What I really enjoy about your videos is that you convey "what it feels like" and how it actually affects the car on track. The science of springs, damping, suspension geometry is so complex its often so much better to concentrate on 'what does this change do to the car on track'. You guys explaining what the effects of each change is the most helpful thing for most racers including myself, so thank you and keep it up!
something that really helped me understand the way the car works is start taking stuff of the car. take the shocks off, hold it at about ride height and start twisting/rotating the car. lay the chassis on the ground and start twisting the tires/wheels side to side and notice if your chassis wants to lift off the ground. place a tire or 2 under the chassis so it sits closer to ride height and do the same. does the chassis want to lift up or get sucked down (roll center)? with the car sitting ready to run twist the chassis and imitate the forces that happen in turns, notice what happens to your camber and toe. just start physically manipulating your car with your hands and notices what effects what. its really helps give a better picture.
17:00 a harder vs softer spring has to offer the same force at rideheight for both to be the same. A harder spring is compressed less, a softer spring more to achieve this. If the springs are very long and both compressed a lot even at full droop the difference in lifting the car is not so noticable. If the hard spring is basically fully extended at droop, and softer one compressed a lot, it becomes more noticable. A harder shorter spring will lift the car less above ride height than a softer longer spring.
engineering explaned talked about springs as a softerspring as you say it compress more to get the car in rideheight and that extra compression compared to a harder spring gives that extra compression as more spring lenght to use for droop then a harder spring that dont compress the same eaven tho them both carry the same weight as the car got unchange weight and just got a spring change.
Interesting when you talk about wet running I have found similar with my touring car. When running a stiffer suspension setup closer to a dry setup it's working much better than a soft setup where the car rolls around a lot, the car is also handles more predictable. One change I do for wet running is more chassis flex which for a touring car is done by changing the top deck to a more flexy option
The knowledge in these videos is priceless, the problem is that people always think they already know… i know quite a bit about shocks and springs from my own messing around… and i try to do the best i can with remembering all aspects.. down to how well i was feeling connected to the car.. sometimes it just drives bad cause your driving bad…. But this jazz with putting on stiffer fronts to reduce some rear squat, makes crazy sense once you think about it… I find if your REALLY in tune with your car and ran it like that for a long time, sometimes small adjustments like that do have unexpected results… obviously sometimes explainable, but sometimes your just in awe at how it did the opposite of what you’d expect..
its the dunner kruger effect of people reading a book and think they know everything of that subject, i tend to think also that im god at springs and chassie tuning but i have to admit i dont know everything and got in situations of running out of talent and admit i got wrong or my theories got messed up as doing the opposite had a better desired effect on the car then i thought. in that scenario it time to learn something new and what had caus and effect of the cars behaviour that i had wrong.
This video is brilliant. I had always envisgaed that more roll meant faster weight transfer, and hence more grip which I never really could understand given faster weight transfer would mean less grip on one tire. Learning that less roll is actually faster weight transfer was a lightbulb moment!
- A softer spring transfers more weight but less energy into the tire usually equaling less pressure to the tire. - think just like more anti-squat adds more initial pressure to the tire but reduces transfer to the tire (this usually gives more grip) - or anti-roll (sway bars) add more initial pressure to the tire (usually as more grip) - (hint) with (stiffer spring/anti-squat/sway bars) you will have more initial grip but if it fall off at the end of the turn... if adding weight to the front fixes it (you probably don't have enough pressure on the tire) and weight is not the best way to fix this it more of a bandaid.
Thats all relitave to where your at already… theres a point where your traction wont transfer enough weight to begin the suspention to work… and theres a point where going softer isnt going to be ABLE to transfer more weight…. And the same feeling starts to happen if you have a stiff spring in front, and soft out rear… if you go too far, it starts to act backwards..
@@Synic08 yep, to soft and the car rolls past the optimum point of tirres and suspension gometry giving the optimum grip. a propper tuned suspension gives the car optimum roll and forces on arms and camber links and loads on the spring to push down the tires to make them gain friction and grip. suspension is wierd in that to hard dont alow the car to work to the optimum part of the tires grip and to soft might cause the car to roll to much and camber gain or camber loss makes the car roll past the tires optimum grip angle.
I find the softer springs doesnt add side bite (when done all around) nearly as much as dropping a weight in oil all around… its more initial steering i think, more than overall maximum steer…
just a guess but if you gain sidebite when using softer oil i think you may be in a situation of having to hard oil from the start and the softer oil is making the suspension work more efficient in that the camber links and arms get more force to react with the chassie and loading up the springs with side force then a to stiff suspension that dont whant to move. a to soft suspension the other hand makes the car roll to much and rolling past the point of the tires and links otimum angle and thus produce less grip. hope i dont make it to complicated to undertand how i thought.
Any thoughts on calculating suspension frequencies as a means to select springs? I've been experimenting with this lately and it has taken some of the guess work out of picking springs or predicting how much of an impact different springs will have.
i have compared the AE v2 and the 12mm WS springs, and i found the WS oness are super inconsistent. firm at the start of compressing it but all of a sudden goes super soft at more compression. i love the v2 springs, have usedthem since they released
First of all, i wish all the best for hallbrothers web site. I have a question: you said that a lighter spring on the rear will push more on the chassis on corner entry than a harder one. And if i have understood well, it depends basically by the energy stored on preload making ride high. But this will move inside the range of downstop. So the lighter spring will use more stroke during suspension movement?
I think you got it right. If you didn’t, we both got it wrong. A stiffer spring will push up harder than a softer one when you compress the suspension by X mm. But the flipside is that when the chassis raises up, the stiff spring weakens the pushing up faster than the soft one. It’s funny because the idea of a softer spring pushing the chassis higher is counter-intuitive but that’s how it works. With equal amounts of acceleration and deceleration, and without hitting full droop or full compression, the harder spring allows less movement up or down. Allowing less movement down is the obvious thing we all know but the effect going both ways is important to understand.
My car is getting a lot of pop in the rear end, causing it to do a front flip off of certain jumps at almost any speed, would I change the spring or the oil to try to help?
yes i must say as i had got the same problem of having a to soft setting on rear dampers and that made the car pop or donkey kick as i say down some miner bumps on track due to what i suspect is the bump loading up the springs tension over the bump and the dampers dont got not enough damping on the droop stroke after the bump and that makes the car pop up with the rear similar to compressing a spring between the fingers and when it by accident flicking it away rather then having controll over it and extend the force of the compressed spring in a controlled manner. its just my theory of it and i have to admit if that is a flawed theory im wrong, but for now that is what i think is happening.
What I really enjoy about your videos is that you convey "what it feels like" and how it actually affects the car on track.
The science of springs, damping, suspension geometry is so complex its often so much better to concentrate on 'what does this change do to the car on track'.
You guys explaining what the effects of each change is the most helpful thing for most racers including myself, so thank you and keep it up!
something that really helped me understand the way the car works is start taking stuff of the car. take the shocks off, hold it at about ride height and start twisting/rotating the car. lay the chassis on the ground and start twisting the tires/wheels side to side and notice if your chassis wants to lift off the ground. place a tire or 2 under the chassis so it sits closer to ride height and do the same. does the chassis want to lift up or get sucked down (roll center)? with the car sitting ready to run twist the chassis and imitate the forces that happen in turns, notice what happens to your camber and toe. just start physically manipulating your car with your hands and notices what effects what. its really helps give a better picture.
17:00 a harder vs softer spring has to offer the same force at rideheight for both to be the same. A harder spring is compressed less, a softer spring more to achieve this. If the springs are very long and both compressed a lot even at full droop the difference in lifting the car is not so noticable. If the hard spring is basically fully extended at droop, and softer one compressed a lot, it becomes more noticable. A harder shorter spring will lift the car less above ride height than a softer longer spring.
engineering explaned talked about springs as a softerspring as you say it compress more to get the car in rideheight and that extra compression compared to a harder spring gives that extra compression as more spring lenght to use for droop then a harder spring that dont compress the same eaven tho them both carry the same weight as the car got unchange weight and just got a spring change.
Interesting when you talk about wet running I have found similar with my touring car. When running a stiffer suspension setup closer to a dry setup it's working much better than a soft setup where the car rolls around a lot, the car is also handles more predictable. One change I do for wet running is more chassis flex which for a touring car is done by changing the top deck to a more flexy option
The knowledge in these videos is priceless, the problem is that people always think they already know… i know quite a bit about shocks and springs from my own messing around… and i try to do the best i can with remembering all aspects.. down to how well i was feeling connected to the car.. sometimes it just drives bad cause your driving bad…. But this jazz with putting on stiffer fronts to reduce some rear squat, makes crazy sense once you think about it…
I find if your REALLY in tune with your car and ran it like that for a long time, sometimes small adjustments like that do have unexpected results… obviously sometimes explainable, but sometimes your just in awe at how it did the opposite of what you’d expect..
its the dunner kruger effect of people reading a book and think they know everything of that subject, i tend to think also that im god at springs and chassie tuning but i have to admit i dont know everything and got in situations of running out of talent and admit i got wrong or my theories got messed up as doing the opposite had a better desired effect on the car then i thought.
in that scenario it time to learn something new and what had caus and effect of the cars behaviour that i had wrong.
This video is brilliant. I had always envisgaed that more roll meant faster weight transfer, and hence more grip which I never really could understand given faster weight transfer would mean less grip on one tire. Learning that less roll is actually faster weight transfer was a lightbulb moment!
more roll means more weight transfer means more grip to and extent. i believe his video about roll bars covers this well.
Thanks for sharing
Thank you, great video and explanation :D
- A softer spring transfers more weight but less energy into the tire usually equaling less pressure to the tire.
- think just like more anti-squat adds more initial pressure to the tire but reduces transfer to the tire (this usually gives more grip)
- or anti-roll (sway bars) add more initial pressure to the tire (usually as more grip)
- (hint) with (stiffer spring/anti-squat/sway bars) you will have more initial grip but if it fall off at the end of the turn... if adding weight to the front fixes it (you probably don't have enough pressure on the tire) and weight is not the best way to fix this it more of a bandaid.
Thats all relitave to where your at already… theres a point where your traction wont transfer enough weight to begin the suspention to work… and theres a point where going softer isnt going to be ABLE to transfer more weight…. And the same feeling starts to happen if you have a stiff spring in front, and soft out rear… if you go too far, it starts to act backwards..
@@Synic08 yep, to soft and the car rolls past the optimum point of tirres and suspension gometry giving the optimum grip.
a propper tuned suspension gives the car optimum roll and forces on arms and camber links and loads on the spring to push down the tires to make them gain friction and grip.
suspension is wierd in that to hard dont alow the car to work to the optimum part of the tires grip and to soft might cause the car to roll to much and camber gain or camber loss makes the car roll past the tires optimum grip angle.
I find the softer springs doesnt add side bite (when done all around) nearly as much as dropping a weight in oil all around… its more initial steering i think, more than overall maximum steer…
just a guess but if you gain sidebite when using softer oil i think you may be in a situation of having to hard oil from the start and the softer oil is making the suspension work more efficient in that the camber links and arms get more force to react with the chassie and loading up the springs with side force then a to stiff suspension that dont whant to move.
a to soft suspension the other hand makes the car roll to much and rolling past the point of the tires and links otimum angle and thus produce less grip.
hope i dont make it to complicated to undertand how i thought.
Any thoughts on calculating suspension frequencies as a means to select springs? I've been experimenting with this lately and it has taken some of the guess work out of picking springs or predicting how much of an impact different springs will have.
Have you tried #willspeed springs (12 or 13mm)? How do you feel they compare to the AE v2 (12mm) or v3 (13mm)
i have compared the AE v2 and the 12mm WS springs, and i found the WS oness are super inconsistent. firm at the start of compressing it but all of a sudden goes super soft at more compression. i love the v2 springs, have usedthem since they released
First of all, i wish all the best for hallbrothers web site. I have a question: you said that a lighter spring on the rear will push more on the chassis on corner entry than a harder one. And if i have understood well, it depends basically by the energy stored on preload making ride high. But this will move inside the range of downstop. So the lighter spring will use more stroke during suspension movement?
I think you got it right. If you didn’t, we both got it wrong.
A stiffer spring will push up harder than a softer one when you compress the suspension by X mm. But the flipside is that when the chassis raises up, the stiff spring weakens the pushing up faster than the soft one.
It’s funny because the idea of a softer spring pushing the chassis higher is counter-intuitive but that’s how it works.
With equal amounts of acceleration and deceleration, and without hitting full droop or full compression, the harder spring allows less movement up or down. Allowing less movement down is the obvious thing we all know but the effect going both ways is important to understand.
Great video!
謝謝！
My car is getting a lot of pop in the rear end, causing it to do a front flip off of certain jumps at almost any speed, would I change the spring or the oil to try to help?
yes i must say as i had got the same problem of having a to soft setting on rear dampers and that made the car pop or donkey kick as i say down some miner bumps on track due to what i suspect is the bump loading up the springs tension over the bump and the dampers dont got not enough damping on the droop stroke after the bump and that makes the car pop up with the rear similar to compressing a spring between the fingers and when it by accident flicking it away rather then having controll over it and extend the force of the compressed spring in a controlled manner.
its just my theory of it and i have to admit if that is a flawed theory im wrong, but for now that is what i think is happening.
WOW, that website is awesome. It makes the whole process so easy. Many kudos to you guys on that.