I know this channel mostly speaks to the studio people...but I wish there were more tips to guys that have killer systems but are making the best out of spaces serving double duty listening/living. That means we have glass. And for us urban inner city apartment guys, lots of it. Can't get rid of the stereo and love fidelity!
M, The issue with living/listening spaces is clutter. There are many objects that get in the way of the creation of a proper sound field. Most individuals we deal with are not willing to treat the room or minimize the clutter. Therefore, they live in a room with very compromised sound quality.
@@AcousticFields Please give some examples of clutter. Are we talking ottoman or coffee table in the middle of the listening space, or tomb-like Steve Guttenberg NYC apartment clutter? There should be a book, and there probably is, catering to guys with expensive rigs and living in it. I guess it wouldn't be much of a story. Only so much that can be accomplished.
M, Yes, anything that can cause a spurious reflection. Remember that two-channel sound quality is all about a balance between the direct energy from the speakers and the reflections from the walls. These two variables are difficult enough to achieve without adding coffee tables, lamps, etc.
@@AcousticFields I'm sorry Buddy, but I love music, I love good quality audio. I've spent a shit ton of money achieving my musical goals and I'm not thru yet. I know different people have different tastes, different goals, and a different way of viewing things. I respect your knowledge in this area, I do. However, and I'm sure I am not the only one to feel this way nor say it, But you seriously take (even while I am in full on serious mode) all the fun rite out of it. The proper listening field is where it is set up 'well' and it sounds amazing. But most of all, its a place where the listener can be comfortable and happy so that he/she may truly "Enjoy" it. I understand what you're saying is important, but do you have to be so uptight about it?Do you have to act like your way is the only rite way and doing any otherwise is incorrect? Must you make everyone else on youtube Ya know you could be teaching people things, keeping audiophilia alive, Making a friendly suggestion without the belittling. leaving your permanent marks on the wall, etc. ALL WHILE ACTUALLY BEING PLEASANT??!?!
@@blackie502 Everyone has to make compromises. Unfortunately, there is no compromise when it comes to glass surfaces. They must be treated and covered to avoid reflections and to keep them from going diaphragmatic. If you take the same room size with windows or glass and without, you will quickly realize the negative impact on sound quality.
Liked the video as my heart o' glass was shattering! My home studio room is 7' wide by 15 ft. long, about 9 ft. high. have a window on the short wall I'm against, a couple feet behind the speakers. Built six 6" 2' x 4' Owens Corning 703 panels... two behind speakers in corners, two more on each side of me... If I am not doing a build, and this space is my ONLY option... what can I do besides weep? Thanks for the videos! Love your approach, even if it's all bad news for me :)
S, The technology you built will not address low-frequency issues. This is a common mistake people make. Glass is the worst surface area you can have in any audio room where critical listening is a requirement.
You can easy solve the problem with vibrations in windows but the problem with reflections will still be there. The solution is to mount Acryllic as the very inner window . ( without touching the glass and with at least 3 inch gap between acryllic and glass ) For this to actually work the acryllic must NOT be less than 2 inch in thickness . Remember acryllic is even used to build loudspeaker cabinet and if thick enough they wont move . ( you do still need damping meterial inside the loudspeaker to tame the reflections and standing waves and thus the whole idea behind transperent loudspeakers is not so good in reality ) But as a solution to get rid of vibrations in windows it's a pretty good solution . Sadly there is neither any damping nor absorption in this material and as i said reflection will still be there . ( everything below 5000 hz is unaffected and this is usually where our problems reside ) But to stop vibration from a smaller window its great . As we know the bigger the window the bigger the problem so better have one or two very small windows as those can be ' tamed ' in therms of vibrations . ( best is NO windows at all , yes that works best ) As an example is a control room in a studio where you have a window into the instrument room . This window is angled slightly between bottom and top and in the best solutions is used 3 layers of vacuum insulated glass at a resonable thickness . To further add to the preventing vibrations an acryllic ( or layered ) in both sides . It's working nice in a situation where you must have a kind of a window . Remember in a controll room the window is almost always placed behind the mixing desk and actually behind the studio monitors . This is actually working and the layout of the damping and absorption in the controll room compensate enough that it's not affecting the sound quality at all when listen and working . ( not really noticable thus you can measure it if you want to but it's minimal ) If done correctly it's working great and remember some of the best studios in the world still have glass / window behind the control / mixing desk and speakers . Edit - Thanks for as always a very informative video .
@@AcousticFields Thats true and over time it also fade slightly in transparency depending of the quality . But it's working and it's the most important . Also in a studio when it's behind the mixing desk it's pretty protected from scratches . : )
You mention in the video it’d be better to put any glass in the ceiling for natural light purposes. I’d like to know where you’d put this in relation to the speakers and the listening position and where you’d put treatment on the ceiling also. Thanks :)
Hey Dennis, Have you ever tried (in attempts to modify/cure existing glass) sticking a Sorbothane puck on a window to dampen it? I reckon results would vary, depending on the glass, in terms of resultant vibration of the glass... I have another question, Does Activated Carbon in a non enclosed cabinet situation? and, How do you keep your diaphragmatic absorbers from becoming a speaker themselves?
B, Low-frequency energy that travels in large and long waves, strikes glass windows and causes them to go "diaphragmatic". This movement can easily be determined by placing an accelerometer on the glass and measuring audibility thresholds. You must isolate the wave from striking the glass. A puck here or there will not have the desired and measurable impact. Our diaphragmatic absorbers are absorbers by definition. Study the formula for DA to assist you with this.
Good information. But it's not real world for most humans who live with comprimises. In my case, the views from my dedicated listening room are spectacular. I need a compromise. I have a (not very scientific) plan to incorporate clear sheet vinyl into my room: Diffusion around the windows and a cavity over the windows covered by clear vinyl. The material is fairly soft and flexible. Any thoughts or suggestions? At night I'm currently covering the windows with triple honeycomb shades and wooden venetian blinds. I know. Doesn't help the low frequencies....
R, These are all tactics with no strategy. What are your listening objectives? Why are you using vinyl and placing diffusers "around" a window? Achieving good sound quality is the end result of doing a lot of little things correctly but more importantly in the correct order.
Hi Dennis! I have heard you many times talking about distance between speakers and front wall. Recently I found an interesting article about that: arqen.com/acoustics-101/speaker-placement-boundary-interference/ Since a low-shelf increase is easier to compensate with EQ than a comb filter, what do you think about placing the speakers as close as posible to a treated front wall? Thank you from Spain, love your channel!
Like many other folks, I have a large piece of 55" diagonal glass between my stereo speakers. It is a television of course. My question is, about how far back from the front of the 2 stereo speaker cabinets/boxes should it be? I know it is better not to have it at all for audio reasons, but this is a dual purpose arrangement. I would think that the tv should not be flush with the speaker cabinet if my speakers are in fairly close proximity to the tv itself. I have my speakers currently set up about 1.5 feet from the front wall, and the tv about mid-point. With this non-ideal arrangement, in your experience, is there anything to be improved by moving the tv further back against the wall, or more forward towards the speaker cabinets? My own 5-minute hearing test seems so far to be inconclusive. Thanks for the videos. I just recently discovered your channel and company in the last two weeks and I have been binge-watching all your past videos. :)
66, Always keep your speakers away from any room boundary surfaces. The exact position depends on many variables. It is best to experiment with different positions to find a presentation value that suits your personal preferences.
Hey dude, I have messed extensively with a similar issue. This is what I have found. First, if the rest of the space is not properly or at least half properly acoustically treated then you will likely have a really hard time picking out the differences moving the TV makes, due to the vast scale of the acoustical soup going on. So, what I have found... No TV, best, obviously. TV glass flush with the front face of the floor standing speakers, Best for when watching TV and it just sitting there untreated (in a bit...)- negatives- it flattens the sound stage by maybe 80%, but if the TV is flush with the speakers, they are not reflecting off the glass directly, sound quality can remain pretty solid. TV half way back to wall (say 6" back from speaker plane)(my speakers are 30" from wall, but TV only goes half that distance due to stand)- worst- TV is close enough to get solid reflections making a mess of the sound at the listening position. last option, TV back to (still 15-18" from wall surface)- slightly better, but still not at all good... SO____ I took some rockwool that I had left from making absorbers, and a 14" serrated carving knife and sliced off /15~1/4 depth slices and covered them up into absorbers and made little hangers for them that attach to the TV.. this makes absorbers thick enough to capture the upper mids and highs that are the biggest issue. This is almost as good at taking the TV out, but that thing weight 70 pounds... and the cart it's on is only for going back and forth 12 inches (other stuff on it). All that said, the TV only became an issue again after I had done the whole room... and decided to wonder why I didn't have 3d stereo... it's the TV blocking the back of the sound stage...
@@bc527c thanks for sharing your experimentations. Since then I am now trying the speakers much further away from the wall, 3 feet. When only listening to music I am trying out some foam padding to put directly over/in front of the tv surface. I put some also on the wall directly behind the speakers. It helps a bit, but the differences still seem kind of minor. There are probably other things in the room with greater effect.
I never had much results with foam, especially non acoustic specific foam, not that I have tried that... to expensive. Try a wool or cotton blanket, just to see... if you have one of those old school 'flannel' sleeping bags... those things really suck up sound... just to test to see if a difference stands out. Like I said, the rest of your room might be a much much bigger set of issues.
J, Ceiling surface areas are critical in live and control rooms. The materials and acoustic treatment are critical in both usages. If the skylight is behind the listening position then it can be treated. If it is between the speakers and listening position, then it must be treated with sound diffusion or sound absorption.
@@AcousticFields Thanks for the reply! Would you still be able to get natural light in the room with a treated skylight? Again this is purely hypothetical as I don't have one in my room, I've just always been curious about the best way to get natural light into control rooms without sacrificing too much of the quality of the monitoring environment.
At the listening stage (end user) I prefer to keep the sound as natural as possible and relations/vibrations is a part of natural life/live sound .. IMO. I'm also a car audio enthusiast .. so unlike rooms, glass is an even bigger consideration, but few people fascinate around it. Unless you wanna do 65mph with no windshield, glass is pretty much an essential.
T, Yes, in-car audio, it is not for discussion, it is a given in the final sonic equation but that said it can be used to work with proper rates, levels, and square footage of absorption. I will be doing a video series on a 3-year audio project using our foam, carbon, and diffusion technology. I would appreciate your input.
I know this channel mostly speaks to the studio people...but I wish there were more tips to guys that have killer systems but are making the best out of spaces serving double duty listening/living. That means we have glass. And for us urban inner city apartment guys, lots of it. Can't get rid of the stereo and love fidelity!
M, The issue with living/listening spaces is clutter. There are many objects that get in the way of the creation of a proper sound field. Most individuals we deal with are not willing to treat the room or minimize the clutter. Therefore, they live in a room with very compromised sound quality.
@@AcousticFields Please give some examples of clutter. Are we talking ottoman or coffee table in the middle of the listening space, or tomb-like Steve Guttenberg NYC apartment clutter? There should be a book, and there probably is, catering to guys with expensive rigs and living in it. I guess it wouldn't be much of a story. Only so much that can be accomplished.
M, Yes, anything that can cause a spurious reflection. Remember that two-channel sound quality is all about a balance between the direct energy from the speakers and the reflections from the walls. These two variables are difficult enough to achieve without adding coffee tables, lamps, etc.
@@AcousticFields I'm sorry Buddy, but I love music, I love good quality audio. I've spent a shit ton of money achieving my musical goals and I'm not thru yet. I know different people have different tastes, different goals, and a different way of viewing things. I respect your knowledge in this area, I do. However, and I'm sure I am not the only one to feel this way nor say it, But you seriously take (even while I am in full on serious mode) all the fun rite out of it. The proper listening field is where it is set up 'well' and it sounds amazing. But most of all, its a place where the listener can be comfortable and happy so that he/she may truly "Enjoy" it. I understand what you're saying is important, but do you have to be so uptight about it?Do you have to act like your way is the only rite way and doing any otherwise is incorrect? Must you make everyone else on youtube Ya know you could be teaching people things, keeping audiophilia alive, Making a friendly suggestion without the belittling. leaving your permanent marks on the wall, etc. ALL WHILE ACTUALLY BEING PLEASANT??!?!
@@blackie502 Everyone has to make compromises. Unfortunately, there is no compromise when it comes to glass surfaces. They must be treated and covered to avoid reflections and to keep them from going diaphragmatic. If you take the same room size with windows or glass and without, you will quickly realize the negative impact on sound quality.
Liked the video as my heart o' glass was shattering! My home studio room is 7' wide by 15 ft. long, about 9 ft. high. have a window on the short wall I'm against, a couple feet behind the speakers. Built six 6" 2' x 4' Owens Corning 703 panels... two behind speakers in corners, two more on each side of me... If I am not doing a build, and this space is my ONLY option... what can I do besides weep? Thanks for the videos! Love your approach, even if it's all bad news for me :)
S, The technology you built will not address low-frequency issues. This is a common mistake people make. Glass is the worst surface area you can have in any audio room where critical listening is a requirement.
You can easy solve the problem with vibrations in windows but the problem with reflections will still be there.
The solution is to mount Acryllic as the very inner window .
( without touching the glass and with at least 3 inch gap between acryllic and glass )
For this to actually work the acryllic must NOT be less than 2 inch in thickness .
Remember acryllic is even used to build loudspeaker cabinet and if thick enough they wont move .
( you do still need damping meterial inside the loudspeaker to tame the reflections and standing waves
and thus the whole idea behind transperent loudspeakers is not so good in reality )
But as a solution to get rid of vibrations in windows it's a pretty good solution .
Sadly there is neither any damping nor absorption in this material and as i said reflection will still be there .
( everything below 5000 hz is unaffected and this is usually where our problems reside )
But to stop vibration from a smaller window its great .
As we know the bigger the window the bigger the problem so better have one or two very small windows
as those can be ' tamed ' in therms of vibrations .
( best is NO windows at all , yes that works best )
As an example is a control room in a studio where you have a window into the instrument room .
This window is angled slightly between bottom and top and in the best solutions is used 3 layers
of vacuum insulated glass at a resonable thickness .
To further add to the preventing vibrations an acryllic ( or layered ) in both sides .
It's working nice in a situation where you must have a kind of a window .
Remember in a controll room the window is almost always placed behind the mixing desk and
actually behind the studio monitors .
This is actually working and the layout of the damping and absorption in the controll room
compensate enough that it's not affecting the sound quality at all when listen and working .
( not really noticable thus you can measure it if you want to but it's minimal )
If done correctly it's working great and remember some of the best studios in the world
still have glass / window behind the control / mixing desk and speakers .
Edit - Thanks for as always a very informative video .
Acrylic scratches easily and is twice the cost of glass plate.
@@AcousticFields Thats true and over time it also fade slightly in transparency
depending of the quality .
But it's working and it's the most important .
Also in a studio when it's behind the mixing desk it's pretty protected from scratches .
: )
You mention in the video it’d be better to put any glass in the ceiling for natural light purposes. I’d like to know where you’d put this in relation to the speakers and the listening position and where you’d put treatment on the ceiling also. Thanks :)
C, Glass has to be small in surface area and out of the critical listening zone. A good place is at the wall ceiling juncture, 2-3 inches in width.
Hey Dennis, Have you ever tried (in attempts to modify/cure existing glass) sticking a Sorbothane puck on a window to dampen it? I reckon results would vary, depending on the glass, in terms of resultant vibration of the glass... I have another question, Does Activated Carbon in a non enclosed cabinet situation? and, How do you keep your diaphragmatic absorbers from becoming a speaker themselves?
B, Low-frequency energy that travels in large and long waves, strikes glass windows and causes them to go "diaphragmatic". This movement can easily be determined by placing an accelerometer on the glass and measuring audibility thresholds. You must isolate the wave from striking the glass. A puck here or there will not have the desired and measurable impact. Our diaphragmatic absorbers are absorbers by definition. Study the formula for DA to assist you with this.
Good information. But it's not real world for most humans who live with comprimises. In my case, the views from my dedicated listening room are spectacular. I need a compromise. I have a (not very scientific) plan to incorporate clear sheet vinyl into my room: Diffusion around the windows and a cavity over the windows covered by clear vinyl. The material is fairly soft and flexible. Any thoughts or suggestions? At night I'm currently covering the windows with triple honeycomb shades and wooden venetian blinds. I know. Doesn't help the low frequencies....
R, These are all tactics with no strategy. What are your listening objectives? Why are you using vinyl and placing diffusers "around" a window? Achieving good sound quality is the end result of doing a lot of little things correctly but more importantly in the correct order.
Are there any alternative transparent materials that could be used for windows?
G, You can use a soft clear plastic but it only impacts frequencies above 4,500 Hz.
Hi Dennis!
I have heard you many times talking about distance between speakers and front wall. Recently I found an interesting article about that: arqen.com/acoustics-101/speaker-placement-boundary-interference/
Since a low-shelf increase is easier to compensate with EQ than a comb filter, what do you think about placing the speakers as close as posible to a treated front wall?
Thank you from Spain, love your channel!
O, Thank you. The first rule in acoustics is to do no harm. Nothing good can come by placing a speaker close to a wall.
Like many other folks, I have a large piece of 55" diagonal glass between my stereo speakers. It is a television of course. My question is, about how far back from the front of the 2 stereo speaker cabinets/boxes should it be? I know it is better not to have it at all for audio reasons, but this is a dual purpose arrangement. I would think that the tv should not be flush with the speaker cabinet if my speakers are in fairly close proximity to the tv itself. I have my speakers currently set up about 1.5 feet from the front wall, and the tv about mid-point. With this non-ideal arrangement, in your experience, is there anything to be improved by moving the tv further back against the wall, or more forward towards the speaker cabinets? My own 5-minute hearing test seems so far to be inconclusive. Thanks for the videos. I just recently discovered your channel and company in the last two weeks and I have been binge-watching all your past videos. :)
66, Always keep your speakers away from any room boundary surfaces. The exact position depends on many variables. It is best to experiment with different positions to find a presentation value that suits your personal preferences.
Hey dude, I have messed extensively with a similar issue. This is what I have found. First, if the rest of the space is not properly or at least half properly acoustically treated then you will likely have a really hard time picking out the differences moving the TV makes, due to the vast scale of the acoustical soup going on. So, what I have found... No TV, best, obviously. TV glass flush with the front face of the floor standing speakers, Best for when watching TV and it just sitting there untreated (in a bit...)- negatives- it flattens the sound stage by maybe 80%, but if the TV is flush with the speakers, they are not reflecting off the glass directly, sound quality can remain pretty solid.
TV half way back to wall (say 6" back from speaker plane)(my speakers are 30" from wall, but TV only goes half that distance due to stand)- worst- TV is close enough to get solid reflections making a mess of the sound at the listening position.
last option, TV back to (still 15-18" from wall surface)- slightly better, but still not at all good... SO____ I took some rockwool that I had left from making absorbers, and a 14" serrated carving knife and sliced off /15~1/4 depth slices and covered them up into absorbers and made little hangers for them that attach to the TV.. this makes absorbers thick enough to capture the upper mids and highs that are the biggest issue. This is almost as good at taking the TV out, but that thing weight 70 pounds... and the cart it's on is only for going back and forth 12 inches (other stuff on it).
All that said, the TV only became an issue again after I had done the whole room... and decided to wonder why I didn't have 3d stereo... it's the TV blocking the back of the sound stage...
@@bc527c thanks for sharing your experimentations. Since then I am now trying the speakers much further away from the wall, 3 feet. When only listening to music I am trying out some foam padding to put directly over/in front of the tv surface. I put some also on the wall directly behind the speakers. It helps a bit, but the differences still seem kind of minor. There are probably other things in the room with greater effect.
I never had much results with foam, especially non acoustic specific foam, not that I have tried that... to expensive. Try a wool or cotton blanket, just to see... if you have one of those old school 'flannel' sleeping bags... those things really suck up sound... just to test to see if a difference stands out. Like I said, the rest of your room might be a much much bigger set of issues.
What material would you recommend for a skylight in a mix or mastering room if glass is out of the question? Purely hypothetical.
J, Ceiling surface areas are critical in live and control rooms. The materials and acoustic treatment are critical in both usages. If the skylight is behind the listening position then it can be treated. If it is between the speakers and listening position, then it must be treated with sound diffusion or sound absorption.
@@AcousticFields Thanks for the reply! Would you still be able to get natural light in the room with a treated skylight? Again this is purely hypothetical as I don't have one in my room, I've just always been curious about the best way to get natural light into control rooms without sacrificing too much of the quality of the monitoring environment.
I know speaker manufactures which produces there speaker cabinets of Glass. That must be stupid right?
R, Manufactures will do anything to sell products to the uninformed.
Just open the window, problem solved.
And you get to share your favorite music with your neighbors too :)
J, An open window is a perfect absorber. Sound leaves and never returns.
At the listening stage (end user) I prefer to keep the sound as natural as possible and relations/vibrations is a part of natural life/live sound .. IMO. I'm also a car audio enthusiast .. so unlike rooms, glass is an even bigger consideration, but few people fascinate around it. Unless you wanna do 65mph with no windshield, glass is pretty much an essential.
T, Yes, in-car audio, it is not for discussion, it is a given in the final sonic equation but that said it can be used to work with proper rates, levels, and square footage of absorption. I will be doing a video series on a 3-year audio project using our foam, carbon, and diffusion technology. I would appreciate your input.
Ah. So my bifold doors are most likely responsible for the spike at around 130hz then. Live and learn.
Nota nededly, friend. Check they dimension
130 Hertz could be a mode of the room
E, A 130 cycle peak is usually floor to ceiling related.
@@AcousticFields thanks for the help, makes sense. Much appeciated.
@@mrpositronia So there's no issue with the bifold doors then?