Was Jane Austen Unfair to Marianne Dashwood? | Sense and Sensibility Deep Dive
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It’s also important to remember she had just lost her father and her life dramatically changed in all the fundamental ways. It makes sense she clung to something/someone that would sweep her away.
Plus she is young and has never been burned by love before, so she throws herself in without caution.
A great point! Thank you!
I think you're absolutely right! When everything in your life is changing, you need something to hold on to. And Marianne's sweeping ideas about love ar this for her. It's familiar and comforting to imagine someone loving you wholeheartedly for their entire lives, especially after experiencing loss. She needs that emotional security, and the discovery of something new and thrilling (she's a blooming young woman of 17 with no life experience after all)
Great point of view. I often cringe at people disliking Marianne just because she did not notice Colonel Brandon at first. People should give her a break, she’s only 17 and has barely experienced the world
Such a great take! I'm writing a paper about this novel now, and these takes are really insightful.
I disagree with you. Austen never meant to favor control of emotions, absolutely the opposite. The balance between sense and sensibility is the core of the story. Marianne is never painted as a “bad” example at all. Brandon falls for her exactly because her lively and romantic nature and we know Brandon is the most honorable man in the story. The only “bad” example in the story is Willoughby and his selfish narcissism.
I also on my reread of Sense and Sensibility understood Marianne a lot more. I've thought that the ending is about both sisters understanding that they needed a bit more of what the other has, like Elinor needs to let others see her emotions; keeping them bottled up isn't healthy and Marianne to control and not let them rule her. I have 2 of those annotated Austens and am excited to try and collect all of them, they sound so informative.
I must admit, I have always felt sorry for Eleanor, her position as the older sister with all the responsibility that entailed was a hard and thankless job.
She definitely carries a lot of weight on her shoulders. Her social graces save Marianne from criticism for her rudeness too many times to count in this novel!
I think something that struck me about Marianne on my latest reading was when she tells Elinor about how her sickness and near death experience were linked to her understanding of the novels she read and idolized. She sees herself as a character in those books and thinks Willoughby looks like her favorite romantic heroes from the books. After he rejects her, she knows the leading lady must die as punishment for her being fallen. This time through I saw it as a critique of the Gothic romances and tropes, especially brought forward in the story of the two Elizas and that Colonel Brandon would have been the expected gothic villain and not Willoughby. I wonder how this fed into her limerence.
Wow thanks for this comment. I must admit that I don’t remember this part of the novel despite my having read all the Austen novels multiple times. I think it’s time for a re-read! I will look out for this passage!
@@tnav8001 yeah, when Marianne first meets Willoughby we get a section on how she imagines him as her favorite hero from a romance novel, so she's in love with a fantasy version of him. Thus her realization that she never really knew him hits her doubly hard.
I love that you've done videos for one character from each of the Austen books.
Explaining Lydia's mindset, standing up for Fanny Price, trying to understand Anne, and examining Marianne's sensibilities.
Hoping to see an analysis of Emma as the anti-hero!
I'm thrilled you like them!! They're so much fun to make. I'm planning to work my way up to Emma since it's my least favorite Austen 😂 I'll probably take on Northanger Abbey next year, Emma the year after.
Perhaps Jane Austen was able to so perfectly describe Mariannes feelings for Willoughby - her state of 'limerence' because Jane may have experienced the same in her relationship with Tom Lefroy for whom she most likely felt all of the emotions described. In her corespondence with her sister Cassandra it emerged that " she and Tom seemed not to care too much about hiding their preference for each other" just like Marianne and Willoughby.
I can identify with Marianne in so many different ways (it's one of the reasons why I like her so much):
1. She is experiencing a heightened sense of loneliness after the death of a loved one.
2. Marianne is a person of strong passions, desires, and feelings.
3. She desires a romance which will thrill her to the very core.
Like Marianne, I want to know what it's like to be swept off my feet by someone. I wouldn't want it to be dull or tame at all!
Thank you so much for your perspective on this character!
Just be careful not to fall into the arms of the wrong person. Narcissists and psychopaths are charming wolves.
also, she had reason for feeling that way: he got a lock of her hair, showing he was willing to commit to her. she felt immense betrayal and dispair when realized that she was waiting for one that will not come and she was deceived.
I agree completely with your analysis - Marianne`s behavior looks a lot like limerence. Even her initial confidence in Willoughby`s love isn`t anything unusual, because the initial stages of these kinds of relationships tend to be extremely intense and make you feel like you have met your soulmate - it`s a real high. The anxiety comes in later, when the idolized persons words and deeds start to differ from each other more and more. At first you can`t admit to yourself that you have made a mistake, you keep explaining away all the red flags, but your subconscious is picking up the signs and that does make you anxious. And the endings of these relationships can be absolutely crushing. It can take some people years to recover and trust anyone again. Especially when they have made the same mistake more than once with multiple people.
Its not that Elinor is "logical"; she is stoic. Marianne is not emotional; she is romantic. The novel is about about philosophical worldviews not psychological experiences.
This is my favorite JA novel bc I think of it as partly about the love story between the sisters, esp in the context of Jane’s real life devotion to her sister Cassandra. Agree that you read this book in different ways with age and experience, I tended more towards Marianne’s views in some ways when I was young, and feel now that they are both highly idealized ways of navigating life, but still love it! As for Jane’s treatment of Marianne- I’m a bit distracted by the use of limerence…isn’t it a guiding rule of any historical analysis not to directly apply more modern intentions and conditions to the behaviours and psyches of people/works of the past? It’s a little like saying maybe Mozart had ADHD because of some characteristics he’s known to have had. ADHD is so totally anachronistic to the era Mozart existed in that you end up saying more about our state of medicine and living than you do about his.
The thing is, Marianne probably felt like if she lost Willoughby, she would never ever find anyone else who loved her back. She felt like she lost the only chance she would ever have. That’s a key component of it.
So eventually realising that Col Brandon’s love was deeper, steadier & more sincere would be so reassuring to her: she’d be safe to let go & luxuriate in his adoration.
Excellent video! My take is Jane Austen thoroughly understands the complexity of love. It can be passionate or passive or aggressive and everything in between. I think Austen has experienced limerence on some level given her superb depictions of Marianne's experience.
The book is so relatable because I think most women can see themselves in both Elinor and Marianne. I've been young, in love, humiliated myself and my family all while drowning in limerence (1st marriage). Now I'm a bit older, wiser, calmer, have agency over my feelings and love from a place of peace (2nd marriage).
I absolutely love this! I love that you used psychology to explain what Marianne goes through. I adore Jane Austen’s stories and I enjoy psychology. This was an amazing video and I can’t wait to see more. Now I’m going to have to reread all of her books and so the same! Thank you so much for sharing!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Marianne serves as a 'blueprint' to what happens when a lady is getting almost seduced by a gentleman. Marianne is spared Eliza's faith because she still has her virtue and it seems that Willoughby cared enough not to ruin her. We are told through the story of Marianne that lack of emotional control and expressing feelings towards a person we hardly know will end up in a heartbreak (and we see this theme quite often in Austen's books) or even ruin of a woman and her entire family. Jane Austen does not go into 'fallen lady' in main characters here but she does so in Pride and Prejudice with Lydia, yet the danger of being seduced and seen as, well, basically a prostitute, always lingers in Austen's novels.
You do such a great job of sharing information with such clear language! I love your videos! Thank you!
I will definitely need to read this book again so I can pick up more of the characters. I thought it was clear that Willoughby was really and truly in love with Marianne, and that it's insinuated he choose someone else because of financial circumstance. Perhaps I'm misremembering that? I still hate him for it but I think it adds an extra layer of social commentary on marriage and class and financial security at that time. I've got off course, as this is a video about Marianne and not Willoughby, but it is something I think about when people talk about their romance. Love your videos about Jane Austen's characters. I haven't yet watched your video on Fanny Price as Mansfield Park is the last Austen novel I have left to read, but I'll be sure to watch it come Jane Austen July. 👍
I go back and forth on this one. Sometimes I believe Willoghby really loves Marianne, but if he does how can he crush her the way he does. I have no doubt Willoghby *thinks* he loves Marianne.
I think he loved her as much as a narcissist could, which is not very much
@@Texasmidwife I think when W first meets Marianne, his only intention is to play with her/use her as he did Eliza. But he gets swept up in Marianne's love and energy, and I think does end up falling for her. But W loves himself more than he loves anyone else, and there is no way he would let anyone, even Marianne, get in the way of him leading a rich/cushy life. He'll choose his aunt's money or the money of a wife he doesn't love over Marianne every time. Frankly, I think Marianne is very lucky to not have ended up like poor Eliza. I hate W more for what he did to that poor girl than for what he did to Marianne.
I found this fascinating; never heard of the term. I've been really enjoying your analysis of Austen's characters (and other literary characters). Thanks for posting this.
I aspire to make video essays such as these: concise, erudite, and just downright entertaining. I love your psychological takes on literary heroines; these are some of my favorites to watch. Well done, and thank you for doing justice to my namesake 😅
Hi Olive, it’s my first time commenting but I’ve been watching for quite awhile. I really enjoyed this video! It’s refreshing to see different perspectives on these wonderful characters. It brings to mind a video I watched some time ago by Dr Octavia Cox where she also comes to defense of Marianne, even going so far to suggest that Austen herself hints in the book that Elinor may not be so entirely logical as she may seem. This is made more apparent during the situation where Elinor notices the lock of hair that Edward carries. Elinor concocts the idea that Edward has somehow taken a lock of her own hair without her knowledge in order to comfort herself whereas Marianne has a more practical idea of where the hair may have came from. There are so many tiny subtle details in Austen’s writing and I love seeing people pull them out! Thanks for these wonderful insights! I really love your channel!
I had no word to describe what I went through with this one man.
And then today, I learned the word limerence.
I always saw myself as an Elinor, but the experience with this person had me taking a hard look at myself. I was completely Marianne when it came to this person.
I'm definitely a cross between Elinor Dashwood and Anne Elliot. I think Marianne had an idealized version of love and it culminated in a Regency era meet-cute. Of course she was never going to understand the type of love that Elinor and Edward shared, it wasn't exciting enough for her. She had to go through the heartbreak before she could accept the love of Colonel Brandon. Jane Austen was trying to tell us to have more sense than sensibility but you're right, I do think she pushed things quite far with Marianne being near death due to her impulses.
This is my first read of sense of sensibility and I first thought she is just a soft teen but your explanation makes much more sense
Thanks
You are erudite, insightful, and impressively articulate. Thank you for yet another excellent video. Cheers, Ardith
You're very kind, thank you!
Marrianne doesn't know enough to comevin outvof the rain.
When I was first introduced to Sense and Sensibility,(Emma Thompson movie) I actually always assumed that Marianne was the main character, but in a revisitation of it (I'm currently in a play of this namesake, I belive it was written with Elinor being that main character. I also liked what was said regarding emotion vs logic; one is not better than the other, but people who think more logically, (Perhaps like Jane Austne) don't fully understand that limerance, and vice versa, heart-led people can't comprhend the "bland" nature of logic thinkers. What I get from this book/discussion, is the need to not compromise one's tendencies, but to recognize the strengths and weakness of "sense and sensibility" in others and ourselves, and appreciating the different ways people think/do things.
I've seen the movie with Emma Thompson, but I can see that I'll have to read the novel. Putting it on the list for 2023, and I'll look for the annotated version Thanks, (I think) Olive!
Marianne is a typical teenager - immature and self-centered to the point of being selfish. She like most teenagers nowadays grows out of it and becomes a decent human being. So Austen was pretty on point.
This was really good. It makes me want to re-read this novel. I read it when I was very young…I can remember identifying with Marianne… Iwill be sure to get the annotated edition.
Marianne is very much like her mother.
The way Marianne describes Colonel Brandon is hilariously funny because her mother is a little older than he is and suffers with rheumatism,too 😅 She makes them sound ancient.
Austen had that ability to introduce sisters and their beaus in their different characteristics, opposites and allows the reader to say " Gosh, no....not him" !
Never get fed up re-reading her books.
Great video.
Love Jane Austen and read and re-read all her novels.
S&S can be very funny.
I am most like Elinor as well, but Marianne is my favorite character. She made the story for me and, perhaps because I’m hypersensitive at times, I deeply felt her pain and admired her. I started crying in the middle of my workout as I listened to the letter! I found her brave and strong to know the type of love she wants and go after it, even if she failed. I also admired how she stood up for herself and Elinor when people often tried to talk down to them and make them feel inferior. Like Elinor, it’s far too easy to bottle all your emotions in order to appear polite, and you often need an inner Marianne to remind yourself to stand strong. I feel many people erase all of her good qualities and just reduce the book’s message to “be sensible” when really we must have both, and avoid sensibility for sensibility’s sake.
I personally feel that although Marianne did idealize Willoughby and show signs of limerance, she wasn’t shallow or superficial in her love. She and Willoughby had many things in common, and understood each other on a deeper level. I would like to hear others’ opinions because I actually see Colonel Brandon as, though kind, being a poor match for Marianne. He says outright that he only “loves” her because she’s the spitting image of his dead girlfriend. I personally believe he is just as infatuated with Marianne in the same way it could be argued that Marianne idealizes Willoughby: for what they symbolize and not who they are. He sees Marianne as a second chance but not as her own person, just a pretty young innocent girl. Willoughby is a coward and a bit of a scoundrel but he and Marianne seemed to have had a love and attraction that went beyond appearances. Of course that doesn’t mean it wasn’t toxic, and it is for the best it ended, I just don’t think the way it ended means there were never true feelings in the first place. It’s not an all or nothing matter. The ending, though realistic, always makes me feel a bit rushed though, like Marianne just had to give up her childish notions and settle for a “decent”man who only valued her looks.
I personally disagree that it's just about her looks. Elinor is described as actually having more regular features and figure than Marianne, just not as tall. In that case Brandon would have at least tried to court her before he knew about Edward.
But when Brandon talks about Eliza to Elinor, he never once mentions her looks but her PERSONALITY as being similar to Marianne's. And he decribes himself and makes his decisions based on very 'gallant' sensibilities ather than purely practical ones like Elinor (she shakes her head over the duel; Brandon thinks it's the only thing to do; Marianne would have found it totally thrilling!) He's a total romantic himself, which is why I see him and Marianne as completely suited for each other. They both experienced betrayal and grief in their first love and grew as people after it; they can understand each other
I get this is a very late response, but you asked for other people to share their opinions and I felt you deserved to have at least one response! Have a great day! 🙂
I like your take on this! I always identified more with Marianne than with Elinor. You and me, Olive, are VERY different people! I was very subject to limerance up until my late twenties when the last time was too painful, and I learned a big lesson just like Marianne did. Though I've been calling it codependence; I'd never head of limerance before. But I think Jane Austen is saying more than that too (maybe it's mentioned in the annotated version) - 1811 was just that time when the Age of Enlightenment was turning into the age of Romanticism. She's also talking about the Old Ways (reason, elegance and self control) and the New Ways (emotion, enchantment, focus on the individual); what the kids were thinking was cool in those days and the danger she saw it leading to. Similar to her commentary in Northanger Abbey, the influence of those new gothic tales that put such out-of-whack ideas into the heads of young people.
Do you have any advice ? I'm going g thru exactly what marianne is going thru and realize I have limmerance. I'm in so much pain.
@@catcat9582 Oh you poor thing. That pain, I remember it. Like you can't believe you're still alive and inside your skin, it's just so bad. My advice is, see a clinical psychologist. Preferably one who does Schema Therapy. My doctor got me a mental healthcare plan which got me I think 10 subsidised psych sessions, it's worth seeing if you can get something like it too.
You feel like a victim. And yes, you are a victim. But you also need to be needed in an unhealthy way and there's some dark stuff inside you that needs to be faced. A really good psychologist can help with that. At least, I'm kinda talking to my own past self here, since I don't actually know you. But there is hope, and one day this will be behind you and you will emerge a much wiser person. One day it just won't be so painful. And one day much further in the future, you might even be glad it happened since it helped you learn so much about yourself. See a doctor. Get help. And don't be ashamed, it happens to lots of intelligent and good people. I wish you all the best.
OMG! So excited your channel came up in my feed today! Subscribe!! ❤❤❤
I'm happy to have you here! ❤️
Lime fence was a huge risk for Marianne.. colonel Brandon had had that experience himself and suffered for it. Jane Austen probably did experience limerence herself, she seemed to be very sensitive and not enjoy public exposure. She understands Marianne but is less patient with her. We do tend to be more critical of our own shortcomings when we encounter them in other people.
Limerence
I definitely have had some intense infatuation over the years. Of course my most recent feels like the most intense though I'm not sure it ever reached limerence
I still need to read the actual book, but what I always got from the 1995 adaptation was more-so Jane Austen highlighting the cruel and unfair standards of society at that time regarding love and marriage. This is also shown in Brandon's former love interest Eliza which only led to her reputation being ruined, and then having an "illegitimate" daughter who became the Colonel's ward, who then got pregnant from Willoughby. The one line I always remember is Colonel Brandon telling Elinor how she should not wish upon Marianne "a better acquaintance with the world" because it led to "ruination and despair". Marianne's character was a great example of what women her age, and with her situation of losing her father and having to be moved out into a small cottage would experience emotionally. Willoughby led Marianne on all the way to the point where he was about to propose, which could have made a huge difference to the quality of their lives as well. He was also very intimate to her for the time period they lived in. I think this led her to experience limerence, but I think it also shows how Marianne's father's death might have affected how she received love. There definitely is way more to Marianne when you really think about what she has had to endure within that span of her losing her father to having to leave their childhood home to becoming low income and then all of a sudden meeting a man who encourages your affections and behavior and then completely takes the rug from under your feet.
JA seems to have had a strong observation of seducers/flirts, who know about limerence and decide to sadistically play young women. Willoughby and Henry Crawford are two strong examples.
I really enjoy your analysis of Jane Austen characters. Does Marianne intentionally feeding her own distress align with limerence?
(I would LOVE to see an analysis of Daisy from Gatsby!)
Love your suggestion/request
I think we are leaving out the obvious that Marianne is a MUSICIAN! As a musician myself, we are allllll emotion and romance. She sings these sad and beautiful songs on the piano. It's pretty understandable that she would be living in her creative mind, objectifying her own sense of love and soul on another.
I love Marianne! Besides the fact she is very young and it´s very understandable for me she fell in love like that with someone who seemed to loved her back and who had all the things she valued in her romantic and naive perspective, for me, i see her as the one who has more growth troughout the book. She develops a beautiful maturity, empaty and appreciation of others, she is self reflective, learns from her mistakes and acts accordingly, and that, alongside her beautiful sensitivity, intelligence, generosity, passion and arthistic nature make, in my opinion a great character.
Me too!! I read the novel for the first time pre-internet, and had no idea so many, like this TH-camr, consider Marianne "annoying." And never any explanation...THAT is annoying!
Last night, I finished reading Pride and Prejudice for the first time. Then, I watched the 1995 film scripted by Emma Thompson. Emma rearranged many elements of the plot (by reducing the amount of time the sister spent in London with Mrs. Jennings, who may be a silly woman, but she is a silly woman with a large, loving heart) but Emma was true to Jane's ideas of the personalities of the Dashwood sisters and the people who cross their paths.
I felt that Willoughby was the master of seduction who was primed with the tiny edition of Shakespeare's sonnets. As I read the letter Willoughby sent to Elinor, I became angry because two centuries ago, men often ducked out of responsibilities with the I-never-did-anything-wrong language used in his letter. Then, when he visited the Dashwood home late at night, the first thing Elinor said was that she did not want to talk to him. He then steals the stage. Elinor, who can not get a word in edgewise, breaks in midway and asks why he came and why didn't he write a letter. Jane wasn't done with him yet. He came to the house because he felt his charm would change Elinor's feelings. A letter would have been too easy to ignore.
I suppose the biggest problem for all women of Jane Austen's time is their lack of emancipation. Not only did one have to marry, BUT well and not just financially. The past isn't just another country, but as time goes on it can seem even stranger than science fiction. Struggling with grief, a change of life as both girls were, they had to learn to live with a lack of money and status a new area to live in. I think that women who were said to have the 'vapours' or 'nerves' were actually stressed and frustrated due to the costraints of society. I have to also add, Marianne could also be acting the way a loved and indulged younger child might, possibly maling her more of a candidate for Limmerance But all in all this discussion is just one more reason why Jane Austen deserves her place amoungst the greats and her picture on the back of a £10 note.
Actually women did not have to marry. Jane Austen's stories are fiction, not documentaries. Most women in England were working class and well, WORKED. Most upper class women, including JA's own side characters such as Miss Bingley, had their own fortunes and did not HAVE to marry. JA wrote stories about the possible but by no means probable situation of being upper class but financially strapped because it is actually INTERESTING, and was interesting to read AT THE TIME. If she had actually been writing about a fate all women in the past experienced, it would have been too boring to read. It's made clear in S&S that the old relative leaving the money to his grandnephew rather than his nieces was shocking, P&P's situation of 5 daughters being born to a family with an entail where the father had foolishly wed a woman of no fortune is a VERY unlikely contrived circumstance for the sake of the romance! Fanny is a poor relation whose mother did NOT have to marry her father, and would have done better in society if she hadn't!
People need to stop basing their understanding of history off of one author's imagination! Yes, Jane Austen was REALISTIC; no, her books are still not REAL LIFE as Regency individuals would have experienced it. There is a lot more variation in every human society than there is in novels, and there has NEVER been a time in history where every woman's fate was the same and we were all expected to do the same thing! Real life and history are far more complex.
This novel is amazing but it really lacked dialogue there was never much dialogue between Marianne and the colonel despite ending together,unlike the situation in Emma where there was a great deal of dialogue,yet i believe that the theme of comparison was greatly successful as it has achieved its aim clearly
Okay, I didn't finish listening yet- but got to a chunk of your discussion about limerence- and I'm going to disagree. I think, if we are going to apply anything we know about modern times to these characters it should be human development and brain science. Elinor is the eldest sister, a responsibility role of the era - and 19, while Marianne is only 16.5 in the book at that time. I don't think it's limerence at all, but rather more to do with the trauma combined with her romantic ideals, and her age. Even today many 16 yr olds want to be "swept off their feet" - it's even what all the romantic comedies used to aim for. Essentially, I think Jane Austen is showing us what age and life experience can do to a person - and hints to this when C. Brandon is talking about how experiences can 'change' a person and the sadness he feels over some of that.
I would find it a major challenge to read a novel.
Love how you mentioned that you know they are literary characters and you are going to be talking about them like that. :-D Honestly, how else is a person supposed to talk about art? It´s so funny when you read comments about fictional works on social media and there is always that one person who says "it´s fiction". As if nobody noticed before.
Interesting, I thought most people experienced this, though I would call it "having a crush". Curious about your evidence for the claim that it's a poor basis for a romance. (I didn't follow what you meant by such romances not being based on something 'real'-are feelings not real?)
Not that they’re not real, just that feelings can be unreliable & relying on feelings *alone* for important decisions can be disastrous.
I'm only partly through the book and Willoughby has just left, but I watched the movie, so I know some stuff that's going to happen. As a fairly logical person myself, I don't identify with Marianne, but I don't really mind her being consumed by thoughts of Willoughby. What I do mind is her extreme rudeness towards Brandon. Never to his face, but there are so many scenes where she and Willoughby are making fun of him and I was just like... Did that man kill your dog or something?
Might be one of the red flags you were talking about, but that's the thing that really made me angry about her.
Elinores hurt is also prolonged substantially by her "sense over sensibility" approach. letting nobody in on her pain, listening to Lucy all the time, having people joke about her secret love, not asking what Edwards intentions really are and so on. Edward himself is forced by his sense over sensibility mindset to marry a woman he doesn't fancy and hurt the one he loves deeply. Also Lucy is the extrem of the sense type and not portraited as a likable character.
Jane Austen specifically wrote that Elinor's approach of not senselessly dwelling on her pain all the time like Marianne was far better for her peace of mind. She would not have shared modern 'sensibilities' on constantly blabbing about problems when that doesn't solve them!
I am so tired of people who clearly never read Jane Austen thoroughly trying to tell the rest us what she meant! She clearly stated, multiple times throughout the book, that Elinor's way of handling her emotions was better and healthier than Marianne's. You don't have to agree with her, but don't insult an author by saying she said something other than she did!
Do you really need to pathologise an intense adolescent love affair? Teenage romances are intense. They’re not called crushes for nothing. A very interesting video, nonetheless. I also have just re read the book. I think it was more a story of sisterhood than romance.
Pathologizing someone/something means implying there's something wrong going on. I didn't do that in this video. I talked about a (normal, regularly occurring) psychological phenomenon that I felt I recognized in a book written long before brain science was understood, which I think is interesting. I have a book channel. So yes, it was necessary because I, luckily, get to decide what I post here. I'm not sure the leading question in your comment was necessary, especially if you'd like me to believe you found this video interesting, but perhaps that's a matter of opinion.
@@abookolive sorry, I didn’t mean to offend you. Just discuss the video.
@@rowenaeddy1062 I'm sure you didn't mean any offense, nor did I take any! You asked if my video (one I worked hard to make) was necessary. I replied to the question.
@@abookolive I appreciate the work you put into your videos, and how they give me something to think about. On another tack, I listened to Penguin Lessons on your recommendation and thoroughly enjoyed it.
@@rowenaeddy1062 Thank you, that's very kind of you! And I'm delighted you enjoyed the Penguin Lessons! What did you think of Bill Nighy's performance?
Mariqnne didn't know enough to come in out of the rain.
Life is pretty messy.
I’m probably the only one who has never read this book. But I think it may be time that I do.
You're definitely not the only one who hasn't read it! It's still not my favorite Austen after this reread, but it's well worth a read.
How is limerance different from stalking behavior, controlling behavior and obsession? Seems like an excuse for disturbing behavior. It seems like a excuse for domestic violence. "If I can't have you, then no one can" Philosophy.
I've never seen Elinor as "the good one" while Marianne the "emotional one." Well, it's not about 'good' or 'bad,' then again I'm a modern reader, perhaps JA was trying to show that by being reserved, graceful, and adhere to 'sense,' was the way to go, but as a modern reader I always find that the sisters just have different personalities and they express themselves differently. People often forget too that their father, the 'rock' in their life just passed away, then they lost their home having to move to the cottage at Barton Park. In my opinion, being uprooted, losing a father...for a young woman who just turned 17...that's a LOT. I'm actually more surprised that Elinor was able to repress herself in such a manner, it's got to be so unhappy for her.
Jane Austen very clearly wrote than Elinor's behavior was healthier and happier for her than Marianne's. Not that she was a better person, but that she had the better approach. This may not be in line with modern 'sensibilities,' but it is what Jane Austen WROTE. Not hinted at, wrote! There are multiple passages where she writes that Elinor's calmness at least spared her and her family further pain while Marianne's dwelling on her suffering made it worse. Calling Elinor 'repressed' when she is SPECIFICALLY STATED to be a good example, is just an insult to the author. If you don't agree with the message of HER book, doesn't mean you get to change it.
I think you can let yourself get to that emotional state. There is volition involved. Immaturity being the most important variable.
Good insights! Thank you! I find Marianne quite annoying, but I soften towards her when I remember she is only 17. She acts like a teenage brat, incredibly rude towards Mrs. Jennings. My granddaughters are in their teenage years, so that helps my tolerance of her. I find her mother harder to tolerate. She lacks sense. Now, many find Colonel Brandon attractive. I find it totally disgusting that a 35 year old man should go after a 17 year old girl. Yes, I know this is set 2 centuries ago, but believe me, I would be livid if it was my daughter or granddaughter!
I think there are tons of women who have had this condition. It’s pretty common, I’d say.
I really like your psychological approach to Jane Austen characters. It gives another layer to already deeply woven books.
I was wondering, have you ever heard or seen the close readings from Dr. Octavia Cox? She analyses Marianne and Elinor in this video: th-cam.com/video/ihxg7pfbdbs/w-d-xo.html.
And her argument sounds to me like: because Elinor is a calmer type person, less emotional she is considered much more sensible. And Marianne, because she is very emotional seems unreasonable at times. Yet they both actually get things very right sometimes and wrong at others.
I would be very interested to hear your opinion on the analysis from Dr.Cox combined with yours. :)
All the best, and please keep making content about Jane Austen.
That's an interesting explanation for why Marianne falls so hard. Thank you.
I think she fell for the idea of love .
I personally think Marianne would have been wise to reject Brandon and find a man without baggage.
I think of Marianne as having ADHD, with all of the hyperfocus and emotional disregulation that come along with it.
Dear Abukolive. I think the control of feeling, the behaviour of Elenor is due to fear , fear of the result of the ultimate effect which could end to such AN esplosive
Outburst of Marianne. Fear of extreme delusion. ME myself i am oriented towards prudence. . And moderation. Knowing very well. Stories are not always happy anded
Excuse me for my bad english.
I don't understand why he would treat her like that
“He” being Willoughby? There’s another modern psychological word for him: narcissism.
Sorry but what kind of book reviewer needs to make it clear the characters arent real? Also do you think scifi means having unrealistic characters?
The kind that has previously gotten comments from people who say I talk about characters as though they are real.
I’m so sorry anyone has felt the need to bully you because you speak like a normal reviewer. Don’t listen to people like that. (Easier said than done?)
I never liked marianne. silly, effusive and shallow, she should take a pill, and col brandon would be sorry later on
I liked her better once she matured. A bit.
Great video! Although, I would argue that Marianne didn't have a limerant relationship with Willowby because he honestly returned her feelings. I would describe limerence as almost having a parasocial relationship with an actual person. I couldn't agree more with your comments about Marianne being primed for Willowby. I would attribute it more to the loss of her father, home, and social status.
I also picked up a great deal of affection for Marianne from Austin. I thought she was trying to show young ladies that real love is not the drama and flowery speech of poetry. It is trust, compassion, and daily persistent effort. I thought she was saying love is worth dreaming of, but keep your feet on the ground and look deeper.
Marianne was fastidious, opionated and ardent as most girls of her age, and Jane Austen depicts her crisis with a measure of detatched sympathy .The question is really rather silly,.
Then I'm content to be silly.
The loneliness of the long enduring heroine
We must agree to differ. I have bee a student of Jane Austen over even decades and read the novels probably every year, and have a kee interest in literary criticism. One criticism I read by Q.D. Leaves makes a distinction between plot , theme and narrative Perspective.
The general theme of Jane Austen' novel .cul minating in Persuasionis that the prevailing ethos,moravs and manners was not favorabl e to women and that is reesonated in her letters and comments to her sister, her niece amongt others. Withh the break up of the Agrarian Society under the joint pressures of the Napoleonic Warand the Industrial Revolution when a new class was summoned into existance which generally emerge with credit whilst the Gentry do not and in Persuasiona mature woman makes a decision to Jettison the gentry and to marry a professiona l sailor. The queston which all her novels explore would seem to be her theme nmely
Given the amount of time that a man and a woman by coventions and manners on what basis can the form a judgement as to her prspects of happiness?
For the same reasons on what criteria can a woman on the cusp of the transfer from daughter to wife discrimiinate between the false ad the True
This is explored in Sense and Sensibility in the context of a mother and her two daughters when there is theadditional pressure of the to girls being less eligible to command the samedegree of security by being no longer grounded in the gentry by loss of status..
JaneAustendoes not compare the sisters o a basis of 'Fairness' she objectively compares the conduct and circumstances of the two sisters bearing in mind that Marianne two or three yoears younger than Elinor as all the opinionated prejudices, ideals, and temper of young women. Marianne's fastidiousness and her principles are to be tried andfound wanting in the crisis,not because she is thelesser in talent and intellect because shehas not had the resposibility that Elinor has need to acquire of a mother bordering on irrresponsible nd indulging Marianne often without heed to her eldest daughter . She admits that when she discovers the truth about Edward's enggeent to Lucy Steel, and Marianelearnsabout the engagement in thecoureof her own suffering. JaneAusten certainly commends Elinor because her suffering is intensified by loneliness and her ethical integrity. She feels bound to keep her suffering to herself whilst attendig to her younger sister
I amsorry if my temperamentalipatience ved me to be rather terse nd dismissive of your discussion and I hope tht this goes some way to explain why I do not thing you have posed the right question. As Devoney Looser emphasises in her Wndrium Coureo Jane Austen the title is not acomparson between Sense and Sensibility but problem of emphasis, experience and temperment.Jane Austen is not 'condemning Marianne for her Sensibility nor indeed for her fastidious if opinionated and intolerant view of less aesteticss.She is grappling with her own principles and ideals and with some measure of success, but the issue is that given their situation and experience and difference in ages Elinor is better prepared to cope with a crisis in her hopes and this preparatio of beinng effectivdlythe wises ot th four women and themost realistic. We do not have to me allowances of Marrianne, becaue that is not her case. The Characteristic of all Jane Austen's Novelsis that the Heroine by force of circumstance is lonely and heroine because she is by her temper and ethics separated from her family or circle. They are thrown into this turmoil partly by a lack ofparents or the deficiencies of a parent .
Just e observatio tangential to thelast point.
I have been reading some of the Children's classics
Annne of Green Gables
Secret Garden
Little Women
The Railway Children
What Katie did
In all cases the heroine is without one parent or both during the narrative.A parent is either dead, or separated. I do not attempt to explain this, at lest Not here, but I observe it and I notice that in most cases in Jane Austen there is either parent dead or deficient or both and this is part of their lonliness. In technical terms it may permit the author to plot the narrative independently of the mores of the time, and I notice that in this respect all the Bronte Novel throw the heroine onto her own resources and likewise Mrs. Gaskell. I follow your discussionswith Interest but forgive me, at 82 and acquainted with a broad span of literature both English and European I find that this theme of loneliness is a recurring feature in Heroines and heroes, and in depicting this in their plot I do not think 'Fairness' is an appropriate quality by which to judge. Isobel Armstrong in a translation of a Oxford Classis edition remarks that Austen's novels are viewed on the continent as Bildungs Roman and I find that as good a category as any
bildungsroman, class of novel that depicts and explores the manner in which the protagonist develops morally and psychologically. The German word Bildungsroman means “novel of education” or “novel of formation.”
@@abookolive
I would have found your essay easier to read if you had proofread & corrected it. It was interesting & off-putting.
@@benedictcowell6547I must sincerely doubt your claim to be a 'student' of Jane Austen when you cannot even write coherent sentences yourself.