14:40 The contrast between carnal and spiritual love is so alien to one another. 😄 It's mindblowing the life and autonomy of each state (inferno, purgatorio, paradiso) of being. I am very curious of what is love like in paradiso. 🙂 Great canto. Thank you Tom
Thank you 🙏🏻. If you search on youtube “divina commedia lucilla giagnoni” you’ll find a series of readings by a very good Italian actress (in case you are interested!).
@@tomlabooks3263 Thank you Tom, but as a female reader I somehow hear in my mind's voice a male voice doing the reading of the mostly of the male characters. Perhaps I'm too conservative.
I found this canto a very readable one that rolled along with image and story. The acceptance of a range of sexuality was a pleasant surprise. The little burst of Occitan at the end was again a surprise but a treat. I had a good attempt at following it before turning to the notes.
@@tomlabooks3263 closer when read aloud and with a thought of present day Catalan in mind too. Not that I speak Catalan but I have been there often enough to have a sense of it.
Hi Tom , I'm playing catch-up after a holiday ....I am also interested in how candid different translations have been in this canto , reflecting their own cultural norms regarding homosexuality .....
@@tomlabooks3263 I did thanks ...although I'm finding I have less serenity now the world is more available to me ....lockdown stripped life back to its basics
@@hesterdunlop7948 Yes I think we all feel some level of disruption, whether we realize it or not. Praying that this horrible “Limbo” covid situation gets resolved soon!!
The inclusion of gay men (and probably unmentioned lesbians) in this canto was something I don't think I picked up on at all the first time I read the book in 2004. When I finally get my books out of storage, I'll have to refresh my memory with the Laurence Binyon translation. I do remember a few lines he translated with gentle euphemisms or language not really suggested even indirectly by the Italian, so as to avoid using coarse words or evoking certain images. It reminds me of how, until the late 19th century, English editions of The Decameron left the tenth story of the third day untranslated. Rereading it in the Mark Musa translation so many years later, coupled with a lot of outside study, was like a revelation. Now it's obvious how modern, nuanced, and sympathetic Dante's treatment of gay men and other minorities is. I also love how this is the only place in the entire Divine Comedy where a language other than Italian or Latin is used, for a full eight lines. It's really interesting to note how, despite Dante thinking of this language as Provençal, it was what we now know as Old Occitan, and thus distinct from the Provençal dialect within the Occitan language. I imagine Dante learnt this language in part from reading some of the Medieval epic poems which are now lost or exist only in fragments.
How much did Dante read, how intensely he loved books, and how much he would have loved something like the internet are questions that I ask myself often. His project to download “all the knowledge” into a single work, similarly to what Brunetto Latini had done with his “Tesoretto”, had to include Provencal because - to put it imprecisely - French culture has always had a great influence on Italian culture, especially in literature. I didn’t know about that Decameron novella being left untranslated, really interesting. How different Boccaccio and Dante were in terms of their personalities! You can immediately tell from their work. Anyway thanks for your interest as always , and - I hope you’ll be able to get those storage books back into your hands soon!!
I was so lost for a bit here--it took me a moment to realize, I somehow skipped over this Canto in my reading. I figured it out this morning. 😅 Anyway. I may have missed it in this explanation, and if so, I apologize, but if I remember correctly, there are souls in the Inferno for the same sin, but yet these two groups are divided....and as I am typing this out, listening again, you may have answered it haha. If I got that right, they are separated due to the reasons for the sin, one being against nature or God, and the other out of lust? Did I understand that right? Haha
The sin is the same (although no one knows precisely what he meant by sodomy), the only difference is that in hell there is no acknowledgement or repentance. This is a great canto, but one of my top 3 favorite cantos of the Divine Comedy is the next one (27)…. just magnificent.
It is quite interesting to see Dante grapple with lust and the lustfulness in others without ever reflecting on his own excesses. Had he mentioned--as you have--that his early poetry contained lustful, or excessively lusty elements, I think I would feel more involved in this moment. Having the Pilgrim as a mere spectator and listener without having him acknowledge his own immoderations (even if only in his poetry) would have been more satisfying and convincing that he was worthy to proceed. As I reflect back, this seems to be the case with the other sins as well (but maybe my memory is faulty). I think then of the word "witness" as I often hear it used in a religious context, and I wonder if the Pilgrim's witnessing all the suffering and purgation holds the power to move him ever upward. I'm just babbling on, but this has given me a lot. to think about. Thanks again for you thoughts on this.
You’re touching on a really complex topic -. it’s interesting that Dante doesn’t talk plainly about his own sin of “lust” but - since Inferno V - he’s been giving us clues and hints that he sees himself very strongly in that sin, for various reasons that we probably will never completely understand. I think for him his poetry was part of his own identity, that’s why he is so obsessed by the developments and changes that his poetic style has had during his life. At a certain point in his life, he refused to see love as the traditional “knight sees beautiful married lady next to the river and seduces her” (as he had seen it before). But who knows! This is a matter that still today has scholars climb up university walls and get into the inevitable arguments.
@@tomlabooks3263 I'd definitely pull up a chair to watch university professors climb walls--the Scholastic Olympics. Also bedeviling me (so to speak) is the idea of WORK, and that the Pilgrim never does the work of confession as the souls do. The only real work we see him do is walking, talking (but not confessing), and listening. If you ever run across any articles or information about the Pilgrim's passivity in this regard, I'd love to know.
@@TootightLautrec Yes, I’d say even if he talks about confession (the 3 steps at the entrance of Purgatory) he doesn’t confess directly to us, when he could have shared detailed anecdotes about his own life, given that he does that with other people’s lives. In his view, he WAS talking about himself, only not about daily occurrences of his life or trivial matters in the style of Boccaccio. I also have a sense that writing in the “autobiographical” style meant as we mean it today - a recollection of facts and events about your own life - was just not “a thing” in his times. But let me take a look. I’ll share whatever I can find. p.s. I just checked: under “autobiography” in Wikipedia there is a lot of great information. They reference “The Confessions” by St. Augustin as an early example, but just like Dante, St. Augustin doesn’t actually “spill any tea” about himself, and keeps very spiritual and ethereal throughout. The first actual examples of autobiographies seem to appear around the 15th century, post Dante.
Another interesting discussion.
14:40 The contrast between carnal and spiritual love is so alien to one another. 😄
It's mindblowing the life and autonomy of each state (inferno, purgatorio, paradiso) of being. I am very curious of what is love like in paradiso. 🙂
Great canto.
Thank you Tom
Thanks! Ratzinger tried to express that in his “Spe Salvi”.
The magnificent Canto XXVI of Purgatorio.
Thank you so much for these explanations and enrichments! How I'd LOVE to hear you read the whole DC in Italian!
Thank you 🙏🏻. If you search on youtube “divina commedia lucilla giagnoni” you’ll find a series of readings by a very good Italian actress (in case you are interested!).
@@tomlabooks3263 Thank you Tom, but as a female reader I somehow hear in my mind's voice a male voice doing the reading of the mostly of the male characters. Perhaps I'm too conservative.
@@fmfm9846 Haha , I guess that makes sense! Try “Vittorio Gassman Divina commedia” then. He was one of our very best actors.
@@tomlabooks3263 My mistake, she is simply astounding and rises above vocal gender. Thank you so much!
I found this canto a very readable one that rolled along with image and story. The acceptance of a range of sexuality was a pleasant surprise. The little burst of Occitan at the end was again a surprise but a treat. I had a good attempt at following it before turning to the notes.
How close did you find it to modern French? (I don’t speak French)
@@tomlabooks3263 closer when read aloud and with a thought of present day Catalan in mind too. Not that I speak Catalan but I have been there often enough to have a sense of it.
Hi Tom , I'm playing catch-up after a holiday ....I am also interested in how candid different translations have been in this canto , reflecting their own cultural norms regarding homosexuality .....
Hello Hester! I hope you had a great holiday break.
@@tomlabooks3263 I did thanks ...although I'm finding I have less serenity now the world is more available to me ....lockdown stripped life back to its basics
@@hesterdunlop7948 Yes I think we all feel some level of disruption, whether we realize it or not. Praying that this horrible “Limbo” covid situation gets resolved soon!!
The inclusion of gay men (and probably unmentioned lesbians) in this canto was something I don't think I picked up on at all the first time I read the book in 2004. When I finally get my books out of storage, I'll have to refresh my memory with the Laurence Binyon translation. I do remember a few lines he translated with gentle euphemisms or language not really suggested even indirectly by the Italian, so as to avoid using coarse words or evoking certain images. It reminds me of how, until the late 19th century, English editions of The Decameron left the tenth story of the third day untranslated.
Rereading it in the Mark Musa translation so many years later, coupled with a lot of outside study, was like a revelation. Now it's obvious how modern, nuanced, and sympathetic Dante's treatment of gay men and other minorities is.
I also love how this is the only place in the entire Divine Comedy where a language other than Italian or Latin is used, for a full eight lines. It's really interesting to note how, despite Dante thinking of this language as Provençal, it was what we now know as Old Occitan, and thus distinct from the Provençal dialect within the Occitan language. I imagine Dante learnt this language in part from reading some of the Medieval epic poems which are now lost or exist only in fragments.
How much did Dante read, how intensely he loved books, and how much he would have loved something like the internet are questions that I ask myself often. His project to download “all the knowledge” into a single work, similarly to what Brunetto Latini had done with his “Tesoretto”, had to include Provencal because - to put it imprecisely - French culture has always had a great influence on Italian culture, especially in literature.
I didn’t know about that Decameron novella being left untranslated, really interesting. How different Boccaccio and Dante were in terms of their personalities! You can immediately tell from their work.
Anyway thanks for your interest as always , and - I hope you’ll be able to get those storage books back into your hands soon!!
I was so lost for a bit here--it took me a moment to realize, I somehow skipped over this Canto in my reading. I figured it out this morning. 😅 Anyway. I may have missed it in this explanation, and if so, I apologize, but if I remember correctly, there are souls in the Inferno for the same sin, but yet these two groups are divided....and as I am typing this out, listening again, you may have answered it haha. If I got that right, they are separated due to the reasons for the sin, one being against nature or God, and the other out of lust? Did I understand that right? Haha
The sin is the same (although no one knows precisely what he meant by sodomy), the only difference is that in hell there is no acknowledgement or repentance. This is a great canto, but one of my top 3 favorite cantos of the Divine Comedy is the next one (27)…. just magnificent.
It is quite interesting to see Dante grapple with lust and the lustfulness in others without ever reflecting on his own excesses. Had he mentioned--as you have--that his early poetry contained lustful, or excessively lusty elements, I think I would feel more involved in this moment. Having the Pilgrim as a mere spectator and listener without having him acknowledge his own immoderations (even if only in his poetry) would have been more satisfying and convincing that he was worthy to proceed. As I reflect back, this seems to be the case with the other sins as well (but maybe my memory is faulty). I think then of the word "witness" as I often hear it used in a religious context, and I wonder if the Pilgrim's witnessing all the suffering and purgation holds the power to move him ever upward. I'm just babbling on, but this has given me a lot. to think about. Thanks again for you thoughts on this.
You’re touching on a really complex topic -. it’s interesting that Dante doesn’t talk plainly about his own sin of “lust” but - since Inferno V - he’s been giving us clues and hints that he sees himself very strongly in that sin, for various reasons that we probably will never completely understand. I think for him his poetry was part of his own identity, that’s why he is so obsessed by the developments and changes that his poetic style has had during his life. At a certain point in his life, he refused to see love as the traditional “knight sees beautiful married lady next to the river and seduces her” (as he had seen it before). But who knows! This is a matter that still today has scholars climb up university walls and get into the inevitable arguments.
@@tomlabooks3263 I'd definitely pull up a chair to watch university professors climb walls--the Scholastic Olympics. Also bedeviling me (so to speak) is the idea of WORK, and that the Pilgrim never does the work of confession as the souls do. The only real work we see him do is walking, talking (but not confessing), and listening. If you ever run across any articles or information about the Pilgrim's passivity in this regard, I'd love to know.
@@TootightLautrec Yes, I’d say even if he talks about confession (the 3 steps at the entrance of Purgatory) he doesn’t confess directly to us, when he could have shared detailed anecdotes about his own life, given that he does that with other people’s lives. In his view, he WAS talking about himself, only not about daily occurrences of his life or trivial matters in the style of Boccaccio. I also have a sense that writing in the “autobiographical” style meant as we mean it today - a recollection of facts and events about your own life - was just not “a thing” in his times. But let me take a look. I’ll share whatever I can find.
p.s. I just checked: under “autobiography” in Wikipedia there is a lot of great information. They reference “The Confessions” by St. Augustin as an early example, but just like Dante, St. Augustin doesn’t actually “spill any tea” about himself, and keeps very spiritual and ethereal throughout. The first actual examples of autobiographies seem to appear around the 15th century, post Dante.
Really good catch! 😮