A few points to be made here For a start, I've actually had waaaaaaay worse reliability on analogue snakes, stress on cables over time does cause issues believe it or not. I personally carry a bunch of 30 meter XLR cables as backups for channels, and I've definitely had to use them a good few times. Speaking of connector robustness, standard ethernet cables are robust enough for many datacenters and large businesses, they're most likely also robust enough for your router on-site. The most likely instance for your cable to go bad is during transport. It's not going to magically shatter mid-event if you stare at it wrong, it's protected within the cable box/doghouse at the back of the mixer. For backing up stageboxes, it's pointless for the most part. Stageboxes are a hell of a lot more simple than the mixing boards, which instead of being "little computers" are often actually full-on computers. Take Digico for example, they have a custom software running over full-on Microsoft Windows. Allen and Heath I-Live series were so, so unreliable purely because of the fact that they ran their software over a full version of Ubuntu Linux. A digital console is always much more of a failure point than a stage box. For 32ch desks, manufacturers often offer a choice of digital stagebox sizes. For example, with X32 and M32, you can buy the DL32/S32, which are 32ch digital stageboxes. If you want 16ch boxes, then buy DL16/S16. A UPS is also unnecessary, since if you lose power enough to kill a stagebox or desk, your amps are already long gone. No point in sweating that the stageboxes are still running when the speakers can't make noise. The most you'd need is a basic power conditioner. I don't know if you're aware how the daisy-chaining method works in terms of the science behind it, but I can assure you there's no need to put a switch there. The daisy-chained units aren't being processed by others, they simply relay the signal. The addition of the switch will add more latency than just daisy-chaining them the way the manufacturers designed them to be used. A rack shouldn't be an issue at all. Many "high end" analog stageboxes are in fact rack mounted, the more basic models are just a box on the end of the cable. Either way, if you really can't cough up the cash for a small budget rack, just use spare rack units in an amprack if you have them. If for some reason you really, really need to have your crossover at the FOH instead of setting it up beforehand or just running subs on aux sends, the majority of consoles can repatch channels to individual connectors of their local I/O. No need to run cable all the way back up and down. Crucially, you can send the output of the processor/crossover back into the desk and into dedicated outputs on the stagebox. Patching I/O works both ways around. Regardless, if you're at a show large enough that you absolutely have to be able to re-set the crossover during a show, and for some reason can't use aux sends, there's most likely a dedicated systems technician on hand. I'm also not sure why you "can't set delays at the stage". Most modern desks have the ability to be controlled remotely, so your aux sends for delay units can be set up directly from your phone, tablet or laptop. The same goes for the vast majority of modern DSP processors and crossovers, they're able to interface with a phone or laptop so you can walk around the entire venue and tune as you go. Comms is a whole other can of worms I'm not about to open in this comment. Bottom line: For community festivals and the majority of shows many of your subscribers (and you yourself) would be doing, Coachella levels of redundancy are unnecessary (even though the most important redundancy has been completely ignored: the console!!!!!! weakest link in most digital setups) It's no secret that analog has its benefits, which is why I still stock analog gear and use it for small shows. That said, the end result of a good digital setup is superior in so many ways that it makes no sense to do it any other way for the vast majority of shows now.
Great comments. We still use analog for most larger multi-band shows, but will usually use digital for smaller ones. Every event we do, we carry a backup console, though I don't think this was ever mentioned on any of our videos. We try to use the best tool for the job.
@@stageleftaudio to be fair, I should have mentioned I do still use analogue here and there myself. I find it pretty handy for much smaller, budget friendly systems. My favorite use for it right now is a little Soundcraft 16 channel in a rack with a few budget wireless mics and some cheap 4 way compresser/limiter units from Behringer. It works great, very handy for when a client just doesn't have the budget or requirement for anything bigger. Also great for DJ events, since I only need like 4 or 5 channels for those
This video is directly for presonus users. Those in the m/x32 systems will not be using a network switch. Also crossover at FOH? Use a newer driverack at stage and access all features with an iPad or laptop, then lock it out so any band techs can’t adjust it. For aux fed subs etc do your processing on a matrix. In fact use L/R Sub and FF on your matrix. Typically I’ll use 2 cat5e Ethernet and a DMX line and power. Anyway, interesting video.
Hot digity.... I was going to come in here and make all kinds of comments.... and then found all of them were already here. :) I don't disagree there is a place for analog, but I have been running full digital for all kinds of shows large and small for years. I do have an analog rig for some outdoor things that consist of less than 3 inputs and 2 outputs, but that's it. For anything else, I've left analog long behind. I think the biggest advantage in digital is the patching and sends. Something not in the right plug? Most cases, I can reroute and keep going. I can save scenes and presets and run multiple bands at the touch of a button. Also, I have some mobile application that depend on fast setup and teardown, and digital has always proven to be faster and easier to get up and running. I even have one kit that is 100% wireless and all I have to do is give power to the rack and the mains, grab an iPad, and we are running. We have backup cables just in case, but never had to use them. Good breakdown, Noodles.
Disappointing. Have always enjoyed your videos. This one I actually stopped at 12:57 mark. Couldn’t take the negativity anymore against digital snakes. Most that watch your videos I am sure could use a digital snake to its advantage and are not running sound for a big event. Spare (you forgot to mention “shielded” CAt5e) cable(s) a must. If running sound at this level you would have a digital monitor board along with FOH which will give you options if something failed to run from one board with an iPAD remotely. If a digital snake failed you can use the monitor board as your connection for the analog inputs and outputs. Network switches and crossover out front over kill for your you tube audience. Looking forward to your next video being positive with great information again.
Just as a little side note: the shielding on the Cat5 cable can vary in necessity from desk to desk. I believe it was the Behringer X32 that didn't work properly with the shielding, causing huge spontaneous pops and bangs. Crossover out front, completely unnecessary in today's world. A bog-standard DBX can be controlled from a laptop or phone, and converting XLR to Cat5 and back is just a really weird way of doing things (especially just after he mentions that you can repatch all your local console I/O, wouldn't you just send the crossover back into a stereo channel and patch it to outputs on the stagebox?) He's also completely forgotten that the biggest point of failure in a digital system is the console itself, which seems to be the only thing he hasn't made redundant (makes no sense, even a monitor console could be used for redundancy) I think he's way overshot the audience this time around. Also other things I've seen in his videos make me pretty concerned safety-wise, like the cheap line array towers that are pretty sketchy indoors, let alone outdoors sitting on the stage without guy lines or proper tie downs
Thank you for your comments. The video was certainly not intended to be negative toward digital snakes (or digital solutions)! The content was to show the possibilities of what may be needed as a sound provided, but more importantly to show there could be a lot more to putting together a digital solution. I try to cover a wide aspect of running sound in our videos. Hopefully our future content will prove to be more positive.
@@stageleftaudio I think your video wasn’t negative per say as ill informed as to how this is done at certain levels... you were trying to explain at the best of your ability, and it is incorrect how “things are done”..now
@@stageleftaudio it doesn’t change the fact that there is no appreciable latency with your system, (under .5 ms) the crossover function (at your level or production) can be more than handled by keeping it at the stage, and comms, lighting control can be handled with either one more cat5 - 4x xlr breakout. Or two xlr cables... your choice
I see where you're coming from. What I do is, I use my digital mixing console with an analog 32/8 snake. So I have the benefit of using less outboard for effects etc. but still the flexibility for drive racks and delays and so on....
The problem with this method is that more and more digital consoles have less physical inputs (I.e. the A&H Avantis with only 12 inputs, the Wing with 8 inputs)
I cannot agree to your vid, although I love your content all the time. But this vid seems more like a statement "I do not like digital" than a real objective discussion about analogue / digital. 1. You overcomplicated the digital setup with the xover outboard - all digital consoles I know have the opportunity to do this with matrixes - no need for an xover outboard 2. You do not necessarily need a switch to avoid latencies (as mentioned already from somebody else here in the comments). This is in nowadays no real problem 3. You ignore that you can have a very lean digital setup and manage a huge channel count with it - especially talking about festivals with maybe several bands, 32 inputs are nothing. With a digital setup and the currently available consoles you can handle 48 - 64 input channels without any problem - for this channel count you would need huge analogue consoles at an unbelievable price range - and with huge footprint 4. Talking about 48 input channels and more - you would need an outboard for effects that would need a whole minivan to be transported 5. You do not mention that with an analogue stagebox with 32 channels you need subcores (snakes) on the stage. Additional cabeling etc. With the digital stageboxes you can have stage boxes with 8 or 16 inputs and place them directly there where you need them on the stage - and not all together in a rack. Meaning you have no need for additional subsnakes on the stage. 6. Talking about backup - you have to consider that you also need a backup for your console - talking here about 46 - 60 input channels this is going to be very expensive 7. The solution analogue snake + digital console is going to fade out cause more and more digital consoles do not have enough physical input channels any more So my point is: 1. You do not need the "extra" backup stagebox - you can use this wisely and increase your channel count - and safe additional subsnakes on the stage 2. You do not need the complicated solution concerning xover outboard 3. You might need a switch - depends on your setup, but not with all solutions 4. Latency is absolutely no big issue in nowadays digital networks (like Dante) 5. You definitely need a backup for the tactical cable from the FOH to the stage
Many good points. Using Powersoft or Labgruppen amps with internal processors has become essential for what we do. Control from a laptop at FOH. Total digital now. I have a beautiful 40 x 8 split analog snake for sale!
I have considerable experience with all strata of digital audio as a provider and your video has many points that are just wrong. There are no processors in digital stage boxes, hopefully just D to A converters and some form of FPGAs, so no need for UPS. Use a UPS on your console. The stage boxes if properly designed do not create enough latency to cause more than .02 ms of delay barely noticeable. Lake controller solves your crossover dilema. Digi
Although everything here is theoretically correct, I have to say that I disagree with most of it. I've been watching a lot of your videos for fun. And everytime I have been thinking "Why don't they just get a digital stagebox and a cat cable" It would be so much easier. I do around 100 shows here in Denmark each year, and for the last 15 years I have been running just a digital console (LS9 and now a QL5), 2 x 16/8 boxes and a single ethernet with power strapped to it. Never had a failure. No switch, no UPS, no extra ethernet (although I do carry a spare in my van). All crossover is done in amps. Fills, delays etc are done in the desk via matrix outs. A digital setup does cost more. But ohhh... The advantages. Not lugging around a big analog cable, total recall on everything in the desk, and standing right next to musicians with an ipad on stage and mixing their monitor wedges during soundcheck. Wouldn't trade it for the world. Most desks today stay below 0,5 ms of delay. I run inearmonitors for most of my bands and everybody are as happy as they can be. We regularly jump right into a festival show with only a 2 min linecheck.
Thank you for the comment. The basis of the video was to show what could potentially be involved with moving to a full digital solution. Though, we know that not everyone needs (or wants) redundancy, and will probably not want a UPS or even racks to keep the equipment "safe". Some bands I mix for (on their gear) use full digital setups; they are great.
We have a full blown Behringer X-32 console at our church,connected to an X-32 rack mixer at the stage. The two are connected using Cat 6 STP cable. Much cheaper than ethercon cables and just as effective since nothing ever gets disconnected. We have some microphones connected to the main console through a 24 channel snake that was in place with our analog system. Other microphones and all monitor outputs are connected to the. X-32 rack. The monitor outs consist of floor wedges for the choir, a hot spot for the pianist, and in ear for the soloists. Latency has never been an issue. We could have used a digital stage box just as easily, but we had the X-32 rack.
I have noticed more and more setups where the FOH mixer is either on stage or just off the stage and FOH mix is done with an iPad or other tablet computer. In those applications, the X-32 rack and a DL16 stage box would be all that is needed. We opted for the full desk because our sound person was more comfortable having actual faders and buttons. There are times when my husband will sit in the audience and run things from the iPad with no one at the desk.
The IPAD method of mixing is great for small setups and for bands (to use as their mixing solution). We (as a sound provider) do not use IPADs. All of our mixing services are conducted using physical consoles. Though, we do mix for a few bands using their PA system. Many have IPADs as part of their setup.
@@stageleftaudio I’m not sure what you mean by ‘small setups’ because I’ve seen churches with full bands and 12 vocalists, plus 6 choir mikes mixing FOH using the IPad from the audience, while another person was mixing the live stream feed using another iPad with headphones. I’ve also seen another church using 3 analog consoles (one for FOH, one for monitor mix, one for TV feed.) Their pastor didn’t see the need to upgrade their audio equipment . Each person or group has their own preferences. There is a You Tube channel where there is a couple who provide sound for some rather large groups that uses Presonus consoles and mix from either a laptop or ipad. Have a blessed day.
IPADs are great for smaller shows that are a temporary setup vs. large multi-band setups. My comment on the smaller setups were directed toward temporary setups with multi-band events. Having immediate access and control of the inputs on a console is extremely important to a good mix, but more importantly, to be able to correct a problem within a 2-3 seconds. Ultimately, (from what you referenced), it depends on what the person/group is comfortable using and what works for them. These are all tools.
A great video, and quite frankly it defines why I haven't gone fully digital. I only really do smaller events and have both digital (PreSonus 16.4.2) and analogue (Allen & Heath GL-2400/32) boards. I select the board to use depending on what I'm doing and the amount of space I have; I frequently don't have the space for outboard as some of the venues I'm in are "cosy" to say the least. In that case I use my digital board, which does not have support for digital snakes anyway, but does have most of the features I would use my outboard for. I have looked into going fully digital, but having taken into account things like latency and cost; it's a solution to a problem I currently don't have. I think I'll be using analogue snakes for many years to come. I'm by no means anti-digital; I just don't have the need to go fully digital right now. Comparing how we work, there is one small difference in the way I do things; I place my speaker manager in my amp rack at the stage. As I also offer basic lighting services and projection, I run ArtNET for control, so use the same ethernet link to give remote access to the speaker manager to control it from FOH.
We too have no plans of moving to a full digital setup, especially for the large events. We may consider it for smaller events (low channel count events). True, full-digital is a solution to a problem we don't have. Thank you for the reply.
Behringer x32 and s32 is all you need. You can crossover and delay internally on the x32 with 8 outputs. Main L&R, monto Corduroy sub setup, front fills and back of house side fill speaker with delay.
Im sorry guys but I’m completely agree with this presentation, now let me tell you why, if you have a fixed location where your system is going to be forever placed maybe is a good choice for you, but for us the mobile sound providers that requires to move constantly from one location to another then I can guarantee you analog is best, also the latency is real with the digital stuff, I’ve seen it myself, and the amount of gear that you need is crazy, in the other hand the analog is just plug and play and no latency at all, also if you go digital you really have to make sure you buy good gear and I mean expensive and reliable, now what I’m saying is that I’m not against digital, I think is good and beautiful but it’s just the fact that for me the cleaner the better, at least for me and my long experience since 2005 . My last statement for you guys out there ( Old ways are still best ) ❤
Interesting video. I understand where you are coming from on this. I honestly prefer sageboxes and multiple Cat5e lines to the stage. I can run 2 ethernet and 2 fiber lines with my console. If a line fails the audio keeps happening because I still have a 3 other lines plugged in.. It is amazing all the flexibility that can be done now days. I still would rather have 5-12 ethernet lines running from FOH to the stage, but that's me. One other thing is that some consoles only have 8 local inputs and 8 outputs. Keep doing what you are doing.
Your Scenario is Based on running monitors from FOH, but if you run monitor world then you would patch both consoles together with a single Cat5 Cable, and if you want to run x-over at FOH then you would need to run 2 Cat5 cables, then you would need 2 xls-rj45 converter.
You have a point there! Nice explanation! But one thing With the presonus eco system, you can use the 32R rackmount mixer as a stage box/monitor mixer. If ur FOH desk die’s mid show no problem, You can run the show from the stage box. If i was gonna go 100% digital i think i would go with the 32r instead of the stage boxes..
Good day all, to chime into Carl's point, yes, the RM32AI (Presonus) rack mount mixer is perfect for that purpose as I own one. The other big point that that someone made earlier that I just wanted to echo is that it's not really necessary to have all of the digital outboard gear at the stage (particularly if you have something like the RM32 mentioned earlier). In this new digital mixer age, a lot of manufacturers have built a lot of power into these systems that allow you to virtually eliminate TONS of outboard gear that you might use during a conventional sound show set up. Very useful things like speaker delays, eq/crossover control as well as full parametric EQ and dynamic control not only on every input channel but main and aux outputs as well. Analog is great and too have personally used it for many things but in my humble opinion, the ease and flexibility of digital (when properly applied with the right gear combination), is very hard to beat. The very idea of the digital pa set up was made to make the sound techs' lives easier and as the manufacturers improve (and they will as they do listen to the engineers/techs in the field) it will only get better and better. Blessings to all and thank you for allowing me to share. Keep the subs crankin'....
Good explanation for those who didn't know. I had to go through this when I converted my entire system to Dante last year. The conversion made sense for me since I have separate monitor and FOH mixers. The cost of the stageboxes and the networking devices was only slightly more than a splitter snake. I've never used AVB, but from your description, it appears to be a little less flexible compared to Dante. For instance, the AVIOs could ride the same infrastructure as the rest of the equipment instead of needing their own network runs. Also, I could have connected the crossover by looping through a pair of Omni ins and outs on the console. One thing is for sure: I don't miss carrying racks of analog gear.
Thank you for the comment. Speaking of AVB and Dante, Presonus recently came out with a device to bridge an AVB and Dante network. I don't know of anyone who is using this yet, but sounds like a great tool.
Video is a little dated and some things have changed. Consoles now include delays in them for delay towers, so running delay towers from the FOH is simple using the 2nd AES50 output from the console to your towers. The consoles include phase inversion and delay for your carotid subs if desired, or use a speaker management system such as the Meyer Sound Gallieo 616 speaker management system, which is remotely operated over the network, so yes can be fully tuned from FOH, even though the box is in the monitor rack off stage. Adjusting the console and speaker management with a tablet while walking the venue is both possible as well as normal.
09:40, i have an addition to make here, certain digital console can offer the way of using an Matrix as an Crossover, Like the Behringer / Midas X32/M32. so in a digital setup, its not neccasarly that you will need an outboard crossover if this is the case
I agree that is how I run mine, also my digital snake has 32 inputs and 16 outputs much easier to run small cable. I have both love the digital mixer much better.
So on normal shows you run two analogue snakes, one as a backup? A ethercon cat 5 cable is just as susceptible as a snake for cable failure. Nothing wrong with analogue. Some points are very valid but in my opinion you are reaching on a lot of “problems” with digital. You won’t have latency by daisy chaining once between two snakes because the third snake is a backup anyway so it wouldn’t be in use. Any of the DBX driverack series all can be controlled over WiFi. How in the world does an UPS help if your speakers aren’t on a UPS??? Is everything on the stage running on a UPS?
We carry a backup snake as well as a console (either analog or digital depending on the event). There are various single points of failure with a setup; we try to have redundancy in the most critical areas. We only have a UPS covering the FOH console and outboard. I hope to have another video soon covering why we use a UPS.
@@stageleftaudio my point being this video is over the top reaching for reasons against digital. Yes analogue is better in some situations, Yes digital is better in others, but most of these points aren’t valid at all. You didn’t even address all of my points in my comment. Yes you bring a backup snake to a gig but do you go ahead an run the cable? If the power fails and your console and snakes have a UPS it don’t matter because more then likely the speakers won’t be functioning.
To be fair to digital, there are lots of solutions to some of the "problems" you've mentioned. As far as the location of your system processor, if you leave it by your amp racks, any good processor will let you remote in with a tablet for control. If you still want it at FOH, most digital consoles will let you use tie lines between local I/o and stage I/o without using up any processing on the console. It's basically just a pass through. so there's a great way to get your outputs out your drive rack to your amp racks. As far as latency is concerned, I don't think there's any digital console on the market right now that are too latent for IEM's. As long as you're under 6ms, most musicians won't be able to detect it. The only issue can come when you start adding plugin servers, where you can end up adding a bunch of latency.
Very true with the plugins! I suspect not too many people may be aware of that. Remote control processors are nice, though from our perspective, it would require another "gadget" for FOH to manage... simplification is very prominent with us. Thank you for your reply and added solutions!
@@stageleftaudio yeah, I get the not wanting extra devices and things, but 9 times out of 10 there's already a laptop for SMAART, or multi tracking, or a tablet for console control. it's pretty easy to just use that for your system processor as well. alternatively there's tie lines like I mentioned before
@@stageleftaudio for me personally, I've already got my laptop on site for a while variety of things, and even if I didn't I've got a smartphone there too. Seeing as pretty much everything on a modern stage can be controlled from a computer or phone, for me personally it's been extremely beneficial to make the move over. I was working with a company before who used Powersoft X8 amps, they were controlled through a laptop on site. Opening up the software, it's got presets for every speaker and subwoofer under the sun. 2 minutes on the laptop, and we had the amps switched from running big Outline line arrays and massive sub stacks, over to 4 15 inch tops and some tiny Nexo subs. That included corrective EQ, tons of FIR filters, hardware voltage limiters and protection specifically for that box. During the shows, I could glance at the laptop and see what percentage of power each of the amps was at. It's genuinely amazing what the controllable stuff can do, and in my experience it's well worth the shot
Our MacroTech amps, are managed remotely using IP, the QSC PLD amps (unfortunately) require USB. We use the PLD amps 90% of the time for monitors; their management isn't too critical to most shows. The remote management is great; nice to see what's going with the amps during a show. Though, we don't usually use the remote management for every show. Once the amps are setup (prior to the event - setting voltage/thermal limiters, setting high-pass values, etc...) we just let them run. Never any issues. Thanks for your comment.
Great video thanks. Watched a few times recently. Quick question. Is there a reason why you would convert from XLR to RJ45 and back, between the FOH X-over and the AVB switch at stage? Could you not just run an XLR between the two and save the cost and added failure point steps in running through two conversions? Thanks in advance.
Thank you for your comment. Good observation with the points of failure. For your question; yes, a dedicated XLR cable(s) between the crossover and stage could be used. Depending on the setup, we may need 4 XLR cables from our crossover (H/M/L/cardioid, plus a potential backup XLR cable). If we need to run XLR cables, we might as well run a snake for everything! The content of the video was to address the potential cost/issues with moving to a full digital solution while needing to maintain control at FOH. For us, the lack of FOH crossover control (without having to move to a wireless/PC crossover setup) is a big negative. I am not opposed to digital. I think it's great. Digital is a tool, just like analog. Some digital tools work well for our setup, others not so much.
@@stageleftaudio many thanks for your quick response. Good point also about multiple XLR’s versus 1 x RJ45. Absolutely understand the original purpose of the video. Keep them coming! I love all your event ones too!
I think some clarification is necessary. Particularly about the cable. It is perfectly fine to use a traditional Cat5e/6 cable for a digital setup, especially one that is more of a mobile rig that gets setup and moved frequently. Simply because that cable to considerably cheaper than the Ethercon version. I am not bashing Ethercon, but those cables are NOT cheap. A 100 foot Ethercon cable is about $200. A 100' standard Ethernet cable is about $12. for permanent installations, and setups where shielding is necessary, absolutely go with Ethercon, otherwise, for temporary, or very short runs, an ethernet cable will suffice. A digital snake versus an analog snake, is still a cable and stage box.
So how many channels can a single cat 5/6/7 cable carry? Can you send 64 channels over a single cat 7 if you have the right equiptment? Of course you would want redundancy’s but if you had the equipment can it be done or is their a limit so you would have to run 2 or 3 cat 5/6/7 cables to get 60-80 channels? From the stage to the console. Also if you running monitors from your board to the stage how many channels of monitors can you run? Some bands have 16-20 stage monitors plus side fills can you send all that audio over a single cable and separate it when it get to the stage box and then run 16 monitor cables outta the stage box to the speakers?
I would imagine the number of channels a CAT cable can send is high. And yes, it depends if you have the right equipment. I'm not sure what the limit is for a CAT cable. For the monitors, it depends on which console you are using. Each console manufacture may have their own limitations of what their consoles can support. Though, for a 16-20 stage monitor setup... something this large is usually handled by a separate monitor console. For the Presonus (as is other manufactures), if you have a digital console and it has 16 returns/outputs, then that console will be able to support 16 monitor sends.
Sounds like someone trying to defend sticking with their analog setup haha... there's pros and cons on both approaches and this video gives a bit of an understanding although it sounds pretty biased.
Good comments! The premise of the video was to show there is a lot more involved with a digital snake solution than the marketing hype that floats around stating a cat-5/6 cable is all that is needed to run digital. We use analog and digital for our production. Analog is better for some shows... digital is better for others. At this time, we don't use a full digital solution.
Analog systems are all pretty much the same, and a lot more intuitive to use. They are easier to mix on. If someone already knows how to mix on an analog console, they can mix on other analog consoles without training. Digital consoles are good, but will require training to those whom will be using it. If I were to rent gear to new/starting bands, I would choose analog.
It's like wearing 3 condoms..no one gets pregnant but you can't feel anything either. What is the band going to do when the power and lights are out. I have this same board and the nsb 16.8... it reboots in 15 seconds and back to where it was when the power went out. I use the 16.8 and a ethercon cable.. gives me 16 sends and 5 returns with l and r and a sub group group for the bass bins. I have a 12 x 4 analogue snake for full drums and 4 more returns.. its not Woodstock but I have never needed more. You mention latency... the latency on the presonus is almost not perceptible on avb.. Also digital snake means no interference and no crosstalk from induction.I have never had any issue with the avb stage box with noise or rtd delay latency . It is one of the selling features of the presonus digital platform.
Thank you for your reply and experiences with the AVB network. Presonus has done a lot to minimize latency. One of their documents (from what I recall) references a 2ms latency for an entire network. I'm not sure how the other digital solutions (A&H, Midas, Avid, Soundcraft, etc...) compare, but I do think Presonus has done very well. Good to see that it has been a positive experience for you.
what is your experience using cat6 to xlr converters. I have seen some that let you run 4 xlr per cat 6 cable. kind of expensive but may have its applications.
Dante is used by other console manufactures, so I'm not sure how some of the issues (referenced in this video) would be addressed. Many points in the video reference hardware and their limitations with audio (AVB) networking. However, Presonus did come out with an AVB-to-Dante interface not too long ago. We're hoping to see how this is utilized with Presonus gear.
So basically, if you already have a bunch of analog snakes and don’t want to spend the extra money to change over what you’re used to using and already have, don’t bother with going full digital . If you’re just starting out, the cat 6 is cheaper than paying for all that copper... got it.
Consoles are not designed to be used as crossovers; using them in this manner most always results in very poor sound quality and lack of control over the entire mix. Crossovers are inexpensive and perform exponentially better than trying to setup a console to manage frequencies. A big issue with trying to use a console as a crossover has to do with the filtering. Consoles do not provide the same type of filtering (Butterworth, Linkwitz&Riley, Bessel) as is provided by many crossovers. Using an actual crossover yields far better results.
@@stageleftaudio I got rid of my cheap crossover i had in a rack when i got my console because it added noise to my mains in the studio . LOL . I Find the consoles do a nice job of that simple task . plus i can do room measurements and make some adjustments to each set of speakers .
You makes this video a years ago. All the most important speaker manufacturers have their own tuning systems, and from about ten years ago. All of this work remotely with other ethernet cable. Also dbx dsp speaker processor can have remote control, wirelss too. Also beh 2496 dsp have remote controll... What your talking about? Are you serius?
Most recent (ten years always) sound system are active, with digital input (dante or aes), and with own system to tuning each element of the system, from foh position obviously. Always on ethernet cables.
You are correct. There has been a lot of improvements in digital audio. Managing a digital system is different than an analog system. The point of the video was to reference the large amount of "questionable marketing" that started several years ago when marketing firms were stating that a CAT-5 cable was all that was needed to run a digital audio system... which in this video, I show that there is more to a digital audio system than a CAT-5 cable.
When you sing in front of a wedge monitor this is about 2 meter in front of you, this is about 6ms. In large venue there are side system on the stage... 10 meters, 30ms. Behringer x32, from input to output via stage box: 1.2ms (about 35cm) Goodbye...
There is a ms delay in all digital audio equipment. There's been improvements in delay over the years. I think it is getting better. I hope a company will figure out how to get a crossover to be used at FOH (without the need of a computer).
@@stageleftaudio I know, but you are talking of mixers only. So, All other variables being equal, the digital mixer introduces only about 1.5ms of latency. About 50cm. X32 is from 2015, or 2014... Bye
I really disagree with this video.. latency has never been an issue for m.. I have only used the XR18 series of mixer's .. don't need crossovers and stuff like that..
Thanks for your comment. The video was in response to marketing hype from some companies specifically stating digital networking only existed as a single Cat cable (no switches, no stage-boxes, etc...). Digital networking has been out awhile since this video... and the marketing hype has stopped.
Actually, for any digital consoles, switches, stage boxes, etc... that use software/firmware (regardless of the manufacturer), it's best to have a backup; especially for anyone who is a sound provider.
I guess every data center in the world is at risk because they're not using ethercon? I have no problem with using ethercon, but it's actually a handicap. If you by chance break the connector, which typically means that you broke off the locking piece, The cable can still be used and further secured with gaffers tape in a pinch. Better yet, ethernet is so inexpensive that you should just carry a spare or two depending on the mission critical nature of your event. Try finding an ethercon cable in your local Walmart. Seems like you really don't understand how AVB networking is used. You can send data from any device to another AVB compatible device. Where's your comparable analog solution with fail over on every node? This video was made by a dinosaur that has no idea about technology.
Thanks for your comment. The video covers any audio networking technology, not just AVB and not just Ethercon. The marketing hype over audio networking focuses on just an Ethernet cable being the only device needed to use a "digital snake" solution. This video was to show a lot more is actually needed to use a digital solution... as a sound provider.
He jus made a list of 1.5 million $$$ ingear to connect a system that does not to be this complicated, is not like cows and horses will be running by the mixer, I always send my cat5 cable on top of the mixer above all the action, if possible on the roof never had any problems my cables basically land on my mixer, I get it we have excess and we love to exagerate everything, thats why we live this world of self made inflation, people goes crazy hiking up prices for no reason at all, this why gear is so freaking expensive
A few points to be made here
For a start, I've actually had waaaaaaay worse reliability on analogue snakes, stress on cables over time does cause issues believe it or not. I personally carry a bunch of 30 meter XLR cables as backups for channels, and I've definitely had to use them a good few times.
Speaking of connector robustness, standard ethernet cables are robust enough for many datacenters and large businesses, they're most likely also robust enough for your router on-site. The most likely instance for your cable to go bad is during transport. It's not going to magically shatter mid-event if you stare at it wrong, it's protected within the cable box/doghouse at the back of the mixer.
For backing up stageboxes, it's pointless for the most part. Stageboxes are a hell of a lot more simple than the mixing boards, which instead of being "little computers" are often actually full-on computers. Take Digico for example, they have a custom software running over full-on Microsoft Windows. Allen and Heath I-Live series were so, so unreliable purely because of the fact that they ran their software over a full version of Ubuntu Linux. A digital console is always much more of a failure point than a stage box.
For 32ch desks, manufacturers often offer a choice of digital stagebox sizes. For example, with X32 and M32, you can buy the DL32/S32, which are 32ch digital stageboxes. If you want 16ch boxes, then buy DL16/S16.
A UPS is also unnecessary, since if you lose power enough to kill a stagebox or desk, your amps are already long gone. No point in sweating that the stageboxes are still running when the speakers can't make noise. The most you'd need is a basic power conditioner.
I don't know if you're aware how the daisy-chaining method works in terms of the science behind it, but I can assure you there's no need to put a switch there. The daisy-chained units aren't being processed by others, they simply relay the signal. The addition of the switch will add more latency than just daisy-chaining them the way the manufacturers designed them to be used.
A rack shouldn't be an issue at all. Many "high end" analog stageboxes are in fact rack mounted, the more basic models are just a box on the end of the cable. Either way, if you really can't cough up the cash for a small budget rack, just use spare rack units in an amprack if you have them.
If for some reason you really, really need to have your crossover at the FOH instead of setting it up beforehand or just running subs on aux sends, the majority of consoles can repatch channels to individual connectors of their local I/O. No need to run cable all the way back up and down. Crucially, you can send the output of the processor/crossover back into the desk and into dedicated outputs on the stagebox. Patching I/O works both ways around.
Regardless, if you're at a show large enough that you absolutely have to be able to re-set the crossover during a show, and for some reason can't use aux sends, there's most likely a dedicated systems technician on hand. I'm also not sure why you "can't set delays at the stage". Most modern desks have the ability to be controlled remotely, so your aux sends for delay units can be set up directly from your phone, tablet or laptop. The same goes for the vast majority of modern DSP processors and crossovers, they're able to interface with a phone or laptop so you can walk around the entire venue and tune as you go.
Comms is a whole other can of worms I'm not about to open in this comment.
Bottom line: For community festivals and the majority of shows many of your subscribers (and you yourself) would be doing, Coachella levels of redundancy are unnecessary (even though the most important redundancy has been completely ignored: the console!!!!!! weakest link in most digital setups)
It's no secret that analog has its benefits, which is why I still stock analog gear and use it for small shows. That said, the end result of a good digital setup is superior in so many ways that it makes no sense to do it any other way for the vast majority of shows now.
agreed. I think analogue splits are still great for festivals to avoid gain sharing, and to leave tails for guest consoles, but that's pretty much it.
Great comments. We still use analog for most larger multi-band shows, but will usually use digital for smaller ones. Every event we do, we carry a backup console, though I don't think this was ever mentioned on any of our videos. We try to use the best tool for the job.
@@stageleftaudio to be fair, I should have mentioned I do still use analogue here and there myself. I find it pretty handy for much smaller, budget friendly systems. My favorite use for it right now is a little Soundcraft 16 channel in a rack with a few budget wireless mics and some cheap 4 way compresser/limiter units from Behringer. It works great, very handy for when a client just doesn't have the budget or requirement for anything bigger. Also great for DJ events, since I only need like 4 or 5 channels for those
This video is directly for presonus users. Those in the m/x32 systems will not be using a network switch. Also crossover at FOH? Use a newer driverack at stage and access all features with an iPad or laptop, then lock it out so any band techs can’t adjust it. For aux fed subs etc do your processing on a matrix. In fact use L/R Sub and FF on your matrix. Typically I’ll use 2 cat5e Ethernet and a DMX line and power. Anyway, interesting video.
Hot digity.... I was going to come in here and make all kinds of comments.... and then found all of them were already here. :) I don't disagree there is a place for analog, but I have been running full digital for all kinds of shows large and small for years. I do have an analog rig for some outdoor things that consist of less than 3 inputs and 2 outputs, but that's it. For anything else, I've left analog long behind.
I think the biggest advantage in digital is the patching and sends. Something not in the right plug? Most cases, I can reroute and keep going. I can save scenes and presets and run multiple bands at the touch of a button. Also, I have some mobile application that depend on fast setup and teardown, and digital has always proven to be faster and easier to get up and running. I even have one kit that is 100% wireless and all I have to do is give power to the rack and the mains, grab an iPad, and we are running. We have backup cables just in case, but never had to use them.
Good breakdown, Noodles.
Disappointing. Have always enjoyed your videos. This one I actually stopped at 12:57 mark. Couldn’t take the negativity anymore against digital snakes. Most that watch your videos I am sure could use a digital snake to its advantage and are not running sound for a big event. Spare (you forgot to mention “shielded” CAt5e) cable(s) a must. If running sound at this level you would have a digital monitor board along with FOH which will give you options if something failed to run from one board with an iPAD remotely. If a digital snake failed you can use the monitor board as your connection for the analog inputs and outputs. Network switches and crossover out front over kill for your you tube audience. Looking forward to your next video being positive with great information again.
Just as a little side note: the shielding on the Cat5 cable can vary in necessity from desk to desk. I believe it was the Behringer X32 that didn't work properly with the shielding, causing huge spontaneous pops and bangs.
Crossover out front, completely unnecessary in today's world. A bog-standard DBX can be controlled from a laptop or phone, and converting XLR to Cat5 and back is just a really weird way of doing things (especially just after he mentions that you can repatch all your local console I/O, wouldn't you just send the crossover back into a stereo channel and patch it to outputs on the stagebox?)
He's also completely forgotten that the biggest point of failure in a digital system is the console itself, which seems to be the only thing he hasn't made redundant (makes no sense, even a monitor console could be used for redundancy)
I think he's way overshot the audience this time around. Also other things I've seen in his videos make me pretty concerned safety-wise, like the cheap line array towers that are pretty sketchy indoors, let alone outdoors sitting on the stage without guy lines or proper tie downs
Thank you for your comments. The video was certainly not intended to be negative toward digital snakes (or digital solutions)! The content was to show the possibilities of what may be needed as a sound provided, but more importantly to show there could be a lot more to putting together a digital solution. I try to cover a wide aspect of running sound in our videos. Hopefully our future content will prove to be more positive.
@@stageleftaudio I think your video wasn’t negative per say as ill informed as to how this is done at certain levels... you were trying to explain at the best of your ability, and it is incorrect how “things are done”..now
Don't forget... the video is covering a Presonus solution. There are other ways of achieving a digital solution through other manufacturers.
@@stageleftaudio it doesn’t change the fact that there is no appreciable latency with your system, (under .5 ms) the crossover function (at your level or production) can be more than handled by keeping it at the stage, and comms, lighting control can be handled with either one more cat5 - 4x xlr breakout. Or two xlr cables... your choice
I see where you're coming from. What I do is, I use my digital mixing console with an analog 32/8 snake. So I have the benefit of using less outboard for effects etc. but still the flexibility for drive racks and delays and so on....
This is exactly how we setup our system.
The problem with this method is that more and more digital consoles have less physical inputs (I.e. the A&H Avantis with only 12 inputs, the Wing with 8 inputs)
@@Thomas.Hoermann71 yamaha cl the same.
It is not the correct way...
in this video it seems to have remained in 2008
I cannot agree to your vid, although I love your content all the time. But this vid seems more like a statement "I do not like digital" than a real objective discussion about analogue / digital.
1. You overcomplicated the digital setup with the xover outboard - all digital consoles I know have the opportunity to do this with matrixes - no need for an xover outboard
2. You do not necessarily need a switch to avoid latencies (as mentioned already from somebody else here in the comments). This is in nowadays no real problem
3. You ignore that you can have a very lean digital setup and manage a huge channel count with it - especially talking about festivals with maybe several bands, 32 inputs are nothing. With a digital setup and the currently available consoles you can handle 48 - 64 input channels without any problem - for this channel count you would need huge analogue consoles at an unbelievable price range - and with huge footprint
4. Talking about 48 input channels and more - you would need an outboard for effects that would need a whole minivan to be transported
5. You do not mention that with an analogue stagebox with 32 channels you need subcores (snakes) on the stage. Additional cabeling etc. With the digital stageboxes you can have stage boxes with 8 or 16 inputs and place them directly there where you need them on the stage - and not all together in a rack. Meaning you have no need for additional subsnakes on the stage.
6. Talking about backup - you have to consider that you also need a backup for your console - talking here about 46 - 60 input channels this is going to be very expensive
7. The solution analogue snake + digital console is going to fade out cause more and more digital consoles do not have enough physical input channels any more
So my point is:
1. You do not need the "extra" backup stagebox - you can use this wisely and increase your channel count - and safe additional subsnakes on the stage
2. You do not need the complicated solution concerning xover outboard
3. You might need a switch - depends on your setup, but not with all solutions
4. Latency is absolutely no big issue in nowadays digital networks (like Dante)
5. You definitely need a backup for the tactical cable from the FOH to the stage
Great comments! Thank you!
Many good points. Using Powersoft or Labgruppen amps with internal processors has become essential for what we do. Control from a laptop at FOH. Total digital now. I have a beautiful 40 x 8 split analog snake for sale!
I have considerable experience with all strata of digital audio as a provider and your video has many points that are just wrong.
There are no processors in digital stage boxes, hopefully just D to A converters and some form of FPGAs, so no need for UPS. Use a UPS on your console.
The stage boxes if properly designed do not create enough latency to cause more than .02 ms of delay barely noticeable.
Lake controller solves your crossover dilema.
Digi
I fully agree with you this video is so full of false info.
+
Although everything here is theoretically correct, I have to say that I disagree with most of it. I've been watching a lot of your videos for fun. And everytime I have been thinking "Why don't they just get a digital stagebox and a cat cable" It would be so much easier.
I do around 100 shows here in Denmark each year, and for the last 15 years I have been running just a digital console (LS9 and now a QL5), 2 x 16/8 boxes and a single ethernet with power strapped to it. Never had a failure. No switch, no UPS, no extra ethernet (although I do carry a spare in my van). All crossover is done in amps. Fills, delays etc are done in the desk via matrix outs.
A digital setup does cost more. But ohhh... The advantages. Not lugging around a big analog cable, total recall on everything in the desk, and standing right next to musicians with an ipad on stage and mixing their monitor wedges during soundcheck. Wouldn't trade it for the world.
Most desks today stay below 0,5 ms of delay. I run inearmonitors for most of my bands and everybody are as happy as they can be. We regularly jump right into a festival show with only a 2 min linecheck.
Thank you for the comment. The basis of the video was to show what could potentially be involved with moving to a full digital solution. Though, we know that not everyone needs (or wants) redundancy, and will probably not want a UPS or even racks to keep the equipment "safe". Some bands I mix for (on their gear) use full digital setups; they are great.
This is ridiculous. ...All that can be done by adding fx to a matrix out or send
We have a full blown Behringer X-32 console at our church,connected to an X-32 rack mixer at the stage. The two are connected using Cat 6 STP cable. Much cheaper than ethercon cables and just as effective since nothing ever gets disconnected. We have some microphones connected to the main console through a 24 channel snake that was in place with our analog system. Other microphones and all monitor outputs are connected to the. X-32 rack. The monitor outs consist of floor wedges for the choir, a hot spot for the pianist, and in ear for the soloists. Latency has never been an issue. We could have used a digital stage box just as easily, but we had the X-32 rack.
Thanks for your comment. Fixed installations are great for digital solutions!
I have noticed more and more setups where the FOH mixer is either on stage or just off the stage and FOH mix is done with an iPad or other tablet computer. In those applications, the X-32 rack and a DL16 stage box would be all that is needed. We opted for the full desk because our sound person was more comfortable having actual faders and buttons. There are times when my husband will sit in the audience and run things from the iPad with no one at the desk.
The IPAD method of mixing is great for small setups and for bands (to use as their mixing solution). We (as a sound provider) do not use IPADs. All of our mixing services are conducted using physical consoles. Though, we do mix for a few bands using their PA system. Many have IPADs as part of their setup.
@@stageleftaudio I’m not sure what you mean by ‘small setups’ because I’ve seen churches with full bands and 12 vocalists, plus 6 choir mikes mixing FOH using the IPad from the audience, while another person was mixing the live stream feed using another iPad with headphones. I’ve also seen another church using 3 analog consoles (one for FOH, one for monitor mix, one for TV feed.) Their pastor didn’t see the need to upgrade their audio equipment . Each person or group has their own preferences. There is a You Tube channel where there is a couple who provide sound for some rather large groups that uses Presonus consoles and mix from either a laptop or ipad. Have a blessed day.
IPADs are great for smaller shows that are a temporary setup vs. large multi-band setups. My comment on the smaller setups were directed toward temporary setups with multi-band events. Having immediate access and control of the inputs on a console is extremely important to a good mix, but more importantly, to be able to correct a problem within a 2-3 seconds. Ultimately, (from what you referenced), it depends on what the person/group is comfortable using and what works for them. These are all tools.
A great video, and quite frankly it defines why I haven't gone fully digital. I only really do smaller events and have both digital (PreSonus 16.4.2) and analogue (Allen & Heath GL-2400/32) boards. I select the board to use depending on what I'm doing and the amount of space I have; I frequently don't have the space for outboard as some of the venues I'm in are "cosy" to say the least. In that case I use my digital board, which does not have support for digital snakes anyway, but does have most of the features I would use my outboard for. I have looked into going fully digital, but having taken into account things like latency and cost; it's a solution to a problem I currently don't have. I think I'll be using analogue snakes for many years to come. I'm by no means anti-digital; I just don't have the need to go fully digital right now.
Comparing how we work, there is one small difference in the way I do things; I place my speaker manager in my amp rack at the stage. As I also offer basic lighting services and projection, I run ArtNET for control, so use the same ethernet link to give remote access to the speaker manager to control it from FOH.
We too have no plans of moving to a full digital setup, especially for the large events. We may consider it for smaller events (low channel count events). True, full-digital is a solution to a problem we don't have. Thank you for the reply.
Behringer x32 and s32 is all you need. You can crossover and delay internally on the x32 with 8 outputs. Main L&R, monto Corduroy sub setup, front fills and back of house side fill speaker with delay.
Im sorry guys but I’m completely agree with this presentation, now let me tell you why, if you have a fixed location where your system is going to be forever placed maybe is a good choice for you, but for us the mobile sound providers that requires to move constantly from one location to another then I can guarantee you analog is best, also the latency is real with the digital stuff, I’ve seen it myself, and the amount of gear that you need is crazy, in the other hand the analog is just plug and play and no latency at all, also if you go digital you really have to make sure you buy good gear and I mean expensive and reliable, now what I’m saying is that I’m not against digital, I think is good and beautiful but it’s just the fact that for me the cleaner the better, at least for me and my long experience since 2005 . My last statement for you guys out there ( Old ways are still best ) ❤
Interesting video. I understand where you are coming from on this. I honestly prefer sageboxes and multiple Cat5e lines to the stage.
I can run 2 ethernet and 2 fiber lines with my console. If a line fails the audio keeps happening because I still have a 3 other lines plugged in..
It is amazing all the flexibility that can be done now days.
I still would rather have 5-12 ethernet lines running from FOH to the stage, but that's me.
One other thing is that some consoles only have 8 local inputs and 8 outputs.
Keep doing what you are doing.
Thank you!
Your Scenario is Based on running monitors from FOH, but if you run monitor world then you would patch both consoles together with a single Cat5 Cable, and if you want to run x-over at FOH then you would need to run 2 Cat5 cables, then you would need 2 xls-rj45 converter.
Thank you so much for this wonderful information!!!👍🏻👌🏻
Glad it was helpful!
You have a point there! Nice explanation! But one thing With the presonus eco system, you can use the 32R rackmount mixer as a stage box/monitor mixer. If ur FOH desk die’s mid show no problem, You can run the show from the stage box. If i was gonna go 100% digital i think i would go with the 32r instead of the stage boxes..
Yes, I have heard of bands using 32R mixers for a stage box. They enjoy the potential flexibility. Thanks for the comment.
Good day all, to chime into Carl's point, yes, the RM32AI (Presonus) rack mount mixer is perfect for that purpose as I own one. The other big point that that someone made earlier that I just wanted to echo is that it's not really necessary to have all of the digital outboard gear at the stage (particularly if you have something like the RM32 mentioned earlier). In this new digital mixer age, a lot of manufacturers have built a lot of power into these systems that allow you to virtually eliminate TONS of outboard gear that you might use during a conventional sound show set up. Very useful things like speaker delays, eq/crossover control as well as full parametric EQ and dynamic control not only on every input channel but main and aux outputs as well. Analog is great and too have personally used it for many things but in my humble opinion, the ease and flexibility of digital (when properly applied with the right gear combination), is very hard to beat. The very idea of the digital pa set up was made to make the sound techs' lives easier and as the manufacturers improve (and they will as they do listen to the engineers/techs in the field) it will only get better and better. Blessings to all and thank you for allowing me to share. Keep the subs crankin'....
Good explanation for those who didn't know. I had to go through this when I converted my entire system to Dante last year. The conversion made sense for me since I have separate monitor and FOH mixers. The cost of the stageboxes and the networking devices was only slightly more than a splitter snake. I've never used AVB, but from your description, it appears to be a little less flexible compared to Dante. For instance, the AVIOs could ride the same infrastructure as the rest of the equipment instead of needing their own network runs. Also, I could have connected the crossover by looping through a pair of Omni ins and outs on the console. One thing is for sure: I don't miss carrying racks of analog gear.
Thank you for the comment. Speaking of AVB and Dante, Presonus recently came out with a device to bridge an AVB and Dante network. I don't know of anyone who is using this yet, but sounds like a great tool.
Video is a little dated and some things have changed. Consoles now include delays in them for delay towers, so running delay towers from the FOH is simple using the 2nd AES50 output from the console to your towers. The consoles include phase inversion and delay for your carotid subs if desired, or use a speaker management system such as the Meyer Sound Gallieo 616 speaker management system, which is remotely operated over the network, so yes can be fully tuned from FOH, even though the box is in the monitor rack off stage. Adjusting the console and speaker management with a tablet while walking the venue is both possible as well as normal.
It's good to see the improvements.
09:40, i have an addition to make here, certain digital console can offer the way of using an Matrix as an Crossover, Like the Behringer / Midas X32/M32. so in a digital setup, its not neccasarly that you will need an outboard crossover if this is the case
I agree that is how I run mine, also my digital snake has 32 inputs and 16 outputs much easier to run small cable. I have both love the digital mixer much better.
So on normal shows you run two analogue snakes, one as a backup? A ethercon cat 5 cable is just as susceptible as a snake for cable failure. Nothing wrong with analogue. Some points are very valid but in my opinion you are reaching on a lot of “problems” with digital. You won’t have latency by daisy chaining once between two snakes because the third snake is a backup anyway so it wouldn’t be in use. Any of the DBX driverack series all can be controlled over WiFi. How in the world does an UPS help if your speakers aren’t on a UPS??? Is everything on the stage running on a UPS?
We carry a backup snake as well as a console (either analog or digital depending on the event). There are various single points of failure with a setup; we try to have redundancy in the most critical areas. We only have a UPS covering the FOH console and outboard. I hope to have another video soon covering why we use a UPS.
@@stageleftaudio my point being this video is over the top reaching for reasons against digital. Yes analogue is better in some situations, Yes digital is better in others, but most of these points aren’t valid at all. You didn’t even address all of my points in my comment. Yes you bring a backup snake to a gig but do you go ahead an run the cable? If the power fails and your console and snakes have a UPS it don’t matter because more then likely the speakers won’t be functioning.
To be fair to digital, there are lots of solutions to some of the "problems" you've mentioned. As far as the location of your system processor, if you leave it by your amp racks, any good processor will let you remote in with a tablet for control. If you still want it at FOH, most digital consoles will let you use tie lines between local I/o and stage I/o without using up any processing on the console. It's basically just a pass through. so there's a great way to get your outputs out your drive rack to your amp racks.
As far as latency is concerned, I don't think there's any digital console on the market right now that are too latent for IEM's. As long as you're under 6ms, most musicians won't be able to detect it. The only issue can come when you start adding plugin servers, where you can end up adding a bunch of latency.
Very true with the plugins! I suspect not too many people may be aware of that. Remote control processors are nice, though from our perspective, it would require another "gadget" for FOH to manage... simplification is very prominent with us. Thank you for your reply and added solutions!
@@stageleftaudio yeah, I get the not wanting extra devices and things, but 9 times out of 10 there's already a laptop for SMAART, or multi tracking, or a tablet for console control. it's pretty easy to just use that for your system processor as well. alternatively there's tie lines like I mentioned before
@@stageleftaudio for me personally, I've already got my laptop on site for a while variety of things, and even if I didn't I've got a smartphone there too. Seeing as pretty much everything on a modern stage can be controlled from a computer or phone, for me personally it's been extremely beneficial to make the move over.
I was working with a company before who used Powersoft X8 amps, they were controlled through a laptop on site. Opening up the software, it's got presets for every speaker and subwoofer under the sun. 2 minutes on the laptop, and we had the amps switched from running big Outline line arrays and massive sub stacks, over to 4 15 inch tops and some tiny Nexo subs. That included corrective EQ, tons of FIR filters, hardware voltage limiters and protection specifically for that box.
During the shows, I could glance at the laptop and see what percentage of power each of the amps was at. It's genuinely amazing what the controllable stuff can do, and in my experience it's well worth the shot
Our MacroTech amps, are managed remotely using IP, the QSC PLD amps (unfortunately) require USB. We use the PLD amps 90% of the time for monitors; their management isn't too critical to most shows. The remote management is great; nice to see what's going with the amps during a show. Though, we don't usually use the remote management for every show. Once the amps are setup (prior to the event - setting voltage/thermal limiters, setting high-pass values, etc...) we just let them run. Never any issues. Thanks for your comment.
Great video thanks. Watched a few times recently. Quick question. Is there a reason why you would convert from XLR to RJ45 and back, between the FOH X-over and the AVB switch at stage? Could you not just run an XLR between the two and save the cost and added failure point steps in running through two conversions? Thanks in advance.
Thank you for your comment. Good observation with the points of failure. For your question; yes, a dedicated XLR cable(s) between the crossover and stage could be used. Depending on the setup, we may need 4 XLR cables from our crossover (H/M/L/cardioid, plus a potential backup XLR cable). If we need to run XLR cables, we might as well run a snake for everything!
The content of the video was to address the potential cost/issues with moving to a full digital solution while needing to maintain control at FOH. For us, the lack of FOH crossover control (without having to move to a wireless/PC crossover setup) is a big negative. I am not opposed to digital. I think it's great. Digital is a tool, just like analog. Some digital tools work well for our setup, others not so much.
@@stageleftaudio many thanks for your quick response. Good point also about multiple XLR’s versus 1 x RJ45. Absolutely understand the original purpose of the video. Keep them coming! I love all your event ones too!
Thank you so much. For sharing your knowlege
I think some clarification is necessary. Particularly about the cable. It is perfectly fine to use a traditional Cat5e/6 cable for a digital setup, especially one that is more of a mobile rig that gets setup and moved frequently. Simply because that cable to considerably cheaper than the Ethercon version. I am not bashing Ethercon, but those cables are NOT cheap. A 100 foot Ethercon cable is about $200. A 100' standard Ethernet cable is about $12.
for permanent installations, and setups where shielding is necessary, absolutely go with Ethercon, otherwise, for temporary, or very short runs, an ethernet cable will suffice.
A digital snake versus an analog snake, is still a cable and stage box.
Thank you for the comment!
A very Nice Video You can Make how all Your Pa System IS tuned
At some point in the future!
So how many channels can a single cat 5/6/7 cable carry? Can you send 64 channels over a single cat 7 if you have the right equiptment? Of course you would want redundancy’s but if you had the equipment can it be done or is their a limit so you would have to run 2 or 3 cat 5/6/7 cables to get 60-80 channels? From the stage to the console. Also if you running monitors from your board to the stage how many channels of monitors can you run? Some bands have 16-20 stage monitors plus side fills can you send all that audio over a single cable and separate it when it get to the stage box and then run 16 monitor cables outta the stage box to the speakers?
I would imagine the number of channels a CAT cable can send is high. And yes, it depends if you have the right equipment. I'm not sure what the limit is for a CAT cable. For the monitors, it depends on which console you are using. Each console manufacture may have their own limitations of what their consoles can support. Though, for a 16-20 stage monitor setup... something this large is usually handled by a separate monitor console. For the Presonus (as is other manufactures), if you have a digital console and it has 16 returns/outputs, then that console will be able to support 16 monitor sends.
Good job buddy
Thanks 👍
Cool
Great video!
Thanks!
Sounds like someone trying to defend sticking with their analog setup haha... there's pros and cons on both approaches and this video gives a bit of an understanding although it sounds pretty biased.
Good comments!
The premise of the video was to show there is a lot more involved with a digital snake solution than the marketing hype that floats around stating a cat-5/6 cable is all that is needed to run digital.
We use analog and digital for our production. Analog is better for some shows... digital is better for others. At this time, we don't use a full digital solution.
I thinking to have small pa-system for new/starting band's to rent, is it better have analog system or digital?
Analog systems are all pretty much the same, and a lot more intuitive to use. They are easier to mix on. If someone already knows how to mix on an analog console, they can mix on other analog consoles without training. Digital consoles are good, but will require training to those whom will be using it. If I were to rent gear to new/starting bands, I would choose analog.
@@stageleftaudio Thanks for answer. =)
OR, put a router in your Stagebox rack to connect you Driverack to and control it from your computer/iPad at FOH
It's like wearing 3 condoms..no one gets pregnant but you can't feel anything either. What is the band going to do when the power and lights are out. I have this same board and the nsb 16.8... it reboots in 15 seconds and back to where it was when the power went out. I use the 16.8 and a ethercon cable.. gives me 16 sends and 5 returns with l and r and a sub group group for the bass bins. I have a 12 x 4 analogue snake for full drums and 4 more returns.. its not Woodstock but I have never needed more. You mention latency... the latency on the presonus is almost not perceptible on avb.. Also digital snake means no interference and no crosstalk from induction.I have never had any issue with the avb stage box with noise or rtd delay latency . It is one of the selling features of the presonus digital platform.
Thank you for your reply and experiences with the AVB network. Presonus has done a lot to minimize latency. One of their documents (from what I recall) references a 2ms latency for an entire network. I'm not sure how the other digital solutions (A&H, Midas, Avid, Soundcraft, etc...) compare, but I do think Presonus has done very well. Good to see that it has been a positive experience for you.
what is your experience using cat6 to xlr converters. I have seen some that let you run 4 xlr per cat 6 cable. kind of expensive but may have its applications.
From what we have seen, cat5e would be the minimum to use; cat 6/7 would probably make no difference. All the converts function the same way.
Great video sir,thank you so much for explaining 👍
My pleasure
While this is a good explanation. What about Dante or other ways????
Dante is used by other console manufactures, so I'm not sure how some of the issues (referenced in this video) would be addressed. Many points in the video reference hardware and their limitations with audio (AVB) networking. However, Presonus did come out with an AVB-to-Dante interface not too long ago. We're hoping to see how this is utilized with Presonus gear.
nice 🙏🏻
Thank you! Cheers!
So basically, if you already have a bunch of analog snakes and don’t want to spend the extra money to change over what you’re used to using and already have, don’t bother with going full digital . If you’re just starting out, the cat 6 is cheaper than paying for all that copper... got it.
You are correct! Moving to a full digital "snake" solution can be very expensive compared to analog.
YOU CAN SETUP CROSSOVER IN THE BOARD IN A MATRIX MIX WITH DELAY CONTROL .
Using the matrices (and sometimes subgroups) in consoles as a crossover, is an unfortunate trend.
@@stageleftaudio why is it unfortunate ?
Consoles are not designed to be used as crossovers; using them in this manner most always results in very poor sound quality and lack of control over the entire mix. Crossovers are inexpensive and perform exponentially better than trying to setup a console to manage frequencies. A big issue with trying to use a console as a crossover has to do with the filtering. Consoles do not provide the same type of filtering (Butterworth, Linkwitz&Riley, Bessel) as is provided by many crossovers. Using an actual crossover yields far better results.
@@stageleftaudio I got rid of my cheap crossover i had in a rack when i got my console because it added noise to my mains in the studio . LOL . I Find the consoles do a nice job of that simple task . plus i can do room measurements and make some adjustments to each set of speakers .
Studios do need an extra amount of "quiet"! Consoles are usually quieter than most outboard gear. Thanks for the follow up!
You makes this video a years ago.
All the most important speaker manufacturers have their own tuning systems, and from about ten years ago.
All of this work remotely with other ethernet cable.
Also dbx dsp speaker processor can have remote control, wirelss too.
Also beh 2496 dsp have remote controll...
What your talking about? Are you serius?
Most recent (ten years always) sound system are active, with digital input (dante or aes), and with own system to tuning each element of the system, from foh position obviously.
Always on ethernet cables.
You are correct. There has been a lot of improvements in digital audio. Managing a digital system is different than an analog system. The point of the video was to reference the large amount of "questionable marketing" that started several years ago when marketing firms were stating that a CAT-5 cable was all that was needed to run a digital audio system... which in this video, I show that there is more to a digital audio system than a CAT-5 cable.
I watched the video to learn how to use digital cat 5e,, now im scared to go digital
I have both love them both digital is a lot easier to setup
When you sing in front of a wedge monitor this is about 2 meter in front of you, this is about 6ms.
In large venue there are side system on the stage... 10 meters, 30ms.
Behringer x32, from input to output via stage box: 1.2ms (about 35cm)
Goodbye...
There is a ms delay in all digital audio equipment. There's been improvements in delay over the years. I think it is getting better.
I hope a company will figure out how to get a crossover to be used at FOH (without the need of a computer).
@@stageleftaudio I know, but you are talking of mixers only.
So, All other variables being equal, the digital mixer introduces only about 1.5ms of latency.
About 50cm.
X32 is from 2015, or 2014...
Bye
I really disagree with this video.. latency has never been an issue for m.. I have only used the XR18 series of mixer's .. don't need crossovers and stuff like that..
yeah, i'd rather pull the snake :)
So so so overworked system! I run a complete system 48 In and 24 out on a single rj45 ethercon cat6!
Thanks for your comment. The video was in response to marketing hype from some companies specifically stating digital networking only existed as a single Cat cable (no switches, no stage-boxes, etc...). Digital networking has been out awhile since this video... and the marketing hype has stopped.
Of course you are going to need a backup for everything when you buy presonus products...
Actually, for any digital consoles, switches, stage boxes, etc... that use software/firmware (regardless of the manufacturer), it's best to have a backup; especially for anyone who is a sound provider.
Not had a good experience with Presonus?? What challenges did you have out of interest?
Ridiculous
I guess every data center in the world is at risk because they're not using ethercon? I have no problem with using ethercon, but it's actually a handicap. If you by chance break the connector, which typically means that you broke off the locking piece, The cable can still be used and further secured with gaffers tape in a pinch. Better yet, ethernet is so inexpensive that you should just carry a spare or two depending on the mission critical nature of your event. Try finding an ethercon cable in your local Walmart.
Seems like you really don't understand how AVB networking is used. You can send data from any device to another AVB compatible device.
Where's your comparable analog solution with fail over on every node?
This video was made by a dinosaur that has no idea about technology.
Thanks for your comment. The video covers any audio networking technology, not just AVB and not just Ethercon. The marketing hype over audio networking focuses on just an Ethernet cable being the only device needed to use a "digital snake" solution. This video was to show a lot more is actually needed to use a digital solution... as a sound provider.
He jus made a list of 1.5 million $$$ ingear to connect a system that does not to be this complicated, is not like cows and horses will be running by the mixer, I always send my cat5 cable on top of the mixer above all the action, if possible on the roof never had any problems my cables basically land on my mixer, I get it we have excess and we love to exagerate everything, thats why we live this world of self made inflation, people goes crazy hiking up prices for no reason at all, this why gear is so freaking expensive
Cool.