Ben is the end of the whole Skywalker arc. So true. When you look at it that way...there’s no way he is not redeemed. How do people actually think that?!?!
Ah-ahhh worse for them then! However clearly beauty is in the eye of the beholder afterall. ;-P) Let's just say that he's not typically handsome as some of those perfect boy models out there y'know (or that classic American blond look a la Brad Pitt), but IMO that's even better: 'cause he's genuinely charming & has got bags of charisma, & that makes a guy (or a girl of course) fascinating & sexy...& that's TOP COOL ah?!
Personally I don't find perfect looks attractive. Benedict Cumberbatch and Norman Reedus are both pretty weird looking objectively and yet extremely good looking to many women too. Adam Driver has got it, imo, and has tons of talent to boot.
I can kind of see where they are coming from - he’s not a conventionally handsome man, but he has something better than that. He has charisma. He has a way about him that draws you in, a magnetism on screen that demands your attention, and spades of acting talent to boot. It also helps that Kylo Ren is such an interesting, dynamic character and we all love bad boys. It’s easy to mix up actor and character a bit (though Adam seems to be absolutely delightful in real life as well).
Just realised that before Ben made that marriage proposal to Rey, he basically did what Mr Darcy did to Elizabeth, he insulted and disrespected her family and then he went about describing and ripping up her heart without a thought or care of how she felt. He basically tore up her hopes and dreams of who her parents where. He's brutal honesty wasn't what she needed at the moment and but he didn't care, he wanted her by his side and he was willing to do anything to have her with him. You can see it on Elizabeth's face, she knows who her family is and how they behave, she isn't blind. She already knows of all the things he is telling her and yet the brutal honesty in the way he goes about telling her chips at her heart and soul. You can see her pain and anger when she answers him back. Like in the case of Ben and Rey, with his words he brings up what she knows in her heart and the brutally of how is goes about it is heart breaking to watch. You can literally feel her pain and anguish of what she already knows.
I don't quite see it the same way: I think Rey was mostly in denial about her parents, because deep down, she knew they abandoned her and sold her for drinking money - she just never admitted that to herself, and that's why in TFA she's so fixated on going back to Jakku. I think Ben was well-intentioned by having her realize that - in a twisted way, of course, because his philosophy is to let go of the past and to let it all burn, because it hurts too much. Because, let's face it - Han gave her hints that her parents probably abandoned her, and Maz literally just told her - albeit a lot more nicely than Ben did, lol. It's a terrible thing to say, really - but I think Rey somewhat needed to have some tough love about her parents, because it did stop her from moving on... even though Ben did it in the worst possible way and in some exceptionally bad circumstances, lol.
Both the Darcy and Ben Solo characters share one attribute above all in common - both are significantly socially dysfunctional, though for different reasons. Darcy is as much isolated by his wealth and station as he is privileged by it, and is profoundly shy as was observed in this video. Someone like him would probably be diagnosed with some form of social anxiety disorder in the modern age, and it gets in his way when it comes time to express himself to Elizabeth, resulting in his comedically incompetent, yet also oddly sweetly earnest, proposal. Similarly, Ben Solo's entire life has been a tale of familial implosion and abandonment by people who should have cared for him (up to and including what he thinks was his attempted murder by his own uncle), further compounded by years of vicious abuse by someone who did all they could to prevent him developing any normal social skills so as to ensure that he remained both controllable and angry and resentful enough to remain connected to the Dark Side exclusively, with little influence from the Light. He is totally out of his depth when he makes his oblique proposal to Rey; this is something he has no experience of nor even any frame of reference for. It is not as though he has any good examples of the romantic relationships of others to fall back on from his life experiences that we know of. His father abandoned both him and his mother to go back to being a smuggler, something that happened because Han couldn't deal with the fact his son was Force Sensitive. Luke lived an ascetic's life with no room for a relationship, and was committed to an ideology that rejected intimate relationships as dangerous. As for Snoke, he doesn't seem like the flowers and chocolates kind of guy to me... With such backgrounds and existing situations and life experiences, it isn't any surprise at all that they both royally screwed up their first attempt to confess the extent of their feelings to the women they love. It would have been nothing short of astounding if it had somehow gone well.
If I do have any insight into these kinds of male characters who find the most terrible imaginable ways of expressing what they feel to the people they love, then it is probably best if I don't dwell over much on where that insight flows from...
You were holding this one back on purpose weren't you ;) BEST valentines gift ever :D Thank you SO much for this. I've been eagerly anticipating your next podcast for what feels like forever. I'm going to savour the hell out of the next hour. Update: it was even better than I was expecting 👌so damn good. I'd honestly very happily listen to a 3 hour extended edition of this any day. Side note: "By the end of TLJ, there's no one who knows Ben as well as Rey does, and there's no one who knows Rey as well as Ben does." is now my new favourite Reylo quote. I love you for that sentence.
I really enjoyed the literary reference series-thank you. I kept thinking about the men in these literatures (Darcy, Rochester, Thornton), and how they go through their own transformations in order to "get the girl". These men start out as very self-assured, prideful and overly confident men, who are very much in control and who are not used to people (especially women), saying no to them. They get challenged by these women, whom they are surprised to find that they cannot control (I think they all expected an immediate "yes" to all their proposals). They are humbled and changed towards the end and I hope Kylo Ren will get his chance at examining his shortcomings that will lead to redemption. Thanks again ladies, and my favorite Jane Austen is also Persuasion.
When I saw TLJ in theaters, I was blown away by the hand touching scene! I was sitting there with my mouth hanging open and my heart racing. And the entire time, in the back of my mind, I kept thinking “why is this arrousing? Why do I feel like I shouldn’t be watching such a deeply intimate moment?”
I can see kylo´s propose the same as darcy´s first propose, in both the answer is no. Darcy and kylo needs to learn about the consequence of their actions and learn to be a better person. In both cases too, Rey and elizabeth learns that everything is not how they thought, as rey learn about Luke trying to kill Kylo and elizabeth learns that wickham is not the good guy.
I just realised another (possibly trivial and probably accidental) parallel with Pride and Prejudice- Colin Firth going for a swim and Lizzie unexpectedly running into him while he is in wet improper clothing. I know it's not in the book, but still it has become a legendary scene. It's interesting how Lizzie has been somewhat unwillingly learning more about Darcy and is starting to understand that she didn't really have him figured out as she thought. And then there is this awkward moment which seems to play some part in her becoming more attracted to him. So I thought it was kind of similar to shirtless Kylo. Rey has been learning more about this man she hated and suddenly there is this unexpected moment that definitely gives her different thoughts regarding him and after that she seems to quite quickly allow herself to trust him.
Very nice! We didn't get into that because it's not in the novel, but it still it would have been good to at least mention it as a parallel between the films. Nice catch! ^^
As someone who could never get into Wuthering Heights, the parallels in this episode were all brand new to me! I've tried to read Wuthering Heights multiple times, but seeing Heathcliff and Cathy as Anakin/Padme may help this next time really happen for me haha. Thanks for the episode!
With regard to the discussion in the video about the symbolism of 'fallen' womanhood and the idea of the cautionary tale of the danger and harmful nature of sexual impulses, I think that here we see the modernity of the Star Wars tale coming to the fore. Classic romantic literature hails from an era when sex, especially outside the bonds of marriage (which was seen as mitigating - but not eliminating - its imagined morally harmful character), was perceived as a dangerously corrupting force to be feared and rejected. These works came into being long before the sexual revolution in a highly religiously observant and socially conservative culture. Conversely, Star Wars is a creation of the modern, post-sexual revolution epoch, and embodies very different attitudes toward sex and sexuality (though in a necessarily oblique manner given the fact that a large proportion of its viewership will be children). The kind of exaggerated fear of sex, especially with regard to its notional 'moral threat', held up as such a core virtue of an ethical life in earlier periods is not seen as a virtue today, but rather as a dangerous dysfunction, both in individuals and in institutions. It has been observed that in a modern society sexual naivete is cute in children (everyone knows the endless variations on the jokes about babies being brought by storks or found in cabbage patches) but disturbing and dangerous in adults. I think that plays back into the relationship between Rey and Ben. Rey does not have the same pathological fear of the Dark Side (and by extension her own sexual awakening the Dark Side partially represents) that earlier generations of Jedi exhibit, showing curiosity about the Dark Side locus on Ahch-to but remaining uncorrupted, and going on to feel great empathy for Ben and seeking to save him, but doing so without compromising her commitment to freedom and the Resistance. Luke, who initially embodies the old Jedi way of rejecting intimate relationships as dangerous and judges Rey harshly for what he interprets as her affinity for the Dark Side, would fit much more neatly into the paradigm of that Victorian style sex-negative (pseudo)morality, but in this story Luke has been damaged by these non-functional Jedi teachings over time, to the point where he seriously considers murdering his sleeping nephew in cold blood in a form of pseudo-moral frenzy, only just managing to stop himself, and goes on to fail to tell Han and Leia the truth about why Ben turned to the Dark Side, letting them think their son was inherently evil. He goes yet further again, lying to Rey by omission with regard to his role in creating Ben's broken Kylo Ren persona. The figure who most neatly matches the patriarchal ideal of masculine, pure moral authority is very profoundly flawed and seeking to spare his blushes by blaming the victim. It is only after Rey confronts Luke with his failings as a master (and as a moral actor), and he subsequently receives sage words of advice from Yoda's Force Ghost, that he begins to move back toward being a more positive figure and meaningfully moral actor by modern standards, ultimately refusing to kill Ben to try to fix his error by violence, and instead choosing to sacrifice himself to rekindle the most inspirational aspects of the myth of Luke Skywalker at the expense of the man, and in the process convey to Ben his apologies for failing him as his master without engaging in violent confrontation with him. Luke even realises that he can't save Ben himself, but still says to Leia that 'no one is ever really gone', implying that while he can't save Ben, that doesn't mean no one and nothing can - Ben can save himself, so long as he has the right guidance and motivation from Rey. Far from being corrupting, their bond, including its romantic and obliquely referenced sexual elements, is the thing that will heal Ben Solo and save the galaxy, and Luke comes to realise this over the course of the movie. He moves from an older sense of sex negative morality (as demonstrated by his sense of horrified, building-demolishing outrage when he discovers Ben and Rey mid-Force bond - a form of spiritual in flagrante delicto it seems - in the delightfully nicknamed 'smut hut' on Ahch-to) to a more modern understanding that sex is a natural part of romantic love and not something to be feared or reviled out of prurient distaste for the realities of the experience of bodily intimacy. This all amounts to a rejection of the notion that intimacy is something to be inherently feared or viewed as innately corrupting, so long as it occurs in the right circumstances and with the right person, which is a far cry from the notions of 'fallen womanhood' that figured so prominently in tales from earlier ages.
I was gonna stay aloof, but you've left two comments saying Luke was teaching Ben to be a detached zombie with zero evidence to back it up. Where is it stated that Luke discouraged intimacy? In the EU he banged a darksider and had kids, so unless Disney pulls some more BS to further destroy Luke's character there's still no real reason for Ben to resent Luke (aside from Luke randomly deciding to be a dumbass out of nowhere).
I think the whole idea where there is a sort of upcoming resolve between the Dark side and the Light side, being signalled by Rey not being scared of her Dark side, is essential to understanding the story, and thrillingly new as a story in itself - not to mention of enormous importance psychologically. To me, that is not just about sexuality, but even womanhood.
The scene where the two of them met in The Force Awakens always reminds me about all mythologicals and legendaries themes about the dark creature pursuing the poor scared and virginal young woman. It's a kidnapping (a "raptus"). It's like the myth of Hades and Persephone. There's two universals themes in the world : violance and sexuality and it's why whether it's tales from Antiquity or Star Wars movie from 21th century we always found them subtextually. Those both themes always enthrall gloriously in any myth, story or fairy tale. It's fundamental that there's these chastity, purity and reserved side opposed to these violant, sexual and bestial side. It's the spiritual being opposed to the beast that always stands in human's mind... It simply is what's composing us and it's what Kylo/Ben and Rey are meant to represents. They are a whole like both the light and the dark side are a whole. The whole of the Force which represents life and existance... The balance and not the extreme like Anakin and Padme were. Because Anakin was extreme in the dark side and Padme was extreme in the light side. She never was tempted by Anakin's proposal to rule the world and they're were like a huge collide. Rey was tempted to cross the line as Kylo/Ben was tempted to do so and in these way they're more humans and balance. Because despite what the dark sexual and monstrous creature and the young woman thinks about each other they are still fascinated and attracted by the other one... PS : Sorry for my english but I'm French. ;)
What a treat to wake up on Vday and get a stellar Reylo episode from my fav channel! I've always loved P&P (and you showed a Lizzie B Diaries shot, I love it!), but I have never seen North & South, so I'm looking forward to diving into that now. I LOVE the idea of Ben not just saving Rey but Finn or Poe to show his love for Rey, just like Darcey did for Elizabeth. *swoon* Then they can kick some G. Hux butt together, heh. :) Another great one ladies!
This video is simply GREAT!! I agree so much with all you said & thanks a ton for this huge work you're making to explain in depth Reylo & more about this Star Wars' universe. Happy Valentine lovelies
Thank you, well done! Pride and Prejudice is first and foremost a social critique. Then it is a romance because women had to write romances and not social critiques. RJ was able to get romance + social critique in TLJ, big time. But I am not convinced about the future of this if he is gone. I still have to see JJ Abrams being able to come up with a solid romance. All the romances we have seen in e.g. Lost were just weird and ended up even worse. As if love was not JJ's thing. I still remember the awkward lines between Leia and Han Solo in TFA.
Agnieszka Weinar Remember that JJ set up the reylo dynamic. I trust that he’ll be able to close this trilogy with an ending that will be satisfactory for all of us reylo fans.
True, Julie Crawford. I am maybe hoping for something as cathartic as the Brokeback Mountain. Ang Lee brought me to pieces in that one, but he is just a genius of emotions. So it is not about bringing in a storyline, but how you direct it... I place a lot of hope in Adam Driver's acting skill. I am less confident about Daisy Ridley, who is a bit flat actig-wise.
Incredible! I love Pride and Prejudice since I was 15 years old and the comparisons to TFA, TLJ blow me away. There are so many similarities in the actions of these character 's in star wars new trilogy. Amazing work of you girls as usual to studying it so much of it!!!! Thank you for this great podcast😍😍😍😍😍.
With all of this discussion on literary parallels you made me think of a modern day novel that was made into a movie and that’s Bridgette Jones’s Diary. The love interest whose last name is also Darcy (which I’m pretty sure was intentional by the author) even delivers a speech similar to P & P and even Kylo’s speech but with a bit of a twist on the reaction from the heroine of the story. In that story he pretty much blasts her whole character and family and everything but at the end of his speech professes and I’m paraphrasing quite a bit, “there are elements of the ridiculous about you.... despite all of that I like you very much.” Her reply is priceless when she gets pissed and starts repeating all his problems he has with her and he interrupts her and says, “No, I like you very much, just as you are.” Which ultimately leaves her feeling confused about his profession and what that means to her, how it makes her feel. I think Kylo says pretty much the same thing as awful s it comes out, “you’re nothing but not to me.” Translates to “despite this I love you very much, regardless of where you come from.” In turn at the end of the movie Bridget gives Darcy a similar speech pretty much stating, “ you’re kind of an ass, but your a nice man over all and I like you.” It really echos a lot of these stories but with a more equal ground, because she sees all the negative in him as well but despite all that still cares for him. Anyway it was just something that popped in my head that was a more modern parallel to the dynamic.
MissConduct 1 if I'm not wrong Brigitte Jones's diary is inspired on Pride and prejudice, that's why She asked darcy to have the same actor of Darcy on the 1995 version of Pride and prejudice.
@Travel in Pages: exactly, exactly! XD The perfection of Colin Firth playing Darcy twice cannot be overlooked. That's why we included Bridget Jones's Diary references in this video. ^^
I HIGHLY recommend reading Bridget Jones's Diary and its sequel Bridget Jones The Edge of Reason by Helen Fielding as they are fun modern interpretations of Jane Austen's books Pride & Prejudice and Persuasion. (The movie sequel wasn't as good in my opinion but the first movie is just so perfect!). I've read a bunch reimaginings of Austen's books and Ms. Fielding just does it best (they're really funny).
Thank you very much for another beautiful video! Your channel inspires me so much. Star Wars and Reylo are my absolute passion and it’s wonderful that I have your channel to turn to ^^
That was fantastic. Once you look at the sequels as a gothic romance, it all opens up and makes sense. I'm planning to tackle this myself (in writing) but including 20th century gothic romance.
That is what at I love about The Last Jedi is that Luke has always been thought as this perfect Jedi when in reality he is really Wickam. And Ben and Rey know that. We can only hope that Ben and Rey get their happy ending, simply because Anakin and Padme and Han and Leia didn't. Thank you for this video ! Keep up the great work!
As terribly cliched as the idea is, I agree with the you that Rose's sentiment is as true as it is cheesy. It is the case that love is stronger than hatred (in a literal as well as symbolic sense; the brain exhibits greater activity and physiological response when experiencing love than it does when experiencing hatred), and the Ben Solo character has subsisted on hatred for so long - out of necessity more than anything, since he was left with nothing else in his eyes - that at this point it is only love that can save him. In a way, one can think of this situation as akin to a fairy tale, with Rey in the role of knight in shining armour (should that be with shining light sabre?) saving the prince (instead of princess in this case) from the lair of the beast. In this situation, Ben is both the prince and, in his persona of Kylo Ren, the monster who imprisons the prince. Since killing the monster is off the table since that would necessarily take out the prince as well, Rey needs to fight with a different type of weapon, defeating Kylo Ren in a way that saves, instead of destroys, Ben Solo. In order to save what she loves, she cannot resort to simply destroying what she hates. At the same time, if Ben is to save himself, and by extension help Rey, then he cannot fall back on yet more hatred - that is the poison that has led him to this terrible pass in the first place. He must replace it with something better, something stronger, if he is to succeed, and the only thing stronger than hatred and fear in the Star Wars universe (as in life) is love of one form or another, whether it is Anakin's familial love for his son that gave him the strength to cast down the Emperor (that guy got what he deserved, for bumping off Samuel L. Jackson's awesome Mace Windu if nothing else) and end his rule, or Ben's nascent romantic love for Rey that gave him the strength to defy his abuser and finally bisect Snoke (who, let's be honest, also really, really had it coming). The messaging at play here seems pretty clear, and it has been a part of the Star Wars universe from day one, forty odd years before the Sequel Trilogy came into being.
I can see that these videos take a lot of time and preparation so I thought I'd drop you girls a line to say that these videos are greatly appreciated and are lovely to sit down and enjoy. Thank you! Xx
Omg Yes!! How could I have missed this. So many similarities. I love seeing images of the first P&P movie with Colin Firth. I think I was also 14 or 12 when I first saw that serie and fell in love with Mr. Darcy. Kylo brings back same feelings for many women. Love hearing Star Wars theories from you! I also see much reference with Kylo and Snape. Both dark, brooding men with a strong inner conflict.
Love you're videos and discussions. I didn't like TFA and didn't see Reylo at all. The moment Kylo/Ben kills Snoke in TLJ it all clicked for me. I went back and watched both movies and once I saw the Reylo aspect both movies made so much more sense to me and I love them. I'm glad there are people out there who see the story this films are telling. I think that's why so many people are confused and don't like TLJ because they missing a fundamental piece of the story.
I learn so much every time I listen to your podcasts! Thanks so much for doing these! The comparisons between Pride & Prejudice and Reylo are totally on point.
Great analysis! As soon as I saw the hand touching scene in TLJ, it reminded me of P&P. The 2005 version is my fav. Hand touching is such an intimate act in both movies, and one of the most emotional moments. If JJ follows the P&P and N&S trope, I’m very interested to see what the redemption act will be that Ben will do to earn Rey’s love. I really like the idea that he may save either Poe or Finn, someone he has no connection to or any love for. I could see it being Finn rather than Poe though because Finn is the one other person that Rey really cares about other than Ben. I’m so glad I found your channel so I can nerd out with someone else who has read these books and sees the connections with the Reylo storyline. Only book I haven’t read that you have discussed is N&S, which I may have to pick up. I absolutely loved the movie version though! Thanks for the great analyses and I look forward to more!
Out of all the Brontë novels, Wuthering Heights is my favourite. And Emily is my favourite of the three sisters, mainly because she's the more mysterious one. Northanger Abbey is my favourite JA novel.
New listener and subscriber here. Have to say that I am really enjoying your podcasts because (a) female perspectives in the SW fandom remain somewhat elusive (although growing) and (b) your insights and discussions sound like my friends and I when we discuss the films (and many other fandoms, eg LOTR, Buffy, etc) although infinitely more erudite and put together. I am so looking forward to engaging with your previous podcasts.
Thank you for this - so on point! I love the parallels you point with Jane Eyre, P&P, West Side Story (who knew??). And you even mentioned my all time favorite Anne and Gilbert. I loved the 80's Disney/Sullivan production soooo much. Thank you including it too (fwiw, I do not like the new Netflix version of Anne either, it's really...just.not.good). Nice job. Can't wait for more content. Love you guys
The 80s adaptation of Anne is perfect - I grew up with it and it really shaped me as a person. The Netflix version... urgh, it honestly destroys everything I loved about Anne. The thing is that a writer from Breaking Bad is in charge (Moïra Walley-Brackett), and... it's like she's trying to bring a more gritty and realistic tone, but it just... doesn't work? Honestly, I'm not saying she's incompetent, because she definitely is not, but I feel like her style would fit Rilla of Ingleside or Emily of New Moon better. Rilla of Ingleside would have been especially fitting considering we celebrated the 100th anniversary of the Vimy battle last year and Rilla takes place during World War I (and let's have Megan Follows reprise her role as Anne, please!). But yeah, just my two cents ;)
Oh girls, I love your videos about SW and Reylo. I can see a parallel between them and The Phantom of the Opera, if you need any ideias for new videos, this is a good one.😘😘 Kisses from Brazil.
Oh yea ladies, very good talk. What about some more modern examples. Though we can look back on that time period and see, I find it a bit difficult at times to related because those stories are from another century, not that they are bad comparisons (Loved North and South) because they do feature strong women though the times were much more rigid than they are now. Oh yea,, I was not really the "good" girl type, I was the bad girl with virtue and even I was considered an oddity for my time which really was not that long ago. Do you have any modern interpretations that you could talk about? West Side Story was a good one. Grease would be another one too if you think about it. I kind of look at Rey as being sort of a "bad" girl type too at least how it was once defined because being outspoken was considered not a good thing when I was a young teen, which is how I got to be a "bad" girl. Hint, some of the "good" girls were not entirely virtuous as people thought.
Just thought of the song "Because I Love Her", from the "Swan Princess 3" soundtrack. Certain lyrics in it remind me of a few of the things discussed in this episode.
so I have rented West Side Story, Pride and Prejudice, and Jane Eyre to watch now (forgot about Wuthering Heights and the other one) But it's all to see good films and Reylo parallels
Hey Aamina, we are waiting for the release of the DVD so we can use high-quality (and legal) images, but we are definitely going to do a visual breakdown for TLJ. Thanks!
I really love your videos, but the videos where you compare the SW characters to British lit characters have to be my absolute favourites (although I'm a bit late to the party). I love that you ladies are bringing this to the SW debate, because I feel that many 'traditional' SW lovers overlook this depth in the story. This should actually be posted/said under the other Brit lit+SW video, but I really feel that Kylo's redemption will happen and that it will somehow cost him dearly, involving a symbolic death of some kind. I don't want to be too bleak, or jinx anything, but that's my 2 cents. Keep making those awesome videos, thanks! :-)
I’ve been thinking a lot lately about this and I thought it might be of your interest too, which is about Rey and Ben’s most important moments together (the interrogation, the battle in the woods, the hand touching and the battle with Snoke’s guard). In the sex and force bonds episode you referred to all of them as sex, being that the hands touching scene you characterised as intimate sex. My question is: Could these moments be interpreted as other stuff, like, marriage or starting dating and other stages a relationship goes through?
Cacah Br in pride and prejudice Elizabeth would not Touch Darcy without gloves, you can see his reaction when She touch his hand when they talk, in the scene where Elizabeth and her aunt and uncle visit his house.
Ha, I think for sure you can make extrapolations about these scenes being akin to milestones in the life of a couple. I remember someone saying that the MSW podcast guys were interpreting the "finger porn" Reylo scene in TLJ as "Kylo getting to second base": more than kissing but not really sex. XD For me personally the hand touching scene is the actual symbolic "consummation" of Rey and Kylo's relationship after getting to know each other through their Force Skype dates, whereas the previous instances of "Force sex" were more strictly symbolic, but are also key for creating erotic intimacy between them. I guess foreplay? LOL. Curious to hear what others think. ^^
Travel in Pages, I'm not sure of what you meant.. I wasn't really making any reference to pride and prejudice, I was only considering Reylo stuff and trying to make a parallel of their interactions to "real life" relationship stages.
Oh, definitely! I've even seen a meta going around Tumblr saying that the hand touching scene was a symbolic marriage, similar to Hindu weddings (I think? Correct me if I'm wrong, please).
Hey Nelsa, we didn't include your name in the screengrab of the Tweet just in case you didn't want to be famous lol. XD Brilliant Tweet, by the way! We are impressed with the gif usage. 👌
im sorry but there is only one thing i HAVE TO disagree with and that is what you said about the new 'Anne with an E'! Omg i love this version of Anne of Green Gables from Netflix! How can you not fall in love with Gilbert and the romance and chemistry between these two!!! I cant wait for the second series!
The scene where the two of them met in The Force Awakens always reminds me about all mythologicals and legendaries themes about the dark creature pursuing the poor scared and virginal young woman. It's a kidnapping (a "raptus"). It's like the myth of Hades and Persephone. There's two universal themes in the world : violance and sexuality and it's why whether it's tales from Antiquity or Star Wars movie from 21th century we always found them subtextually. Those both themes always enthrall gloriously in any myth, story or fairy tale. It's fundamental that there's these chastity, purity and reserved side opposed to these violant, sexual and bestial side. It's the spiritual being opposed to the beast that always stands in human's mind... It simply is what's composing us and it's what Kylo/Ben and Rey are meant to represents. They are a whole like both the light and the dark side are a whole. The whole of the Force which represents life and existance... The balance and not the extreme like Anakin and Padme were. Because Anakin was extreme in the dark side and Padme was extreme in the light side. She never was tempted by Anakin's proposal to rule the world and they're were like a huge collide. Rey was tempted to cross the line as Kylo/Ben was tempted to do so and in these way they're more humans and balance. Because despite what the dark sexual and monstrous creature and the young woman thinks about each other they are still fascinated and attracted by the other one...
Because of your mention of North and South here, I decided to read it, and by ‘read’ I mean ‘listen to the audiobook’. I found Thornton’s sudden devotion to Margaret to be so abrupt that I checked the part I was listening to, to be sure I hadn’t missed a piece. Gaskell certainly isn’t up to the standard of Austen.
First off, I enjoy your videos. Thanks for posting! Next, I would love your thoughts on Rey dying in 9 and Ben bringing her back. When Rey is first introduced to us in 7, her face is covered in a cloth, like a death shroud. Her sleeves are like a mummy's. Her outer clothing crosses her heart, reminding me of the saying, "Cross my heart and hope to die." I don't think our heroine is going to make it in the next film. I think the hardest thing Ben has to face is the legacy of his parents' role in the Resistance (see Lor San Tekka with Kylo in the beginning of 7). Ben's greatest loss would be losing Rey. Somehow both of these need to be addressed or resolved in the next film. What do you think of Ben saving both the Resistance and using the Force to resurrect Rey in order to be redeemed?
Louise Johnson . I have thought of this too and it would be great if Kylo when talking to Vader's helmet about finishing what he started, was not his ambition to rule the galaxy but instead learn to heal and bring back someone from death as the reason Anakin turned was so that he could stop Padme from dying. A lot of people theorise that Snoke is Plaguesis, who Darth Sideous said had this ability. It would be amazing if that Ben had visions of her dying and he turned to the dark side, even killing Han so that he could save her and bring balance to the force. I know Snoke is dead but it would be great if in E9 if Kylo also finds ancient Sith texts and with Rey reading the ancient Jedi text they come up with the knowledge together.
Thanks for giving my thoughts a second glance! Now I know that the filmmakers don't have to go the "Rey dies" route, but there's so much imagery to draw from if they do. Even in 8 Rey lies at a standing Ben's feet twice (once in the "coffin" transport that first takes her to him and once after she falls to his feet after Snoke dies and she catches the saber). Twice just seems to mean something, like he really will find her dead at his feet in the next film.
I could definitely see a scenario where Ben gives Rey the Kiss of Life in order for her to live - it would be so beautiful and symbolic, considering he'd succeed where Anakin failed: saving the girl he loves.
Irina, especially if the filmmakers like the fairy tale imagery, like Snow White or Sleeping Beauty's kiss that brings them back to life. It's the true love's kiss trope. We know JJ liked fairy tale imagery in 7 (Rey running down Maz's Palace steps like Cinderella, the Prince and Princess motifs). That aside, in Star Wars the Dark Side of the Force is all about Death. It's about who you kill in order to fully become Dark and all those you eliminate in the process (Luke being told to kill Darth Vader in order to finish crossing over to the Dark, Ben killing Han in a failed attempt to finish his transition to the Dark in 7, Ben killing Snoke that does finally make him full-out Dark Side in 8). The Light Side is all about saving those you love in one way or another. Incidentally, no one save Kylo but Kylo. His long list of would-be savers include Uncle Luke, Mom Leia, Dad Han, Force-Connection-and-opposite Rey. If he brings Rey back using the Force (shoving it through him into her lifeless frame using his hand/s hovering over her?) to cheat death (isn't this a Dark Side ability?) that could swing him into balance because death and Dark Side are one part of the Force and life and saving it is Light Side. And it would be big enough to redeem him. Which is a tall order for that dude.
Nothing Freudian is unconformable for Lee. 😂 Been thinking of doing a brief solo podcast for Star Wars psych geeks for a while; an overview of use of defense mechanisms and Ericksonian developmental stages from a SW lens. We will forward this idea to her. Thanks!
You lost me a bit with the Freud stuff (not a fan), but I agree completely with everything else. In particular, I liked the part where you discussed Wuthering Heights, and how Rey and Kylo could follow a similar path to young Cathy and Hareton, while the failure of Padme and Anakin is like the failure of older Cathy and Heathcliff. I hate how half of the adaptations of that book don't even include the younger generation, which is for me the best thing about the story. Without it the story is just a tragedy with no redemption, which is IMO what the arc of SW would be if Episode IX ends with Rey and Kylo fighting to the death.
Sorry to hear about the Freud aversion; I bring him up often so if you keep watching these podcasts you'll either come to appreciate him or come to appreciate the mute button for my part of the discussion, lol. Glad you liked the episode as a whole. I agree about the Wuthering Heights parallel Irina made - just brilliant.
Look, I actually hate Freud - for many, many, many reasons (but Lee is still my friend despite that XD), and I know that in my upcoming master's degree in narratology, I'll have to see him a lot (*groan*). But the thing with the younger generation is that they're kind of... hard to get. A lot of people think Hareton and Cathy Jr. are boring, when they're anything but. They have all of Cathy Sr.'s qualities, and some of her faults as well, but not in a way that's destructive or selfish. On the contrary, they become selfless and unite, and together, they kind of "break" the curse Heathcliff has cast on both their families. You know, if I had to adapt Wuthering Heights... I'd have Nelly tell Cathy Jr. the whole story, which would be what would motivate her later to somehow "break the curse" and gain back whatever agency has been taken away from her, along with Hareton.
You mentioned Romeo and Juliet and then talked about all the subtle hand holding that happened in Jane Austen's works and in North & South, but I'm surprised you didn't mention the scene when Romeo and Juliet first meet at the party. They have that whole conversation about hand touching and it's connection to kissing, remember? Romeo takes Juliet's hand and says, "If I profane with my unworthiest hand, This holy shrine, the gentle sin is this: My lips, two blushing pilgrims, ready stand, To smooth that rough touch with a tender kiss." And Juliet basically tells him that touching hands in basically the same as kissing...;)
Bear in mind that "did you expect me to rejoice in the inferiority of your circumstances?" comes AFTER Lizzie has just shot him down. Basically, she says "piss off" and then rather than really say what he felt about *Wickham*, he shoots his mouth off and hits all the wrong targets! (my mother's an Austen scholar :D )
Anti-Reylos: Reylo will never exist.
Me: Check out Star Wars Connection.
Ben is the end of the whole Skywalker arc. So true. When you look at it that way...there’s no way he is not redeemed. How do people actually think that?!?!
Lol I have 2 friends who think Adam driver is extremely ugly , to an extent that I sort of can't comprehend. But he's gorgeous in my eyes.
Ah-ahhh worse for them then! However clearly beauty is in the eye of the beholder afterall. ;-P)
Let's just say that he's not typically handsome as some of those perfect boy models out there y'know (or that classic American blond look a la Brad Pitt), but IMO that's even better: 'cause he's genuinely charming & has got bags of charisma, & that makes a guy (or a girl of course) fascinating & sexy...& that's TOP COOL ah?!
Pffft, they have no taste. ;P
BTS and NCT Trash [Yuta's Smile] Darling, they have no taste ..
*sips tea*
Personally I don't find perfect looks attractive. Benedict Cumberbatch and Norman Reedus are both pretty weird looking objectively and yet extremely good looking to many women too. Adam Driver has got it, imo, and has tons of talent to boot.
I can kind of see where they are coming from - he’s not a conventionally handsome man, but he has something better than that. He has charisma. He has a way about him that draws you in, a magnetism on screen that demands your attention, and spades of acting talent to boot. It also helps that Kylo Ren is such an interesting, dynamic character and we all love bad boys. It’s easy to mix up actor and character a bit (though Adam seems to be absolutely delightful in real life as well).
Just realised that before Ben made that marriage proposal to Rey, he basically did what Mr Darcy did to Elizabeth, he insulted and disrespected her family and then he went about describing and ripping up her heart without a thought or care of how she felt. He basically tore up her hopes and dreams of who her parents where. He's brutal honesty wasn't what she needed at the moment and but he didn't care, he wanted her by his side and he was willing to do anything to have her with him. You can see it on Elizabeth's face, she knows who her family is and how they behave, she isn't blind. She already knows of all the things he is telling her and yet the brutal honesty in the way he goes about telling her chips at her heart and soul. You can see her pain and anger when she answers him back. Like in the case of Ben and Rey, with his words he brings up what she knows in her heart and the brutally of how is goes about it is heart breaking to watch. You can literally feel her pain and anguish of what she already knows.
I don't quite see it the same way: I think Rey was mostly in denial about her parents, because deep down, she knew they abandoned her and sold her for drinking money - she just never admitted that to herself, and that's why in TFA she's so fixated on going back to Jakku. I think Ben was well-intentioned by having her realize that - in a twisted way, of course, because his philosophy is to let go of the past and to let it all burn, because it hurts too much. Because, let's face it - Han gave her hints that her parents probably abandoned her, and Maz literally just told her - albeit a lot more nicely than Ben did, lol. It's a terrible thing to say, really - but I think Rey somewhat needed to have some tough love about her parents, because it did stop her from moving on... even though Ben did it in the worst possible way and in some exceptionally bad circumstances, lol.
I wish more male led Star Wars podcasts listened to you ladies. Keep up the good work.
I know what you mean. ;P
I love these Reylo literary analyses. Can you do a Beauty and the Beast parallels analysis too? Happy Valentine's Day! 💖💖💖
Both the Darcy and Ben Solo characters share one attribute above all in common - both are significantly socially dysfunctional, though for different reasons. Darcy is as much isolated by his wealth and station as he is privileged by it, and is profoundly shy as was observed in this video. Someone like him would probably be diagnosed with some form of social anxiety disorder in the modern age, and it gets in his way when it comes time to express himself to Elizabeth, resulting in his comedically incompetent, yet also oddly sweetly earnest, proposal.
Similarly, Ben Solo's entire life has been a tale of familial implosion and abandonment by people who should have cared for him (up to and including what he thinks was his attempted murder by his own uncle), further compounded by years of vicious abuse by someone who did all they could to prevent him developing any normal social skills so as to ensure that he remained both controllable and angry and resentful enough to remain connected to the Dark Side exclusively, with little influence from the Light. He is totally out of his depth when he makes his oblique proposal to Rey; this is something he has no experience of nor even any frame of reference for. It is not as though he has any good examples of the romantic relationships of others to fall back on from his life experiences that we know of. His father abandoned both him and his mother to go back to being a smuggler, something that happened because Han couldn't deal with the fact his son was Force Sensitive. Luke lived an ascetic's life with no room for a relationship, and was committed to an ideology that rejected intimate relationships as dangerous. As for Snoke, he doesn't seem like the flowers and chocolates kind of guy to me...
With such backgrounds and existing situations and life experiences, it isn't any surprise at all that they both royally screwed up their first attempt to confess the extent of their feelings to the women they love. It would have been nothing short of astounding if it had somehow gone well.
Gregory, thanks for that comment. Lots of good insight there. 👍
If I do have any insight into these kinds of male characters who find the most terrible imaginable ways of expressing what they feel to the people they love, then it is probably best if I don't dwell over much on where that insight flows from...
I think you hit the nail on the head!
This channel’s usage of gifs and graphics is so good. I giggle so much! Good job to the editor! And thanks for the great analysis
Thank you! I have to say I also giggle when I'm pairing the gifs and memes with the audio, it's actually why I love editing. XD
Glad you enjoyed it!
Right after watching TLJ, I totally thought about P&P and I was like 😏 my taste remains consistent
You were holding this one back on purpose weren't you ;)
BEST valentines gift ever :D Thank you SO much for this. I've been eagerly anticipating your next podcast for what feels like forever. I'm going to savour the hell out of the next hour.
Update: it was even better than I was expecting 👌so damn good. I'd honestly very happily listen to a 3 hour extended edition of this any day.
Side note: "By the end of TLJ, there's no one who knows Ben as well as Rey does, and there's no one who knows Rey as well as Ben does." is now my new favourite Reylo quote. I love you for that sentence.
I really enjoyed the literary reference series-thank you. I kept thinking about the men in these literatures (Darcy, Rochester, Thornton), and how they go through their own transformations in order to "get the girl". These men start out as very self-assured, prideful and overly confident men, who are very much in control and who are not used to people (especially women), saying no to them. They get challenged by these women, whom they are surprised to find that they cannot control (I think they all expected an immediate "yes" to all their proposals). They are humbled and changed towards the end and I hope Kylo Ren will get his chance at examining his shortcomings that will lead to redemption. Thanks again ladies, and my favorite Jane Austen is also Persuasion.
When I saw TLJ in theaters, I was blown away by the hand touching scene! I was sitting there with my mouth hanging open and my heart racing. And the entire time, in the back of my mind, I kept thinking “why is this arrousing? Why do I feel like I shouldn’t be watching such a deeply intimate moment?”
A lovely Valentine’s Day gift for the Reylo community!💜
I can see kylo´s propose the same as darcy´s first propose, in both the answer is no. Darcy and kylo needs to learn about the consequence of their actions and learn to be a better person. In both cases too, Rey and elizabeth learns that everything is not how they thought, as rey learn about Luke trying to kill Kylo and elizabeth learns that wickham is not the good guy.
FOR VALENTINES DAY?! You guys are the best.
I just realised another (possibly trivial and probably accidental) parallel with Pride and Prejudice- Colin Firth going for a swim and Lizzie unexpectedly running into him while he is in wet improper clothing. I know it's not in the book, but still it has become a legendary scene. It's interesting how Lizzie has been somewhat unwillingly learning more about Darcy and is starting to understand that she didn't really have him figured out as she thought. And then there is this awkward moment which seems to play some part in her becoming more attracted to him. So I thought it was kind of similar to shirtless Kylo. Rey has been learning more about this man she hated and suddenly there is this unexpected moment that definitely gives her different thoughts regarding him and after that she seems to quite quickly allow herself to trust him.
Very nice! We didn't get into that because it's not in the novel, but it still it would have been good to at least mention it as a parallel between the films. Nice catch! ^^
You make me want to rewatch P&P all over again. Will never tire of this great movie.
P&P and Reylo!!!!! Loved!!!! Thanks girls!!! This video is amazing!
You girls are so smart, it makes me so happy to listen to your podcast 😭
I'm so excited you release this on Valentine's Day it's a great gift to all us Reylo lovers!
As someone who could never get into Wuthering Heights, the parallels in this episode were all brand new to me! I've tried to read Wuthering Heights multiple times, but seeing Heathcliff and Cathy as Anakin/Padme may help this next time really happen for me haha. Thanks for the episode!
With regard to the discussion in the video about the symbolism of 'fallen' womanhood and the idea of the cautionary tale of the danger and harmful nature of sexual impulses, I think that here we see the modernity of the Star Wars tale coming to the fore. Classic romantic literature hails from an era when sex, especially outside the bonds of marriage (which was seen as mitigating - but not eliminating - its imagined morally harmful character), was perceived as a dangerously corrupting force to be feared and rejected. These works came into being long before the sexual revolution in a highly religiously observant and socially conservative culture.
Conversely, Star Wars is a creation of the modern, post-sexual revolution epoch, and embodies very different attitudes toward sex and sexuality (though in a necessarily oblique manner given the fact that a large proportion of its viewership will be children). The kind of exaggerated fear of sex, especially with regard to its notional 'moral threat', held up as such a core virtue of an ethical life in earlier periods is not seen as a virtue today, but rather as a dangerous dysfunction, both in individuals and in institutions. It has been observed that in a modern society sexual naivete is cute in children (everyone knows the endless variations on the jokes about babies being brought by storks or found in cabbage patches) but disturbing and dangerous in adults. I think that plays back into the relationship between Rey and Ben.
Rey does not have the same pathological fear of the Dark Side (and by extension her own sexual awakening the Dark Side partially represents) that earlier generations of Jedi exhibit, showing curiosity about the Dark Side locus on Ahch-to but remaining uncorrupted, and going on to feel great empathy for Ben and seeking to save him, but doing so without compromising her commitment to freedom and the Resistance. Luke, who initially embodies the old Jedi way of rejecting intimate relationships as dangerous and judges Rey harshly for what he interprets as her affinity for the Dark Side, would fit much more neatly into the paradigm of that Victorian style sex-negative (pseudo)morality, but in this story Luke has been damaged by these non-functional Jedi teachings over time, to the point where he seriously considers murdering his sleeping nephew in cold blood in a form of pseudo-moral frenzy, only just managing to stop himself, and goes on to fail to tell Han and Leia the truth about why Ben turned to the Dark Side, letting them think their son was inherently evil. He goes yet further again, lying to Rey by omission with regard to his role in creating Ben's broken Kylo Ren persona. The figure who most neatly matches the patriarchal ideal of masculine, pure moral authority is very profoundly flawed and seeking to spare his blushes by blaming the victim.
It is only after Rey confronts Luke with his failings as a master (and as a moral actor), and he subsequently receives sage words of advice from Yoda's Force Ghost, that he begins to move back toward being a more positive figure and meaningfully moral actor by modern standards, ultimately refusing to kill Ben to try to fix his error by violence, and instead choosing to sacrifice himself to rekindle the most inspirational aspects of the myth of Luke Skywalker at the expense of the man, and in the process convey to Ben his apologies for failing him as his master without engaging in violent confrontation with him. Luke even realises that he can't save Ben himself, but still says to Leia that 'no one is ever really gone', implying that while he can't save Ben, that doesn't mean no one and nothing can - Ben can save himself, so long as he has the right guidance and motivation from Rey. Far from being corrupting, their bond, including its romantic and obliquely referenced sexual elements, is the thing that will heal Ben Solo and save the galaxy, and Luke comes to realise this over the course of the movie. He moves from an older sense of sex negative morality (as demonstrated by his sense of horrified, building-demolishing outrage when he discovers Ben and Rey mid-Force bond - a form of spiritual in flagrante delicto it seems - in the delightfully nicknamed 'smut hut' on Ahch-to) to a more modern understanding that sex is a natural part of romantic love and not something to be feared or reviled out of prurient distaste for the realities of the experience of bodily intimacy. This all amounts to a rejection of the notion that intimacy is something to be inherently feared or viewed as innately corrupting, so long as it occurs in the right circumstances and with the right person, which is a far cry from the notions of 'fallen womanhood' that figured so prominently in tales from earlier ages.
Great comment!
I was gonna stay aloof, but you've left two comments saying Luke was teaching Ben to be a detached zombie with zero evidence to back it up. Where is it stated that Luke discouraged intimacy?
In the EU he banged a darksider and had kids, so unless Disney pulls some more BS to further destroy Luke's character there's still no real reason for Ben to resent Luke (aside from Luke randomly deciding to be a dumbass out of nowhere).
I think the whole idea where there is a sort of upcoming resolve between the Dark side and the Light side, being signalled by Rey not being scared of her Dark side, is essential to understanding the story, and thrillingly new as a story in itself - not to mention of enormous importance psychologically. To me, that is not just about sexuality, but even womanhood.
The scene where the two of them met in The Force Awakens always reminds me about all mythologicals and legendaries themes about the dark creature pursuing the poor scared and virginal young woman. It's a kidnapping (a "raptus"). It's like the myth of Hades and Persephone. There's two universals themes in the world : violance and sexuality and it's why whether it's tales from Antiquity or Star Wars movie from 21th century we always found them subtextually. Those both themes always enthrall gloriously in any myth, story or fairy tale. It's fundamental that there's these chastity, purity and reserved side opposed to these violant, sexual and bestial side. It's the spiritual being opposed to the beast that always stands in human's mind... It simply is what's composing us and it's what Kylo/Ben and Rey are meant to represents. They are a whole like both the light and the dark side are a whole. The whole of the Force which represents life and existance... The balance and not the extreme like Anakin and Padme were. Because Anakin was extreme in the dark side and Padme was extreme in the light side. She never was tempted by Anakin's proposal to rule the world and they're were like a huge collide. Rey was tempted to cross the line as Kylo/Ben was tempted to do so and in these way they're more humans and balance. Because despite what the dark sexual and monstrous creature and the young woman thinks about each other they are still fascinated and attracted by the other one...
PS : Sorry for my english but I'm French. ;)
Gregory Greenwood-Nimmo awesome comment - the community is one of the many reasons I love spending time here :)
This is the best way to spend Valentine's Day! I quite enjoyed this in-depth analysis.
What a treat to wake up on Vday and get a stellar Reylo episode from my fav channel! I've always loved P&P (and you showed a Lizzie B Diaries shot, I love it!), but I have never seen North & South, so I'm looking forward to diving into that now. I LOVE the idea of Ben not just saving Rey but Finn or Poe to show his love for Rey, just like Darcey did for Elizabeth. *swoon* Then they can kick some G. Hux butt together, heh. :) Another great one ladies!
This video is simply GREAT!! I agree so much with all you said & thanks a ton for this huge work you're making to explain in depth Reylo & more about this Star Wars' universe.
Happy Valentine lovelies
Thanks so much for these ‘book club’ discussions!
My body is ready
For Reylo
I think Rey and Kylo's bodies are ready too. *wink wink*
Thank you, well done! Pride and Prejudice is first and foremost a social critique. Then it is a romance because women had to write romances and not social critiques. RJ was able to get romance + social critique in TLJ, big time. But I am not convinced about the future of this if he is gone. I still have to see JJ Abrams being able to come up with a solid romance. All the romances we have seen in e.g. Lost were just weird and ended up even worse. As if love was not JJ's thing. I still remember the awkward lines between Leia and Han Solo in TFA.
Agnieszka Weinar Remember that JJ set up the reylo dynamic. I trust that he’ll be able to close this trilogy with an ending that will be satisfactory for all of us reylo fans.
True, Julie Crawford. I am maybe hoping for something as cathartic as the Brokeback Mountain. Ang Lee brought me to pieces in that one, but he is just a genius of emotions. So it is not about bringing in a storyline, but how you direct it... I place a lot of hope in Adam Driver's acting skill. I am less confident about Daisy Ridley, who is a bit flat actig-wise.
Posted on Valentine’s Day and my mother’s birthday! Thank you ladies! ☺️
Happy birthday to mama morgellons! And Happy Valentine's Day. ❤️
Incredible! I love Pride and Prejudice since I was 15 years old and the comparisons to TFA, TLJ blow me away. There are so many similarities in the actions of these character 's in star wars new trilogy. Amazing work of you girls as usual to studying it so much of it!!!! Thank you for this great podcast😍😍😍😍😍.
Simply fantastic!
You guys are the best!
PS. 12:05 My god...Bens "Please" face. *heart breaking*
YESSS!!! Perfect Valentine's Day upload!!! 😍
I love how you guys brought up Anne of Green Gables!!!!
With all of this discussion on literary parallels you made me think of a modern day novel that was made into a movie and that’s Bridgette Jones’s Diary. The love interest whose last name is also Darcy (which I’m pretty sure was intentional by the author) even delivers a speech similar to P & P and even Kylo’s speech but with a bit of a twist on the reaction from the heroine of the story. In that story he pretty much blasts her whole character and family and everything but at the end of his speech professes and I’m paraphrasing quite a bit, “there are elements of the ridiculous about you.... despite all of that I like you very much.” Her reply is priceless when she gets pissed and starts repeating all his problems he has with her and he interrupts her and says, “No, I like you very much, just as you are.” Which ultimately leaves her feeling confused about his profession and what that means to her, how it makes her feel. I think Kylo says pretty much the same thing as awful s it comes out, “you’re nothing but not to me.” Translates to “despite this I love you very much, regardless of where you come from.” In turn at the end of the movie Bridget gives Darcy a similar speech pretty much stating, “ you’re kind of an ass, but your a nice man over all and I like you.” It really echos a lot of these stories but with a more equal ground, because she sees all the negative in him as well but despite all that still cares for him. Anyway it was just something that popped in my head that was a more modern parallel to the dynamic.
MissConduct 1 if I'm not wrong Brigitte Jones's diary is inspired on Pride and prejudice, that's why She asked darcy to have the same actor of Darcy on the 1995 version of Pride and prejudice.
@Travel in Pages: exactly, exactly! XD
The perfection of Colin Firth playing Darcy twice cannot be overlooked. That's why we included Bridget Jones's Diary references in this video. ^^
I HIGHLY recommend reading Bridget Jones's Diary and its sequel Bridget Jones The Edge of Reason by Helen Fielding as they are fun modern interpretations of Jane Austen's books Pride & Prejudice and Persuasion. (The movie sequel wasn't as good in my opinion but the first movie is just so perfect!). I've read a bunch reimaginings of Austen's books and Ms. Fielding just does it best (they're really funny).
Thank you very much for another beautiful video! Your channel inspires me so much. Star Wars and Reylo are my absolute passion and it’s wonderful that I have your channel to turn to ^^
Thanks guys, another wonderful discussion. I love listening to your take on Reylo
I thought you guys where crazy theorists, last jedi proved me wrong. ;]
Been waiting for you guys to upload. I enjoy listening to your podcasts. Keep it up!
OMG I had been waiting for this
You ladies are brilliant!
Thank you, again! Happy Valentine's day. ❤
Thanks for making these vids guys. You always make me smile. Happy Valentine's Day!! :)
That was fantastic. Once you look at the sequels as a gothic romance, it all opens up and makes sense. I'm planning to tackle this myself (in writing) but including 20th century gothic romance.
Sounds awesome, Becky. Please send us a link when your essay is up. ^^
That is what at I love about The Last Jedi is that Luke has always been thought as this perfect Jedi when in reality he is really Wickam. And Ben and Rey know that. We can only hope that Ben and Rey get their happy ending, simply because Anakin and Padme and Han and Leia didn't. Thank you for this video ! Keep up the great work!
As terribly cliched as the idea is, I agree with the you that Rose's sentiment is as true as it is cheesy. It is the case that love is stronger than hatred (in a literal as well as symbolic sense; the brain exhibits greater activity and physiological response when experiencing love than it does when experiencing hatred), and the Ben Solo character has subsisted on hatred for so long - out of necessity more than anything, since he was left with nothing else in his eyes - that at this point it is only love that can save him.
In a way, one can think of this situation as akin to a fairy tale, with Rey in the role of knight in shining armour (should that be with shining light sabre?) saving the prince (instead of princess in this case) from the lair of the beast. In this situation, Ben is both the prince and, in his persona of Kylo Ren, the monster who imprisons the prince. Since killing the monster is off the table since that would necessarily take out the prince as well, Rey needs to fight with a different type of weapon, defeating Kylo Ren in a way that saves, instead of destroys, Ben Solo. In order to save what she loves, she cannot resort to simply destroying what she hates.
At the same time, if Ben is to save himself, and by extension help Rey, then he cannot fall back on yet more hatred - that is the poison that has led him to this terrible pass in the first place. He must replace it with something better, something stronger, if he is to succeed, and the only thing stronger than hatred and fear in the Star Wars universe (as in life) is love of one form or another, whether it is Anakin's familial love for his son that gave him the strength to cast down the Emperor (that guy got what he deserved, for bumping off Samuel L. Jackson's awesome Mace Windu if nothing else) and end his rule, or Ben's nascent romantic love for Rey that gave him the strength to defy his abuser and finally bisect Snoke (who, let's be honest, also really, really had it coming). The messaging at play here seems pretty clear, and it has been a part of the Star Wars universe from day one, forty odd years before the Sequel Trilogy came into being.
Great comment, thank you so much!
Excellent comparisons and video edits, thank you!
I can see that these videos take a lot of time and preparation so I thought I'd drop you girls a line to say that these videos are greatly appreciated and are lovely to sit down and enjoy. Thank you! Xx
Happy Valentine’s Day my fellow SW/Reylo fangirls! 💝😘
Omg 😍 finally mr Darcy 😍 great video 👌
Omg Yes!! How could I have missed this. So many similarities. I love seeing images of the first P&P movie with Colin Firth. I think I was also 14 or 12 when I first saw that serie and fell in love with Mr. Darcy. Kylo brings back same feelings for many women. Love hearing Star Wars theories from you! I also see much reference with Kylo and Snape. Both dark, brooding men with a strong inner conflict.
Sara Rey ana victoria montero mora
Sara Rey si amos amas
Sara Rey s ojos
The Colin Firth version was a 6 part mini series. The first movie was in the 1940s starring Lawrence Olivier and Greer Garson.
Love you're videos and discussions. I didn't like TFA and didn't see Reylo at all. The moment Kylo/Ben kills Snoke in TLJ it all clicked for me. I went back and watched both movies and once I saw the Reylo aspect both movies made so much more sense to me and I love them. I'm glad there are people out there who see the story this films are telling. I think that's why so many people are confused and don't like TLJ because they missing a fundamental piece of the story.
Hey Simone - sorry you didn't like TFA. Maybe now you can rewatch it with a Reylo lens and you might enjoy it more?
You made my Valentine's Day!
awwwww
I learn so much every time I listen to your podcasts! Thanks so much for doing these! The comparisons between Pride & Prejudice and Reylo are totally on point.
Thank you, Ana! Glad you liked the episode. ^^
Was anyone else reminded of Keira Knightly when they saw Daisy Ridley? Some of her facial expressions especially?
She does look a lot like Keira! Sometimes, she kind of reminds me of Natalie Portman too - and I think that was 100% intentional ;)
Yes they look so much alike! I swear they could be sisters!
omg YES!!! thx for posting it on V day xxx
Great analysis! As soon as I saw the hand touching scene in TLJ, it reminded me of P&P. The 2005 version is my fav. Hand touching is such an intimate act in both movies, and one of the most emotional moments. If JJ follows the P&P and N&S trope, I’m very interested to see what the redemption act will be that Ben will do to earn Rey’s love. I really like the idea that he may save either Poe or Finn, someone he has no connection to or any love for. I could see it being Finn rather than Poe though because Finn is the one other person that Rey really cares about other than Ben. I’m so glad I found your channel so I can nerd out with someone else who has read these books and sees the connections with the Reylo storyline. Only book I haven’t read that you have discussed is N&S, which I may have to pick up. I absolutely loved the movie version though! Thanks for the great analyses and I look forward to more!
19:32
Ani: tell her you don't like sand😏
Ben: um...
So excited to listen when I get home 😁❤
So exciting! I've been waiting for this
I love your videos,I'm so happy to have another one !
Thank you for this!!!
Brilliant! Thank you! 💕
Love it! Great discussion
Out of all the Brontë novels, Wuthering Heights is my favourite. And Emily is my favourite of the three sisters, mainly because she's the more mysterious one. Northanger Abbey is my favourite JA novel.
Ben don't die like Tony!!
i just looveee hearing you guys talk! it feels like im friends and im with you guys AH you guys are so cool!
Thanks so much!
I love your videos!!
New listener and subscriber here. Have to say that I am really enjoying your podcasts because (a) female perspectives in the SW fandom remain somewhat elusive (although growing) and (b) your insights and discussions sound like my friends and I when we discuss the films (and many other fandoms, eg LOTR, Buffy, etc) although infinitely more erudite and put together. I am so looking forward to engaging with your previous podcasts.
Thank you, Michelle! Would love to hear your thoughts on some of our discussions. ^^
Outstanding work. Loved this (and the other video), you guys. Darcy was 28-29 too, if I recall correctly.
the hairstyle btw is called the princess hairstyle
Thank you for this - so on point! I love the parallels you point with Jane Eyre, P&P, West Side Story (who knew??). And you even mentioned my all time favorite Anne and Gilbert. I loved the 80's Disney/Sullivan production soooo much. Thank you including it too (fwiw, I do not like the new Netflix version of Anne either, it's really...just.not.good). Nice job. Can't wait for more content. Love you guys
The 80s adaptation of Anne is perfect - I grew up with it and it really shaped me as a person. The Netflix version... urgh, it honestly destroys everything I loved about Anne. The thing is that a writer from Breaking Bad is in charge (Moïra Walley-Brackett), and... it's like she's trying to bring a more gritty and realistic tone, but it just... doesn't work? Honestly, I'm not saying she's incompetent, because she definitely is not, but I feel like her style would fit Rilla of Ingleside or Emily of New Moon better. Rilla of Ingleside would have been especially fitting considering we celebrated the 100th anniversary of the Vimy battle last year and Rilla takes place during World War I (and let's have Megan Follows reprise her role as Anne, please!). But yeah, just my two cents ;)
Darth Darcy and Space Eyre.
I'm almost done with reading Pride and Prejudice myself, so that should be fun.
Oh girls, I love your videos about SW and Reylo. I can see a parallel between them and The Phantom of the Opera, if you need any ideias for new videos, this is a good one.😘😘
Kisses from Brazil.
Hen Wen finalmente achei um brasileiro por aqui KKKKKK
Eu também sou br. Kkkkk acompanho aqui as meninas. Jedi Jade . E vi os vídeos de Vincent.
Well, you got a Phantom of the Opera fan in the house - aka me, lol. Maybe I will talk about it one day ;)
Laila Monet Não conheço canais BR que falem desse assunto, eu tbm acompanho Jade Jedi e Vincent.
Irina Kermong If you do this I'll be pleased to watch
THANK YOU!!!!!
Oh yea ladies, very good talk. What about some more modern examples. Though we can look back on that time period and see, I find it a bit difficult at times to related because those stories are from another century, not that they are bad comparisons (Loved North and South) because they do feature strong women though the times were much more rigid than they are now. Oh yea,, I was not really the "good" girl type, I was the bad girl with virtue and even I was considered an oddity for my time which really was not that long ago.
Do you have any modern interpretations that you could talk about? West Side Story was a good one. Grease would be another one too if you think about it. I kind of look at Rey as being sort of a "bad" girl type too at least how it was once defined because being outspoken was considered not a good thing when I was a young teen, which is how I got to be a "bad" girl. Hint, some of the "good" girls were not entirely virtuous as people thought.
Just thought of the song "Because I Love Her", from the "Swan Princess 3" soundtrack. Certain lyrics in it remind me of a few of the things discussed in this episode.
Guys, 1/8 of the wait is almost over!!!
Yay! XD
so I have rented West Side Story, Pride and Prejudice, and Jane Eyre to watch now (forgot about Wuthering Heights and the other one) But it's all to see good films and Reylo parallels
Great Video keep up the goodwork😁😁 can't wait for the next!!
Could you guys do a video on visual syorytelling in the last jedi
Hey Aamina, we are waiting for the release of the DVD so we can use high-quality (and legal) images, but we are definitely going to do a visual breakdown for TLJ. Thanks!
can they be a happy ending please!!!
My favorite novel and ship. I'm living.
I really love your videos, but the videos where you compare the SW characters to British lit characters have to be my absolute favourites (although I'm a bit late to the party). I love that you ladies are bringing this to the SW debate, because I feel that many 'traditional' SW lovers overlook this depth in the story. This should actually be posted/said under the other Brit lit+SW video, but I really feel that Kylo's redemption will happen and that it will somehow cost him dearly, involving a symbolic death of some kind. I don't want to be too bleak, or jinx anything, but that's my 2 cents. Keep making those awesome videos, thanks! :-)
I’ve been thinking a lot lately about this and I thought it might be of your interest too, which is about Rey and Ben’s most important moments together (the interrogation, the battle in the woods, the hand touching and the battle with Snoke’s guard). In the sex and force bonds episode you referred to all of them as sex, being that the hands touching scene you characterised as intimate sex. My question is: Could these moments be interpreted as other stuff, like, marriage or starting dating and other stages a relationship goes through?
Cacah Br in pride and prejudice Elizabeth would not Touch Darcy without gloves, you can see his reaction when She touch his hand when they talk, in the scene where Elizabeth and her aunt and uncle visit his house.
Ha, I think for sure you can make extrapolations about these scenes being akin to milestones in the life of a couple. I remember someone saying that the MSW podcast guys were interpreting the "finger porn" Reylo scene in TLJ as "Kylo getting to second base": more than kissing but not really sex. XD
For me personally the hand touching scene is the actual symbolic "consummation" of Rey and Kylo's relationship after getting to know each other through their Force Skype dates, whereas the previous instances of "Force sex" were more strictly symbolic, but are also key for creating erotic intimacy between them. I guess foreplay? LOL. Curious to hear what others think. ^^
Travel in Pages, I'm not sure of what you meant.. I wasn't really making any reference to pride and prejudice, I was only considering Reylo stuff and trying to make a parallel of their interactions to "real life" relationship stages.
Lee Green, I see your point. I really wish to see these moments being more profoundly analysed all together some day.
Oh, definitely! I've even seen a meta going around Tumblr saying that the hand touching scene was a symbolic marriage, similar to Hindu weddings (I think? Correct me if I'm wrong, please).
I agree great vid.
28:51 thats my tweet to Rian!!! Im famous 😎😎😎
Hey Nelsa, we didn't include your name in the screengrab of the Tweet just in case you didn't want to be famous lol. XD
Brilliant Tweet, by the way! We are impressed with the gif usage. 👌
Ooooooh, raw power! Perhaps Rey and Ben are together Savants of the Force balancing the story for the audience as well.
im sorry but there is only one thing i HAVE TO disagree with and that is what you said about the new 'Anne with an E'!
Omg i love this version of Anne of Green Gables from Netflix! How can you not fall in love with Gilbert and the romance and chemistry between these two!!! I cant wait for the second series!
Good for you if you like it! I personally don't because it's just way too far from what I love from the book, but to each their own. :)
And yes there is a not a great adaptation of Wuthering Heights. I would love to see Adam Driver play Heathcliff!
I rather liked the 2009 miniseries with Tom Hardy - but maybe it's because the other adaptations range from "okay" to "terrible", lol
I love this
The scene where the two of them met in The Force Awakens always reminds me about all mythologicals and legendaries themes about the dark creature pursuing the poor scared and virginal young woman. It's a kidnapping (a "raptus"). It's like the myth of Hades and Persephone. There's two universal themes in the world : violance and sexuality and it's why whether it's tales from Antiquity or Star Wars movie from 21th century we always found them subtextually. Those both themes always enthrall gloriously in any myth, story or fairy tale. It's fundamental that there's these chastity, purity and reserved side opposed to these violant, sexual and bestial side. It's the spiritual being opposed to the beast that always stands in human's mind... It simply is what's composing us and it's what Kylo/Ben and Rey are meant to represents. They are a whole like both the light and the dark side are a whole. The whole of the Force which represents life and existance... The balance and not the extreme like Anakin and Padme were. Because Anakin was extreme in the dark side and Padme was extreme in the light side. She never was tempted by Anakin's proposal to rule the world and they're were like a huge collide. Rey was tempted to cross the line as Kylo/Ben was tempted to do so and in these way they're more humans and balance. Because despite what the dark sexual and monstrous creature and the young woman thinks about each other they are still fascinated and attracted by the other one...
Because of your mention of North and South here, I decided to read it, and by ‘read’ I mean ‘listen to the audiobook’. I found Thornton’s sudden devotion to Margaret to be so abrupt that I checked the part I was listening to, to be sure I hadn’t missed a piece. Gaskell certainly isn’t up to the standard of Austen.
I love you guys XD
First off, I enjoy your videos. Thanks for posting! Next, I would love your thoughts on Rey dying in 9 and Ben bringing her back. When Rey is first introduced to us in 7, her face is covered in a cloth, like a death shroud. Her sleeves are like a mummy's. Her outer clothing crosses her heart, reminding me of the saying, "Cross my heart and hope to die." I don't think our heroine is going to make it in the next film. I think the hardest thing Ben has to face is the legacy of his parents' role in the Resistance (see Lor San Tekka with Kylo in the beginning of 7). Ben's greatest loss would be losing Rey. Somehow both of these need to be addressed or resolved in the next film. What do you think of Ben saving both the Resistance and using the Force to resurrect Rey in order to be redeemed?
@Louise Johnson, that's an interesting thought. Will forward to the rest of the team. Thanks!
Louise Johnson . I have thought of this too and it would be great if Kylo when talking to Vader's helmet about finishing what he started, was not his ambition to rule the galaxy but instead learn to heal and bring back someone from death as the reason Anakin turned was so that he could stop Padme from dying. A lot of people theorise that Snoke is Plaguesis, who Darth Sideous said had this ability. It would be amazing if that Ben had visions of her dying and he turned to the dark side, even killing Han so that he could save her and bring balance to the force. I know Snoke is dead but it would be great if in E9 if Kylo also finds ancient Sith texts and with Rey reading the ancient Jedi text they come up with the knowledge together.
Thanks for giving my thoughts a second glance! Now I know that the filmmakers don't have to go the "Rey dies" route, but there's so much imagery to draw from if they do. Even in 8 Rey lies at a standing Ben's feet twice (once in the "coffin" transport that first takes her to him and once after she falls to his feet after Snoke dies and she catches the saber). Twice just seems to mean something, like he really will find her dead at his feet in the next film.
I could definitely see a scenario where Ben gives Rey the Kiss of Life in order for her to live - it would be so beautiful and symbolic, considering he'd succeed where Anakin failed: saving the girl he loves.
Irina, especially if the filmmakers like the fairy tale imagery, like Snow White or Sleeping Beauty's kiss that brings them back to life. It's the true love's kiss trope. We know JJ liked fairy tale imagery in 7 (Rey running down Maz's Palace steps like Cinderella, the Prince and Princess motifs). That aside, in Star Wars the Dark Side of the Force is all about Death. It's about who you kill in order to fully become Dark and all those you eliminate in the process (Luke being told to kill Darth Vader in order to finish crossing over to the Dark, Ben killing Han in a failed attempt to finish his transition to the Dark in 7, Ben killing Snoke that does finally make him full-out Dark Side in 8). The Light Side is all about saving those you love in one way or another. Incidentally, no one save Kylo but Kylo. His long list of would-be savers include Uncle Luke, Mom Leia, Dad Han, Force-Connection-and-opposite Rey. If he brings Rey back using the Force (shoving it through him into her lifeless frame using his hand/s hovering over her?) to cheat death (isn't this a Dark Side ability?) that could swing him into balance because death and Dark Side are one part of the Force and life and saving it is Light Side. And it would be big enough to redeem him. Which is a tall order for that dude.
I know this is somewhat uncomfortable topic, but could you guys talk about the usurper/ holy mother trope with Ben and Rey (like in Oedipus Rex)
Nothing Freudian is unconformable for Lee. 😂
Been thinking of doing a brief solo podcast for Star Wars psych geeks for a while; an overview of use of defense mechanisms and Ericksonian developmental stages from a SW lens. We will forward this idea to her. Thanks!
u_u
Where's Denise? I enjoyed her insights
Because you don't like ours?!?!?! XDDDDDD ;)
(No offense taken, for real. Denise is great.)
You lost me a bit with the Freud stuff (not a fan), but I agree completely with everything else. In particular, I liked the part where you discussed Wuthering Heights, and how Rey and Kylo could follow a similar path to young Cathy and Hareton, while the failure of Padme and Anakin is like the failure of older Cathy and Heathcliff. I hate how half of the adaptations of that book don't even include the younger generation, which is for me the best thing about the story. Without it the story is just a tragedy with no redemption, which is IMO what the arc of SW would be if Episode IX ends with Rey and Kylo fighting to the death.
Sorry to hear about the Freud aversion; I bring him up often so if you keep watching these podcasts you'll either come to appreciate him or come to appreciate the mute button for my part of the discussion, lol. Glad you liked the episode as a whole. I agree about the Wuthering Heights parallel Irina made - just brilliant.
Look, I actually hate Freud - for many, many, many reasons (but Lee is still my friend despite that XD), and I know that in my upcoming master's degree in narratology, I'll have to see him a lot (*groan*). But the thing with the younger generation is that they're kind of... hard to get. A lot of people think Hareton and Cathy Jr. are boring, when they're anything but. They have all of Cathy Sr.'s qualities, and some of her faults as well, but not in a way that's destructive or selfish. On the contrary, they become selfless and unite, and together, they kind of "break" the curse Heathcliff has cast on both their families.
You know, if I had to adapt Wuthering Heights... I'd have Nelly tell Cathy Jr. the whole story, which would be what would motivate her later to somehow "break the curse" and gain back whatever agency has been taken away from her, along with Hareton.
You mentioned Romeo and Juliet and then talked about all the subtle hand holding that happened in Jane Austen's works and in North & South, but I'm surprised you didn't mention the scene when Romeo and Juliet first meet at the party. They have that whole conversation about hand touching and it's connection to kissing, remember?
Romeo takes Juliet's hand and says, "If I profane with my unworthiest hand, This holy shrine, the gentle sin is this: My lips, two blushing pilgrims, ready stand, To smooth that rough touch with a tender kiss." And Juliet basically tells him that touching hands in basically the same as kissing...;)
Bear in mind that "did you expect me to rejoice in the inferiority of your circumstances?" comes AFTER Lizzie has just shot him down. Basically, she says "piss off" and then rather than really say what he felt about *Wickham*, he shoots his mouth off and hits all the wrong targets! (my mother's an Austen scholar :D )