I'm surprised Nu didn't mention the obvious reason older bows weren't centre shot, if you cut a chuck out of an older one peice of wood bow, it would be far more likely to snap under full draw. Modern materials allow us to create weak points in a bow such as centre shot cutouts because the materials are better at compenating, but older wood only bows wouldn't be able to take the strain on a weakened part. I've seen enough bows explode on the tiller jig to see why old bow makes wouldn't remove so much material from a bow.
@@NUSensei yes when the bow bends the limbs must endure stress , with a cutout there's less material strength and making a bow without a shelf was less work and production .. with modern materials like fiberglass you reduce the risk
not exactly ... the material removed is not on the working part of the bow. you could just as well reinforce a stick bow with some other material. after all there were bows with strike plates/other type of rest in the past. however it was too complicated and too delicate to do in mass production ...
@@lubossoltes321 dependens on the bow som bows bend full compas trough the handle most moder bows accumulate stress at the fades and a flatt limb distributes it better than a d shape
The modern riser is thicker front-to-back at the position of the cutout, so there is more material to withstand the force on it when the bow is drawn. The historical bow's cross-section at that point is almost circular, so a cutout there would leave the riser significantly weaker.
A paradox is a contradictory or unexpected result. The archer’s paradox is neither the flexing or the offset but the fact that despite pointing off to one side the arrow will actually shoot more or less on a straight line as if through the centre of the stave. The offset sets up the expectation of a result but the flexing causes the actual result.
That's the problem with calling it a paradox. An arrow doesn't fly where it's pointed like a missile; it points in the direction that it is flying. The motion of the string determines the motion of the center of mass of the arrow. Once in flight, the fletchings correct the orientation of the arrow to match the trajectory of the arrow. Describing it like a paradox misrepresents the physics of which forces determine the trajectory of the arrow.
Also, don't forget that a Straight riser made of just wood would be a little structurally weakened by putting a window in it. The modern day risers are designed to stay strong with the window.
Yeah, I may have glossed over it when I mentioned modern materials and manufacturing. You are absolutely right: you can't cut away half the bow and expect the same structural integrity. Modern bows have better laminate and composite materials, especially with the advent of fiberglass. Sport risers not only have exclusively modern material (carbon, aluminium) but also internal frames.
most modern bows with a wood riser are not truly center-shot. They will have a window cutout for the shelf but not beyond centerline of the bow; making the arrow off-center. Bows with a metal riser are usually stronger than wood, allowing for the window to be truly center-shot....example: the Hoyt Helix.
Great video and Topic. I still shoot both shelve and off the hand,. I agree with you that a shelf will shoot a stiffer spine more accurately in gerneral. After making about a hundred self, sinew backed, and a few laminated bows I found shelves can have less stability on self bows changing over time as the wood shifts. I also found when making bows with stone tools requires to initially shape the wood green. This can also cause some shifting and potential checking near a cut shelf as the wood dries over the next week, or weeks. Shelves also typically wear out fletching quicker than a shooting with appropriate wrist tension off the hand. I’ve found that Proper pre loaded wrist tension can be performed with both Asiatic or Mediterranean style releases by changing the rotation that wrist tension is applied on a roundish or flattish handle. Cheers Man
In my experience ELB's don't do terribly well with thumb draws, and to the best of my knowledge there is no good evidence they were ever used with such a draw. The limb profile doesn't lend itself to khatra. The same basic bow design is used all over the world, and all the cultures that make them use fingers. They just work best that way.
I would disagree on "same amount of skill". For an Asiatic archer, they would have to master khatra - which is one more set of motions. For a western style shooter, they would have to refine their technique since non-shelved bows are less forgiving. Would love to know your thoughts if you think otherwise. I do agree they're for different purposes and do not think one bow type is superior to the other. Please don't get me wrong though - loved this video and love this channel! 🎯
toxophilite0525 Khatra was more a byproduct of having to work with extremely stiff arrow shafts which, when discharged would naturally fly at an angled trajectory and deviate it way off-course. It’s also generally encouraged that Khatra should be a natural consequence of biomechanical tension in the back and wrist being correctly dispersed upon release. Not every single Asiatic style of archery implemented and some actually advocated against Khatra; particularly certain prominent Chinese styles (there’s even this saying: “Don’t Khatra a Manchu bow”), though there is a more exuberant follow-through known as ‘Painting the Ground’. Primarily, it was the Islamic empires, the Mamluks and Turks who opted for it and to some extent, the Japanese also have a form of bow-clearing follow through movement.
with the trad longbow archer's i've shot with, some of them told me that they push or punch through the shot. in essence this is a form of khatra. I don't know how traditional this is , but when seen in action, it is essentially creating the same effect where the bow moves out of the way of the arrow.
Hi your videos are nice easy to understand. I am a hobbyist bow maker & fun archer. pls tell me where is the "center shot window and arrow rest" are located on raiser / handle? on the very center of the handle OR little above?
How does the flat surface not rip off the feathers? I’ve been looking for a new rest for my bow, but I can’t find any but this flat one with hairs? And I don’t know if I’m gonna waste my time buying it or not
Many modern bow hunters now use extremely precise bows with highly advanced sights, carbon or aluminum frames with short thick springs pulling cam wheels which change the resting draw, whisker biscuits, scopes, balances, finger triggers, and even butt stocks [as opposed to cross bows which typically have butt stocks, but also have rails and some times have carriages, and now even magazines and cocking arms (fashioned loosely from the Chinese Lián Nŭ repeating bow, only highly advanced)].
The level of precision and power required for a bow on the ancient battlefield depended on the time period. In the late medieval period, armor had advanced to the point where it required very precise shooting from a very powerful bow to take down an armored enemy. The level of precision you are describing fits more in earlier periods with less advanced armor.
Just bought turkish bow. Still adjusting without center shot. Im RH and place d arrow on right side, slavic draw. Arrow fly always on d right side. Same with mediterranean style arrow fly always on the left. The arrow always hit d bow cause of noise it made and bruise to my bow. Any suggestions what to do. Thanks
Thanks for explaining another archery mystery! So the natural follow up question would be: “Why do we use arrows with different spine today, couldn’t we all use the most stiff arrows with modern bows?”
I bought 5 different spined arrows, all the same make and from the same supplier to try and see which spine was best for my bow.. I did several practices and I notice that with my centre shot bow, my groupings at 20yards were less than an inch shooting 5 different arrows each end. Spine charts tell me I should be shooting 500-600 spined carbon arrows, but my favourite arrows are actually spined 400, which is much stiffer than any arrow chart says I should be using.
With a finger release, there is still an element of flex that is needed for arrow clearance, and we still see that when not perfectly spined, the arrow will have a left/right deviation on target as the fletches have to do more work to correct the arrow flight, and inconsistent execution will amplify that spread. Arrow technology today has gotten to the point where an archer can pick the right arrow for their specific bow and draw and get an all-10 grouping at 70 metres, a feat that is virtually impossible with traditional equipment. Even with we allowed sights and stabilisers on a traditional longbow, it would not achieve the same consistency as a modern bow with modern arrows. Such precision on traditional equipment would be seen as superhuman. Modern developments have removed that ceiling and made it attainable with sufficient skill and training. Compound bows with release aids are a different matter. Compound bows are much more forgiving of spine, and you can drill Xs with the wrong spine, and compound bows do uniquely have centre-shot designs with the arrow going through the riser.
@NUSensei thanks a lot. I guess the arrow to allow me to get all 10s at 70m isn’t invented yet. So I’ll keep training and watching your videos until it happens.
Just on a point. You say it doesn't take more skill to use a traditional bow and then say the center shot bow is more forgiving which implies that it does require less skill to use a center shot bow. So yes it does take more skill/practice to use a historical bow design at the same level as more modern designs
I think that in the old days they typically shot instinctive and target was less important so when you learnt to shoot instinctive you do not aim with anything visual on the bow but your muscle memory compensates for the lack of cut out. I only look at the target when I shoot so it doesn't matter to me how the bow is setup. I'm also not very accurate either lol
I can confirm this. I only shot instinctive and I don't aim with the bow at all. It's almost like throwing a rock, or shooting with double pistols in akimbo style
I really want to know,why the arrow doesnt shoot from the center of the bow according to lenght of the whole thing. It always seems to be that the arrow sits on the top half of the string
Can you still mess around with thumb release and other styles of shooting with that center window? I've been looking at my bow with a center window and it feels very limited (super shrew 2)
Something I think you almost mentioned, that I've been wondering: With a center shot recurve, I can cant the bow, get the arrow directly under my eye, and basically do the horizontal aiming along the arrow. Can you still do that with a bow like an English longbow that is not center shot? Or is the point off to one side when aiming?
The need to cant the bow depends on the size of the cutout. If the riser blocks your vision, it helps to cant the bow. If the cutout is large enough to leave your vision unobstructed, there are some advantages to keeping the bow vertical. In either case, you can get the arrow below your eye by how you anchor.
Very detailed explanation. Well done. But I would disagree on the skill required point. Khatra takes a lot more time to master. And with it you eliminate the paradox entirely, just like with the center shot bow. I would even dare say it can produce a straighter shot because the arrow is not in contact with the shelf and bow the entire time of release.
Yes, I was confused myself. Nu said that there is no inherent skill difference between the two bows, but then in the next sentence says that the historical bow is less forgiving. I would have thought that a tool that is less forgiving would naturally require more skill (better/more consistent technique)
I don't think so. By the time you do your Khatra the arrow has long since cleared the bow. That's not to say it doesn't serve a purpose, but to say it's to clear the bow from the arrows path is just wrong.
@@space.youtube You, my friend don't know what you're talking about. No offense. A proper way to do khatra is to have the bow hand pull the string from your fingers. So how can the bow movement be late, if is what initiated the release? I have seen people say the exact same thing you just said, and it originated from a YT video of a guy who had no idea what khatra is supposed to do, and is primarily a western style shooter. Yes, khatra can add speed to the arrow, but it's primary purpose is to provide clearance for the arrow. And what I said before, I said from my own experience. Without khatra my arrows don't fly nearly as straight. You should try it for yourself, before passing judgement. Have a nice day, my friend.
@@space.youtube Obviously I can't explain this to you. But I don't have to. Just try it for yourself and you'll see. Shoot thumb release without khatra and with it. You can clearly hear the arrow slapping the bow without khatra. Yet, with it, you only hear the string snapping back. If that doesn't do it for you, that's okay. You enjoy shooting whatever style you like the most.
Arrow shaft material is mostly a matter of personal preference. Carbon arrow shafts can be had in a wide variety of static spines, at least one of which is guaranteed to perform well with a given horsebow when used with a certain weight of arrow point. The same goes for wood arrows, although the numerical spine rating system is different for wood arrows than for carbon arrows. Feathers don't have much of an effect on the dynamic spine of an arrow because they are so light compared to the rest of the arrow. Once the arrow is released, feathers help get the arrow pointed in the direction of flight sooner by adding drag to the tail end of the arrow.
The center shot forces me to shoot the arrow on the left side only right? Can I grip a left hand bow with my right hand, so i can nock the arrow on the right side?
Ever since I was a kid, I've always been put off by the appearance of center-shot bows, because they make the bow look structurally weak. I wouldn't dream of constructing a bow that way, especially since I lean towards traditional or primitive ones.
If your preference is towards historical than whatever, not a big deal. But looking structurally weak and being structurally weak are two different things and something that you probably need to overcome because more often than not, it's just a bad judgement. Hell, bows in general tend to look weak.
NUSensei, Question, how come is so hard to fine left handed bow? when I was younger I had a left hand bow and I lost it like 30 years ago and I would like to get back into archery again, but I can't find a left handed bow any where, I went to every sporting good store and pawn shop near where I live, I even look online but no luck. do you know any where I can find one at a good price?
What country are you in , 3rivers in the US has the Samick sage in LH, or Australia try archery supplies in South australia Steven is a importer and retailer has left hands in stock. Click on the product usually it will have LH option to tick if you want a leftie.
www.southwestarcheryusa.com , www.3riversarchery.com or. www.lancasterarchery.com Between those you can find a leftie Lancaster you can do a search under hand orientation , southwest choose a bow then select rh or lh , 3rivers has search option. Problem will be stopping at buying just one ...
For my perspective< I see no need for precision. My bow has a cut out but the riser is aluminium so at least the risk of it snapping is near non existent.
Yup - that's essentially the advantage that target shooting brought to bow design. Since the arrow doesn't have to flex as much to clear a centre-cut bow, one can expect less deviation due to spine mismatch or poor execution.
@@NUSensei no. the arrows is equal prone to flex regardless of cs and spine, a bad tune is a bad tune an the string and fingers always ad oscillations . you can change the spine but not the variation in oscillation basically your swapping frequencies. dynamic spine
it's less critical because center shot bows are usually adjustable. also not as punishing when using fletched arrows which are too stiff. when I compare my longbow to my recurve, I can tune the recurve to many types of arrows, even off the shelf, by building up or cutting away thickness of the strike plate. With the longbow (with no cut out), this isn't an option, you have to spine the arrow correctly in order to get really good flight.
Historically, longbows would have been more prone to broken limbs with the Centre-Shot Shelves. They are not good for self-bows, handmade longbows. No thank you. Great video and explanation though.
if you look though second hand bows, you will find many (usually over 60-70lbs) where the person is selling due to back or shoulder injury. Also since the peak weight of the draw in a recurve/longbow is at the end of the draw length, it's very difficult and uncomfortable to shoot while overbowed. on the other hand, a compound bow's peak weight is somewhere in the middle of the draw, with the bow at full draw only requiring a fraction of the weight. This allows people to keep using bows which are too heavy for them for longer periods of time. with trad bows, they usually are forced to switch to a lower, more comfortable draw weight or quit.
"and very often people misunderstand what the archer's paradox is" then proceeds to do just that. When setting up a bow with a cut past/centre shot window, it's still setup (with a rug rest and plate) with the arrow (when nocked) pointing to the left of the string on a right handed bow. This means that a) archer's paradox is still evident, even if diminished. b) the arrow spines/bends around the riser. Again, even if the amount of 'bending around the riser' is considerably diminished when compared to a stick bow, it still occurs. To conclude, the arrow does a similar thing but it does so in different amounts because there has been a specific engineering solution applied. Correct arrow spine is still required, even on a cut away riser bcs the archer's paradox is intrinsic to finger/tab shooting and recurve/longbow archery. Whether shooting off the shelf or a rest, the combination of correct arrow spine and rest setup sees the arrow pointing to the left (or right for a lefty) of the string, meaning the arrow still bends around the riser or rest to a degree. So you really should stop saying that "modern cut away risers don't archer's paradox" because it is demonstrably wrong to say so. A little may not be alot, but it's still some and more than none.
You must be fun at parties 😂 The arrow flexes regardless of the bow. Because it's flexible and not stiff. What you just wrote an essay on is like comparing plastic to rubber. Yes, rubber bends and flexes and all that. But so does plastic. To a negligible degree, though. There comes a point when this becomes irrelevant. It's the same with the archers paradox. When the arrow flexes around the bow vs when it just bends under the force of the string. If you're gonna nitpick, do it in a more reasonable way.
@@space.youtube Hahaha, a very constructive argument. Instead of proving your point you stoop down to insults. It will probably go over your head, but this makes anything you say invalid to other people Either way, you have yourself a nice day there, Grumpy 😂
@@space.youtube I saw it. I didn't reply blindly you know. But when presented with a counter point, a wise man tends to present one for himself. You don't just go "no, you" like a child. The fact is, you were nitpicking, grasping at straws. Not to mention the khatra point in the other comment, where your brilliant answer was "lol". Again, like an edgy teenager. Especially when I tried to talk to you respectfully. We could have had a decent argument, presenting our own views. Instead you opted for this internet acronym to... I don't know...prove your superiority in a ridiculous way. Once you can muster up the maturity to talk to me like an adult, we can continue. Until then I stand by my plesant goodby.
But it makes a huge difference in the aiming department. With my centre shot bow I can basically look along the arrow to point it at the target and hit, with my bow without a shelf if I did the same my arrow would fly massively to the left of where I was aiming. Without centre shot I have a different aiming method, it's harder to do and different arrows have much more of an effect on the shot.
@@tjj4lab it means that your skill level is just too low. The higher the skill of the archer, the less the difference the center shot will make. You should probably aim to increase your skills with the bow instead of using tools and gimmicks right off the bat.
@@King_of_Antisemites What a nonsense thing to say. According to you someone should just "get gud" and win the olypics with an English longbow. There are ways to work around limitations, but the limitations are still there. I use a simply wooden/flibreglass recurve shot off the shelf, the only modern convience is the centre shot cutout.
A thing that is less forgiving inherently requires more skill to successfully utilize, sorry. Your contention that historical bows can be fired competently with the same ease as modern ones just isn't logical.
My line of thinking is this: using a less consistent tool with less consistent results doesn't prove the skill of the archer. The tool is the bottleneck. The technique is the same. A proficient archer with a modern shelf is going to shoot more accurately than an equal-skilled archer using a traditional bow with no shelf. Switch the archers, and we should see the same result based on the bow they used, not the person. What would be undeniable would be if someone uses an inferior tool to accomplish a greater result. If an English longbow shooter went up against a modern Olympic-style archer and outscored them, that's hands-down a sign of superior skill because we expect the modern archer to be capable of better scores with their equipment.
I'm surprised Nu didn't mention the obvious reason older bows weren't centre shot, if you cut a chuck out of an older one peice of wood bow, it would be far more likely to snap under full draw.
Modern materials allow us to create weak points in a bow such as centre shot cutouts because the materials are better at compenating, but older wood only bows wouldn't be able to take the strain on a weakened part. I've seen enough bows explode on the tiller jig to see why old bow makes wouldn't remove so much material from a bow.
Hm. I suppose the bow blowing up would be worth mentioning.
@@NUSensei yes when the bow bends the limbs must endure stress , with a cutout there's less material strength and making a bow without a shelf was less work and production .. with modern materials like fiberglass you reduce the risk
not exactly ... the material removed is not on the working part of the bow. you could just as well reinforce a stick bow with some other material. after all there were bows with strike plates/other type of rest in the past. however it was too complicated and too delicate to do in mass production ...
@@lubossoltes321 dependens on the bow som bows bend full compas trough the handle most moder bows accumulate stress at the fades and a flatt limb distributes it better than a d shape
The modern riser is thicker front-to-back at the position of the cutout, so there is more material to withstand the force on it when the bow is drawn. The historical bow's cross-section at that point is almost circular, so a cutout there would leave the riser significantly weaker.
A paradox is a contradictory or unexpected result. The archer’s paradox is neither the flexing or the offset but the fact that despite pointing off to one side the arrow will actually shoot more or less on a straight line as if through the centre of the stave.
The offset sets up the expectation of a result but the flexing causes the actual result.
That's the problem with calling it a paradox. An arrow doesn't fly where it's pointed like a missile; it points in the direction that it is flying. The motion of the string determines the motion of the center of mass of the arrow. Once in flight, the fletchings correct the orientation of the arrow to match the trajectory of the arrow. Describing it like a paradox misrepresents the physics of which forces determine the trajectory of the arrow.
Also, don't forget that a Straight riser made of just wood would be a little structurally weakened by putting a window in it. The modern day risers are designed to stay strong with the window.
Yeah, I may have glossed over it when I mentioned modern materials and manufacturing. You are absolutely right: you can't cut away half the bow and expect the same structural integrity. Modern bows have better laminate and composite materials, especially with the advent of fiberglass. Sport risers not only have exclusively modern material (carbon, aluminium) but also internal frames.
This is a great video for someone just starting with traditional bows. Thank you so much!
A thorough explanation of the issue. I've wondered about this myself- now I'm informed. Thank you, Nu. Flaxen Saxon.
Good point on the stiffness of the arrow. Thank you.
I wish you had talked a little bit about radiused "cut-off center" shooting shelf. Have a nice day.
I enjoyed this explanation even though I knew this material.
You do an excellent job as always. Thanks
Thank you. I try my best.
most modern bows with a wood riser are not truly center-shot. They will have a window cutout for the shelf but not beyond centerline of the bow; making the arrow off-center. Bows with a metal riser are usually stronger than wood, allowing for the window to be truly center-shot....example: the Hoyt Helix.
Great video and Topic. I still shoot both shelve and off the hand,. I agree with you that a shelf will shoot a stiffer spine more accurately in gerneral. After making about a hundred self, sinew backed, and a few laminated bows I found shelves can have less stability on self bows changing over time as the wood shifts. I also found when making bows with stone tools requires to initially shape the wood green. This can also cause some shifting and potential checking near a cut shelf as the wood dries over the next week, or weeks. Shelves also typically wear out fletching quicker than a shooting with appropriate wrist tension off the hand. I’ve found that Proper pre loaded wrist tension can be performed with both Asiatic or Mediterranean style releases by changing the rotation that wrist tension is applied on a roundish or flattish handle.
Cheers Man
Hi NUSensei for the next video, will you make a video about "English Longbow with Thumb Draw"
I would like to see thumb drawing with one of your excellent presentations too.
In my experience ELB's don't do terribly well with thumb draws, and to the best of my knowledge there is no good evidence they were ever used with such a draw. The limb profile doesn't lend itself to khatra. The same basic bow design is used all over the world, and all the cultures that make them use fingers. They just work best that way.
I would like to watch that.
I was about to buy a traditional bow but after watching your videos I think I just get a modern one
Excellent explanation! Thank you.
Great explanation. Thank you.
I would disagree on "same amount of skill". For an Asiatic archer, they would have to master khatra - which is one more set of motions. For a western style shooter, they would have to refine their technique since non-shelved bows are less forgiving. Would love to know your thoughts if you think otherwise. I do agree they're for different purposes and do not think one bow type is superior to the other.
Please don't get me wrong though - loved this video and love this channel! 🎯
toxophilite0525 Khatra was more a byproduct of having to work with extremely stiff arrow shafts which, when discharged would naturally fly at an angled trajectory and deviate it way off-course. It’s also generally encouraged that Khatra should be a natural consequence of biomechanical tension in the back and wrist being correctly dispersed upon release. Not every single Asiatic style of archery implemented and some actually advocated against Khatra; particularly certain prominent Chinese styles (there’s even this saying: “Don’t Khatra a Manchu bow”), though there is a more exuberant follow-through known as ‘Painting the Ground’. Primarily, it was the Islamic empires, the Mamluks and Turks who opted for it and to some extent, the Japanese also have a form of bow-clearing follow through movement.
with the trad longbow archer's i've shot with, some of them told me that they push or punch through the shot.
in essence this is a form of khatra. I don't know how traditional this is , but when seen in action, it is essentially creating the same effect where the bow moves out of the way of the arrow.
Hi your videos are nice easy to understand.
I am a hobbyist bow maker & fun archer.
pls tell me where is the "center shot window and arrow rest" are located on raiser / handle?
on the very center of the handle OR little above?
Good explanation!
How does the flat surface not rip off the feathers? I’ve been looking for a new rest for my bow, but I can’t find any but this flat one with hairs? And I don’t know if I’m gonna waste my time buying it or not
Many modern bow hunters now use extremely precise bows with highly advanced sights, carbon or aluminum frames with short thick springs pulling cam wheels which change the resting draw, whisker biscuits, scopes, balances, finger triggers, and even butt stocks [as opposed to cross bows which typically have butt stocks, but also have rails and some times have carriages, and now even magazines and cocking arms (fashioned loosely from the Chinese Lián Nŭ repeating bow, only highly advanced)].
The level of precision and power required for a bow on the ancient battlefield depended on the time period. In the late medieval period, armor had advanced to the point where it required very precise shooting from a very powerful bow to take down an armored enemy. The level of precision you are describing fits more in earlier periods with less advanced armor.
Can you please make a comprehensive video on arrow and bow tuning?
Just bought turkish bow. Still adjusting without center shot. Im RH and place d arrow on right side, slavic draw. Arrow fly always on d right side. Same with mediterranean style arrow fly always on the left. The arrow always hit d bow cause of noise it made and bruise to my bow.
Any suggestions what to do. Thanks
Thanks for explaining another archery mystery!
So the natural follow up question would be:
“Why do we use arrows with different spine today, couldn’t we all use the most stiff arrows with modern bows?”
I bought 5 different spined arrows, all the same make and from the same supplier to try and see which spine was best for my bow.. I did several practices and I notice that with my centre shot bow, my groupings at 20yards were less than an inch shooting 5 different arrows each end.
Spine charts tell me I should be shooting 500-600 spined carbon arrows, but my favourite arrows are actually spined 400, which is much stiffer than any arrow chart says I should be using.
With a finger release, there is still an element of flex that is needed for arrow clearance, and we still see that when not perfectly spined, the arrow will have a left/right deviation on target as the fletches have to do more work to correct the arrow flight, and inconsistent execution will amplify that spread. Arrow technology today has gotten to the point where an archer can pick the right arrow for their specific bow and draw and get an all-10 grouping at 70 metres, a feat that is virtually impossible with traditional equipment. Even with we allowed sights and stabilisers on a traditional longbow, it would not achieve the same consistency as a modern bow with modern arrows. Such precision on traditional equipment would be seen as superhuman. Modern developments have removed that ceiling and made it attainable with sufficient skill and training.
Compound bows with release aids are a different matter. Compound bows are much more forgiving of spine, and you can drill Xs with the wrong spine, and compound bows do uniquely have centre-shot designs with the arrow going through the riser.
@NUSensei thanks a lot.
I guess the arrow to allow me to get all 10s at 70m isn’t invented yet. So I’ll keep training and watching your videos until it happens.
Just on a point. You say it doesn't take more skill to use a traditional bow and then say the center shot bow is more forgiving which implies that it does require less skill to use a center shot bow. So yes it does take more skill/practice to use a historical bow design at the same level as more modern designs
I think that in the old days they typically shot instinctive and target was less important so when you learnt to shoot instinctive you do not aim with anything visual on the bow but your muscle memory compensates for the lack of cut out. I only look at the target when I shoot so it doesn't matter to me how the bow is setup. I'm also not very accurate either lol
I can confirm this. I only shot instinctive and I don't aim with the bow at all. It's almost like throwing a rock, or shooting with double pistols in akimbo style
I really want to know,why the arrow doesnt shoot from the center of the bow according to lenght of the whole thing. It always seems to be that the arrow sits on the top half of the string
Amazing Teacher
7:33 got to admit. NUsensie kinda lookin like a badass
Can you still mess around with thumb release and other styles of shooting with that center window? I've been looking at my bow with a center window and it feels very limited (super shrew 2)
Something I think you almost mentioned, that I've been wondering: With a center shot recurve, I can cant the bow, get the arrow directly under my eye, and basically do the horizontal aiming along the arrow. Can you still do that with a bow like an English longbow that is not center shot? Or is the point off to one side when aiming?
The need to cant the bow depends on the size of the cutout. If the riser blocks your vision, it helps to cant the bow. If the cutout is large enough to leave your vision unobstructed, there are some advantages to keeping the bow vertical. In either case, you can get the arrow below your eye by how you anchor.
Should I buy a cut to center or slightly past center?
great video mate
Thanks, great video
Why stiff arrows goes to the left and weak arrow arrows to the right? Can you make a video
Very detailed explanation. Well done. But I would disagree on the skill required point. Khatra takes a lot more time to master. And with it you eliminate the paradox entirely, just like with the center shot bow. I would even dare say it can produce a straighter shot because the arrow is not in contact with the shelf and bow the entire time of release.
Yes, I was confused myself. Nu said that there is no inherent skill difference between the two bows, but then in the next sentence says that the historical bow is less forgiving. I would have thought that a tool that is less forgiving would naturally require more skill (better/more consistent technique)
I don't think so. By the time you do your Khatra the arrow has long since cleared the bow. That's not to say it doesn't serve a purpose, but to say it's to clear the bow from the arrows path is just wrong.
@@space.youtube You, my friend don't know what you're talking about. No offense. A proper way to do khatra is to have the bow hand pull the string from your fingers. So how can the bow movement be late, if is what initiated the release? I have seen people say the exact same thing you just said, and it originated from a YT video of a guy who had no idea what khatra is supposed to do, and is primarily a western style shooter. Yes, khatra can add speed to the arrow, but it's primary purpose is to provide clearance for the arrow.
And what I said before, I said from my own experience. Without khatra my arrows don't fly nearly as straight. You should try it for yourself, before passing judgement. Have a nice day, my friend.
@@gizmonomono lol,
@@space.youtube Obviously I can't explain this to you. But I don't have to. Just try it for yourself and you'll see. Shoot thumb release without khatra and with it. You can clearly hear the arrow slapping the bow without khatra. Yet, with it, you only hear the string snapping back. If that doesn't do it for you, that's okay. You enjoy shooting whatever style you like the most.
When using a horsebow, would wooden arrows work better than carbon for flexing upon release? Also do feather fletchings help as well?
Arrow shaft material is mostly a matter of personal preference. Carbon arrow shafts can be had in a wide variety of static spines, at least one of which is guaranteed to perform well with a given horsebow when used with a certain weight of arrow point. The same goes for wood arrows, although the numerical spine rating system is different for wood arrows than for carbon arrows. Feathers don't have much of an effect on the dynamic spine of an arrow because they are so light compared to the rest of the arrow. Once the arrow is released, feathers help get the arrow pointed in the direction of flight sooner by adding drag to the tail end of the arrow.
The center shot forces me to shoot the arrow on the left side only right? Can I grip a left hand bow with my right hand, so i can nock the arrow on the right side?
Yes.
Great video and nice playing with you on mordhau .
Can you recommend where to buy a ELB in Australia, preferably a self-bow? That one you have looks nice. Hickory?
Can definitely recommend checking out outlaw bows, based in QLD. Great service and bows!
If your using a old style bow and you are right handed put the arrow in the right side for faster shooting
Have you seen any of the videos from a channel called Tod's Workshop?
Yes. Tod's team invited me to do a discussion/response video as well.
@@NUSensei I can't wait to to watch it.
Ever since I was a kid, I've always been put off by the appearance of center-shot bows, because they make the bow look structurally weak. I wouldn't dream of constructing a bow that way, especially since I lean towards traditional or primitive ones.
If your preference is towards historical than whatever, not a big deal. But looking structurally weak and being structurally weak are two different things and something that you probably need to overcome because more often than not, it's just a bad judgement. Hell, bows in general tend to look weak.
NUSensei, Question, how come is so hard to fine left handed bow?
when I was younger I had a left hand bow and I lost it like 30 years ago and I would like to get back into archery again, but I can't find a left handed bow any where, I went to every sporting good store and pawn shop near where I live, I even look online but no luck.
do you know any where I can find one at a good price?
They might not have it stock, but they should be able to bring one in if they're serious.
What country are you in , 3rivers in the US has the Samick sage in LH, or Australia try archery supplies in South australia Steven is a importer and retailer has left hands in stock. Click on the product usually it will have LH option to tick if you want a leftie.
@@thehopperhopes6365 I live in the US, so what website of the place to get it
www.southwestarcheryusa.com , www.3riversarchery.com or. www.lancasterarchery.com
Between those you can find a leftie
Lancaster you can do a search under hand orientation , southwest choose a bow then select rh or lh , 3rivers has search option. Problem will be stopping at buying just one ...
Thanks bro
For my perspective< I see no need for precision. My bow has a cut out but the riser is aluminium so at least the risk of it snapping is near non existent.
Why not put the center shot in the right side the cut out it is for faster shooting
So to sum it up, center-shot bows are less spine critical ?
Yup - that's essentially the advantage that target shooting brought to bow design. Since the arrow doesn't have to flex as much to clear a centre-cut bow, one can expect less deviation due to spine mismatch or poor execution.
@@NUSensei no. the arrows is equal prone to flex regardless of cs and spine, a bad tune is a bad tune an the string and fingers always ad oscillations . you can change the spine but not the variation in oscillation basically your swapping frequencies. dynamic spine
@@NUSensei No, that's incorrect. The spine requirements are different but nonetheless equally important.
@@space.youtube Ah, seems I misread the question and conflated things.
it's less critical because center shot bows are usually adjustable. also not as punishing when using fletched arrows which are too stiff.
when I compare my longbow to my recurve, I can tune the recurve to many types of arrows, even off the shelf, by building up or cutting away thickness of the strike plate.
With the longbow (with no cut out), this isn't an option, you have to spine the arrow correctly in order to get really good flight.
Historically, longbows would have been more prone to broken limbs with the Centre-Shot Shelves. They are not good for self-bows, handmade longbows. No thank you. Great video and explanation though.
@4:00 and hunting.
Ok can u do a video proving that a recurve bow cant hurt u ?
You can't prove a negative... and it would be naive to assume a recurve bow can't hurt you.
is not center shoot, is left side arrow reload method
There isnt one video I can find that has a recurve injury all compound bows does it mean these are absolutely safe 100%
if you look though second hand bows, you will find many (usually over 60-70lbs) where the person is selling due to back or shoulder injury.
Also since the peak weight of the draw in a recurve/longbow is at the end of the draw length, it's very difficult and uncomfortable to shoot while overbowed.
on the other hand, a compound bow's peak weight is somewhere in the middle of the draw, with the bow at full draw only requiring a fraction of the weight. This allows people to keep using bows which are too heavy for them for longer periods of time.
with trad bows, they usually are forced to switch to a lower, more comfortable draw weight or quit.
Hmm Clay Hayes makes Osage center shot bows.
Are windows bows cheaper than apple bows?
"and very often people misunderstand what the archer's paradox is"
then proceeds to do just that.
When setting up a bow with a cut past/centre shot window, it's still setup (with a rug rest and plate) with the arrow (when nocked) pointing to the left of the string on a right handed bow. This means that a) archer's paradox is still evident, even if diminished. b) the arrow spines/bends around the riser. Again, even if the amount of 'bending around the riser' is considerably diminished when compared to a stick bow, it still occurs.
To conclude, the arrow does a similar thing but it does so in different amounts because there has been a specific engineering solution applied. Correct arrow spine is still required, even on a cut away riser bcs the archer's paradox is intrinsic to finger/tab shooting and recurve/longbow archery. Whether shooting off the shelf or a rest, the combination of correct arrow spine and rest setup sees the arrow pointing to the left (or right for a lefty) of the string, meaning the arrow still bends around the riser or rest to a degree.
So you really should stop saying that "modern cut away risers don't archer's paradox" because it is demonstrably wrong to say so.
A little may not be alot, but it's still some and more than none.
You must be fun at parties 😂
The arrow flexes regardless of the bow. Because it's flexible and not stiff. What you just wrote an essay on is like comparing plastic to rubber. Yes, rubber bends and flexes and all that. But so does plastic. To a negligible degree, though. There comes a point when this becomes irrelevant. It's the same with the archers paradox. When the arrow flexes around the bow vs when it just bends under the force of the string.
If you're gonna nitpick, do it in a more reasonable way.
@@gizmonomono And you're too stoopid to be offencive. Thanks for the laugh.
@@space.youtube Hahaha, a very constructive argument. Instead of proving your point you stoop down to insults. It will probably go over your head, but this makes anything you say invalid to other people Either way, you have yourself a nice day there, Grumpy 😂
@@gizmonomono To claim you are 'too stoopid to be offencive' is not an ad hom fallacy if it is true.
See previous comment. lol
@@space.youtube I saw it. I didn't reply blindly you know. But when presented with a counter point, a wise man tends to present one for himself. You don't just go "no, you" like a child. The fact is, you were nitpicking, grasping at straws. Not to mention the khatra point in the other comment, where your brilliant answer was "lol". Again, like an edgy teenager. Especially when I tried to talk to you respectfully. We could have had a decent argument, presenting our own views. Instead you opted for this internet acronym to... I don't know...prove your superiority in a ridiculous way. Once you can muster up the maturity to talk to me like an adult, we can continue. Until then I stand by my plesant goodby.
Of a video on how to tell if ur bow string is garbage
Your little switch to the other video with facial hair fucked with my brain for a bit. :D
Why modern bows so modern
How many asian bow do you have
woohoo nuber 100. Tumb-Uper
What? There are archery myths?
Does it matter why? It doesn't change the fact that you still have to pull the bowstring and aim in order to shoot.
But it makes a huge difference in the aiming department. With my centre shot bow I can basically look along the arrow to point it at the target and hit, with my bow without a shelf if I did the same my arrow would fly massively to the left of where I was aiming.
Without centre shot I have a different aiming method, it's harder to do and different arrows have much more of an effect on the shot.
@@tjj4lab it means that your skill level is just too low. The higher the skill of the archer, the less the difference the center shot will make. You should probably aim to increase your skills with the bow instead of using tools and gimmicks right off the bat.
aim....lol
@@King_of_Antisemites cs does not matter a consistent Newtonian reaction does
@@King_of_Antisemites What a nonsense thing to say.
According to you someone should just "get gud" and win the olypics with an English longbow.
There are ways to work around limitations, but the limitations are still there.
I use a simply wooden/flibreglass recurve shot off the shelf, the only modern convience is the centre shot cutout.
A thing that is less forgiving inherently requires more skill to successfully utilize, sorry. Your contention that historical bows can be fired competently with the same ease as modern ones just isn't logical.
My line of thinking is this: using a less consistent tool with less consistent results doesn't prove the skill of the archer. The tool is the bottleneck. The technique is the same. A proficient archer with a modern shelf is going to shoot more accurately than an equal-skilled archer using a traditional bow with no shelf. Switch the archers, and we should see the same result based on the bow they used, not the person. What would be undeniable would be if someone uses an inferior tool to accomplish a greater result. If an English longbow shooter went up against a modern Olympic-style archer and outscored them, that's hands-down a sign of superior skill because we expect the modern archer to be capable of better scores with their equipment.
You are bassicly hanzo from overwatch without the ultimate stuff
How many asian bow do you have