It really heelps to hear counselor Hopkins full testimony before judging him. He clearly lists all he did including recommendations to the parents and dean. He also clearly has no legal ability to met out discipline or removal.
Yes your completely accurate. I caught myself judging him before hearing his full testimony. A good reminder to myself to know the complete full story before making assumptions off little snipits of information i get.
It’s a failure of school/county health policy. Kids with problems or signs of problems need assessment, search, removal and treatment. They didn’t even have a school nurse!
And people wonder why no one wants to be a teacher…just imagine how horrible it is to be in a place where you have to endure abominable parents and their creations.
...not to mention an administrator that does not support his/her teachers...been there, done that. It is awful and you couldn't pay me enough to go back to that profession.
I blame both of the parents for buying the gun and the shooter for not going to a hospital himself. Parents lose jobs then they cannot ha ave a place to live if they dont go to work. Shoiters Mom had 2 jobs to care for her family.Dad only did door dash.He had flexibility in.his job.HE should have taken the son to a hospital that day!! Counsellor said he should be near students even!!!!
These parents failed horribly and should be held accountable along with the son. Innocent people were murdered and caused a chain reaction of pain that can never be changed. This was preventable!!!!
Sure, but, see, this is a law court and the prosecutor has to PROVE manslaughter, not neglect or irresponsibility. And that is not easy. Though this defendant has done so much to help him. And so has the defense attorney. Many parents fail horribly. And some kids kill kids in school. Showing the connection between the bad parenting and sick kid and shooting and culpability is quite a thing to prove under law. Should, would and ought don't get you there. This trial just might.
All they have to prove? That's quite a high barrier, don't ya think? Have they done that much? Without any reasonable doubt. Guess the jury will decide. 50/50 I'd say. @@Sweetpea064
Although I am not familiar with the workings of the school system, it seems reasonable to me that counselor acted with good intentions to protect a student seemingly suffering from depression while the students parents were not too concerned.
I actually think this counselor did a lot more than most school counselors would do. At least more than any I’ve ever known. He showed concern and spoke with the shooter and his parents. He did all he could do.
@johnsefton9340 she spent around $2000 per month on her two horses and $0 on her child's health insurance.... When her son texted her, begging her to come home because he was hearing/seeing demons in the house and had therefore left the house, waiting outside, she went horseback riding instead.... When her horse had an illness she bought medication right away and administered it on a daily basis. When her child told her that he was hearing voices and seeing demons and begged her to take him to a psychiatrist, she did absolutely nothing. For years.
@@johnsefton9340: If you watch ALL the video's, you would have heard how IMPORTANT her horses were to her and how her son met Less to her. It's very obvious!
This counselor did what he thought he was right in the moment. He did not fail that student. The parents couldn’t be bothered. Imagine if they had listened to their son and the counselor, chances are that things wouldn’t have turned out the way they did. This situation was so preventable and that’s what is the most heartbreaking thing about it all.
He is at fault! So is EJACK The parents of oxford are currently in civil court suing this incompetent school district as an internal investigation revealed they did NOT follow school policy and were therefore NEGLIGENT
Teachers, school counsellors and administrators are not responsible for raising your children. They are responsible for educating your children with your support. To suggest that the school or the counsellor dropped the ball by the defence is disingenuous and patronising to the jury, she certainly is not assisting her client by claiming the counsellor should have done more. Mrs Crumbley should have prioritised her son above her extramarital affairs and horses! Emotional and physical neglect is still neglect, which is an aspect of child abuse.
Why did NO ONE simply look in the backpack. For heavens sake not one adult at that meeting did the one thing that would have saved those children. There was ample cause to look in his backpack.
I see all sides, but I don't think anyone knew what was to happen if they knew they would have prevented it. Lesson learned for all of us to be more diligent.
Are we watching the same thing? He seriously fumbled this. Multiple teachers were flagging this child for months and he’d make inept follow-up like just approaching the kid in the hallway with the canned expression “You can talk to me”. Im glad she was convicted but would like this guy to also face repercussions. He failed that child and his victims terribly.
He has the child psychology degree! Not the parents! EJaCK is at fault too! The parents of oxford are currently in civil court suing this incompetent school district as an internal investigation revealed they did NOT follow school policy and were therefore NEGLIGENT see for yourself
@@johnsefton9340 he had to give the parents time to react. He told them to get the child in treatment right away, would have checked the next day if the parents arranged that, and if not, call CPS. That's how it's supposed to be done
@@johnsefton9340 Perhaps he would’ve immediately if there had been a full disclosure from the parents about the newly purchased gun they got for their son‼️🤪
He may have a kind heart but he also has a very important job. Keeping students safe at school. Mothers fathers grandparents put their child's lives in the school's care. No question he should have have been diligent and looked in the backpack.
@@johnsefton9340No one can blame the parents of 9:24 the school district for being upset, but by no means is it this man’s fault. I think you far overestimate the power of a school counselor.
@@CraiiZeD what r u talking about. He did what he could tell the parents to take him to get him help. He then asked the dean what can be done. What could have this guy done who would think this would have happened
@@masshomegrower I think my gripe is with the whole system. School counselors can do almost nothing. And what is the dean going to say? He's not any better of a therapist/counselor or any type of security officer, he shouldn't be making those decisions. And that the school can't check a child's backpack? Why in the world would we give children that kind of power? It just doesn't make sense.
@@CraiiZeDare you KIDDING! His parents were the ones who should’ve given a damn about their own kid. He brought them in to a meeting that normally lasted an hour or more and they left after 12 mins. they were more put out than anything. There next stop should’ve been to a facility that could help him.
@@amuseherJust because the parents refused to take his advice, it doesn’t make him ineffective. He was restricted from helping by many sides. You sound like an @$$hole.
I’m surprised so many people are attacking this counselor. He made mistakes & I’m sure regrets them, but he is human & seemed to be the only one that cared about the kid.
I think he made the choice he was stuck with due to the parents. That is why they are getting manslaughter and not him. He told them in his opinion he needed help right away concerned about suicide, when they decided their work was more important, the counsler decided well since he is stuck at school and wants to go back to class, that it would be better mentally to be around people instead of isolated. How can people not see this? So frustrating.
Agreed. Despite being clearly overworked, he is the only one so far who has expressed any kind of care. He’s the first that seems to think of this child like a human being.
his testimony clearly shows that the parents - not this counselor - made mistakes. He went above & beyond to call the parents to the school but he could not force the parents to follow his guidance to take their son to therapy righ away. Also, he clearly stated that once the parents 'gave up' on their son and left the school, the counselor did not have the authority to remove the student from class - only the dean could have done that. This counselor did everything he could. The parents are callou idiots who cared more for their horses than their son .
Trying to discredit a school counselor? Wow, you dont have to be a counselor or have a degree in anything to see a child needs help and understand his parents didn't give a f. Counselors only have so much authority and unfortunately a lot is out of their hands. I do believe he wanted to help this kid but in those institutions your hands are kind of tied. We need nation wide procedure when it comes to this and more resources. Seeing the redirect is heartbreaking. You can see him realizing how different this could have turned out 💔
She didn't seem to be trying to discredit the counselor. If anything, she pointed out a less-than-ideal order of operations in the way the school deals with mental health and discipline-worthy actions, and exposed holes in what his college and licensing program trained him in (i.e., neglecting art interpretation). She also made it look as though Ethan was making an active effort to sometimes hide certain issues. I don't see how she was attempting to discredit him.
He had a duty as a mandated reporter to raise the alarm bells. The school officials who are TRAINED to deal with children who present like Ethan. ALL of the school officials are culpable.
True, Bu,t he should have checked Ethan's backpack and his locker asap. It's the School's responsibility to check backpack's and lockers of any student that has a complaint or concern against them. This was a time the teacher had CONCERN"S about Ethan drawings. The counselor has some fault in this situation.
My heart just goes out to Mr. Hopkins. I can’t imagine the trauma of the event, coupled with the publicity, comments on social media, how people who he thought were loyal & supportive to him prior to event; probably betrayed him so much.
Why are defense lawyers always so incredibly insufferable. Like I get it’s a hard job. But they’re ALWAYS such annoying PEOPLE who make the most absurd arguments.
Could be the plan, if the mother is found guilty she can say, "I had ineffective council. I want a do over". The mother can be hoping that if needed the second time around would find her not guilty.
@@Sweetpea064 Is this case it was very clearly the wrong decision. Their failure to make sound decisions addressing his m and eh requires accountability. They withheld everything critical that needed to be shared. 🥺
yes it is, they cannot buy it, but it can indeed be gifted to them. Happens all the time in families that hunt. May a parent or guardian purchase firearms or ammunition as a gift for a juvenile (less than 18 years of age)? Yes. However, persons less than 18 years of age may only receive and possess handguns with the written permission of a parent or guardian for limited purposes, e.g., employment, ranching, farming, target practice or hunting. May a parent or guardian purchase firearms or ammunition as a gift for a juvenile (less than 18 years of age)? [18 U.S.C. 922(x)]
As a retired school social worker of over 30 years my question is did the counselor do a lethality assessment on Ethan? If so, what were the results? If not, why not? I mean that step is school counseling 101. Also, did he do a threat assessment? Absolutely both of those steps should have been taken. When a student presents like this, they should automatically go to the top of the triage list of students who need to be seen that day. Additionally, Ethan's backpack should have been searched by the administrators in the building. They are the only ones who have permission to search a student's backpack and/or locker if they have reasonable suspicion. There was definitely reasonable suspicion. Ethan never should have been sent back to class. Part of the problem for mental health professionals in schools is their large caseloads sizes. It becomes extremely overwhelming and hard to manage when there are so many students with mental health needs who need to be seen in schools, especially after the pandemic, and not enough staff to see them. Anxiety and depression rates raised exponentially after the pandemic. School districts need to increase the number of mental health professionals that they employ and put more funding toward those positions. Schools are woefully understaffed in the area of social-emotional support personnel.
He doesn't have the power to send students home. And he did assessments, but if he's being lied to about the student's mental state, and he speaks to the parents and to the people who do have the power to send students home, there wasn't too much else he could do.
@@iUnderstand, what assessments did he do other than interview the student? He does not list one assessment that he did or what the results were. Pathetic. And while he did not have the authority to make sure the student went home the administrators could have strongly suggested it.
@007nadineL when I was in high-school if they heard about drugs or weapons from anyone they'd have the school police officer pull you out of class and search your bag. You're on school property so it's legal. That being said, school counselors can only do so much especially depending how he gauged this situation, I really feel for this counselor as well as every victim and the families. The guilt he has to live with must be overwhelming
The child needed to be referred to a psychiatrist immediately. Hearing voices is psychosis. The parents may possibly have been in denial. I don't know. It's complex. And heartbreaking.
The Defense lawyer acts like a spoiled toddler always whining. She’s overwhelmed and it’s everyone else’s fault. These parents cared more about their horses than their son. They needed to get rid of those horses and use that $1,000 per month for therapy for their son. Can the judge sustain or overrule objections? She is trying to help the Defense so bad it’s an obvious unfairness to the Prosecution.
I've been thinking the exact same thing, the judge literally helps out the defence and says why don't you ask the question this way, when she is leading the witness not a simple "objection" "sustained"
Oh man, she was hard to listen to. When the counselor said I can't answer that because it would be pure speculation. The attorney responded " I appreciate your response" and moved on🤦♀️
I'm hoping it's because the judge knows the defense is tanking the case and she wants to cover every base to avoid an appeal. Shannon is so bad it almost seems intentional, but at the same time I dont see how that would benefit her
I am over her being disrespectful to this witness, the counselor. Judge, DO YOUR JOB! This is unprofessional, rude, and downright borderline hostile from the defense attorney. Get your courtroom in order or recuse yourself. Your courtroom is an absolute joke & nightmare.
I watched 10 minutes of the defense and had to stop. She is so unprofessional, annoying, hostile, and indeed disrespectful! She doesn’t even know how to object correctly! Does she really have a JD?
@@myboyzr2she supposedly does. I’d like to see proof 😉 I guess she was the defense attorney for Larry Nassar, which is shocking. Yeah my bp goes up when she starts talking
I just commented this same thing! Are they seriously badgering him? He has a master's degree in school counseling and tried everything he could by calling his parents in and stressing the severity of their sons mental health, THEY decided not to take it seriously so why are THEY not on the stand? So infuriating. How dare they cast blame on the ones trying to help and ultimately having his hands tied.
My step-son needed and requested help (not risk to others, himself), as a teen and young adult. He received it in spades by both sets of parents. How does a parent just ignore this? Blatant negligence and chosen disregard!
I know that people are critical of the judge. I’m thinking that she is going to bend over backwards to make certain that there are no grounds that something was unfair to “mom”. Nobody wants to have the bereaved families have to go through this again. It is pretty infuriating. The defense lawyer is giving me a pain where I can’t reach it!
I know right. The judge let's the defense run the court room she might as well not be there if she's going to allow the defense to keep walking all over her like that.
@@beverlyhunter4182i think that's the opposite of what this person said. the judge is giving leeway to the defense so that the defense can't cry foul and ask for a retrial on the grounds that they received unfair treatment.
@Rtgvshdy did you see him jump with that loud noise while on the stand. He said he wanted the parents to take him home but he didn't want him alone either the school thought it was a self harm issue not a shooting spree issue and here in michigan without probable cause they couldn't search his back pack because he wasn't a problem child
In the 1990s, the CDC was beginning a study into gun violence. The premise was to examine why gun violence appears to behave like a viral outbreak. The NRA successfully lobbied not only to block the research study, but to cut the funding to the CDC. Hindsight is always 20/20. The NRA is solely responsible for handicapping schools across the country in their ability to identify shooters BEFORE they kill. There IS no protocol. Because schools don’t know exactly what to look for. Oxford clearly thought Ethan was a danger. But they thought he was a danger TO HIMSELF. That’s on the NRA. When you hamstring efforts to understand and combat the UNIQUE tragedy of school shootings that define the U.S., you can’t hold SCHOOLS liable. Parents? Absolutely. These parents OFFICIALLY broke the law by buying a handgun for their minor child. That is a literal, codified crime. The parents also failed to secure that handgun. ALSO a crime. They did BOTH of those things, KNOWING they had a kid prone to violent outbursts at home. The parents’ negligent behavior DIRECTLY led to the murders of 4 kids. The Involuntary manslaughter charges are warranted and if the jury convicts, they are also justified. The school counselor who is expected to oversee 400 students? No. The school who is expected to oversee 1800? No. You canNOT hold the school and its staff responsible when there is NO protocol for identifying school shooters. The fact that there is no protocol is the fault of the NRA. Get mad at the NRA.
@@annieb5647you mean like Uvalde, where 300+ armed professionals waited outside while kids were gunned down? Or like Parkland, where an armed school officer waited outside the building while the shooting was going on?
The defence is trying to hold the school councillor and teachers accountable. They are not responsible. They didn’t fail. Their job is to educate children but their time and resources are diverted to matters that they should not have to deal with. Parents are failing their children in these contemporary times. Parents are not devoting their time, attention and regard to their offspring like they should. There seems to be little if any discipline these days and children are not taught consequences for their actions. They are encouraged to challenge authority and they have no respect for their elders. That said, ultimately what it comes down to is that the Crumbley’s neglect their child, disregarded his calls for help and purchased a firearm for a damaged adolescent. They then ran away and tried to hide from the world when their son committed murder and mayhem.
@@theresadavis5518 Sometimes it takes a village! Maybe a class that should be included in the school curriculum is how to treat each other with care and respect and how to relate to different individuals! It's not just the times we live in you can go back all the way to the bible times when horrible acts of violence occurred! I do agree that a gun should have never been purchased! That was outrageous!
@@susankustich1720 You are right. The atrocities we read about in the bible are dreadful. The human condition has been corrupted for thousands of years. We like to think of ourselves as civilised these days,however. A special class in basic civility and understanding of other people would be a great thing.
Defense lawyer yikes! There’s no defending this mom. She choose to go back to work instead of taking her son to a hospital for help. All she had to do was take him to the emergency department and have a psychiatrist evaluate him. She clearly didn’t want to deal with him and his issues.
I don't understand the defense attorney's line of questioning on same day therapy. It's not relevant whether or not a same day appointment is easy to obtain because the whole principle is that the SOONER you try, the SOONER you will obtain an appointment. The parents were not showing the initiative of getting their son help ASAP.
It's about the counselor's professional responsibilities when it comes to appropriate referrals to the needs they believe the student has that are viable with insurance, level of care (intensity of intervention), etc. and in this case, she is addressing appropriate referrals that are viable for his perceived urgency of care Ethan needed. They are responsible for the referrals meeting those criteria of availability.
This defense attorney is the college tryhard girl with 15 different color highlighters to mark up every piece of study material she has in rainbow color codes, who stays up until 4am cramming for every exam, but then immediately forgetting the material a week later.
@@Peace-tk3gr She’s a dreadful excuse for a defense attorney and additionally she’s frustrating and annoying to even listen to. 🤷♀️🙅🏼♀️🤯😵💫She must be court appointed…
Oh wow, the judge commented...."well, no one os excited to come to school!?" Wth. THAT is unprofessional, an innuendo and degrades the testimony of the witness.
Omg her point about him not getting a therapy appointment the day of the shooting is INFURIATING - they didn’t seek therapy for Ethan, they were encouraged to take him home to seek therapy immediately, THEY DIDN’T EVEN CALL. They went back to work and ignored his texts after that.
AAARGH and her persistently trying to point out he wasn’t disciplined for any of the red flags is EXACTLY the problem. I really think the parents rushed there thinking he was in trouble for drawing in class and this would be a disciplinary meeting. That’s why they rushed down then weren’t interested and left. That’s why she sent the picture around saying “this is what I’m dealing with” to her boss. He was a problem to her not a concern.
It's absolutely not true that the the school cannot keep a student out of class as he said. If there is a mental health concern the student can be Baker acted by the school or the SRO can insist the student be taken home until the home can be visited so a threat assessment can be made
Question: In this violent society that is full of cartoons, comics, TV shows, movies, etc. that depict continual violence, killing, weapons, explosions, etc.: How many students doodle weapons, violence, etc.?
How many beg their parents for a gun and get it? How many write things like "the voices won't stop. Help me"? How many tell their parents they hear voices and get told to suck it up?
I don't have children but I know so many who all have video games with violence with shooter'. I would never buy my child violent video'. They spend hour' per day playing these video' they are obsessed with them.
I used to stuff my feelings. One day I drew a picture of a gun,, then made it into a rifle, and then drew a cannon that shot out a big ball that had a little person in it who was sawing his way out, but I put a strip in front of the blade that prevented him from sawing his way out. The ball made a big explosion and I felt so much pressure relieved......sigh....if only drawing pictures had been enough to release HIS stress....
Uh, no. His parents said no to him constantly. He begged his mom to come home because he heard voices and saw demons and needed help. She said no and went horseback riding instead. He begged them several times to take him to a psychiatrist because of being tormented by voices and demons and they said no every single time. They paid about $2000 a month for their horses but didn't get health insurance for their son, which is a disgusting "no". And finally they were shown a drawing their son made. A drawing of a shooting with the words "the voices don't stop. Help me." How much clearer can he be? They were asked to get him professional help immediately and said "no" for a final time.
I think all the adults in the room should have used their brains like adults, not like robots in a rigid policy filled school system. The parents should have done (much) better, and the school should have done better to do a proper search for a weapon that they thought could potentially be on campus.
The defense attorney is a headache. She is rude , disrespectful and inappropriate. The judge seems to have a liking to her therefore won’t reprimand her. Such a disgrace to the families.
I don’t at all blame the counselor, but I don’t understand why it’s not standard procedure in all schools to check a backpack/belongings when a student is suspected of potential self harm.
In my opinion....I believe Ethan did the drawling on purpose and the school and parents failed him. Idk why the school isnt being charged. He was crying for HELP
Is it me or do the defense’s questions seem leading and more like arguments? She can’t just ask, “Did you call Mrs. Crumbley?” It’s always, “You didn’t call Mrs. Crumbley, is that correct?”, or “such and such a statement, this is what I think…is that correct?” That and her whiny voice. It’s hard to take.
both. i really don't like the way the counselor is dodging questions, like dude just admit you read the situation wrong. doesn't make him guilty but denying and not recalling things all the sudden is so annoying
@@CraiiZeD I don’t see him dodging questions, and he read the situation as a serious one, kept the kid in his office until a parent showed up, scheduled a meeting with him for the next morning and told him he was available if he needed him, but didn’t have authority to do anything beyond that.
True. When questioning the gun seller, she received answers that on paper look like the opposite of what the seller meant. So weird how long and complicated she makes the questions
The issue I see here is that the mother was called in with concerns, and her son was left at school. The school is not responsible for the mental wellness of their students. That is a PARENTS responsibility. This man was observing a behavior, and he called the parents. This attorney is trying to fault the counselors. She's despicable.
The school is responsible for the physical safety of the students on their campus. Seeing a child draw what he drew, the counselor's first concern should have been for the students on campus. He should have gotten school officers involved and had them check the students book bag and campus before deciding the student was merely suicidal.
The way he closed his eyes when asked about the gun drawing and then jumped when Jennifer’s lawyer stood up has me in tears for him. I hope he remains in therapy and can find peace after all this trauma.
After each of her statements I would ask her if she’s asking a question. This would bring it to this sleeping judge’s attention that this defense attorney is making statements not asking questions!
The Counselor is getting an attitude, being defensive but he must know the school literally dropped the ball The parents failed the kid-miserably so-as well as the school administration-worst of all they failed all the victims. So, lose the attitude dude.
Could someone explain something for me…when airhead attorney would object and the DA responded with “same as before, your Honor. And then the Judge herself would directly question the witness. I have never seen that before. I hope someone can explain it for me. Thanks in advance.
defense attorney was making the same objection because you need to make a record of all objections. prosecutor is allowed to rebut an objection, and as the objection remained the same; so did his response. the judge chose to help by reestablishing the grounds so as to head the defense attorney off at the pass. i think other judges may have simply overruled or sustained and advised counsel to reword the question, but this judge was giving the defense a lot of leeway and here's why: with high profile cases like this especially, we do not want an appeal or retrial in the grounds that the defendant received unfair treatment. we want it done right and thorough the first time. unfortunately that's going to mean some repetitive stuff like relitigating every question lol, but it is for a purpose.
@@juliaroy1382the parent is responsible. They bought lethal weapon and allowed a person who is not mentally stable have access to it. On top of that they ignored his cries for help. The parent saw the drawing too and they decided to let him stay. See the interview with the mom, she said she was not concerns about the drawing. If I were a parent and I saw this drawing knowing very well my child does have gun access I would be concerned and pull the child out of school
I lost a brother thru suicide,. Our whole family were unaware of his suicidal state, but shocked at his actions. He didn't take anyone out. We are still asking ourselves questions about our family.
So why is okay for the defense attorney to ask leading questions but she complains & objects when the prosecution does?!? Cripes, the defense attorney gives me a headache. 🙄🤦🏼♀️🤬
Because she’s allowed to ask leading questions on cross, you can’t ask leading questions when it’s your own witness. She’s doing her job, just the same as the prosecution will object to leading questions when it’s one of the defense witnesses
@@dwh751 She definitely is, because her client is completely indefensible. But see @mama comment above to see why the defense attorney is allowed to ask questions the way she is.
There should have been only one option that day; one that the counselor did not testify to.. Student should have been referred to and evaluated by a crisis center and their professionals for immediate evaluation and appropriate next steps. How can a high school not have a protocol in place for crisis situations ? Or, is there a protocol in place and counselors did not know/follow? They have fire drills, etc but no protocol for a student who needs immediate mental health evaluation?
Especially when males, in particular, start showing signs/symptoms of mental health issues, such as schizophrenia, in their mid-late teens, never mind the host of other mental health issues students, in general, deal with today.
Law enforcement can EOD, emergency order of detention, but Ethan likely wouldn’t not have met the criteria since he said he was fine and related the drawing to a video game he was supposedly designing.
Unless they are restrained Hannibal Lecter style in a rubber room a person that wants to self harm can make ANYTHING a weapon. Now, not disclosing that this person has access to a Roscoe seems far and away worse imo
The parent seemed to feel li!e this meeting a the school, was an INCONVENIENCE! 🤷🏼♀️..pretty much says it all doesn't it!....not every human, should be a parent!..🙄🤷🏼♀️
He had a drawing of a gun and no questions as to his access to the gun or if he planned to use it to harm anyone. This courtroom conduct feels more like a mock trial set up by law school students. Not once has the judge said "sustained" or "overruled" to the objections, she just rephrases it for the prosecutor, interesting. The parents seemed quite narcissistic and only concerned with their hobbies and jobs.
Blaming educators for a school shooting they had to live through is despicable. How much counseling is one able to do if they have to larp all day as the ATF?
In this day & age of gun lovers, you all realize that tougher regulations that would have assisted in expulsion... These parents would have been the first to protest tougher regulations.
Parents don't seem to put their children's best interest first anymore. They have them and expect other people to raise them and teach them right and wrong.
@@jlorde8838 I would contend the mother had awareness of very concerning things long before the school did...she should have gone to the school in the spring to inquire about help for her child that was reporting hallucinations and asking his parents to take him to the Dr... schools are a resource for children and families.
It's crazy after viewing Ethan's diagram that there was no reason to keep him from going back to class! Ethan's backpack should have been searched and authorities called! Do these people live under a rock and not aware of all the past school shootings! Geez!
You’re not wrong! I have my first and only baby, she’s 9 months old, and I can’t even imagine sending her to school someday. Seems like sending them into a war zone. And they’re such precious sweet loving innocent kids. Why aren’t we keeping them safe????
The school had a counselor, but he doesn’t seem to have any authority. He didn’t seem to be allowed to talk to Ethan in any depth. Even though there had been students that had committed suicide. Ethan’s parents weren’t talking to him, and it’s not ok for the counselor. Who is actually there for the students? Now they have a school shooting and a number of suicides. Certainly, with all the school shootings hasn’t someone noticed a pattern of behavior? There’s a picture of a gun and no one even asks Ethan if he is familiar with guns, has a gun or wants a gun. Why was the school so reluctant to engage with Ethan? The counselor seems to have had his hands tied, he wasn’t allowed to do what he felt was best for Ethan. Just with the mother’s text, saying Ethan don’t do it. She knew.
As a licensed counselor did you ever ask if Ethan had access to a gun? Did you ever ask if there were guns in the home? Did you ever ask the parents if he had ever expressed similar feelings before Nov 30? As a licensed counselor did you ask Ethan if he was suicidal? If he was homicidal? If he had a plan of how he would commit suicide? The are basic questions that ANY licensed counselor would ask! Yes the parents are guilty, but there is NO question that this counselor is also guilty of negligence!
A school counselor and a counselor are not the same thing. They may receive similar training but as someone who has dealt with both, they are absolutely not the same. The majority of his job is scheduling classes that's not counseling that's administration. Unfortunately these counselors rarely actually help kids with mental health issues.
See major hindsight bias in these comments. Nobody here had rough teen years!!?... hormones, low confidence, feel inadequate, lonely, depression - did your parents rush you to a psych eval? Come on. Wake up. Neither counselor nor parents expected this tragedy. If we could predict murder so clearly, then there would be no murder.
It was locked up, from what i heard during the trial, bullets and key to lock in separate places, he just found them, so not hidden good enough. @@patriciamurfitt4590
They didn't call until the evening before. Thats what was said in trial. Ghen the next morning they were asked to come to the school because of the drawing. Then asked to get counseling for him, but dent back to class and an hour later started shooting.
@@mtz6198 I have my Masters and taught for over 30 yrs until I retired. My “airhead” was in reference to her flight of ideas; her over the top behaviors, and her lack of preparation
@@songbirds3712 I agree she's wildly under prepare to say the least, but to be fair, we've all had those type of moments. I'm sure in your 30yrs you had your fair share of regretful "airhead" moments. We're a flawed specie. And even with our commonalities and shared experiences, we still offer judgement far more than grace. Humans. We suck.
These parents were hoping their son would off himself and their responsibilities would be over. I have seen this before by parents and this is the most obvious case of that I have ever seen. They were already happy that their older son Eli had left the home.
Reporting is not reporting to the police. It means calling child protective services. The counselor said he was going to do that if the parents didn't send him to therapy.
This defense attorney keeps asking questions she should know the answer to. She's constantly asking him questions that doesn't fall under his responsibility. She also kept referring him as the shooter which is bad. She still hasn't proved the parents actually cared about their kid. He wanted him to get help ASAP.
When did it become the school’s responsibility to monitor the kid’s mental state? Shouldn’t the parents be more in-tuned to what is going on with their own kid than the school? If they are close to their kids they should be able to tell if the kid is having issues and it seems that this kid was sending up fireworks about his mental state for a long time and the parents were ignoring them.
This woman is guilty of not being a high quality parent - as are millions of parents across the world - and up until now the idea of this being crime was laughable - but in 2024 - we have thrown all common sense aside - so this is probably now is a crime.
Escalation of behavior of the shooter is quite clear. Unfortunately this counselor did not pick it up at all. Demonstrates the need for schools to have MH therapists vs. School counselors who are torn between required school evaluations for learning disabilities, career counseling, etc. and have less time and experience in actual MH counseling. It’s pretty clear he was a risk for self-harm, and a highly probable risk for the safety of others. Massive failure by many people, but mostly the parents. 😢
Wow, the prosecutor put a hard stamp on this testimony in the last 4 minutes - how derelict the mom was in not having a candid conversation with the student counselor about the problems her son was having. That was so telling.
People are dissing the defense attorney, but she's scoring a lot of points. She's showing that people trained to spot dangerous situations were unable to determine whether the student posed an imminent threat.
But he did identify there was a threat. Unfortunately the threat he thought was the kid harming himself. He raised an alarm and it was ignored. As a school counselor you only have so many options. This is why we need nationwide protocols on how to handle this stuff and resources to get these kids the help they need even if their parents don't give a f.
But not imminent threat of harming others or himself was determined by the professionals who reviewed the situation. That's the line that the defense is drawing. @@darrylg3861
He raised the alarm with the principle and the parents what else could he have done the parents dismissed him . The parents also weren't forth comming with information they knew either. The parents knew he was in danger just not the danger everyone thought
We should remember that the counselor is motivated to describe his concerns about Ethan in a way that doesn't open himself up to criminal liability. That may be why he's saying he was only concerned about self-harm and was not worried that Ethan would be a danger to other students.
It really heelps to hear counselor Hopkins full testimony before judging him. He clearly lists all he did including recommendations to the parents and dean. He also clearly has no legal ability to met out discipline or removal.
Yes your completely accurate. I caught myself judging him before hearing his full testimony. A good reminder to myself to know the complete full story before making assumptions off little snipits of information i get.
The parents intentionally withheld critical information on the firearm‼️🤬
And the school withheld two prior meetings with Ethan, from the parents!!!! Blame all around. @@BeegirlsHoneyHouse
It’s a failure of school/county health policy. Kids with problems or signs of problems need assessment, search, removal and treatment. They didn’t even have a school nurse!
@@j.y.3604
No doubt, murderous mayhem no matter with those two lame axx parents‼️🤬🇺🇸⚖️
And people wonder why no one wants to be a teacher…just imagine how horrible it is to be in a place where you have to endure abominable parents and their creations.
agree and then we also wonder why the teacher quality is generally low
...not to mention an administrator that does not support his/her teachers...been there, done that. It is awful and you couldn't pay me enough to go back to that profession.
I blame both of the parents for buying the gun and the shooter for not going to a hospital himself. Parents lose jobs then they cannot ha ave a place to live if they dont go to work. Shoiters Mom had 2 jobs to care for her family.Dad only did door dash.He had flexibility in.his job.HE should have taken the son to a hospital that day!! Counsellor said he should be near students even!!!!
No one forces anyone to be a teacher !
You aren't suit......take the quit !
These parents failed horribly and should be held accountable along with the son. Innocent people were murdered and caused a chain reaction of pain that can never be changed. This was preventable!!!!
Sure, but, see, this is a law court and the prosecutor has to PROVE manslaughter, not neglect or irresponsibility. And that is not easy. Though this defendant has done so much to help him. And so has the defense attorney. Many parents fail horribly. And some kids kill kids in school. Showing the connection between the bad parenting and sick kid and shooting and culpability is quite a thing to prove under law. Should, would and ought don't get you there. This trial just might.
She’s being charged with manslaughter due to her “gross negligence”. That is all they have to prove.
All they have to prove? That's quite a high barrier, don't ya think? Have they done that much? Without any reasonable doubt. Guess the jury will decide. 50/50 I'd say. @@Sweetpea064
It is not right to charge others for crimes they did not commit themselves.
@@K.Adamsanif gross negligence led to deaths then yes it is...it's called manslaughter...in this case involuntary but nonetheless manslaughter.
Although I am not familiar with the workings of the school system, it seems reasonable to me that counselor acted with good intentions to protect a student seemingly suffering from depression while the students parents were not too concerned.
I actually think this counselor did a lot more than most school counselors would do. At least more than any I’ve ever known. He showed concern and spoke with the shooter and his parents. He did all he could do.
If that was my child's drawing with both the teacher and councilor I would not have gone back to work.
Her horses were more important then her own son that' why she went back to work . . . Sick !
@@phyllisniper8066 proof?
@johnsefton9340 she spent around $2000 per month on her two horses and $0 on her child's health insurance....
When her son texted her, begging her to come home because he was hearing/seeing demons in the house and had therefore left the house, waiting outside, she went horseback riding instead....
When her horse had an illness she bought medication right away and administered it on a daily basis. When her child told her that he was hearing voices and seeing demons and begged her to take him to a psychiatrist, she did absolutely nothing. For years.
vaniaeeryneke: I agree. I would go to one of the Clinics or doctors, maybe 2 or 3 to get my soon seen asap. No way I would go back to work or home.
@@johnsefton9340: If you watch ALL the video's, you would have heard how IMPORTANT her horses were to her and how her son met Less to her. It's very obvious!
This counselor did what he thought he was right in the moment. He did not fail that student. The parents couldn’t be bothered. Imagine if they had listened to their son and the counselor, chances are that things wouldn’t have turned out the way they did. This situation was so preventable and that’s what is the most heartbreaking thing about it all.
No he failed the students who were killed and wounded.
@@Zzx75you’re purposefully ignorant, and pretty insufferable
The gun should have never been gifted to him.😢
He is at fault! So is EJACK
The parents of oxford are currently in civil court suing this incompetent school district as an internal investigation revealed they did NOT follow school policy and were therefore NEGLIGENT
@@lorettadavis2456 there were already 2 guns in the home!
That argument is irrelevant
Teachers, school counsellors and administrators are not responsible for raising your children. They are responsible for educating your children with your support. To suggest that the school or the counsellor dropped the ball by the defence is disingenuous and patronising to the jury, she certainly is not assisting her client by claiming the counsellor should have done more. Mrs Crumbley should have prioritised her son above her extramarital affairs and horses! Emotional and physical neglect is still neglect, which is an aspect of child abuse.
Why did NO ONE simply look in the backpack. For heavens sake not one adult at that meeting did the one thing that would have saved those children. There was ample cause to look in his backpack.
They may not be responsible to raise kids but they are responsible to take red flags seriously and protect other students.
You definitely may not like Mrs Crumbly but those poor parents did not entrust their child's life to Mrs Crumbly.
And
I see all sides, but I don't think anyone knew what was to happen if they knew they would have prevented it. Lesson learned for all of us to be more diligent.
What a kind hearted and gentle man. He is one of the VERY few who actually wanted to help him. Including his own parents
Are we watching the same thing? He seriously fumbled this. Multiple teachers were flagging this child for months and he’d make inept follow-up like just approaching the kid in the hallway with the canned expression “You can talk to me”. Im glad she was convicted but would like this guy to also face repercussions. He failed that child and his victims terribly.
@@jakestroll6518EXACTLY AND THANK YOU... THIS GUY AND OTHERS SHOULD BE ON TRIAL TOO
The councelor is not responsible, HE had no knowledge of the gun and the REAL circumstances in the household.
Exactly. I totally understand him not wanting to send the kid home if he was just going to be home alone. He was concerned for his safety.
He has the child psychology degree! Not the parents! EJaCK is at fault too!
The parents of oxford are currently in civil court suing this incompetent school district as an internal investigation revealed they did NOT follow school policy and were therefore NEGLIGENT see for yourself
@@TheBeezusjones but not concerned enough to call cps🤔
@@johnsefton9340 he had to give the parents time to react. He told them to get the child in treatment right away, would have checked the next day if the parents arranged that, and if not, call CPS. That's how it's supposed to be done
@@johnsefton9340
Perhaps he would’ve immediately if there had been a full disclosure from the parents about the newly purchased gun they got for their son‼️🤪
I love this counselor. He has such a kind heart.
I know 😢. I feel for him.
My heart goes out to him. He seems to have made the best decisions he could with the information he had, with the limited authority he had.
He’s got blood on HIS hands!
All the parents and students are currently suing him and trying to have him and the principal and superintendent removed!
He may have a kind heart but he also has a very important job. Keeping students safe at school. Mothers fathers grandparents put their child's lives in the school's care. No question he should have have been diligent and looked in the backpack.
@@johnsefton9340No one can blame the parents of 9:24 the school district for being upset, but by no means is it this man’s fault. I think you far overestimate the power of a school counselor.
This counselor is so heartwarming sympathetic. ❤️ such a shame that today’s parents seems to way too busy to be present for their children. 😢
Thanks capitalism
He seems like a decent guy, like he would make an effective guidance counselor.
he said his training was to 'let the parents handle it, he didnt do anything
@@CraiiZeD what r u talking about. He did what he could tell the parents to take him to get him help. He then asked the dean what can be done. What could have this guy done who would think this would have happened
@@masshomegrower I think my gripe is with the whole system. School counselors can do almost nothing. And what is the dean going to say? He's not any better of a therapist/counselor or any type of security officer, he shouldn't be making those decisions. And that the school can't check a child's backpack? Why in the world would we give children that kind of power? It just doesn't make sense.
@@CraiiZeDare you KIDDING! His parents were the ones who should’ve given a damn about their own kid. He brought them in to a meeting that normally lasted an hour or more and they left after 12 mins. they were more put out than anything. There next stop should’ve been to a facility that could help him.
@@amuseherJust because the parents refused to take his advice, it doesn’t make him ineffective. He was restricted from helping by many sides. You sound like an @$$hole.
I’m surprised so many people are attacking this counselor. He made mistakes & I’m sure regrets them, but he is human & seemed to be the only one that cared about the kid.
The parent should have taken the child home and to a doctor asap.
I think he made the choice he was stuck with due to the parents. That is why they are getting manslaughter and not him. He told them in his opinion he needed help right away concerned about suicide, when they decided their work was more important, the counsler decided well since he is stuck at school and wants to go back to class, that it would be better mentally to be around people instead of isolated. How can people not see this? So frustrating.
Agreed. Despite being clearly overworked, he is the only one so far who has expressed any kind of care. He’s the first that seems to think of this child like a human being.
his testimony clearly shows that the parents - not this counselor - made mistakes. He went above & beyond to call the parents to the school but he could not force the parents to follow his guidance to take their son to therapy righ away. Also, he clearly stated that once the parents 'gave up' on their son and left the school, the counselor did not have the authority to remove the student from class - only the dean could have done that. This counselor did everything he could. The parents are callou idiots who cared more for their horses than their son .
The counselor was a Youth Pastor before he became a School Counselor. I don't think he's a Bad Guy. People need to ease up on him.
Trying to discredit a school counselor? Wow, you dont have to be a counselor or have a degree in anything to see a child needs help and understand his parents didn't give a f. Counselors only have so much authority and unfortunately a lot is out of their hands. I do believe he wanted to help this kid but in those institutions your hands are kind of tied. We need nation wide procedure when it comes to this and more resources. Seeing the redirect is heartbreaking. You can see him realizing how different this could have turned out 💔
The lawyers job is literally to try and discredit the counselor here.
She didn't seem to be trying to discredit the counselor. If anything, she pointed out a less-than-ideal order of operations in the way the school deals with mental health and discipline-worthy actions, and exposed holes in what his college and licensing program trained him in (i.e., neglecting art interpretation). She also made it look as though Ethan was making an active effort to sometimes hide certain issues. I don't see how she was attempting to discredit him.
He had a duty as a mandated reporter to raise the alarm bells. The school officials who are TRAINED to deal with children who present like Ethan. ALL of the school officials are culpable.
Not sure what he could have done differently however!
@@amuseherLimited signs shown at school! His parent's were aware of much more however!
Oh that poor counselor, he looks so distressed answering those questions , I feel so bad for him😢
He's distressed because he is being blamed for what happened. Gotta blame someone, right?
True, Bu,t he should have checked Ethan's backpack and his locker asap. It's the School's responsibility to check backpack's and lockers of any student that has a complaint or concern against them. This was a time the teacher had CONCERN"S about Ethan drawings. The counselor has some fault in this situation.
He never ever should have had access to the gun in the first place.
@@janephillips3627 I think the counselor explained that the protocol had not been met for that action to be taken, of searching the backpack.
@@Wherever56 💯
My heart just goes out to Mr. Hopkins. I can’t imagine the trauma of the event, coupled with the publicity, comments on social media, how people who he thought were loyal & supportive to him prior to event; probably betrayed him so much.
The counselor is amazing. The defense attorney sucks
100% agree with you
@@mafaldacastro5152 I agree 1,000%
He really tried to get him help and the parents didn’t want to bother with it . At least he told him he cared …..
The gun should never had been gifted to him. 😢
Why are defense lawyers always so incredibly insufferable. Like I get it’s a hard job. But they’re ALWAYS such annoying PEOPLE who make the most absurd arguments.
Because they are trying to zealously fighting for their client. Very annoying but just doing their job.
She is at another level though
That's how it is when you know you have a losing case and no idea how to get out of it.
Because they all work for the corporation...not the people.
It’s the same NUTJOB who defended Larry Nassar. She’s an absolute piece of garbage.
Wow…defense lawyer is no Camille Vasquez. She’s a mess.
She was even worse yesterday!
@@marilynlangley-ws8xxI’m just shocked at how many times she whined to the judge “I’m doing my best!” The second hand embarrassment is unbelievable!
I would guess she went to Michigan Law School. Based on putting two and two together.
Could be the plan, if the mother is found guilty she can say, "I had ineffective council. I want a do over". The mother can be hoping that if needed the second time around would find her not guilty.
@@axemangang1584 not a lawyer on this planet would do this intentionally while televised globally.
That mom was so busy with her needs,desires and affairs she abandoned her son .I say she is guilty
is it legal to give a 15yr old a gun and bullet why would parents do that
No it’s not.
@@Sweetpea064
Is this case it was very clearly the wrong decision. Their failure to make sound decisions addressing his m and eh requires accountability. They withheld everything critical that needed to be shared. 🥺
yes it is, they cannot buy it, but it can indeed be gifted to them. Happens all the time in families that hunt.
May a parent or guardian purchase firearms or ammunition as a gift for a juvenile (less than 18 years of age)?
Yes. However, persons less than 18 years of age may only receive and possess handguns with the written permission of a parent or guardian for limited purposes, e.g., employment, ranching, farming, target practice or hunting. May a parent or guardian purchase firearms or ammunition as a gift for a juvenile (less than 18 years of age)?
[18 U.S.C. 922(x)]
As a retired school social worker of over 30 years my question is did the counselor do a lethality assessment on Ethan? If so, what were the results? If not, why not? I mean that step is school counseling 101. Also, did he do a threat assessment? Absolutely both of those steps should have been taken. When a student presents like this, they should automatically go to the top of the triage list of students who need to be seen that day. Additionally, Ethan's backpack should have been searched by the administrators in the building. They are the only ones who have permission to search a student's backpack and/or locker if they have reasonable suspicion. There was definitely reasonable suspicion. Ethan never should have been sent back to class. Part of the problem for mental health professionals in schools is their large caseloads sizes. It becomes extremely overwhelming and hard to manage when there are so many students with mental health needs who need to be seen in schools, especially after the pandemic, and not enough staff to see them. Anxiety and depression rates raised exponentially after the pandemic. School districts need to increase the number of mental health professionals that they employ and put more funding toward those positions. Schools are woefully understaffed in the area of social-emotional support personnel.
He doesn't have the power to send students home. And he did assessments, but if he's being lied to about the student's mental state, and he speaks to the parents and to the people who do have the power to send students home, there wasn't too much else he could do.
Add the fact it’s more common too seek guidance/therapy now. I think it’s time we get more counselors to support the kids.
@@iUnderstand, what assessments did he do other than interview the student? He does not list one assessment that he did or what the results were. Pathetic. And while he did not have the authority to make sure the student went home the administrators could have strongly suggested it.
After the fact wisdom.
Parents are woefully failing in the area of emotional and social support during the tumultuous adolescent years.
They are not there to baby sit. But after finding the drawing they most certainly should have searched his backpack that day.
Is that legal?
@007nadineL when I was in high-school if they heard about drugs or weapons from anyone they'd have the school police officer pull you out of class and search your bag. You're on school property so it's legal.
That being said, school counselors can only do so much especially depending how he gauged this situation, I really feel for this counselor as well as every victim and the families. The guilt he has to live with must be overwhelming
Exactly!!!!!!!!
@@krosina95the parents withheld knowledge of the gun!
Personal gripe: Lawyers who don't ask questions and finish them in complete sentences.
Your client is on trial. You do not end sentences with "or ..."
The child needed to be referred to a psychiatrist immediately. Hearing voices is psychosis. The parents may possibly have been in denial. I don't know. It's complex. And heartbreaking.
The Defense lawyer acts like a spoiled toddler always whining. She’s overwhelmed and it’s everyone else’s fault.
These parents cared more about their horses than their son. They needed to get rid of those horses and use that $1,000 per month for therapy for their son.
Can the judge sustain or overrule objections? She is trying to help the Defense so bad it’s an obvious unfairness to the Prosecution.
Defense lawyer acts like a toddler
I've been thinking the exact same thing, the judge literally helps out the defence and says why don't you ask the question this way, when she is leading the witness not a simple "objection" "sustained"
Oh man, she was hard to listen to. When the counselor said I can't answer that because it would be pure speculation. The attorney responded " I appreciate your response" and moved on🤦♀️
I'm hoping it's because the judge knows the defense is tanking the case and she wants to cover every base to avoid an appeal. Shannon is so bad it almost seems intentional, but at the same time I dont see how that would benefit her
I have never seen a judge ask questions to every witness.
Did anyone notice the counselor jump when he heard that thump I pray they all receive some help after this
I am over her being disrespectful to this witness, the counselor. Judge, DO YOUR JOB! This is unprofessional, rude, and downright borderline hostile from the defense attorney. Get your courtroom in order or recuse yourself. Your courtroom is an absolute joke & nightmare.
I watched 10 minutes of the defense and had to stop. She is so unprofessional, annoying, hostile, and indeed disrespectful! She doesn’t even know how to object correctly! Does she really have a JD?
@@myboyzr2she supposedly does. I’d like to see proof 😉 I guess she was the defense attorney for Larry Nassar, which is shocking. Yeah my bp goes up when she starts talking
She stands up each time state asks if there's no objection. Up & down.
Yes. The judge is the biggest problem in this case right now. These poor families. First their kids are murdered, and now this.
I just commented this same thing! Are they seriously badgering him? He has a master's degree in school counseling and tried everything he could by calling his parents in and stressing the severity of their sons mental health, THEY decided not to take it seriously so why are THEY not on the stand? So infuriating. How dare they cast blame on the ones trying to help and ultimately having his hands tied.
My step-son needed and requested help (not risk to others, himself), as a teen and young adult. He received it in spades by both sets of parents. How does a parent just ignore this? Blatant negligence and chosen disregard!
Leave it to a defense attorney to ask the same question fifty different ways. And always start a question with, “So you don’t know…”.
K-Reckt‼️…?
I know that people are critical of the judge. I’m thinking that she is going to bend over backwards to make certain that there are no grounds that something was unfair to “mom”. Nobody wants to have the bereaved families have to go through this again. It is pretty infuriating. The defense lawyer is giving me a pain where I can’t reach it!
I know right. The judge let's the defense run the court room she might as well not be there if she's going to allow the defense to keep walking all over her like that.
@@beverlyhunter4182i think that's the opposite of what this person said. the judge is giving leeway to the defense so that the defense can't cry foul and ask for a retrial on the grounds that they received unfair treatment.
She wants to retire
The COUNSELOR WAS HORRIBLE..
@Rtgvshdy did you see him jump with that loud noise while on the stand. He said he wanted the parents to take him home but he didn't want him alone either the school thought it was a self harm issue not a shooting spree issue and here in michigan without probable cause they couldn't search his back pack because he wasn't a problem child
In the 1990s, the CDC was beginning a study into gun violence. The premise was to examine why gun violence appears to behave like a viral outbreak. The NRA successfully lobbied not only to block the research study, but to cut the funding to the CDC.
Hindsight is always 20/20. The NRA is solely responsible for handicapping schools across the country in their ability to identify shooters BEFORE they kill. There IS no protocol. Because schools don’t know exactly what to look for.
Oxford clearly thought Ethan was a danger. But they thought he was a danger TO HIMSELF.
That’s on the NRA. When you hamstring efforts to understand and combat the UNIQUE tragedy of school shootings that define the U.S., you can’t hold SCHOOLS liable.
Parents? Absolutely. These parents OFFICIALLY broke the law by buying a handgun for their minor child. That is a literal, codified crime.
The parents also failed to secure that handgun. ALSO a crime.
They did BOTH of those things, KNOWING they had a kid prone to violent outbursts at home.
The parents’ negligent behavior DIRECTLY led to the murders of 4 kids. The Involuntary manslaughter charges are warranted and if the jury convicts, they are also justified.
The school counselor who is expected to oversee 400 students? No. The school who is expected to oversee 1800? No.
You canNOT hold the school and its staff responsible when there is NO protocol for identifying school shooters. The fact that there is no protocol is the fault of the NRA.
Get mad at the NRA.
I am glad the NRA is helping to defend the 2nd
Amendment. ❤
I believe that if schools had armed guards shooters would think twice.
REPORT: Oxford school district didn’t follow its threat assessment policy in ‘avoidable’ tragedy, WNEM Digital, published 10/31/23
Facts.
No one believes you loser.
@@annieb5647you mean like Uvalde, where 300+ armed professionals waited outside while kids were gunned down? Or like Parkland, where an armed school officer waited outside the building while the shooting was going on?
Omg so many adults failed this child and they all should be accountable for this.
Mainly his lousy parents.
The defence is trying to hold the school councillor and teachers accountable. They are not responsible. They didn’t fail. Their job is to educate children but their time and resources are diverted to matters that they should not have to deal with. Parents are failing their children in these contemporary times. Parents are not devoting their time, attention and regard to their offspring like they should. There seems to be little if any discipline these days and children are not taught consequences for their actions. They are encouraged to challenge authority and they have no respect for their elders. That said, ultimately what it comes down to is that the Crumbley’s neglect their child, disregarded his calls for help and purchased a firearm for a damaged adolescent. They then ran away and tried to hide from the world when their son committed murder and mayhem.
@@theresadavis5518 Sometimes it takes a village! Maybe a class that should be included in the school curriculum is how to treat each other with care and respect and how to relate to different individuals! It's not just the times we live in you can go back all the way to the bible times when horrible acts of violence occurred! I do agree that a gun should have never been purchased! That was outrageous!
@@susankustich1720Do you have any idea just how crowded the curriculum is already?
@@susankustich1720 You are right. The atrocities we read about in the bible are dreadful. The human condition has been corrupted for thousands of years. We like to think of ourselves as civilised these days,however. A special class in basic civility and understanding of other people would be a great thing.
Defense lawyer yikes! There’s no defending this mom. She choose to go back to work instead of taking her son to a hospital for help. All she had to do was take him to the emergency department and have a psychiatrist evaluate him. She clearly didn’t want to deal with him and his issues.
I don't understand the defense attorney's line of questioning on same day therapy. It's not relevant whether or not a same day appointment is easy to obtain because the whole principle is that the SOONER you try, the SOONER you will obtain an appointment. The parents were not showing the initiative of getting their son help ASAP.
It's about the counselor's professional responsibilities when it comes to appropriate referrals to the needs they believe the student has that are viable with insurance, level of care (intensity of intervention), etc. and in this case, she is addressing appropriate referrals that are viable for his perceived urgency of care Ethan needed. They are responsible for the referrals meeting those criteria of availability.
This defense attorney is the college tryhard girl with 15 different color highlighters to mark up every piece of study material she has in rainbow color codes, who stays up until 4am cramming for every exam, but then immediately forgetting the material a week later.
How do YOU know?
@@Peace-tk3gr
She’s a dreadful excuse for a defense attorney and additionally she’s frustrating and annoying to even listen to. 🤷♀️🙅🏼♀️🤯😵💫She must be court appointed…
No way she’s way too disorganized to be the highlighter girl 😂😂 always missing statements and asking to repeat when everyone else is already on board
Wonder if she attended same law school as Alina Habba
@@reneebauman2994
lol… she wasn’t court appointed‼️🤪 Self pay🤣, you know JC’s furious‼️🧌🇺🇸⚖️
Mom’s plan was to let him brush a horse. Ffs
Yep…Moe was going to be the kids therapist.
To be fair, even that "horse therapy idea" came from someone else.
That's Therapy.!!! What's your point?
Oh wow, the judge commented...."well, no one os excited to come to school!?" Wth. THAT is unprofessional, an innuendo and degrades the testimony of the witness.
The counselor should stand up and give that attorney a detention as he walks out. Enough is enough.
He was “not responsible for discipline, he’s student support” he said he supports students by offering a bridge in the hallway. 🙄
So from now on the protocol will be to ask if student has access to guns.😢😢😢
All adults failed this kid that day. Sick but predictable that they threw kid in jail & wiped hands clean
Right😢
Omg her point about him not getting a therapy appointment the day of the shooting is INFURIATING - they didn’t seek therapy for Ethan, they were encouraged to take him home to seek therapy immediately, THEY DIDN’T EVEN CALL. They went back to work and ignored his texts after that.
AAARGH and her persistently trying to point out he wasn’t disciplined for any of the red flags is EXACTLY the problem. I really think the parents rushed there thinking he was in trouble for drawing in class and this would be a disciplinary meeting. That’s why they rushed down then weren’t interested and left. That’s why she sent the picture around saying “this is what I’m dealing with” to her boss. He was a problem to her not a concern.
It's absolutely not true that the the school cannot keep a student out of class as he said. If there is a mental health concern the student can be Baker acted by the school or the SRO can insist the student be taken home until the home can be visited so a threat assessment can be made
Interesting thank you
Question: In this violent society that is full of cartoons, comics, TV shows, movies, etc. that depict continual violence, killing, weapons, explosions, etc.: How many students doodle weapons, violence, etc.?
How many beg their parents for a gun and get it? How many write things like "the voices won't stop. Help me"? How many tell their parents they hear voices and get told to suck it up?
I don't have children but I know so many who all have video games with violence with shooter'. I would never buy my child violent video'. They spend hour' per day playing these video' they are obsessed with them.
I used to stuff my feelings. One day I drew a picture of a gun,, then made it into a rifle, and then drew a cannon that shot out a big ball that had a little person in it who was sawing his way out, but I put a strip in front of the blade that prevented him from sawing his way out. The ball made a big explosion and I felt so much pressure relieved......sigh....if only drawing pictures had been enough to release HIS stress....
no adult was willing to say "no" to him until the police got involved.
Uh, no. His parents said no to him constantly. He begged his mom to come home because he heard voices and saw demons and needed help. She said no and went horseback riding instead.
He begged them several times to take him to a psychiatrist because of being tormented by voices and demons and they said no every single time. They paid about $2000 a month for their horses but didn't get health insurance for their son, which is a disgusting "no".
And finally they were shown a drawing their son made. A drawing of a shooting with the words "the voices don't stop. Help me." How much clearer can he be? They were asked to get him professional help immediately and said "no" for a final time.
I think all the adults in the room should have used their brains like adults, not like robots in a rigid policy filled school system. The parents should have done (much) better, and the school should have done better to do a proper search for a weapon that they thought could potentially be on campus.
This. Where was his concern for the other students?
The defense attorney is a headache. She is rude , disrespectful and inappropriate. The judge seems to have a liking to her therefore won’t reprimand her. Such a disgrace to the families.
Yes, the judge seems to know the defense attorney and clearly sympathizes.
Stop lying
You are not getting the point. Judge is doing fine. Defense is hanging herself out to dry.
I feel so sorry for this man.
She said very openly she could be at work or not be at work whenever she wanted to... guilty.
The parents were like, "we have to deal with the weirdo at home. You deal with him at a school. We send him to school to catch a break."😢
Four students are dead because no one checked his backpack.
No, because parents did not secure firearm from unstable minor.
Only the parents or the designated school administrator has the authority to do a search apparently…
I don’t at all blame the counselor, but I don’t understand why it’s not standard procedure in all schools to check a backpack/belongings when a student is suspected of potential self harm.
@@amandah.3763the principal would have to do that.
In my opinion....I believe Ethan did the drawling on purpose and the school and parents failed him. Idk why the school isnt being charged. He was crying for HELP
I agree
Yes
Is it me or do the defense’s questions seem leading and more like arguments? She can’t just ask, “Did you call Mrs. Crumbley?” It’s always, “You didn’t call Mrs. Crumbley, is that correct?”, or “such and such a statement, this is what I think…is that correct?” That and her whiny voice. It’s hard to take.
My thoughts,exactly!!!
Is the Defense Attorney asking questions ,or making statements???
both. i really don't like the way the counselor is dodging questions, like dude just admit you read the situation wrong. doesn't make him guilty but denying and not recalling things all the sudden is so annoying
@@CraiiZeD I don’t see him dodging questions, and he read the situation as a serious one, kept the kid in his office until a parent showed up, scheduled a meeting with him for the next morning and told him he was available if he needed him, but didn’t have authority to do anything beyond that.
yes
True. When questioning the gun seller, she received answers that on paper look like the opposite of what the seller meant. So weird how long and complicated she makes the questions
She is a joke
The issue I see here is that the mother was called in with concerns, and her son was left at school. The school is not responsible for the mental wellness of their students. That is a PARENTS responsibility. This man was observing a behavior, and he called the parents. This attorney is trying to fault the counselors. She's despicable.
The school is responsible for the physical safety of the students on their campus. Seeing a child draw what he drew, the counselor's first concern should have been for the students on campus. He should have gotten school officers involved and had them check the students book bag and campus before deciding the student was merely suicidal.
The way he closed his eyes when asked about the gun drawing and then jumped when Jennifer’s lawyer stood up has me in tears for him. I hope he remains in therapy and can find peace after all this trauma.
After each of her statements I would ask her if she’s asking a question. This would bring it to this sleeping judge’s attention that this defense attorney is making statements not asking questions!
The Counselor is getting an attitude, being defensive but he must know the school literally dropped the ball The parents failed the kid-miserably so-as well as the school administration-worst of all they failed all the victims. So, lose the attitude dude.
The parents only had one kid to deal with. Wonder how many students this counselor has?
Omg this defense lawyer is the absolute worse. She may as well beg all the witnesses to help her do her job lol
Could someone explain something for me…when airhead attorney would object and the DA responded with “same as before, your Honor. And then the Judge herself would directly question the witness.
I have never seen that before. I hope someone can explain it for me. Thanks in advance.
I'm a female and it feels like woman power to me🤷 Never seen this before but would like to know myself.
defense attorney was making the same objection because you need to make a record of all objections.
prosecutor is allowed to rebut an objection, and as the objection remained the same; so did his response.
the judge chose to help by reestablishing the grounds so as to head the defense attorney off at the pass.
i think other judges may have simply overruled or sustained and advised counsel to reword the question, but this judge was giving the defense a lot of leeway and here's why: with high profile cases like this especially, we do not want an appeal or retrial in the grounds that the defendant received unfair treatment. we want it done right and thorough the first time.
unfortunately that's going to mean some repetitive stuff like relitigating every question lol, but it is for a purpose.
I’ve never seen anything like it either and clocked it immediately, idk how that’s gunna go on appeals
Someone mentioned that the judge and defense attorney had a few go round in past cases and that the judge is now intimidated by her (Shannon)
Are they being condescending to the school counselor?
Like it is their fault in any way? Unbelievable.
Oh my gosh really 😮
how is it the parents fault then? this dude is the professional
@@juliaroy1382the parent is responsible. They bought lethal weapon and allowed a person who is not mentally stable have access to it. On top of that they ignored his cries for help. The parent saw the drawing too and they decided to let him stay. See the interview with the mom, she said she was not concerns about the drawing. If I were a parent and I saw this drawing knowing very well my child does have gun access I would be concerned and pull the child out of school
I lost a brother thru suicide,. Our whole family were unaware of his suicidal state, but shocked at his actions. He didn't take anyone out. We are still asking ourselves questions about our family.
I’m very sorry for the loss of your brother.
So why is okay for the defense attorney to ask leading questions but she complains & objects when the prosecution does?!? Cripes, the defense attorney gives me a headache. 🙄🤦🏼♀️🤬
Because she’s allowed to ask leading questions on cross, you can’t ask leading questions when it’s your own witness. She’s doing her job, just the same as the prosecution will object to leading questions when it’s one of the defense witnesses
@thegreyhoundgirls Read up on trial procedures before commenting.
I think she's setting Jennifer up for a mistrial, the attorney is SO bad she'll get a new trial for lack of counsel.
@@dwh751 She definitely is, because her client is completely indefensible. But see @mama comment above to see why the defense attorney is allowed to ask questions the way she is.
@@HereForTheComments990I’m NOT an attorney. Could you be a any ruder?
Caring expert. Thank you Sir for caring about an ill boy
There should have been only one option that day; one that the counselor did not testify to.. Student should have been referred to and evaluated by a crisis center and their professionals for immediate evaluation and appropriate next steps. How can a high school not have a protocol in place for crisis situations ? Or, is there a protocol in place and counselors did not know/follow? They have fire drills, etc but no protocol for a student who needs immediate mental health evaluation?
Especially when males, in particular, start showing signs/symptoms of mental health issues, such as schizophrenia, in their mid-late teens, never mind the host of other mental health issues students, in general, deal with today.
Law enforcement can EOD, emergency order of detention, but Ethan likely wouldn’t not have met the criteria since he said he was fine and related the drawing to a video game he was supposedly designing.
Access to weapons is a standard question for someone who has suicidal ideation. He didn’t ask the right questions.
Unless they are restrained Hannibal Lecter style in a rubber room a person that wants to self harm can make ANYTHING a weapon. Now, not disclosing that this person has access to a Roscoe seems far and away worse imo
The parent seemed to feel li!e this meeting a the school, was an INCONVENIENCE! 🤷🏼♀️..pretty much says it all doesn't it!....not every human, should be a parent!..🙄🤷🏼♀️
He had a drawing of a gun and no questions as to his access to the gun or if he planned to use it to harm anyone. This courtroom conduct feels more like a mock trial set up by law school students. Not once has the judge said "sustained" or "overruled" to the objections, she just rephrases it for the prosecutor, interesting. The parents seemed quite narcissistic and only concerned with their hobbies and jobs.
And as of today her affair with her high school friend.
Yeah. That's the difference between TV law shows and reality. Watch more real cases.
Blaming educators for a school shooting they had to live through is despicable. How much counseling is one able to do if they have to larp all day as the ATF?
In this day & age of gun lovers, you all realize that tougher regulations that would have assisted in expulsion... These parents would have been the first to protest tougher regulations.
I feel sorry for the counselor I do. I don’t think anyone saw this coming including the parents.
Parents don't seem to put their children's best interest first anymore. They have them and expect other people to raise them and teach them right and wrong.
@@MB-gl6tta hour prior.
@@jlorde8838 I would contend the mother had awareness of very concerning things long before the school did...she should have gone to the school in the spring to inquire about help for her child that was reporting hallucinations and asking his parents to take him to the Dr... schools are a resource for children and families.
@@jmw3581 Well that’s forced on us too. The government takes so much power away. Welp here they got it and now it’s the mom.
It's crazy after viewing Ethan's diagram that there was no reason to keep him from going back to class! Ethan's backpack should have been searched and authorities called! Do these people live under a rock and not aware of all the past school shootings! Geez!
Well, if everyone did what post hoc experience shows, we would live in a perfect world. Shoulda woulda coulda ....TV reality
You’re not wrong! I have my first and only baby, she’s 9 months old, and I can’t even imagine sending her to school someday. Seems like sending them into a war zone. And they’re such precious sweet loving innocent kids. Why aren’t we keeping them safe????
Send them to a private school. Definitely a difference. The big school districts are overwhelmed, Even in a "good" district.@@GrowingwithAnastasia
Eyeroll
The judge is more like a mediator than judge
The school had a counselor, but he doesn’t seem to have any authority. He didn’t seem to be allowed to talk to Ethan in any depth. Even though there had been students that had committed suicide. Ethan’s parents weren’t talking to him, and it’s not ok for the counselor. Who is actually there for the students? Now they have a school shooting and a number of suicides. Certainly, with all the school shootings hasn’t someone noticed a pattern of behavior? There’s a picture of a gun and no one even asks Ethan if he is familiar with guns, has a gun or wants a gun. Why was the school so reluctant to engage with Ethan? The counselor seems to have had his hands tied, he wasn’t allowed to do what he felt was best for Ethan. Just with the mother’s text, saying Ethan don’t do it. She knew.
Ethan was a bomb. The parents lit the fuse. The counselor and Dean of students threw it into the school.
There's a limit to what the school can do. They can't make the parents take the kid home. You either call the police or you keep him in school.
@@xdrachelHe should have called the police.
As a licensed counselor did you ever ask if Ethan had access to a gun? Did you ever ask if there were guns in the home? Did you ever ask the parents if he had ever expressed similar feelings before Nov 30? As a licensed counselor did you ask Ethan if he was suicidal? If he was homicidal? If he had a plan of how he would commit suicide? The are basic questions that ANY licensed counselor would ask! Yes the parents are guilty, but there is NO question that this counselor is also guilty of negligence!
A school counselor and a counselor are not the same thing. They may receive similar training but as someone who has dealt with both, they are absolutely not the same. The majority of his job is scheduling classes that's not counseling that's administration. Unfortunately these counselors rarely actually help kids with mental health issues.
I believe it was in this video that he talked about knowing that Ethan shot guns with his parent(s), even recently.
@@Tiffany-RoseThat is simply not true. Yes, they help with scheduling classes, but there's a plethora of other responsibilities their job entails.
@@cherylbritten6950 least of all is mental health. That's the point.
He never said he is a licensed mental health counselor, he said he has a masters in counseling (likely school counseling). Totally different
See major hindsight bias in these comments. Nobody here had rough teen years!!?... hormones, low confidence, feel inadequate, lonely, depression - did your parents rush you to a psych eval? Come on. Wake up. Neither counselor nor parents expected this tragedy. If we could predict murder so clearly, then there would be no murder.
Good point. It's hard to predict suicide and even harder to predict homicide.
They bought him a gun and did not lock it up
It was locked up, from what i heard during the trial, bullets and key to lock in separate places, he just found them, so not hidden good enough. @@patriciamurfitt4590
When school calls parents and leave messages....parents are suppose to call back
They didn't call until the evening before. Thats what was said in trial. Ghen the next morning they were asked to come to the school because of the drawing. Then asked to get counseling for him, but dent back to class and an hour later started shooting.
If I have to listen one more time to Airhead Attorney say “Correct?.” I.Am.Going.To.Scream. Long and loud!!!
You are going to scream out loud if you hear the defense attorney say correct again, correct? 🤣🤣🤣
@@cathygee3007 Correct!
I wouldn't call her an airhead, she has a law degree. How much education do you have?
@@mtz6198 I have my Masters and taught for over 30 yrs until I retired.
My “airhead” was in reference to her flight of ideas; her over the top behaviors, and her lack of preparation
@@songbirds3712 I agree she's wildly under prepare to say the least, but to be fair, we've all had those type of moments. I'm sure in your 30yrs you had your fair share of regretful "airhead" moments. We're a flawed specie. And even with our commonalities and shared experiences, we still offer judgement far more than grace. Humans. We suck.
These parents were hoping their son would off himself and their responsibilities would be over. I have seen this before by parents and this is the most obvious case of that I have ever seen. They were already happy that their older son Eli had left the home.
How could he not have memories of the meeting?
PTSD has a major effect on memory processing, storage and retrievability of memories related to the event
Could the parents get Ethan in to see a mental health professional THAT DAY? I’ve never been able to do that WITH insurance.
Hell no. My brother is severely mentally ill, and it's never a same day appointment. It's ALWAYS like a week out before they can be seen.
And for a new patient, it usually is weeks on months out
Yes, very doubtful they could have.
Do you ever feel so bad that you think of hurting yourself or others? Was this critical question asked as part of the interview with Ethan?
Maybe the counselor should have called 911. They are mandated reporters.
Mandated reporters report child abuse and (at least in pa) not to 911 but to a child line and its referred to child.protrctive services.
There was nothing to report?
Why would he call 911? As a mandated reporter, he would call CPS which is exactly what his plan was after meeting with the 'parents'.
Maybe, should, would, could and ought.... The perfect moral world versus the real world.
Reporting is not reporting to the police. It means calling child protective services. The counselor said he was going to do that if the parents didn't send him to therapy.
This defense attorney keeps asking questions she should know the answer to. She's constantly asking him questions that doesn't fall under his responsibility. She also kept referring him as the shooter which is bad. She still hasn't proved the parents actually cared about their kid. He wanted him to get help ASAP.
14:15 Hugs to this counselor
When did it become the school’s responsibility to monitor the kid’s mental state? Shouldn’t the parents be more in-tuned to what is going on with their own kid than the school? If they are close to their kids they should be able to tell if the kid is having issues and it seems that this kid was sending up fireworks about his mental state for a long time and the parents were ignoring them.
Straight up this dude did not do his job
This woman is guilty of not being a high quality parent - as are millions of parents across the world - and up until now the idea of this being crime was laughable - but in 2024 - we have thrown all common sense aside - so this is probably now is a crime.
This just don’t know how to respond to objections like say overruled or sustained what?????
She may not be liked as a attorney but boy did she get out all the lies of these school staff , and professionals , they should all be charged as well
Escalation of behavior of the shooter is quite clear. Unfortunately this counselor did not pick it up at all. Demonstrates the need for schools to have MH therapists vs. School counselors who are torn between required school evaluations for learning disabilities, career counseling, etc. and have less time and experience in actual MH counseling. It’s pretty clear he was a risk for self-harm, and a highly probable risk for the safety of others. Massive failure by many people, but mostly the parents. 😢
Wow, the prosecutor put a hard stamp on this testimony in the last 4 minutes - how derelict the mom was in not having a candid conversation with the student counselor about the problems her son was having. That was so telling.
People are dissing the defense attorney, but she's scoring a lot of points. She's showing that people trained to spot dangerous situations were unable to determine whether the student posed an imminent threat.
But he did identify there was a threat. Unfortunately the threat he thought was the kid harming himself. He raised an alarm and it was ignored. As a school counselor you only have so many options. This is why we need nationwide protocols on how to handle this stuff and resources to get these kids the help they need even if their parents don't give a f.
A person at risk of harming themself is also at risk of harming others. Psych 101.
But not imminent threat of harming others or himself was determined by the professionals who reviewed the situation. That's the line that the defense is drawing. @@darrylg3861
He raised the alarm with the principle and the parents what else could he have done the parents dismissed him . The parents also weren't forth comming with information they knew either. The parents knew he was in danger just not the danger everyone thought
And when it comes to the defense team it seams all she's doing is repeating what the prosecution is saying. She also seems so unprepared
We should remember that the counselor is motivated to describe his concerns about Ethan in a way that doesn't open himself up to criminal liability. That may be why he's saying he was only concerned about self-harm and was not worried that Ethan would be a danger to other students.
Correct????
She needs to stop saying “Correct”! The jury will determine if the testimony is correct.
If someone is depressed and suicidal do they usually request to be around others or to be alone. Bad call