This might seem minor but it is truly refreshing to see a channel where they make the effort to pronounce all names and concepts correctly in whatever language.
Molto interessante!... Il bello di questo trattato, che la vostra spiegazione rende così bene, è che non si tratta di pura teoria, ma di una ricerca pratica, che la teoria viene a chiarire e indirizzare... Si apprezza in sintesi non il Professore ma il Maestro d'Arte!!
Thank you for these great series of videos! And for everything you do to bring up fundamental theoretical aspects :) By a chance, at 11:30, shouldn't first 'd' chord be 8 instead of 10? Thank you!
don't understand why he says that in measure 3 there is a diminished fifth in the chord when in measure 1 he puts an 'f sharp. minute 18:42. Does someone have an Idea why?
The name of the book on the cover is centred and justified such as to form Dante's inferno, according to the famous painting, and has nine layers (lines - the bottom marker and the intro to the title don't count.) hhhrrrmmmmmmm.
It never ceases to amaze me what an expansive trove of knowledge this channel is! Thank you so much for sharing your work and passion through this project!
I wonder how much work this gentleman has put to make these videos. Aside from the historical job the quality of his videos is superb as well as his explanations. I am pretty sure that his lessons are countless times superior than those that are commonly given in art schools. Thank you very much!
I totally agree! Best channel! (Well, 'Open Studio' to me seems equally great - in the realm of Jazz!) It's incredible, how much work and ingenuity he/they put in these treasures of videos! In defense of academia, I might say, that at college, by studying the full manuscripts yourself, you learn how to read, analyze, interpret, evaluate and finally teach to your fellow students (maybe in video format) the content of those historical documents that still prove to be of great relevance to contemporary musicians and composers (and many more topics, that, at first glance, might not seem useful, at all). But truly, there are few teachers/professors/doctores/lecturers as inspiring and motivating as Elam Rotem and his fellow creators!
Now, that I've mentioned the 'Open Studio' Jazz channel, I must also make mention of 'Valerio Silvestro', who is a not only a great musician/composer but also a formidable teacher! Most of his videos are in Italian. Some are in English. I use his Italian videos with either Italian or English subs to freshen up my Italian...
For an irrelevant and completely unrelated piece of information, the man portrayed at 1:22 is not the Spanish composer Antonio de Cabezón, but the Genoese general Ambrogio Spinola (1569-1630).
I'm beginning to really like de Santa Maria's approach, particularly the degree of thoroughness. I agree that the unplayable chords at 11:54 do seem like he's going to the theoretical limits; were I tasked with writing such a work (a simultaneously enviable endeavour and unenviably massive undertaking), I'd probably want to include such examples for somewhat humorous effect: "These guidelines mean we could even do this, were it not for the fact that no single human keyboardist could realize it". I disagree with 12:03, that the chords were unsingable. The low D would certainly be a challenge, would call for a special voice, and a composer would be wise to reserve it for very specific circumstances for dramatic effect, but that is exactly how Heinrich Schütz uses this very note a century later in "Saul, Saul, was verfolgst du mich?". Granted, performance practices and expectations had changed significantly in the intervening years, and German traditions would have likewise differed from Iberian and Italian, but it seems quite plausible that de Santa Maria would have been aware of basso profundo singers and their capabilities.
By all means I'd avoid using the term 'harmony', 'harmonisation', as it's all about intervals, either horizontal or vertical. This is our problem being basically trained in classical harmony nowadays. But the harmonic aspect comes out more clearly when you realise the rest of the Santa Maria's title: "…para Vihuela, y todo instrumento, en que se pudiere tañer a tres, y a quarto vozes…". On the vihuela and just emerging 'renaissance' guitar the possibilities are much more limited and often resulting in so called "chord shapes", very useful in less complicated or lighter music. From here to the baroque 'continuo' is a much shorter distance, and the vihuela/lute or guitar contribution to the phenomenon is much overlooked. Vide Malvezzi's Intermedii of 1589 and that famous lady from (Spanish) Naples with her guitar… ;)
These videos are wonderful!!! As an adult music student that finds so many dense, hard-to-understand materials that always suppose you already know a lot, these videos, while still demanding knowledge, present concepts in a simple, straightfoward manner.
10ths (and even 12ths) above the lowest bass notes (CDE) are not at all unplayable, due of the prevalence of the short octave keyboard and (often) smaller keys. Cheers!
Here’s the book: imslp.org/wiki/Arte_de_Ta%C3%B1er_Fantasia_(Santamar%C3%ADa%2C_Tom%C3%A1s)#Naxos In Spanish and features archaic notation. Buena suerte!
I got me two textbooks on polyphony, you know, for the conservatoire students. Overcomplicated explanations, ungainly terminology, often pointless exercises. This comparatively short video beats them both. I've learned more about composition from it than from months of studies.
Your vid would be a thousand times better if you sounded on the piano what we are seeing written, if not its just words and you are not teaching music, cause music is sound. You can do it, I'm sure.
I am learning composition, and I would love to learn and study this treatise - so can I buy a an English translation (and modernized) from any where? If so where or from any website? I would love to learn from this so if you could please help me to find a good modern English copy - then please let me know. Thank you.
Santa Maria's distingtion of Intervalls between different Octaves is right, from an scientific piont of view, because: The overtone-sounds overlap in a different way, according to the Octave in which one plays a particular Note, so the quality of the tone is, by logical means, different. Meaning: An "A" with 440 Hz, an "A" with 880 Hz and an "A" with 1760 Hz may all be called by the same letter, but the individual formant frequencies (= Overtones) the Instrument emits, when sounding a paticular Frequency, are different, depending on the Octave the Note is played in and thus has to be treated in a different manner. It matters in which Octave and also on which instrument a chosen Note is played on, because the formant frequencies, which differ accordingly, are also the factor, by which one can distinguish the sounds of instruments. So taking the Octave into perspective makes sense.
this is really profound, as someone raised in the post-Rameau period this type of thinking is very hard to imagine- it certainly seems more in tune with how composers and performers though back then though...
I'm reading a book on counterpoint currently, and yes it is an intimidating subject. But I will have to try add parts according to the rules described here, seems much more intuitive 👍
I really love your channel. Its so informative, interesting and I really appreciate your effort on the style and high quality sound samples! Keep up the good work!
Note to self: 7:56 Counting intervals above and below a sustained note 11:10 The 10 different ways of ascending and descending stepwise in consonant chords 12:15 A 3-step progression (F-G-A); Harmonised 14:13 All audio examples of the different intervals used to harmonize F-G-A 17:55 Harmonizing a 5-step melodic progression from E to B (soprano)
A great video and treatise, may you know it. But on which harpsichord was the intro jingle recorded and with which stops? And, be it not too much to ask, is there sheet music of that? Thank you.
I know this is out of your period of research, but do you have any thoughts on metronome markings, especially the origins of double beat VS single beat theory (made popular by wim winters) in early music sources (if it exists)
15:02 "...odd and refreshing at the same time." Indeed - it is an exhilarating thing to listen contrapuntally, and the most exciting music is contrapuntal.
En la época del renacimiento y del barroco, todos los instrumentos estaban afinados a una frecuencia alrededor de lo que para nosotros sería medio tono abajo de lo normal. no recuerdo la frecuencia exacta, pero cabe mencionar que se supone que las frecuencias del sonido siempre van en aumento indefinido, por lo que algunas orquestas ya han comenzado a afinar el La a más de 440 Hz. P. Ej. 450 Hz Es un tema muy interesante.
Is a fourth also considered dissonant measured from the highest voice? or just the bass I guess it should be, otherwise Santa Maria would consider it a consonance
At least according Fux's rules only the arithmetic fourth is considered dissonant. So the 4th in c g c' between g and c' would be consonant because there is a 5th (c g) beneath it. The 4th in G c g would however be dissonant since the 4th lacks a fifth beneath it (C G). I would imagine the same applies here. After all if this 4th you mentioned was banned then you could never have an inner voice take the 5th whilst the melody is an 8.va above the base.
@@JT-jt2id yeah can't prohibit a standard closed chord. so it's about if the interval is supported by notes beneath it. Ok I was reading about how overtones determine "primary" consonances and the intervals between the overtones are "secondary" consonances, which seems straightforward to me, since the overtones have to be consonant or all music would be dissonant. Then all other intervals are dissonant. The fourth is interesting though, since it depends on the context whether it is considered consonant or not
@@spoderman15 I guess I should amend my comment by mentioning that an arithmetic 4th in a 63 chord generally works so e g c would work because the 4th is considered to be softened. 64 or g c e would not work because the 4th is against the bass. So 4th are dissonant in all 2 voice textures but can be considered as imperfect consonances in middle and upper voices with the harmonic 4th being the most pleasing 4th of all.
I find this kind of analysis useless by its very nature. It's way too specific about detailing every single note and interval and it's variants that it is no simpler than simply learning practicing and actually becoming familiar with voicing chords on your own. The point of a music theory should be to actually point to GENERALITIES and CONNECTIONS you can say about things that actually HELP with understanding concepts, not simply laying out every single detail of every single possible concept and expecting students to memorize it all
The idea here is to try and understand how composers from the 16th century (in this case, specifically Thomas de Santa Maria) saw things, and how theoretical concepts were taught back then.
@@EarlyMusicSources Well yea sure, I get that is what you're doing on this channel here and I appreciate someone is preserving and spreading the history of these things, but that doesn't mean I won't criticize the validity or usefulness
This kind of reminds me of the jazz students that would make a fuss about supposed V9 chords in our baroque theory classes. It doesn't matter to the professor or anything that it's "actually" a V9 chord, we don't care about that, we care what the composer was thinking about and how they thought of things, because that is infinitely more useful for us than the idea of contextually independent "universal music theory". The point of this video is not to say that this is a "better" way of looking at things, just that this is one way musicians conceptualized harmony, that is very useful to know about if you are going to be realizing figured bass in a historically informed performance context. Otherwise, it isn't so much historically informed.
Quasi tutto corretto ma al minuto 4:50 le "Two classes of consonances" risultano invertite le consonanze perfette con le consonanze imperfette, naturalmente adottando il temperamento mesotonico completo ovvero 11 quinte -1/4 C, le consonanze perfette sono le terze maggiori definite comunemente "terze celesti", ma forse si è sbagliato lo stesso Thomas de Santa Maria, grazie.
Every current theory book that mentions perfect and imperfect consonances makes the same classification today as the one that appears in the video. ;-)
In words we can say everything and the contrary of everything but only with the following numerical relationships are the following consonances unambiguous: 2/1; 3/2; 4/3; 5/4, that is: octave, pythagorean fifth, pythagorean fourth, third major mesotonic renaissance. In pure mesotonic temperament only the eighth and major thirds that gravitate on natural tones are pure. (If math is not an opinion)
@@francobandera Music is not science. And because of that, it's full of cultural consensus and not only full of numbers. By the way, in your nunerical proportions list: where do the imperfect consonances start? Where do the disonances start? Where are those limits? Numbers don't show that. Music is, in an enormous proportion, tradition. And, for me, it's more about that than about phytagorian numerology. The last one doesn't reflect the musical practice. For some things it fits; for some other things it doesn't. I'd be cautious with orthodoxy in music. And with the numerology in music. Being orthodox with numbers in music you can't produce any remarkable piece of art. Masterworks have a large quantity of numerical proportions but they're not only that. Anyway it was okay in the video. It reflects Santa María's thaughts, so being also orthodox, the video is correct in that issue in every word. Music, and also life, is more than numbers. Luckily. ;-)
The definition of perfect consonance for the fifth and the imperfect consonance for the third major is a heritage of the medieval era when the Pythagorean temperament was the most widespread, in the Pythagorean temperament this definition is correct but in the Renaissance period there are three different temperaments such as: Natural (for human voices only) all the chords are perfect consonances; Pure Meantone (harpsichord and organ) the major third is pure, celestial, therefore perfect but the fifth is impure, therefore imperfectly narrow; Equal (lute, vihuela) in this case all the chords, excluding the octave, are slightly dissonant and the fifth is more consonant than the third but both are imperfect. This is the story of the primordial heritage that has remained until today.
and hidden fifth in the last measure between bass and soprano. I hear these rules verbally but when i listen it sounds good. I dont get it. Is it just pedantic rule making?
@@michaelperkins8078 Hidden fifth is permitted if one of the voices moves by a second (although some treatises say minor second only). If it appears between lower and upper parts it's only good if the second is in the upper part. So here it's not forbidden. ;-)
16:30 I'll admit I'm a bit lost on what exactly is meant by leaving the mode here - I'm not sure what the mode is, or what the soft/hard hexachords are, and what is meant by notes improper to the mode.
This might seem minor but it is truly refreshing to see a channel where they make the effort to pronounce all names and concepts correctly in whatever language.
Molto interessante!... Il bello di questo trattato, che la vostra spiegazione rende così bene, è che non si tratta di pura teoria, ma di una ricerca pratica, che la teoria viene a chiarire e indirizzare... Si apprezza in sintesi non il Professore ma il Maestro d'Arte!!
I discovered that if, for some rare circumstances, I were to travel in time and land in 1560, I would still understand Spanish, that's interesting.
Muito obrigado! The exemples are fantastic and applicable on the guitarra! Thank you, excelent work!
Excellent, Elam! Thanks for such a clear and interesting video!
Fantastic lecture, as all here!
Congratulations! I think it's a very important treatise, as important as Zarlino's one.
All videos full of important musical issues. Thanks a lot. And I am waiting eagerly to videos about ricercari, canzones and fugues.
Thank you, new to the channel. Great quality!
Fault number 2 sounds like some very nice modal interchange in my opinion
Thank you for these great series of videos! And for everything you do to bring up fundamental theoretical aspects :)
By a chance, at 11:30, shouldn't first 'd' chord be 8 instead of 10?
Thank you!
Indeed! The error is mentioned in the info of the video as well as on the footnote page.
@@EarlyMusicSources Looks like I'd spend lots of interesting hours on your channel. Thank you again!
I enjoyed it!
Brilliant video!
Although, at 12:25, shouldn't it be named not Ut, but Fa note?
don't understand why he says that in measure 3 there is a diminished fifth in the chord when in measure 1 he puts an 'f sharp.
minute 18:42.
Does someone have an Idea why?
Great content and very nicely presented . Do you know of any user friendly version ( updated version) of this work ? Thank you!
The name of the book on the cover is centred and justified such as to form Dante's inferno, according to the famous painting, and has nine layers (lines - the bottom marker and the intro to the title don't count.) hhhrrrmmmmmmm.
The odd combinations sound nice actually 😈
Hope you do a follow-up to this. On Gesualdo...
Can you PLEASE make an episode about Renaissance/Baroque dances?
Pleaaaaase.
It never ceases to amaze me what an expansive trove of knowledge this channel is! Thank you so much for sharing your work and passion through this project!
I wonder how much work this gentleman has put to make these videos. Aside from the historical job the quality of his videos is superb as well as his explanations. I am pretty sure that his lessons are countless times superior than those that are commonly given in art schools. Thank you very much!
I totally agree! Best channel! (Well, 'Open Studio' to me seems equally great - in the realm of Jazz!) It's incredible, how much work and ingenuity he/they put in these treasures of videos! In defense of academia, I might say, that at college, by studying the full manuscripts yourself, you learn how to read, analyze, interpret, evaluate and finally teach to your fellow students (maybe in video format) the content of those historical documents that still prove to be of great relevance to contemporary musicians and composers (and many more topics, that, at first glance, might not seem useful, at all). But truly, there are few teachers/professors/doctores/lecturers as inspiring and motivating as Elam Rotem and his fellow creators!
Now, that I've mentioned the 'Open Studio' Jazz channel, I must also make mention of 'Valerio Silvestro', who is a not only a great musician/composer but also a formidable teacher! Most of his videos are in Italian. Some are in English. I use his Italian videos with either Italian or English subs to freshen up my Italian...
For an irrelevant and completely unrelated piece of information, the man portrayed at 1:22 is not the Spanish composer Antonio de Cabezón, but the Genoese general Ambrogio Spinola (1569-1630).
I'm beginning to really like de Santa Maria's approach, particularly the degree of thoroughness. I agree that the unplayable chords at 11:54 do seem like he's going to the theoretical limits; were I tasked with writing such a work (a simultaneously enviable endeavour and unenviably massive undertaking), I'd probably want to include such examples for somewhat humorous effect: "These guidelines mean we could even do this, were it not for the fact that no single human keyboardist could realize it".
I disagree with 12:03, that the chords were unsingable. The low D would certainly be a challenge, would call for a special voice, and a composer would be wise to reserve it for very specific circumstances for dramatic effect, but that is exactly how Heinrich Schütz uses this very note a century later in "Saul, Saul, was verfolgst du mich?". Granted, performance practices and expectations had changed significantly in the intervening years, and German traditions would have likewise differed from Iberian and Italian, but it seems quite plausible that de Santa Maria would have been aware of basso profundo singers and their capabilities.
What an interesting perspective on harmony!
By all means I'd avoid using the term 'harmony', 'harmonisation', as it's all about intervals, either horizontal or vertical. This is our problem being basically trained in classical harmony nowadays. But the harmonic aspect comes out more clearly when you realise the rest of the Santa Maria's title: "…para Vihuela, y todo instrumento, en que se pudiere tañer a tres, y a quarto vozes…". On the vihuela and just emerging 'renaissance' guitar the possibilities are much more limited and often resulting in so called "chord shapes", very useful in less complicated or lighter music. From here to the baroque 'continuo' is a much shorter distance, and the vihuela/lute or guitar contribution to the phenomenon is much overlooked. Vide Malvezzi's Intermedii of 1589 and that famous lady from (Spanish) Naples with her guitar… ;)
Im currently studying counterpoint, so watching this video is incredibly helpful. Thanks!
But I love "leaving the mode"
These videos are wonderful!!! As an adult music student that finds so many dense, hard-to-understand materials that always suppose you already know a lot, these videos, while still demanding knowledge, present concepts in a simple, straightfoward manner.
Counterpoint was my favorite subject in university. Your presentation is a wonderful snapshot of a fascinating and profound topic. Thank you.
Very very nice and instructive, but I thimk in 15:56 is "fa"(F) against "si" (B), the diminished fifth... Like and subscibed!
10ths (and even 12ths) above the lowest bass notes (CDE) are not at all unplayable, due of the prevalence of the short octave keyboard and (often) smaller keys. Cheers!
¡Fascinante, la explicación es muy clara! Muchas gracias . Gracias al Dr. Alon Chav que nos remitió a usted.
A wonderfully interesting video! I'm so very pleased to have found this channel.
Here’s the book: imslp.org/wiki/Arte_de_Ta%C3%B1er_Fantasia_(Santamar%C3%ADa%2C_Tom%C3%A1s)#Naxos In Spanish and features archaic notation. Buena suerte!
I got me two textbooks on polyphony, you know, for the conservatoire students. Overcomplicated explanations, ungainly terminology, often pointless exercises. This comparatively short video beats them both. I've learned more about composition from it than from months of studies.
Is there any way to get an English translation of this treatise that isn’t $900?
Your channel is amazing. Congratulations
Thank you for another great video!!!
Can you do an analysis on the piece called" Sonata sopra la monica" or the ciaccona please?
More counterpoint, more counterpoint and more counterpoint. This was great.
Very interesting lecture.Thank you!
Simply fantastic, thank you so much
Your channel is marvelous.
Why did you refer to B (Si) as Mi (E) ?
Your vid would be a thousand times better if you sounded on the piano what we are seeing written, if not its just words and you are not teaching music, cause music is sound. You can do it, I'm sure.
what?
illuminante, grazie davvero!
❤💛
Thank you for an outstandingly good presentation - a model of how to make a complex topic clear and accessible.
Is there an English-language biography of Santa Maria?
Yes - check the footnote page
I am learning composition, and I would love to learn and study this treatise - so can I buy a an English translation (and modernized) from any where? If so where or from any website? I would love to learn from this so if you could please help me to find a good modern English copy - then please let me know. Thank you.
See details here: www.earlymusicsources.com/youtube/consonances
Great video.
Santa Maria's distingtion of Intervalls between different Octaves is right, from an scientific piont of view, because:
The overtone-sounds overlap in a different way, according to the Octave in which one plays a particular Note, so the quality of the tone is, by logical means, different.
Meaning: An "A" with 440 Hz, an "A" with 880 Hz and an "A" with 1760 Hz may all be called by the same letter, but the individual formant frequencies (= Overtones) the Instrument emits, when sounding a paticular Frequency, are different, depending on the Octave the Note is played in and thus has to be treated in a different manner.
It matters in which Octave and also on which instrument a chosen Note is played on, because the formant frequencies, which differ accordingly, are also the factor, by which one can distinguish the sounds of instruments.
So taking the Octave into perspective makes sense.
Many many thanks for your wonderful video programs!!!
Very interesting videos!!!
I appreciated having the musical examples in this video!
this is really profound, as someone raised in the post-Rameau period this type of thinking is very hard to imagine- it certainly seems more in tune with how composers and performers though back then though...
I'm reading a book on counterpoint currently, and yes it is an intimidating subject. But I will have to try add parts according to the rules described here, seems much more intuitive 👍
nice there's actually an English translation
I really love your channel. Its so informative, interesting and I really appreciate your effort on the style and high quality sound samples! Keep up the good work!
In the example of 11:32 the first chord is not a 10 but and 8. May I wrong?
Yeah it's an octave. Confused me as well.
Perfectly made!! Thank you!
Note to self:
7:56 Counting intervals above and below a sustained note
11:10 The 10 different ways of ascending and descending stepwise in consonant chords
12:15 A 3-step progression (F-G-A); Harmonised
14:13 All audio examples of the different intervals used to harmonize F-G-A
17:55 Harmonizing a 5-step melodic progression from E to B (soprano)
A great video and treatise, may you know it. But on which harpsichord was the intro jingle recorded and with which stops? And, be it not too much to ask, is there sheet music of that? Thank you.
11:32 beginning interval is 8th, not 10th. Anyway, I am so going to practice these! thank you!
I have to turn back and show the appreciation of what a true scholar is doing for the wider public, here, on youtube. Briliantly brilliant, Elam!
I listen to you from the place where Tomás de Santa María passed away, Ribadavia....thank you Elam! Your videos are grear!
where could I find this book?
Check the footnotes!
Maravilloso trabajo, si tuviera dinero te apoyaría con enorme gusto, pero valoro y agradezco mucho tu trabajo.
Felicidades y gracias!!!!!!!
Love this! I was taught to think about chords in a similar way when I came to study in Paris.
I know this is out of your period of research, but do you have any thoughts on metronome markings, especially the origins of double beat VS single beat theory (made popular by wim winters) in early music sources (if it exists)
Fantastic😃
anyone know where to find an english translation of Santa Maria's book? pdf or otherwise..
15:02 "...odd and refreshing at the same time." Indeed - it is an exhilarating thing to listen contrapuntally, and the most exciting music is contrapuntal.
Useful information. Thanks.
I might have enjoyed theory if you had been my professor!
Is it possible to get a copy of the book for english online some where?
This is soooo good and helpful. LOVE IT
CONGRATULATIONS DIVINE MASTER! YOU ARE A GENIUS!
Congratulations! An excellent video as usual. Could you tell me what kind of harpsichord is used in this recording? Thanks
It's the instrument behind me, a small harpsichord made after italian models.
How about a sequel about dissonances?
Thanks for the great videos
This is awesome!!
😆❤️
Hay alguna razón "musical" por la cual el clavicordio está medio tono abajo?
En la época del renacimiento y del barroco, todos los instrumentos estaban afinados a una frecuencia alrededor de lo que para nosotros sería medio tono abajo de lo normal.
no recuerdo la frecuencia exacta, pero cabe mencionar que se supone que las frecuencias del sonido siempre van en aumento indefinido, por lo que algunas orquestas ya han comenzado a afinar el La a más de 440 Hz. P. Ej. 450 Hz
Es un tema muy interesante.
Is a fourth also considered dissonant measured from the highest voice? or just the bass
I guess it should be, otherwise Santa Maria would consider it a consonance
At least according Fux's rules only the arithmetic fourth is considered dissonant. So the 4th in c g c' between g and c' would be consonant because there is a 5th (c g) beneath it. The 4th in G c g would however be dissonant since the 4th lacks a fifth beneath it (C G). I would imagine the same applies here. After all if this 4th you mentioned was banned then you could never have an inner voice take the 5th whilst the melody is an 8.va above the base.
@@JT-jt2id yeah can't prohibit a standard closed chord. so it's about if the interval is supported by notes beneath it. Ok
I was reading about how overtones determine "primary" consonances and the intervals between the overtones are "secondary" consonances, which seems straightforward to me, since the overtones have to be consonant or all music would be dissonant. Then all other intervals are dissonant. The fourth is interesting though, since it depends on the context whether it is considered consonant or not
@@spoderman15 I guess I should amend my comment by mentioning that an arithmetic 4th in a 63 chord generally works so e g c would work because the 4th is considered to be softened. 64 or g c e would not work because the 4th is against the bass. So 4th are dissonant in all 2 voice textures but can be considered as imperfect consonances in middle and upper voices with the harmonic 4th being the most pleasing 4th of all.
As always this channel is full of Great Wonders.
Great stuff!!
I find this kind of analysis useless by its very nature. It's way too specific about detailing every single note and interval and it's variants that it is no simpler than simply learning practicing and actually becoming familiar with voicing chords on your own. The point of a music theory should be to actually point to GENERALITIES and CONNECTIONS you can say about things that actually HELP with understanding concepts, not simply laying out every single detail of every single possible concept and expecting students to memorize it all
The idea here is to try and understand how composers from the 16th century (in this case, specifically Thomas de Santa Maria) saw things, and how theoretical concepts were taught back then.
@@EarlyMusicSources Well yea sure, I get that is what you're doing on this channel here and I appreciate someone is preserving and spreading the history of these things, but that doesn't mean I won't criticize the validity or usefulness
This kind of reminds me of the jazz students that would make a fuss about supposed V9 chords in our baroque theory classes. It doesn't matter to the professor or anything that it's "actually" a V9 chord, we don't care about that, we care what the composer was thinking about and how they thought of things, because that is infinitely more useful for us than the idea of contextually independent "universal music theory".
The point of this video is not to say that this is a "better" way of looking at things, just that this is one way musicians conceptualized harmony, that is very useful to know about if you are going to be realizing figured bass in a historically informed performance context. Otherwise, it isn't so much historically informed.
I find your comment useless by its very nature.
Bellooooo
Quasi tutto corretto ma al minuto 4:50 le "Two classes of consonances" risultano invertite le consonanze perfette con le consonanze imperfette, naturalmente adottando il temperamento mesotonico completo ovvero 11 quinte -1/4 C, le consonanze perfette sono le terze maggiori definite comunemente "terze celesti", ma forse si è sbagliato lo stesso Thomas de Santa Maria, grazie.
Every current theory book that mentions perfect and imperfect consonances makes the same classification today as the one that appears in the video. ;-)
In words we can say everything and the contrary of everything but only with the following numerical relationships are the following consonances unambiguous: 2/1; 3/2; 4/3; 5/4, that is: octave, pythagorean fifth, pythagorean fourth, third major mesotonic renaissance. In pure mesotonic temperament only the eighth and major thirds that gravitate on natural tones are pure. (If math is not an opinion)
@@francobandera Music is not science. And because of that, it's full of cultural consensus and not only full of numbers. By the way, in your nunerical proportions list: where do the imperfect consonances start? Where do the disonances start? Where are those limits? Numbers don't show that. Music is, in an enormous proportion, tradition. And, for me, it's more about that than about phytagorian numerology. The last one doesn't reflect the musical practice. For some things it fits; for some other things it doesn't. I'd be cautious with orthodoxy in music. And with the numerology in music. Being orthodox with numbers in music you can't produce any remarkable piece of art. Masterworks have a large quantity of numerical proportions but they're not only that. Anyway it was okay in the video. It reflects Santa María's thaughts, so being also orthodox, the video is correct in that issue in every word. Music, and also life, is more than numbers. Luckily. ;-)
The definition of perfect consonance for the fifth and the imperfect consonance for the third major is a heritage of the medieval era when the Pythagorean temperament was the most widespread, in the Pythagorean temperament this definition is correct but in the Renaissance period there are three different temperaments such as:
Natural (for human voices only) all the chords are perfect consonances;
Pure Meantone (harpsichord and organ) the major third is pure, celestial, therefore perfect but the fifth is impure, therefore imperfectly narrow;
Equal (lute, vihuela) in this case all the chords, excluding the octave, are slightly dissonant and the fifth is more consonant than the third but both are imperfect.
This is the story of the primordial heritage that has remained until today.
in the tenor and alto of fourth example is that interval ok? the bflat against e
and hidden fifth in the last measure between bass and soprano. I hear these rules verbally but when i listen it sounds good. I dont get it. Is it just pedantic rule making?
@@michaelperkins8078 Hidden fifth is permitted if one of the voices moves by a second (although some treatises say minor second only). If it appears between lower and upper parts it's only good if the second is in the upper part. So here it's not forbidden. ;-)
16:30 I'll admit I'm a bit lost on what exactly is meant by leaving the mode here - I'm not sure what the mode is, or what the soft/hard hexachords are, and what is meant by notes improper to the mode.
Check the episodes about modes and about Solmization!
It seems to me that it is more on harmony that counterpoint
this is counterpoint. harmony is much more a fundamental part of music that is always heard.
More sonic examples would be greatly appreciated. Otherwise, this is the best sleeping pill for free on the internet.