They need to incorporate some sort of anti-50/50 mechanic that you get to use once per match or something. Like a super version of a heat burst that goes through unblockables and lows. Coz the forced 50/50s back to back turns Tekken into casino gaming innit
I think a big part of this game's success compared to previous Tekkens in terms of player retention and people picking up the game is precisely these forced 50 50s. It makes the game much easier to digest, and it made me stick with it as opposed to dropping tekken 7 very early on. When you have strong baked in offense with little counterplay, it leads to players feeling good when they win, and when they lose they think "should have guessed better on that". Which is less frustrating than the intense reliance on frame data knowledge that previous tekkens had. This game still has it but the difference is you can win off forced 50 50s, you can start your offense with heat burst, and get out of oppressive strings as well with heat burst. One of the things that makes 2d fighters easier to digest is that you have situations with less options and very little counterplay, such as the classic simple 50 50 strike/throw of street fighter and the very simple knockdown RPS of reversal, block, or tech. Tekken 8 is trying to do its own version of that with the forced 50 50s, and I think ultimately this type of gameplay will get more people into the series.
I kinda disagree. The forced 50/50 thing has done its job to get new people into the game yes. But long term, I don't think it's really healthy because people will most likely get sick of it because they know what's coming. At least in the current state that it's in. I don't really think the forced 50/50 thing is the issue, the issue is that they're very easy to do and you're not really risking anything by doing it. Just look at Dragunov and Jin, arguably the two characters that are the best at forcing these type of situations. Like it's absolutely bonkers how Dragunov can just press one button and make you start guessing for your life. How Jin can just start pressing good buttons and he forces you to play on his terms, no matter how many times you did the right thing. Xiaoyu is great at this too, but what makes it more digestible than Drag or Jin is because hers is locked behind heat. It's still pretty dumb though, don't get me wrong. Her heat mix up needs more toning down because it acts as an "I Win" button right now. It should just be a resource that gives Xiaoyu a slight advantage, not an outright almost guaranteed victory. But yeah, if they're so insistent on keeping this mechanic, there should at least be a cost to them. It's personally why I think Xiaoyu is better designed than Drag and Jin in this game because there's actually a cost to doing her insane mix up game (even if it's not enough right now) while characters like Drag, Jin, Alisa, Law, and Feng, do not or they risk so little, that they might as well just be for free.
@@noname144able I think even if you nerf these problematic characters forced 50 50s are part of the core system mechanics with heat engagers and heat in general, I think all characters benefit from this type of gameplay, it's just that drag and jin are particularly egregious examples. I think the old core Tekken fanbase is probably not a fan of this new direction but unfortunately from experience this is how you get more people to stick with learning the game. They can slightly nerf and adjust things but it'll always be a part of the game.
"knowing what's coming" may sound boring and dull to you, but this is unironically the direction fighting games go to make it appealing for newcomers, because for such a complicated game like Tekken where there's multiple things you can do in a given situation compared to 2d fighters, it makes the learning process really difficult.
that's why I say it's not the forced 50/50 that is the issue, but rather how easy it is and how there's barely any strategic element to it. Like it's not hard for Drag to press QCF4 and then he puts his opponent in a blender and if they guess wrong, they die for it. It's not hard for Law to frame trap his opponent into being jab punishable, and then he kills them for it if they guess wrong. It's not hard for Jin to go into Heat and just YOLO his wall splatting heat smash where if they get hit, they die and if they block, they're still put into a blender and he STILL has the advantage. That's why I used Xiaoyu as an example. Unlike Drag, Jin, Alisa, etc., Xiaoyu needs to properly set up the situation for when she can pop her "I Win" button. She can't just randomly throw out her back turned Heat Smash to force her opponents into guessing because if they try to do that with no thought, she's actually putting herself at huge risk due to the factors she needs to do to access it because she can't block while she has her back turned and she has to go into Heat on top of that to achieve it. Not to mention it's so easy to telegraph too, unlike Alisa just randomly popping out chainsaws for very little cost and there's nothing you can do about it but guess for your life, especially in Heat. My point here is that there is potential to make the forced 50/50 mechanic interesting that's demonstrated by Xiaoyu. The mechanic wouldn't feel as tedious as it does if there is simply a strategic element to it. What they did with Heat Burst is another good example. It's still a strong panic button that forces a guessing game, but if you don't use it correctly or if the opponent was able to get a proper read on it, you die for it, or at least, you're paying a huge amount of your life for abusing it with no thought put into it. And what I meant by 'might get boring' is that I'm talking long term too. It may seem fun for now, but how long can casuals keep their interest with Drag constantly hitting them with QCF4 into forced 50/50s again and again until they ultimately get sick of it? How long can they get hit by Jin's Demon Paw over and over and get tired of it? Again, the issue here isn't the mechanic, it's how easily accessible it is and how there's very little risk involved into doing them, at least on certain characters it's more noticeable than others.
Jin neutral options are far to great. IMO. If you nerf yoshi's back 3 or back 4 though, you would need to buff his side step. Yoshi is prolly bottom 4 or 5 for side movement. Also his heat smash, prolly one of the most steppable heat smash in the game. Very bad tracking. Coming from a yoshi main. :)
You're trying they don't need to nerf his side step if they nerf the spin. You saying "coming from a Yoshi main", is exactly why we shouldn't listen to you
@@symonheiloguu Having a hard time reading and understand this part of your comment: "You're trying they don't need to nerf..." What I'm saying is, because yoshi's side step is already bad, we have to rely on back 3 and back 4 a lot to get out of certain positions that other character can step out of at no cost. But as yoshi, we can take a smaller cost (let's say big cost is yoshi is hit in the interaction and small cost is hp lost when he spins) to be neutral (frame wise) in the interaction. Therefore net-cost wise, if a yoshi back 3 or back 4 they're already at a lost, and then you can add the frequency at which this interaction happens, the cost and benfits evens out, therefore it's balanced. In terms of the "...as a yoshi main part" its more of saying I've labbed at lot of things with yoshi to make this statement. How much have you lab?
Good video. You’re not the only one that feels this way, you’re just one of the few content creators that share their unfiltered opinions. 🙏 thank you
They need to incorporate some sort of anti-50/50 mechanic that you get to use once per match or something. Like a super version of a heat burst that goes through unblockables and lows. Coz the forced 50/50s back to back turns Tekken into casino gaming innit
loved every single word, thanks KJ
Now THIS is respect for the opinion.
I think a big part of this game's success compared to previous Tekkens in terms of player retention and people picking up the game is precisely these forced 50 50s. It makes the game much easier to digest, and it made me stick with it as opposed to dropping tekken 7 very early on.
When you have strong baked in offense with little counterplay, it leads to players feeling good when they win, and when they lose they think "should have guessed better on that". Which is less frustrating than the intense reliance on frame data knowledge that previous tekkens had. This game still has it but the difference is you can win off forced 50 50s, you can start your offense with heat burst, and get out of oppressive strings as well with heat burst.
One of the things that makes 2d fighters easier to digest is that you have situations with less options and very little counterplay, such as the classic simple 50 50 strike/throw of street fighter and the very simple knockdown RPS of reversal, block, or tech. Tekken 8 is trying to do its own version of that with the forced 50 50s, and I think ultimately this type of gameplay will get more people into the series.
I kinda disagree. The forced 50/50 thing has done its job to get new people into the game yes.
But long term, I don't think it's really healthy because people will most likely get sick of it because they know what's coming.
At least in the current state that it's in. I don't really think the forced 50/50 thing is the issue, the issue is that they're very easy to do and you're not really risking anything by doing it.
Just look at Dragunov and Jin, arguably the two characters that are the best at forcing these type of situations.
Like it's absolutely bonkers how Dragunov can just press one button and make you start guessing for your life. How Jin can just start pressing good buttons and he forces you to play on his terms, no matter how many times you did the right thing.
Xiaoyu is great at this too, but what makes it more digestible than Drag or Jin is because hers is locked behind heat.
It's still pretty dumb though, don't get me wrong. Her heat mix up needs more toning down because it acts as an "I Win" button right now. It should just be a resource that gives Xiaoyu a slight advantage, not an outright almost guaranteed victory.
But yeah, if they're so insistent on keeping this mechanic, there should at least be a cost to them.
It's personally why I think Xiaoyu is better designed than Drag and Jin in this game because there's actually a cost to doing her insane mix up game (even if it's not enough right now) while characters like Drag, Jin, Alisa, Law, and Feng, do not or they risk so little, that they might as well just be for free.
@@noname144able I think even if you nerf these problematic characters forced 50 50s are part of the core system mechanics with heat engagers and heat in general, I think all characters benefit from this type of gameplay, it's just that drag and jin are particularly egregious examples. I think the old core Tekken fanbase is probably not a fan of this new direction but unfortunately from experience this is how you get more people to stick with learning the game. They can slightly nerf and adjust things but it'll always be a part of the game.
"knowing what's coming" may sound boring and dull to you, but this is unironically the direction fighting games go to make it appealing for newcomers, because for such a complicated game like Tekken where there's multiple things you can do in a given situation compared to 2d fighters, it makes the learning process really difficult.
that's why I say it's not the forced 50/50 that is the issue, but rather how easy it is and how there's barely any strategic element to it.
Like it's not hard for Drag to press QCF4 and then he puts his opponent in a blender and if they guess wrong, they die for it.
It's not hard for Law to frame trap his opponent into being jab punishable, and then he kills them for it if they guess wrong.
It's not hard for Jin to go into Heat and just YOLO his wall splatting heat smash where if they get hit, they die and if they block, they're still put into a blender and he STILL has the advantage.
That's why I used Xiaoyu as an example. Unlike Drag, Jin, Alisa, etc., Xiaoyu needs to properly set up the situation for when she can pop her "I Win" button.
She can't just randomly throw out her back turned Heat Smash to force her opponents into guessing because if they try to do that with no thought, she's actually putting herself at huge risk due to the factors she needs to do to access it because she can't block while she has her back turned and she has to go into Heat on top of that to achieve it.
Not to mention it's so easy to telegraph too, unlike Alisa just randomly popping out chainsaws for very little cost and there's nothing you can do about it but guess for your life, especially in Heat.
My point here is that there is potential to make the forced 50/50 mechanic interesting that's demonstrated by Xiaoyu.
The mechanic wouldn't feel as tedious as it does if there is simply a strategic element to it.
What they did with Heat Burst is another good example.
It's still a strong panic button that forces a guessing game, but if you don't use it correctly or if the opponent was able to get a proper read on it, you die for it, or at least, you're paying a huge amount of your life for abusing it with no thought put into it.
And what I meant by 'might get boring' is that I'm talking long term too. It may seem fun for now, but how long can casuals keep their interest with Drag constantly hitting them with QCF4 into forced 50/50s again and again until they ultimately get sick of it?
How long can they get hit by Jin's Demon Paw over and over and get tired of it?
Again, the issue here isn't the mechanic, it's how easily accessible it is and how there's very little risk involved into doing them, at least on certain characters it's more noticeable than others.
@@noname144able Ling has cost? Are you joking right?
People have been giving fair criticisms to the game forever and the main issues are still here.
Jin neutral options are far to great. IMO.
If you nerf yoshi's back 3 or back 4 though, you would need to buff his side step. Yoshi is prolly bottom 4 or 5 for side movement.
Also his heat smash, prolly one of the most steppable heat smash in the game. Very bad tracking.
Coming from a yoshi main. :)
Jin is objectively top 1
You're trying they don't need to nerf his side step if they nerf the spin.
You saying "coming from a Yoshi main", is exactly why we shouldn't listen to you
@@symonheiloguu Having a hard time reading and understand this part of your comment: "You're trying they don't need to nerf..."
What I'm saying is, because yoshi's side step is already bad, we have to rely on back 3 and back 4 a lot to get out of certain positions that other character can step out of at no cost. But as yoshi, we can take a smaller cost (let's say big cost is yoshi is hit in the interaction and small cost is hp lost when he spins) to be neutral (frame wise) in the interaction. Therefore net-cost wise, if a yoshi back 3 or back 4 they're already at a lost, and then you can add the frequency at which this interaction happens, the cost and benfits evens out, therefore it's balanced.
In terms of the "...as a yoshi main part" its more of saying I've labbed at lot of things with yoshi to make this statement.
How much have you lab?