AFR LS3 Enforcer - really great heads but less power. Why?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ต.ค. 2024
- In this, episode 136, DV explains why, in the PowerTec 10 & Unity Motorsports Garage dyno tests, a superior set of LS3 heads from AFR, made LESS HP.
This episode will be a lesson in the domino effect when performance engine modifications are considered. Watch it. For sure it will be a lesson you will rarely, if ever, see on any other performance channels.
Mr vizard I've been using cams on a 106 angle for the last 30 years 350s /383 flat solid lifter quarter mile circle track put used in quarter mile drag how about one guys with bigger motors with roller cams and higher compression my motives were on 10 to 1 compression I was even quicker than some power adder cars , some people would tell me that motor is not going to make any vacuum my response was I'm not building a vacuum cleaner , thanks for all the great information you and Andy and whoever else is involved keep up the great work ...... LONG LIVE THE KINGS .
Sorry folks got the launch a little screwed up. Hopefully sorted now.
DV
Torque flow chart?
Either way still worth waiting for M.r. Vizard
Уважаемый мистер Визард, постоянно смотрю вас. Огромнейший объем знаний и прекрасная подача материала! Нашел много ответов на свои вопросы. Подскажите каким образом можно купить вашу программу? Я и России
You know since we are talking LSA...Power Nation did a hot street and stroker 305 build that produced really good numbers the other week. So i used DV's 128 formula and the cams were spot on the formula. The 305 made 416 hp while the stroker made 500+. I think there was some bruised egos after that show aired lol.
Yep, for both displacements.
You are the Man. I know and you know no matter what the AFR are better heads. Sometimes variables mess things up but I applaud you for not letting it stop here and giving them another chance.
Thanks for imparting your wisdom to us all!
I thought the AFR head would prefere a tighter LSA and more lift. That factory ls3 head is hard to beat.we use them on the 6.0 blocks for the strength of the iron,this leaves a ledge because the chamber on the ls3 head is wider than the bore. The AFR head will cure this mismatch on the smaller 4 inch bore. That will be another benefit with that app.
Sorry DV . The video did not come up on any notifications. I had to go to your channel and had to select community to see it. Learning from you I predicted that LCA was the problem. Knowing most LS cam companies are selling mostly wide LCA cams. Thanks for the video.
There seems to be a lot of problems with TH-cam lately😡. I had to upload one video four times before it actually showed the correct one😡.
Looking forward to seeing the test results with your custom cam. Always enjoy these projects and learning new things.
Thanks David, get well soon, I know about health problems myself 😊!
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻This is going to be good. Everyone that says LSA is an output not input is going to lose their minds.
The folk you mention need to watch episode 85 of PowerTec 10 where it conclusively proves otherwise. Not from opinions and old tech but from state of art dyno tests over a 3 year period.
How is a LSA calculated? It’s from the centreline angles of the intake and exhaust lobes, so it is an output really, you can have many different intake and exhaust centrelines that’s calculate out to exactly the same LSA
110/110 = 110LSA
108/112 = 110LSA
106/114 = 110LSA
And so on with any combination of angles in between, they will all perform differently even with the same LSA.
@@seanb250you're confusing terminology.
@@hotrodray6802 please clarify for me.
Great info DV I hope you and Andy make a video at the track after cam swap thanks and keep up the good work
Thanks David and Andy
This is a great project and through it all the tech you’re providing is really great.
Good day Mr. V. I'm very familiar with your Torque Master program . I've also used it in reverse for engineering dissection as you commented on not to mention hours spent and saving various engine combinations.
When I was looking for a cam for my 357 10.2 :1 Gen 1 SBC, I ran through several iterations. Then on the advice of many, including your own, I went to Jones Cams for a specification. Once the vehicle's ultimate purpose was sorted, you probably wouldn't be surprised at how the TM spec and Jones' played out. Skinny z. By the way, you've a PM waiting on your Speed-Talk forum.
Hi DV, 3 questions that have been bugging me for a while after watching your videos. 1. Fueling for power, on standard factory efi fueling for my car it is not until the higher rpms at wot where the fueling gets to about 12.5:1. Andy was commenting on a carb a few weeks ago that was 12.5:1 at wot no matter the rpm. Which is better?
2. High compression engines on pump gas, when the compression is high how can we control detonation? Is it just ignition timing?
3. Cam LCA My engine ford Barra i6 4.0 has VCT on both intake and exhaust. I used your formula for LCA and more torque was found. Very happy. But now I have more questions. As I can modify the LCA for all rpms I've noticed that an even tighter LCA works at low RPM and your formula gives best results for high rpms (though still more torque than standard at low rpm). How does the overlap affect the exhaust valves overtime? Do they run cooler or hotter? Are there more temperature changes leading to metal fatigue when running more overlap?
Thanks for the great tech I really appreciate the thought and effort you put into your vids.
AH
Thanks!
Thanks very much Mr. v8packard sir.
Very much interested in the results DV
Great Video David , you make us read between the lines.... perfect thanks
That looks like valve train harmonics issue. Not a cylinder head itself issue
Video is unlisted, only way to get to it is through community post link
Thanks for another informative video . T-shirt would be cool
Can you review the Smeding performance 11° LS3 cylinder head? It is suppossed to outperform the the AFR 260's.
Also, the effects of compression differences on an LS3 engine for pump gas? These would be welcome ideas!
Definately would like and wear one of those shirts. 2xl
Please retest the factory cylinder heads with the 107-108 lsa cam. Gotta keep your results honest.
Alot of guys for almost a decade after they came out tried running 110-112 in them and they were ass. They'd dyno ok, and have garbage part throttle power. Then they started widening them and they started making more power and not being dogs outside of WOT. It may be different now. I jumped out of LS cars for a while
@@garlandjones7709
We are not racing dynos 👍👍
@@hotrodray6802 no you're not... and LS3 heads are insanely sensitive to reversion and having too much overlap, but those tight lsa cams will dyno good. And they'll run like ass.... or at least they used to be that way. Hard for me to imagine it's changed much.
My references were with stock style intakes and L92/LS3 heads. AFRs may make an attempt to curb that with areas inside the port. I've not used them.
Yep this is why you’re the man. A short list of TH-cam channels/sources that I consider real deal legitimate. It was a back to back test, but not necessarily a fair one. That’s a big difference
David I can not find anyone to provide your cam master program - I am more than willing to pay for the extra charges - Please, please provide the info who should I call to get my cam design? You are the greatest and in fact I am in the middle of three of your books while I am building my 400 SBC Promaxx Project X heads 2.08 valve true 10.4 / 1 compression -- I want the best cam possible for my hot street strip build I am figuring a 105 LCA with approx 40 to 42 degrees overlap? This senior citizen needs your help! Who do i call?
Call Mike Jones
Please hurry with the mild porting and bigger intake valves ,,, ! ,,, and don't be shy if you have to move a guide , or replace the exhaust seats ,,, !
I'll take a shirt for sure
Hi David I’m very interested to see how the heads go with the different cam. It would be great if you could do more LS videos. I’m also interested to know if the 128 formula works for LS motors or not. Because I think you said the stock heads a 114 lca was close to been correct. I have a LS3 which is stock using that formula with 10.7:1 cr and 1.7 rr it suggests it should be 109 lca.
Most cams are sold for street cars. Street cars need reasonably good behaviors which I think comes primarily down to degrees of overlap. So your LSA is limited by that.
LSA then decide the overlap which dictates the duration.
I want say thank you for sharing your incredible insight with us. Your knowledge is off the charts!
I would like to ask, what are the determining factors on whether or not a cam is compatible with an oem ecu? Specifically, an 02 Dodge 1/2 ton.
Thanks in advance.
Testing a different lsa will not be conclusive unless the lobes are identical to the originals. Even if you can do that, which lobe will get moved? Or will you move both? IVC and EVO points are the difference makers and indicators IMO
Thank you Dave!
DV, could you talk to LSA and tourqe production? Working with a large ci small block Ford that has to move a lot of weight so making power as low in the RPM as I can is the goal. Thanks, keep up the great work!
I Like Love Tight LCA Camshafts in Pontiac V8 engines.
Thanks for sharing.
So the AFR plateaus at an rpm a bunch earlier because the LSA is too wide ? Seems illogical to me. Looks like something else at play imo.
So are you going to do another test comparing the AFR heads to stock LS3 with the new cam in a back to back test again? That part was a little unclear.
No not really. We have done so many cam tests that with the time constraint we are going straight to something close or right on optimum and dyno with the AFR heads.
@@DavidVizardlooking forward to the next video. Can you talk to difference in overlap between the cans and ivc and the impact on cylinder pressure? All very interesting. Keep up the excellent work
DV, great stuff as always. Question, one of the forum members reached out to Stan about an LS version of the cam program. He was told there were no plans of doing an LS version. Has this changed?
T-shirt with logo looks goods. When will they be ready? Regards
be interesting to get your thoughts revisiting A series engine cams, given how much your research has moved on.
So a head that flows more than stock, better discharge coefficient than stock, better velocity than stock and above average port energy can’t out power the stock head on the same cam? David, if you have identified the superior head is only superior with the right LSA then you owe it to your viewers to explain why all the metrics evaluated on the head are pointless without it being used with specific valve events. You say it’s the wrong cam because of valve size difference but again, where do those other head evaluation metrics come into it if it comes down to valve size? We know from here you will change the cam for one that is designed to enhance midrange torque and say “told you so, these heads wanted a different cam”. If you are a research engineer then you know the stock heads MUST be tested with the new cam to verify the hypothesis that it’s the wide lsa killing the superior head. Otherwise it’s a pointless test designed for you to write your own narrative.
Narrative? The guy has dyno tested more head/cam combos than anyone else.
I agree with Jamie.
@@moabman6803he has dynotested more than he has had time to dynotest.
@@moabman6803no he hasn’t
@WeingartnerRacing Absolutely he has. David has many thousands of dyno runs behind him.
At the end of the day the big valve head made the most top end power and the small valve head made more down low with the same cam, that's what you'd normally expect to see. th-cam.com/video/kIehGSsHIyc/w-d-xo.html.
Hi David, I'd love a shirt. Hope all is well.
👍😎
C O M B I N A T I O N
What camshaft was in this engine when the cylinder head comparksln was made, and why was this not mentioned?
Its obviously not stock
Is there an adjustment to the 128 formula to find the right LSA for a very low rpm torque engine?
Compression ratio 9.25:1
Producing max torque in the 2500-2600 range; redline 2700 RPM.
Building three of them for this rpm range and CR.
402 cu in, 638 cu in, and 720 cu in.
Yes, TorqueMaster will cover from 1500 rpm to, if appropriate, 10,000 rpm
DV
Thanks
2,700 rpm??? Why so low?
@@lynnrunningdeer7364towing would be my guess.
@@lynnrunningdeer7364 Best fuel mileage.
I would like one of those t-shirts, size Large,please. I'would really like a sticker or two as well, if you got?
Do you ship to Norway?
On that set up it was down on power for roughly 17mph on the run up through. The car will be quicker, over the previous spec, already
LSA - Have her ground King David
Then we shall see the Beast:)
So alot of people need the right specified camshaft for there engines you say that you have a camshaft program to calculate the right camshaft? so where is the program are copies available to buy or do you spec out camshafts for people thanks.
I always mull over whether I could gain noticeable power gains over the rev range of my street 10.2:1 sbf 331 with 190cc (2.02/1.60 valved) heads that flow 250 @ .500 lift, cam 216/224 @ .050… on 112 LSA w/ 4 degrees advance ground in. Going to a 108 LSA would net me 20 lb ft torque?
I'd bet it.
Torque flow chart??
I actually calculate the best torque lobe separation angle of 113 degrees, with an intake centerline of 110-111 degrees for a 6.2 with the AFR LS3 Enforcer.
A t shirt would be interesting.
What are you using to determine optimum icl and ecl?
@@garlandjones7709 With this style of head I have learned that advancing the cam 2 to 3 degrees gives best torque naturally aspirated with stock ratiorockers, if the lobe separation angle is correct. Testing backs this up. If you run a 1.8 rocker, expect to find best torque with the cam straight up, or even a degree retarded.
@@v8packard i assumed you were using a program or a formula for that.
Based off what you just stated, if you're finding power gains from advancing camshafts you're purchasing then you're valve events are off to begin with. You're either crutching an intake lobe too large, or an exhaust lobe too small or really bad exhaust systems.
If the rocker increase is causing you to make more power without advancing it's pointing to your exhaust lobe or system being the issue.
@@garlandjones7709 I use a few different programs and methods to determine timing points, lobe separation angle and overlap. With respect to retarding the intake centerline when using 1.8 vs 1.7 rockers, I think it's because of the change in area to the overlap triangle. Or specifically how the engine sees that.
I don't use off the shelf grinds. And with these heads I consistently get better results with the ICL advanced 2-3 degrees versus the 4 - 6 degrees usually found in shelf cams. On turbo engines I run them straight up, to start with.
@@v8packard are you advancing them manually with the timing set or are they being sent to you with the advance ground into them?
Would your engine program help me out building 2.3 Ford SOHC race engine? Along with your cam program? Or is it ment for V8 engines more? Thanks for you time Mr D. V.
Cody I have not done much with that motor but as we speak???? I am just about to flow test an Esslinger aluminum head with extensive work. Video should be out in a couple of weeks. DV
Tempo HSC combusion chambers and Ranger 8 spark plug heads are cool.
I got a cast iron D-port closed combustion chamber Head that has a roller cam shaft solded lifters been ported it runs very hard up to about 8,000-8,200 RPM when I got it done they said it would smoke a esslinger D-port aluminum head if you want to test flow numbers against something your more then welcome to do any testing or improvements you feel like need to be done Not trying to get free work done here I am not a rich man but i can pay for your time if you wanted to make any changes to it. And really I would be honored for you to even look at something of mine when I was younger one of your books at a swap meet in Portland, OR. Is what got me into racing and really being interested in engines and everything to do with them at about age 11-12 years old I am now 37 years old and still can't get enuff info. Mom didn't like me circle track racing untill I started winning a bit and won the track championship the 2-3 year of racing and making things a little bit better researching and finding little things here and their. Anyway thank you very much for all your videos and all the information you share with everyone thanks to Andy as well and let me know if that something you would be interested in doing and if not I understand as well. And take care of your health the world need your wisdom thanks you for everything you do for the motor sports industry and what you have done for me making my interest being racing and race engines It has brought me a lot of joy and great times..
@codymyers
8386
Don't forget it's not just flow but swirl and spark placement.
I have an Essy D port (as cast other than me cleaning up around the guides VERY lightly).... I'm not sure what to with it at this point... Car is an '87 "notch" Mustang, c4, 3:73 8.8 .... and it was around 2700lbs with an iron headed 2.3 with a Holset HY35...
I started building a "new" 2300 for it a few years back... I bought a nice used 50k mile block, it was bored .030 with a torque plate, decked (to clean it up... no "specific" height), I put it on the bridgeport, milled drilled and tapped and installed the "Honda oil squirters", etc... block is on a stand with a good fresh crank. Set up a crank trigger (36-1) and coil packs for it this time around, using MSD DIS2 box and MS3
THEN - it happened. my daily driver Accord was totaled, and I thought to myself (boy, those K24s sure seem to make a LOT of power easily and reliably.... why am I wasting all of this $$$ on a "dinosaur" that may or may not blow up at 400rwp without good rods?)
I don't know.... Without writing a novel. Anyone else see where I'm going with my thoughts? ...and care to share theirs? I yanked the K24 out the other day and junked the Accord. It's in GREAT shape (the motor, not the car! lmao) I just want to get this Mustang back on the track (and road). But, do I build the Honda motor and put that in it, or continue dumping money, (that I REALLY don't have!) on the inferior 1970s motor?
Richard Holdener did a test of lsa with ls3 heads with 2.165" intake valves. Testing 108, 112 and 120 lsa with same lobes on each cam. The 108 came out on top everywhere. Why would the 108 lsa not benefit these stock valve size heads the same?
th-cam.com/video/JUHwVCDjonU/w-d-xo.htmlsi=gzsLpte2hzvKK517
Take a look at Unity Motorsports comment in the comment section of Richard's video and DV knows this.
I prefer tight over loose also.
Just as a cheeky reminder it's what the engine prefers not the engine builder. Apologies if this sounds blunt.
Cheers
DV
When you can make 800 hp with a $400 junkyard LS and a $400 VS racing turbo none of this matters anymore.
Yes it does when you can make 800 without a turbo is a big deal no lag, tuning is easy and if you want to turbo your power jumps way more
What would happen. If you advance 4dergres s on the destructor would that in prove power ?
So David you mentioned S10 bur one thing I was wondering is your S10 a 4.3 V6 or are doing a V8 so thanks for listening.
Modified LS based V8
How versatile is this cam program you have written? I have a 1969 Chevy 292 I6 with 12Bolt Tom’s tunnel ram and cast iron dual exhaust manifolds. The head also has 12Bolt Tom’s lumps. The valves are being upgraded to Erson 1.94 valves and springs for .530 lift. Which are also from 12Bolt Tom. If you’re cam selection program is isn’t the way to proceed, what’s my next right step?
Program includes several different parameters to make a recommendation.
Are you going to run the new 107°/108° cam on the stock heads so we can see another comparison? 🤠
Watch the video again~
@@DavidVizard ok
Will a larger port with more cc have faster or slower air volisity??
Slower, generally speaking. Balance is key. How slow is too slow? How fast is too fast?
Remember those monster Cleveland heads that made great rpm power but sucked for street ability?
Who drives around at 6000 rpm?
Is there a program out there, somewhere, that I can put into my computer so I can run different engine simulations with different cams?
Torque Master program David Vizard Stan Weiss
@@Twogreenfeet thanks
🥝✔️
Put some fresh gasoline in.
DV; I have your program. Please advise me how to get data for more engine and cam types than my current version supports. v/r wh