Hello! There’s a larger discussion to this topic that I wasn’t aware of when making this video - th-cam.com/video/qJN8VDjJ_to/w-d-xo.htmlsi=09S2f1SmDFaoyL3L is kind of a part 2 to this discussion with more consideration for the larger issues at hand
As someone who doesn't care that much about dancing skills in kpop, watching them dancing without music made me realize how much they move and how impressive it is.
I mainly think its lack of proper vocal training. I think that a lot of idols got into this industry due to their looks and charisma over genuine talent in singing and dancing and currently companies don't really seem interested in training them much musically anyways and focus on the dance and performance aspect.
It's not a LACK of training. Not anyone can just sing really good with enough training. Singing involves A LOT of natural talent. This is why all arounders are so rare. Not everyone can be the best at everything. If they cared about good singers they would only recruit people from the The Voice. If you like singers than stan the singers, I don't see a point of criticizing idols that can't sing just so they feel bad?
Thing is Kpop is still about music. People have a right to criticise someone's voice especially when it's apparent they cant sing all that well. Yes she brings charisma but so does chaewon and yunjin. Personally it's counterproductive to not criticise kpop vocals as kpop is becoming more global and people would like to know if who they're stanning can hold a tune
Is it that people personally want to stan vocally talented idols, or is it that people are offended that other people don't have the same preferences, resulting in "undeserving" idols being successful
Kpop has never been solely about the vocals in music, even in early gens. There’s a reason why second gen introduced the position of visual. Suzy’s official debut position was visual and maknae. It wasn’t until late second and early third gen really when positions really started mixing (it was ALWAYS acceptable for a member to just be a dancer or visual). I don’t understand why this is suddenly an issue with newer generations. Idols aren’t always singers and singers don’t always have to be idols. If you want vocals, turn to balladeers. You go to Kpop for the performance factor. Hyoyeon from SNSD has always said she is an idol/dancer/DJ, NOT A SINGER. She’s been very outspoken about this over the past decade. It’s okay for you to want vocals or Stan a vocal centric group, but to hold that as the main factor for success or as a mandatory to be an “idol”, is very misconstrued.
@@MissyxAkunaiNobody said they want vocals. OP even said, just carry a tune. That is a basic requirement for any musical performer. People don’t want to pay concert tickets for someone who can’t sing at all. Personally, I think a consumer (kpop fan) is allowed to ask for improvement from you. They only ask so because they believe you have potential and you’re simply not fulfilling it. A “hater” would simply tell Sakura that she was bad at singing, the real fans are telling her she’s bad at singing and giving her ways to improve her singing, some even going into the specifics of how she can improve and also commenting positively on areas she’s already good at. Also, if you care about your craft, you’re never satisfied with the fulfilling the bare minimum. You’re constantly seeking to improve anyway, so you would gladly accept criticisms, if it meant constant improvement. There are many kpop idols that take money out of their own pocket to pay for vocal lessons themselves instead of waiting for the company they’re signed to to improve their vocal department. Sakura simply doesn’t care about the craft of singing at this point. Fans have a right to be done with her, or to still ask for improvement. All I’ll say is they’re asking for disappointment because at this point, it’s been 10 years. She’s not looking to improve.
@@MissyxAkunai i think the issue here is that 2nd gen group "visuals" were never expected to be anything more than visuals. they barely got lines in songs, they just stood there, looked pretty, got Ad deals and acting gigs, everyone was cool about it. but in 3rd and 4th gen, kpop stans suddenly started wanting "equal line distribution for the whole group" and "appreciation" for the visual members, new gen fans get offended and drag you for not pretending that the less skilled idols are also good singers or listening to their solo projects. if people are gonna be peer pressured into acting like they enjoy every member's singing to not get called solo stans, then every member better be good.
I think HYBE (Source Music) is the one that needs to hear the criticism. Sakura not being able to sing proves that HYBE doesn’t properly train their idols (vocally).
If that was the case, then Kazuha should've been on the same boat. She's been singing professionally for barely 2 years. But, she's actually improved quite a bit since debut. She's already surpassed Sakura in dancing, singing, and even Korean. So, it's not really Source/HYBE's fault. No hate, but it's just Sakura. She doesn't have the vocal cords for standard singing. Her type of voice is best suited for AKB style of singing. Which is why she sounds better in those songs. But, people take those examples and think it's everyone's else fault and Sakura is the victim.
The girl just can’t sing man. Ever heard of tone deafness? Sometimes you can try and try and still can’t improve. But that’s not her role in the group anyway. Saying all their idols can’t sing is just showing kpop twt bias atp.
Sakura has been an idol for almost 10 years now, she literally improved on every single aspect except that one. You literally have herself saying it even in the debut LSF documentary. She cannot sing, she reached the peak of what she can do and must stay on her comfortable tone to at least not sound bad. People thinking otherwise are completely delulu and missing the point. The whole point of the video and what kpop kids need to understand is that it doesn't mean it's bad, groups need such a varied amount of talents that is simply impossible for everyone to be on the same level, her talents are naturally elsewhere and they are as needed and functional to the group like Chaewon or Yunjin's vocals. Absolutely none of them have the comedic timing Kura has, it comes out so naturally she's bound to lead variety shows eventually, she's quite the competent dancer too, slower learner than the rest but definitely gets the job done. Those are her strenghts and we all know that.
I expect an idol to be able stand still and sing a damn song with stability. Why is that too much to ask for? Not all idols need to be a vocal powerhouse but they should at least be able to hold a note.
i agree, i don't get defending idols who can't even sing their own parts. its their job at the end of the day and top groups like LSF get paid millions so at the very least they should be capable of singing their lines. all they get is around 10-20 seconds lines for a song so how can't they sing that while standing? it's embarassing and LSF already got criticised for their unforgiven encore just to not improve almost a year later. if sakura, eunchae and kazuha cant sing and improve then hybe needs to reduce their lines by a lot and let yunjin/chaewon sing 80% of their songs.
But why? Would you expect a bad dancer not be in the choreo? Would you expect some who isn’t as outgoing to be on these variety shows? K-pop groups are “groups” if they each had every ability they would be soloist but they don’t so they put these groups together to cover their bases. Stop focusing on an individual when it comes to how these groups perform. Literally the only time they will ever be required to sing live is during this encores. Aka 1% of the time and after a massive win. All these bad expectations do is shit on someone’s parade when they should be celebrating.
@@BagelsandJewce the main part of being an idol is still singing. they sell music which requires singing.. and groups with bad dancers rarely have intense choreos and the bad dancers are always in the back. and if they can’t sing live for once then they deserve the criticisms
I totally get your point and it’s important to acknowledge that kpop idols are more than vocalists and can excel in different areas and bring a variety of strengths. K-pop idols are however musical artists. In my opinion, it is valid for listeners to point out the low vocal standard of kpop, no matter how realistically, truly productive or not it is. While Sakura has other strengths and brings valuable assets to the table, I don’t find anything disrespectful or rude in analysing her vocal skill, or in her case, lack there of. Vocal is an area of real struggle for her and it has been for years. And still, she proves to be a hard worker who has improved in other areas to become a great performer.
ofcourse analysing is not disrespectful but 90% of the comments adressing her contain very foul language and hate. I've maybe seen 10 comments out of the thousands of replies that contain constructive feedback.
The thing with kpop fans is that due to fanwar nature, there are a lot of annoying ppl who just... love to hate. There are ppl who are genuinely giving Sakura (and hybe's bad vocal training as a whole excluding pledis who actually gives solid vocal training) constructive criticism, and there are ppl who are MASSIVE haters using foul language and just being plain disgusting in order to praise other ppl they stan
It's funny that you say that because I've read all the comments under this video and there is not a single hateful comment so far, all I can see is the 10% of "constructive criticism that is rightfully justified and backed with tones of arguments behind it. Why are you trying to victimize someone and say that people are hating on her in the comment section when it's literally not what's happening here. @@michaeldang6734
When it comes to Sakura, I recall her saying in the LSF documentary that she felt insecure about her vocals, and even cried about it. While she has improved as a performer, her singing is still lacking. HYBE clearly doesn't seem to prioritize vocal development. However, the company's top priority should be leave minors alone, the next would be to revamp their vocal training structure. They clearly know how to produce great dancers and performers, where oftentimes it seems like they just let their idols coast with whatever vocal skills they already have.
I can only speculate but this could be why she has not improve bc of her insecurity. Hence why she has barely any lines. It also makes me wonder if other idols with little lines also want it that way bc they are not great singers and are utilized for visuals and stan attractor thing. Hence this aspect differentiates kpop to actual musicians
The thing, imo, is that talented is earned. People should just put efforts into it. Like... she can improve and it's not far from fetch. Constructive criticism is ok but not hating on her tho...
@@armyswhoblinkonce2711 ik but since they are speaking about talent and stuff. Imo, if we go that route. Many of them aren't talented and just trained to be skilled so what's the difference with Sakura ? (I am speaking as a fan of Le sserafim)
I'll take the risk but here's my point of view. I'm not defending those who are insulting her or even making fun of her, of course, but in the other hand I can't say that people criticizing her are wrong. I think that to this point, it would be good to stop providing idols excuses for every bad reviews they get... Sakura is not able to sing her own song correctly while standing straight during multiple encores. We're not talking about hard performances, not even incredible singing skills, but just singing her own song while standing straight and not being out of key... this is really the basics of the basics... And they're going to perform at Coachella this year ?! I'm really afraid of what kind of rude critics she may receive that time and not only from kpop fans... :/ So yeah, I'm not completely ok with the fact that we shouldn't criticize her in public.. the major part of the review I've seen weren't rude but just right. It's literally her job, what she's paid for. People are not waiting for perfection, but just a correrct job. And If she's professional, which I'm really sure she is, she'll take these critics and work harder on her singing skills, maybe with taking classes or practicing more. She already has a very long and impressive carrier, her experience will help her !
Nobody pays for encore performances. Nobody was cheated out of their money. Idols having an entertainment job doesn't mean they have to take whatever the audience throws at them. Some people think not dating is a part of the idol job!
@@bopete3204 I get your point. I used the example of encores just like we saw recently, because this is the perfect example where you really sing live with no lipsync, no back track.. and she is always out of key. Maybe during akb48 and izone she was able to rely on the high number of members But now she's part of a five member group under one of the biggest agency in the world, who's making music destined to the international public and.... she can't sing... I don't think It's taking whatever the audience throws at them (cause ofc I know that it often happen, that idols are no superheroes and not every groups have all rounder members)... But here It's literally about being part of a group of singer and not knowing how to sing... Idk but for me it's.. concerning ? 😆
I would agreee with the "is more about charisma and character" take if they were only influencers but they're not, they're kpop idols, and kpop has had a huge impact on the music industry globally. In my opinion it is more about the music, without music releases there wouldn't be a chance to see their charisma and character, so yeah i think that being able to hold a note while standing still is to be expected from an idol rather than just having charisma
Idols are not about music, music has perhaps become one of the strongest qualities an idol can have, but if we are really honest the kpop industry is not about that. They are artists with the aim of entertaining their fans by any means necessary, it is no coincidence that in this industry they pretend to be their fans' boyfriends, they become actors, they go on variety shows, they go to fashion events... Geisha is an ancient classic example that was the closest to this. It's the type of entertainment that has always existed in Eastern culture, but not so much in the West.
Here is my argument as a Kpop fan since gen 2: Would you ever imagine back then in the day people like Yoona and Hyoyeon from SNSD would already be criticized as "can't sing"? Would u ever believe that SNSD was put into question about whether or not they can sing and they only got recognized years later? Thatz how high the standards were back in the day. Back then, u have to be skillful to debut. That required years of trainings and tons of investments. But ever since Kpop was opened to international markets, the standards kinda became much more distorted when people like Sakura, Eunchae, and Shuhua can debut while people who are actually skilled and well-trained got rejected all the time. That put us into this question: was it fair for people who actually worked hard, and gifted with talents? Im not saying Sakura did not work hard. She did, but the same improvements in dancing werent seen in her singing. Was it her fault? Not entirely when Hybe artists now are also stagnant with their skills and Hybe invested nothing on that. But it is obviously not fair for those that actually have the true passion and skills for singing and work hard on that. It kinda cheapens the standards of singing. So to answer: who benefit from these criticisms? It would be the standards of talents in the entire Kpop industry as well as our expectations of artists. Kpop was never like this back then. Kpop and pop music in general should always be for people who are gifted and if not, at least work hard for it. Criticisms of Sakura is a reminder that we can do much better. And i genuinely believe Sakura herself can do much better. Just give her the right resources. Her power of will is already immense
I saw a video where Haewon tells Jihyo how she only trained for like 3 years while Jihyo did 10, which only served to remind me how crazy little some idols train nowadays.
Yeah, true, but in Haewon's case it doesn't really matter because she's really talented in both singing and dancing. Also Jihyo is a bit of an anomaly (which shows in her skillset), i would say the average training time in 3rd gen was probably around 5-6 years. @@veila0924
@@veila09243 years is not little at all... Jihyo debuted at 18 which means she's been a trainee since she was 8... That is insane and should not be the norm nor the standard...
@@namanh8439not first 7, first 4. Her mother said that JYPE told Jihyo to be an idol when she was around grade 6 or 7 that's 12 years old in Korea. Still, even if Jihyo isn't the best vocalist out there but more of average side, over the years she's become some of the best performers and her dancing has gotten better as well.
Does HYBE suck at training idols' vocals? Yes. Can Sakura improve her vocals outside of company? Yes. Plenty of idols such as Suhyun from Akmu, Minzy from 2ne1, Hyolyn from Sistar, Woojin former Stray kids improved after taking lessons outside of their respected companies during hiatuses and contact expirement. Then you also have examples of Taemin and Tiffany that have their improvements water downed because they're from SME, even though a lot of SME idols didn't improve. It's easy for Sakura to say she's read comments and then ask producers for less lines and look stressed out during every encore despite having basic lines. If every other female idols get negative attention for forgetting a dance step twice, then Sakura should be getting one to unity she improves and I'm sorry for coming off as cruel.
Even in Hybe, Jin from BTS had to seek external vocal lessons to improve his singing bc in BTS early days he struggled to keep his voice stable and had a very nasal tone that didnt fit him at all, and he had to learn to sing from 0 since he entered the company as an aspiring actor and then got moved to a kpop project, so he used to get very few lines. Once he started improving on his singing he eventually got more parts in the songs, and from their concerts his voice sounds so good! And even someone like Jimin who is very criticized about his vocals (he's not bad every single time and also had some improvements since debut, but these past years he regressed a lot and i say this as a huge fan of bts), started to take more vocal lessons last year before he got into the military bc he saw how he got criticized for his encore during Face promotions and said on a livestream that he felt he needed a lot of improvement to show fans a better performance. 4th gen idols just need to get out of their company trainers comfort zone and start getting serious with their improvement if they dont want to get a bad rep or start feeling bad about "bringing the group down". I hope the best for Sakura in the future, she's a hard working person and she can be a decent singer if she puts her mind into it!
@@mayruuh you're honestly right. idk what wtf happening at hybe, while jin has improved tremendously and has honestly become my favorite vocalists in the group along with JK, taehyung and jimin seem to be regressing by the year. idk if it's after MOTS era or LY: answer, but they started singing songs out of their comfortable range and haven't stopped since. instead of fixing the issue, hybe nowadays just pitch corrects the shit out of their songs and lets them struggle live. its kinda disappointing cause singularity, stigma, serendipity, and lie were so perfect vocally, i thought it was only gonna go up from there. they really need to start having vocal lessons outside of the company.
@@Callisto_52Hzbts imo have had their sound change too much with excessive auto tune. Listening to their older songs from 2013-2016 and comparing them to their releasing 2018-now you release how much more auto tune your hear. Like before they obviously did the kpop thing where they smoothed out the voices and you don’t hear any imperfections. But now they rely a lot on auto tune when signing, maybe to compensate for not being able to hit higher notes, but the auto tune has become a lot more apparent, and since it works for them, I don’t think they’ve themselves have needed to vocally improve. I mean why would you want to improve if you don’t need to, since you’re fans will still listen to the music? There’s no gain you get, like maybe you get some criticism, but it isn’t as bad as that one time twice was getting flames for their encore stage each time during that one comeback a couple of years ago. -so they improved their encore stages. If you’re not getting that type of hate. You don’t need to improve, and if you’re not trying to improve you may eventually regress.
There should always be a place for constructive criticism. If not, then the industry should just shift from music if charisma and character are the forefront. But I definitely do agree that the nature of the backlash she’s receiving is more hateful, disingenuous, and not beneficial at all. Those are my two cents.
Kpop is first and foremost a MUSIC industry and what separates an idol from a random backup dancer IS singing or rapping. (Not saying it has to be outstanding btw). If you can't do either you're not really an idol. Critique towards an objectively terrible vocal performance IS valid and NOT hate. While it is normal in jpop to have group members that never really contribute to any (degree of) vocals, this is kpop and not jpop. In kpop - since the very beginnings - the whole fun of the fandom was to consume the MUSIC and to give our 2 cents on it. This includes the vocal performance as this is the MOST important thing on the albums you consume. Plus. Critique in general is important so anyone can improve and do better. Kpop ents need to know what we accept and what we don't accept in order to have more effective sales and to protect the overall quality of the industry. Even if they don't listen to us: Ultimately music is art and art is meant to be critiqued. It's not weird to want to consume a music industry by talking about what actually matters. I actually find it concerning when people who personally don't care about any singing/rapping go out their way to shame/gaslight others for doing so. It's not okay imo. It's uncomfortable energy :(
I'd argue Kpop is about performance much more than it is about the music. Why, of all music artists in the world, many of whom have much more to offer vocally and creatively than any kpop artist, would you be into kpop? The shift towards performance oriented groups happened because performance is what draws people in and because most idols make the most money out of concerts aka performing. I am not happy with the current vocal standard of kpop but I find the dismissal of dance and performance art very disrespectful. Not to mention that vocals on album are always mastered and processed. Sounding good on an album has nothing to do with your live singing ability so I find that a ridiculous argument.
@@mimil5338 I get what you are saying in that Kpop has the added dance aspect but it’s not a dance team it is a music genre therefore it cannot be about performance. The majority of those who consume Kpop consume it through the music. While the performance aspect is what sets Kpop apart from things like pop it will always be about the music first or else you have dance teams
@@mimil5338Nobody is dismissing dance. What everyone is saying, me included, is that vocals is THE more important aspect compared to vocals and what DOES set an idol apart from a backing dancer. Nobody's saying backing dancers aren't good or worthy. Nobody is saying dance doesn't matter AT ALL in kpop. It's a good aspect of it, but not the #1 characteristic for a music industry. You can't see dance on a CD, you know. Most people don't watch all the live performances, but at most just the MV. These numbers can be seen directly on TH-cam for any group. So yeah. Dance is important, stage presence is important. But just not as important as being able to vocally deliver. That has always been a objective distinction between an idol vs just a dancer.
@@soomi I’m sorry but what you said is contradictory. If most people aren’t watching live performances, then live singing ability shouldn’t matter and neither should this encore. I don’t even disagree that there should be a higher standard for live vocals, but the way you’re presenting your argument doesn’t make sense.
The nuance in the criticism is that if people are trained to sing, dance and perform, there is a basis for what can be expected. No one expects Sakura to be able to hit high notes like an opera singer but after 10 years of singing. You can expect her to be able to hold a note stably after more than ten years of being an idol (and yes, mistakes are allowed!). It's up to the company to find a balance between what their artists can realistically achieve after this training and with their given capabilities. Some companies go wrong with this (JYP, for example, often gives ITZY and TWICE songs outside their 'comfortable' performable vocal capabilities. The same applies to Le Sserafim. For instance with Blackpink (or New Jeans, 2NE1, GIDLE) , one of their strengths, is that for even the weaker vocalist of the group the songs are still fitted perfectly to what they realistically can perform and still sound good when preforming live.
it’s sad how low the standard in kpop has gotten for live vocals. sakura gets most of the criticism because she’s been an idol for over 10 years and shown no improvement. why should people be lenient with someone who haven’t improved? she could’ve had a variety career after izone but instead she CHOSE to pursue an singing career again. shes rich and can afford outside lessons if hybe’s vocal coaches are bad or ask for less lines in their music
People say vocal criticism doesn’t matter and yet the 2nd generation of K-POP exists. 🙄 Also vocals matter because the real question is if Sakura can’t sing why does Sakura get to be an idol and the girl dancing in the background doesn’t? If all Sakura can bring to the table is her performance abilities why is she not a background dancer? Honestly, I don’t think people have realized how watered down and one-dimensional K-Pop music has become BECAUSE we let the K-Pop industry get away with not even giving minimal attention to the state of their idol’s vocal or rap abilities. They receive training to sing in a way that appeals to the most people and don’t actually invest long-term in the healthy growth of an idol’s abilities. Expectations are the lowest they have EVER been and yet the vast majority of main vocalists in 4 gen groups wouldn’t even make it as lead vocalists in a 3rd gen group. It’s absurd and depressing! This needs to stop and industries need to be the ones that are targeted.
well ideally our ears would benefit from this criticism if it were taken into account by anyone involved. i do think sakura has been singled out a little unfairly considering kazuha and eunchae are nearly just as bad. but in the end, we’ve ended up with so many poor idol singers because of the tendency to exclusively praise whatever music/performance is put out by an idol group regardless of the quality. in an ideal world people would not be buying mass quantities of an album when the music/singing sucks. but hybe seems to have made an art form out of this (see: bts, txt, enhypen, and now le sseraphim). how can we combat this trend of poor singing if not thru criticism? my main quarrel is with hybe and their constant refusal to provide vocal training, and until some change is made there you’re not gonna find me buying any album from any group who can’t sing a 2min song standing still.
i only have one thing to say: kpop is a product. we are the consumers. if the product is "faulty" we have the right to complain. sakura's job is to entertain. and she can't even hold a note. we have the right to criticise her.
I disagree. I'm frankly tired of idols not being able to perform or performing badly. I'm tired of lipsyncing in every performance. I don't care if they're out of breath and I can hear it during their singing, I want just a tad bit of authenticity in this plastic genre.
Second comment: I saw the encore by now and I can honestly say it's not the worst thing I've ever seen. Although it is concerning how much anxiety a lot of idols exude when performing these encores, probably knowing somewhere someone will post some hate comments on it for real. Ultimately it's their entertainment's job to prepare them for these events, so they go by smoothly without stress and anxiety for the idols. I definitely hold Source accountable for putting them in this situation like this in this state. Both the nerves and the quality of the live performance. People do forget that encores should be about celebration and that it doesn't have to be 100% perfect, although now the discussion on encores alone has become so bitter and toxic that to a degree I don't blame any idol for having anxiety over it.
I just want to point this out that being a "musical artist" doesn't mean that you should be able to write, compose, or produce music. A singer is also considered a musical artist even tho they can't write or produce.. I've seen many people say that not every musician is an artist but if you actually look up what a musical artist means, it's quite literally that. So singers ARE musical artists..
Yeah after reading through the comments, I had a skewed perspective on what “artist” means in the context of music. I assumed “artist” was more of a title that is earned by someone who takes the craft and art of music into consideration, whereas non-artists are the ones who are less involved in the production process and perceive the industry as more of a business than a form of expression I didn’t mean to make it sound like I don’t consider performers artists - performance is absolutely an art form in it’s own right - but it really does sound that way in this video 😭 I apologize
That reminds me of people saying kpop rappers aren't real rappers if they never write their own lyrics. Come on now. They ARE rappers because they ARE rapping. It doesn't matter who wrote it, really. Just bonus point if your company even let's you do that or if you can really write your own raps. A lot of people don't keep in mind how controlling some kpop ents are and thus we'll never know which idols (singing or rapping) are able to do more than just beyond a vocal delivery on a track. And a lot of people forget that literally anyone could maybe write a rap if they wanted to, but not all writers are automatically serious rappers either. I'm just saying. 🤷♀
@@soomi yes I agree. In rapping, a lot of things are considered like flow, word play, delivery, etc not just the pen game ( it's like a term used for writing good rap lyrics)
@@choujimi the art of performance is just as important as the art of creating music and kpop is one of the best examples we have. An example from the main pop culture we have is Lady Gaga. Her music is good but it's not something phenomenal or "new". Her legacy is built on her performance ability and the way she presents herself and her music.
Some of these music shows should bring the live vocals only rule back. I love a vocally clean performance stage, where i can focus on the dance and the charisma of an idol, but I also enjoy hearing properly live vocals. I love knowing my favorite idols can hit those high notes consistently, or how music is rearranged to preserve the singer's voice. I love hearing little lyrical mistakes and when members harmonize. I like being impressed at how well an idol controls their voice while dancing, or watching them improve over time. Removing actual live vocals from music shows was such a mistake. It gave companies an excuse to slack in training vocalists.
I really dont think it's disingenuous to ask someone whose main part of the job entails singing to be able to hold a tune while standing. We're not asking for everyone to be exceptional, just to be able to hold the note while not dancing. It shouldn't be seen as too much to ask. I also really don't understand not considering idols as artists? For me singing is an art form. Dancing is an art form. Performing is an art form. And idols do all three so i don't see why we shouldn't consider them artists. Not condemning any hate but valid criticism is absolutely needed. Who benefits from the criticism? The whole industry should be benefiting from it because we shouldn't be in the wrong for expecting the bare minimum.
kpop is music. kpop is and should be all about just music. the idol standard has declined so much, to the point where as long as you're pretty and can somewhat dance, ur good to go. i don't think there's anything wrong with pointing that out or being upset about it because, at the end of the day, there is no excuse for not being able to sing your own song. i just hope with this uproar, companies will hear the public and put more importance on vocal abilities. i need more groups like nmixx!!!
Long text again (Yes i'm that extra): So Sakura does bring things to LS, and has improved in areas where she been criticitized for in the past. She's a really strong performer, a really good Dancer, her personality is GOLD for variety content, but the thing is: Sakura is a musical artist. I'm not expecting Sakura to be Wendy, Solar, Ningning or Lily, that's unrealistic, but somebody who is the music industry should be able to sing their really Easy parts that they're given. Running away from your problems or hiding behind them, it's not the solution. Yes, criticism isn't always something that we want to hear, but sometimes is necessary if someone wants to improve. Will that happen? Idk, Hybe is known for not training their Idols vocally, or putting a 1/8 of the effort that companies such as SM, Woolim, Starship or Jellyfish. Which leads me to my next point: Idols who recieved criticism and learned from it to improve. Shuhua was dragged until Tomboy era for EVERYTHING. She was called a dozen, a mere visual who was benefited from the others members of (G) Idle hard work, etc, but when Nxde happened and Soojin left, the girl improved in everything was average or straight up Bad at, Yes, Shuhua is still a really weak singer, but at least now, we can hear her sing live more comfortably, her dancing improved TREMENDOUSLY, and her stage presence? Top tier. Another example is Chaeyeon, after she went in SWF, not only she improved, on her dancing and stage presence but due to her hard work, she earned the respect of her fellow competitors that believed that Kpop Main Dancers weren't real dancers. And Last but not least, the members of Ive, i don't know what happened but their abilities to sing live have improved a Lot, especially Leeseo.
for a kpop stan sakura being charismatic and being able to dance well seem like fair trade offs for her vocal ability but for VAST majority of people who listen to kpop for what it is, a music genre, her not being able to sing well is an issue and HYBE should take the criticism and train their idols to sing better
To add to what you are saying there are also dance professionals and variety careers being an idol is being able to be a decent vocalist, dancer, and variety personality
Tbh there's not a whole lot I can say to defend her vocal it is shaky, weak, unstable etc...ik for a FACT no one in that company is giving her vocal lesson but yk improvement is a thing it's not too late for her unless everybody at that company heard her sing and was like yes exactly (also this lowkey reminding me of ive and wonyoung like are y'all grilling her now bc ive improved?)
Please don't say someone is either an artist or a performer. Performing is an art. To answer your question. You're calling a problem "the nature of the industry" but that doesn't mean it's not a problem. Debuting minors or exploiting people is also the "nature" of the industry, and the point of criticism is to incite improvement. We shouldn't accept mediocrity just because we've been conditioned to do so these past years. It's nothing different than shrugging your shoulder and brushing off any other problem because "that's just how the world works."
I agree, performing is an art in its own right. I shouldn’t have made it sound like I was separating the two. Kpop not prioritizing singers is nowhere near the ethical crisis that debuting young idols is. That is quite an outlandish comparison - nobody is going to be taken advantage of or actually hurt by a kpop idol with poor vocal abilities
The point of the comparison wasn't the severity of the problem. It was hardly a comparison at all, the parallel I was drawing is that both are problems that you can call the "nature of the industry" because they are both common practice, and I could list hundreds more that are probably closer to what you're talking about in terms of severity, it's just the first that came to mind. @@choujimi
@@choujimi it doesn’t have to be an ethical issue to be criticized? It’s business. Live performance is a part of an idols job. The fans that consume kpop are allowed to ask them to improve
If kpop is more about charisma and character, why train idols at all? Just hire a bunch of social media influencers and put them in groups. This argument makes no sense. Edit: Criticism isn't hating so I don't get your point that idols shouldn't be criticised.
I feel like constructive critism is good, but straight out hating is not. I feel like idols should be talented (Not necessarily all rounders) but in the end. Vocals, rap and everything you in the song is most important because when you say, "I like Kpop/I listen to Kpop" you're talking about music not the dance. So, you should be able to sing and dance. Charisma and the personality is what companies/idols bring out to us so we can forgive them for lacking vocals and music. Dance is Good to have too btw.
why are kpop idols held to a lower standard than western artists? for example alicias voice crack at the super bowl. we are ALLOWED to expect vocals for people who claim to be ARTISTS
I think there is something to say with the added dance aspect and then the variety culture it’s just not the same as pop I don’t think we can compare the two
I love Le Sserafim but the average level of singing skills in the group is worrying. Chaewon and Yunjin are carrying everyone else on their backs. Kazuha seems to be improving which is good, and I'm sure Eunchae being so young also has much room for improvement. Sakura however... I feel bad for her because she's aware of her limited abilities herself, but I feel like her singing has never been as obvious as now in Le Sserafim. Could this be due to the music genre? When she sang that famous "Yume de kiss me", her singing wasn't amazing but it was alright, not like now. I think i's pointless to send hate but yeah idols should be able to do the bare minimum. (Also I hate when people are like "you try to sing and see if you can do it better!" - like bruh it's not my job).
Most of the hate that Sakura receives is executive, I agree. I don't think that all idols should be the greatest singers or dancers, as that's not what K-pop is really about. It's only partly about the music; the rest is the branding. But still, it's not that Sakura is mediocre, she's incredibly bad. Notably bad, and it does hurt the group performances, especially more vocally heavy ones. She brings a lot to the group, such as variety skills and charisma, but as a performer, she's very lacking. I just wish netizens would actually criticize and not just fuel hate tho
I'm the type of person who really hates when idols or trainees on shows get hyped just because they can show their growth, while in reality all the others who came to the show with talent had way better and worthier growths that just happened to not be on a tv show.. A trainee goes from untalented to average and people are on their knees while the talented ones get completely overlooked.. So I understand where people are coming from criticizing/hating on low skills idols who become very popular, it makes the gap between the talent and the popularity too big and obvious. The criticism and hate are always sharper when the idols are in their peak, people just can't stand it. And I bet that some of those same people would be leaving encouraging words to an unpopular idol with similar skills, just because they're not famous which makes them exempt from deserving hate and criticism. In the end Sakura is not near the worst singer in kpop, and she does a great job at giving her voice a signature "sakura" sound, but I noticed that a lot of the hate towards her is driven by jealousy, and a feeling of unfairness. Which again I understand but really Sakura does a great job in her group and despite knowing her limits she fought and worked so hard to be where she is now.
Yes! Sohee in Produce101 and Hyewon in Produce48 taking up places that could be taken by more skilled trainees enraged me (i know it was rigged anyway but still)
I enjoy your channel and I appreciate your point of view, but this is honestly a cop out. Here’s why I say that: 1)This is Sakura’s third idol group. She made the choice to join each one, including le sserafim. She didn’t have to join after Iz*one disbanded and graduating from HKT48, and could have taken her established popularity into other parts of entertainment that didn’t require singing into a microphone. She’s an excellent entertainer with intelligence, quick wit, comedic timing, and conventional beauty on her side. She did *not* have to be in le sserafim. 2)Hybe as a parent company doesn’t focus on having the perfect idol from the start, but gives idols under each sub-label open access to vast resources. This is a benefit that I actually appreciate about Hybe as allows artists to have more freedom to grow, but it also allows artists to grow stagnant. I wouldn’t go so far as to call Sakura lazy, but walking into the building of the biggest k-pop entertainment company with the resources being offered to her to improve her vocal ability and saying “give me less lines please” makes that a poor defense of her lack of vocal ability. 3)The western expansion of k-pop continues and those audiences have a different set of expectations for live performers. Live vocals are more important than being entertained, and they won’t lower the bar just because it’s the norm in le sserafim’s country of origin. Sakura is in a group that is expanding their musical offerings to the west, looking for success in the biggest music market in the world that just happens to be there. Western fans expect for mics to be on and for the vocals to at least be above average. Fun choreography and beautiful faces isn’t enough of a distraction to get away from the vocals. Even with her fewer lines, Sakura should be preparing to meet the demands of a music market her team wants to succeed. It’s expensive to promote in another market. K-pop idols are already at a disadvantage because, despite the English releases, they’re still foreign. Why disadvantage themselves further? 4)I agree that a lot of the criticism of Sakura is unproductive, but that’s unfortunately the nature of being in the public eye- your worst moments *will* be picked apart like vultures to roadkill. Most of their favorite idols are on the same level of Sakura’s abilities, but they won’t be honest about that. And, to be fair, even Yunjin, who we know is a talented singer, didn’t sound great up there. Kazuha and Eunchae didn’t sound great, and Chaewon was the only one who sounded decent. I can recognize that, potentially, maybe 4/5 of them were not giving any energy into an encore stage vocal performance, but, excluding Yunjin, maybe there were. As a public figure whose role is a singer in a group that makes music none of them are above criticism, constructive or not. If they are not doing well at their job, especially if they want to financially or socially benefit from it, people are going to point it out. Sure, singers have off days and should absolutely be given grace for that. But if the majority of an idol’s days when they’re actually singing live are off days, then why should fans or potential fans look away? You might be okay with lowering the bar for k-pop idols, but the rest of the world doesn’t have to and likely won’t. K-pop idols should want to be better and stans should want more from people they spend their time, energy, and money supporting. While k-pop is multifaceted, it is still Korean Popular Music, and that cannot be excluded for the sake of protecting an idol from criticism about their vocal contribution to their group’s music.
In defense of Sakura, she specifically said she wanted to debut in LSF to take on new challenges. She said there was a point where she just wanted to ask for fewer lines but that is not something she wanted to run away from. Also, vocal lessons will only go so far with terrible vocal direction. The girls did much better on other encores (check the one they did at Inkigayo) but the heavily processed flat talk-singing would not sound the most pleasant live.
@@mimil5338my mentioning of her getting less lines is in response to what choujimi stated in the video. I believe in Sakura. I want to see her grow more confident as a singer, but beyond the encore stage I’m not hearing it. Vocal direction had nothing to do with the encore stage she’s being criticized for, unless you’re meaning this a different way. She should be learning how to healthily sing FIRST. That’s her instrument and lessons provide the foundation on using it. She doesn’t have to become a Beyoncé level vocalist, but being a competent singer will allow her to more effectively, and confidently, follow/interpret vocal direction.
Sakura isn’t the only one who got criticism bcoz all were bad & off tune, but she became the target cause of her being seniors in industry were singing is required but in her defence, she actually work so so hard & improve in dance, stage presence, it’s hybe problem also her voice is shaky even when she speaks also her won’t gonna change, i feel like if out of 5 atleast 3/4 were stable then it won’t have notice-but only 2 are carrying the vocal & also they aren’t the strongest when comes their own type of song cause people think Yujin is professional opera singer which isn’t fully true but she good in opera & lsf doesn’t sing opera also chaewon is good but not best vocalist to cover other 3 non vocalist were Sakura, eunchae & kazuha are tone deaf they might sing some part well but they are tone deaf 😅
I completely agree with everything you said in this video. Because of the these people's expectations, it is completely fair to criticize them as long as it is helpful to them in some way. However, there is a completely different aspect to all of this. These people are human. While it is important for these artists to strive for their best and improve, it is equally as important to recognize their emotions. As you said, it's not like Sakura is weighing down Le Sserafim and she is clearly putting in her respective effort. She already recognizes that she may lack in vocal skills but she is doing the best she can with everything she has. She does not need to hear that anymore. Yes, being an idol is a profession, and yes, there are high expectations. But these expectations should not come at the expense of an idol's mental well-being and neither should it in any profession. This is the exact reason why the idol industry is perceived as it is. It is completely toxic. There needs to be a shift in mindset within the fan community. Constructive criticism is one thing, but outright attacks and harassment are completely unacceptable. The fans must remember that idols are not robots and at the end of the day, they're human beings with limitations and vulnerabilities.
Honestly I understand criticizing, but a lot of the « critics » Lesserafim have been getting does NOT come from good intentions and is very obviously hate badly disguised as « criticism ». Idols should, in my opinion, at least have the ability to sing without sounding bad everytime they do It live. But Sakura’s issue seems to be related to hybe’s training system. The company just doesnt train their idols to be good vocalists, except maybe pledis. Instead of laughing at a girl who seems about to cry bcs she knows her singing is subpar maybe we should question Why hybe, one of the biggest kpop companies, can’t seem to hire vocal trainers who will teach their idols a healthy way of singing.
theres a reason why the best of yg singers all got training outside the company rather than their in house trainers. at some point, you really gotta sing your own parts well enough. dont think she deserved a dog piling since people just hate to hate, but singing live is part of the job. no ones expecting vocal runs or belts from idols especially those under hybe or outside of sm in general (where people expect the main singers to actually sing more than just average). shes an amazing performer, top 3 in lesserafim in my opinion i lover her fancams so much, but she deserves to go get real training for her voice and hope she can gain confidence to sing on them encore stages.
Idol must at least have a good live vocal, that's the standard, let me ask you, what award they receive ? It's music awards, not idol awards or dancing awards or visual awards.
idk, i don’t think we should hate idols, but i do enjoy a good singer. i guess dancing isn’t that important to me when it comes to a good song. and i think idols that ARE weak in singing should 100% try to improve. that’s what makes a song more enjoyable, good voices! but like you said, not every idol is going to fit those standards and it is already crazy how they can do what they do.
I love Sakura as a person and idol generally, i agree that she is entertaining and charismatic, but K-Pop *is* a music industry, so obviously it’s expected for idols to showcase talent, and perpetually, not just once in a while. Asking for less lines will do absolutely no good in the long run, only slow or halt her vocal progress. She can’t improve her skills if she doesn’t use them. And the argument that she shouldn’t have to improve because the industry isn’t always focused on talent is an odd point to make. If an idol is already underwhelming as anything (a vocalist, dancer, performer, whatever), they shouldn’t be expected to stay stagnant just because the industry allows it - it feels disingenuous somehow, especially if the idol has had this role for over a decade. Criticism is important in an industry like this, as long as it’s constructive. Obviously, not all of it will be, there will always be losers on the internet who bully and hate on idols for no reason. However, constructive criticism can be such a useful thing for anyone in the music sector, so brushing it off as jabs to someone’s talent isn’t always the solution. But i do understand that the bullying disguised as this often saturates the actual, let’s say, guidance. Yes, she is ‘pulling her weight’, but the bare minimum is the bare minimum for a reason. Her company could do so much more for her, rather than making her stay at the same stage for so long.
Personally I think I just dislike how many k-pop idols seem scared to sing due to the expectation of ‘perfect vocals’. I’d personally prefer imperfect live singing with a quiet backing track over the overuse of loud backing tracks/ prerecorded vocals (which perpetuate the expectations of perfection). And I do think that kpop isn’t mostly about vocals but given they’re still singers I’d like to hear their real voices sometimes.
(I say this as a fearnot) it's not as if Le Sserafim aren't clearly putting effort into their music, concepts, etc. because I think everyone can recognize they do, but I feel like they have to redistribute their time and efforts to bolster their actual skills. Why do they always talk about their grueling physical training, but they never really talk about vocal training? I don't think the members are untalented. I think they need help- if only to reduce their clear anxiety during encore stages. It's not good to genuinely wish they don't win just to avoid backlash. It shouldn't come to the point where the fans have to bear the burden of justifying these mistakes.
I think sakura's talent is variety. This was a real position when Tv had a way more important role in idols career. Snsd taeyon got heavily critisis back then because she lacked variety skill and looked bored during tvshow. In Japan many idole make their entire career around variety. People like to point out that sakura been singing in a group for 12 years but she never had singing class. AKB48 were 56 member + HKT48 were 35 + NMB48 were 22 + SKE48 were 37 . That around 150 member that were under the management of the 48 groups. let's add that sakura was part of both AKB and HKT her schedul was so full. In japan they don't care about singing. There very fiew member who are know to sing well in akb it was never something fan were asking for. LEt's add the international group, from china/ tailand and the sister group like NGT48 and STU48 IT 300 member Yet sakura stand out and gathered so much fan that the moment she reached 16 teen she enter the top 10 most popular member and never left and enter the top 3. She made her name by her variety skill and fan service. Her evolution is really impressive. She could have gone back to japan and start a new career or become AKB48's face but no she choose to do it all again, from the start and challendge all her skill set. Sakura is a bad singer but damn she work hard.
Being a kpop idols is more than talent, but singing and rapping (depending on the position) have to be a basic requirement. Not everyone have to be able to delivery crazy flow of rap or incredible high notes, but just have to have basic to deliver your lines successfully.
@@sliverhalo9286 no I mean, if you are a rapper you should be able to deliver your verse successfully and if your position is vocal just sound normal during the live stage. Not every member has to be a vocal powerhouse or fastest rapper ever depending on the position but has to be able to bring the minimum to the table. I didn't mean there has to be a rapper in the group. It is totally ok.
@@nonamenosurname6127 yes yes but rappers have to be able to deliver some vocal lines they don’t have to be main vocals they just have to be able to deliver a steady vocal
the thing is, if they are going to focus on the "untrainable" aspects of being an idol to select trainees or to select a debut lineup, this is fine. but they NEED to then train them to do the "trainable" things. sakura has literally not been trained to sing. even a half competent voice teacher should be able to get her to sing her parts without straining. it's very achieveable. but they don't do this. fans constantly defend companies for choosing the pretty one or the charismatic one or the stan attractor and so on but there is no reason y'all need to defend them for never training any of these people. and frankly if you don't care about the fact that sakura literally can't even sing her own parts in her own songs while standing completely still, you're simply not someone who cares about music. and that's fine. but kpop is still a music industry. if you're only looking for pretty women, be a fan of a model. some of us actually care about the music, since they are music artists who sell albums. they hold concerts. they perform at coachella. if sakura can't sing she doesn't deserve to be a music artist. she can have another career where singing is not part of the requirements. also like, when a job requires you to do multiple different things you are expected to be able to do all of them competently. no one goes around telling nurses it's ok that they don't know how to administer an injection because they are also supposed to be able to take health histories. sakura is an idol. the job is to sing and dance and be a charismatic performer. she can't sing. you don't need to defend her.
if she cant even be able to sing while standing still on an encore, then she deserves thr criticism. and this would've been somewhat justifiable from someone who is new to the industry like eunchae & kazuha, but sakura has over 10 years a musical idol. she can't even dance, admitted by herself, so you cant say she should at least go into being background dancer. if she wants to just be entertaining on screen then she should go back to being a streamer & youtuber, she was very good at that!! otherwise how are people be expected to stream songs for someone who cant even sing. it's unfair for her to even get credits for a song when everyone else is doing the hard work. kpop IS about the music, if you're not into the music your stay in the scene wont last, whether you're an artist in it or a fan. that being said a huge part of the problem here is clearly hybe/source music. how is it that a classically trained singer like yunjin struggled while standing still?? she & chaewon were the only capable singers in that group but it's clear even they aren't getting the proper lessons to upkeep their vocals. if they have the money to hire in-house doctors then the have the money for good vocal coaches, or at least decent ones.
In the industry these days, there is just less focus and importance placed on singing and training vocals. In previous generations, there were specific positions for people "specialising" in vocals/dance/rap but it feels like they don't mind everyone being average in vocals as long as they have visuals and can dance. People were saying Le Sserafim aren't a vocally-focused group, which is fine since their songs aren't that vocally challenging and they're great performers but I think at the very least, they should be able to perform those songs live when they're standing still and not doing any choreo.
I really like Sakura but you are talking bunch of nonsense my dude. Idol's job is performing on stage. They are training daily to handle stage performances. In every other field if you are not able to do a task that you are trained to do you get fired so why are we supposed to ignore this in this particular case. You said it yourself, she was not chosen because of her talent nor the ability to perform even during the survival show, she was chosen simply because of her popularity. I don't hate any idols but let's be real this is their job and Sakura in particular has been an idol for almost 12 years soon. She has had way more time to develop enough to perform on stage and sing, other idols don't have even 1/5th of that time, let's not be delusional and say as it is. You can't defend someone that had 12 years to learn how to sing and is still unable to sing literally 2 lines in a song. If you think that ability to sing a song is not a necessity in an idol then I have no words. This is a music industry, the least you should do is to go on stage and sing and if you can't do that then what in the world are you even doing there. If idols don't need the skills then why don't we simply have all the tiktokers as idols instead, bruv like what are you even japping about.
Honestly idc at this point im saying it, its HYBE's fault, Sakura sang SO BEAUTIFULLY in AKB48, Yumede Kiss Me live sounds so ANGELICAL its ASTONISHING knowing how she sings now, even on IZ*ONE her lines were beyond small yes but THE DELIVERY OF THE LINES? Iconic, many iconic lines in the comebacks were from Sakura its actually surprising WHAT HAPPENED, ON LE SSERAFIM?!, WHERE DID HER VOICE WENT? HYBE, that's the answer, literally i swear to god, HYBE's neglected on her vocal training made her regress horribly and ruin if not damage her vocal cords, making her loose the ability to even be stable, im praying and hoping she is genuenly DOING her best to get better at singing, even with the neglect HYBE's is all at fault here, only 2/5 are great vocally and even Chaewon, THE LEAD VOCALIST ON IZ*ONE, REGRESSED, WHAT, THE HELL?, SHE GOT WORSE AT SINGING FOR WHAT REASON? IT MAKES NO SENSE Dude even ENHYPEN, what, the fck, they could sing on the beggining, now most of them are standing on the bare line of beign stable, WHAT, IS HAPPENING ON HYBE?
Who benefits from the criticism? Sakura, of course. Since I just came back from a Camryn Suzanne video so I’ll use Dua Lipa as an example of criticism helping the artist. She wasn’t criticised for putting in no effort, because people could see that Dua was a capable vocalist and she was putting in effort in demonstrating decent vocal technique, but she wasn’t putting effort in dancing and stage presence, so fans and non-fans alike criticised her for that. She took in that criticism and made an effort to improve her dancing skills, her stage presence and even stage production and when she came back with her next album, that improvement showed, fans and non-fans alike were more receptive to her. And most of all, she seemed happier being on stage knowing that fans were receiving her efforts warmly. So in the end, the criticism does benefit the artist, because the artist will be more warmly received. On the count of kpop idols and vocals, it may seem a bit unfair to use them as an example, but Seungmin, I.N and Lee Lnow take vocal lessons outside of JYPE. I’m assuming they’ve heard the criticisms of their previously subpar vocal technique, and decided to look for lessons outside the company seeing as their fans weren’t receptive to the way JYPE handles vocal technique. The improvement showed, and fans and non-fans alike were receptive to their efforts, and they seem happier with the warm reception to their effort. But most importantly, learning proper vocal technique can help with career longevity. Suppose Sakura wanted to pursue a solo career, or even perform just a solo song outside of Le Sserafim. Because she is not in a group, her lack of vocal skills is not as hidden. With Le Sserafim, her lack of vocal skills could be hidden behind Yunjin’s good technique. In a solo, her lack of vocal technique would be highlighted even further than it is in the group. And although she is a good performer in a group, probably because again, performing in a group shields some weaknesses because we cannot focus on just one person unless we’re actively making an effort to, once she goes solo, the weaknesses will be highlighted further. Because both her weaknesses in stage presence and vocals would be highlighted, her solo career would tank, sorry to say. She must either be exceptional when it comes to stage presence to shield her bad vocals, or must level up her vocal technique to at least subpar so that it is even (equa) to her subpar levels of stage presence. You cannot train exceptional stage presence into you, you either got it or you don’t, but you can train your vocals to a subpar level.
I think that the encores are after they performed "Easy" and stages. Look at their choreo it's INTENSE. This is why I think they should atleast train for encores where they sing immediately after performing, I believe I-LAND did this with their contestants if I'm not mistaken.
From what I’ve heard Jungkook from BTS actually went outside and hired his own vocal trainer. That’s why he sounds so good. Why can’t the company provide that for them?
I dont think we should defend idols for singing like that. We can criticize and accept the fact that she is not the best at vocals. I am not saying should be sounding exactly like studio vocals. But at least sounding okay? Not messy? And just like Xiumin from exo said that singing talent matters more than dancing. If we think about it, we can easily learn kpop choreos if we try hard enough..but singing is not that easy comparatively. I am not someone who is obsessed with live vocals, i appreciate idols who are able to carry live singing. But when the idol isn't able to carry their parts properly, it does give me an ick. this is not the first time she is criticized. But bullying idols for having bad vocals performances is not going to help. They will only feel traumatized to the point, that they couldn't sing live anymore due to the fear of voice cracks. Sakura does need vocal lessons to at least carry her lines properly. And we as fans should let them learn from their mistakes instead of bullying them.
Sakura just doesn't have the vocal cords for standard singing. Her voice is best suited for AKB style of singing, which is why she sounds better on those type of songs. But, the thing is, people take examples from _that_ and think that it's everyone's fault that Sakura isn't improving. They go, "look how good she sings in HKT!" or "It's because of the language difference," etc, etc, etc. But no, it's just Sakura. I don't care how hard she works and all that. Saying that is just an attempt to stray off-subject and deflect in order to get people to compliment her on something. You can get her the world's greatest vocal trainer and it's really just a waste of time. The only real thing you can MAYBE, somewhat correct is the shakiness in her voice. But, the _vocal tone,_ which makes her sound bad on songs, can't be fixed. Because that's the voice she was born with. But, at the same time, _personally,_ I feel that she doesn't put in the effort as much either. It seems like she put more effort in honing her crocheting skills than actually trying to improve her vocals. Her crochet skills have exponentially improved in a very short time. But, there's zero improvement in her vocals for the past 2 years, since debut. And, that's disappointing for fans that hope for SOME noticeable vocal improvement in every comeback. Even if you look at her Korean skills. Yes, I will say that her vocabulary range is starting to get better after moving in with Eunchae. *BUT,* her _pronunciation_ has stayed exactly the same since IZONE. I mean, she said on Weverse Live, that she does pronunciation practice every single day for a hour. Even on 'Fearless Kkura', she said that she _really_ wanted to improve her pronunciation. But, no noticeable improvement on that either.
Gonna be honest this just reads like a mean spirited comment to me... I know you're trying to justify why she doesn't seem hard working to you, but I feel like that criticism of her pronunciation when she's literally a foreigner was honestly unneeded in a conversation about her vocal skills. And god forbid she have hobbies (knitting/crocheting) outside of what she does for work (singing and dancing). And it's evidence that she's not working hard enough to you? I would think that her making clothes for her stages IS evidence that she's working hard, and even trying to compensate for what she may lack in certain areas as an idol by bringing other things to lsrfm. edit: and if you think that having a vocal trainer isn't enough to improve her voice, then isn't something like making clothes exactly what she would need to do to prove herself? Furthermore, to say that it's her "tone" that makes her "sound bad" in songs doesn't even make sense to me. What people are criticizing about is that her voice is unstable or off-key on stage with no backtrack, not that they think her vocals on studio versions of their songs are bad. So that also just feels immensely mean spirited to me. I don't expect you to change your opinion or redact your comment or whatever but I feel it bears mentioning.
@@finleyy You only take it as "mean spirited" because you want sugar coated criticism. I'm simply more straightforward. And being a foreigner doesn't mean anything. Kazuha is also a foreigner and has been in Korea for barely 2 years. And yet, her pronunciation and proficiency is already far better than Sakura, who's been in Korea for 6 years now. That's disappointing to see when Sakura says she practices every day for an hour. Only conclusion I can come up with is, she's not putting in the effort to properly learn the language. Kazuha said one of her goals is to master the Korean language and she's showing clear results. Sakura said, almost exactly one year ago on 'Fearless Kkura' DJ episode, that she REALLY wants to improve on pronunciation. But, no improvement, whatsoever. That's just the reality of it. I'm not hating on her. And what does making clothes have to do with anything to prove herself? That makes no sense. That only "proves" that she's putting more effort into crocheting over something that matters more. And what doesn't make sense about vocal tone? It's one aspect of her voice. Her voice stands out in a bad way and sounds out of place, because of the way it sounds. And as I've mentioned, Sakura's type of voice fits best with AKB style of music. She sounds much better on those songs and doesn't sound out of place as she does on LSF songs.
One thing I've noticed is that although Hybe right now has some of the most talented people in their groups, the vocal abilities of the idols is questioned a lot, which makes you wonder, why doesn't the main agency make time for them to recieve actual vocals lessons of they can plan so much concerts and tours and performances. Like, if it's earning money, it's fine to overwork the idol but not for improving their talent (which does not give immediate gratification) ?
Sakura has been in the industry for 13 years, and has only been a part of hybe for barely half of it. If anyone needs to receive the criticism it’s Sakura. People tend to baby kpop idols and find every way to protect them when their singing skills come into question. I don’t care what the kpop industry likes to go after, the everyday person is the one listening to the songs, & watching the performances. And she wanted to join an idol group with subpar vocals that haven’t improved much, why should people hold back on giving constructive criticism (not excusing hate).
I think people are free to criticize an idol's vocals if that is something that is important to them. I like more performance-oriented groups but I'd still want the idols to be able to sing their own lines. The criticism I have seen for Sakura, though some of it is genuine, most of it is not done with good intentions. Sakura has been an idol since she was 13. She is almost 26. When people say she shouldn't have been an idol I don't think they realize that is her whole life. And I don't think it's as simple as taking a vocal lesson. Vocal lessons have to be regular and consistent. Sakura and Chaewon mentioned recently that they haven't gotten a break since debut. The girls did mention having vocal lessons from the company but we all question how effective these lessons are. Even if they were, the need to be a match to what the girls are expected to do in their own songs. TWICE Jihyo talked about how she struggled in the beginning of their career because she was trained to sing American pop songs but then had to sing in a cutesy tone to match the group's cute concept. Easy in particular have terrible vocal direction; they have to talk-sing in this incredibly flat tone and I wasn't expecting to sound good live even before that encore. We know Yunjin and Chaewon are pretty good singers but even they weren't sounding great.
You make pretty much the point which I have been thinking about in the wake of this. It's interesting that the narrative of "this group can't sing" is the mainstream one, when as far as I can tell LS is one of the few out there actually making an effort to promote their releases with live singing. I could be wrong, but those Vevo performances they released certainly sound live to me. I'm not claiming LS are the best singers out there, but honestly I can appreciate the effort and improvement. Of course, I enjoy it when an idol can sing, and it makes me respect their skills, especially if they get to show off that skill. It's a shame that even groups who have proven their vocal abilities, like most SM groups, don't really get to have a ton of opportunities to have actual live performances anymore. Even SM town concerts are a mix of live and lipsync, mostly the latter. Does the idols' vocal ability matter anymore if we never get to enjoy it? Edit: thought about this a little more and want to make the counterpoint to my own comment that going against the grain and investing time and effort into more training could have great returns. Hearing or seeing genuine improvement in an idol's skillset is not only a show of commitment or improved skill, but also has the potential to make the idol even more popular. And I'd argue that such popularity would be on a healthier base than before.
Lsf vevo performances are edited. It’s fine, every kpop group has their vocals edited in official content. When it comes to the newer gen, there’s nmixx, itzy, stray kids, txt ateez, stayc, maybe g idle who are more consistent in live performances.
I just don’t like lesserafim response to it. Hiding being the recorders and then singing an encore with a prerecorded track. Obviously they work hard on their looks and dancing - why not focus on vocals. Momo from twice figured it out
I see no excuse for someone to have zero ability in the trainable skills OF THEIR JOB Also this issue is bigger than just Sakura. Imho, the root of the issue is the consumers. Companies have zero reason to invest in skill if the fans not only don't care abt it, but also defend the absensce of skill when there's criticism. Also as someone who learned to aing from having literally zero ability. The very basics of singing r not hard to acquire. And the basics r below the bare minimum in terms of standards for most people who care abt singing. Imo, idols need to at least have basic singing, dancing and performing abilites. None of those r a big task to achieve, especially for a dedicated individual. Idols like Sakura getting a pass r just a massive slap in the face to all the trainees that were sold the lie that being an idol has anything to do with skill or talent. So much time and money wasted. So much unnecessary stress. I personally find the overall skill level of gen4 idols to be genuinely disgraceful. Imo, jumping at individual idols is useless as hell, and most of my rage goes out to fans who just blindly support and DEFEND mediocrity (you are not included in this category tho. You actually do put in proper tought before taking a stance and I fully respect that).
I see your points, and I agree with most of them, but I’d also argue that kpop not being an industry “that has anything to do with skill or talent” is why we’re having this conversation in the first place - It’s observable that kpop companies do not have much of a preference to talent and skill, so much as it prefers individuals who can sell a product the best in the end. I’m not saying I agree with this, and I can see how demoralizing it can be for singers and performers, but I think in the end, music is just a convenient medium for the idol industry at large - idols are the primary product in this whole process Yunjin finishing 26th on Produce 48, as well as produce’s entire rigging scandal, shows very plainly that kpop is not an industry that aims to showcase raw talent. Produce is just one example, but we see this in every kpop company that has shown behind the scenes of group formation processes
I blame hybe. Sakura getting hate is sad because its been years that she's getting hate. Hybe doesn't care quality is the problem. They don't care enough to give us quality idols or help them improve. They need to atleast have their idols be decent in terms of skills. Sakura isn't the only idols tho and not the only one in the group. Kazuha and eunchae aren't doing any better. Alot of idols clearing need to improve. Some do slowly some doesn't. But the problem i have with kura is the fact that she clearing cares to the point that she asked for less line. And that's where hybe should have gotten her vocal training. She seems to want to improve. Criticism should be directed to the company not her. She never got that vocal training and in iz"one there were 12 members and hyewon had all the criticism on her. I hope sakura doesn't let it affect her. And i hope she knows she does contribute to the group. And vocals are her only lack.
aint nothing wrong if an idol’s vocals are barely average but i need them to at least hold a note consistently and if they can’t, stop giving them lines! just let them preform! im tired of seeing people make up excuses for idols who have been in the industry for years and cant sing to save their life. if an idol cant even sing while standing still, whats the point? im saying this as a twice fan btw, half of the ladies there are barely average singers. so im not hating any group in particular, but i believe our standards should be higher vocal wise. idol dance skils and their choreos have high expectations, why aren’t we allowed to expect the same for vocals?
Agree. It’s mostly about the total idol package. The hate towards idols who underperform on one particular aspect of the job is almost becoming a cliche: hate being whipped up because that’s what stans or antis should be doing. The amount of truly artistic allrounders has never been high. Pop is not supposed to be art anyway.
I agree with your point BUT kpop is still a music genre at the end of the day? And nobody wants to hear terrible singing. I think it should be first and foremost about vocal training in kpop
I would say that idol work is more similar to what "Geisha" used to be like. It's very different than singers, kpop companies use music as one of the means to make money from fans, but they are willing to do anything, which means an idol's job is essentially to please fans no matter what. .
I totally agree. People are complaining because they personally don't like that Sakura is successful without appealing to what they look for in an idol. And then they're showing that they're willing to bully her out of the industry to uphold their sacred "standards". They can obscure that fact by deflecting attention towards Hybe, but at the end of the day any talk of upholding standards necessitates running people out of the industry using negativity should they fail to meet them. It's ridiculous how people are doing this so soon after there was a huge outpouring of support for Lia. It's like we can only see idols as human after their struggles are exposed and undeniable. It sucks that it comes to that.
i think people being straight up disrespectful are definitely wrong, but criticism has its place. as much as i’m sure sakura is trying, and asking for less lines, it’s still disappointing seeing how little skill she has in both singing AND dancing. she is the weakest dancer in the group. thats not to say she’s bringing them down or anything but she is extremely average. her singing is her main downfall. it’s not that she can’t sing and dance at the same time, it’s that she can’t sing in the first place. she’s tone deaf, shaky and her vocal tone is not enjoyable. this is not to say she can’t be trained to sing better i do believe she has the potential to be a lot better, it’s just that she’s not. and for someone who’s been in the industry as long as her it’s not unreasonable to expect her to improve. i don’t want to say she has pretty privilege because that would be discounting her charm and variety skill, but she also does not rap so all she’s really bringing to the table is personality. if groups still had positions like in 3rd gen she would not be placed as main or lead in any categories. at best she would be a sub vocalist but even then that doesn’t feel correct. i love sakura as a person and as a celebrity, but as an idol she has a long way to go
I get what you are saying about the industry not being about talent and hasn't been for a long time, but people will be people. Most people who get into K-pop love talking about two things "their favs music" and "how talented/skilled their favs are." When people see someone radiating confidence and passion on stage, they will talk about thag person in a good way, and some may even be critical and point out how they can be better. However, this also is the same for the opposite. If someone is radiating hesitation, a lack of self-confidence, or doubt on stage, people will point that out and critize it, and some even will send hate to them because they can. This is the internet there is no holding back when it comes to commenting because we are anonymous, and most people will usually say the first things that pop into their head. There are plenty of people who want to see Sakura improve her vocal abilities since they know she is a hard worker and has improved so much from her time. Produce 48 all the way to Lesserafim. So most of her fans do know she is a good performer, but most K-pop stans and causal listeners will always expect more and will always want more from idols and want to see them improve in all aspects. Since, Kpop markets itself as having idols who can sing, dance, and perform all at the same time. I usually see most people harshly criticize her and send hate comments to her because of her vocals, which are never warranted. However, I also do see a few respectful criticism comments about her vocals and hoping she improves. Again, why do people comment? Well, because they want their feelings to be heard and what better place to do that than the internet.
Wasnt there this older idols in an interview who said in a girlgroup its more important to be able to hide the areas where you lack instead of being the best at singing or something like that? This is what I thought of when I saw this. People said that was nonesense but it is true
I'm Sakura fan since HKT48, and she should be improve in vocals for her own sake, there is no excuses, 13 years in this and the actual Sakura is only focused on knitting hobby and buy Louis Vuitton stuff, and not counting the facial surgeries she had made (if you are a real Sakura fan you are realizing of that, like or not), for an idol jumping from Jpop idol to Kpop industry she could at least improve vocals NOW, on Hybe, even Kazuha can stand a simple note on EASY and is not a difficult vocal song, I'm also a pianista and believe me, EASY is EASY vocals, not excuses: Sakura needs to take vocal lessons, is her job, not knitting, and I remark: I'm a Sakura fan.
Im ngl, a lot of fearnots are coddling her . I am tired of the excuses that they make for her but not her ever going difficulty with live vocals. Its annoying seeing people speak for her and say “oh this and that is why she doesnt sound good” or “she sounds fine” which isnt objectively true. People have the right to criticize a performer whos role is to not only give a good stage performance with dancing, but also singing if their roles dont call for rapping. I genuinely hope hybe gets better vocal teachers cuz sumthinf isnt adding up. This is not to say that sakura is a bad idol because she is NOT. Sakura has continuously been an amazing performer but singing isnt her strength and thats okay to admit. That doesnt mean we should settle for mediocrity and we should use more encouraging, positive feedback so she can improve because i really think she can improve.
I think at the end of the day it’s HYBE that needs to hear it the most, but I just wonder what Sakura actually makes of this criticism and what she wants to do about it. I think about stories I’ve heard about artists like Taemin, who took all the criticism he got for bad vocals and used it as fuel to prove that he is capable of improvement. But SM, for all their faults, at least knows how to train a vocalist. For all we know, she has asked HYBE for more training and since they won’t take it seriously, she asks for less lines. I do see where you’re coming from. You’re meeting Sakura and the industry where they are at right now and recognizing what she brings to the table outside of vocal ability. I think the sentiment I agree most with in the comments is the hope that this type of criticism will force companies to realize that we actually do care about vocal talent and ability just as much as the rest of it. The physical and visual aspects of the genre have clearly come so far, but I’m tired of seeing groups struggle through choreo that only a trained broadway professional could perform well, with little to none of the training required to be able to do so.
As a fearnots and Sakura biased, the one who disappoints me the most is HYBE and Source Music. The girls have talent and definitely CAN get better. All of them have potential to grow in a vocal sense. Bc as a fan I've seen how they improved in dancing and performing. The 5 girls are hard working people, but if their own company doesn't give them the push and the help to get better at singing what can they do. I love Sakura and I have been a fan of hers since produce 48, over the years she lost her confidence in singing, and it's all bc of kpop fans constante hate and bullying. So the problem here is the company and the people bullying them non stop. I know my girls can get better, they just don't have the correct support sistem.
I think it's valid to criticize talent or lack thereof in kpop. Clearly the industry has shifted to a more visual heavy one. Other groups who aren't vocal powerhouses make up for it in live performances, and that works out well. While others still aren't great performers but their vocals make up for it. Overall music is supposed to be a listening experience. We buy and stream to listen to them, not to hear the squeaking or clacking of their shoes. Then you have the small but new wave of western girl groups and boy groups and the difference is stark. Take Flo for example, man those girls can absolutely SING and have such a lovely stage presence. If you want to cater to a western audience, then you must have talent to make it. I think the main reason why kpop hasn't broken that barrier is because the groups being pushed to the west are quite frankly not good at singing, and fans know this. This is why they call them out publicly because the fans don't want to be embarrassed.
I understand people don't have malicious intent, but regardless of how constructive they're being I feel like they don't understand they are still making said idol a target. If people want to send a message to the company in hopes of improving the training system, I don't think targeting Sakura or any other idol will be productive at all. I think this topic requires understanding the nuances of what makes someone an idol, bc I feel like these days alot of people seem to give the word and the job 'idol' additional weight to it that it didn't always have. The meaning of it gets a bit lost and suddenly everyone has their own requirements for what an idol's capabilities should be. I think you're bringing in a very healthy perspective on this. People make it seem like this has an easy solution when in reality there's multiple factors they don't seem to consider.
So according to you, there should be no criticisms at all in k-pop since the industry doesn't focus on talent & skills? Then by that logic, are we allowed to criticize idols' visuals since the industry clearly focuses on that? Yeah you are a scorned Sakura & lsf fan even though you're refusing to admit it.
At several points throughout the video, I emphasized how I don’t condemn anybody for being critical of idols’ talents or for not appreciating a group for a lack of ability. I think it’s completely understandable to hold critical opinions about performance in kpop, as that is a large component to the overall product I even said that I would *completely* understand criticism in certain situations, such as idols who give no energy to their performances, so I’m not sure why you’ve come to this conclusion? I could equally accuse you of being an over zealous Sakura or Le Sserafim hater - this is not an effective way to have a discussion
@@choujimi bro why you so sensitive? What in my comment indicates I'm a hater? I didn't make & post a whole video ranting to people to go criticize lsf? I just asked you a simple question. If the industry doesn't care about "skills" so there's no point of criticising that, then would it be ethical to criticize idols' visuals since outer beauty is such a big deal there? But I guess fanboys don't use much logic as long as there favs are not getting dragged.
@@ABIGAIListhis95 I didn’t mean to come off as sensitive, I just didn’t agree with how you represented me in your argument I didn’t say idols should never be criticized for talent, yet that is what you claim I said as the basis for your argument. Am I not allowed to push back on that? 😭
If you know Sakura you know she can’t sing, Sakura is just never going to be a vocalist the end of the day. Even her speaking voice has trembling in it. And the problem with that is why would you put someone with that little to no vocal ability in a singing group? I mean they make music with their voice right? Not with their dancing skills or performance skills or am I wrong? You are recording music with you’re voice and put that out to have people enjoy you’re songs so I’m not really seeing you’re point here… criticism is definitely necessary but hate is not, you see constructive criticism is always welcome especially when you’re in the music industry. It helps you get better and see you’re flaws however idols aren’t perfect obviously but I don’t think fans or listeners are asking much? Isn’t it the whole point of being a singer that you can sing? You don’t have to sound like Mariah Carey or anything but just singing something without cracking or trembling you’re voice isn’t much to ask for… This kinda applies to Kazuha and eunchae too but with them it’s not as bad as it is with Sakura. However since Sakura is popular and liked she definitely brings viewers and money to the table so is she needed? Yes. Would that be the case if she wasn’t popular? Absolutely not. Sakura has made a name for herself and has a likeable personality that’s what she brings to the group and that’s okay if you’re not a listener. LOLLL I WROTE ALOOOTTR (this isn’t meant to be hateful or spark hate against her but just my stand on it. I don’t necessarily stan lesserafim but I have a liking towards them and I’m a fan of urs😭)
"she sounded bad during encore" if you performed a 2 hour long show with full choreo, would you be able to stay in key for the last song when ur out of breath? especially when theyre put on strict diets too, with barely enough calories in a day to do a performance that physical, would u be able to hold a note? would your vocals still be as stable as there were at the beginning of the show during the first song? the answer is probably fucking not. her lack of vocal training is not her fault, as it is her company's responsibility to notice her mistakes to help her and schedule lessons for her. she has already expressed concern and insecurity of her own vocals. she already KNOWS she needs improvement. and imo, ive already noticed a great deal of improvement from coachella forward. compared to her debut in ssera, shes gotten way more stable. clearly she knows her vocals are lackluster, and she has verbally expressed that shes working to fix it. give her time. repeating the same complaints over and over when she already knows what she needs to improve on and has already acknowledged the criticism; it stops being advice/criticism and it becomes harassment. and if ur gonna bring up sakura's vocals, lets talk about yunjin belting incorrectly and how that will ruin her voice in the future. it seems that hybe doesnt give proper vocal training to anyone in their group. i can hear her throat strain during multiple encores. which is also understandable and im not attacking her whatsoever. just making a point that its not just sakura who gets neglected.
This is such a bad defense because you are acting like we are asking for the impossible when dozens upon dozens of idols have proven that it is totally possible to sound great during encores.
Do you think that the people who vote for and hype up idols for their visuals only, can also be the ones that then criticize them when they're not a good singer ? I'm not sure.
chojimi, I love you (as a k-tuber of course) but I can't lie. Sakura is a bad singer :( we criticize her so that she can get better. It's been nearly 13 years of her being an idol, and she still can't sing.
Yeah the “ you shouldn’t criticize her because she’s obvious trying “ point is just ???? Like yeah a singer can’t sing people will talk about it, this is not about demanding her to be Beyoncé but being able to hold a tune, she can bring something to the group and yet be criticized by not being able to sing
@@el972I don’t think that’s what he meant at all, what the criticism boils down to just being that Sakura doesn’t add anything to the group just because she’s not good vocally. We know she isn’t a good singer at all and he’s not trying to say that we can’t criticize her for it. It’s just that people turn this into Sakura being a useless member
And the argument that she shouldn’t have to improve because the industry isn’t always focused on talent is an odd point to make. If an idol is already underwhelming as anything (a vocalist, dancer, performer, whatever), they shouldn’t be expected to stay stagnant just because the industry allows it - it feels disingenuous somehow, especially if the idol has had this role for over a decade.
@@Pineconeong the thing is I don’t think I saw a lot of people saying she’s an useless member ? Maybe it’s my side of the internet, but it read more like a fear of her being seen like the useless one
@@el972 I did not say she shouldn’t be criticized because she’s trying. I really tried to emphasize every couple of points in the video that I don’t condemn people for *personally* criticizing her vocal ability, or for wanting her to improve
Agreed. But the contrats between studio and live is very evident, and le sserafim hardly do live so isnt suprising that it call attention. It isnt that bad of a performance. But having the 'pro' idol attached to it makes one wonder about the values of the group / company and the " insinserity/ mask fell of an actor" feeling. There are plenty of poor techinicaly singer in all generes , but at least we are used to what they actually can do + autotune, not just studio version. And being good techinically dosent garanty engaging music. And the mith of merithocracy crumbles for many with this. Yes she brings a lot of value to the group and in her position. Am a fan. What I dont get much in the kpop culture is the necessity of some people to try to drag the other down like with sport teams rivality culture, that I also dosent get but am used to it. My only theory is the wins in tv shows gamefy this type of thinking. and the target audience of younger people that need to defend their building personality in teenager years against the judgement of others. + the parasocial of " fake friends" / " ideal love interrest" / " celebrety crush".
I like the video, however, kpop idols are artists as they perform the "art" in question (which in this csse is the music they either write or are given). Other than that, brilliant video, but I still expect that people, whose careers involve singing/rapping on a regular basis, can decently sing/rap. But that's just me
Everyone saying „We just criticising, they are idols after all“ when they do is put Sakura down and then you guys wonder why some idols have to take a hiatus. You can have a serious impact on others self esteem and mental health just over a one lacking performance after they WON. just celebrate ffs
I couldnt give a crap what they sound like on a music show. I watch a music show performance to see them dance. I listen to the album to hear them sing. Edit: im adding more lol. Honestly i dont care if youre not a great singer, you can still make music. There are a ton of amazing artists and performers who have voices that divide people, that many say do not sound good. M shadows, conor oberst, lenny kilmeister. These are still celebrated musical artists. All that matters is they make good music.
I still don't see what did sakura do wrong 🤷🤷🤷 she did her part as well as you can her voice didn't crack her rapping was well she hit the notes right soo I don't understand all the hate especially this amount of hate it's actually crazy 🤷
I forget where I read this recently but I cant get the thought out of my brain now...the discourse surrounding Sakura and Le Sserafim as a whole group feels eerily similar to the discourse surrounding Lia and Itzy. Both girls are far from bringing their group down so seeing these kind of "constructive" criticisms really boils my blood.
Lia kept up with all of itzys dances. Her dancing was never noticeably bad in group performances. Sakura is more comparable to Jennie, who was noticeably throwing off the performance when she didn’t put in effort. Or momo who got almost the exact same criticisms as Sakura. Lia wasn’t even getting as much dance criticisms around the time she went on hiatus. Last year the main criticism was on itzys music flopping. Are yall holding back on criticism because you’re afraid of idols going on hiatus?
for me, kpop stans have already mass hated her for her singing skills before which she has admitted herself is her weak point. now what? are y'all going to continue to hate her every single time she demonstrates that she can't sing that well? what exactly is the endpoint? do we want her kicked out of lesserafim or depressed from all the hate? if she can't sing and you value singing ability then keep it pushing and don't stan but the hate just tells me that kpop stans, as usual, are vile and love to dogpile onto idols.
Hello! There’s a larger discussion to this topic that I wasn’t aware of when making this video - th-cam.com/video/qJN8VDjJ_to/w-d-xo.htmlsi=09S2f1SmDFaoyL3L is kind of a part 2 to this discussion with more consideration for the larger issues at hand
As someone who doesn't care that much about dancing skills in kpop, watching them dancing without music made me realize how much they move and how impressive it is.
I mainly think its lack of proper vocal training.
I think that a lot of idols got into this industry due to their looks and charisma over genuine talent in singing and dancing and currently companies don't really seem interested in training them much musically anyways and focus on the dance and performance aspect.
It's not a LACK of training. Not anyone can just sing really good with enough training. Singing involves A LOT of natural talent. This is why all arounders are so rare. Not everyone can be the best at everything. If they cared about good singers they would only recruit people from the The Voice. If you like singers than stan the singers, I don't see a point of criticizing idols that can't sing just so they feel bad?
Thing is Kpop is still about music. People have a right to criticise someone's voice especially when it's apparent they cant sing all that well. Yes she brings charisma but so does chaewon and yunjin.
Personally it's counterproductive to not criticise kpop vocals as kpop is becoming more global and people would like to know if who they're stanning can hold a tune
Is it that people personally want to stan vocally talented idols, or is it that people are offended that other people don't have the same preferences, resulting in "undeserving" idols being successful
Kpop has never been solely about the vocals in music, even in early gens. There’s a reason why second gen introduced the position of visual. Suzy’s official debut position was visual and maknae. It wasn’t until late second and early third gen really when positions really started mixing (it was ALWAYS acceptable for a member to just be a dancer or visual). I don’t understand why this is suddenly an issue with newer generations.
Idols aren’t always singers and singers don’t always have to be idols. If you want vocals, turn to balladeers. You go to Kpop for the performance factor. Hyoyeon from SNSD has always said she is an idol/dancer/DJ, NOT A SINGER. She’s been very outspoken about this over the past decade.
It’s okay for you to want vocals or Stan a vocal centric group, but to hold that as the main factor for success or as a mandatory to be an “idol”, is very misconstrued.
@@MissyxAkunaiNobody said they want vocals. OP even said, just carry a tune. That is a basic requirement for any musical performer. People don’t want to pay concert tickets for someone who can’t sing at all. Personally, I think a consumer (kpop fan) is allowed to ask for improvement from you. They only ask so because they believe you have potential and you’re simply not fulfilling it. A “hater” would simply tell Sakura that she was bad at singing, the real fans are telling her she’s bad at singing and giving her ways to improve her singing, some even going into the specifics of how she can improve and also commenting positively on areas she’s already good at. Also, if you care about your craft, you’re never satisfied with the fulfilling the bare minimum. You’re constantly seeking to improve anyway, so you would gladly accept criticisms, if it meant constant improvement. There are many kpop idols that take money out of their own pocket to pay for vocal lessons themselves instead of waiting for the company they’re signed to to improve their vocal department. Sakura simply doesn’t care about the craft of singing at this point. Fans have a right to be done with her, or to still ask for improvement. All I’ll say is they’re asking for disappointment because at this point, it’s been 10 years. She’s not looking to improve.
@@MissyxAkunai i think the issue here is that 2nd gen group "visuals" were never expected to be anything more than visuals. they barely got lines in songs, they just stood there, looked pretty, got Ad deals and acting gigs, everyone was cool about it. but in 3rd and 4th gen, kpop stans suddenly started wanting "equal line distribution for the whole group" and "appreciation" for the visual members, new gen fans get offended and drag you for not pretending that the less skilled idols are also good singers or listening to their solo projects. if people are gonna be peer pressured into acting like they enjoy every member's singing to not get called solo stans, then every member better be good.
@@MissyxAkunainobody ask them to be mariah carey and wendy..just know how to hit basic notes..
I think HYBE (Source Music) is the one that needs to hear the criticism. Sakura not being able to sing proves that HYBE doesn’t properly train their idols (vocally).
So why can everyone else sing good, but not sakura?
If that was the case, then Kazuha should've been on the same boat. She's been singing professionally for barely 2 years. But, she's actually improved quite a bit since debut. She's already surpassed Sakura in dancing, singing, and even Korean.
So, it's not really Source/HYBE's fault. No hate, but it's just Sakura. She doesn't have the vocal cords for standard singing. Her type of voice is best suited for AKB style of singing. Which is why she sounds better in those songs. But, people take those examples and think it's everyone's else fault and Sakura is the victim.
@@user-gp1bt4vm3r I agree. And other idols under Hybe sing amazing and have improved, so why can't sakura?
The girl just can’t sing man. Ever heard of tone deafness? Sometimes you can try and try and still can’t improve. But that’s not her role in the group anyway. Saying all their idols can’t sing is just showing kpop twt bias atp.
Sakura has been an idol for almost 10 years now, she literally improved on every single aspect except that one. You literally have herself saying it even in the debut LSF documentary. She cannot sing, she reached the peak of what she can do and must stay on her comfortable tone to at least not sound bad. People thinking otherwise are completely delulu and missing the point.
The whole point of the video and what kpop kids need to understand is that it doesn't mean it's bad, groups need such a varied amount of talents that is simply impossible for everyone to be on the same level, her talents are naturally elsewhere and they are as needed and functional to the group like Chaewon or Yunjin's vocals.
Absolutely none of them have the comedic timing Kura has, it comes out so naturally she's bound to lead variety shows eventually, she's quite the competent dancer too, slower learner than the rest but definitely gets the job done. Those are her strenghts and we all know that.
I expect an idol to be able stand still and sing a damn song with stability. Why is that too much to ask for? Not all idols need to be a vocal powerhouse but they should at least be able to hold a note.
i agree, i don't get defending idols who can't even sing their own parts. its their job at the end of the day and top groups like LSF get paid millions so at the very least they should be capable of singing their lines. all they get is around 10-20 seconds lines for a song so how can't they sing that while standing? it's embarassing and LSF already got criticised for their unforgiven encore just to not improve almost a year later.
if sakura, eunchae and kazuha cant sing and improve then hybe needs to reduce their lines by a lot and let yunjin/chaewon sing 80% of their songs.
But why? Would you expect a bad dancer not be in the choreo? Would you expect some who isn’t as outgoing to be on these variety shows? K-pop groups are “groups” if they each had every ability they would be soloist but they don’t so they put these groups together to cover their bases. Stop focusing on an individual when it comes to how these groups perform. Literally the only time they will ever be required to sing live is during this encores. Aka 1% of the time and after a massive win. All these bad expectations do is shit on someone’s parade when they should be celebrating.
Again, if you can’t sing why aren’t you just a background dancer then???
@@BagelsandJewce the main part of being an idol is still singing. they sell music which requires singing.. and groups with bad dancers rarely have intense choreos and the bad dancers are always in the back. and if they can’t sing live for once then they deserve the criticisms
@@yohanedescends4683yall don’t criticize tho yall straight up bully
I totally get your point and it’s important to acknowledge that kpop idols are more than vocalists and can excel in different areas and bring a variety of strengths.
K-pop idols are however musical artists. In my opinion, it is valid for listeners to point out the low vocal standard of kpop, no matter how realistically, truly productive or not it is.
While Sakura has other strengths and brings valuable assets to the table, I don’t find anything disrespectful or rude in analysing her vocal skill, or in her case, lack there of.
Vocal is an area of real struggle for her and it has been for years. And still, she proves to be a hard worker who has improved in other areas to become a great performer.
ofcourse analysing is not disrespectful but 90% of the comments adressing her contain very foul language and hate. I've maybe seen 10 comments out of the thousands of replies that contain constructive feedback.
Omg i love your channel😭, lol
The thing with kpop fans is that due to fanwar nature, there are a lot of annoying ppl who just... love to hate. There are ppl who are genuinely giving Sakura (and hybe's bad vocal training as a whole excluding pledis who actually gives solid vocal training) constructive criticism, and there are ppl who are MASSIVE haters using foul language and just being plain disgusting in order to praise other ppl they stan
It's funny that you say that because I've read all the comments under this video and there is not a single hateful comment so far, all I can see is the 10% of "constructive criticism that is rightfully justified and backed with tones of arguments behind it. Why are you trying to victimize someone and say that people are hating on her in the comment section when it's literally not what's happening here. @@michaeldang6734
When it comes to Sakura, I recall her saying in the LSF documentary that she felt insecure about her vocals, and even cried about it. While she has improved as a performer, her singing is still lacking. HYBE clearly doesn't seem to prioritize vocal development. However, the company's top priority should be leave minors alone, the next would be to revamp their vocal training structure. They clearly know how to produce great dancers and performers, where oftentimes it seems like they just let their idols coast with whatever vocal skills they already have.
they also should prioritize booting that z10nist pig from their company
I can only speculate but this could be why she has not improve bc of her insecurity. Hence why she has barely any lines. It also makes me wonder if other idols with little lines also want it that way bc they are not great singers and are utilized for visuals and stan attractor thing. Hence this aspect differentiates kpop to actual musicians
The thing, imo, is that talented is earned. People should just put efforts into it. Like... she can improve and it's not far from fetch. Constructive criticism is ok but not hating on her tho...
talent is something you already have skill is what you can improve on
@@armyswhoblinkonce2711 ik but since they are speaking about talent and stuff. Imo, if we go that route. Many of them aren't talented and just trained to be skilled so what's the difference with Sakura ? (I am speaking as a fan of Le sserafim)
@@marwaessaadi yes that’s exactly what i mean most idols aren’t necessarily talented there’s very few who are
I'll take the risk but here's my point of view. I'm not defending those who are insulting her or even making fun of her, of course, but in the other hand I can't say that people criticizing her are wrong. I think that to this point, it would be good to stop providing idols excuses for every bad reviews they get... Sakura is not able to sing her own song correctly while standing straight during multiple encores. We're not talking about hard performances, not even incredible singing skills, but just singing her own song while standing straight and not being out of key... this is really the basics of the basics... And they're going to perform at Coachella this year ?! I'm really afraid of what kind of rude critics she may receive that time and not only from kpop fans... :/
So yeah, I'm not completely ok with the fact that we shouldn't criticize her in public.. the major part of the review I've seen weren't rude but just right. It's literally her job, what she's paid for. People are not waiting for perfection, but just a correrct job. And If she's professional, which I'm really sure she is, she'll take these critics and work harder on her singing skills, maybe with taking classes or practicing more. She already has a very long and impressive carrier, her experience will help her !
Nobody pays for encore performances. Nobody was cheated out of their money. Idols having an entertainment job doesn't mean they have to take whatever the audience throws at them. Some people think not dating is a part of the idol job!
@@bopete3204 I get your point. I used the example of encores just like we saw recently, because this is the perfect example where you really sing live with no lipsync, no back track.. and she is always out of key. Maybe during akb48 and izone she was able to rely on the high number of members
But now she's part of a five member group under one of the biggest agency in the world, who's making music destined to the international public and.... she can't sing...
I don't think It's taking whatever the audience throws at them (cause ofc I know that it often happen, that idols are no superheroes and not every groups have all rounder members)... But here It's literally about being part of a group of singer and not knowing how to sing... Idk but for me it's.. concerning ? 😆
@@bopete3204She was paid for concerts, and she still did not sing well. And pd48 was rigged.
I would agreee with the "is more about charisma and character" take if they were only influencers but they're not, they're kpop idols, and kpop has had a huge impact on the music industry globally. In my opinion it is more about the music, without music releases there wouldn't be a chance to see their charisma and character, so yeah i think that being able to hold a note while standing still is to be expected from an idol rather than just having charisma
Idols are not about music, music has perhaps become one of the strongest qualities an idol can have, but if we are really honest the kpop industry is not about that.
They are artists with the aim of entertaining their fans by any means necessary, it is no coincidence that in this industry they pretend to be their fans' boyfriends, they become actors, they go on variety shows, they go to fashion events...
Geisha is an ancient classic example that was the closest to this.
It's the type of entertainment that has always existed in Eastern culture, but not so much in the West.
Here is my argument as a Kpop fan since gen 2:
Would you ever imagine back then in the day people like Yoona and Hyoyeon from SNSD would already be criticized as "can't sing"? Would u ever believe that SNSD was put into question about whether or not they can sing and they only got recognized years later? Thatz how high the standards were back in the day. Back then, u have to be skillful to debut. That required years of trainings and tons of investments. But ever since Kpop was opened to international markets, the standards kinda became much more distorted when people like Sakura, Eunchae, and Shuhua can debut while people who are actually skilled and well-trained got rejected all the time. That put us into this question: was it fair for people who actually worked hard, and gifted with talents?
Im not saying Sakura did not work hard. She did, but the same improvements in dancing werent seen in her singing. Was it her fault? Not entirely when Hybe artists now are also stagnant with their skills and Hybe invested nothing on that. But it is obviously not fair for those that actually have the true passion and skills for singing and work hard on that. It kinda cheapens the standards of singing.
So to answer: who benefit from these criticisms? It would be the standards of talents in the entire Kpop industry as well as our expectations of artists. Kpop was never like this back then. Kpop and pop music in general should always be for people who are gifted and if not, at least work hard for it. Criticisms of Sakura is a reminder that we can do much better. And i genuinely believe Sakura herself can do much better. Just give her the right resources. Her power of will is already immense
I saw a video where Haewon tells Jihyo how she only trained for like 3 years while Jihyo did 10, which only served to remind me how crazy little some idols train nowadays.
Yeah, true, but in Haewon's case it doesn't really matter because she's really talented in both singing and dancing. Also Jihyo is a bit of an anomaly (which shows in her skillset), i would say the average training time in 3rd gen was probably around 5-6 years. @@veila0924
@@veila09243 years is not little at all... Jihyo debuted at 18 which means she's been a trainee since she was 8... That is insane and should not be the norm nor the standard...
@@veila0924 in jihyo defense she spent fírst 7 years as an acting trainee
@@namanh8439not first 7, first 4. Her mother said that JYPE told Jihyo to be an idol when she was around grade 6 or 7 that's 12 years old in Korea.
Still, even if Jihyo isn't the best vocalist out there but more of average side, over the years she's become some of the best performers and her dancing has gotten better as well.
Does HYBE suck at training idols' vocals? Yes.
Can Sakura improve her vocals outside of company? Yes.
Plenty of idols such as Suhyun from Akmu, Minzy from 2ne1, Hyolyn from Sistar, Woojin former Stray kids improved after taking lessons outside of their respected companies during hiatuses and contact expirement. Then you also have examples of Taemin and Tiffany that have their improvements water downed because they're from SME, even though a lot of SME idols didn't improve.
It's easy for Sakura to say she's read comments and then ask producers for less lines and look stressed out during every encore despite having basic lines. If every other female idols get negative attention for forgetting a dance step twice, then Sakura should be getting one to unity she improves and I'm sorry for coming off as cruel.
Even in Hybe, Jin from BTS had to seek external vocal lessons to improve his singing bc in BTS early days he struggled to keep his voice stable and had a very nasal tone that didnt fit him at all, and he had to learn to sing from 0 since he entered the company as an aspiring actor and then got moved to a kpop project, so he used to get very few lines. Once he started improving on his singing he eventually got more parts in the songs, and from their concerts his voice sounds so good! And even someone like Jimin who is very criticized about his vocals (he's not bad every single time and also had some improvements since debut, but these past years he regressed a lot and i say this as a huge fan of bts), started to take more vocal lessons last year before he got into the military bc he saw how he got criticized for his encore during Face promotions and said on a livestream that he felt he needed a lot of improvement to show fans a better performance.
4th gen idols just need to get out of their company trainers comfort zone and start getting serious with their improvement if they dont want to get a bad rep or start feeling bad about "bringing the group down". I hope the best for Sakura in the future, she's a hard working person and she can be a decent singer if she puts her mind into it!
@@mayruuh you're honestly right. idk what wtf happening at hybe, while jin has improved tremendously and has honestly become my favorite vocalists in the group along with JK, taehyung and jimin seem to be regressing by the year. idk if it's after MOTS era or LY: answer, but they started singing songs out of their comfortable range and haven't stopped since. instead of fixing the issue, hybe nowadays just pitch corrects the shit out of their songs and lets them struggle live. its kinda disappointing cause singularity, stigma, serendipity, and lie were so perfect vocally, i thought it was only gonna go up from there. they really need to start having vocal lessons outside of the company.
@@Callisto_52Hzbts imo have had their sound change too much with excessive auto tune. Listening to their older songs from 2013-2016 and comparing them to their releasing 2018-now you release how much more auto tune your hear.
Like before they obviously did the kpop thing where they smoothed out the voices and you don’t hear any imperfections. But now they rely a lot on auto tune when signing, maybe to compensate for not being able to hit higher notes, but the auto tune has become a lot more apparent, and since it works for them, I don’t think they’ve themselves have needed to vocally improve.
I mean why would you want to improve if you don’t need to, since you’re fans will still listen to the music? There’s no gain you get, like maybe you get some criticism, but it isn’t as bad as that one time twice was getting flames for their encore stage each time during that one comeback a couple of years ago. -so they improved their encore stages. If you’re not getting that type of hate. You don’t need to improve, and if you’re not trying to improve you may eventually regress.
There should always be a place for constructive criticism. If not, then the industry should just shift from music if charisma and character are the forefront.
But I definitely do agree that the nature of the backlash she’s receiving is more hateful, disingenuous, and not beneficial at all. Those are my two cents.
Kpop is first and foremost a MUSIC industry and what separates an idol from a random backup dancer IS singing or rapping. (Not saying it has to be outstanding btw). If you can't do either you're not really an idol. Critique towards an objectively terrible vocal performance IS valid and NOT hate. While it is normal in jpop to have group members that never really contribute to any (degree of) vocals, this is kpop and not jpop. In kpop - since the very beginnings - the whole fun of the fandom was to consume the MUSIC and to give our 2 cents on it. This includes the vocal performance as this is the MOST important thing on the albums you consume. Plus. Critique in general is important so anyone can improve and do better. Kpop ents need to know what we accept and what we don't accept in order to have more effective sales and to protect the overall quality of the industry. Even if they don't listen to us: Ultimately music is art and art is meant to be critiqued. It's not weird to want to consume a music industry by talking about what actually matters. I actually find it concerning when people who personally don't care about any singing/rapping go out their way to shame/gaslight others for doing so. It's not okay imo. It's uncomfortable energy :(
well said!
I'd argue Kpop is about performance much more than it is about the music. Why, of all music artists in the world, many of whom have much more to offer vocally and creatively than any kpop artist, would you be into kpop? The shift towards performance oriented groups happened because performance is what draws people in and because most idols make the most money out of concerts aka performing. I am not happy with the current vocal standard of kpop but I find the dismissal of dance and performance art very disrespectful.
Not to mention that vocals on album are always mastered and processed. Sounding good on an album has nothing to do with your live singing ability so I find that a ridiculous argument.
@@mimil5338 I get what you are saying in that Kpop has the added dance aspect but it’s not a dance team it is a music genre therefore it cannot be about performance. The majority of those who consume Kpop consume it through the music. While the performance aspect is what sets Kpop apart from things like pop it will always be about the music first or else you have dance teams
@@mimil5338Nobody is dismissing dance. What everyone is saying, me included, is that vocals is THE more important aspect compared to vocals and what DOES set an idol apart from a backing dancer. Nobody's saying backing dancers aren't good or worthy. Nobody is saying dance doesn't matter AT ALL in kpop. It's a good aspect of it, but not the #1 characteristic for a music industry. You can't see dance on a CD, you know. Most people don't watch all the live performances, but at most just the MV. These numbers can be seen directly on TH-cam for any group. So yeah. Dance is important, stage presence is important. But just not as important as being able to vocally deliver. That has always been a objective distinction between an idol vs just a dancer.
@@soomi I’m sorry but what you said is contradictory. If most people aren’t watching live performances, then live singing ability shouldn’t matter and neither should this encore. I don’t even disagree that there should be a higher standard for live vocals, but the way you’re presenting your argument doesn’t make sense.
The nuance in the criticism is that if people are trained to sing, dance and perform, there is a basis for what can be expected. No one expects Sakura to be able to hit high notes like an opera singer but after 10 years of singing. You can expect her to be able to hold a note stably after more than ten years of being an idol (and yes, mistakes are allowed!). It's up to the company to find a balance between what their artists can realistically achieve after this training and with their given capabilities.
Some companies go wrong with this (JYP, for example, often gives ITZY and TWICE songs outside their 'comfortable' performable vocal capabilities. The same applies to Le Sserafim. For instance with Blackpink (or New Jeans, 2NE1, GIDLE) , one of their strengths, is that for even the weaker vocalist of the group the songs are still fitted perfectly to what they realistically can perform and still sound good when preforming live.
it’s sad how low the standard in kpop has gotten for live vocals. sakura gets most of the criticism because she’s been an idol for over 10 years and shown no improvement. why should people be lenient with someone who haven’t improved? she could’ve had a variety career after izone but instead she CHOSE to pursue an singing career again. shes rich and can afford outside lessons if hybe’s vocal coaches are bad or ask for less lines in their music
People say vocal criticism doesn’t matter and yet the 2nd generation of K-POP exists. 🙄
Also vocals matter because the real question is if Sakura can’t sing why does Sakura get to be an idol and the girl dancing in the background doesn’t? If all Sakura can bring to the table is her performance abilities why is she not a background dancer?
Honestly, I don’t think people have realized how watered down and one-dimensional K-Pop music has become BECAUSE we let the K-Pop industry get away with not even giving minimal attention to the state of their idol’s vocal or rap abilities. They receive training to sing in a way that appeals to the most people and don’t actually invest long-term in the healthy growth of an idol’s abilities.
Expectations are the lowest they have EVER been and yet the vast majority of main vocalists in 4 gen groups wouldn’t even make it as lead vocalists in a 3rd gen group. It’s absurd and depressing! This needs to stop and industries need to be the ones that are targeted.
well ideally our ears would benefit from this criticism if it were taken into account by anyone involved. i do think sakura has been singled out a little unfairly considering kazuha and eunchae are nearly just as bad. but in the end, we’ve ended up with so many poor idol singers because of the tendency to exclusively praise whatever music/performance is put out by an idol group regardless of the quality. in an ideal world people would not be buying mass quantities of an album when the music/singing sucks. but hybe seems to have made an art form out of this (see: bts, txt, enhypen, and now le sseraphim). how can we combat this trend of poor singing if not thru criticism? my main quarrel is with hybe and their constant refusal to provide vocal training, and until some change is made there you’re not gonna find me buying any album from any group who can’t sing a 2min song standing still.
i only have one thing to say: kpop is a product. we are the consumers. if the product is "faulty" we have the right to complain. sakura's job is to entertain. and she can't even hold a note. we have the right to criticise her.
I disagree. I'm frankly tired of idols not being able to perform or performing badly. I'm tired of lipsyncing in every performance. I don't care if they're out of breath and I can hear it during their singing, I want just a tad bit of authenticity in this plastic genre.
Second comment: I saw the encore by now and I can honestly say it's not the worst thing I've ever seen. Although it is concerning how much anxiety a lot of idols exude when performing these encores, probably knowing somewhere someone will post some hate comments on it for real. Ultimately it's their entertainment's job to prepare them for these events, so they go by smoothly without stress and anxiety for the idols. I definitely hold Source accountable for putting them in this situation like this in this state. Both the nerves and the quality of the live performance. People do forget that encores should be about celebration and that it doesn't have to be 100% perfect, although now the discussion on encores alone has become so bitter and toxic that to a degree I don't blame any idol for having anxiety over it.
I just want to point this out that being a "musical artist" doesn't mean that you should be able to write, compose, or produce music. A singer is also considered a musical artist even tho they can't write or produce.. I've seen many people say that not every musician is an artist but if you actually look up what a musical artist means, it's quite literally that. So singers ARE musical artists..
Yeah after reading through the comments, I had a skewed perspective on what “artist” means in the context of music. I assumed “artist” was more of a title that is earned by someone who takes the craft and art of music into consideration, whereas non-artists are the ones who are less involved in the production process and perceive the industry as more of a business than a form of expression
I didn’t mean to make it sound like I don’t consider performers artists - performance is absolutely an art form in it’s own right - but it really does sound that way in this video 😭 I apologize
That reminds me of people saying kpop rappers aren't real rappers if they never write their own lyrics. Come on now. They ARE rappers because they ARE rapping. It doesn't matter who wrote it, really. Just bonus point if your company even let's you do that or if you can really write your own raps. A lot of people don't keep in mind how controlling some kpop ents are and thus we'll never know which idols (singing or rapping) are able to do more than just beyond a vocal delivery on a track. And a lot of people forget that literally anyone could maybe write a rap if they wanted to, but not all writers are automatically serious rappers either. I'm just saying. 🤷♀
@@soomi yes I agree. In rapping, a lot of things are considered like flow, word play, delivery, etc not just the pen game ( it's like a term used for writing good rap lyrics)
@@choujimi the art of performance is just as important as the art of creating music and kpop is one of the best examples we have. An example from the main pop culture we have is Lady Gaga. Her music is good but it's not something phenomenal or "new". Her legacy is built on her performance ability and the way she presents herself and her music.
Some of these music shows should bring the live vocals only rule back. I love a vocally clean performance stage, where i can focus on the dance and the charisma of an idol, but I also enjoy hearing properly live vocals. I love knowing my favorite idols can hit those high notes consistently, or how music is rearranged to preserve the singer's voice. I love hearing little lyrical mistakes and when members harmonize. I like being impressed at how well an idol controls their voice while dancing, or watching them improve over time.
Removing actual live vocals from music shows was such a mistake. It gave companies an excuse to slack in training vocalists.
I really dont think it's disingenuous to ask someone whose main part of the job entails singing to be able to hold a tune while standing. We're not asking for everyone to be exceptional, just to be able to hold the note while not dancing. It shouldn't be seen as too much to ask.
I also really don't understand not considering idols as artists? For me singing is an art form. Dancing is an art form. Performing is an art form. And idols do all three so i don't see why we shouldn't consider them artists.
Not condemning any hate but valid criticism is absolutely needed. Who benefits from the criticism? The whole industry should be benefiting from it because we shouldn't be in the wrong for expecting the bare minimum.
kpop is music. kpop is and should be all about just music. the idol standard has declined so much, to the point where as long as you're pretty and can somewhat dance, ur good to go. i don't think there's anything wrong with pointing that out or being upset about it because, at the end of the day, there is no excuse for not being able to sing your own song. i just hope with this uproar, companies will hear the public and put more importance on vocal abilities. i need more groups like nmixx!!!
Long text again (Yes i'm that extra):
So Sakura does bring things to LS, and has improved in areas where she been criticitized for in the past. She's a really strong performer, a really good Dancer, her personality is GOLD for variety content, but the thing is: Sakura is a musical artist. I'm not expecting Sakura to be Wendy, Solar, Ningning or Lily, that's unrealistic, but somebody who is the music industry should be able to sing their really Easy parts that they're given. Running away from your problems or hiding behind them, it's not the solution. Yes, criticism isn't always something that we want to hear, but sometimes is necessary if someone wants to improve. Will that happen? Idk, Hybe is known for not training their Idols vocally, or putting a 1/8 of the effort that companies such as SM, Woolim, Starship or Jellyfish.
Which leads me to my next point: Idols who recieved criticism and learned from it to improve. Shuhua was dragged until Tomboy era for EVERYTHING. She was called a dozen, a mere visual who was benefited from the others members of (G) Idle hard work, etc, but when Nxde happened and Soojin left, the girl improved in everything was average or straight up Bad at, Yes, Shuhua is still a really weak singer, but at least now, we can hear her sing live more comfortably, her dancing improved TREMENDOUSLY, and her stage presence? Top tier. Another example is Chaeyeon, after she went in SWF, not only she improved, on her dancing and stage presence but due to her hard work, she earned the respect of her fellow competitors that believed that Kpop Main Dancers weren't real dancers. And Last but not least, the members of Ive, i don't know what happened but their abilities to sing live have improved a Lot, especially Leeseo.
for a kpop stan sakura being charismatic and being able to dance well seem like fair trade offs for her vocal ability but for VAST majority of people who listen to kpop for what it is, a music genre, her not being able to sing well is an issue and HYBE should take the criticism and train their idols to sing better
To add to what you are saying there are also dance professionals and variety careers being an idol is being able to be a decent vocalist, dancer, and variety personality
Tbh there's not a whole lot I can say to defend her vocal it is shaky, weak, unstable etc...ik for a FACT no one in that company is giving her vocal lesson but yk improvement is a thing it's not too late for her unless everybody at that company heard her sing and was like yes exactly (also this lowkey reminding me of ive and wonyoung like are y'all grilling her now bc ive improved?)
Please don't say someone is either an artist or a performer. Performing is an art.
To answer your question. You're calling a problem "the nature of the industry" but that doesn't mean it's not a problem. Debuting minors or exploiting people is also the "nature" of the industry, and the point of criticism is to incite improvement. We shouldn't accept mediocrity just because we've been conditioned to do so these past years. It's nothing different than shrugging your shoulder and brushing off any other problem because "that's just how the world works."
I agree, performing is an art in its own right. I shouldn’t have made it sound like I was separating the two.
Kpop not prioritizing singers is nowhere near the ethical crisis that debuting young idols is. That is quite an outlandish comparison - nobody is going to be taken advantage of or actually hurt by a kpop idol with poor vocal abilities
The point of the comparison wasn't the severity of the problem. It was hardly a comparison at all, the parallel I was drawing is that both are problems that you can call the "nature of the industry" because they are both common practice, and I could list hundreds more that are probably closer to what you're talking about in terms of severity, it's just the first that came to mind. @@choujimi
@@choujimi it doesn’t have to be an ethical issue to be criticized? It’s business. Live performance is a part of an idols job. The fans that consume kpop are allowed to ask them to improve
If kpop is more about charisma and character, why train idols at all? Just hire a bunch of social media influencers and put them in groups. This argument makes no sense.
Edit: Criticism isn't hating so I don't get your point that idols shouldn't be criticised.
I feel like constructive critism is good, but straight out hating is not. I feel like idols should be talented (Not necessarily all rounders) but in the end. Vocals, rap and everything you in the song is most important because when you say, "I like Kpop/I listen to Kpop" you're talking about music not the dance. So, you should be able to sing and dance. Charisma and the personality is what companies/idols bring out to us so we can forgive them for lacking vocals and music. Dance is Good to have too btw.
why are kpop idols held to a lower standard than western artists? for example alicias voice crack at the super bowl. we are ALLOWED to expect vocals for people who claim to be ARTISTS
I tried to point that out - I think it’s because Alicia Keys calls herself a singer and artist, where kpop idols often do not have to
I think there is something to say with the added dance aspect and then the variety culture it’s just not the same as pop I don’t think we can compare the two
I love Le Sserafim but the average level of singing skills in the group is worrying. Chaewon and Yunjin are carrying everyone else on their backs. Kazuha seems to be improving which is good, and I'm sure Eunchae being so young also has much room for improvement. Sakura however... I feel bad for her because she's aware of her limited abilities herself, but I feel like her singing has never been as obvious as now in Le Sserafim. Could this be due to the music genre? When she sang that famous "Yume de kiss me", her singing wasn't amazing but it was alright, not like now. I think i's pointless to send hate but yeah idols should be able to do the bare minimum. (Also I hate when people are like "you try to sing and see if you can do it better!" - like bruh it's not my job).
Most of the hate that Sakura receives is executive, I agree. I don't think that all idols should be the greatest singers or dancers, as that's not what K-pop is really about. It's only partly about the music; the rest is the branding. But still, it's not that Sakura is mediocre, she's incredibly bad. Notably bad, and it does hurt the group performances, especially more vocally heavy ones. She brings a lot to the group, such as variety skills and charisma, but as a performer, she's very lacking.
I just wish netizens would actually criticize and not just fuel hate tho
I'm the type of person who really hates when idols or trainees on shows get hyped just because they can show their growth, while in reality all the others who came to the show with talent had way better and worthier growths that just happened to not be on a tv show.. A trainee goes from untalented to average and people are on their knees while the talented ones get completely overlooked.. So I understand where people are coming from criticizing/hating on low skills idols who become very popular, it makes the gap between the talent and the popularity too big and obvious. The criticism and hate are always sharper when the idols are in their peak, people just can't stand it. And I bet that some of those same people would be leaving encouraging words to an unpopular idol with similar skills, just because they're not famous which makes them exempt from deserving hate and criticism. In the end Sakura is not near the worst singer in kpop, and she does a great job at giving her voice a signature "sakura" sound, but I noticed that a lot of the hate towards her is driven by jealousy, and a feeling of unfairness. Which again I understand but really Sakura does a great job in her group and despite knowing her limits she fought and worked so hard to be where she is now.
Yes! Sohee in Produce101 and Hyewon in Produce48 taking up places that could be taken by more skilled trainees enraged me (i know it was rigged anyway but still)
I enjoy your channel and I appreciate your point of view, but this is honestly a cop out. Here’s why I say that:
1)This is Sakura’s third idol group. She made the choice to join each one, including le sserafim. She didn’t have to join after Iz*one disbanded and graduating from HKT48, and could have taken her established popularity into other parts of entertainment that didn’t require singing into a microphone. She’s an excellent entertainer with intelligence, quick wit, comedic timing, and conventional beauty on her side. She did *not* have to be in le sserafim.
2)Hybe as a parent company doesn’t focus on having the perfect idol from the start, but gives idols under each sub-label open access to vast resources. This is a benefit that I actually appreciate about Hybe as allows artists to have more freedom to grow, but it also allows artists to grow stagnant. I wouldn’t go so far as to call Sakura lazy, but walking into the building of the biggest k-pop entertainment company with the resources being offered to her to improve her vocal ability and saying “give me less lines please” makes that a poor defense of her lack of vocal ability.
3)The western expansion of k-pop continues and those audiences have a different set of expectations for live performers. Live vocals are more important than being entertained, and they won’t lower the bar just because it’s the norm in le sserafim’s country of origin. Sakura is in a group that is expanding their musical offerings to the west, looking for success in the biggest music market in the world that just happens to be there. Western fans expect for mics to be on and for the vocals to at least be above average. Fun choreography and beautiful faces isn’t enough of a distraction to get away from the vocals. Even with her fewer lines, Sakura should be preparing to meet the demands of a music market her team wants to succeed. It’s expensive to promote in another market. K-pop idols are already at a disadvantage because, despite the English releases, they’re still foreign. Why disadvantage themselves further?
4)I agree that a lot of the criticism of Sakura is unproductive, but that’s unfortunately the nature of being in the public eye- your worst moments *will* be picked apart like vultures to roadkill. Most of their favorite idols are on the same level of Sakura’s abilities, but they won’t be honest about that. And, to be fair, even Yunjin, who we know is a talented singer, didn’t sound great up there. Kazuha and Eunchae didn’t sound great, and Chaewon was the only one who sounded decent. I can recognize that, potentially, maybe 4/5 of them were not giving any energy into an encore stage vocal performance, but, excluding Yunjin, maybe there were. As a public figure whose role is a singer in a group that makes music none of them are above criticism, constructive or not. If they are not doing well at their job, especially if they want to financially or socially benefit from it, people are going to point it out. Sure, singers have off days and should absolutely be given grace for that. But if the majority of an idol’s days when they’re actually singing live are off days, then why should fans or potential fans look away?
You might be okay with lowering the bar for k-pop idols, but the rest of the world doesn’t have to and likely won’t. K-pop idols should want to be better and stans should want more from people they spend their time, energy, and money supporting. While k-pop is multifaceted, it is still Korean Popular Music, and that cannot be excluded for the sake of protecting an idol from criticism about their vocal contribution to their group’s music.
In defense of Sakura, she specifically said she wanted to debut in LSF to take on new challenges. She said there was a point where she just wanted to ask for fewer lines but that is not something she wanted to run away from.
Also, vocal lessons will only go so far with terrible vocal direction. The girls did much better on other encores (check the one they did at Inkigayo) but the heavily processed flat talk-singing would not sound the most pleasant live.
@@mimil5338my mentioning of her getting less lines is in response to what choujimi stated in the video. I believe in Sakura. I want to see her grow more confident as a singer, but beyond the encore stage I’m not hearing it.
Vocal direction had nothing to do with the encore stage she’s being criticized for, unless you’re meaning this a different way. She should be learning how to healthily sing FIRST. That’s her instrument and lessons provide the foundation on using it. She doesn’t have to become a Beyoncé level vocalist, but being a competent singer will allow her to more effectively, and confidently, follow/interpret vocal direction.
Sakura isn’t the only one who got criticism bcoz all were bad & off tune, but she became the target cause of her being seniors in industry were singing is required but in her defence, she actually work so so hard & improve in dance, stage presence, it’s hybe problem also her voice is shaky even when she speaks also her won’t gonna change, i feel like if out of 5 atleast 3/4 were stable then it won’t have notice-but only 2 are carrying the vocal & also they aren’t the strongest when comes their own type of song cause people think Yujin is professional opera singer which isn’t fully true but she good in opera & lsf doesn’t sing opera also chaewon is good but not best vocalist to cover other 3 non vocalist were Sakura, eunchae & kazuha are tone deaf they might sing some part well but they are tone deaf 😅
Throwing hate is not okay, but coddling is not okay either….
i'm not listening to her charisma.
said a whole lotta nothing
BYE
I completely agree with everything you said in this video. Because of the these people's expectations, it is completely fair to criticize them as long as it is helpful to them in some way. However, there is a completely different aspect to all of this. These people are human. While it is important for these artists to strive for their best and improve, it is equally as important to recognize their emotions. As you said, it's not like Sakura is weighing down Le Sserafim and she is clearly putting in her respective effort. She already recognizes that she may lack in vocal skills but she is doing the best she can with everything she has. She does not need to hear that anymore.
Yes, being an idol is a profession, and yes, there are high expectations. But these expectations should not come at the expense of an idol's mental well-being and neither should it in any profession.
This is the exact reason why the idol industry is perceived as it is. It is completely toxic. There needs to be a shift in mindset within the fan community. Constructive criticism is one thing, but outright attacks and harassment are completely unacceptable. The fans must remember that idols are not robots and at the end of the day, they're human beings with limitations and vulnerabilities.
Honestly I understand criticizing, but a lot of the « critics » Lesserafim have been getting does NOT come from good intentions and is very obviously hate badly disguised as « criticism ».
Idols should, in my opinion, at least have the ability to sing without sounding bad everytime they do It live. But Sakura’s issue seems to be related to hybe’s training system. The company just doesnt train their idols to be good vocalists, except maybe pledis.
Instead of laughing at a girl who seems about to cry bcs she knows her singing is subpar maybe we should question Why hybe, one of the biggest kpop companies, can’t seem to hire vocal trainers who will teach their idols a healthy way of singing.
theres a reason why the best of yg singers all got training outside the company rather than their in house trainers. at some point, you really gotta sing your own parts well enough. dont think she deserved a dog piling since people just hate to hate, but singing live is part of the job. no ones expecting vocal runs or belts from idols especially those under hybe or outside of sm in general (where people expect the main singers to actually sing more than just average). shes an amazing performer, top 3 in lesserafim in my opinion i lover her fancams so much, but she deserves to go get real training for her voice and hope she can gain confidence to sing on them encore stages.
Idol must at least have a good live vocal, that's the standard,
let me ask you, what award they receive ? It's music awards, not idol awards or dancing awards or visual awards.
Le Sserafim literally won the MAMA Favorite Dance Performance Female Group award
idk, i don’t think we should hate idols, but i do enjoy a good singer. i guess dancing isn’t that important to me when it comes to a good song. and i think idols that ARE weak in singing should 100% try to improve. that’s what makes a song more enjoyable, good voices! but like you said, not every idol is going to fit those standards and it is already crazy how they can do what they do.
I love Sakura as a person and idol generally, i agree that she is entertaining and charismatic, but K-Pop *is* a music industry, so obviously it’s expected for idols to showcase talent, and perpetually, not just once in a while. Asking for less lines will do absolutely no good in the long run, only slow or halt her vocal progress. She can’t improve her skills if she doesn’t use them.
And the argument that she shouldn’t have to improve because the industry isn’t always focused on talent is an odd point to make. If an idol is already underwhelming as anything (a vocalist, dancer, performer, whatever), they shouldn’t be expected to stay stagnant just because the industry allows it - it feels disingenuous somehow, especially if the idol has had this role for over a decade.
Criticism is important in an industry like this, as long as it’s constructive. Obviously, not all of it will be, there will always be losers on the internet who bully and hate on idols for no reason. However, constructive criticism can be such a useful thing for anyone in the music sector, so brushing it off as jabs to someone’s talent isn’t always the solution. But i do understand that the bullying disguised as this often saturates the actual, let’s say, guidance.
Yes, she is ‘pulling her weight’, but the bare minimum is the bare minimum for a reason. Her company could do so much more for her, rather than making her stay at the same stage for so long.
Personally I think I just dislike how many k-pop idols seem scared to sing due to the expectation of ‘perfect vocals’. I’d personally prefer imperfect live singing with a quiet backing track over the overuse of loud backing tracks/ prerecorded vocals (which perpetuate the expectations of perfection). And I do think that kpop isn’t mostly about vocals but given they’re still singers I’d like to hear their real voices sometimes.
(I say this as a fearnot) it's not as if Le Sserafim aren't clearly putting effort into their music, concepts, etc. because I think everyone can recognize they do, but I feel like they have to redistribute their time and efforts to bolster their actual skills. Why do they always talk about their grueling physical training, but they never really talk about vocal training? I don't think the members are untalented. I think they need help- if only to reduce their clear anxiety during encore stages. It's not good to genuinely wish they don't win just to avoid backlash. It shouldn't come to the point where the fans have to bear the burden of justifying these mistakes.
I think sakura's talent is variety. This was a real position when Tv had a way more important role in idols career. Snsd taeyon got heavily critisis back then because she lacked variety skill and looked bored during tvshow. In Japan many idole make their entire career around variety. People like to point out that sakura been singing in a group for 12 years but she never had singing class. AKB48 were 56 member + HKT48 were 35 + NMB48 were 22 + SKE48 were 37 . That around 150 member that were under the management of the 48 groups. let's add that sakura was part of both AKB and HKT her schedul was so full. In japan they don't care about singing. There very fiew member who are know to sing well in akb it was never something fan were asking for. LEt's add the international group, from china/ tailand and the sister group like NGT48 and STU48 IT 300 member Yet sakura stand out and gathered so much fan that the moment she reached 16 teen she enter the top 10 most popular member and never left and enter the top 3. She made her name by her variety skill and fan service. Her evolution is really impressive. She could have gone back to japan and start a new career or become AKB48's face but no she choose to do it all again, from the start and challendge all her skill set. Sakura is a bad singer but damn she work hard.
Yes but there is something to say in the fact she chose to debut again in Le sserafim instead of pursuing a variety career
Being a kpop idols is more than talent, but singing and rapping (depending on the position) have to be a basic requirement.
Not everyone have to be able to delivery crazy flow of rap or incredible high notes, but just have to have basic to deliver your lines successfully.
While I agree with you I just wanted to add that Gfriend didn’t have a rapping position and they did well as a group so it’s more of singing > rapping
@@sliverhalo9286 no I mean, if you are a rapper you should be able to deliver your verse successfully and if your position is vocal just sound normal during the live stage. Not every member has to be a vocal powerhouse or fastest rapper ever depending on the position but has to be able to bring the minimum to the table. I didn't mean there has to be a rapper in the group. It is totally ok.
@@nonamenosurname6127 yes yes but rappers have to be able to deliver some vocal lines they don’t have to be main vocals they just have to be able to deliver a steady vocal
the thing is, if they are going to focus on the "untrainable" aspects of being an idol to select trainees or to select a debut lineup, this is fine. but they NEED to then train them to do the "trainable" things. sakura has literally not been trained to sing. even a half competent voice teacher should be able to get her to sing her parts without straining. it's very achieveable. but they don't do this. fans constantly defend companies for choosing the pretty one or the charismatic one or the stan attractor and so on but there is no reason y'all need to defend them for never training any of these people.
and frankly if you don't care about the fact that sakura literally can't even sing her own parts in her own songs while standing completely still, you're simply not someone who cares about music. and that's fine. but kpop is still a music industry. if you're only looking for pretty women, be a fan of a model. some of us actually care about the music, since they are music artists who sell albums. they hold concerts. they perform at coachella. if sakura can't sing she doesn't deserve to be a music artist. she can have another career where singing is not part of the requirements.
also like, when a job requires you to do multiple different things you are expected to be able to do all of them competently. no one goes around telling nurses it's ok that they don't know how to administer an injection because they are also supposed to be able to take health histories. sakura is an idol. the job is to sing and dance and be a charismatic performer. she can't sing. you don't need to defend her.
if she cant even be able to sing while standing still on an encore, then she deserves thr criticism. and this would've been somewhat justifiable from someone who is new to the industry like eunchae & kazuha, but sakura has over 10 years a musical idol. she can't even dance, admitted by herself, so you cant say she should at least go into being background dancer. if she wants to just be entertaining on screen then she should go back to being a streamer & youtuber, she was very good at that!! otherwise how are people be expected to stream songs for someone who cant even sing. it's unfair for her to even get credits for a song when everyone else is doing the hard work. kpop IS about the music, if you're not into the music your stay in the scene wont last, whether you're an artist in it or a fan.
that being said a huge part of the problem here is clearly hybe/source music. how is it that a classically trained singer like yunjin struggled while standing still?? she & chaewon were the only capable singers in that group but it's clear even they aren't getting the proper lessons to upkeep their vocals. if they have the money to hire in-house doctors then the have the money for good vocal coaches, or at least decent ones.
In the industry these days, there is just less focus and importance placed on singing and training vocals. In previous generations, there were specific positions for people "specialising" in vocals/dance/rap but it feels like they don't mind everyone being average in vocals as long as they have visuals and can dance. People were saying Le Sserafim aren't a vocally-focused group, which is fine since their songs aren't that vocally challenging and they're great performers but I think at the very least, they should be able to perform those songs live when they're standing still and not doing any choreo.
Why is everyone suddenly defending the indefensible?
What is indefensible to you about this situation?
there are so many visual+dance+rap gg members that are non-vocalists and they still serve…
I really like Sakura but you are talking bunch of nonsense my dude. Idol's job is performing on stage. They are training daily to handle stage performances.
In every other field if you are not able to do a task that you are trained to do you get fired so why are we supposed to ignore this in this particular case.
You said it yourself, she was not chosen because of her talent nor the ability to perform even during the survival show, she was chosen simply because of her popularity.
I don't hate any idols but let's be real this is their job and Sakura in particular has been an idol for almost 12 years soon.
She has had way more time to develop enough to perform on stage and sing, other idols don't have even 1/5th of that time, let's not be delusional and say as it is.
You can't defend someone that had 12 years to learn how to sing and is still unable to sing literally 2 lines in a song.
If you think that ability to sing a song is not a necessity in an idol then I have no words. This is a music industry, the least you should do is to go on stage and sing and if you can't do that then what in the world are you even doing there. If idols don't need the skills then why don't we simply have all the tiktokers as idols instead, bruv like what are you even japping about.
Honestly idc at this point im saying it, its HYBE's fault, Sakura sang SO BEAUTIFULLY in AKB48, Yumede Kiss Me live sounds so ANGELICAL its ASTONISHING knowing how she sings now, even on IZ*ONE her lines were beyond small yes but THE DELIVERY OF THE LINES? Iconic, many iconic lines in the comebacks were from Sakura its actually surprising
WHAT HAPPENED, ON LE SSERAFIM?!, WHERE DID HER VOICE WENT?
HYBE, that's the answer, literally i swear to god, HYBE's neglected on her vocal training made her regress horribly and ruin if not damage her vocal cords, making her loose the ability to even be stable, im praying and hoping she is genuenly DOING her best to get better at singing, even with the neglect
HYBE's is all at fault here, only 2/5 are great vocally and even Chaewon, THE LEAD VOCALIST ON IZ*ONE, REGRESSED, WHAT, THE HELL?, SHE GOT WORSE AT SINGING FOR WHAT REASON? IT MAKES NO SENSE
Dude even ENHYPEN, what, the fck, they could sing on the beggining, now most of them are standing on the bare line of beign stable, WHAT, IS HAPPENING ON HYBE?
Anyways im done ranting
Respectfully, I mostly disagree. Love Sakura though ❤
Who benefits from the criticism? Sakura, of course. Since I just came back from a Camryn Suzanne video so I’ll use Dua Lipa as an example of criticism helping the artist. She wasn’t criticised for putting in no effort, because people could see that Dua was a capable vocalist and she was putting in effort in demonstrating decent vocal technique, but she wasn’t putting effort in dancing and stage presence, so fans and non-fans alike criticised her for that. She took in that criticism and made an effort to improve her dancing skills, her stage presence and even stage production and when she came back with her next album, that improvement showed, fans and non-fans alike were more receptive to her. And most of all, she seemed happier being on stage knowing that fans were receiving her efforts warmly. So in the end, the criticism does benefit the artist, because the artist will be more warmly received.
On the count of kpop idols and vocals, it may seem a bit unfair to use them as an example, but Seungmin, I.N and Lee Lnow take vocal lessons outside of JYPE. I’m assuming they’ve heard the criticisms of their previously subpar vocal technique, and decided to look for lessons outside the company seeing as their fans weren’t receptive to the way JYPE handles vocal technique. The improvement showed, and fans and non-fans alike were receptive to their efforts, and they seem happier with the warm reception to their effort.
But most importantly, learning proper vocal technique can help with career longevity. Suppose Sakura wanted to pursue a solo career, or even perform just a solo song outside of Le Sserafim. Because she is not in a group, her lack of vocal skills is not as hidden. With Le Sserafim, her lack of vocal skills could be hidden behind Yunjin’s good technique. In a solo, her lack of vocal technique would be highlighted even further than it is in the group. And although she is a good performer in a group, probably because again, performing in a group shields some weaknesses because we cannot focus on just one person unless we’re actively making an effort to, once she goes solo, the weaknesses will be highlighted further. Because both her weaknesses in stage presence and vocals would be highlighted, her solo career would tank, sorry to say. She must either be exceptional when it comes to stage presence to shield her bad vocals, or must level up her vocal technique to at least subpar so that it is even (equa) to her subpar levels of stage presence. You cannot train exceptional stage presence into you, you either got it or you don’t, but you can train your vocals to a subpar level.
I think that the encores are after they performed "Easy" and stages. Look at their choreo it's INTENSE. This is why I think they should atleast train for encores where they sing immediately after performing, I believe I-LAND did this with their contestants if I'm not mistaken.
From what I’ve heard Jungkook from BTS actually went outside and hired his own vocal trainer. That’s why he sounds so good. Why can’t the company provide that for them?
I dont think we should defend idols for singing like that. We can criticize and accept the fact that she is not the best at vocals. I am not saying should be sounding exactly like studio vocals. But at least sounding okay? Not messy?
And just like Xiumin from exo said that singing talent matters more than dancing.
If we think about it, we can easily learn kpop choreos if we try hard enough..but singing is not that easy comparatively.
I am not someone who is obsessed with live vocals, i appreciate idols who are able to carry live singing. But when the idol isn't able to carry their parts properly, it does give me an ick. this is not the first time she is criticized.
But bullying idols for having bad vocals performances is not going to help. They will only feel traumatized to the point, that they couldn't sing live anymore due to the fear of voice cracks. Sakura does need vocal lessons to at least carry her lines properly. And we as fans should let them learn from their mistakes instead of bullying them.
Sakura just doesn't have the vocal cords for standard singing. Her voice is best suited for AKB style of singing, which is why she sounds better on those type of songs. But, the thing is, people take examples from _that_ and think that it's everyone's fault that Sakura isn't improving.
They go, "look how good she sings in HKT!" or "It's because of the language difference," etc, etc, etc. But no, it's just Sakura. I don't care how hard she works and all that. Saying that is just an attempt to stray off-subject and deflect in order to get people to compliment her on something.
You can get her the world's greatest vocal trainer and it's really just a waste of time. The only real thing you can MAYBE, somewhat correct is the shakiness in her voice. But, the _vocal tone,_ which makes her sound bad on songs, can't be fixed. Because that's the voice she was born with.
But, at the same time, _personally,_ I feel that she doesn't put in the effort as much either. It seems like she put more effort in honing her crocheting skills than actually trying to improve her vocals. Her crochet skills have exponentially improved in a very short time. But, there's zero improvement in her vocals for the past 2 years, since debut. And, that's disappointing for fans that hope for SOME noticeable vocal improvement in every comeback.
Even if you look at her Korean skills. Yes, I will say that her vocabulary range is starting to get better after moving in with Eunchae. *BUT,* her _pronunciation_ has stayed exactly the same since IZONE. I mean, she said on Weverse Live, that she does pronunciation practice every single day for a hour. Even on 'Fearless Kkura', she said that she _really_ wanted to improve her pronunciation. But, no noticeable improvement on that either.
Gonna be honest this just reads like a mean spirited comment to me... I know you're trying to justify why she doesn't seem hard working to you, but I feel like that criticism of her pronunciation when she's literally a foreigner was honestly unneeded in a conversation about her vocal skills. And god forbid she have hobbies (knitting/crocheting) outside of what she does for work (singing and dancing). And it's evidence that she's not working hard enough to you? I would think that her making clothes for her stages IS evidence that she's working hard, and even trying to compensate for what she may lack in certain areas as an idol by bringing other things to lsrfm.
edit: and if you think that having a vocal trainer isn't enough to improve her voice, then isn't something like making clothes exactly what she would need to do to prove herself?
Furthermore, to say that it's her "tone" that makes her "sound bad" in songs doesn't even make sense to me. What people are criticizing about is that her voice is unstable or off-key on stage with no backtrack, not that they think her vocals on studio versions of their songs are bad. So that also just feels immensely mean spirited to me.
I don't expect you to change your opinion or redact your comment or whatever but I feel it bears mentioning.
@@finleyy You only take it as "mean spirited" because you want sugar coated criticism. I'm simply more straightforward.
And being a foreigner doesn't mean anything. Kazuha is also a foreigner and has been in Korea for barely 2 years. And yet, her pronunciation and proficiency is already far better than Sakura, who's been in Korea for 6 years now. That's disappointing to see when Sakura says she practices every day for an hour.
Only conclusion I can come up with is, she's not putting in the effort to properly learn the language. Kazuha said one of her goals is to master the Korean language and she's showing clear results. Sakura said, almost exactly one year ago on 'Fearless Kkura' DJ episode, that she REALLY wants to improve on pronunciation. But, no improvement, whatsoever. That's just the reality of it. I'm not hating on her.
And what does making clothes have to do with anything to prove herself? That makes no sense. That only "proves" that she's putting more effort into crocheting over something that matters more.
And what doesn't make sense about vocal tone? It's one aspect of her voice. Her voice stands out in a bad way and sounds out of place, because of the way it sounds. And as I've mentioned, Sakura's type of voice fits best with AKB style of music. She sounds much better on those songs and doesn't sound out of place as she does on LSF songs.
One thing I've noticed is that although Hybe right now has some of the most talented people in their groups, the vocal abilities of the idols is questioned a lot, which makes you wonder, why doesn't the main agency make time for them to recieve actual vocals lessons of they can plan so much concerts and tours and performances.
Like, if it's earning money, it's fine to overwork the idol but not for improving their talent (which does not give immediate gratification) ?
Sakura has been in the industry for 13 years, and has only been a part of hybe for barely half of it. If anyone needs to receive the criticism it’s Sakura. People tend to baby kpop idols and find every way to protect them when their singing skills come into question. I don’t care what the kpop industry likes to go after, the everyday person is the one listening to the songs, & watching the performances. And she wanted to join an idol group with subpar vocals that haven’t improved much, why should people hold back on giving constructive criticism (not excusing hate).
I think people are free to criticize an idol's vocals if that is something that is important to them. I like more performance-oriented groups but I'd still want the idols to be able to sing their own lines. The criticism I have seen for Sakura, though some of it is genuine, most of it is not done with good intentions. Sakura has been an idol since she was 13. She is almost 26. When people say she shouldn't have been an idol I don't think they realize that is her whole life.
And I don't think it's as simple as taking a vocal lesson. Vocal lessons have to be regular and consistent. Sakura and Chaewon mentioned recently that they haven't gotten a break since debut. The girls did mention having vocal lessons from the company but we all question how effective these lessons are. Even if they were, the need to be a match to what the girls are expected to do in their own songs. TWICE Jihyo talked about how she struggled in the beginning of their career because she was trained to sing American pop songs but then had to sing in a cutesy tone to match the group's cute concept. Easy in particular have terrible vocal direction; they have to talk-sing in this incredibly flat tone and I wasn't expecting to sound good live even before that encore. We know Yunjin and Chaewon are pretty good singers but even they weren't sounding great.
You make pretty much the point which I have been thinking about in the wake of this. It's interesting that the narrative of "this group can't sing" is the mainstream one, when as far as I can tell LS is one of the few out there actually making an effort to promote their releases with live singing. I could be wrong, but those Vevo performances they released certainly sound live to me. I'm not claiming LS are the best singers out there, but honestly I can appreciate the effort and improvement.
Of course, I enjoy it when an idol can sing, and it makes me respect their skills, especially if they get to show off that skill. It's a shame that even groups who have proven their vocal abilities, like most SM groups, don't really get to have a ton of opportunities to have actual live performances anymore. Even SM town concerts are a mix of live and lipsync, mostly the latter. Does the idols' vocal ability matter anymore if we never get to enjoy it?
Edit: thought about this a little more and want to make the counterpoint to my own comment that going against the grain and investing time and effort into more training could have great returns. Hearing or seeing genuine improvement in an idol's skillset is not only a show of commitment or improved skill, but also has the potential to make the idol even more popular. And I'd argue that such popularity would be on a healthier base than before.
Lsf vevo performances are edited. It’s fine, every kpop group has their vocals edited in official content. When it comes to the newer gen, there’s nmixx, itzy, stray kids, txt ateez, stayc, maybe g idle who are more consistent in live performances.
Most "live" performances nowadays are heavily edited
I just don’t like lesserafim response to it. Hiding being the recorders and then singing an encore with a prerecorded track. Obviously they work hard on their looks and dancing - why not focus on vocals. Momo from twice figured it out
I see no excuse for someone to have zero ability in the trainable skills OF THEIR JOB
Also this issue is bigger than just Sakura. Imho, the root of the issue is the consumers. Companies have zero reason to invest in skill if the fans not only don't care abt it, but also defend the absensce of skill when there's criticism.
Also as someone who learned to aing from having literally zero ability. The very basics of singing r not hard to acquire. And the basics r below the bare minimum in terms of standards for most people who care abt singing.
Imo, idols need to at least have basic singing, dancing and performing abilites. None of those r a big task to achieve, especially for a dedicated individual.
Idols like Sakura getting a pass r just a massive slap in the face to all the trainees that were sold the lie that being an idol has anything to do with skill or talent. So much time and money wasted. So much unnecessary stress.
I personally find the overall skill level of gen4 idols to be genuinely disgraceful. Imo, jumping at individual idols is useless as hell, and most of my rage goes out to fans who just blindly support and DEFEND mediocrity (you are not included in this category tho. You actually do put in proper tought before taking a stance and I fully respect that).
I see your points, and I agree with most of them, but I’d also argue that kpop not being an industry “that has anything to do with skill or talent” is why we’re having this conversation in the first place -
It’s observable that kpop companies do not have much of a preference to talent and skill, so much as it prefers individuals who can sell a product the best in the end. I’m not saying I agree with this, and I can see how demoralizing it can be for singers and performers, but I think in the end, music is just a convenient medium for the idol industry at large - idols are the primary product in this whole process
Yunjin finishing 26th on Produce 48, as well as produce’s entire rigging scandal, shows very plainly that kpop is not an industry that aims to showcase raw talent. Produce is just one example, but we see this in every kpop company that has shown behind the scenes of group formation processes
I blame hybe. Sakura getting hate is sad because its been years that she's getting hate. Hybe doesn't care quality is the problem. They don't care enough to give us quality idols or help them improve. They need to atleast have their idols be decent in terms of skills. Sakura isn't the only idols tho and not the only one in the group. Kazuha and eunchae aren't doing any better. Alot of idols clearing need to improve. Some do slowly some doesn't. But the problem i have with kura is the fact that she clearing cares to the point that she asked for less line. And that's where hybe should have gotten her vocal training. She seems to want to improve. Criticism should be directed to the company not her. She never got that vocal training and in iz"one there were 12 members and hyewon had all the criticism on her. I hope sakura doesn't let it affect her. And i hope she knows she does contribute to the group. And vocals are her only lack.
aint nothing wrong if an idol’s vocals are barely average but i need them to at least hold a note consistently and if they can’t, stop giving them lines! just let them preform!
im tired of seeing people make up excuses for idols who have been in the industry for years and cant sing to save their life. if an idol cant even sing while standing still, whats the point? im saying this as a twice fan btw, half of the ladies there are barely average singers.
so im not hating any group in particular, but i believe our standards should be higher vocal wise. idol dance skils and their choreos have high expectations, why aren’t we allowed to expect the same for vocals?
Agree. It’s mostly about the total idol package. The hate towards idols who underperform on one particular aspect of the job is almost becoming a cliche: hate being whipped up because that’s what stans or antis should be doing. The amount of truly artistic allrounders has never been high. Pop is not supposed to be art anyway.
I agree with your point BUT kpop is still a music genre at the end of the day? And nobody wants to hear terrible singing. I think it should be first and foremost about vocal training in kpop
I would say that idol work is more similar to what "Geisha" used to be like.
It's very different than singers, kpop companies use music as one of the means to make money from fans, but they are willing to do anything, which means an idol's job is essentially to please fans no matter what. .
I have one question do they say she cant sing or cant Perform at all because she cant sing but saying she cant Perform is kind of not true
I totally agree. People are complaining because they personally don't like that Sakura is successful without appealing to what they look for in an idol. And then they're showing that they're willing to bully her out of the industry to uphold their sacred "standards".
They can obscure that fact by deflecting attention towards Hybe, but at the end of the day any talk of upholding standards necessitates running people out of the industry using negativity should they fail to meet them.
It's ridiculous how people are doing this so soon after there was a huge outpouring of support for Lia. It's like we can only see idols as human after their struggles are exposed and undeniable. It sucks that it comes to that.
i think people being straight up disrespectful are definitely wrong, but criticism has its place. as much as i’m sure sakura is trying, and asking for less lines, it’s still disappointing seeing how little skill she has in both singing AND dancing. she is the weakest dancer in the group. thats not to say she’s bringing them down or anything but she is extremely average. her singing is her main downfall. it’s not that she can’t sing and dance at the same time, it’s that she can’t sing in the first place. she’s tone deaf, shaky and her vocal tone is not enjoyable. this is not to say she can’t be trained to sing better i do believe she has the potential to be a lot better, it’s just that she’s not. and for someone who’s been in the industry as long as her it’s not unreasonable to expect her to improve. i don’t want to say she has pretty privilege because that would be discounting her charm and variety skill, but she also does not rap so all she’s really bringing to the table is personality. if groups still had positions like in 3rd gen she would not be placed as main or lead in any categories. at best she would be a sub vocalist but even then that doesn’t feel correct. i love sakura as a person and as a celebrity, but as an idol she has a long way to go
I get what you are saying about the industry not being about talent and hasn't been for a long time, but people will be people. Most people who get into K-pop love talking about two things "their favs music" and "how talented/skilled their favs are." When people see someone radiating confidence and passion on stage, they will talk about thag person in a good way, and some may even be critical and point out how they can be better. However, this also is the same for the opposite. If someone is radiating hesitation, a lack of self-confidence, or doubt on stage, people will point that out and critize it, and some even will send hate to them because they can.
This is the internet there is no holding back when it comes to commenting because we are anonymous, and most people will usually say the first things that pop into their head.
There are plenty of people who want to see Sakura improve her vocal abilities since they know she is a hard worker and has improved so much from her time. Produce 48 all the way to Lesserafim. So most of her fans do know she is a good performer, but most K-pop stans and causal listeners will always expect more and will always want more from idols and want to see them improve in all aspects. Since, Kpop markets itself as having idols who can sing, dance, and perform all at the same time.
I usually see most people harshly criticize her and send hate comments to her because of her vocals, which are never warranted. However, I also do see a few respectful criticism comments about her vocals and hoping she improves. Again, why do people comment? Well, because they want their feelings to be heard and what better place to do that than the internet.
Wasnt there this older idols in an interview who said in a girlgroup its more important to be able to hide the areas where you lack instead of being the best at singing or something like that? This is what I thought of when I saw this. People said that was nonesense but it is true
I'm Sakura fan since HKT48, and she should be improve in vocals for her own sake, there is no excuses, 13 years in this and the actual Sakura is only focused on knitting hobby and buy Louis Vuitton stuff, and not counting the facial surgeries she had made (if you are a real Sakura fan you are realizing of that, like or not), for an idol jumping from Jpop idol to Kpop industry she could at least improve vocals NOW, on Hybe, even Kazuha can stand a simple note on EASY and is not a difficult vocal song, I'm also a pianista and believe me, EASY is EASY vocals, not excuses: Sakura needs to take vocal lessons, is her job, not knitting, and I remark: I'm a Sakura fan.
Im ngl, a lot of fearnots are coddling her . I am tired of the excuses that they make for her but not her ever going difficulty with live vocals. Its annoying seeing people speak for her and say “oh this and that is why she doesnt sound good” or “she sounds fine” which isnt objectively true. People have the right to criticize a performer whos role is to not only give a good stage performance with dancing, but also singing if their roles dont call for rapping. I genuinely hope hybe gets better vocal teachers cuz sumthinf isnt adding up. This is not to say that sakura is a bad idol because she is NOT. Sakura has continuously been an amazing performer but singing isnt her strength and thats okay to admit. That doesnt mean we should settle for mediocrity and we should use more encouraging, positive feedback so she can improve because i really think she can improve.
I think at the end of the day it’s HYBE that needs to hear it the most, but I just wonder what Sakura actually makes of this criticism and what she wants to do about it. I think about stories I’ve heard about artists like Taemin, who took all the criticism he got for bad vocals and used it as fuel to prove that he is capable of improvement. But SM, for all their faults, at least knows how to train a vocalist. For all we know, she has asked HYBE for more training and since they won’t take it seriously, she asks for less lines.
I do see where you’re coming from. You’re meeting Sakura and the industry where they are at right now and recognizing what she brings to the table outside of vocal ability. I think the sentiment I agree most with in the comments is the hope that this type of criticism will force companies to realize that we actually do care about vocal talent and ability just as much as the rest of it. The physical and visual aspects of the genre have clearly come so far, but I’m tired of seeing groups struggle through choreo that only a trained broadway professional could perform well, with little to none of the training required to be able to do so.
As a fearnots and Sakura biased, the one who disappoints me the most is HYBE and Source Music. The girls have talent and definitely CAN get better. All of them have potential to grow in a vocal sense. Bc as a fan I've seen how they improved in dancing and performing. The 5 girls are hard working people, but if their own company doesn't give them the push and the help to get better at singing what can they do. I love Sakura and I have been a fan of hers since produce 48, over the years she lost her confidence in singing, and it's all bc of kpop fans constante hate and bullying. So the problem here is the company and the people bullying them non stop. I know my girls can get better, they just don't have the correct support sistem.
I think it's valid to criticize talent or lack thereof in kpop. Clearly the industry has shifted to a more visual heavy one. Other groups who aren't vocal powerhouses make up for it in live performances, and that works out well. While others still aren't great performers but their vocals make up for it. Overall music is supposed to be a listening experience. We buy and stream to listen to them, not to hear the squeaking or clacking of their shoes. Then you have the small but new wave of western girl groups and boy groups and the difference is stark. Take Flo for example, man those girls can absolutely SING and have such a lovely stage presence. If you want to cater to a western audience, then you must have talent to make it. I think the main reason why kpop hasn't broken that barrier is because the groups being pushed to the west are quite frankly not good at singing, and fans know this. This is why they call them out publicly because the fans don't want to be embarrassed.
sakura rent free in yall head
I understand people don't have malicious intent, but regardless of how constructive they're being I feel like they don't understand they are still making said idol a target. If people want to send a message to the company in hopes of improving the training system, I don't think targeting Sakura or any other idol will be productive at all.
I think this topic requires understanding the nuances of what makes someone an idol, bc I feel like these days alot of people seem to give the word and the job 'idol' additional weight to it that it didn't always have. The meaning of it gets a bit lost and suddenly everyone has their own requirements for what an idol's capabilities should be.
I think you're bringing in a very healthy perspective on this. People make it seem like this has an easy solution when in reality there's multiple factors they don't seem to consider.
So according to you, there should be no criticisms at all in k-pop since the industry doesn't focus on talent & skills?
Then by that logic, are we allowed to criticize idols' visuals since the industry clearly focuses on that?
Yeah you are a scorned Sakura & lsf fan even though you're refusing to admit it.
At several points throughout the video, I emphasized how I don’t condemn anybody for being critical of idols’ talents or for not appreciating a group for a lack of ability. I think it’s completely understandable to hold critical opinions about performance in kpop, as that is a large component to the overall product
I even said that I would *completely* understand criticism in certain situations, such as idols who give no energy to their performances, so I’m not sure why you’ve come to this conclusion?
I could equally accuse you of being an over zealous Sakura or Le Sserafim hater - this is not an effective way to have a discussion
@@choujimi bro why you so sensitive? What in my comment indicates I'm a hater? I didn't make & post a whole video ranting to people to go criticize lsf? I just asked you a simple question. If the industry doesn't care about "skills" so there's no point of criticising that, then would it be ethical to criticize idols' visuals since outer beauty is such a big deal there? But I guess fanboys don't use much logic as long as there favs are not getting dragged.
@@ABIGAIListhis95 I didn’t mean to come off as sensitive, I just didn’t agree with how you represented me in your argument
I didn’t say idols should never be criticized for talent, yet that is what you claim I said as the basis for your argument. Am I not allowed to push back on that? 😭
If you know Sakura you know she can’t sing, Sakura is just never going to be a vocalist the end of the day. Even her speaking voice has trembling in it. And the problem with that is why would you put someone with that little to no vocal ability in a singing group?
I mean they make music with their voice right? Not with their dancing skills or performance skills or am I wrong? You are recording music with you’re voice and put that out to have people enjoy you’re songs so I’m not really seeing you’re point here… criticism is definitely necessary but hate is not, you see constructive criticism is always welcome especially when you’re in the music industry.
It helps you get better and see you’re flaws however idols aren’t perfect obviously but I don’t think fans or listeners are asking much? Isn’t it the whole point of being a singer that you can sing? You don’t have to sound like Mariah Carey or anything but just singing something without cracking or trembling you’re voice isn’t much to ask for…
This kinda applies to Kazuha and eunchae too but with them it’s not as bad as it is with Sakura.
However since Sakura is popular and liked she definitely brings viewers and money to the table so is she needed? Yes. Would that be the case if she wasn’t popular? Absolutely not. Sakura has made a name for herself and has a likeable personality that’s what she brings to the group and that’s okay if you’re not a listener.
LOLLL I WROTE ALOOOTTR (this isn’t meant to be hateful or spark hate against her but just my stand on it. I don’t necessarily stan lesserafim but I have a liking towards them and I’m a fan of urs😭)
ARIANA WHAT R U DOING HERE
@@bbi2.052 BBIBBIII GIRL NAWT YOU SEEING ME BE ALL SERIOUS🤪
@@bp-u-will-always-be-famous SLAYY THO U ATE THAT 😻
@@bbi2.052 NAURRRR I THINK IT WAS TEW MEANNN
@@bp-u-will-always-be-famous OK SELF AWARE KWEEN
"she sounded bad during encore" if you performed a 2 hour long show with full choreo, would you be able to stay in key for the last song when ur out of breath? especially when theyre put on strict diets too, with barely enough calories in a day to do a performance that physical, would u be able to hold a note? would your vocals still be as stable as there were at the beginning of the show during the first song? the answer is probably fucking not. her lack of vocal training is not her fault, as it is her company's responsibility to notice her mistakes to help her and schedule lessons for her. she has already expressed concern and insecurity of her own vocals. she already KNOWS she needs improvement. and imo, ive already noticed a great deal of improvement from coachella forward. compared to her debut in ssera, shes gotten way more stable. clearly she knows her vocals are lackluster, and she has verbally expressed that shes working to fix it. give her time. repeating the same complaints over and over when she already knows what she needs to improve on and has already acknowledged the criticism; it stops being advice/criticism and it becomes harassment. and if ur gonna bring up sakura's vocals, lets talk about yunjin belting incorrectly and how that will ruin her voice in the future. it seems that hybe doesnt give proper vocal training to anyone in their group. i can hear her throat strain during multiple encores. which is also understandable and im not attacking her whatsoever. just making a point that its not just sakura who gets neglected.
This is such a bad defense because you are acting like we are asking for the impossible when dozens upon dozens of idols have proven that it is totally possible to sound great during encores.
Do you think that the people who vote for and hype up idols for their visuals only, can also be the ones that then criticize them when they're not a good singer ? I'm not sure.
chojimi, I love you (as a k-tuber of course) but I can't lie. Sakura is a bad singer :( we criticize her so that she can get better. It's been nearly 13 years of her being an idol, and she still can't sing.
Yeah the “ you shouldn’t criticize her because she’s obvious trying “ point is just ???? Like yeah a singer can’t sing people will talk about it, this is not about demanding her to be Beyoncé but being able to hold a tune, she can bring something to the group and yet be criticized by not being able to sing
@@el972I don’t think that’s what he meant at all, what the criticism boils down to just being that Sakura doesn’t add anything to the group just because she’s not good vocally. We know she isn’t a good singer at all and he’s not trying to say that we can’t criticize her for it. It’s just that people turn this into Sakura being a useless member
And the argument that she shouldn’t have to improve because the industry isn’t always focused on talent is an odd point to make. If an idol is already underwhelming as anything (a vocalist, dancer, performer, whatever), they shouldn’t be expected to stay stagnant just because the industry allows it - it feels disingenuous somehow, especially if the idol has had this role for over a decade.
@@Pineconeong the thing is I don’t think I saw a lot of people saying she’s an useless member ? Maybe it’s my side of the internet, but it read more like a fear of her being seen like the useless one
@@el972 I did not say she shouldn’t be criticized because she’s trying. I really tried to emphasize every couple of points in the video that I don’t condemn people for *personally* criticizing her vocal ability, or for wanting her to improve
Agreed. But the contrats between studio and live is very evident, and le sserafim hardly do live so isnt suprising that it call attention.
It isnt that bad of a performance. But having the 'pro' idol attached to it makes one wonder about the values of the group / company and the " insinserity/ mask fell of an actor" feeling.
There are plenty of poor techinicaly singer in all generes , but at least we are used to what they actually can do + autotune, not just studio version. And being good techinically dosent garanty engaging music. And the mith of merithocracy crumbles for many with this.
Yes she brings a lot of value to the group and in her position. Am a fan.
What I dont get much in the kpop culture is the necessity of some people to try to drag the other down like with sport teams rivality culture, that I also dosent get but am used to it.
My only theory is the wins in tv shows gamefy this type of thinking.
and the target audience of younger people that need to defend their building personality in teenager years against the judgement of others. + the parasocial of " fake friends" / " ideal love interrest" / " celebrety crush".
I like the video, however, kpop idols are artists as they perform the "art" in question (which in this csse is the music they either write or are given).
Other than that, brilliant video, but I still expect that people, whose careers involve singing/rapping on a regular basis, can decently sing/rap. But that's just me
The criticism isn’t to benefit Sakura or Lesserafim it’s to make people not support the group and to sabotage their career
Everyone saying „We just criticising, they are idols after all“ when they do is put Sakura down and then you guys wonder why some idols have to take a hiatus. You can have a serious impact on others self esteem and mental health just over a one lacking performance after they WON. just celebrate ffs
I couldnt give a crap what they sound like on a music show. I watch a music show performance to see them dance. I listen to the album to hear them sing.
Edit: im adding more lol. Honestly i dont care if youre not a great singer, you can still make music. There are a ton of amazing artists and performers who have voices that divide people, that many say do not sound good. M shadows, conor oberst, lenny kilmeister. These are still celebrated musical artists. All that matters is they make good music.
I still don't see what did sakura do wrong 🤷🤷🤷 she did her part as well as you can her voice didn't crack her rapping was well she hit the notes right soo I don't understand all the hate especially this amount of hate it's actually crazy 🤷
I forget where I read this recently but I cant get the thought out of my brain now...the discourse surrounding Sakura and Le Sserafim as a whole group feels eerily similar to the discourse surrounding Lia and Itzy. Both girls are far from bringing their group down so seeing these kind of "constructive" criticisms really boils my blood.
Lia kept up with all of itzys dances. Her dancing was never noticeably bad in group performances. Sakura is more comparable to Jennie, who was noticeably throwing off the performance when she didn’t put in effort. Or momo who got almost the exact same criticisms as Sakura. Lia wasn’t even getting as much dance criticisms around the time she went on hiatus. Last year the main criticism was on itzys music flopping. Are yall holding back on criticism because you’re afraid of idols going on hiatus?
for me, kpop stans have already mass hated her for her singing skills before which she has admitted herself is her weak point. now what? are y'all going to continue to hate her every single time she demonstrates that she can't sing that well? what exactly is the endpoint? do we want her kicked out of lesserafim or depressed from all the hate? if she can't sing and you value singing ability then keep it pushing and don't stan but the hate just tells me that kpop stans, as usual, are vile and love to dogpile onto idols.