The required com is cable, cable., cable probably because ATC might only hear one or two cables because of radio interference during an emergency situation. The controler should have never interpreted one cable to mean lower the cable.
If the brief is that he's not going to use the cable then I can see why the controller could move it. I'm trying to power up, cable. I don't want to roll over it with hydraulic problems, cable. I told you I'm not going to use that cable get it out of my way so you don't make things worse for me.
This stupid bullshit cost us guys a shit load of money ! Fellas - We expect & demand a much Higher degree of professionalism - We know that it is available ! Fellers … ? No person is perfect - for Gods sake , Do extremely good - really fuckin ‘ good eh ? Try hard ! Be safe . Don’t be cool - Please !
Plausible also that pilots routinely called cable, once, to lower the cable. BTW I've seen a Strike Eagle catch a cable (left gear unlock indication), left main collapsed, left wing tank drug the ground and caught fire. Crew opened the canopy, jumped out and were unharmed. Jet was in our hangar for 3-4 months and they flew it to a higher repair station.
Hot words like that always ping me. In the Herk, the only person allowed to say the word "green" was the Nav, because "GREEN LIGHT" was the final call to throw things out of the plane. People, heavy equipment, whatever, items are going out of the aircraft when anyone hears "GREEN." The rule was so prevalent that even in the office, we said things like "lime colored" to avoid saying the color. "Cable" in this context should have held such reverence. I'm not ATC, but I'd think that if I even heard one "cable," I'm assuming the transmission got clipped. Just like my first aerobatic instructor told me, I won't hear the second and third "Bailout" calls, because he'll already be under canopy.
Speaking of call signs.... You must have had one, right Juan? I've been watching both of you guys for a long time but I don't remember ever hearing you talk about it. A question for both of you.... We have the F-15's based out of PDX. You can always tell when the Eagles are about to come in because the cable comes up/out of the runway. Is that something we just have in Portland or do they have them everywhere? Wondering if Juan sees them at other airports. Does Mover see them when he lands? Are they ever a hazard for either of you. I never noticed them before someone pointed them out to me.. Now I can't NOT see them.
Good breakdown Mover. That entire Cable call as yiu said was a crux issue overlooked it appears by the AIB. Imagine saying one “Mayday” instead of “Mayday Mayday Mayday” and ATC assume ops are normal. Lots of lessons cheers.
Hell. Most commercial pilots dont even say the full mayday mayday mayday anymore. It's usually either a single mayday, the controller declaring an emergency for the pilots after they describe their problem, or the pilots just say that they are declaring an emergency.
I once asked a Thunderbird maintainer about the tailhook on the F-16 and he just looked at me dumb and said that only Navy jets have tailhooks. Blew my mind that someone could work on the jet every day and not know that it existed.
Good life lesson. Once you make a plan, include in the plan the conditions to deviate from the plan, and then execute it. Second guessing mid-execution without a major unforeseen cause is letting RNJesus take the wheel. That assumes you made the right plan to start with :-) An example is briefing an engine failure on takeoff, and then deciding to try the impossible turn when it happens. Rarely ends well.
As a retired civilian ATC I see a change to phraseology coming, with specific wording to lower the cable, ie. unless the pilot says "LOWER the cable" the cable will remain extended. Like everything else we did in the agency, it was screw ups that changed policy, proactive changes rarely occured.
If there is any question, they should default to keeping the cable deployed. Seems really silly to do the opposite, especially if it's already deployed.
Same in fleet truck operations. Everything is reactive. Somebody screws up? Make a new rule. Problem solved. Until the next screw up, then it's rinse and repeat. So glad I'm retired and don't have to deal with any more of that shinola.
@@quivallagreat idea on that front. Would be really good to keep the phrases as different as possible (while still being quick and memorable) so they can't be confused with each other.
I was a Crew Chief (USAF) at Eglin AFB (Test Wing) in 1978, my jet (F-4E 66-0295) was tasked with "Barrier Verification", and after a half dozen engagements, the aircraft returned to chocks. The tailhook "shoe" was FUBAR, and I had to pull panels for "special inspection", but otherwise it was a good day. It was pretty cool watching the jet doing "drag racing" and how fast the barrier stops a big pig.
As an F-35 mechanic, these accident breakdowns hold valuble information to identifiy and prevent future accidents. Unfortunetly, the big AF can be pretty reactive when it comes to aviation maintenance and somtimes forms a culture that normalizes deviance. I hope that unit takes this information to heart for the maintainers.
I hope they do too. Though, the amount of focus given to the pilot's mistakes in the report, rather than on the issues with ATC and Maintenance practices, makes me fear that this might be a case of the investigators attempting to effectively throw the pilot under the bus so they don't have to change practices. Mover did say at the beginning of the video, this type of public release is generally more focused on laying blame than outlining the institutional reforms that come out of accidents so maybe it's just the slant of it being that kind of document. Though I honestly don't like that either. It reinforces the idea in my mind that there is an institutional culture of finding scapegoats for problems that can be publicly lambasted rather than attempting to implement actual improvements.
Surely the reason the call is "Cable Cable Cable" in to cover the eventuality that the whole transmission isn't received? So, the whole One Cable = Down, Three Cables = Up makes no sense at all.
Agreed, it's the reason Mayday Mayday Mayday is x3... As is Pan Pan Pan etc... You only need to hear it once to know there is a problem/instruction... Can't imagine there would be any adverse reaction to leaving it up in an abnormal situation like this... Controller has deffo been given a get out of jail card on this one....
You say "Mayday" three times because it takes three seconds to say it. And therefore if you are stepping on someone else's average two-word transmission, you eventually get through on clear air by spamming. One call has a certain probability of simply canceling someone else's call into radio static.
Retired AF Fire guy here and have reset hundreds of BAK-9 portable and BAK-12 Arresting Systems. Technically, the ‘absorbing system’ is tape on a spool connected to B-52 brakes in a pit on either side of the runway. Thankfully, the crew survived. Great content!
Excellent assessment Mover. From the MX side, 14 year F-15 crew chief and 11 year MX officer says you’re spot on. Have no idea why the barrier would be lowered on the runoff end regardless of pilot comms on a hydraulic failure. Also, pilot should have pulled the Emergency steer/brake handle. Deal with the bullshit on Friday afternoon vs. putting her the lake. 20/20 hindsight.
As a 43151c Crew Chief (back in the day when C and D models were brand new(1978)) this is very interesting. I kind of take issue with the notion that going around for a second attempt could've been a better outcome. If there is not enough juice to lift the speed brake and the brakes are inoperative then that bodes poorly for the flight control system as well best to stay on the ground no matter what. As you pointed out, the cable should have stayed up, is the bottom line. That's where the problem was from my easy chair perspective. Also Hydro specialist crew screwed up missing the main defect which started the whole thing.
Agree with your assessment. If "Cable" doesn't mean "lower the cable", the ATC should never have lowered the cable. I wouldn't put the "non-standard phraseology" completely on the pilot. It was the right word - just not repeated. ATC assumed the pilot had landed safely - he shouldn't have assumed that without confirming it.
Spent 4-years at Kingsley in the 70's and got my private at base aero club. It's high (4k), it's hot (or snowy), and it's bouncy. In my day the SOF was given a dodge pickup truck or van with lights and a radio, and they spent most of their time on the ramp.
Given that the jet had a known hydraulic leak and resulting failures (speedbrake, etc), I can see why the MP was not keen on the idea of getting airborne again.
It has 3 Hydraulic systems, utility system running radar antenna if equipped with old system, gear, flaps, speedbrake, brakes and inlet ramps. It also has utility non reservoir level sensing which will continue to pump remaining utility system fluid until it's empty. The utility B light was his first indicator of a leak and don't always trust the indication of psi because they have been known to fail indicating pressure when it doesn't exist. You trust the Utility A or Utility B lights because they are mechanical rather than electrical. The arresting hook and emergency brake function was his last options period. The failure of lowering the cable ultimately caused the final issue of the jet going off the runway. It's been awhile but I dont remember if they would have even noticed the hydraulic leak under those circumstances if the FOHE was never driven into an overheat condition started circulating the hydraulic fluid through the heat exchanger system. Guess that would depends on where the failure was on the heat exchanger itself. Hydraulic mules rarely get the fluid up to temp let alone to a degree that the FOHE would actually make it start to circulate through the heat exchanger.
On Navy and Marine Corps bases, the arresting cable was always fixed in my day 50+ years ago. I hope that has not changed. Done both. Used it one time to stop an A-4 Skyhawk with a no oil pressure landing emergency. And in another incident, it was derigged intentionally with my emergency gear up landing with a single belly tank not to catch the wire and spin out of control.
2014 EAA, F16 had a mishap. It and a wingman were doing a demo outside of the air show that day. MP gets an hyd's warning. Lands on runway 36, full length. Has no brakes, over runs the runway and ends up on the grass before runway 5/23, with a nose wheel collapse and radome snapped off.
Good review and your assessments seem spot on. Glad no one was seriously hurt. The cable comm mess up was really unfortunate. I strongly agree with your comments about old jets!
Two things come to mind: 1- Using Cable to lower the cable could confuse things further with communication interruptions when the pilot says it three times but ATC hears it only once 2- With no hydraulics on the F-15, can it be safely flown? Since the airbrake didn’t completely deploy, wouldn’t it be risky to take off with it or land without it if it did stow but couldn’t be deployed on the second try? Great video! Thanks for sharing!
Here at the cemetery lies a 104 pilot who had hit the barrier doing an unplanned go around, miscommunication left the barrier up flipping the almost flying jet upside down leaving the pilot no chance. But yes, I do agree, hot words should only be used for their "hot" situation.
Thanks Mover. Great breakdown. Watched an F4 bounce the cable at Nellis and go around with the drogue chute deployed. He successfully made it back around with barely any ⛽️remaining.
I appreciate the review and the breakdown of the incident. As you speculate, ATC had a much larger role in this incident especially when moving focus from an emergency aircraft to the traffic pattern.
Good summary, Mover. Points to ponder: (1) The SOF was in his vehicle out on the airfield, not in the tower, so he was not able to intervene in the local controller's actions (I believe several ANG units utilize their SOFs like this). (2) Although not addressed in the AIB report, it appears that the pilot did not shut off his engines when departing the runway (the checklist was changed after this mishap to remind pilots of this). If normal braking was not available, then neither was nosewheel steering. The rudders provide some directional control > 70kts, but below that, differential power would be about the only way to steer the jet on the ground without pulling the emergency brake/steering handle (you get both emergency brakes and emergency nosewheel steering when you pull the handle). (3) The pilot had 3 decisions points where he could have chosen to execute a go-around. The first after he noticed the brakes failed (which was the briefed option). The second after he heard the ATC controller lower the cable, and third, after he missed the departure-end cable (there was still enough runway/overrun to get airborne, but the pucker factor would have been substantial). During a go-around with total utility hydraulic failure, all flight controls would respond normally, but the gear and hook would remain down. The partially extended speedbrake would retract as airspeed increased. (4) Shack on the ejection decision, especially after hitting the ski jump berm before the drainage canal at 50+kts and getting airborne. He's lucky the jet didn't flip over and trap him underwater in the canal.
As I understand it Carrier jets with the hook don't just have the hook, but a stronger airframe to support the hook, to stop the aircraft very quickly. So AF jets have the hook to use in emergencies, but they save weight with less support for it, so can't stop as quickly as Carrier aircraft do. Is that an accurate characterisation?
The cable should have remained up, it's the fail safe state, no harm would have occurred if it had remained up. The decision to lower it was in my opinion a primary cause of the crash.
Let's consider worst case scenario, which is basically where things ended up. Don't need the cable, leave it up, maybe the cable gets damaged unnecessarily vs loss of aircraft. Cables are just a tad less expensive than an aircraft...
My schoolhouse for Vipers and Eagles. "Land of No Slack." Unfortunate series of events. Glad nobody was seriously hurt. TYPICALLY It is alway communicated in plain English approaching departure end if you wanted to have the cable lowered because you were going to have to taxi over it , by stating such. "Tower (CS) you can lower the departure end cable " or "Tower (CS) cleared to lower dept. end cable" etc. It's "normally " specified as to which cable just to take ambiguity out of it, but not always. Your point about a single call of "cable" is valid. **But additionally when you are leading a 4/2 multi ship and there are jets landing behind you, you never lower the departure end cable as number one, because your bros behind you might need it. The tower person (should) know that as well. But again the responsibility is on the MA. The declared emergency situation might have changed many perceptions, assuming the other jets were in a hold awaiting tower and fire to clear the runway for landing after MA was going to clear.
I grew up in Klamath Falls in the 70’-90’s and we live on Altamont Drive about 2 1/2 miles from the end of the north end of the runway and having F4’s flying over your house on final is something you don’t forget, it was normal to stop all conversations as they flew over since there was no way you could hear anything with those engines howling. We’ve seen all kinds of wild stuff over the years, there was an F-16 crash in I think 1995 where the F-16 hit the ground while in full afterburner out in Lake County where they do their fighter training and the largest part they could find was something the size of your fist….damn. Kingsley is at around 3,700 AGL altitude and we have some weird winds up there that can pop up without warning on seemingly the calmest of days, I remember my grandad landing our Cessna 206 and he had to crab it on final at nearly 45 degrees where I could see right down the runway in the back seat and he held that until he transitioned straight right when the stall indicator started howling. As for the F-15, the first thing I was thinking was why didn’t he just take off again?this will buy him more time to go through a checklist over the radio and discuss what happened during the first attempt and see if the symptoms indicated a specific system or component failure that an experienced pilot or maintenance tech could advise him on. In the Infantry I lived by one motto; “assumption is the mother of all fuck ups!” Never, ever assume anything.
I used to fly one round trip every week out of PDX where the Air Guard has the F-15's. I always parked on the top of the parkade. A lot of times I would try and get there early to hopefully see the Eagles fly. The way to tell they were coming in was when they would raise the cable. When the cable came up you knew it would be minutes before a couple F-15's would be landing.
This was Kingslyfield. About 20 miles southeast of Roseburg and that's 187 miles south of Portland. Your talking about the 142nd fighter wing. Unfortunately these days I don't have a chance to see them land or take off as I have to work x.x sad panda.
I’m surprised that the A-10 doesn’t have a hook considering how much of its design went into expecting it to experience severe battle damage. (Redundant hydraulic systems, landing gear still works even when retracted)
It would have been useful if the AIB determined whether the use of the singular "cable" had been routinely used to indicate that the pilot wanted the cable lowered.
I was an Air Force controller and your assessment is spot on. The controller should have verified prior to lowering cable. Prior to being a controller I was an F-15 crew chief. It’s a toss up to discern between minor (aceptable..yes aceptable) leaks and grounding leaks. The amount of servicing could be an indicator of trouble to come but if servicing occurred between different shifts, may have not been noticed by crew chiefs. The line maint supv. ( Msgt or above in my day) should have caught how much hydraulic fluid the jet took if it was an excessive amount and not released the acft. Same goes to pilot accepting aircraft. Looking back… I ( in error) would tell butter bars, when questioned about leaks, “ are you going to buy it or fly it”. I enjoy the breakdown of these incidents. Thank you.
Reminds me point of sale card readers. Many of them place the words "Please do not" on one line and "Remove card" on a second line. Then, transaction complete, you get "Please remove card". Why is "remove" used at all in the first message?! You get a glare off the glass and yoink I early every once a while and now everyone's latte is delayed.
21+ year AF. crew chief here the F-15 was my first bird and still my love, F-16's were 2nd assignment, and finally the KC-10. I'm confused as to why we were penny wise and dollar foolish. the cable is way cheaper to replace than an entire aircraft or even a life, I have never been aware of this practice and hopefully the practice has been discontinued AF. wide and directives sent out. secondly the maintenance people need to have their feet held to the fire and find out there the whole not fully documenting maintenance thing is okay, red x conditions were skipped, that kind of stuff just cannot happen, where were the maintenance leadership who are trusted to insure all the steps were followed. and if u break the chain steps are missed in the process, this could have turned out really bad for the pilots and potentially civilians on the ground. it cannot be allowed to happen and should never happen. surely some of the blame falls on the maintenance unit also.
Is there anything seriously negative that can happen if the jet goes over the cable but doesn't necessarily need it? I just thought they would keep the cable up in an emergency situation no matter what, until they had to recover the other aircraft obviously.
But if the pilot had the arresting hook down and the plan was for a go around, it could have also been misinterpreted that he needed the cable down in order to go around.
Exactly what I was thinking as a possibility - since everyone knew the cable was up, why did the pilot call out "cable?" I agree ATC might have been thinking he wanted the cable out of his way to do a go-around. None of this is easy, which is why they spend so much time (and money) training.
another question sop who worked on this Aircraft before signing of on it being on flight Roster i just watched Fortress on tubi too bone up on my Actrinums 4 milatary in that film.
Its kind of wild to think that they identified the need for cable, brought it up, and then decided to put it back down. The tower could see what was going on.
Hi, I really enjoyed this particular briefing and really appreciate the precision and insight you help us learn from the aftermath. “Normalization of Deviance” is right on; in fact, I now wonder whether the USAF actually possesses ANY automated End-to-End oversight & records monitoring system that includes maintenance activities along with ops? This is assuming they don’t still use strictly manual/analog/paper-based records. If DOD doesn’t formally employ some form of all-inclusive “Continuous Process Improvement“, as well as in each of the services, then what kind of quality assurance program is actually being employed? If none exist,then the only result can be “Management by Crisis“. Please tell me it isn’t as bad as all that!? Thanks, Mark Portland, MAINE
Question: Are F-15 flight surfaces hydraulically operated? If so, are they on the same hydraulic system as the brakes? I could see a last minute decision in light of brake inoperability, to hook the cable instead of doing a go-around if there was a risk of losing flight controls.
Was just at Avon Park the end of March. Beautiful area, was a little weird having the prison/jail on base and seeing them maintaining the area, but it was pristine.
I suppose a jet is totalled when it went into the drink? The impact at 50mph itself was obviously more than enough to take it out, but I'm wondering about the water part. Or would that alone get fixed with a lot of expensive depot time?.
Mover, quick question: Confirm that the BAK-12 is surface mounted and can not be remotely adjusted and only the BAK-14 system can be lowered below the runway level? Or is the BAK-12 B an equivalent to the latter one? Many thx from Germany.
The airport that I used to work at many years ago had an Air National Guard Base with F-16s. They landed with a drag chute. Is that practice no longer used or does the F-15 not use those?
I was wondering if you were going to make a video about this. I was in Klamath Falls that day. I didn't witness it, but I was wondering why everything stopped.
I'm gonna say it- ATC committed the biggest eff up here. Not gonna second-guess the guy in the cockpit trying to manage the emergency in millisecond increments
Improvising the plan in milliseconds was the pilot's mistake. He should have stuck to the plan, there was no good reason to deviate. If at the last second he thought there was a reason to deviate he should have hit the gas and gone back up to revaluate.
@jerseyshoredroneservices225 have you ever lost hydraulics in your car's steering or braking system? I have; it's terrifying. And my car doesn't even fly, so having a hydraulic problem and visually verifying hydraulic fluid leaking on a JET means I'm getting on the ground NOW. Like, yesterday-type-of-NOW. Losing control authority in a jet on the ground is scary; losing control authority in a jet in the sky is likely game over. In hindsight, I think the real screw up was the pilot's initial plan to abort and go around. Once his wheels hit the tarmac, his plan should never have entertained limping a leaking and hydraulically-challenged jet back into the sky. Especially with such a long runway and availability of arresting cables.
@@brysonfitzgerald5238 Yes I have lost power steering and all breaking a few times. My car was manufactured in 1995 and it's been in the northeast rust belt ever since so I've lost a few brake lines LOL. This pilot didn't lose controls he his plane was flying just perfectly and he had all the time in the world to come up with a plan on how to land it. If you watch the video they didn't mention anything about loss of controls and everybody involved agreed that the plan was to hit the gas and go back up, because the plane was flying just fine. All he had to do was fly the plan and everything would have been fine but he cracked and didn't fly the plan. He caused its own problems.
You would think they could automate the cable system to trigger. Raising the cable if the jet never fully stopped is poor judgment. The ATC needs an MOS shift.
Sounds to me like he had situational awareness overload. He first brief's the flight on emergency procedures and when to execute them. He then finds himself in said situation that he briefed. He fubared this situation and failed to Aviate completely. ATC didn't help either with comms. When in doubt...throttle out! two powerful jet engines at your fingers ready to blast you out of a sticky situation and completely brain farted it...but at last; we are all human. I hope he's back in the air, maybe some additional training for him and he's good to go.
I wasn't there either, but I think you're underestimating the fact that he had no hydraulics. So if he takes off, there's a big risk of losing control authority. That's gonna be way worse than just driving off the end of the runway.
@@corvanphoenix He's been kind-of happily flying around though But I can understand wishing to stay on the ground after successfully landing with an emergency But then, why brief an "optional" go-around ? If it wasn't for the ATC genius, he'd have been stopped by the cable
As the old saying goes, it's usually a chain of events rather than a single act that causes an accident. That certainly seems to be the case here, with the initial bad event being maintenance's inadequate repair of a known hydraulic system fault. The comment that the mishap pilot accepted the aircraft is a gratuitous slap at the mishap pilot - how could he possibly have known that the repair work was inadequate?? Did the mishap pilot then mishandle the situation? Okay, yes, arguably he did - and apparently on a few different steps. But his was only the final event in the chain of events, yet the AIB wants him to shoulder the overwhelming bulk of the blame. One of my beefs with the Air Force during my flying years (1977-83) was the apparent need to lay blame for everything on someone or another. The stated purpose was not that - the stated purpose was to prevent future occurrences, but the accident reports I read seemed more about laying blame than anything else.
Lower the cable was the standard call and a lot of the time it was clipped. I am atc there but wasn’t in the tower that day. And as I said in the previous comment our sof isn’t in the tower.
As risk managers; minimise risk. Approach end cable engagement should've be the first choice. Why rely on an emergency backup system when that outcome was likely....
Not knowing exactly how the system works, is there a factor where a pilot says I have a hydraulic failure and this lack of hydraulic could result in loss of flight control surfaces inop if he attempts a GA and runs out of fluid?
1,000 feet to go around with burner, the cable is 2,500 feet from the end of the overrun. he had enough runway and power that he could have done an afterburner go around after he didn't engage the departure end cable.
1000 feet to get back in the air depends on the speed of the plane at the time. It might also depend on if the plane had been configured to go back up. If an F15D needs settings configured to do a go around, that would take some seconds as well. Going for a go around that late in the game might be asking for big trouble. You know, high reward with very high risk...
With a hydraulic problem (unknown at the time how serious), how long till flight controls are compromised...? Better to stay on the ground than risk loss of flight authority in the air going at least three times the speed...
@@dougle03 If it were better not to go around that would have been the plan that they made. In other comments mover addressed the point that you made, indicating that flight control hydraulics are separate from the brakes
Wow, lots going on during that landing. Hearing that the jet could have performed a successful go around at Mil power really hurts. And to stay with it while going off roading is really dangerous, esp. with the water hazards. You flip the jet and you're dead, along with your WSO. In the F-14 the back seat RIO was responsible for ejection initiation, is the ejection decision chain similar with the 2 seater f-15D? Thanks MOVER!
Two things stand out to me: 1. If the speedbrake did not fully deploy one can assume low or no hydraulic pressure remains. Why would they consider going around? Does the F-15 have a secondary hydraulic system for flight controls? If it is the same system the decision to remain on the rwy is not bad at all. 2. For ATC to stow the cable is unbelievable. I understand the confusion but why on earth would they stow it during an emergency. That one time they taxy over the cable, considering their point of discussion about wear and tear, is nonsense. My two cents.
Yes it has 3 total hydraulic systems, PC1 and PC2 bring the primaries for flight controls and also having switching valves. Utility runs secondary flight controls, brakes, radar, inlet ramps.
So, in these instances, where the MP is at fault, what happens to them? Relieved of duty? Discharged? Or is the cost of training so high that they reprimand and let the pilot continue to fly?
Didn't have room to go around... in a 15??? Yeah, I thought that was kind of weird. The Eagle Drivers always made fun of the weather guys; "I don't have to fly IN the weather, I just fly through it, it's always clear on top!"
May 2023. By the way, that's not a terrible long time. If you've ever seen a full AIB report with all the tabs, they come in multiple volumes. The one for the 2007 F-15 structural breakup is in 4 volumes and is approx. 1200 pages.
Back in the late 1970’s I flew a Cessna 172 into Kingsley Field (the airport is shared by both military and civilian) and upon landing I scraped the tail on the runway. The ATC told me that I should have a tail hook on the plane!
Mover, this is my 2nd AIB video, I learned 2 huge things. That USAF fields have cables and, somehow, I lived this long and never heard the term “Fat Amy.” You rock,
I dont get how the cable up or down scenario was related to the hydrolic leak? ill have to rewatch again without others around as every time a point seems immenent, someone says "Hey hey hey, check this out"
See, this is why I love this channel. I thought the F-35 got software updates, which made it a better "turn in" (?) fighter after they initially reported that it was terrible in dogfights in the ~2010s. My thought process was, if you're building new jets from the ground up, you want to make it as good if not better than the aircraft it's replacing, right? I know dogfighting isn't its primary role, but for some reason, I assumed it could best an F-15. Shows you how much I know about fighter jets 😂
I believe Mover had an accurate assessment of the situation. Hind sight is 20/20, and maintenance is always key to top performance with any machine. ( New or old ) Unfortunately, the holes in the swiss cheese lined up, and we lost an eagle . We pray for a full recovery for our service professional who was envolved in this accident.
Was thinking the same. How long till the hyd problems caused flight control surface degradation... I don't know the F15's systems well enough to know if loss of fluid would cause loss of authority in flight...
Chuck Yeager flew in this aircraft in 1997 at Edwards AFB during the 50 year anniversary of his history-making flight. They named the aircraft 'Glamorous Glennis III' for the occasion.
With failing hydraulics, would he still be able to operate his control surfaces? If so, I could understand the rationale to not attempt a go-around. But I'm also not a pilot yet.
"F-15 of the lake, lend me your wisdom" 😂
Guardian of the Missile in the Mud.
naaah bruh 💀
Literally came here to comment this, here's your thumbs up.
And the F-15 of the lake held aloft Excaliber.
You can't expect to wield supreme executive power just 'cause some watery tart threw an F15 at you!
The required com is cable, cable., cable probably because ATC might only hear one or two cables because of radio interference during an emergency situation. The controler should have never interpreted one cable to mean lower the cable.
If the brief is that he's not going to use the cable then I can see why the controller could move it.
I'm trying to power up, cable.
I don't want to roll over it with hydraulic problems, cable.
I told you I'm not going to use that cable get it out of my way so you don't make things worse for me.
Roger -
This stupid bullshit cost us guys a shit load of money ! Fellas - We expect & demand a much
Higher degree of professionalism - We know that it is available ! Fellers … ?
No person is perfect - for Gods sake , Do extremely good - really fuckin ‘ good eh ? Try hard !
Be safe . Don’t be cool - Please !
Exactly! That's classic normalization of deviance.
Plausible also that pilots routinely called cable, once, to lower the cable. BTW I've seen a Strike Eagle catch a cable (left gear unlock indication), left main collapsed, left wing tank drug the ground and caught fire. Crew opened the canopy, jumped out and were unharmed. Jet was in our hangar for 3-4 months and they flew it to a higher repair station.
Hot words like that always ping me. In the Herk, the only person allowed to say the word "green" was the Nav, because "GREEN LIGHT" was the final call to throw things out of the plane. People, heavy equipment, whatever, items are going out of the aircraft when anyone hears "GREEN." The rule was so prevalent that even in the office, we said things like "lime colored" to avoid saying the color.
"Cable" in this context should have held such reverence. I'm not ATC, but I'd think that if I even heard one "cable," I'm assuming the transmission got clipped. Just like my first aerobatic instructor told me, I won't hear the second and third "Bailout" calls, because he'll already be under canopy.
"Doh" Communication!...thanks Mover!
Gotta get you on the show sometime Juan.
@@CWLemoine I was thinking halfway through "huh this is a good episode of Mover Does Blancolirio"
Speaking of call signs.... You must have had one, right Juan?
I've been watching both of you guys for a long time but I don't remember ever hearing you talk about it.
A question for both of you....
We have the F-15's based out of PDX.
You can always tell when the Eagles are about to come in because the cable comes up/out of the runway.
Is that something we just have in Portland or do they have them everywhere?
Wondering if Juan sees them at other airports.
Does Mover see them when he lands?
Are they ever a hazard for either of you.
I never noticed them before someone pointed them out to me..
Now I can't NOT see them.
@@christopherleveck6835 2:40 He says the cable is pretty standard at all fighter bases.
@@BreandanAnraoi So to speak
Good breakdown Mover. That entire Cable call as yiu said was a crux issue overlooked it appears by the AIB. Imagine saying one “Mayday” instead of “Mayday Mayday Mayday” and ATC assume ops are normal. Lots of lessons cheers.
Hell. Most commercial pilots dont even say the full mayday mayday mayday anymore. It's usually either a single mayday, the controller declaring an emergency for the pilots after they describe their problem, or the pilots just say that they are declaring an emergency.
Press on....I appreciate your hard work for information, entertainment and fun in all your vidoes. Always stay healthy, safe and mentally stable.
Pilot gets a new callsign, Cable Guy!!😅
Or Trapper, or Baja
No, he is just "Cable".
Uncable
@@justfly7730 wireless
Larry
I once asked a Thunderbird maintainer about the tailhook on the F-16 and he just looked at me dumb and said that only Navy jets have tailhooks. Blew my mind that someone could work on the jet every day and not know that it existed.
Good life lesson. Once you make a plan, include in the plan the conditions to deviate from the plan, and then execute it. Second guessing mid-execution without a major unforeseen cause is letting RNJesus take the wheel. That assumes you made the right plan to start with :-) An example is briefing an engine failure on takeoff, and then deciding to try the impossible turn when it happens. Rarely ends well.
As a retired civilian ATC I see a change to phraseology coming, with specific wording to lower the cable, ie. unless the pilot says "LOWER the cable" the cable will remain extended. Like everything else we did in the agency, it was screw ups that changed policy, proactive changes rarely occured.
Or use a phrase like "Lower Wire" so as to not use Cable in any phrase other than intended
If there is any question, they should default to keeping the cable deployed. Seems really silly to do the opposite, especially if it's already deployed.
Same in fleet truck operations. Everything is reactive. Somebody screws up? Make a new rule. Problem solved. Until the next screw up, then it's rinse and repeat. So glad I'm retired and don't have to deal with any more of that shinola.
A huge problem almost everywhere
@@quivallagreat idea on that front. Would be really good to keep the phrases as different as possible (while still being quick and memorable) so they can't be confused with each other.
I was a Crew Chief (USAF) at Eglin AFB (Test Wing) in 1978, my jet (F-4E 66-0295) was tasked with "Barrier Verification", and after a half dozen engagements, the aircraft returned to chocks.
The tailhook "shoe" was FUBAR, and I had to pull panels for "special inspection", but otherwise it was a good day.
It was pretty cool watching the jet doing "drag racing" and how fast the barrier stops a big pig.
Certification
@@MavHunter20XX Yes. Thanks. My brain knew that, my fingers lied. :D
@@trunkmonkey9417 What am I complaining about? You were doing this way before I born. I hope all is well with you.
😎
As an F-35 mechanic, these accident breakdowns hold valuble information to identifiy and prevent future accidents. Unfortunetly, the big AF can be pretty reactive when it comes to aviation maintenance and somtimes forms a culture that normalizes deviance. I hope that unit takes this information to heart for the maintainers.
I hope they do too. Though, the amount of focus given to the pilot's mistakes in the report, rather than on the issues with ATC and Maintenance practices, makes me fear that this might be a case of the investigators attempting to effectively throw the pilot under the bus so they don't have to change practices. Mover did say at the beginning of the video, this type of public release is generally more focused on laying blame than outlining the institutional reforms that come out of accidents so maybe it's just the slant of it being that kind of document. Though I honestly don't like that either. It reinforces the idea in my mind that there is an institutional culture of finding scapegoats for problems that can be publicly lambasted rather than attempting to implement actual improvements.
Surely the reason the call is "Cable Cable Cable" in to cover the eventuality that the whole transmission isn't received? So, the whole One Cable = Down, Three Cables = Up makes no sense at all.
Agreed, it's the reason Mayday Mayday Mayday is x3... As is Pan Pan Pan etc... You only need to hear it once to know there is a problem/instruction...
Can't imagine there would be any adverse reaction to leaving it up in an abnormal situation like this... Controller has deffo been given a get out of jail card on this one....
You say "Mayday" three times because it takes three seconds to say it. And therefore if you are stepping on someone else's average two-word transmission, you eventually get through on clear air by spamming.
One call has a certain probability of simply canceling someone else's call into radio static.
Apparently the (1x) "Cable" call was not procedure but rather a developped localism that people just did.
Retired AF Fire guy here and have reset hundreds of BAK-9 portable and BAK-12 Arresting Systems. Technically, the ‘absorbing system’ is tape on a spool connected to B-52 brakes in a pit on either side of the runway. Thankfully, the crew survived.
Great content!
I always wondered what was in those houses where the cables come out of, the braking system, etc.
Excellent assessment Mover. From the MX side, 14 year F-15 crew chief and 11 year MX officer says you’re spot on. Have no idea why the barrier would be lowered on the runoff end regardless of pilot comms on a hydraulic failure. Also, pilot should have pulled the Emergency steer/brake handle. Deal with the bullshit on Friday afternoon vs. putting her the lake. 20/20 hindsight.
As a 43151c Crew Chief (back in the day when C and D models were brand new(1978)) this is very interesting. I kind of take issue with the notion that going around for a second attempt could've been a better outcome. If there is not enough juice to lift the speed brake and the brakes are inoperative then that bodes poorly for the flight control system as well best to stay on the ground no matter what. As you pointed out, the cable should have stayed up, is the bottom line. That's where the problem was from my easy chair perspective. Also Hydro specialist crew screwed up missing the main defect which started the whole thing.
Agree with your assessment. If "Cable" doesn't mean "lower the cable", the ATC should never have lowered the cable. I wouldn't put the "non-standard phraseology" completely on the pilot. It was the right word - just not repeated. ATC assumed the pilot had landed safely - he shouldn't have assumed that without confirming it.
Spent 4-years at Kingsley in the 70's and got my private at base aero club. It's high (4k), it's hot (or snowy), and it's bouncy. In my day the SOF was given a dodge pickup truck or van with lights and a radio, and they spent most of their time on the ramp.
Given that the jet had a known hydraulic leak and resulting failures (speedbrake, etc), I can see why the MP was not keen on the idea of getting airborne again.
It has 3 Hydraulic systems, utility system running radar antenna if equipped with old system, gear, flaps, speedbrake, brakes and inlet ramps. It also has utility non reservoir level sensing which will continue to pump remaining utility system fluid until it's empty. The utility B light was his first indicator of a leak and don't always trust the indication of psi because they have been known to fail indicating pressure when it doesn't exist. You trust the Utility A or Utility B lights because they are mechanical rather than electrical.
The arresting hook and emergency brake function was his last options period. The failure of lowering the cable ultimately caused the final issue of the jet going off the runway. It's been awhile but I dont remember if they would have even noticed the hydraulic leak under those circumstances if the FOHE was never driven into an overheat condition started circulating the hydraulic fluid through the heat exchanger system. Guess that would depends on where the failure was on the heat exchanger itself. Hydraulic mules rarely get the fluid up to temp let alone to a degree that the FOHE would actually make it start to circulate through the heat exchanger.
On Navy and Marine Corps bases, the arresting cable was always fixed in my day 50+ years ago. I hope that has not changed. Done both. Used it one time to stop an A-4 Skyhawk with a no oil pressure landing emergency. And in another incident, it was derigged intentionally with my emergency gear up landing with a single belly tank not to catch the wire and spin out of control.
Man, talk about pucker factor! Damn glad you walked away both times. Thanks for your service!
2014 EAA, F16 had a mishap. It and a wingman were doing a demo outside of the air show that day. MP gets an hyd's warning. Lands on runway 36, full length. Has no brakes, over runs the runway and ends up on the grass before runway 5/23, with a nose wheel collapse and radome snapped off.
Good review and your assessments seem spot on. Glad no one was seriously hurt. The cable comm mess up was really unfortunate. I strongly agree with your comments about old jets!
Learned again something, didn't know that most fighters have a tailhook. Thanks Mover.
I love this, after every mishap, I wait a year for you to break it down for us!!!
Two things come to mind:
1- Using Cable to lower the cable could confuse things further with communication interruptions when the pilot says it three times but ATC hears it only once
2- With no hydraulics on the F-15, can it be safely flown? Since the airbrake didn’t completely deploy, wouldn’t it be risky to take off with it or land without it if it did stow but couldn’t be deployed on the second try?
Great video! Thanks for sharing!
Thanks for the update dude. Living in Portland, OR and kinda paying attention to these things I was curious the outcome.
Always easy to say "woulda Shoulda coulda" As retired ATC, cable up would have hurt nothing.
Here at the cemetery lies a 104 pilot who had hit the barrier doing an unplanned go around, miscommunication left the barrier up flipping the almost flying jet upside down leaving the pilot no chance.
But yes, I do agree, hot words should only be used for their "hot" situation.
Thanks Mover. Great breakdown.
Watched an F4 bounce the cable at Nellis and go around with the drogue chute deployed. He successfully made it back around with barely any ⛽️remaining.
Well done video. Retired USAF safety chief.
I appreciate the review and the breakdown of the incident. As you speculate, ATC had a much larger role in this incident especially when moving focus from an emergency aircraft to the traffic pattern.
Always learning. As long as we pay attention.
Good summary, Mover. Points to ponder: (1) The SOF was in his vehicle out on the airfield, not in the tower, so he was not able to intervene in the local controller's actions (I believe several ANG units utilize their SOFs like this). (2) Although not addressed in the AIB report, it appears that the pilot did not shut off his engines when departing the runway (the checklist was changed after this mishap to remind pilots of this). If normal braking was not available, then neither was nosewheel steering. The rudders provide some directional control > 70kts, but below that, differential power would be about the only way to steer the jet on the ground without pulling the emergency brake/steering handle (you get both emergency brakes and emergency nosewheel steering when you pull the handle). (3) The pilot had 3 decisions points where he could have chosen to execute a go-around. The first after he noticed the brakes failed (which was the briefed option). The second after he heard the ATC controller lower the cable, and third, after he missed the departure-end cable (there was still enough runway/overrun to get airborne, but the pucker factor would have been substantial). During a go-around with total utility hydraulic failure, all flight controls would respond normally, but the gear and hook would remain down. The partially extended speedbrake would retract as airspeed increased. (4) Shack on the ejection decision, especially after hitting the ski jump berm before the drainage canal at 50+kts and getting airborne. He's lucky the jet didn't flip over and trap him underwater in the canal.
If you brief it... you should fly it... Well presented Mover!!!
As I understand it Carrier jets with the hook don't just have the hook, but a stronger airframe to support the hook, to stop the aircraft very quickly. So AF jets have the hook to use in emergencies, but they save weight with less support for it, so can't stop as quickly as Carrier aircraft do. Is that an accurate characterisation?
The cable should have remained up, it's the fail safe state, no harm would have occurred if it had remained up. The decision to lower it was in my opinion a primary cause of the crash.
Let's consider worst case scenario, which is basically where things ended up.
Don't need the cable, leave it up, maybe the cable gets damaged unnecessarily vs loss of aircraft. Cables are just a tad less expensive than an aircraft...
All great points. Most interesting. Thank you!
My schoolhouse for Vipers and Eagles. "Land of No Slack." Unfortunate series of events. Glad nobody was seriously hurt. TYPICALLY It is alway communicated in plain English approaching departure end if you wanted to have the cable lowered because you were going to have to taxi over it , by stating such. "Tower (CS) you can lower the departure end cable " or "Tower (CS) cleared to lower dept. end cable" etc. It's "normally " specified as to which cable just to take ambiguity out of it, but not always. Your point about a single call of "cable" is valid. **But additionally when you are leading a 4/2 multi ship and there are jets landing behind you, you never lower the departure end cable as number one, because your bros behind you might need it. The tower person (should) know that as well. But again the responsibility is on the MA. The declared emergency situation might have changed many perceptions, assuming the other jets were in a hold awaiting tower and fire to clear the runway for landing after MA was going to clear.
That's a good point that it would have been inappropriate to lower the cable when you are the first in line.
I grew up in Klamath Falls in the 70’-90’s and we live on Altamont Drive about 2 1/2 miles from the end of the north end of the runway and having F4’s flying over your house on final is something you don’t forget, it was normal to stop all conversations as they flew over since there was no way you could hear anything with those engines howling. We’ve seen all kinds of wild stuff over the years, there was an F-16 crash in I think 1995 where the F-16 hit the ground while in full afterburner out in Lake County where they do their fighter training and the largest part they could find was something the size of your fist….damn. Kingsley is at around 3,700 AGL altitude and we have some weird winds up there that can pop up without warning on seemingly the calmest of days, I remember my grandad landing our Cessna 206 and he had to crab it on final at nearly 45 degrees where I could see right down the runway in the back seat and he held that until he transitioned straight right when the stall indicator started howling. As for the F-15, the first thing I was thinking was why didn’t he just take off again?this will buy him more time to go through a checklist over the radio and discuss what happened during the first attempt and see if the symptoms indicated a specific system or component failure that an experienced pilot or maintenance tech could advise him on. In the Infantry I lived by one motto; “assumption is the mother of all fuck ups!” Never, ever assume anything.
Excellent assessment, I really enjoy your videos !!!
I used to fly one round trip every week out of PDX where the Air Guard has the F-15's.
I always parked on the top of the parkade.
A lot of times I would try and get there early to hopefully see the Eagles fly.
The way to tell they were coming in was when they would raise the cable.
When the cable came up you knew it would be minutes before a couple F-15's would be landing.
This was Kingslyfield. About 20 miles southeast of Roseburg and that's 187 miles south of Portland. Your talking about the 142nd fighter wing. Unfortunately these days I don't have a chance to see them land or take off as I have to work x.x sad panda.
I’m surprised that the A-10 doesn’t have a hook considering how much of its design went into expecting it to experience severe battle damage. (Redundant hydraulic systems, landing gear still works even when retracted)
It would have been useful if the AIB determined whether the use of the singular "cable" had been routinely used to indicate that the pilot wanted the cable lowered.
I was an Air Force controller and your assessment is spot on. The controller should have verified prior to lowering cable. Prior to being a controller I was an F-15 crew chief. It’s a toss up to discern between minor (aceptable..yes aceptable) leaks and grounding leaks. The amount of servicing could be an indicator of trouble to come but if servicing occurred between different shifts, may have not been noticed by crew chiefs. The line maint supv. ( Msgt or above in my day) should have caught how much hydraulic fluid the jet took if it was an excessive amount and not released the acft. Same goes to pilot accepting aircraft. Looking back… I ( in error) would tell butter bars, when questioned about leaks, “ are you going to buy it or fly it”. I enjoy the breakdown of these incidents. Thank you.
Thank you for doing these
Reminds me point of sale card readers. Many of them place the words "Please do not" on one line and "Remove card" on a second line. Then, transaction complete, you get "Please remove card". Why is "remove" used at all in the first message?! You get a glare off the glass and yoink I early every once a while and now everyone's latte is delayed.
Very excellent analysis and presentation by Mover.
21+ year AF. crew chief here the F-15 was my first bird and still my love, F-16's were 2nd assignment, and finally the KC-10. I'm confused as to why we were penny wise and dollar foolish. the cable is way cheaper to replace than an entire aircraft or even a life, I have never been aware of this practice and hopefully the practice has been discontinued AF. wide and directives sent out. secondly the maintenance people need to have their feet held to the fire and find out there the whole not fully documenting maintenance thing is okay, red x conditions were skipped, that kind of stuff just cannot happen, where were the maintenance leadership who are trusted to insure all the steps were followed. and if u break the chain steps are missed in the process, this could have turned out really bad for the pilots and potentially civilians on the ground. it cannot be allowed to happen and should never happen. surely some of the blame falls on the maintenance unit also.
Is there anything seriously negative that can happen if the jet goes over the cable but doesn't necessarily need it?
I just thought they would keep the cable up in an emergency situation no matter what, until they had to recover the other aircraft obviously.
But if the pilot had the arresting hook down and the plan was for a go around, it could have also been misinterpreted that he needed the cable down in order to go around.
Exactly what I was thinking as a possibility - since everyone knew the cable was up, why did the pilot call out "cable?" I agree ATC might have been thinking he wanted the cable out of his way to do a go-around. None of this is easy, which is why they spend so much time (and money) training.
another question sop who worked on this Aircraft before signing of on it being on flight Roster i just watched Fortress on tubi too bone up on my Actrinums 4 milatary in that film.
Its kind of wild to think that they identified the need for cable, brought it up, and then decided to put it back down.
The tower could see what was going on.
They didn't really decide to retract the cable they just created confusion and the controller guessed that he was supposed to retract the cable.
Hi, I really enjoyed this particular briefing and really appreciate the precision and insight you help us learn from the aftermath.
“Normalization of Deviance” is right on; in fact, I now wonder whether the USAF actually possesses ANY automated End-to-End oversight & records monitoring system that includes maintenance activities along with ops?
This is assuming they don’t still use strictly manual/analog/paper-based records.
If DOD doesn’t formally employ some form of all-inclusive “Continuous Process Improvement“, as well as in each of the services, then what kind of quality assurance program is actually being employed?
If none exist,then the only result can be “Management by Crisis“.
Please tell me it isn’t as bad as all that!?
Thanks,
Mark
Portland, MAINE
Super interesting analysis. I have worked in risk management and the human factors stuff is really common across industries
Question: Are F-15 flight surfaces hydraulically operated? If so, are they on the same hydraulic system as the brakes? I could see a last minute decision in light of brake inoperability, to hook the cable instead of doing a go-around if there was a risk of losing flight controls.
Looks like there is plenty of blame to go around. Lots of holes in that Swiss cheese.
Was just at Avon Park the end of March. Beautiful area, was a little weird having the prison/jail on base and seeing them maintaining the area, but it was pristine.
I suppose a jet is totalled when it went into the drink? The impact at 50mph itself was obviously more than enough to take it out, but I'm wondering about the water part. Or would that alone get fixed with a lot of expensive depot time?.
Spot on analysis Mover. Thx.
What functionality do you loose on the F-15 when you loose all your hydraulic fluid ?
Utility side only in this case.
Thx Mover....all the Swiss cheese holes lined up that day...hopefully valuable lessons were learned.
Not all of them. The Pilot walked away...
Is there no boldface that applies to this scenario? Was there a checklist deviation? Is not applying the proper boldface a "checklist deviation?"
Mover, quick question: Confirm that the BAK-12 is surface mounted and can not be remotely adjusted and only the BAK-14 system can be lowered below the runway level? Or is the BAK-12 B an equivalent to the latter one?
Many thx from Germany.
The airport that I used to work at many years ago had an Air National Guard Base with F-16s. They landed with a drag chute. Is that practice no longer used or does the F-15 not use those?
I was wondering if you were going to make a video about this. I was in Klamath Falls that day. I didn't witness it, but I was wondering why everything stopped.
I'm gonna say it- ATC committed the biggest eff up here. Not gonna second-guess the guy in the cockpit trying to manage the emergency in millisecond increments
Improvising the plan in milliseconds was the pilot's mistake.
He should have stuck to the plan, there was no good reason to deviate. If at the last second he thought there was a reason to deviate he should have hit the gas and gone back up to revaluate.
@jerseyshoredroneservices225 have you ever lost hydraulics in your car's steering or braking system? I have; it's terrifying. And my car doesn't even fly, so having a hydraulic problem and visually verifying hydraulic fluid leaking on a JET means I'm getting on the ground NOW. Like, yesterday-type-of-NOW. Losing control authority in a jet on the ground is scary; losing control authority in a jet in the sky is likely game over. In hindsight, I think the real screw up was the pilot's initial plan to abort and go around. Once his wheels hit the tarmac, his plan should never have entertained limping a leaking and hydraulically-challenged jet back into the sky. Especially with such a long runway and availability of arresting cables.
@@brysonfitzgerald5238
Yes I have lost power steering and all breaking a few times. My car was manufactured in 1995 and it's been in the northeast rust belt ever since so I've lost a few brake lines LOL.
This pilot didn't lose controls he his plane was flying just perfectly and he had all the time in the world to come up with a plan on how to land it.
If you watch the video they didn't mention anything about loss of controls and everybody involved agreed that the plan was to hit the gas and go back up, because the plane was flying just fine.
All he had to do was fly the plan and everything would have been fine but he cracked and didn't fly the plan. He caused its own problems.
You would think they could automate the cable system to trigger. Raising the cable if the jet never fully stopped is poor judgment. The ATC needs an MOS shift.
Lowering the cable ... was poor judgement
@@Wannes_Oops, that's what I meant.
5000ft remaining @ around 70 kn and MP thinking he can't take off again ?
What was he thinking he was flying ? The Space Shuttle ?
Sounds to me like he had situational awareness overload. He first brief's the flight on emergency procedures and when to execute them. He then finds himself in said situation that he briefed. He fubared this situation and failed to Aviate completely. ATC didn't help either with comms. When in doubt...throttle out! two powerful jet engines at your fingers ready to blast you out of a sticky situation and completely brain farted it...but at last; we are all human. I hope he's back in the air, maybe some additional training for him and he's good to go.
I know nothing about F-15s, but a million years ago when I was a cobra helicopter crew chief hydraulic fluid leaking from anywhere was red X item.
I wasn't there either, but I think you're underestimating the fact that he had no hydraulics. So if he takes off, there's a big risk of losing control authority. That's gonna be way worse than just driving off the end of the runway.
@@corvanphoenix He's been kind-of happily flying around though
But I can understand wishing to stay on the ground after successfully landing with an emergency
But then, why brief an "optional" go-around ?
If it wasn't for the ATC genius, he'd have been stopped by the cable
@@corvanphoenix He had backup systems...
I was gonna say they should do cables on commercial runways, but I guess there’s too many different types of aircraft and factors involved.
What do you have the cable raised before they landed with a hydraulic problem? Precautionary or emergency landing
As the old saying goes, it's usually a chain of events rather than a single act that causes an accident. That certainly seems to be the case here, with the initial bad event being maintenance's inadequate repair of a known hydraulic system fault. The comment that the mishap pilot accepted the aircraft is a gratuitous slap at the mishap pilot - how could he possibly have known that the repair work was inadequate?? Did the mishap pilot then mishandle the situation? Okay, yes, arguably he did - and apparently on a few different steps. But his was only the final event in the chain of events, yet the AIB wants him to shoulder the overwhelming bulk of the blame. One of my beefs with the Air Force during my flying years (1977-83) was the apparent need to lay blame for everything on someone or another. The stated purpose was not that - the stated purpose was to prevent future occurrences, but the accident reports I read seemed more about laying blame than anything else.
Amazing analysis!
Lower the cable was the standard call and a lot of the time it was clipped. I am atc there but wasn’t in the tower that day. And as I said in the previous comment our sof isn’t in the tower.
As risk managers; minimise risk. Approach end cable engagement should've be the first choice. Why rely on an emergency backup system when that outcome was likely....
Taking off again with total hydraulic failure, speed break still UP, etc., is a bad idea when you're expecting a cable arrest.
It’s not a total hydraulic failure. Utility only.
Not knowing exactly how the system works, is there a factor where a pilot says I have a hydraulic failure and this lack of hydraulic could result in loss of flight control surfaces inop if he attempts a GA and runs out of fluid?
Not in this case.
Did he put the nose wheel down too soon? I remember seeing some MA ANG jets holding the nose up to what seemed like well below 100kts
1,000 feet to go around with burner, the cable is 2,500 feet from the end of the overrun. he had enough runway and power that he could have done an afterburner go around after he didn't engage the departure end cable.
1000 feet to get back in the air depends on the speed of the plane at the time. It might also depend on if the plane had been configured to go back up. If an F15D needs settings configured to do a go around, that would take some seconds as well.
Going for a go around that late in the game might be asking for big trouble. You know, high reward with very high risk...
With a hydraulic problem (unknown at the time how serious), how long till flight controls are compromised...? Better to stay on the ground than risk loss of flight authority in the air going at least three times the speed...
@@dougle03
If it were better not to go around that would have been the plan that they made. In other comments mover addressed the point that you made, indicating that flight control hydraulics are separate from the brakes
Great review @Mover.
Wow, lots going on during that landing. Hearing that the jet could have performed a successful go around at Mil power really hurts. And to stay with it while going off roading is really dangerous, esp. with the water hazards. You flip the jet and you're dead, along with your WSO. In the F-14 the back seat RIO was responsible for ejection initiation, is the ejection decision chain similar with the 2 seater f-15D? Thanks MOVER!
They aren't normally flying with anyone in the back seat.
@@danielh1708 That's too bad.
Looks like a standard landing for me in DCS minus the malfunctions.
Wonder if the SIB is a big diff from the AIB. Took the AIB 365+ days?
Two things stand out to me:
1. If the speedbrake did not fully deploy one can assume low or no hydraulic pressure remains. Why would they consider going around? Does the F-15 have a secondary hydraulic system for flight controls? If it is the same system the decision to remain on the rwy is not bad at all.
2. For ATC to stow the cable is unbelievable. I understand the confusion but why on earth would they stow it during an emergency. That one time they taxy over the cable, considering their point of discussion about wear and tear, is nonsense.
My two cents.
ATC was distracted. Given there was an emergency he shouldn't have been.
Yes it has 3 total hydraulic systems, PC1 and PC2 bring the primaries for flight controls and also having switching valves. Utility runs secondary flight controls, brakes, radar, inlet ramps.
So, in these instances, where the MP is at fault, what happens to them? Relieved of duty? Discharged? Or is the cost of training so high that they reprimand and let the pilot continue to fly?
Didn't have room to go around... in a 15??? Yeah, I thought that was kind of weird. The Eagle Drivers always made fun of the weather guys; "I don't have to fly IN the weather, I just fly through it, it's always clear on top!"
May 2023. By the way, that's not a terrible long time. If you've ever seen a full AIB report with all the tabs, they come in multiple volumes. The one for the 2007 F-15 structural breakup is in 4 volumes and is approx. 1200 pages.
What was the finding? In one word.
Great breakdown. Thanks!
Back in the late 1970’s I flew a Cessna 172 into Kingsley Field (the airport is shared by both military and civilian) and upon landing I scraped the tail on the runway. The ATC told me that I should have a tail hook on the plane!
Good analysis, Mover. Good video.
Could there not be an additional permanently up cable on the grass. Where it would never be overrun but would always be there just in case.
Mover, this is my 2nd AIB video, I learned 2 huge things. That USAF fields have cables and, somehow, I lived this long and never heard the term “Fat Amy.” You rock,
I dont get how the cable up or down scenario was related to the hydrolic leak? ill have to rewatch again without others around as every time a point seems immenent, someone says "Hey hey hey, check this out"
The cable is not related to the hydraulic leak. It just could have saved the day after the hydraulically happened
Just curious about the image that was used for the thumbnail:
Aren't F-15's exclusively Air Force? Why does this one appear to be a Navy model?
I wonder if there was some puppetering going on? The pilot said "cable" so the controller pressed the cable button.
Yeah. Clearly this. Maybe it should be a button to raise and a key (in the basement) to lower.
See, this is why I love this channel. I thought the F-35 got software updates, which made it a better "turn in" (?) fighter after they initially reported that it was terrible in dogfights in the ~2010s. My thought process was, if you're building new jets from the ground up, you want to make it as good if not better than the aircraft it's replacing, right? I know dogfighting isn't its primary role, but for some reason, I assumed it could best an F-15. Shows you how much I know about fighter jets 😂
2:21 Wait.....I thought the cable was just.....there......at the end of the runway. It you raised it any more it might engage the nose wheel.
I believe Mover had an accurate assessment of the situation.
Hind sight is 20/20, and maintenance is always key to top performance with any machine. ( New or old ) Unfortunately, the holes in the swiss cheese lined up, and we lost an eagle .
We pray for a full recovery for our service professional who was envolved in this accident.
Would hydraulic loss be a problem if he had gone around?
Was thinking the same. How long till the hyd problems caused flight control surface degradation... I don't know the F15's systems well enough to know if loss of fluid would cause loss of authority in flight...
Chuck Yeager flew in this aircraft in 1997 at Edwards AFB during the 50 year anniversary of his history-making flight. They named the aircraft 'Glamorous Glennis III' for the occasion.
You gotta do a video on the f35 crash here in Albuquerque Kirkland AFB. The plane came close to hitting the interstate
With failing hydraulics, would he still be able to operate his control surfaces? If so, I could understand the rationale to not attempt a go-around. But I'm also not a pilot yet.
Yes. Different systems.
@@CWLemoine thanks for the explanation and breakdown of the incident!