What a wonderful compilation and explanation of the breakdown of the Olympic Dressage test between 3 different riders and their horses. To see anyone doing any type of "Classical" Dressage in today's time is a hard task. With a few exceptions. Dr. Klimke's daughter is a perfect example of Classical Dressage, and rarely gets the marks she deserves. Her horses rarely show signs of discomfort or displeasure in their "job." Each horse has a job to do, whether that's as a fair weather ride for their owner and kids, or as a show horse across the many types of disciplines of riding that are out there. Again, thank you for showing the differences!! Your friend, the Retired Paramedic, a FORMER FEI Judge, and now a Horse Trainer in Ontario, Canada, Jenn 💖 🇨🇦
Thank you for your insights as always, Jenn. There sure is a difference between horses trained by sound conditioning principles and those that are not. I can clearly see it as a therapist as I'm tasked to correct it! I will take a look at Team Klinke.
Thank you HSR for compiling the video and explaining frame by frame each rider and horse dressage movement as per the test. Very informative. Thank you
First, I want to say thank you for putting together this detailed video. I'm sure it took quite a bit of time to edit this together. Great job. 👍 Probably unpopular option, but I don't like Carl's tight-necked horse. I think I've heard him say that this horse is quite hot, so I'm guessing he has to keep him together more than desired - hence the short neck. Becky was fabulous. She looked like she had a great time and gave her best. I didn't see any tension in this pair. Good for her, and it's great to see that she brought her baby up the right way. Definitely shows that you don't have to buy the best to be the best. Very inspirational. Where Jessica collects her high marks are in the piaffe, passage, and her transitions in and out of the pi/pa. Her mare is a huge mover with a lot of elasticity. I think her extended trot is another highlight. Since she's now officially retired this horse, we'll see what else she has in store for us.
/Thank you for your detailed insights. Performance dissection is certainly a time consuming process, but well worth the result! Yes, Carl has a strong preference for hot horses and that's a massive challenge in itself. It sure will be interesting to see the next generation of Jessica's horses.
One of the problems with modern dressage might be that to make the sport more attractive to the casual watcher, the participants try to make it look more flashy. Larger, more spectacular and showy. Sometimes the consequence might be that not the horse most suitable for what is stated in the FEI rules is selected, but the one whose natural gaits look...more spectacular. If you look e.g. at videos of older dressage performances auch as with Dr. Rainer Klimke, or presentations from the Royal Vienna Riding school, it looks much more...boring to the casual fan. The problem here is that you really need some knowledge to be able to judge that whether what you see is basically the mixture of bodybuilding and ballet that proper dressage should be, or just some flashy leglifting. I think Dr. Klimke's daughter, who is more of an eventer than a dressage rider (at least for now), rides much more in the proper direction. It is also interesting that she rarely places at the top (which, at least to me, might even be a positive thing). Maybe you can analyse one of her performances with e.g. Franziskus? He is a really beautiful stallion.
That’s I very interesting response. Thank you. Whilst watching this analysis, the discussion regarding the high front leg expression and the elevated and straight full leg extension in the trot. I might have this wrong but this is seen as a type of fault (incorrect movement) , but I have many quality horses out at pasture expressing themselves just so on their moments of exuberance. So this can be a natural trait rather than a trained one. Would this mean one shouldn’t promote this stock?
@@Golden1989-days All of these dressage competitions are basically an advertisement event for the German Warmblood with all of its variants all over the world. So this all caters to a billion-dollar industry. That is also the reason that, even if trained properly, breeds such as e.g. Lipizzaner, Friesian, PRE or Haflinger, even thoroughbreds never get comparable results. Which I always find a little odd. Shouldn't at least breeds such as PRE or Lipizzaner, which both were basically bred to do classical dressage (i.e. what dressage originally was) mostly are never seen in top events (okay, many ago there was a PRE, but this was regarded as exceptionally exotic and somewhat cute). Otherwise, if you do not ride something Warmblood, your chances are very low.
@@SandraOrtmann1976 Very interesting. Let’s be honest here. A PRE would stand out like a freak against the horses shown. Their movements are so naturally extravagant, good luck looking for suppleness in the neck and back with such crazy muscle development. But does that make their movement wrong or should each “type” be judged purely against their own “type” for fairness. The one thing that is abundantly obvious is that although there are rules and standards to be met all along the way, every judge will have their own bias of type. It is what it is. And provided they follow all judging guidelines …… It was interesting this continual commenting re “poll high” and “overbent”. I really watched and re watched to check her points. And frequently all three had exactly the same “V” angle. And yet one was described as correct position when in fact they were all slightly out. But it was a moment in time ….
@@Golden1989-days To me, it is a lot like art or essay writing in school. If you are "the right type", and the teacher likes you, you can hardly do any wrong. If not, you can be as good as Michelangelo or Michael Ende, you will get a low grade. As a consequence, I do not watch such competitions anymore (did this very religiously in my riding school days. When I got my PRE mix, and he simply did not accept these methods, I had the options to sell him again or to change my methods. I decided to change my methods, and it was all worth it).
Thank you for your insights Sandra. I doubt if the casual watcher will ever be hooked on this spectacle, especially since they are all fired up about the horses being coerced to perform. There's going to have a be a massive U Turn somewhere in the chain. I will certainly take a look at Franziskus and report back....
Caroline, yet again another really good video, that compares and contrasts the top modern dressage horse in competition in which you have broken down, (excuse the pun) how subjective the marking and scoring of dressage tests are done. Each individual judge has their own perspective on what they are observing, and this also depends on what they like to see in a top dressage horse, as the whole ethos has changed from classical dressage to something more elevated , and in some cases more exaggerated, that is at times seen in the modern top dressage horses. Alois Podhajsky said in his book " The complete training of Horse and Rider" with forward by Sylvia Loch, that, "The object of the classical art of riding (note that Podhajsky says riding) is to train the horse not only to be brilliant in the movements and exercises of the haute ecole but also to be quiet, supple , and obedient, and by his smooth movements to make riding a true pleasure."
Thank you Maverick. Putting them all side by side was certainly an eye opener! I can't see how the judges can mark several aspects of the component all in one hit. There must be something more at play in this system.
I wouldn't doubt that Carole! It was interesting to me to see how much that horse's residual dynamic posture was hindering Carl's efforts to help the horse to perform to the max. It's so much easier to see these aspects when you can dissect the performance with slow motion and stills.
There were times when all three were behind the vertical but I observed that Becky's horse spent significantly less time behind the vertical and her horse was more supple overall.
i was led to understand that a sign of discomfort from a horse can be excessive tail swishing when there are no flies around. Jessica's horse has a very busy tail the entire time compared to the other two horses.
Dear, you are extra interesting. Thnx thnx thnx for education. It means a lot for us who have no chance to learn ,,live,,. Books are books but this is for learning and thinking. It is super you compare from different aspects, classical dressage, modern and health and well being for horses. Plz if you have time and good will to do the same with lower level of dr.tests. and thank you for simple English and not fast speed of talking. All the best. 🙏🙏🙏☀️🥂💎
This is an interesting concept of a video but using stills one cannot get an accurate sense of rhythm and movement...too analytical with not enough information....I have watched Dalera go many times and she is certainly a relaxed looking horse...she has a bit of an unusual build and way of going though...JVBW I am certain trains her with great care and softness. Her eye is very soft, so I think the order was fine. Though it is good to have these discussions.
why didn't anyone point out that those horses' necks are bent at an unnatural angle? Or why they have something in their mouth that is pulling pulling their lips back so far that we can see the teeth? pain
That's the problem of subjective marking. To me I focus on the mobility of the base of the neck, which produces the quality of the movement of the head. Let's hope the meeting on Oct 1st that is presenting on the horses oral cavity helps to indicate a new way forward.
Jessica's horse has a lateral collected walk, why didn't you point that out? So many GP horses have a lateral collected walk. Moody's horse is lateral also, just not as much...Karl's horse in not lateral. In fact, I think it was in the Special, Jessica's horse was so lateral that she messed up her transition into piaffe trying to fix the lateral walk...
Well spotted but there is not enough film and not high enough quality to assess for the rhythm of the hoof beats although I agree there is not an obviously clear 4 time beat for any of them. I was more interested in the suppleness of the backs which should produce a rhythmical walk. I'm suspicious of the positioning of those saddles which may alter the timing of the footfall if the scapulae are restricted and they are uncomfortable. The walk is much better when the horses are leaving the arena on a long rein. It's not easy to achieve a 4 time beat in walk in collection. Where do you think the fault lies in them not being able to achieve a 4 time foot fall?
@@HorseSaddleRiderthank you for responding... probably lack of throughness in the back, Jessica's horse is a leg mover which means her back is not supple, Becky's horse is better, but still lateral, not as obvious why as compared to Jessica. Another reason may be lack of bend, very few people ride with enough bend while moving straight...I think this is the reason shoulder in is used to correct a lateral walk. A third reason is contact and for me this is huge. I 've been studying the following hand vs the fixed hand and I'm starting to think the fixed hand causes horses to be backed off from the bridle, in almost imperceivable ways. With the fixed hand, acting on bars or tongue, when a horse meets that hand, albeit on his own (given the hand is fixed), he will feel that pressure and react away from it, again almost imperceivably. I also think that the fixed hand drives the horse through his chest, unless the rider is really good at keeping the whither and the back up at the same time as using the hand, most people don't do this, it requires knowledge of using the seat. Being driven through the chest would cause a lateral walk IMO, maybe Becky's problem. The following lifting hand works on the lips, and the demi arret lifts the whither wo disturbing the tempo, the horse is not driven into collection, the horse is lifted into collection. Big powerful horses can deal with the fixed hand and still seem correct, particularly since they are trained to take the bit; a horse ridden with a following hand will use the bit as a reference point ( think ballet bar) from which to develop his own self carriage wo dependence on the hand, it takes longer to train but the results are well worth it. (check this out, Pippa Callanan on the following hand), th-cam.com/video/94nvqSIEkC4/w-d-xo.html&ab_channel=OldManWillowFarm I would love to know what you think about contact and the various ways it is achieved, if you have time to comment any more...thank you!
Watched Becky's GPS test and in the extended walk, the horse has a tight lower back wo overtack, this probably affects the collected walk, causing a lateral walk...
Yes, there is no value to making the performance more complex. The spectacle of a horse moving well and a rider following harmoniously should be sufficient. The more of a circus it becomes, the more pointless it is.
What a wonderful compilation and explanation of the breakdown of the Olympic Dressage test between 3 different riders and their horses. To see anyone doing any type of "Classical" Dressage in today's time is a hard task. With a few exceptions. Dr. Klimke's daughter is a perfect example of Classical Dressage, and rarely gets the marks she deserves. Her horses rarely show signs of discomfort or displeasure in their "job." Each horse has a job to do, whether that's as a fair weather ride for their owner and kids, or as a show horse across the many types of disciplines of riding that are out there. Again, thank you for showing the differences!! Your friend, the Retired Paramedic, a FORMER FEI Judge, and now a Horse Trainer in Ontario, Canada, Jenn 💖 🇨🇦
Thank you for your insights as always, Jenn. There sure is a difference between horses trained by sound conditioning principles and those that are not. I can clearly see it as a therapist as I'm tasked to correct it! I will take a look at Team Klinke.
Thank you HSR for compiling the video and explaining frame by frame each rider and horse dressage movement as per the test. Very informative. Thank you
First, I want to say thank you for putting together this detailed video. I'm sure it took quite a bit of time to edit this together. Great job. 👍
Probably unpopular option, but I don't like Carl's tight-necked horse. I think I've heard him say that this horse is quite hot, so I'm guessing he has to keep him together more than desired - hence the short neck.
Becky was fabulous. She looked like she had a great time and gave her best. I didn't see any tension in this pair. Good for her, and it's great to see that she brought her baby up the right way. Definitely shows that you don't have to buy the best to be the best. Very inspirational.
Where Jessica collects her high marks are in the piaffe, passage, and her transitions in and out of the pi/pa. Her mare is a huge mover with a lot of elasticity. I think her extended trot is another highlight. Since she's now officially retired this horse, we'll see what else she has in store for us.
/Thank you for your detailed insights. Performance dissection is certainly a time consuming process, but well worth the result! Yes, Carl has a strong preference for hot horses and that's a massive challenge in itself. It sure will be interesting to see the next generation of Jessica's horses.
One of the problems with modern dressage might be that to make the sport more attractive to the casual watcher, the participants try to make it look more flashy. Larger, more spectacular and showy. Sometimes the consequence might be that not the horse most suitable for what is stated in the FEI rules is selected, but the one whose natural gaits look...more spectacular.
If you look e.g. at videos of older dressage performances auch as with Dr. Rainer Klimke, or presentations from the Royal Vienna Riding school, it looks much more...boring to the casual fan. The problem here is that you really need some knowledge to be able to judge that whether what you see is basically the mixture of bodybuilding and ballet that proper dressage should be, or just some flashy leglifting.
I think Dr. Klimke's daughter, who is more of an eventer than a dressage rider (at least for now), rides much more in the proper direction. It is also interesting that she rarely places at the top (which, at least to me, might even be a positive thing). Maybe you can analyse one of her performances with e.g. Franziskus? He is a really beautiful stallion.
That’s I very interesting response. Thank you.
Whilst watching this analysis, the discussion regarding the high front leg expression and the elevated and straight full leg extension in the trot. I might have this wrong but this is seen as a type of fault (incorrect movement) , but I have many quality horses out at pasture expressing themselves just so on their moments of exuberance. So this can be a natural trait rather than a trained one. Would this mean one shouldn’t promote this stock?
@@Golden1989-days All of these dressage competitions are basically an advertisement event for the German Warmblood with all of its variants all over the world. So this all caters to a billion-dollar industry. That is also the reason that, even if trained properly, breeds such as e.g. Lipizzaner, Friesian, PRE or Haflinger, even thoroughbreds never get comparable results. Which I always find a little odd. Shouldn't at least breeds such as PRE or Lipizzaner, which both were basically bred to do classical dressage (i.e. what dressage originally was) mostly are never seen in top events (okay, many ago there was a PRE, but this was regarded as exceptionally exotic and somewhat cute). Otherwise, if you do not ride something Warmblood, your chances are very low.
@@SandraOrtmann1976
Very interesting. Let’s be honest here. A PRE would stand out like a freak against the horses shown. Their movements are so naturally extravagant, good luck looking for suppleness in the neck and back with such crazy muscle development. But does that make their movement wrong or should each “type” be judged purely against their own “type” for fairness.
The one thing that is abundantly obvious is that although there are rules and standards to be met all along the way, every judge will have their own bias of type. It is what it is. And provided they follow all judging guidelines ……
It was interesting this continual commenting re “poll high” and “overbent”. I really watched and re watched to check her points. And frequently all three had exactly the same “V” angle. And yet one was described as correct position when in fact they were all slightly out. But it was a moment in time ….
@@Golden1989-days To me, it is a lot like art or essay writing in school. If you are "the right type", and the teacher likes you, you can hardly do any wrong. If not, you can be as good as Michelangelo or Michael Ende, you will get a low grade. As a consequence, I do not watch such competitions anymore (did this very religiously in my riding school days. When I got my PRE mix, and he simply did not accept these methods, I had the options to sell him again or to change my methods. I decided to change my methods, and it was all worth it).
Thank you for your insights Sandra. I doubt if the casual watcher will ever be hooked on this spectacle, especially since they are all fired up about the horses being coerced to perform. There's going to have a be a massive U Turn somewhere in the chain. I will certainly take a look at Franziskus and report back....
Caroline, yet again another really good video, that compares and contrasts the top modern dressage horse in competition in which you have broken down, (excuse the pun) how subjective the marking and scoring of dressage tests are done. Each individual judge has their own perspective on what they are observing, and this also depends on what they like to see in a top dressage horse, as the whole ethos has changed from classical dressage to something more elevated , and in some cases more exaggerated, that is at times seen in the modern top dressage horses.
Alois Podhajsky said in his book " The complete training of Horse and Rider" with forward by Sylvia Loch, that, "The object of the classical art of riding (note that Podhajsky says riding) is to train the horse not only to be brilliant in the movements and exercises of the haute ecole but also to be quiet, supple , and obedient, and by his smooth movements to make riding a true pleasure."
Thank you Maverick. Putting them all side by side was certainly an eye opener! I can't see how the judges can mark several aspects of the component all in one hit. There must be something more at play in this system.
Carl Hester’s horse has improved greatly since he first started riding him.
I wouldn't doubt that Carole! It was interesting to me to see how much that horse's residual dynamic posture was hindering Carl's efforts to help the horse to perform to the max. It's so much easier to see these aspects when you can dissect the performance with slow motion and stills.
All horses are consistantly behind the vertical.
No
There were times when all three were behind the vertical but I observed that Becky's horse spent significantly less time behind the vertical and her horse was more supple overall.
i was led to understand that a sign of discomfort from a horse can be excessive tail swishing when there are no flies around. Jessica's horse has a very busy tail the entire time compared to the other two horses.
Yes I agree. Thank you for highlighting that.
Thank you
Dear, you are extra interesting. Thnx thnx thnx for education. It means a lot for us who have no chance to learn ,,live,,. Books are books but this is for learning and thinking. It is super you compare from different aspects, classical dressage, modern and health and well being for horses. Plz if you have time and good will to do the same with lower level of dr.tests. and thank you for simple English and not fast speed of talking. All the best. 🙏🙏🙏☀️🥂💎
Thank you! I'm going to compare the highest and lowest ranked tests shortly.
@@HorseSaddleRider jeeeeeee🥂🥂💎💎💎🍀🍀🍀🍀🪷🪷🪷🪷
+❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
This is an interesting concept of a video but using stills one cannot get an accurate sense of rhythm and movement...too analytical with not enough information....I have watched Dalera go many times and she is certainly a relaxed looking horse...she has a bit of an unusual build and way of going though...JVBW I am certain trains her with great care and softness. Her eye is very soft, so I think the order was fine. Though it is good to have these discussions.
Apologies for how it was streamed - I included both real time and slow motion and stills but the quality of streaming could have been better.
why didn't anyone point out that those horses' necks are bent at an unnatural angle? Or why they have something in their mouth that is pulling pulling their lips back so far that we can see the teeth? pain
That's the problem of subjective marking. To me I focus on the mobility of the base of the neck, which produces the quality of the movement of the head. Let's hope the meeting on Oct 1st that is presenting on the horses oral cavity helps to indicate a new way forward.
Jessica's horse has a lateral collected walk, why didn't you point that out? So many GP horses have a lateral collected walk. Moody's horse is lateral also, just not as much...Karl's horse in not lateral. In fact, I think it was in the Special, Jessica's horse was so lateral that she messed up her transition into piaffe trying to fix the lateral walk...
Well spotted but there is not enough film and not high enough quality to assess for the rhythm of the hoof beats although I agree there is not an obviously clear 4 time beat for any of them. I was more interested in the suppleness of the backs which should produce a rhythmical walk. I'm suspicious of the positioning of those saddles which may alter the timing of the footfall if the scapulae are restricted and they are uncomfortable. The walk is much better when the horses are leaving the arena on a long rein. It's not easy to achieve a 4 time beat in walk in collection. Where do you think the fault lies in them not being able to achieve a 4 time foot fall?
@@HorseSaddleRiderthank you for responding... probably lack of throughness in the back, Jessica's horse is a leg mover which means her back is not supple, Becky's horse is better, but still lateral, not as obvious why as compared to Jessica. Another reason may be lack of bend, very few people ride with enough bend while moving straight...I think this is the reason shoulder in is used to correct a lateral walk. A third reason is contact and for me this is huge. I 've been studying the following hand vs the fixed hand and I'm starting to think the fixed hand causes horses to be backed off from the bridle, in almost imperceivable ways. With the fixed hand, acting on bars or tongue, when a horse meets that hand, albeit on his own (given the hand is fixed), he will feel that pressure and react away from it, again almost imperceivably. I also think that the fixed hand drives the horse through his chest, unless the rider is really good at keeping the whither and the back up at the same time as using the hand, most people don't do this, it requires knowledge of using the seat. Being driven through the chest would cause a lateral walk IMO, maybe Becky's problem. The following lifting hand works on the lips, and the demi arret lifts the whither wo disturbing the tempo, the horse is not driven into collection, the horse is lifted into collection.
Big powerful horses can deal with the fixed hand and still seem correct, particularly since they are trained to take the bit; a horse ridden with a following hand will use the bit as a reference point ( think ballet bar) from which to develop his own self carriage wo dependence on the hand, it takes longer to train but the results are well worth it. (check this out, Pippa Callanan on the following hand),
th-cam.com/video/94nvqSIEkC4/w-d-xo.html&ab_channel=OldManWillowFarm
I would love to know what you think about contact and the various ways it is achieved, if you have time to comment any more...thank you!
Watched Becky's GPS test and in the extended walk, the horse has a tight lower back wo overtack, this probably affects the collected walk, causing a lateral walk...
Downfall of Dressage was the Kur . Double canter pirouettes , piaffe pirouettes and passage half passes are an unattractive addition .
Yes, there is no value to making the performance more complex. The spectacle of a horse moving well and a rider following harmoniously should be sufficient. The more of a circus it becomes, the more pointless it is.
horse saddle rider, could you please respond to my comment below, it is an honest question...