10 Albums that Killed Prog | It was not Punk...
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You had me a "2112, A Farewell to Kings and Hemispheres, the three greatest prog rock albums ever..." My first bought with lawn mowing money was 1976 at the age of 15 was 2112 and never looked back. Yes, was the proverbial HS nerd...
This is great! I love both prog and punk. I never cared for the "culture war" the music press tried to create. And I think many music fans actually feel this way. I think both sub-genres are quite over the top, and I love it.
You make a great point about the very nature of "progressive rock." It's not just about creating a set of rules and then sticking to them forever. The very spirit of the sub-genre is to keep innovating.
I am over in the US, and we had a different experience with the whole "punk vs prog" thing. Punk was really never mainstream here until bands like Green Day in the 90s. New Wave was popular, but The Clash were really the only "pure punk" band to be a household name (and, as you mention, they incorporated many styles). By contrast, punks took over Top Of The Pops (to paraphrase Billy Idol/Generation X) in the UK. There was never some mass rejection of prog here, even though Rolling Stone Magazine tried their best. The Ramones were bigger in the UK than here. True prog bands competed more with "AOR" bands here, and, even then, the fan groups were far from mutually exclusive. I am sure you know all this, but I just find it interesting.
BTW, I love VDGG, and that Nadir's Big Chance album is what got me into them.
Radiohead has a couple of prog-punk type tracks like Bodysnatchers (from the basement is best).
Spot on.
I came up in mid-late 70's LA and am forever grateful that there were a handful of years there before the mohawk and safety pin purity tests of the SoCal hardcore scene swallowed everything in its path.
The knuckleheads who suddenly had enemies lists that would CERTAINLY include the psychobilly roots rock of X, the Blasters, Los Lobos and Gun Club.
Never mind a guy like Peter Gabriel - who had been keeping a foot in both worlds for years by the time the Circle Jerks arrived.
Or the Stranglers - who owed so much of their early skin crawling nihilism to Dave Greenfield and his unabashed tributes to Ray Manzarek (a key figure they shared with X)
I was busy taking it all in - David Grisman and Stephane Grappelli, Television, Genesis and Floyd, Ramones, Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac, Miles and the early Quintet, Gentle Giant, JJ Cale, Ry Cooder, Stooges, The Band, Minutemen, Doc Watson.
The minute anybody asked me to put on a uniform I walked away every time.
Still do.
Cardiacs are the best Prog Punk band. You'll like them.
Lots of the punks I knew were ex-proggers, and Hammill commanded particular respect. And was there ever a more prog LP than Wire's second? Pomp of course was beyond the pale... :)
I think it's telling how contrived the "rivalry" is that there was one magazine interview in 1981 where Robert Fripp and Joe Strummer complimented each other's work. Not to mention that Johnny Rotten's a pretty big Van der Graaf fan that incorporated Krautrock influences into his next band Public Image, Inc.
Lone Rhino in the background there. One of my personal faves that.
Beat me to it.
Adrian signed my copy a few years back lol
Love Adrian Belew. I've seen him perform many times. What a fantastic performer.
Nice to see Adrian Belew over your shoulder. As always, you led us on an entertaining and informative ramble. Thanks!
Adrian has a new album out called BEAT ..... a name suggested to him by Robert Fripp .... I have not heard any of it but from what I understand ... it is songs from the three King Crimson albums that he was part of .... he is working with Tony Levin, Steve Vie and a great drummer ... I can't think of his name right now
@@scratchinscotty7702 Danny Carey on drums. Sounds intriguing to me. I’ve seen Adrian quite a few times, solo and with the Power Trio. And twice with KC.
Adrian's Power Trio is no joke. Julie Slick is Webster-levels of talented.@@markdrechsler5660
The band that shows the progression from punk to prog is Wire. The evolution from Pink Flag to 154 goes from The Ramones to Pink Floyd in sound within two years. There were interesting proto punk bands that had Prog elements like the Doctors of Madness.
I was going to point out that Wire and those three albums are “prog in miniature”. Pink Flag is “punking punk” where you take that punk aesthetic to its ultimate conclusion. Chairs Missing and 154 anticipates what a whole host of bands would do from hereon in.
Yes indeed, though I'd say at heart Wire were proggers opening with a punk LP rather than developing from punk to prog. Chairs Missing remains supremely prog - they even had the label to go with it!
Agreed 154 is a prog rock/ punk rock masterpiece.
I used to call Wire, 'Punk Floyd'. Never really caught on, though.
@@brianbell3836 but it makes sense for those of us who know.
You have nailed it with your commentary about Genesis. The line between "old Genesis" and "new Genesis" is drawn not between pre- and post-Gabriel, but between pre- and post-Hackett. One need only listen to Hackett's post-Genesis music to see that he was the force behind Genesis's continued progressive style until 1977 or so. I would love to hear a collaboration between Tony Banks and Steve Hackett, which I think would capture the essence of Genesis much more than the Banks-Rutherford collaboration that we ended up with in the form of Calling All Stations.
Hackett's performance at the Roxy/ Hollywood in 1981 was a life-changing show for me. This was as intense and dark as prog ever was. The band at that time was perfect chemistry with an insanely powerful sound & presence: Steve + John Hackett (flute) Chas Cronk (bass) Nick Magnus (keys) and Ian Mosley (drums). He played ALL of the heavy stuff that night... the Taurus pedals were literally shaking the damn building.
Sadly a Banks-Hackett collaboration is the least likely pairing of the classic 5 members.
Hackett is usually overshadowed by other prog guitar gods because his tastefulness masks his virtuosity. But he's assembled a marvelous body of work.
@@talastra Agreed. He is the absolute master of melody and less is more. I often contrast him with Steve Howe and if I could only listen to one of them from now on in, it would be Hackett without a shadow of a doubt.
'but between pre- and post-Hackett' - 100% agree. I've always felt this to be the case and I'm somewhat surprised more people aren't of the same opinion.
Ironic that Sid Vicious was named after his aggressive pet hamster that was named after Syd Barrett.
Several attempts to employ Syd Barett as a record producer (including one by Jamie Reid on behalf of the😊 Sex Pistols, and another by the Damned) were fruitless. (Wikipedia: Syd Barett).
Yes stranglers keyboard player Dave Greenfield is one of the greatest prog players hidden in a new wave band of all time.
I think XTC can be very Prog at times.
The band, XTC, is The Beatles of the 1980s and 1990s.
Never got the mass appeal they wholly deserved!
I' ve often thought that!!@@michaeljozwiak25
I love some XTC. From "Neon Shuffle" to "Senses Working Overtime". Great band.
Totally agree, just listen to Complicated Game.
Your comment about prog drawing in but retaining it's esthetic heart is spot on... I've had the experience a couple of times of listening to a late prog album that was dismissed by people as pop-y and still finding depth there. Love Camel into the 80s for example.
and even in the 90s.
@@Jobotubular haven't delved this deep yet 😉
I would include the Who's "Quadraphenia", one of the first urban prog albums and an excellent blend of prog and proto-punk.
I definitely agree. The Who had a hand in influencing both genres.
I got nothing against the Who (apart from the silly name) but "protopunk"...? What would you say Iggy & the Stooges were doing up there in Michigan? Or the MC5, the Sonics, the Trashmen... Punk music was blooming in the States while in the UK they were playing 25' "prog gems".
@@bassaniobrokenhart5045 The Who predates both The Stooges and MC5 and both have cited them as an influence. Punk wasn't just an American phenomenon, there were plenty of British bands that had a influence on punk, The Who included. Also, there's way more sillier band names than The Who. The name creates a sense of mystery and intrigue, and it's easy to use for puns(i.e. The Who Sell Out, Who's Next, The Who By Numbers, Who Are You).
@@KamenSentaiMetalHero Ok. First, The Who were never punk. Just because they broke their guitars and drums and stuff, that doesn't mean they were punk. The World Health Organisation is a silly name. Even if you read it "who"; just like Them and many other stupid names. The Animals is a great name.
Now: MC5 -1963; The Trashmen -1962; the Stooges -1967 (but cited the Sonics -1960, btw, as an influence). The Who, 1964. In any case, none of those American bands called themselves "punk", since punk as a label exploded in the UK. So, your comment makes no sense; "there were plenty of British bands that had a influence on punk"¿?
Anyway, around 1975, the music you'd hear at the pub was mostly reggae.
@@bassaniobrokenhart5045 that's why the term proto-punk exist. It's a retrospective label given to bands that paved the way for punk. And that label certainly applies to The Who in their early years both in sound(they were considerably louder and more aggressive than most British rock groups at the time, especially live) and lyrics(the rebellious attitude expressed in My Generation and Anyway Anyhow Anywhere, the sardonic nature of songs like It's Not True, A Legal Matter, and Substitute, the subversive themes of I'm a Boy and Pictures of Lily, etc), as well as the fact that they smashed up their gear. Also, The MC5 was formed in 1964 not 1963, and they didn't even release their first record until 1969 anyway so my previous point still stands. As for the name thing, I guess we're just gonna have to agree to disagree.
Sandinista, Metal Box, Doc at the Radar Station, Closer, & Remain in Light were on constant rotation during a pivotal stretch.
If any music genre dies it's usually because it kills itself, not because of some other genre killing it.
Gna, that is true to some extent but incidents like Elivis, British Invasion/Beatles, Punk, Nirvana, Strokes make strong case for a new player entering the scene and wiping everything out that was before them. Young people have been the main carriers of pop culture for a long time now and they are very fickle, so things get old quickly and that has nothing to do with the quality of the thing itself.
/Agree.
another reason is cultural shift. another factor is how easily is to play and if people are willing to play said style for fun. it why jazz has shrunk so much because it so complex that not fun to play. punk encourages it listeners to learn to play it. which why as subgenre of rock it lasted so long.
I think OK Computer which is a very progressive record killed brit-pop and Noel still hates them maybe that's a big reason why.@@pfzt
@@pfzt I have seen several changes in the music industry, which is what it is, an industry that exploits art for sales and money. I grew up in the 1970s and listened to 1980s music but even when that music "ended" due to a dominance by pop and rap, it hadn't ended. The Beatles and others before them made a lifetime career of making music, something very unusual, and so while their music may be ignored by the trendsetters and tastemakers, it doesn't die because it was supported and is supported by people then and now.. What I find appaling at times is how the media plays a role in deciding what is important, whether Rolling Stone or these mass produced magazines for Coldplay, Van Halen, etc. There should be a magazine for Survivor, Triumph, etc but these magazine moguls are more impressed by Taylor Swift and image and selling copy rather than acknowledging music beyond a narrow scope of theirs.
I always thought The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway heralded a tentative but significant shift. Gabriel essentially drags Genesis out of the Surrey countryside into the sewers of New York. The entire aesthetic of the cover (shot by Peter Christopherson, later of Throbbing Gristle, who, incidentally Genesis sound very much like on ‘The Waiting Room’) is stark, dark and raw. In the music, one can hear the tension between Gabriels desire to ‘get real’ and the rest of the bands attempt to retreat to pastoral whimsy. Then the tour, where Pete sports a motorbike jacket and jeans before emerging out of a giant cock dressed as a venereal disease, Well! things were certainly heading for a change.
The album was all about becoming more commercial and selling more records, which Gabriel knew was going to change the music for the worse
This was the swan song for the great art produced by the band!
The Lamb lies down on Broadway it was all the record company wanting Genesis becoming more commercial
Gabriel didn't want to go in that direction, so this album was the swan song for his part in the band!
I'm feel exactly the same at the time..."ok! it is real not the ancient Genesis, it is here and now music...", prog or not!
It was indeed very different to what had gone before. I never took to it, tbh, and soon punk was to sweep such things aside: maybe it's time to give it another listen to see what they were doing.
@@davepx1 In all fairness, the idea that punk swept progressive music aside is not borne out by the facts. Compare record sales and attendance figures of a band like Genesis though 76/77/78/79 etc with The Clash, The Damned, The Stranglers etc. Floyd released The Wall in 1980, a commercial success that any punk/new wave band could only dream about.
Excellent video, as always. Two more points to support your assertion: The Prog Father Robert Fripp went on to produce Peter Gabriel after Crimson dissolved, and also produced a Hall & Oates albumand a Darryl Hall solo album, both closer to prog than pop. Also, The Stranglers Black and White pointed the way, but The Gospel According to The Meninblack is unequivocally prog. Thanks for all the knowledge!
The Gospel According to The Meninblack : weird pop for me. Great album. Well, maybe not "great" per se... Very listenable AND interesting.
Fripp as a producer is generally a failure. He does extremely much better on his solo album Exposure.
You should be a lecture teacher on the genres of music. People may disagree about your opinion as I see already but you have such an eclectic admiration for so many genres and indeed have been a part of so many. I do enjoy your musings and connections you make. In so many cases I disagree about your selections but that is purely subjective. Your understanding of what was going on with eras and time periods in rock is what should excite and engage everyone who tunes in to your channel and we all will appreciate better how it all happened and evolved. That is where your magic as a teacher is
I can’t remember where I read it but I’m sure John Lydon said that Brainstorm, from Doremi Farsol Latido by Hawkwind, was a major inspiration for the Sex Pistol sound.
Rob Calvert was at his wedding so seems plausible.
At last, someone acknowledging the true masters of prog : VDGG.
Prog's prog ! Banton-Jackson-Evans-Hammill - genius!
I believe Andy did not acknowledge VDGG as a great Prog group. He mentioned his weak interest in that group and mentioned they were somewhat weak or flimsy.
@@vinylwood He will get there. He seems a bit new to the Peter Hammill world.
They broke all the rules, even the prog ones.
@@vinylwood Not sure he meant weak or flimsy cause of all the words in the English language - "weak or flimsy" are the least words that come to mind when describing VDGG. Maybe "morbid" and "impenetrable" would IMHO be more accurate.
You're right about Hacket.
Maybe those four excellent Brian Eno albums from 1973-1978 can illustrate the transformation of prog in the 70's. Gabriel was aware of changes happening in music and he brought Eno on board to help with the "Lamb". Just a thought....
Finally somebody talks about Peter Hammill again. 🙂 Thanks, Andy.
Great analysis - not just overall, but the albums and the reasons. Might be the best-argued video essay I've seen in weeks.
Glad you enjoyed it!
"Owner Of A Lonely Heart" got to #69 on the American R&B Charts. Trevor Horn sampled the Fairlight "stabs" of the song on several Art Of Noise tracks which were all over Black American radio in the 1980s as well as being essential break dancing staples.
I would definately site REAL LIFE by MAGAZINE released in june 1978 as being a good point to start.Here is a band with brilliant players, John Mcgeoch on guitar and totaly innovative Barry Adamson on bass a wonderfull bassist and later in demand session guy played with loads of big names, Dave Formula also with visage and others and Howard Devoto an acclaimed lyricist, Martin Jackson on drums who later formed Swing out sister.
This band made prog cool again using all the musical ingrediants of older bands ,bass,guitar, keyboards drums but rewrote the book adding a cinematic quality and very much heavier subject matter and no cliches to be found,this is a amazing debut after only months of being together.I think this album is outstanding for it's time,landmark!!!!
Certainly agree with what you say about Magazine, although Secondhand Daylight was always my favourite Magazine album. I would add the rather quirky stuff from The Associates, especially The Affectionate Punch, and even early Simple Minds - go take another listen to Sons and Fascination/Sister Feelings Call and thank God they managed that before the stadiums became their favoured stomping ground.
Do you know Suicide (Alan Vega/Martin Rev)? They took electronic music in a similar hardened-up direction. Very NYC 1980s.
@@digoryjohns2018absolutely agree Secondhand Daylight is even more prog and kind of Ennio Morecone/John Barry cinematic drama I think all of this band liked all kinds of genres in music and you can tell.As for The Associates I love their first three albums and I love 4th draw down, amazing atmospheric compositions again I see how great they where to create a sound so unique and musical.As for Simple Minds I really like This fear of Gods.I think the generation after the sixties found early prog themes too immature and wanted something relatable to their time; the middle seventies was a rough angry place and the niave hippy dream had all but evapourated
@@nicholaspetergagg7769 LOL, Secondhand Daylight as an Ennio Morricone drama - great comparison, I'd never thought of it like that, but you're right: Howard Devoto's spaghetti western! I always thought of it as more of a J G Ballard horror show, something Cronenberg should have made a movie of.
Funny what you say about the 70s. I was born in 1957 so the seventies for me spanned 13-23 years old (i.e. my formative years). I was vaguely aware in the background of the 3-day week in the UK, the oil crisis, inflation, activist unions and the 'birth' of Thatcherism. But none of it affected me. My everyday experience was from a lower-middle-class home, Dad's Army, Morecambe & Wise, University - receiving a grant in those days - and a bit of a dabble in psychedelics and spirituality (um, that would be the hippy dream). In other words: stability. I was fertile ground for all prog themes, sci-fi books/films and anything fantasy.
All followed by an easy job in IT during the 80s.
For me the aggro started sometime in the 90s. So my reality-show was delayed by 20 years. I finally woke up with grunge.
When I first heard Real Life I had no knowledge at all about who the band was or the band members histories and I considered it prog, albeit prog with a more punchy feel to it. I still love that album. It has great playing, interesting songs, proggy arrangements.
I would argue that Secondhand Daylight is a full on Prog album!
Classic Prog died the day Steve Hackett left Genesis. Apparently, Johnny Rotten was a big Jethro Tull fan. Agree with you about Fripp. He kept progressing.
Yes, Johnny Rotten said he liked Aqualung. He also rated very highly ''Nadirs big Chance''' by Peter Hammill as well as Van der Graaf themselves. In a way you can see where some punk chaos was born.
There is a story that Kurt Cobain admired Red.
I really hope it's true, it wouldn't surprise me at all.@@donaldanderson6604
You are the reason that after all these years, i finally understand Jeff Beck, and via my hifi, i can hear the special nuances you describe. I get it now. I never understood what "its in the fingers" meant, thought it was all a bunch of bull, a note is a note. And i even listen to prog as well. Didnt realize someone could be so controlled and precise and perfect, beyond other players. You and Beatto.
So agree that the key dividing line in Genesis is Hackett, not Gabriel!!!
Depends what you are dividing
The shift from classic@@AndyEdwardsDrummer The shift from classic Genesis to more commercial Genesis
The Wall had an incredible impact when it came out and still does. Waters has never come close to this masterpiece since. I was fortunate to see it performed in 2010. Astonishing! Interesting, thought provoking video.
Excellent look into the transition from prog to punk! I like that you are not dogmatic, but instead balanced and insightful and you have some surprises for us!
I was waiting Dire Straits to be in this list. The Police was also first in my mind when I saw the title. Fantastic video.
Great commentary. Agree with all that you say, esp. : when Hackett left Genesis, Crimson's "Discipline", and Yes' "90125". For me Thomas Dolby's "The Golden Age Of Wireless" is a touchstone for the Prog transition/evolution you describe.
I don't think Dolby is Prog, he's just fan-fucking-tastic :) I love how his voice sounds.
Rush's "Spirit of Radio" is a good radio advert, which no doubt helped it get airplay. But it is specifically a tribute to a Toronto-area radio FM station, CFNY. CFNY initially was operating a small transmitter out of Brampton, a small town close enough to reach Toronto. They were an old-school '70's FM station that would play whole album sides during the night, and had a proto new-agey Sunday night show, "The Eclectic Spirit", where they'd intercut tracks by bands like Tangerine Dream with poetry and spoken musings. They also had a Sunday dinnertime import show that debuted bands like The Cure, Siouxsie, OMD, U2 and Bauhaus, etc before anyone else was playing that. In its heyday they were a really refreshing break from loud, gimmicky AM and dull FM in that region.
Yes you're absolutely correct. I totally forgot 102.1 CFNY was the inspiration for "Spirit of Radio". I remember Neil mentioning this way way back in an interview. Even though I was a Q107 listener(classic rock) at the time (no longer) I respected CFNY for their originality and uniqueness. I don't recall a Toronto radio station with a similar format.
Don't worry that your videos go long.
You are a jazz man. Sometimes the tangents are the point. The improvisation is the magic.
It counts as much for the monologue TH-cam video as it does for a song or a movie.
Yes, Miles Davis is Prog.
John Lydon was a huge Can fan. I hope he does go on your channel, that would be a fascinating show.
Lydon was good friends with Keith Emerson .. his next door neighbor in LA .
In his biography, Lydon talks about walking around in his jacket with Hawkwind embroided across the back.
But I am Damo Suzuki
@@scitsalcoryp Thank heaven it wasn't Roger Waters, there might have been problems! 🤣
I'll add the Mike Olfield evolution to the progressive musicians that went beyond. After a huge personal change Oldfield put out the hit single "Guilty" in 1978 and than went in a new direction with the albums "Platinum" (1979), "QE2" (1980), "Five miles out"(1982) and then "Crisis"((1983). From Tubular bells to Moonlight Shadow is a huge change, while maintaining his style and prog elements
An interesting and insightful take as always Andy. Definitely agree re Black And White also albums like Meninblack and The Raven continued the prog legacy. Also stuff like Gang Of 4 with the album Entertainment which also incorporated funk. That scratchy angular guitar sound was very influential on subsequent bands like The Rapture. Also and this one might be controversial but the Slits first album Cut. Popular wisdom had it they couldn't play but I think their limitations in a way made them more experimental. It also contains one of my favourite covers of Heard It Through The Grapevine along with Creedence's cover.As you say John Lydon was very candid about his influences back in the day, VDG, Hawkwind, Can and his favourite Kate Bush album is The Dreaming one of her most proggy efforts. I think I've only heard you mention them once but Talk Talk were very proggy and also influenced what became known as post rock. Spirit Of Eden is a masterpiece and Laughing Stock isn't far behind. Finally Andy regarding Bill Laswell, are you familiar with the Sly and Robbie album Rhythm Killers. It's a brilliant rock/funk album. Came out in 1987 and it grabbed my attention through the single from it Boops which has got a great pummeling bass line. I was also getting into Funkadelic at the time so bought it because it had Bootsy Collins on it. Basically it's mixed to be a continuous piece of music on each side with the tracks running into each other. The opening songs on both sides are covers, the Ohio Players Fire on side 1 and The Pointer Sisters Yes We Can on side 2. Well worth checking out if you're not familiar with it.
6:08 Wow... You weren't kidding. I had NEVER heard this before. Thank you.🤙
Great commentary of the hidden journey! I look forward to the next episode 🙄 ...
I see I'm too late to post the first comment on Ivo Watts-Russell's 4AD label. But I was young enough in the 1980s to make a weekly pilgrimage to Beggar's Banquet Records in Kingston (that's Surrey not Hull) to buy albums from their own label, from Factory and of course from 4AD. Oh, dearie-me, how would I have survived the 80s without Dead Can Dance, Cocteau Twins, The Wolfgang Press, The The, This Mortal Coil and Throwing Muses. To dismiss any of this as mere 'dream pop' is to miss the point (and the era) entirely.
Yep, I was an old proggie who was deep into the 4AD world in the 80s. An expensive hobby for a broke young man in the States!
Early prog was great, but it steadily got more and more up it's own backside. My dad and uncle loved prog back then. I remember that Johnny Rotten appearance on Radio in 77, he played Reggae, Tim Buckley, all sorts. I agree, "Trick Of The Tail" is Genesis at it's best, in my humble opinion.
"Ripples" for sure, but I'm not sure the whole thing can stand next to Supper's Ready, Can Utility and the Coast-Liners (or whatever that was called), Seven Stones, or even the song about Fang, son of Great Fang.
Mr. Edwards, another great video. Don't concern yourself with the length, we all enjoy them. OMG, I am NOT the only one underwhelmed by 'The Wall.' I was 23 when it came out and liked it on the first couple of hearings. 'Comfortably Numb' is one of the all time great Floyd tunes, hands down. But I felt then (as I do now) they had said it all before on 'Animals' (my personal favorite Floyd album) and 'Wish You Were Here.' They even touched, briefly, on some themes on 'The Division Bell.' Enough with complaining about the English school system. As for Rush, one of the greatest progressions/evolutions in music. I felt they really had 'progressive' chops emerging on the surface with 'Grace Under Pressure' although one can see that direction emerging through previous albums and they only got consistently better. In any case, that's my take. Keep the videos coming. Perhaps a deep-dive into the work of Jeff Beck? - Shawn Walsh
Well done.
Very insightful.
JT
You had my attention when the 1st album you showed was one of pH's (and *this* one!), and then VDGG was discussed… Lifelong VDGG and pH fan here. Hammill is one of the most "unknown" influential and important musicians ever, having influenced dozens and dozens of more famous musicians. And yes, Hammill's music indeed is an acquired taste, but once you get to appreciate it, there's no turning back.
To me, Nadir has always been, since I first heard it somewhere in the late 70ies as a 16-something kid, the obvious first punk album (and thus one of the lesser pH albums in my personal ranking of them). And all through the years I've never encountered someone saying that -- until now! Great story about John Lydon playing 2 tracks of Nadir. Never knew that. Happy to learn that I'm not as crazy as some make me out to be :).
Okay, finished the video… That was great, you got a new subscriber. Your entire monologue is "confirmation bias" of the pleasant kind :). Keep it up…
I listened to the gig the Stranglers did whilst Hugh Cornwell was in prison, they had a load of guest singers and guitarists, including Peter Hammill and Robert Fripp. It’s well worth a listen to this if you are into the stranglers and are not aware of it. It is on YT.
Hammill is on fire on Tank, but he has always had a punky edge to his vocals
thanks i had no idea
That live had been released in cd some years ago.
Now that is a prog video that tells me something I never heard before. Very insightful, thank you very much!
"Discipline" is such a fabulous album. It still sounds revolutionary today.
My fave KC LP
I can´t stand it, nor anything that came after. IMHO, King Crimson ended with "Red".
@@miguelbarahona6636 I can see where you are coming from. They are essentially from different bands. I like both, but I can understand why lots of people don't.
@@IanBourneMusic Yes, in the 80s they became a different band. All that comes to my mind is The Elephant Talk, and I, to this day, ask "why?". But my friends love both eras. Cheers!
bicker bicker bicker
Always thought that Genesis' The Lamb album had some pretty punk & new wave elements in it, and more generally a kind of urban sound that doesn't fit in our common sense of what prog is supposed to be. And you're right about Peter Hamill and Robert Fripp, who crossed and broke all the boundaries between subgenres we thought to be strictly separated. Thanks for your point!
There's a good section in the excellent doc "Prog Rock Britannia" by the BBC on this, close to the end. Wakeman, in his funny way, talks about how prog was almost fordidden in record stores; Ian Anderson says that Johnny Rotten publicly stated that he stated J Tull, but many years later stated that Aqualung was a big inspiration; Phil Collins tells the story when he met Rat Scabies... Scabies made sure no one one was watching and told Phil "I'm a big fan of yours". Funny and at the same interesting.
I always love it when musicians talk music history and lineage, they have a completely differnt view than the mainstream narritive
Sandanista!!!! Topper is quite the underrated drummer imho. Great video man. Were the same age and your take on music and cultural impact really resonate! 🥁🥁🥁🥁
That third Peter Gabriel and Kate Bush's The Dreaming were huge albums among my friends. We also were giant Talking Heads and XTC fans. All were prog bands, if you look at them right.
I think if Andy had his way even Pavarotti was prog😂
TH and XTC were not prog. Come on.
Talking Heads we’re certainly “ Art Rock” in the beginning, just the association with Brian Eno. Discipline era KC sounds a lot like TH. And Fripp was a big fan of the Talking Heads, I believe David Byrne is on his Exposure slbum
Robert Fripp collaborated with The Talking Heads on the album, “Fear Of Music”.
I think you got some bad acid. The talking heads are not prog.
Don't forget that Andy Summers of The Police collaborated with Robert Fripp on 2 albums - Andy Summers and Robert Fripp - I Advance Masked (my fave) and Bewitched . There's probably much more to say about Andy's career as he is the oldest member of The Police, and is a very creative guitarist, hence his collaboration with Robert Fripp.
Neither collaborative album is terribly interesting, unfortunately.
Thank you Andy. Great essay. As always. I was a little confused when you mentioned Black and White (great album) and Golden Brown (great song) as if it was on Black and White. I double checked it’s on La folie. Yours in pedantry … 😊
I love an anal retentive pedant...and it's not in 5/8 either
FYI for Fripp, his solo album Exposure, ProjeKct X, KC's USA (the versions with Starless and Fracture on them), soundscapes (especially in Argentina)
FYI for Hammill: In Camera ("The Comet, the Course, the Tail"), Chameleon ("Rock n Role", punk before punk?), Silent Corner and the Empty Stage ("A Louse is Not A Home"), A Black Box ("Flight"), Patience, Roaring Forties, the Noise, This, Fall of the House of Usher
I thought what killed Prog was Johnny Rotten's "I hate Pink Floyd" t-shirt as well as how they called the author of Tubular Bells "Mike Oldfart" despite being 24... (I read MO's autobiography, he was quite hurt by that).
But ironically, "Animals" (recorded in 1976 and released around the same time as Sex Pistols hit the charts) has a punk/new-wave vibe on at least one track. "Pigs" has the searing anger, bite and scathing put-down lines that many new wave bands aspired to, and a dirty, deliberately grimy-edged sound - even though it's done with a level of musicianship that was completely beyond any punk band in 1977.
@@louise_roseDefinitely right about Animals. When it came out I remember reading a review in Melody Maker and the headline was Punk Floyd. Roger was almost certainly listening to punk at the time and taking inspiration from it.
@@FloatingAnarchy61 ...and ironically, Joy Division , three years later, recorded "Closer" at the Floyd's Britannia Row studios.
@@louise_roseMostly the content of the lyrics, not the compositions .
@@dimitrispapadimitriou5622 Agree, but "Pigs" has a dirty, kinda abrasive sound quality that gives it a sort of musical kinship with New Wave (still in the future at the time)
Fun video!
I don’t agree completely with everything you put forth but much of it.
And, evidently you get Sandinista! That thing is epic and damn near perfect.
Fascinating proposition and I think you make an excellent case. Remember that, whatever you think of it, Asia's debut album was #1 album in USA for 1982- you may not care for that particular KIND of progression but it is progression. (In fact, I direct people often to UK's discography which, though short, is a definite progression that eventually leads to that album.)
Nice to hear the Stranglers mentioned, Black and White, The Raven-two of my all time favorites and utterly unique.
Television always struck me as a prog band with punk leanings
Nope, sorry.
I feel its more the other way around, they were most definitely a punk band but that didn't mean they didn't borrow or get some inspiration from prog related material based on their sound.
A fact: rock musicians in the late seventies were exposed to prog rock when they were younger. What we listen to when we are young is an unavoidable imprinting that shapes our musical taste. Therefore, cross-contamination is, in most cases, unavoidable. Johny Lydon is one example : he often cited experimental German rock as a genre he listened to.
I remember him mentioning Can in an interview.
JAMES
Insightful. What we all intuitively knew but somehow couldn't allow ourselves to say out loud.
I'd love to hear you do a video on Phillip Goodhand-Tait - Phillip Goodhand-Tait
Label: 20th Century Records - T-424
I found an unopened nos 1973 copy of this record around 15 years ago and refrained from opening it for over a year, but I could wait no longer. I couldn't find him on TH-cam or anywhere. When I put it on I was delighted! It truly is a great album that deserves a good review.
Peter Gabriel's Car (1st one) felt like he was trying 9 different things. I like it, though.
I think you mis-titled this video, it should be the 10 albums that kept Prog going. I was a die hard punk from late 76 - 82ish, but I still kept in touch with Prog. There are 2 bands that I stuck with over the years, King Crimson and Roxy Music; both Prog and very different.
As a side note most of the punks I knew had Pawn Hearts in their collection.
Interesting video as always. Like the fact that Andy's music selections and opinions are thoughtful and unpredictable. Personally think that Genesis's 'Lamb Lies Down on Broadway' was a forerunner of what became Goth, but not sure if anyone else agrees with me. Glad that there is a mention of 'Black and White' and 'Metal Box' . Both are great albums.
I'm not sure that I would have ever considered "Lamb" to have been a precursor to Goth, but I can see your point, on the second album in particular. There is a definite melancholy, grey, minor key contemplative shading to quite a few of the songs that fits the aesthetic. Good call.
I would say that VDGG is closer to being a proto-Goth band.
@@KamenSentaiMetalHeroAgree completely
Excellent content, as you really put prog in its perspective. I was wondering if you read David Weigel’s book on Prog Rock. I’m reading it now and it’s pretty interesting. I never knew that Robert Fripp recorded an unreleased album, with of all people, Daryll Hall of Hall&Oates!
It was very much released, 'Sacred Songs' in 1980 I believe. It's just ok.
Bowie 'Low' was the sea-change for me in '77. I loved the synthesizer sound more than anything about prog, and prog pretty much had that to themselves from 72-75 (with a few exceptions like Stevie Wonder). But 'Low' was wall-to-wall synths, funky, futuristic, experimental, Eno, Kraftwerk etc. That's what was 'progressive', different in 1977. And Bowie's short haircut looked real cool and modern. I think half of us prog fans moved on to punk/New Wave (OMD, Talking Heads, Joy Division, Wire, etc.) the other half stayed with the dinosaurs and/or prog-metal.
What about Parliment/Funkadelic? I would class them as prog rock too.
Donna Summer too!
I have a Wax Cylinder recording from 1897, and it’s total Prog Rock!
@@joefilter2923Station to Station as well. OP is right, prog just kept growing, instead of stagnating.
Love Beach, AKA, The Chest Hair Extravaganza!
how on earth did they ever go from the amazing art of H. R. Giger - to that cheesy cover photo ?
@@billyz5088 They were clearly inspired by Frampton's cover for I'm In You, and who wouldn't be.
@@user-go1jm7ib6j or some Bee Gee's albums.
Great list, loving this. Yes bold move releasing that record and it still sounds incredible and very listenable 👍🏻👍🏻
Andy , here's a topic for you ; vocal harmonies in
Progressive Rock . Subscribed by the way :)
100% correct on Steve Hackett being the spirit of Genesis.
Tell me how many COMPLETE SONGS did Steve Hackett write for Genesis. I bet you can't come up with more than 5 that would be considered Classics. No collaborations. Just Hackett.
@@kbrewski1 You're missing the point. There was a change of direction by Genesis very quickly after he left, and he is the only one still keeping the spirit of the original band alive. Not saying 80's or 90's Genesis were bad, but they were totally different to the prog rock champions of the 70's
@leonmarkrodziewicz279
I grow so weary of this false narrative that the second Gabriel and/or Hackett left Genesis, they almost instantly became a 4 minute pop band. Its so tiresome. There was plenty of great Progressive Rock on ATTWT and Duke. Did the amount of longer complex tracks start decreasing in the 80s, yes, but the reality was they survived as a band, unlike many other Prog bands that either didn't survive into the 80s (ELP, Gentle Giant to name a few), or were a mere shadow of themselves (Renaissance, Kansas, Pink Floyd split, Supertramp split, Yes split etc). Genesis put out plenty of great music, and kept the Progressiveness alive better than most other old bands. Epics like Abacab, Home by the Sea, Domino, Fading Lights were concert highlights and they always played plenty of 70s Prog. Genesis was smart enough to know they couldn't try to regurgitate Suppers Ready and Cinema Show over and over. They were always top notch live.
What great Progressive epics did Hackett compose in the 80s that would have drastically changed Genesis' sound? After his first 4 albums, the pickins in the 80s got slimmer and slimmer. I'm a huge Hackett fan, I've seen every single Genesis Revisited Tour he's done live, I've got all his Blu Ray live sets etc, but lets be honest, Steve hooked his wagon to the Genesis Revisted name and he's done very well pulling in dough and selling product. Just saw his Foxtrot show last week. I'm glad he's doing them. I saw him a few times before he was playing a lot of Genesis tunes, and the venues were much smaller and the crowds even smaller.
In an ideal world, the Classic Lineup would have remained together for 20>30 years past 1975, but Gabriel and Hackett chose to leave for more control, independence and $$$. No one at that time could have predicted Phil's massive success. All in all, I'll treasure the 10 times on 6 different tours I saw Genesis. They were a great Progressive Rock band to the end, which I regard as 2007, when Phil was still strong and drumming along with Chester.
I would have been fine if 2007 was the last tour.
@@kbrewski1 It's all about musical tastes and opinions. Life would be boring if we all felt the same.
What a fantastic video have a wonderful weekend Andy also what is your favorite instruments ❤❤❤❤❤❤😊😊😊😊😊😊😊
Everything
Superb segment! I’ve put Nadir's Big Chance on my playlist.
Fascinating. At the time, I did not like 90125 at all. Now I love it and do not understand why it is not generally considered a great Yes album. Great video! I am also a huge advocate of Sandinista, though I think London Calling is brilliant too.
Because normies like Owner of a Lonely Heart, pretty much. Some progheads can be stupidly territorial.
I think 90125 is how you make a mainstream prog album. It's inventive radio friendly with great production
Frampton Comes Alive. Obviously not prog, but it did symbolize the end of the 10 minute plus, long song era. that embodied many progressive rock songs of the 1970's.
Nicely argued and supported!
A very well balanced observation. Totally agree with the list and my favourite Punk bands (apart from Stiff Little Fingers maybe) all developed in the same way Progressive Rock bands did. After all, where else can you go after three chords at 160 bpm? ;)
In order to continue the quest to find how prog evolved do you suppose a careful examination of the NURSE WITH WOUND list would help as well?
Thanx Andy. Always a pleasure to learn and re learn … and you provide that well.
Strangler’s Black and White! What a marvel!
I’m off to drive my very own tank!….yes I am!!
I remember that nobody around me liked Discipline. For me, the Non-Progger, they made a Record that had a Clarity that took me in. Great Stuff.
Kevin Coyne meets the Ruts is the great Marriage of Prog and Punk.
I remember nobody around me liked King Crimson. They were all about Genesis or Yes. So when Discipline came out, it stayed in its own peculiar lane.
Duran Duran's debut album has some very heavy prog elements, believe it or not (Tel Aviv, Waiting for the Nightboat)..
The departure of Andy Taylor changed that playing around with atmospherics, some complexity and lots of good musicianship..
What about Siouxsie and the Banshees? That's an example of a streamlined, non-virtuosic prog band if there ever was one (though Budgie was his own type of virtuosic drummer, and John McGeogh seemed to channel bits of Robert Fripp in his dark angular minimalist chord voicings.) And then there was the 4AD label - a beautiful specimen of post-punk as an offshoot of prog. The music on 4AD was adventurous, experimental, poetic, outlandish and (mostly) dispensed with the "visceral" music and approach of traditional rock and punk. (I say mostly because the Pixies and Bauhaus were both on 4AD, and both bands rocked when they wanted to.) I loved 4AD music from the first time I heard the Cocteau Twins, this Mortal Coil, Wolfgang Press, etc, and I now realize it was because these recordings and the aesthetic vision they embodied aligned very well with my love of prog. The same is true for many of the underground "post punk" bands of that era.
Big, big thumbs up for the mention of 4AD. Ivo's vision was possibly the closing bookend of the opening from the British, starting in the early 60s. Everything since has been depressingly derivative. And, yes, I mean you Blur and Oasis (though I might make an exception of The Verve)!
Also Tuxedomoon, Chrome, The Residents, Snakefinger...
Really progressive musicians, with every meaning of the word.
@@digoryjohns2018 there's a lot of neo-punk and neo-post-punk out there (if that's not an oxymoron), but yeah very derivative of music from this era but often with better production values. Kids these days.
@@dimitrispapadimitriou5622 Definitely. Loved all those bands you mentioned! Black Flag is an interesting example as well; if you listen to their stuff from ~ 83/84. Lots of weird dissonant riffs and guitar solos from Greg Ginn,some of the latter approaching free jazz.
@@kevincorrigan7893 But I'm inclined to agree with Andy himself that the 'better production values' - or at least the technology which enables them - are themselves the problem. Autotune, rhythm and tonal correction, micro editing of the recording; they become fetishes which get in the way of creativity. The ancient Greeks would introduce a small mistake in order to achieve perfection and, more recently, Victorian ladies would do the same thing: the beauty spot on their otherwise perfectly made-up faces.
I don't claim to be anywhere near up-to-date with modern music but do hear enough to build an opinion and, I would say, that Billy Eilish & Finneas O'Connell create some of the best around - but still it has an antiseptic, untouchable artificiality about it. Compare that with Keren Ann's work (with the notable exception of 101 which has that polished sheen) which sounds notably old-fashioned, although it's not.
And... one moment, what's that I hear...? Oh, AI's just arrived!
Thank you for this, really good analysis. But please, give London Calling Album a second chance. It´s great, and big influence on music since then.
Great analysis, incisive summaries. I have not heard a more-informed description of how 90125 came about. Kudos for revisiting Love Beach with fresh ears, and for connecting nominally punk albums with the prog aesthetic. It is too easy for many to lapse into a prescriptive view: that prog should be such-and-such, because that's what the speaker judged to be definitive -- as if these artists knew or determined how art should develop, rather than being products of discovery.
"90125" - and especially "Owner Of A Lonely Heart" - is one of the most startling-sounding things ever created.
Brilliant Vlog Andy, you are indeed England's Rick Beato but with more depth of knowledge tbh 😊
I think you mean more hot air and ego.
There are no genres, there's just music!!
I own The lamb, UK, Dark side, Octopus, English Settlement, Never mind the bollocks, Stratus, Truth, The Raven that refused to sing, Physical graffiti and Tao of the Dead to name but a tiny amount!!
I just love the music. Don't care about pigeon holing it!!
The original Kansas incorporated hard rock guitars in many of their tracks.
And JT Minstrel in The Gallery is a straight up headbanger 🤟
Love this enthusiastic presentation
Very interesting thoughts. I agree with most of them. There is just another thing: I call this the NME/ Rolling Stone/Mojo aspect. The media truely wanted to kill the music that had happened before 1976. That sort narrative still persist. It depicts Morrisey as God and Paul Weller as Jesus and later Noel Gallagher as the Holy Ghost. The attitude is rather like: How dare you not worship at the altar of The Smiths, How dare you listen to that hippie shit that WE TOLD YOU was bad for you. That sets the tone through the 80’s for both Prog and not least Heavy Metal for decades to come. The punk aesthetic is the truth for them.
28:59
I agree, except the dropped Morrisey when did not toe the party line
For me the post/post-punk era was a natural progression from the bombastic prog of early 70s. There was so much going on and experimentation. Nothing existed in a vacuum. Yes and Rush had great success in the 80s.
Nice bit of Lone Rhino in the backround. And Ricky Nadir rules.
What a superb essay, Andy.
90125 is my favorite YES album. It’s a masterpeice
You can't discount the influence of cannabis and hallucinogens. For many '70s rock fans who were drug users progressive rock was the musical choice for background music to their drug-induced mental states and activities. Styx even made a song about these people: "Light Up."
Bands such as Yes; Emerson, Lake & Palmer; King Crimson, Pink Floyd, Frank Zappa & The Mothers/Mothers of Invention, Gentle Giant, Nektar, Captain Beyond, Utopia, Hawkwind, Oz Knozz, Gong, and Rush were among the artists this group of drug users were into.
Yes, I remember art rock or Progressive Rock was in the 70’s referred to as Head music! There is a reason!
Really great presentation. I don't agree with everything you say, but a very inspiring discussion.
Fantastic video! Now, where is prog rock at right now?
What ever the genre, in the end everything comes down to personal taste and what emotions we are feeling on the journey of our lives influences us, greatly, I whole heatedly agree about 'a trick of the tall' it is a masterpiece
and as you said 'The Wall is patchy and brilliant, I was listening to a mid twenty year old reviewer yesterday
and he was shaken by Deja Vu, it was speaking to him, he could not stop playing it, if an album is timeless, there is no greater compliment, this would get into any ones top ten albums and will be rediscovered in hundreds of years time, I have also rediscovered Randy Rhoads a classically trained Rock guitarist who died at 25 years old, he is better than Hackett or Page, Osbourne struck gold when he met him, he was almost as good as Hendrix
'in the end everything comes down to personal taste' This is really not the case, and your post actually argues this. If not delete the second paragraph, it is made meaningless by the first
Finally people understand that "Sandinista" is a cornicopia of different styles and risk taking. Never an album before or since has been so misunderstood. The Clash did 4 classic albums and 2 crap albums ("Combat Rock" and "Cut the crap") is still a great legacy.
I'd have to disagree regarding Combat Rock. Side 2 is weaker than side 1 granted but songs like Know Your Rights, Rock The Casbah and especially Straight To Hell are up there with their best. I own all their albums apart from Cut The Crap which to be honest I've never heard apart from the track This Is England. I honestly wouldn't want to sully their memory. There are a lot of prog elements to the first Big Audio Dynamite album which would have been a much better swansong if it had been released as a Clash album.
Very insightful. As a huge VanDerGraaf fan I was shocked by Nadir and had to adjust to it and later the KBand. It was my feeling then that prog was over. I had the same feeling with the first Gabriel. And Then there Were Three is a different story. It just plain made me very sad indeed. P.S... I love The Silent Corner..." A Louse is Not a Home was a VDGG song and was played at future concerts. Also Randy California plays on Red Shift. Awesome. PPS. You Tube gave me a present when it introduced me to a master of AustroRock, namely Hubert von Goisern. His stuff is all over the musical map from prog to funk to rap and lovely melodies. Check him out. I've been listening to greatest hits. The live stuff is incredible. And he yodels....Thanks for your videos and drumming.