I distinctly recall being shamed for "bad posture" in elementary school in 1962. It wasn't until 45 years later when I learned that part of the problem was that one of my legs was slightly shorter, thereby throwing everything off.
My father once accused me of sticking my butt out, until I told him to look at my profile after he positioned me to the way *he* thought I should be standing. He relented, & then we all discovered that I have lordosis.
@davidsigalow7349 Oh, bullcrap. I work in the medical field and literally EVERYONE has slightly different leg lengths. Unless one of your legs is 10 inches shorter than the other, the difference in leg lengths won't affect your slouchy stance AT ALL. Stop playing the victim - though in vogue currently, it's actually just gross.
@@lisahinton9682 "...Unless one of Your legs is 10 INCHES SHORTER (!!???) the difference in leg lengths wont affect Your slouchy stance ...." Ehh... honestly I highly doubt that You "work in the medical field, since You appear to not even know how long an inch is ;)... A person with FAR LESS diffrence in leg length would, unless properly treated/mitegated be SEVERELY disabled in their mobility. And how a person changes their posture to "alleviate an imbalance" of such a magnitude is not something You can have any relevant opinion on without detailed knowledge of the person in question and their case, both medically and behaviourally... But don't let that get in the way of Your "Yelling at clouds" ;) I've heard (and read) that I'm not the only one who finds it amusing to read, AND it "helps the channel" :) Best regards.
Exactly the sort of performative nonsense you get in a rigidly Class Based society. Meanwhile staff are illicitly collecting nude photos like they're trading cards.
Seems fitting that I am sitting here more or less sprawled in my recliner, savoring my second cup of coffee, while enjoying THG's video. Thanks for another great year of forgotten history THG.
My ex is particularly tall. Growing up I think that she slumped and had poor posture in order to not appear so tall. She was constantly criticized, particularly by her mother. It took her a long time to realize that she was extremely attractive and being tall added to the effect. I believe that her mother's criticism for that and some other things highly sensitized her to any sort of criticism. As a result there is often an out sized emotional response to any form of criticism.
That is so sad, John. I'm sure you're right; constant criticism feels like a beating, and really messes a person up. All relationships contain some conflict and if you can't take being slightly criticized because of fear, you will not be able to resolve conflict. You will be unable to discuss problems and resolve them in a rational way.
Listening to the bizarre description of "posture days" at universities, reminds me of how easy it is to corrupt the mind with small changes, over time. Slowly increasing the temperature of absurdity until a group is engaged in behavior the individual would have balked at before the process began.
Thank you for this episode. It explains why our mother constantly and painfully poked us in our backs well into our 40s: "Stand up straight! Have good posture!" She was proud she graduated from Vassar.
@billhester8821 inertia isn't a reason but it is a consequence. It's important go remember each of our actions have consequences more important than their causes. The past is over and the future is yet to be forged, be better today.
I was born with idiopathic scoliosis, a condition not properly diagnosed because my pediatrician in my early years had become a doctor in 1938. Thanks to him and my mother, born in 1941, I spent a number of years in some extremely painful devices meant to correct my posture before a change in my parents insurance forced them to take me to a different pediatrician, one in her early 30s who no longer endorsed the sort of nonsense. Once I was diagnosed, and had corrective surgery, it became clear that what my parents were promoting was never a standard I could have achieved, and was in fact a little more than torture. It even made my condition worse. I can't imagine what it would have been like to have had my access to education relying on something a birth defect would have denied me ever achieving.
@@toomanymarys7355 I'm afraid you might have misunderstood. The braces that Dr. Castle wanted me to wear had nothing to do with scoliosis. They were just standard posture bras you could buy over the counter in the '70s and 80s. He never even tested me for scoliosis. And since the version I had involved malformation of the bone of the spine, with at least three areas where the bone did not properly develop, I needed surgery from the very beginning. If I'd had it when I was younger, I might not have developed a visible curve. But because he wouldn't test me, and because he thought that I needed to walk with a book balance on my head to get into college, I ended up having to have pretty extensive surgery.
I spent my youth being drugged, constantly psychoanalyzed, and sent away to homes for "troubled teens" - all of which eventually led to PTSD in my adulthood. All of this unnecessary BS happened because my doctors were too ignorant to diagnose my autism. Doctors really suck sometimes.
@@clicheguevara5282 Autism was first described by a Ukrainian Jewish woman in 1925, but remained unknown in the West until German and Austrian men wrote about it again in the 1940's: prior to that it was confused with childhood schizophrenia and schizoid personality disorder. It's not surprising that most 20th century doctors were too ignorant to use 21st century criteria. In another 30 years we'll see it differently.
@@clicheguevara5282 Yeah they really do! If there's a problem, throw medicine at it. They have this Idea that there are "normal people" and if you don't fit in their nice, neat normal box ,then you are sick, and need a pill or a barrage of pills, which only make everything worse. For me they did anyway. God made all kinds of people with all kinds of brains. We aren't supposed to all be the same. I sure hope your doing better now. I believe all humans are born with a gift, or gifts, they may feel like curses too at times. Heres hoping you have made peace with who you are and what happened to you.
I went to high school in the early 1970s. Our first gym teacher was rather chatty, and told us of her college experience, earning a PE degree, which included a semester course on posture. Part of the course consisted of wearing a swimsuit with a low back, and performing a series of exercises not only to balance books on the head, but to balance balls and weights while walking "properly" bent in various positions. The low back on the suit was so the instructors could check whether muscles were being properly used. She was young, so I assumed she went to college in the late 1960s. I tucked this information away in my mind, and made sure that I didn't matriculate at any college that required any physical education, and certainly no posture classes! This video reminded me of her.
My grandmother, born in 1914, never attended an ivy league school; but she definitely learned and passed along the lessons of stand up straight, and sit up and don't slouch.
I went to Connecticut College in the late 1960’s, which at that time was women only. I have always appreciated that unlike the other New England women’s colleges, “posture pictures” were not taken. I have a disability that is not visible, but for some of the colleges I had to have a separate interview to make sure that I conformed to their vision of what their students should look like. Made it easy to decide where to go.
That has always been my take, as I age these examples seem to be precious opportunities to identify the authoritarian creeps in every nook and cranny of society. What I find most illuminating about this story is just how pervasive it was without complaint and how it provides some insight into what 'good' ivy league material was really about submission to authority and acceptance of a benign bureaucratic snuffing of the individual as a prerequisite for 'getting in the club'.
@@fortusvictus8297 Pretty much. A professor at either Yale or Harvard (I don't remember which) told something along these lines to his students . One of the students made a comment: "So we are like highly educated sheep..."
I have been criticized for my poor posture for my entire life. I have scoliosis, a condition in which the spine bends to a severe degree. Looking at my bare back from behind, you can see that my spine is shaped like an 'S.' I also have kyphosis, a condition that means my vertebrae do not sit nice and square one atop the other. They are tapered and as a result, the normal curvature of my back is exaggerated. I have trained the muscles of my back to hold my body upright so that, on a normal day-to-day basis, I don't look any different than anyone else. But when I get tired, which, because I am now in my 60s happens more and more frequently, my muscles relax and I slouch. Severely. So severely that I have had people actually as me, "Are you OK" because my posture is so different from that of the people around me. I have extremely grateful that neither of my children received my back and none of my grandchildren, either. But, somewhere down the line, I am pretty sure that a descendant of mine will be born with my spinal deformity and, honestly, I wish I could write them a letter to express how sorry I am that they were stuck with it. For most of my life, I kept the condition hidden. But occasionally, someone in a position of authority over me noticed, and yes, I was considered to less than capable despite years of an exemplary record to the contrary. So, the prejudice against those with poor posture is still among us.
@@SafetySpooon Mine is so bad that an orthopedic surgeon tried using it to keep me from getting a commission in the Army. I was able to convince him that I was fully capable, but it took a great deal of effort on my part. I went on to serve as an officer in the Field Artillery for 10 years.
@@badbiker666I heard about a man who was refused entry to the Indian Army by an obsessive medical officer who noted that the carrying angle of his elbow was outside the normal range. He had no disability, and was a crack shot with a rifle, but despite having "corrective" surgery he was still kept out. He joined the Border Force instead.
Let’s face it. People like me will never look as good to others as those with good posture. But I’ve learned even with poor posture you people can still find a way to kiss my a-!
My Grandfather was definitely a product of Yale’s My father was a WWII veteran and Sargent at Ft Benning. I was raised that good posture was a sign of good character.
Interesting to hear of the racial angle back in Victorian days. If you've ever seen pictures of Maasai tribesmen you will note they have excellent posture, standing bolt upright with very square shoulders. Perhaps Sheldon should have studied them.
When I was about 10 years old in the 1970’s, my mom brought me to a chiropractor that actually used this method to tell you why you needed his chiropractic services. I thought it was the weirdest thing and made me feel very uncomfortable when I actually had the photo done. Weirder still was that this was advertised as a “free” posture review and the office had old pictures of people’s backsides in the lobby. Since then, I didn’t think anyone had ever done something so weird until I saw this video. Wow! Thanks for your efforts.
My mother had superb posture. A very elegant carriage. She always appeared high-class & stoic...I asked about it, & she admitted having been told her spine was "abnormally straight". But over the years, I've tried to maintain my own posture, if, for no other reason, because I wanted to emulate my mother's graceful countenance. My sense of humor gives me my reality check...what can I say...
Thanks for the video. The American writer Sylvia Plath spoke of these posture photos in letters home to her mother and in her diaries. Smith College was still doing this for first year students in the 1950s.
When I was a plebe at West Point during Beast Barracks the medical guys took picture pictures of each of us in our boxers. Naturally, the upperclassmen invested much effort in "improving our posture" throughout the day and night.
my mother (born 1919) was a big and consistent proponent of posture as a marker of one's internalized perception of their self worth, and how that was perceived by others in society. she insisted on "correct posture" in her children. in my experience in the 50/60s when i grew up there was most definitely a correlation in people's perception of others (negative or positive) by their posture and physical presentation. (adults/teachers often commented positively on my "good posture") though it was most often subliminal and unspoken it was highly valued societally. so in this way my mother's directives to her children, though debatable in health value, were of societal value. and it still matters today.
I remember way back in the 1960s when I was in elementary school that the school nurse performed a yearly posture assessment of every student. This stopped for me after the fourth grade but I was told by the nurse that I had a "hollow back" and that she was going to tell my family doctor so I could be treated. I never was. I think my family doctor believed this to be a lot of Hokum.
My Mother went to Allegheny in the 1940's and recounted many times to me that as Freshmen, they had their photos taken, naked, in the gym by the ladies' gym teacher, supposedly to record "posture". The gym teacher then sold these photos to the fraternity houses, so the frat boys could oogle the freshmen class. Sort of an early "Facebook" I guess.
If I hadn't seen this video I would have thought the headline was a joke. Thinking that the same info could have been gained, real or imagined, by having the students in swim wear or at least underwear, seems like someone had other motives for taking nude photos.
When I was in HS they had us examined for scoliosis, I think it was. We had to strip to our underwear and line up. Actually, in hindsight, I'm not sure why we couldn't have kept our shorts on. They could have seen our backs just as well. Strange.
Not defending this in the slightest, but do remember that underwear and swimwear at the beginning of that era was overalls and parachute pants specifically designed to hide the body’s form. Assuming a legitimate medical evaluation for just one moment, that couldn’t be obtained with the undergarments of the day. I’m sure that’s at least partly why it didn’t strike everyone at the time as immediately absurd to need the students naked.
The internet didn't exist yet, photos weren't then the problem they are today. I don't know about the women but the men's swim team likely swam nude. You are imposing today's sensibilities on the society of 70 years ago.
Posture Pictures were not taken just in colleges. In the 1960's my girl's boarding school took the pictures and had an associated class called "Body Mechanics" to correct "imperfections". The rumor was that the phtos were shipped to the Yale school of medicine for perusal. Less than a rumor was the whispering about the two women who ran the gym program - they had lived together for years and were assumed to be lesbians. I the late 60s they retired and with them went the dreaded and abhored posture pictures.
As a student physical therapist in 1978 we were obliged to purchase Florence P Kendall's "MuslcesTesting and Function"; first printed in 1949 (I think). My understanding is that the many nude (but censored) photographs of external muscle anatomy were from incoming West Point and/or Annapolis cadets. Ms. Kendall did write, along with her husband, many books and pamphlets on proper posture. It is still a very timely subject as many of my patients enter into treatment for poor posture amplified by sitting in front of a computer and rounding their shoulders and craning their neck. Posture still matters it seems. Thanks for another fascinating video!
Good posture is important for body health and maimtanance..Shaming or embarrassing someone until they do it is not good... I was always gently reminded by my parents to sit straight or not slouch..Now at 70 I am so glad that I know how to hold my body in co-operation with gravity.. I feel great.
Thank you for this. I recall coming across a collection of these nude posture studies on the Internet and wondered how this came about. One positive aspect was it reinforced my view of not judging the bodies of individuals compared to those of models.
My grandmother didn't use such high tech methods to promote good posture, if I was walking around the house with my shoulders slumped, I would find the knuckle of her middle finger thumped right in the middle of my back! beats a picture any day.🤣🤣
My sixth grade teacher did this to me; I turned around and put out her tooth. I'm not normally a violent person, but sudden (and heretofore unexperienced) pain to the spinal column tends to awaken the fight or flight instincts.
I remember having a gym teacher checking posture in 63 when I was 14. Everything about gym class was as traumatic as the opening scenes of Carrie for me, the first one. I barely got past the scene as it brought back a tsunami of body shame and bullying by teachers. It was just as bad at the next two schools. Kennedy had been assinated so everyone had to embrace the athletic/exercise zeitgeist he left in his wake. By the time I was 16 I had become extremely outspoken about my body and mind belonging to me and that I would do what I chose to do with them both. I was asked to leave HS in spite of being a Rhodes scholar candidate because they said I had a "flagrant disregard for all authority" (true then, true now) and that I was "corrupting the student body". (Only intellectually). At the time I was probably the only 18 yr old virgin left in America. The year was 1969. The posture error I was harangued over is a dowager's hump. All the women on both sides had one. I had it at 14 and hated it so much that at 20 I asked a doc to break my neck and correct it. He balked! I still have it, not by choice, at 73. I still hate it. Clearly genetically linked. If only my attitude had been positive I'm sure I could have corrected it and given myself brown eyes, too. Thanks for this episode. I've never talked about this. You're a wonderful therapist!❤️
Sorry all that happened to you. I was 8 years old in 1963. Our public schools were not nice places then. But no one knew about that. We had nothing to compare it to. Corporal punishment (“hacks” on the butt with a big flat boards) was used for the smallest of reasons. You are the same age as my siblings, born in 1949 - 1951. I wish you well.
You are the same age as my younger sister and one year older than my brother. We all attended Catholic schools through 8th grade. We learned about proper posture and physical exercise which we embraced and still do at our age. We still go the the gym, swim, bike, hike, sky dive and don't take any pills except for vitamins. We embraced President Kennedy's athletic/exercise zeitgeist, as you called it, as did our friends and classmates. The result was robust, healthy kids who enjoyed the out doors and mostly pain and drug free lifestyles today. The one thing that was not evident in the photos of this video were plus size (PC) couch potatoes who grew into unhealthy adults swallowing a host of presc. pills everyday. At no time we experience or see any body shaming or bullying by teachers or other students. There may have been some of this, but people had a bit thicker skin back in the day and their little feelings were not so easily hurt.
My dad threatened to put a big bag of unshelled walnuts on the chair behind me. He never did. We probably couldn't afford them. The funny thing is my posture improved greatly when I began doing simple exercises in my 40's. I realized at one point that my parents would rather "shame" than do something constructive that required effort on their part -- like exercising together. A lot has happened in my life and I'm back to slouching, but I have good intentions for the future. Being upright was helpful to me in many ways and I want to get back. Might need to watch less TH-cam! :)
I was constantly chided by my dad in my late teens to stand up straight. Now I know why. But his dad and mother met at an Art School they attended together in the beginning of the 20th century.. Nude painting and drawing lessons were part of their attraction to each other. While the drawing sessions were conducted with men and women students were separated by a curtain, I was told that notes were passed surreptitiously under that curtain. College is a time in life to explore greater bounds in education. They both became "naturists" but seldom was that fact brought up in my family.
I remember in grade school in the 60s, they separated the boys & girls, hearded us boys into the gym, and made us remove our shirts, and stand facing the wall while they inspected us. I think they were looking for Scoliosis. I have no clue if they made the girls strip to the waist.
My school did that in the 2000s. But they didn't make the girls take off their shirts, they just had us pull up the back so they could see our spine. They said it was for sports, but I didn't even do school sports.
My Mom often admonished me to put my shoulders back! I found it happened naturally when I lifted up my rib cage. And I taught my children good posture by having them walk with a peanut butter jar (plastic) on their heads. They enjoyed the exercise. No need to strip and shame
I went to a catholic school in the 90s and we had to do this. We were called to the office in groups of 5, waited, and then a nun called you into the HM office. A 2nd nun was waiting. They'd tell you to remove your uniform and stand in front of a mirror. Then we'd have to stand in diff poses, or lean forward and touch our toes while they looked at our spine. Back then I was quite largez so they expected me to have poor posture. I actually had the 3rd best in our class lol.
@sleepypanda3694 Size has zero to do with posture. But, how ironic that a formerly-larger person would fall in with the stereotype that large people are lazy/inept/no good. Also, the nuns may have been doing a cursory check for scoliosis, which shows up so often in the tween years.
After seeing this episode my mind flashed to the movie Serenity and Mal's statement of Somewhere along the line they got the notion they could make people better if you know the movie you know the rest.
Two thoughts: First, the change in poses for photos could also be attributed to the change in technology. The earliest cameras required subject to stand perfectly still for extended periods of time. Second, experts in meditation will teach you that it is important for the respiration that we sit upright, but not uptight. We should be relaxed, but allow or lungs to fully expand.
"Simple" is so attractive. The simple explanation for so many ills being "posture" is still very attractive, for "Good posture" will then solve all these ills. Such a pity that, in the real world, few issues of note are simple and the most important are oft so complex as to challenge those with expertise.
I thought I had heard it all but this tops it. Imagine being 17 or 18, achieving your dream and the school says we need naked photos of you if you want to continue attending this university. I would have become enraged
The thing that I find most striking is those were the Ivy League schools. Where all of our politicians come from. Our elderly politicians. With the way things are getting, I wonder how long it'll take for them to start stooping to leaking each other's.
Posture is still extremely important in ballet. I danced ballet for over 10yrs, and I still carry with me my posture and being mindful about moving more gracefully in general at all times. It has been decades but the habits stay with me.
That used to be much more common, when swim classes were more widespread and swimsuits both more expensive and of considerably lower quality. Nowadays it mostly seems relegated to heavily traditional rural schools and the occasional physical education fad that comes and goes.
@@Frankie5Angels150 not a boys school. Johnson Sr. High school was a public school on the east side of St.Paul Minnesota and YES when we had swimming for gym everyone except the two coaches/teachers were BUCK NAKED. The girls gym class were issued one piece swimsuits but there were no gym classes that were co-ed.
I’ve called them the Poison Ivy League since I was recruited in my high school football days. They committed more violations than several of the big schools combined. I chose to pass on playing for them not because of the students who were good people but it was the overall snotty attitude that the school had. The recent news only reinforced my feelings about them. This video is no surprise.
@@francispitts9440 Congrats, by displaying confirmation bias you successfully "lured" someone to... point out the confirmation bias you displayed. What a clever ruse.
My elementary school still performed yearly "posture" exams" checking for scoliosis and other issues until the late 1970's. I remember a few kids who did have scoliosis and 2 that had an extra rib on one side, so I guess it was worth doing. I don't remember why the school district stopped the practice since it seemed effective.
Even Hollywood recognizes the importance of good posture One of the first things were we hear in 'Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark' is Indy being admonished to 'get a little backbone'
I don't think they took photos but I remember in grade school we had to get a back check for scoliosis. Everybody had to do it. This was the late seventies in Kansas.
On entering the United States Military Academy at West Point in 1975 I faced a black wall wearing gym shorts (and nothing else) while a picture of my back was taken. That was the first time I heard the word scoliosis and learned to my surprise I had a mild case. My standard correction my first year was to lower my right shoulder as it tended to be higher than the left. The primary purpose of this photo was to prevent someone from being admitted who might develop serious back problems. It was also a tool for developing a "military bearing" and a "command presence", both of which were important at the academy. Years later, when taking a family photograph, the photographer asked me to relax. My mother replied, "He is relaxed."
Having skoliosis and Scheuermann and now with being 40yo I've got 3 broken spinal discs and one that is almost COMPLETELY gone I am amazed how good they once were in preventing people from having a totally broken spine while when i grew up in the 80s and 90s no one ever gave a fuck about the posture the kids were displaying. Suffering heavy back pain every freakin day I can't stress enough how important it is to teach and nudge your kids into having a good posture and change seat position constantly. Broken Spinal discs resulting from bad posture in childhood and youth is NO FUN AT ALL!!! In many ways mankind went backwards in the last 50 years!
Not a Georgia Tech in the 1970's (when I attended) nor at any time of any of the folks I know who attended (that includes folks who attended in the '30's, 40's. 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's), both sexes (and there were mighty few women until the late 1970's). At Tech, politeness and posture were not all that important to a bunch of engineering students and football players... just saying... Given that era had folks who thought child abuse was the way to go surprises me not one little bit...just like now, some folks will believe anyone who sounds good, to them.
Entering Jr.High School in 7th grade in 1967, we had a posture competition, where young men wearing only gym trunks went through various exercises in a public ceremony, evaluated by the PE staff, and awards given. Three whole thing struck me as bizarre. O seem to recall there was also a competition for girls, started out of the public eye in the gymnasium. No mention of posture was ever made again in my public school career - apparently a holdover from an earlier age.
I was a freshman at Nebraska University in 1963. In our gym class, we had to line up in our underwear, carrying our purses. Unforgettable memory! We didn't even question it.
I just watched this and went through a range of emotions: First, I could hear you holding back a giggle at the beginning due to the absurdity of it all. Next, I was very surprised to hear that it wasn’t all that long ago that this happened - that is, the nude photos of college students. THEN, I felt outrage that the so-called professional (pervert) was given free access to the pictures, which did not need to be taken in the first place. Now in middle schools and high schools (at least in California) girls are screened for scoliosis by a registered nurse. She checks each back for signs of curvature. I will continue!😊 I’m glad the California State Universities did not care what I looked like. 😅And I was constantly nagged by my parents for years to stand up straight. Leave those kids alone!!
When I walked down the stairs of my home age 16, my mother followed behind me. As I walked down the street to my after school job, my mother observed how i was walking. Then I heard her; "Throw your shoulders back and walk proud"... Thanks Mom... That was 50 years ago, its been done ever since... Chuck in Michigan
(07:11) December, 1944- Somewhere in a foxhole in the Ardennes. Soldier 1: "Duck down or a sniper will shoot you!" Soldier 2: "Me? What about you? Quit slouching! Good posture will win the..." BANG Soldier 2 slumps forward. Soldier 1: "See? Now, if you had been sitting like that to begin with, you'd still be alive, wouldn't you?"
I had heard of these photos but did not know the great numbers of them. Also, I hadn't realized that they still being taken so recently. The purpose of the photos to show posture seems rather lame, and were there ever actual beneficial medical studies undertaken? Were these just huge collections nude students.
Glad you mentioned Eugenics and Racism, but kind of surprised you didn't mention Lamarckism, and Social Darwinism. This probably is part of the Reason the American Eugenics Society renamed itself the Society for Biodemography and Social Biology which supposedly disbanded only a few years ago. Cold Springs Medical Laboratory (Former site of the Eugenics Records Office) may still maintain a complete record of these photographs. Really wish Dolan DNA Learning Center would update their site dedicated to the subject.
I remember teachers and my parents being obsessed with good posture while I was growing up. What embarrassed me down to the ground was the way my teachers would drag me up to the front of the class to use me as an example of "perfect posture". I got bullied a lot over that.
I spent some time in Guatemala where I saw women, both young and old, walking and standing with perfect posture while balancing large baskets atop their heads. I conclude that good posture is largely learned. (I'm sitting unusually straight in my chair as I type this.)
Allthough they didn't require nudity, I remember having to go through this posture testing thing back when I was a young man in school. It was sort of tramatic.
These schools mandated that their students have nude pictures taken under the guise that it was “scientifically” required which is nonsense as science is descriptive and not prescriptive and doesn’t compel anything. In a historical context, science didn’t mandate that students be forced to have nude pictures taken or that left-handed people be forced to write right-handed. In a contemporary context, science doesn’t mandate vaccines, masks, medical exams, or anything else. Science is simply an impartial tool that allows us to observe and understand the world. It’s unacceptable to use a position of authority to compel other people to strip naked and pose for a photograph or even to have to strip naked in general. These students were college age adults who did have the means to refuse the order to have a nude picture taken of them, but since attending a prestigious university was likely important for them, it was understood that few of the students would refuse this order and jeopardize their enrollment over that. I would gladly refuse to have a nude picture taken of me as a condition of college enrollment, but that’s because I don’t care about going to a “prestigious” university. I saw a comment from a woman who was forced to have a nude picture taken of her in her physical education class at a private girls high school. I’ve seen multiple comments from men who were forced to swim naked in high school or middle school all male physical education courses at both public and private schools. Forcing this sort of nudity on students in K-12 education is worse than forcing it on college students as these students are generally minors and it’s much harder for a K-12 student to defy such an unjust order. These K-12 students likely would have failed their physical education courses and been severely punished if they had defied these orders. That might have possibly made it difficult for them to move onto the next grade or to graduate. Depending on the mentality of their parents, there is also the chance that they would have been punished by their parents for not following orders at school. I would like to think that I would have defied these orders as a K-12 student, but the reality is I would have likely reluctantly complied as I wouldn’t have seen any way out of it. It’s an abuse of authority to force or try to force those under you to strip naked regardless of the age of those under you, but especially if they happen to be minors. Authority figures who do this sort of thing are perverts as far as I’m concerned. It seems that “prestigious” institutions are more likely to go along with misguided policies like this. It’s likely because they have the clout and esteemed reputations to be able to get away with it. The people affiliated with these institutions tend to be socially, politically, and economically ambitious and don’t want to risk their reputations and ambitions by going against misguided policies like this. This nude photo scandal also seems to be a sort of humiliation ritual to initiate the students into the ranks of the elite. Judging people by their posture and nagging people over their posture is absurd. This is another reason to question everything and to question authority.
@@hfk1001 No, you f**king smartass, but it's a damn sight better than it was 50 years ago and continues to improve. But of course you knew that but just had to show how clever you are to realize that things aren't perfect. Congratulations, genius, treat yourself to a cookie.
It's intriguing that the higher education institutions, such as Yale and Harvard, embraced this oddity and even shared photos with "researchers." BUT... I found it odd that our "History Guy" (who I respect deeply) would say "Before Charles Darwin and the concept of Evolution phrenologists argued that Europeans had a particular predilection for posture in their bones and spines unlike less civilized races of men." (time stamp 2:19 thru 2:30). The implication in the History Guy''s intonation was: Darwin and the concept of evolution saved us from this kind of thinking. Not so fast. It was Darwin's theory that emboldened racism and bigotry. Darwin's book was entitled: "Origin of Species is 'The Preservation of Favored Races in the Struggle for Life.'" Darwinism became the foundation of Hitler's "superior race" argument and became the racist argument for abortion espoused by Margaret Sanger - the founder of Planned Parenthood.
My mother matriculated at Vassar in 1949. When I toured the college with her, she told me about all of this: the mandatory posture class, posture photos, and scandalous rumors the photos had gotten out. She thought it was all ridiculous.
True story: I breastfed my new baby, & when I went to the pediatrician for the first time, he said ‘he needed to check my posture while nursing, to check that the baby was latching on probably while nursing or the baby might not be getting enough nutrients’ & the doctor had me reposition several times (no top on) with & without the baby, so ‘my posture was the CORRECT one for nursing’… & I kept doing it wrong. LATER, I was talking to some other moms (one happened to be a lactation nurse) & I mentioned it, & they ALL looked at each other & laughed, & one lady was like: ‘was it the doctor who always wears the bow-tie?’ & I was like, yeah. & they all were like ‘oooooooowe’ (the sound you make when you see a severe sports injury happen)! She was like: that ‘good posture while nursing or it won’t work’ guy is a complete perv, & that posture gimmick is a bunch of BS. 💀😬🤣
I remember the posture craze. when I was a youngster there was a kid's show that came on in which sometimes the kids would balance a basket on their heads to promote good posture. It was called a posture basket. This would have been in the late 60s. I think the show was called Romper Room.
That's correct. I remember that same show, but I saw it in the early 60s. And as I recall, the posture exercise was shown for about 30 or 60 seconds on every episode, where the kids would walk in a circle with the "posture baskets" on their heads. I think the circle that they walked on was marked on the floor. Funny, but 60 years later, that's really the only specific thing that I can remember happening on that show.
I remember being tested for posture when I was little. It was 3rd or 4th grade. My whole class was taken to the nurse's office. We went in two or three at a time. I don't remember having to take my clothes off, but I was asked to sit up straight and the nurse looked at me and tapped on my spine a few times.
I believe most of the emphasis on good posture in my elementary days was to keep us sitting still in our seats and pay attention. We did have scoliosis screenings, but nothing for posture.
We had posture day in PE when I was in 10th grade. It was very humiliating to those not chosen as Miss Posture. My mom said this couldn’t be possible for her daughter to be eliminated because I was a dancer, swimmer, runner. Lmao. I have a question though, how many remember the physical exam in 8th grade. All of us standing in our underwear (pants and undershirts or bras if you wore them) and being weighed and measured. Got sent home with a note asking my same dear mama why I didn’t wear a bra yet. Mom’s reply: why would she? There’s nothing there! 🤦♀️ I guess I was lucky it was Denver and cold enough to need an undershirt. 🥶 Public education is a quagmire 😮
I distinctly recall being shamed for "bad posture" in elementary school in 1962. It wasn't until 45 years later when I learned that part of the problem was that one of my legs was slightly shorter, thereby throwing everything off.
My father once accused me of sticking my butt out, until I told him to look at my profile after he positioned me to the way *he* thought I should be standing. He relented, & then we all discovered that I have lordosis.
Or did you spend 1/3 of your life sleeping on your side? Sleep on your back if you want a better posture.
@davidsigalow7349 Oh, bullcrap. I work in the medical field and literally EVERYONE has slightly different leg lengths. Unless one of your legs is 10 inches shorter than the other, the difference in leg lengths won't affect your slouchy stance AT ALL.
Stop playing the victim - though in vogue currently, it's actually just gross.
@@lisahinton9682
"...Unless one of Your legs is 10 INCHES SHORTER (!!???) the difference in leg lengths wont affect Your slouchy stance ...." Ehh... honestly I highly doubt that You "work in the medical field, since You appear to not even know how long an inch is ;)... A person with FAR LESS diffrence in leg length would, unless properly treated/mitegated be SEVERELY disabled in their mobility. And how a person changes their posture to "alleviate an imbalance" of such a magnitude is not something You can have any relevant opinion on without detailed knowledge of the person in question and their case, both medically and behaviourally...
But don't let that get in the way of Your "Yelling at clouds" ;) I've heard (and read) that I'm not the only one who finds it amusing to read, AND it "helps the channel" :)
Best regards.
Exactly the sort of performative nonsense you get in a rigidly Class Based society. Meanwhile staff are illicitly collecting nude photos like they're trading cards.
Seems fitting that I am sitting here more or less sprawled in my recliner, savoring my second cup of coffee, while enjoying THG's video. Thanks for another great year of forgotten history THG.
Same
Straighten up, child!
I love this channel.
More Power To You.....!
My ex is particularly tall. Growing up I think that she slumped and had poor posture in order to not appear so tall. She was constantly criticized, particularly by her mother. It took her a long time to realize that she was extremely attractive and being tall added to the effect. I believe that her mother's criticism for that and some other things highly sensitized her to any sort of criticism. As a result there is often an out sized emotional response to any form of criticism.
That is so sad, John. I'm sure you're right; constant criticism feels like a beating, and really messes a person up. All relationships contain some conflict and if you can't take being slightly criticized because of fear, you will not be able to resolve conflict. You will be unable to discuss problems and resolve them in a rational way.
Listening to the bizarre description of "posture days" at universities, reminds me of how easy it is to corrupt the mind with small changes, over time. Slowly increasing the temperature of absurdity until a group is engaged in behavior the individual would have balked at before the process began.
Like segregation on college campuses making a disgusting comeback?
@@DaneOrschlovsky Yeah, only now it's the blacks that are doing it, with 'No Whites parties, No Whites graduation ceremonies, ect.
Like Marxism and antisemitism today? I agree with you.
@@Frankie5Angels150 💯
Like oppressive DEI and woke ideology.
Thank you for this episode.
It explains why our mother constantly and painfully poked us in our backs well into our 40s: "Stand up straight! Have good posture!"
She was proud she graduated from Vassar.
Never a reason to be cruel.
I saw nudes in the title and clicked on it. Anyone else?
Was her wife glad, too?
@billhester8821 inertia isn't a reason but it is a consequence. It's important go remember each of our actions have consequences more important than their causes. The past is over and the future is yet to be forged, be better today.
Send nudes?
I was born with idiopathic scoliosis, a condition not properly diagnosed because my pediatrician in my early years had become a doctor in 1938. Thanks to him and my mother, born in 1941, I spent a number of years in some extremely painful devices meant to correct my posture before a change in my parents insurance forced them to take me to a different pediatrician, one in her early 30s who no longer endorsed the sort of nonsense. Once I was diagnosed, and had corrective surgery, it became clear that what my parents were promoting was never a standard I could have achieved, and was in fact a little more than torture. It even made my condition worse. I can't imagine what it would have been like to have had my access to education relying on something a birth defect would have denied me ever achieving.
Braces for scoliosis are still standard. They do help, but only so much. Surgery is much more invasive and preferred to ne avoided.
@@toomanymarys7355 I'm afraid you might have misunderstood. The braces that Dr. Castle wanted me to wear had nothing to do with scoliosis. They were just standard posture bras you could buy over the counter in the '70s and 80s. He never even tested me for scoliosis. And since the version I had involved malformation of the bone of the spine, with at least three areas where the bone did not properly develop, I needed surgery from the very beginning. If I'd had it when I was younger, I might not have developed a visible curve. But because he wouldn't test me, and because he thought that I needed to walk with a book balance on my head to get into college, I ended up having to have pretty extensive surgery.
I spent my youth being drugged, constantly psychoanalyzed, and sent away to homes for "troubled teens" - all of which eventually led to PTSD in my adulthood. All of this unnecessary BS happened because my doctors were too ignorant to diagnose my autism. Doctors really suck sometimes.
@@clicheguevara5282 Autism was first described by a Ukrainian Jewish woman in 1925, but remained unknown in the West until German and Austrian men wrote about it again in the 1940's: prior to that it was confused with childhood schizophrenia and schizoid personality disorder. It's not surprising that most 20th century doctors were too ignorant to use 21st century criteria. In another 30 years we'll see it differently.
@@clicheguevara5282 Yeah they really do! If there's a problem, throw medicine at it. They have this Idea that there are "normal people" and if you don't fit in their nice, neat normal box ,then you are sick, and need a pill or a barrage of pills, which only make everything worse. For me they did anyway.
God made all kinds of people with all kinds of brains. We aren't supposed to all be the same.
I sure hope your doing better now. I believe all humans are born with a gift, or gifts, they may feel like curses too at times. Heres hoping you have made peace with who you are and what happened to you.
I went to high school in the early 1970s. Our first gym teacher was rather chatty, and told us of her college experience, earning a PE degree, which included a semester course on posture. Part of the course consisted of wearing a swimsuit with a low back, and performing a series of exercises not only to balance books on the head, but to balance balls and weights while walking "properly" bent in various positions. The low back on the suit was so the instructors could check whether muscles were being properly used. She was young, so I assumed she went to college in the late 1960s. I tucked this information away in my mind, and made sure that I didn't matriculate at any college that required any physical education, and certainly no posture classes!
This video reminded me of her.
My grandmother, born in 1914, never attended an ivy league school; but she definitely learned and passed along the lessons of stand up straight, and sit up and don't slouch.
I think everybody's grandma went to that school.
It was something my mother was taught in nursing school.
Maybe we should bring some of that back.
Not quite.@@user-kr4rz5hn4n
That is a good thing. I can say as a physical therapist that posture absolutely effects you. I see it every single day.
I went to Connecticut College in the late 1960’s, which at that time was women only. I have always appreciated that unlike the other New England women’s colleges, “posture pictures” were not taken. I have a disability that is not visible, but for some of the colleges I had to have a separate interview to make sure that I conformed to their vision of what their students should look like. Made it easy to decide where to go.
That has always been my take, as I age these examples seem to be precious opportunities to identify the authoritarian creeps in every nook and cranny of society.
What I find most illuminating about this story is just how pervasive it was without complaint and how it provides some insight into what 'good' ivy league material was really about submission to authority and acceptance of a benign bureaucratic snuffing of the individual as a prerequisite for 'getting in the club'.
@@fortusvictus8297 Pretty much. A professor at either Yale or Harvard (I don't remember which) told something along these lines to his students . One of the students made a comment: "So we are like highly educated sheep..."
So you went to school with all of the ugly girls?
I have been criticized for my poor posture for my entire life. I have scoliosis, a condition in which the spine bends to a severe degree. Looking at my bare back from behind, you can see that my spine is shaped like an 'S.' I also have kyphosis, a condition that means my vertebrae do not sit nice and square one atop the other. They are tapered and as a result, the normal curvature of my back is exaggerated.
I have trained the muscles of my back to hold my body upright so that, on a normal day-to-day basis, I don't look any different than anyone else. But when I get tired, which, because I am now in my 60s happens more and more frequently, my muscles relax and I slouch. Severely. So severely that I have had people actually as me, "Are you OK" because my posture is so different from that of the people around me. I have extremely grateful that neither of my children received my back and none of my grandchildren, either. But, somewhere down the line, I am pretty sure that a descendant of mine will be born with my spinal deformity and, honestly, I wish I could write them a letter to express how sorry I am that they were stuck with it.
For most of my life, I kept the condition hidden. But occasionally, someone in a position of authority over me noticed, and yes, I was considered to less than capable despite years of an exemplary record to the contrary. So, the prejudice against those with poor posture is still among us.
My scoliosis is so minor that it wasn't discovered until after the birth of my first child.
@@SafetySpooon Mine is so bad that an orthopedic surgeon tried using it to keep me from getting a commission in the Army. I was able to convince him that I was fully capable, but it took a great deal of effort on my part. I went on to serve as an officer in the Field Artillery for 10 years.
@@badbiker666I heard about a man who was refused entry to the Indian Army by an obsessive medical officer who noted that the carrying angle of his elbow was outside the normal range. He had no disability, and was a crack shot with a rifle, but despite having "corrective" surgery he was still kept out. He joined the Border Force instead.
Is there a brace or support you can wear?
Let’s face it. People like me will never look as good to others as those with good posture. But I’ve learned even with poor posture you people can still find a way to kiss my a-!
Good Friday morning History Guy and everyone watching. Happy New Year! Will see you all next year!
My Grandfather was definitely a product of Yale’s My father was a WWII veteran and Sargent at Ft Benning. I was raised that good posture was a sign of good character.
Interesting to hear of the racial angle back in Victorian days. If you've ever seen pictures of Maasai tribesmen you will note they have excellent posture, standing bolt upright with very square shoulders. Perhaps Sheldon should have studied them.
He would have just made some twisted rationalization for why it didnt matter, racism cant really be reasoned with.
When I was about 10 years old in the 1970’s, my mom brought me to a chiropractor that actually used this method to tell you why you needed his chiropractic services. I thought it was the weirdest thing and made me feel very uncomfortable when I actually had the photo done. Weirder still was that this was advertised as a “free” posture review and the office had old pictures of people’s backsides in the lobby. Since then, I didn’t think anyone had ever done something so weird until I saw this video. Wow! Thanks for your efforts.
My mother had superb posture. A very elegant carriage. She always appeared high-class & stoic...I asked about it, & she admitted having been told her spine was "abnormally straight".
But over the years, I've tried to maintain my own posture, if, for no other reason, because I wanted to emulate my mother's graceful countenance. My sense of humor gives me my reality check...what can I say...
Thanks for the video. The American writer Sylvia Plath spoke of these posture photos in letters home to her mother and in her diaries. Smith College was still doing this for first year students in the 1950s.
When I was a plebe at West Point during Beast Barracks the medical guys took picture pictures of each of us in our boxers. Naturally, the upperclassmen invested much effort in "improving our posture" throughout the day and night.
Brace!
Could u describe the physical therapy they administered?
I had no idea this was a thing until I read mention of it in The Bell Jar, and yet I've not seen any proper discussion of the topic until now. Thanks.
my mother (born 1919) was a big and consistent proponent of posture as a marker of one's internalized perception of their self worth, and how that was perceived by others in society. she insisted on "correct posture" in her children. in my experience in the 50/60s when i grew up there was most definitely a correlation in people's perception of others (negative or positive) by their posture and physical presentation. (adults/teachers often commented positively on my "good posture") though it was most often subliminal and unspoken it was highly valued societally. so in this way my mother's directives to her children, though debatable in health value, were of societal value. and it still matters today.
I remember way back in the 1960s when I was in elementary school that the school nurse performed a yearly posture assessment of every student. This stopped for me after the fourth grade but I was told by the nurse that I had a "hollow back" and that she was going to tell my family doctor so I could be treated.
I never was. I think my family doctor believed this to be a lot of Hokum.
Don't we still do this for scoliosis screening?
@@Mcfunface This was required by the school district that my children attended to be done by the family physician.
My Mother went to Allegheny in the 1940's and recounted many times to me that as Freshmen, they had their photos taken, naked, in the gym by the ladies' gym teacher, supposedly to record "posture". The gym teacher then sold these photos to the fraternity houses, so the frat boys could oogle the freshmen class. Sort of an early "Facebook" I guess.
Allegheny College? If so, I can tell ya that was no longer the policy by 2003, though scary it ever was.
i saw another video where they said students thought so. the fb dating service part.
If I hadn't seen this video I would have thought the headline was a joke. Thinking that the same info could have been gained, real or imagined, by having the students in swim wear or at least underwear, seems like someone had other motives for taking nude photos.
When I was in HS they had us examined for scoliosis, I think it was. We had to strip to our underwear and line up. Actually, in hindsight, I'm not sure why we couldn't have kept our shorts on. They could have seen our backs just as well. Strange.
Not defending this in the slightest, but do remember that underwear and swimwear at the beginning of that era was overalls and parachute pants specifically designed to hide the body’s form. Assuming a legitimate medical evaluation for just one moment, that couldn’t be obtained with the undergarments of the day. I’m sure that’s at least partly why it didn’t strike everyone at the time as immediately absurd to need the students naked.
@@swilson42
May I have some dressing with that word salad please?
I had heard about it a few years ago - the article I read had used Hillary Clinton's name to garner attention.
The internet didn't exist yet, photos weren't then the problem they are today. I don't know about the women but the men's swim team likely swam nude. You are imposing today's sensibilities on the society of 70 years ago.
My Mom was ALWAYS urging my siblings and me to “stand up straight.”
I guess this practice was widespread.
Great video! Thanks! 😊
Posture Pictures were not taken just in colleges. In the 1960's my girl's boarding school took the pictures and had an associated class called "Body Mechanics" to correct "imperfections". The rumor was that the phtos were shipped to the Yale school of medicine for perusal. Less than a rumor was the whispering about the two women who ran the gym program - they had lived together for years and were assumed to be lesbians. I the late 60s they retired and with them went the dreaded and abhored posture pictures.
As a student physical therapist in 1978 we were obliged to purchase Florence P Kendall's "MuslcesTesting and Function"; first printed in 1949 (I think). My understanding is that the many nude (but censored) photographs of external muscle anatomy were from incoming West Point and/or Annapolis cadets. Ms. Kendall did write, along with her husband, many books and pamphlets on proper posture.
It is still a very timely subject as many of my patients enter into treatment for poor posture amplified by sitting in front of a computer and rounding their shoulders and craning their neck. Posture still matters it seems. Thanks for another fascinating video!
Liked the loud music at the end, wondered about it, but since I could still understand you, I just decided to enjoy it!
How far we've come. And how far we've got to go still...
I could not say it better myself. So I won't. Very well put!
Good posture is important for body health and maimtanance..Shaming or embarrassing someone until they do it is not good... I was always gently reminded by my parents to sit straight or not slouch..Now at 70 I am so glad that I know how to hold my body in co-operation with gravity.. I feel great.
Thank you for this. I recall coming across a collection of these nude posture studies on the Internet and wondered how this came about. One positive aspect was it reinforced my view of not judging the bodies of individuals compared to those of models.
We still did scoliosis screenings at my school in the late 80's early 90's.
My grandmother didn't use such high tech methods to promote good posture, if I was walking around the house with my shoulders slumped, I would find the knuckle of her middle finger thumped right in the middle of my back! beats a picture any day.🤣🤣
My Mom did the same thing 😂
My sixth grade teacher did this to me; I turned around and put out her tooth. I'm not normally a violent person, but sudden (and heretofore unexperienced) pain to the spinal column tends to awaken the fight or flight instincts.
I remember having a gym teacher checking posture in 63 when I was 14.
Everything about gym class was as traumatic as the opening scenes of Carrie for me, the first one. I barely got past the scene as it brought back a tsunami of body shame and bullying by teachers.
It was just as bad at the next two schools.
Kennedy had been assinated so everyone had to embrace the athletic/exercise zeitgeist he left in his wake.
By the time I was 16 I had become extremely outspoken about my body and mind belonging to me and that I would do what I chose to do with them both.
I was asked to leave HS in spite of being a Rhodes scholar candidate because they said I had a "flagrant disregard for all authority" (true then, true now) and that I was "corrupting the student body". (Only intellectually).
At the time I was probably the only 18 yr old virgin left in America. The year was 1969.
The posture error I was harangued over is a dowager's hump. All the women on both sides had one. I had it at 14 and hated it so much that at 20 I asked a doc to break my neck and correct it. He balked!
I still have it, not by choice, at 73. I still hate it.
Clearly genetically linked. If only my attitude had been positive I'm sure I could have corrected it and given myself brown eyes, too. Thanks for this episode. I've never talked about this. You're a wonderful therapist!❤️
Sorry all that happened to you. I was 8 years old in 1963. Our public schools were not nice places then. But no one knew about that. We had nothing to compare it to.
Corporal punishment (“hacks” on the butt with a big flat boards) was used for the smallest of reasons.
You are the same age as my siblings, born in 1949 - 1951.
I wish you well.
You are the same age as my younger sister and one year older than my brother. We all attended Catholic schools through 8th grade. We learned about proper posture and physical exercise which we embraced and still do at our age. We still go the the gym, swim, bike, hike, sky dive and don't take any pills except for vitamins. We embraced President Kennedy's athletic/exercise zeitgeist, as you called it, as did our friends and classmates. The result was robust, healthy kids who enjoyed the out doors and mostly pain and drug free lifestyles today. The one thing that was not evident in the photos of this video were plus size (PC) couch potatoes who grew into unhealthy adults swallowing a host of presc. pills everyday. At no time we experience or see any body shaming or bullying by teachers or other students. There may have been some of this, but people had a bit thicker skin back in the day and their little feelings were not so easily hurt.
@3:45 the "good kid, bad kid" illustrations make me think of Goofus and Gallant in Highlights magazine. :)
My dad threatened to put a big bag of unshelled walnuts on the chair behind me. He never did. We probably couldn't afford them. The funny thing is my posture improved greatly when I began doing simple exercises in my 40's. I realized at one point that my parents would rather "shame" than do something constructive that required effort on their part -- like exercising together. A lot has happened in my life and I'm back to slouching, but I have good intentions for the future. Being upright was helpful to me in many ways and I want to get back. Might need to watch less TH-cam! :)
I was constantly chided by my dad in my late teens to stand up straight. Now I know why. But his dad and mother met at an Art School they attended together in the beginning of the 20th century.. Nude painting and drawing lessons were part of their attraction to each other. While the drawing sessions were conducted with men and women students were separated by a curtain, I was told that notes were passed surreptitiously under that curtain. College is a time in life to explore greater bounds in education. They both became "naturists" but seldom was that fact brought up in my family.
Great teacher , channel excelent , greetings Froom colombia south america
I remember in grade school in the 60s, they separated the boys & girls, hearded us boys into the gym, and made us remove our shirts, and stand facing the wall while they inspected us. I think they were looking for Scoliosis.
I have no clue if they made the girls strip to the waist.
My school did that in the 2000s. But they didn't make the girls take off their shirts, they just had us pull up the back so they could see our spine. They said it was for sports, but I didn't even do school sports.
We were doing that in the 90’s. Some kids don’t exactly get the best pediatric care, so I am sure that program has helped a lot of children.
I was having some back problems so I bought a back brace online. Its amazing how different of a person I feel like when I'm wearing it.
My Mom often admonished me to put my shoulders back! I found it happened naturally when I lifted up my rib cage.
And I taught my children good posture by having them walk with a peanut butter jar (plastic) on their heads. They enjoyed the exercise. No need to strip and shame
I went to a catholic school in the 90s and we had to do this. We were called to the office in groups of 5, waited, and then a nun called you into the HM office. A 2nd nun was waiting. They'd tell you to remove your uniform and stand in front of a mirror. Then we'd have to stand in diff poses, or lean forward and touch our toes while they looked at our spine.
Back then I was quite largez so they expected me to have poor posture. I actually had the 3rd best in our class lol.
We did this in gym class to check for scoliosis. The same thing happened at my physical for the Army.
@sleepypanda3694 Size has zero to do with posture. But, how ironic that a formerly-larger person would fall in with the stereotype that large people are lazy/inept/no good.
Also, the nuns may have been doing a cursory check for scoliosis, which shows up so often in the tween years.
@@Nursebakr
The word gym means naked.
A nurse did this at my Catholic school but she said she was checking for scoliosis and this new “anorexia” disease
After seeing this episode my mind flashed to the movie Serenity and Mal's statement of Somewhere along the line they got the notion they could make people better if you know the movie you know the rest.
Are you talking about hookers? That writer had a real fetish for prostitution
Two thoughts: First, the change in poses for photos could also be attributed to the change in technology. The earliest cameras required subject to stand perfectly still for extended periods of time. Second, experts in meditation will teach you that it is important for the respiration that we sit upright, but not uptight. We should be relaxed, but allow or lungs to fully expand.
I'm glad we all formed a more enlightened posture and relegated these photo sessions to history.
Relegated to onlyfans now.
Whatever, endomorph.
"Simple" is so attractive. The simple explanation for so many ills being "posture" is still very attractive, for "Good posture" will then solve all these ills. Such a pity that, in the real world, few issues of note are simple and the most important are oft so complex as to challenge those with expertise.
I thought I had heard it all but this tops it. Imagine being 17 or 18, achieving your dream and the school says we need naked photos of you if you want to continue attending this university. I would have become enraged
I would have become engorged! Let them explain that in the photos!😆😂🤣
Not in the 1940s you wouldn't. Things were different back then.
The thing that I find most striking is those were the Ivy League schools. Where all of our politicians come from. Our elderly politicians. With the way things are getting, I wonder how long it'll take for them to start stooping to leaking each other's.
If you were around back then you wouldn’t know anything to be enraged about. It was normal.
Meanwhile my school just got banned from IKEA for a rowdy game of hide and seek
Posture is still extremely important in ballet. I danced ballet for over 10yrs, and I still carry with me my posture and being mindful about moving more gracefully in general at all times. It has been decades but the habits stay with me.
My wife was shocked and appalled when I told her that at my public senior high school everyone swam naked for gym class. I graduated in n 1973.
That used to be much more common, when swim classes were more widespread and swimsuits both more expensive and of considerably lower quality. Nowadays it mostly seems relegated to heavily traditional rural schools and the occasional physical education fad that comes and goes.
All boys school? If not, I wave the b.s. flag. I graduated in 1974 and the only nudity was in the locker room and showers.
@@Frankie5Angels150 not a boys school. Johnson Sr. High school was a public school on the east side of St.Paul Minnesota and YES when we had swimming for gym everyone except the two coaches/teachers were BUCK NAKED. The girls gym class were issued one piece swimsuits but there were no gym classes that were co-ed.
I am shocked & appalled as well.
Good solid Catholic education, eh?
I’ve called them the Poison Ivy League since I was recruited in my high school football days. They committed more violations than several of the big schools combined. I chose to pass on playing for them not because of the students who were good people but it was the overall snotty attitude that the school had. The recent news only reinforced my feelings about them. This video is no surprise.
Confirmation bias is a hell of a thing
@@FuncleChuck awe did I draw out one of the arrogant little ones? You bit that lure like a large mouth bass. So predictable.
@@francispitts9440 Congrats, by displaying confirmation bias you successfully "lured" someone to... point out the confirmation bias you displayed. What a clever ruse.
My elementary school still performed yearly "posture" exams" checking for scoliosis and other issues until the late 1970's. I remember a few kids who did have scoliosis and 2 that had an extra rib on one side, so I guess it was worth doing. I don't remember why the school district stopped the practice since it seemed effective.
They still do screen for scoliosis. Just in your underwear one at a time in middle school locker rooms.
Even Hollywood recognizes the importance of good posture
One of the first things were we hear in 'Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark' is Indy being admonished to 'get a little backbone'
In junior high school,in 1978, all the kids were taken to the gym. We had to take our shirts off and we had a scoliosis exam. 😮
Did anyone find themselves constantly adjusting their posture whilst watching this?
Of course. Also had a few good laughs until the pictures part. Gawd.
Yes.
Great example why you should question everything
I don't think they took photos but I remember in grade school we had to get a back check for scoliosis. Everybody had to do it. This was the late seventies in Kansas.
Same in NY but probably the late 60s
On entering the United States Military Academy at West Point in 1975 I faced a black wall wearing gym shorts (and nothing else) while a picture of my back was taken. That was the first time I heard the word scoliosis and learned to my surprise I had a mild case. My standard correction my first year was to lower my right shoulder as it tended to be higher than the left. The primary purpose of this photo was to prevent someone from being admitted who might develop serious back problems. It was also a tool for developing a "military bearing" and a "command presence", both of which were important at the academy. Years later, when taking a family photograph, the photographer asked me to relax. My mother replied, "He is relaxed."
At my age, I figure that as long as I'm still upright (and above ground), my posture is good enough...
Having skoliosis and Scheuermann and now with being 40yo I've got 3 broken spinal discs and one that is almost COMPLETELY gone I am amazed how good they once were in preventing people from having a totally broken spine while when i grew up in the 80s and 90s no one ever gave a fuck about the posture the kids were displaying. Suffering heavy back pain every freakin day I can't stress enough how important it is to teach and nudge your kids into having a good posture and change seat position constantly. Broken Spinal discs resulting from bad posture in childhood and youth is NO FUN AT ALL!!!
In many ways mankind went backwards in the last 50 years!
Not a Georgia Tech in the 1970's (when I attended) nor at any time of any of the folks I know who attended (that includes folks who attended in the '30's, 40's. 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's),
both sexes (and there were mighty few women until the late 1970's). At Tech, politeness and posture were not all that important to a bunch of engineering students and football players...
just saying... Given that era had folks who thought child abuse was the way to go surprises me not one little bit...just like now, some folks will believe anyone who sounds good, to them.
oh, same goes for UGA, so I guess this insanity didn't make it down south, thankfully.
That explains why they are Rambling Wrecks....poor posture
We had more useful stuff like drownproofing
Entering Jr.High School in 7th grade in 1967, we had a posture competition, where young men wearing only gym trunks went through various exercises in a public ceremony, evaluated by the PE staff, and awards given. Three whole thing struck me as bizarre. O seem to recall there was also a competition for girls, started out of the public eye in the gymnasium. No mention of posture was ever made again in my public school career - apparently a holdover from an earlier age.
I was a freshman at Nebraska University in 1963. In our gym class, we had to line up in our underwear, carrying our purses. Unforgettable memory! We didn't even question it.
I just watched this and went through a range of emotions: First, I could hear you holding back a giggle at the beginning due to the absurdity of it all. Next, I was very surprised to hear that it wasn’t all that long ago that this happened - that is, the nude photos of college students. THEN, I felt outrage that the so-called professional (pervert) was given free access to the pictures, which did not need to be taken in the first place. Now in middle schools and high schools (at least in California) girls are screened for scoliosis by a registered nurse. She checks each back for signs of curvature. I will continue!😊 I’m glad the California State Universities did not care what I looked like. 😅And I was constantly nagged by my parents for years to stand up straight. Leave those kids alone!!
Growing up in the 1960’s I can’t tell you how many times my dad admonished me to stand up straight.
When I walked down the stairs of my home age 16, my mother followed behind me. As I walked down the street to my after school job, my mother observed how i was walking. Then I heard her; "Throw your shoulders back and walk proud"...
Thanks Mom...
That was 50 years ago, its been done ever since...
Chuck in Michigan
(07:11) December, 1944- Somewhere in a foxhole in the Ardennes.
Soldier 1: "Duck down or a sniper will shoot you!"
Soldier 2: "Me? What about you? Quit slouching! Good posture will win the..."
BANG
Soldier 2 slumps forward.
Soldier 1: "See? Now, if you had been sitting like that to begin with, you'd still be alive, wouldn't you?"
Vicious!
But hilarious😂
I remember reading Cavett's account of his comedy routine and its inspiration in his first book. I was astonished that such a thing ever happened.
As a child in the 1960s I was frequently told to sit up straight and take my elbows off the table. Now in my sixties I love lounging around.
History Guy you are fantastic! What knowledge and culture!!!
I had heard of these photos but did not know the great numbers of them. Also, I hadn't realized that they still being taken so recently. The purpose of the photos to show posture seems rather lame, and were there ever actual beneficial medical studies undertaken? Were these just huge collections nude students.
I can just hear the inteligencia and media yelling, “the (posture) science is settled”,
Now we allow the TSA to take nude shadow photos of everyone when we travel 😝
Glad you mentioned Eugenics and Racism, but kind of surprised you didn't mention Lamarckism, and Social Darwinism. This probably is part of the Reason the American Eugenics Society renamed itself the Society for Biodemography and Social Biology which supposedly disbanded only a few years ago. Cold Springs Medical Laboratory (Former site of the Eugenics Records Office) may still maintain a complete record of these photographs. Really wish Dolan DNA Learning Center would update their site dedicated to the subject.
I remember teachers and my parents being obsessed with good posture while I was growing up. What embarrassed me down to the ground was the way my teachers would drag me up to the front of the class to use me as an example of "perfect posture". I got bullied a lot over that.
I spent some time in Guatemala where I saw women, both young and old, walking and standing with perfect posture while balancing large baskets atop their heads. I conclude that good posture is largely learned. (I'm sitting unusually straight in my chair as I type this.)
A little late to class this morning (8:30 Eastern…) I’ll just quietly slip into my seat. Happy New Year fellow students, see you all in class in 2024!
Another Great episode!
America, land of the prudes.
You look like a professor from Montreal that I just met here, a decade earlier. The resemblances are uncanny!
Allthough they didn't require nudity, I remember having to go through this posture testing thing back when I was a young man in school. It was sort of tramatic.
Maybe you're thinking of when they checked your spine for scoliosis
Traumatic? Or dramatic?
I remember back in the 70s they did scoliosis testing at school.
But I do remember a lot of emphasis on proper posture.
TRAMATIC?….?….
These schools mandated that their students have nude pictures taken under the guise that it was “scientifically” required which is nonsense as science is descriptive and not prescriptive and doesn’t compel anything.
In a historical context, science didn’t mandate that students be forced to have nude pictures taken or that left-handed people be forced to write right-handed.
In a contemporary context, science doesn’t mandate vaccines, masks, medical exams, or anything else. Science is simply an impartial tool that allows us to observe and understand the world.
It’s unacceptable to use a position of authority to compel other people to strip naked and pose for a photograph or even to have to strip naked in general.
These students were college age adults who did have the means to refuse the order to have a nude picture taken of them, but since attending a prestigious university was likely important for them, it was understood that few of the students would refuse this order and jeopardize their enrollment over that.
I would gladly refuse to have a nude picture taken of me as a condition of college enrollment, but that’s because I don’t care about going to a “prestigious” university.
I saw a comment from a woman who was forced to have a nude picture taken of her in her physical education class at a private girls high school.
I’ve seen multiple comments from men who were forced to swim naked in high school or middle school all male physical education courses at both public and private schools.
Forcing this sort of nudity on students in K-12 education is worse than forcing it on college students as these students are generally minors and it’s much harder for a K-12 student to defy such an unjust order.
These K-12 students likely would have failed their physical education courses and been severely punished if they had defied these orders. That might have possibly made it difficult for them to move onto the next grade or to graduate.
Depending on the mentality of their parents, there is also the chance that they would have been punished by their parents for not following orders at school.
I would like to think that I would have defied these orders as a K-12 student, but the reality is I would have likely reluctantly complied as I wouldn’t have seen any way out of it.
It’s an abuse of authority to force or try to force those under you to strip naked regardless of the age of those under you, but especially if they happen to be minors.
Authority figures who do this sort of thing are perverts as far as I’m concerned.
It seems that “prestigious” institutions are more likely to go along with misguided policies like this. It’s likely because they have the clout and esteemed reputations to be able to get away with it.
The people affiliated with these institutions tend to be socially, politically, and economically ambitious and don’t want to risk their reputations and ambitions by going against misguided policies like this.
This nude photo scandal also seems to be a sort of humiliation ritual to initiate the students into the ranks of the elite.
Judging people by their posture and nagging people over their posture is absurd.
This is another reason to question everything and to question authority.
Do we need good posture sometimes? Yes. Do we need to slouch sometimes? Yes. Moderation, folks. Moderation. :)
2:17 😅 penthouse... now there is a topical reference I'm not sure many have our younger viewers will understand
As a physician, I never cease to be amazed and dismayed at how ignorant and unethical the fields of science and medicine were just a few decades ago.
But not now, right? Your profession has all the science in the bag and ethical lapses/misconceptions are a thing of the past, right?
@@hfk1001 No, you f**king smartass, but it's a damn sight better than it was 50 years ago and continues to improve. But of course you knew that but just had to show how clever you are to realize that things aren't perfect. Congratulations, genius, treat yourself to a cookie.
The real problem is that the fields are even more unscientific, unethical, and ignorant today.
and 100 years from now you'll be considered " ignorant and unethical " by their science and medicine
Were?
I remember sitting at desks exactly like those at 4:20 in my early school days.
It's intriguing that the higher education institutions, such as Yale and Harvard, embraced this oddity and even shared photos with "researchers." BUT... I found it odd that our "History Guy" (who I respect deeply) would say "Before Charles Darwin and the concept of Evolution phrenologists argued that Europeans had a particular predilection for posture in their bones and spines unlike less civilized races of men." (time stamp 2:19 thru 2:30). The implication in the History Guy''s intonation was: Darwin and the concept of evolution saved us from this kind of thinking. Not so fast. It was Darwin's theory that emboldened racism and bigotry. Darwin's book was entitled: "Origin of Species is 'The Preservation of Favored Races in the Struggle for Life.'" Darwinism became the foundation of Hitler's "superior race" argument and became the racist argument for abortion espoused by Margaret Sanger - the founder of Planned Parenthood.
My mother matriculated at Vassar in 1949. When I toured the college with her, she told me about all of this: the mandatory posture class, posture photos, and scandalous rumors the photos had gotten out. She thought it was all ridiculous.
From the university that brought you Skull and Bones--maybe this is where they got their rituals from.
Good posture is not indicative of morality, but it does help minimize back pain.
The outro music is way too loud.
Yes
True story: I breastfed my new baby, & when I went to the pediatrician for the first time, he said ‘he needed to check my posture while nursing, to check that the baby was latching on probably while nursing or the baby might not be getting enough nutrients’ & the doctor had me reposition several times (no top on) with & without the baby, so ‘my posture was the CORRECT one for nursing’… & I kept doing it wrong.
LATER, I was talking to some other moms (one happened to be a lactation nurse) & I mentioned it, & they ALL looked at each other & laughed, & one lady was like: ‘was it the doctor who always wears the bow-tie?’ & I was like, yeah.
& they all were like ‘oooooooowe’ (the sound you make when you see a severe sports injury happen)!
She was like: that ‘good posture while nursing or it won’t work’ guy is a complete perv, & that posture gimmick is a bunch of BS. 💀😬🤣
Me sitting here with scoliosis realizing I was born in a much better era for people with bad posture lol.
never heard about these nude shots, I started college Aug 1972, UCSD, I'm sure none of us would of gone along with this.
We started in 1974 at PSU & we would NEVER participate in such photography.
Lance is no slouch on history...
🙂
I guess when my Grandparents spoke of the "good old days" they forgot about this episode in history along with many others.
I remember the posture craze. when I was a youngster there was a kid's show that came on in which sometimes the kids would balance a basket on their heads to promote good posture. It was called a posture basket. This would have been in the late 60s. I think the show was called Romper Room.
That's correct. I remember that same show, but I saw it in the early 60s. And as I recall, the posture exercise was shown for about 30 or 60 seconds on every episode, where the kids would walk in a circle with the "posture baskets" on their heads. I think the circle that they walked on was marked on the floor. Funny, but 60 years later, that's really the only specific thing that I can remember happening on that show.
I remember being tested for posture when I was little. It was 3rd or 4th grade. My whole class was taken to the nurse's office. We went in two or three at a time. I don't remember having to take my clothes off, but I was asked to sit up straight and the nurse looked at me and tapped on my spine a few times.
I first read it as 'nude pasture photos' and was intrigued.
I believe most of the emphasis on good posture in my elementary days was to keep us sitting still in our seats and pay attention. We did have scoliosis screenings, but nothing for posture.
We had posture day in PE when I was in 10th grade. It was very humiliating to those not chosen as Miss Posture. My mom said this couldn’t be possible for her daughter to be eliminated because I was a dancer, swimmer, runner. Lmao.
I have a question though, how many remember the physical exam in 8th grade. All of us standing in our underwear (pants and undershirts or bras if you wore them) and being weighed and measured.
Got sent home with a note asking my same dear mama why I didn’t wear a bra yet. Mom’s reply: why would she? There’s nothing there! 🤦♀️ I guess I was lucky it was Denver and cold enough to need an undershirt. 🥶
Public education is a quagmire 😮
15:11 The old man probably went through something similar, but when Daddy's Little Princess complained, only *THEN* did something need to be done