate ought to be enough to at least keep the away from our hobby.
Yeah. If you run a HEMA club, you're going to attract neo-nazis. Thankfully, they're indeed easy to scare off. Diversity, a positive attitude in class, and some Fighters against Racism patches usually get the job done in my experience. Your examples sound like something that would keep the trash out as well. :)
Isn't it a bit weak to bow down to the woke mainstream, only because some of them could hate you? Placing rainbow symbols and antifa stickers everywhere, seems to me very political and exaggerated, like if I am interested in history I don't want to be exposed to leftwing propaganda at your club all the time.
I am a Viking fighting reenactor, you think Landsknechts has been coopted by sinister forces...
Those are rookie numbers my friend, those are rookie numbers 😉
What about "Reveilles vous picards", should it not also count as landsknechts' song? It even has the word "lansquenets" in it ;)
It is in a way, but it didn't really fit in the German history narrative. ;P That said, the song does deserve its own deep dive. :D
@@VirtualFechtschule waiting for this dive ;)
@@menoflowicz hehehe. It comes when it comes though. I need to have the time to really do some research on topics such as this one, so it may be a while unfortunately.
also the uninion of all german lands under one emperor was a very savory and very good cause.
and we should not let the marginal use of something by some regime we do not like completely destroy that thing.
uhm i believe ein landsknecht bin ich von natur, is afaik, related to the Freikorps time, where ex soldiers and german students would join rather semi to illegal military formations, or even go to russia to fight there against the bolshevicks bc war is the only thing they knew at that time, at least i always seen it that way.
It's important to know about the origins of the songs we listen to. Sometimes, we may not be aware that they weren't written with the intention of being simple folk songs, and had hidden motivations behind it... we have to be really careful!
Do you happen to know the origin of the songs "Die eisenfaust am lanzenschaft" and "Wo alle strassen enden"? I know that they're not authentic 16th century songs, but I'd like to know if they're safe songs
EDIT: I've forgot to write the song i actually wanted to know! It's called "Trum! Trum! Terum tum tum!" and it's a "true" Landsknecht song unlike the others. If you have any information on these or one of those, it would be relly nice!
Wasn't "Wo alle strassen enden" a song about WW1 made in the 60's?
Been a long time but I believe that's what I read before.
its a bit more important to examine the text instead being scared because a neonazi claims they were created by the nazis, similar to the whole hugo boss uniforms, wehrmacht or tanks the nazis claim credit for everything that was done by post ww1 germany that waas good ,making you believe the nazis created stuff and not the truth that they were political rats who took over the government and showered themselves with fake honor titles etc.
I know these songs are not authentic and that many new ones were created by the Nazis.
I just do not care, so long as the lyrics themselves are not pregnant with chauvinist hate. They are fun and singable as fuck.
i question if the new ones were created by nazis.what i find weird is that nobody questions if the nazis just claim it was their idea and just stole it from somewhere. we shouldnt believe so much about nazi claims similar to the ss Tank brigades kill claims
15:21
Me looking at my interests of Crusader history and 40K: can relate
“Nazis might have used the song you like!” Oh no….how horrible. Such pearl clutching.
If they did in the past, that's sort of to be expected. If they did it in the past and neonazis are still doing it... Well... You may have a bit of a problem on your hands.
@@VirtualFechtschule Clutch harder. It’s not a dire scenario. Classic terminally online pearl clutching. The idea that a super fringe group is somehow to be worried about because they happen to like your hobby-horse is ridiculous. Next tell me about how the sky is falling. Right wingers make these same alarmist claims about the commies.
pretty sure thats fake spanish, not italian
Its old/Fake Italian. The Landsknechte where often used there.