Audio Comparisons: Track 1 - 100% In The Box - bxSSL4000E Group Summing - SSL Native Bus Compressor 2 Track 2 - Neve 5057 ORBIT Summing Mixer - No Texture - Main Outs - SSL G Comp Track 3 - Neve 5057 ORBIT Summing Mixer - Silk Red 12 O' Clock - Main Outs - SSL G Comp
Great job with the video. As for now, on my MacBook Pro speakers it is hard to discern which mix I preferred. Can't really hear a difference here but I will listed in the studio Les! Thank you for the effort!
@rickalvarez7591 Thank you! Yeah, I think with this test, the difference would be too subtle to make a significant difference on any laptop speakers. You know, the other thing with this test is, I put the summing on at the end of the mix. I didn't mix into the summing mixer from the start of the mix. I don't have the 5057 Orbit anymore. I sold it because I thought the results were too subtle, but I always wish I had given it more of a chance. I'd like to try mixing into it from the start of a mix. People use it both ways, I guess I was just expecting more from it by applying it at the end of the mix. But now that I have more experience, I'm interested in giving analog summing another try. Either with the 5057 again, or the Dangerous Music 2-BUS-XT. However, another thing I learned from my limited experience with analog summing is how costly it is to get into! I was thinking I could just buy a $2,000 box and get console sound from my DAW. However, you also need sixteen additional dedicated analog inputs and outputs that you won't be using for anything else - ever! For me, that meant spending another $1,500-$6,000 on a new audio interface or converters, plus another $720 in cabling! So, if and when I decide to give it another try, I'm looking at a minimum of $3,600 if I were to buy everything used! Phew! That's a tough pill to swallow for analog summing. It also adds another level of complexity to your workflow that you have to be willing to deal with. I really prefer to keep things as simple as possible to ensure I don't get bogged down in technical issues. With my limited amount of free time, I rather use that extra bandwidth on creativity and experimentation in my productions and mixes but, there's a part of me that thinks I could get it all setup and integrated into my workflow in a transparent way that will become essentially invisible so, I'm willing to give it another try.
You get the most out of the summing units when you mix into them. You can hear the differences in this example but it is subtle. Better separation, wider, and the instruments seem to pop out of the speakers more with the summing box.
@@Gang-25j I sold it because it wasn't meeting my expectations. I thought it would substantially improve my sound, but the differences were subtle. However, I always wish I had given it more time. The way to get the best results from summing mixers is to mix into them. I know that now. But at the time, I was just adding at the end of the mixing process and hoping for an improvement. I discovered, at least for me, that's not the way to do it. It also adds complexity to my workflow. For the most part, I'm always recording, mixing and mastering my own stuff so I'll start to make some mixing moves and automation all along the way - even while I'm tracking. You can't track through the summing mixer without a bit of extra latency so I would take it off when I'm tracking. So by the end of recording and going into the mixing stage, I'd already have a good balance and mix going. And in order to start mixing into the Orbit, I'd really have to start the mix from scratch to do it properly and I never wanted to do that because it was already sounding good, so why undo everything just to start mixing into the summing mixer? If I could just completely separate the tracking/recording stage and mixing stage, it would work for me. But when I have an idea, I like to get it down as quickly as possible so it's been hard for me to completely separate the two stages of the process. Plus, like many of us I think, I like to hear things sounding closer to a finished product all along the way. If I was simply mixing other people's stuff, it would be easy for me to properly integrate summing and I think I would really like it. And yes, the Dangerous 2-BUS-XT is clean, definitely cleaner than the Orbit with transformers and silk circuitry, but I like what the coherence button does on Dangerous 2-BUS-XT. Today, I can get the analog console sound I was after from plugins so I'm not relying on outboard hardware for that anymore. Today, I think I would be more interested in summing for increased headroom, loudness, and added dimension. But honestly, I've been able to achieve all that completely in the box today and I'm happy with the sound I'm getting so I don't think I'll be integrating analog summing back into the mix anytime soon. If I do, it would just be for further experimentation and exploration.
Hey man, thanks for the video - question, did you try to pushing its input slightly into clipping? I heard form Neve directly that there is where you notice the real difference without destroying the mix. I am not sure this is true🤙🏼
@quantika72 Thanks for watching and for your comment. Yes, the best way to use the Orbit Summing Mixer is to push its input and to mix into it from the beginning. When I had it, I was tacking it on at the end and experimenting with driving its input stage. Using it that way, the results were too subtle for me to want to keep it. However, I always wished I hung onto it a little longer and gave it more of a try mixing into it from the start of a mix. It also just didn't really fit in my workflow since I write, record, mix and master all my own music. I'm always writing and recording at the same time, and a lot of mixing moves I do at this stage too so, I never wanted to track into the summing mixer, and by the end of the recording stage, the mix is usually about 90% done! So, I would always end up just adding it on at the end to see if it improved it and like I said, the results were too subtle for my taste doing it that way - but it seemed that's where it worked best in my workflow. The other thing is, 16 channels of summing is very expensive to get into. For $1,500 on Black Friday, getting Neve console summing sounds like the best deal in pro audio! But then you realize you need a high quality audio interface with 16 analog ins and outs dedicated just to summing alone (and none of those are cheap - $1,500 used at least - plus, you need another interface to monitor on and to hook up any other additional analog equipment you have), two $300 snakes and four $70 XLR cables. 🤯 Plus, it does complicate routing and setup in your mix template. It's not super easy at first. Once you get it all set up, and you have a good understanding of it all, I guess it's not a big deal really. But, it definitely complicates things when you're doing everything yourself, and I'm always looking for ways to simplify things while still getting the sound I want. I'm at that point now, and without analog summing. However, with that said, I'd still like to give it another try! 🙂 I would go for the Orbit again or the Dangerous Music 2-BUS-XT.
I’ll be completely honest… I listened to all the examples with my eyes closed, and I didn’t HEAR much of a difference (I did hear differences but they where very subtle), but the third one made me FEEL the music a lot more than the other 2. So my answer would be YES, if we can make the people connect more with our music then I’d say those 5ks are worth 🙏🏻🙌🏻
Thank you for watching and for helping me pick my final mix! Timecodes 0:00 - Intro 0:27 - ITB Mix Details 1:08 - Analog Mix Details 2:45 - Mix Comparison
I know this is late, but I enjoyed the overall imaging of mix 2 very much. The only other thing I would say is that the vocals are really pushed forward on the third mix with the RND silk saturation mode.
the middle part of your video is what a trailer for an analog mixing movie would sound like.. "arrree you rreaddyyy....this 2022.... with a threshold of -20db....and a ratio of 10:1....like you've never seen before...."
All 3 are usable. Wasn’t any night and day differences, especially between 1 and 2. The third to my ear had more of a bump in the lows/highs and sounded subtly more pleasing to me. Is it worth the money for the difference? It depends. Especially if the intended purpose were to acquire a Mixbus/summing processor that could be useful in multiple instances. For the more common consumer though I find it to be unnecessary especially if u have the skill to achieve a great mix ITB. But with all intent, the goal for most even starting out is expansion and if u have the means, go for it.
Yeah you can def tell the difference, the first mix is thin and not very warm but still sounds good. The 2nd 1 had much more width and depth to it and sounded a little warmer with some better presence. Thats more what i aim for with my mixes, sounded very nuetral and natural and clear. The 3rd one was great too, even more warmth, depth and width. Made the track sound alot fuller and thicker. Definitely should be a eye opener to all those itb only people lol. Nothing wrong with in the box but if you think people are dumb for spending that much on analog gear is stupid, maybe it is lol but this is what were chasing. But ive noticed those people usually say “i can barely even hear any difference at all they all sound the same at the end” 🙄
BTW THE TRACK SOUNDS GREAT. I really think the unit has to be in the mix to adjust for the device. For mastering version 2 would be the pro choice. Cheers love the post.
Hi Andy! Thanks so much for watching and for sharing your thoughts. Agreed! That's the one I ended up sending off to master. Do you use analog summing or are you considering adding it to your setup?
@@AndyKingCo Awesome! Yeah, it can be a little confusing when you've never done it before but it's quite simple actually. First, you just need an audio interface with 16 analog ins and outs. I use it with the Apogee Symphony I/O. Then, you just need two DB25 to DB25 cables and run them out from the audio interface and into the Orbit. Then you just need two XLR to TRS cables and run the summed stereo mix out of the Orbit and back into your audio interface on two channels. Print it. Done. In Ableton and many other DAWs, you just put a simple utility plugin on each group track and tell it which channels to send out to. Feel free to always reach out to me here or at lesvegasmusic@gmail.com with any questions you might have. I'd love to help!
Oh, I appreciate that Andy. Thanks so much! I have a great video comparing the SSL G Bus Compressor to the new SSL THE BUS+ coming out tomorrow that you might be interested in. See you soon!
Haha. Well, to be fair, they do have a bigger impact when you mix into them instead of just slapping them on at the end like I did here. I've learned the difference is pretty minor when you do it that way. I like this one and the Dangerous Music 2-BUS-XT. Especially the coherence button. I'm not using summing anymore though. It's a lot to get into. You need an additional 8-16 channels (so that's another one to two new interfaces) and some costly snakes so... not sure it's worth it. Not to mention all the extra routing to think about and deal with inside the DAW. I like to keep things simple today and I find I can get the sound in after 100% in the DAW now - just using hardware for tracking.
@@LesVegasMusic Yes I get that. But in that case there comes the question to my mind, that when all that I am doing is just pushing louder signal into the stereo-output-stage-transformers, why not get a simple stereo unit an safe on the extra d/a and cables. I mean it's the same as pushing signal into 2 542s without the tape circuit on and using just the silk section. you get that for 1800EUR and have the ability to use the tape-emulation as well. Same with the Dangerous gear. They have some nice Transformers and other Features but in the end those Circuits are all just on the stereo bus and not on the individual Channels of the summing-mixer...Cheers! Bernd
Yep. That's right. I still always wished I gave summing a bit more time to experiment with but, I'll try again some other time. Right now I'm getting the results I'm after without it. Maybe now that my ears are dialed into the finer details this type of gear delivers it would be different. I'm not sure though, and honestly, I haven't found a piece of RND gear that I connect with yet. I had the Orbit, two 542's, the MBP and MBT and each time I'm just like, this isn't improving my mix and it's just adding stuff I don't want.
@@LesVegasMusic Mhm. RND....It really only clicks for me with their silk circuit. I love that sound on rock-drums. But it's not modern and it's often not the sound that I have in my head for a track. So yes, I tend to use is more on the blue silk side for bass-drums, and red for snares especially when a band asks me more for that 90`s rock-drum-sound. BTW would be happy to see you test the Dangerous Gear!
@thePunkRockMix Oh yeah. Well, I do like Silk Red, but I usually put enough high end or air in my mix that it's just too much by the time it hits the mix bus. Yes. I would love to test the Dangerous stuff. I have the Convert AD+ here but I'm not sure for how much longer. I'm getting the Apogee I/O Special Edition and I think it may replace it.
Enjoyed mix 3 the most. Can definitely hear the transformers at work. Mix 1 does sound nice but more flat. I also think the differences are even more obvious on slower RnB / ballad styles of music. RND gear pretty much shines on any audio that touches it!
Hey! Thanks so much for watching and for your comment. I liked mix 3 myself with the Silk Red at 50%. It loses a little bottom end though doesn't it? Otherwise, I love what it does to the midrange and top end.
@@LesVegasMusic Hey I have a Orbit myself. Love it. I think the red silk being applied may give the perception of reduced lows, but I don’t feel it’s actually the case. What I tend to do, is run the Mix through silk Blue at let’s say 30-50% and then re-pass it through silk Red at around 20-30% and it does wonders. I also use the Symphony IO, but the MK1. Happy mixing!
By the way, I had a question for you. On your Orbit, can you see the transformers from top grill holes, and if so does your transformers have yellow / cream covering or is it just copper color windings? Thanks
@@theredfaceofficial Oooo. Love that idea! I'll give it a try. And yes, I've got the MK1 myself. I would upgrade to the MKII chassis but my 16 I/O card is the the only card that doesn't work in the MKII chassis! My MK1 is still working well though and the converters are crystal. I can hear everything on those suckers so I won't be changing anytime soon. Probably only when it doesn't work anymore.
For that style of music, mix 1 for sure. Can totally hear the analogue treatments in the other 2 mixes, brings a bit more bass and makes the highs a bit rounder but not really necessary for this type of songs, but the mix 1 really cut through well for this genre of music, specially for the difference of money. Needless to say you know how to mix that's for sure, the three mixes sound pro to my ears it is just a matter of taste, anyway any of those 3 mixes you could pick could end up going to the master engineer he won't be annoyed with bad mistakes :). Cool track btw you could place it in different movies etc...
@LaidbackSounds Thank you! I appreciate the kind words. By the way, I totally agree! I ended up going with mix 2 just because it was giving me a bit of that analog mojo I was looking for - that is, it was adding harmonic content that was bringing up the lower level elements of the mix. I had Howie Weinberg master it and it came out incredibly well. The release date is set for February 10th! Coming right up! I'm stoked!
Bit late to the party, but for me mix 3 just added more depth and movement to the track, it gave it more feel. This is what you want for a dance track, as dance music is as much about feel as it is the sound and mix 3 has that thing where, if you heard it in. a bar or party, you would unconscious start bopping to the beat and want to dance to it.. Mix 2 also sounded great and mix one is also a good mix, but doesn't have that feel.
I loved mix1 and mix2...found mix 3 too flat for this style. I love V shape in house music. Also I felt version1 is more wide a tad bit than 2. I have a feeling if you give your v.3 song for mastering, the mastering engineer will add that little low end that was lost.
No. I ended up selling it, but I always wished I gave it more of a chance. It's a lot to get into with the cost of the Orbit, a 16 channel interface dedicated just to summing and the cabling. It also complicates routing during the mixing process. It's a big commitment financially and technically and I wasn't getting the results I was hoping for. It was a minor difference that to me wasn't worth the dollars and change in workflow. But I'd like to giving summing another try sometime either with the Orbit or Dangerous XT+ and try mixing into it opposed to adding it on at the end. I'm pretty sure I'll still prefer what I'm getting in the box today but, you never know until you try it.
Hi Gosha! Thank you for watching and for your comment. I use the Apogee Symphony I/O converters with the 16 analog and digital I/O card. I also have a UA Apollo but the Apogee Symphony is what I use primarily. I send all groups to analog summing so on this tune, I sent 12 channels. You can see how I break down my groups in the session starting at 0:30 in this video. You'll see I have five stereo groups (10 channels) and 2 mono groups (another 2 channels). That's typically what I do, 12-14 channels out to the analog summing but it's good to have all sixteen if I need them! Thanks again!
Hmm interesting, I'm listening on HD560S slightly modified pretty flat headphones and the slight differences are there definitely but, I'm actually not so sure which one I prefer. I actually kinda like the sharpness and punch of mix 1 but the other sounds just bit more relaxing, glued. I think that neve analog summing would probably benefit other musical styles bit more rather than electronic genres, this is where in the box mix kinda works well for me. Thx for comparison I would love to see comparison of SSL bus comp only, the new software version 2 vs your hardware SSL comp.
Thanks Daniel! I totally agree. That's why I thought to make this video. I couldn't decide. I made other versions too but these were my top three. The silk red and blue textured definitely adds some nice color but I usually have everything just the way I want it in the mix so I haven't ended up using that feature on anything as of yet. Still dialing in my sound I guess... And yes, I've got a series of SSL G Compressor comparison videos coming with the new Native SSL G Compressor 2 using different compression ratios and genres. Stay tuned for those! Thanks again, I hope you have a good day!
@Les Vegas Maybe that Neve summing mixer would show its best colours when you mix into it, or in other words use it from the beginning of mixing and not as glue at the end, I'm not sure if that's this case but that one case I think could justify this box otherwise I'm not so sure.
Oh yeah, works great pushing into it. I'll try some more of that in the future but for this test, I just wanted to tack it on at the end before the G Bus Comp and see if it would give the mix a touch of analog flavor to an otherwise all digital mix and I think it did that. It's just subtle and that's the primary thing I wanted to show people in this video. Especially those just starting out mixing with gear acquisition syndrome. 🙂
Also, there will be a full video on the Orbit coming as well where I show how it sounds using the -6 dB outputs. That's where it really shines and works really well as a clipper! You can push into it as hard as you want and it just will not go over 0 dB in the DAW no matter how hard you try! Good to get a little extra volume and harmonics happening adding a little fullness to an otherwise all digital mix. Anyway, we just like to play and see what happens. 🙂
If I had to pick one it'd be the middle one but in all honesty, on my apple buds at least, the difference is minimal to me. The only thing I could pick up on was possibly a smidge more edge to the vocal using the outboard gear, but I could be imagining that ;) Great bass and groove btw!
Thanks so much Harry! The differences are subtle! They don't have to be though... I'll be making another video to show how the analog summing mixer sounds when it's pushed and using the red and blue texture. Some will like the sound more, but right now anyway, I prefer a more subtle, less compressed and saturated approach.
No, you didn’t imagine it. I feel the same way using AirPods. What I do want to say is that this mix sounds amazing through each chain. Stumbled here just looking at the 5057. First listen & the chorus has me closing option 3.
I can't tell the difference. I'm listening on a macbook pro 13" (probably crap speakers). More importantly, I've never had good equipment nor trained myself to notice the subtleties.
Hey Carrie! Thank you for watching and for your comment.Yes. Very subtle differences that most wouldn't be able to hear, especially on laptop speakers!
Ahaha. I have a very close a friend who's a professional musician and studio owner that said the same thing! I like that mix too. Do you have an analog summing mixer?
@@LesVegasMusic Better than that ( I think), I have a Ramsa WRT-820 20 channel console and some outboard. It is a nice punchy console and clean. Was for broadcasting I think. I have a bit of outboard gear too ( a few comps, preamps, and SS pultec stereo clone) but due to tests like these, have decided not to purchase hardware EQ's for the most part because in my shootouts with hardware vs. plugs, the plugin EQ are 95% there. But here honestly, I really liked Mix 1. Crazy !
That's excellent! Yep. I agree with you on the EQ. I always feel like I really want one or two of the SSL E Channel 500 Series EQ's but that'll cost just under $2k and I just bought the SSL Native Essentials Bundle for $50! It's very close to the hardware and I have unlimited instances so it has been a hard sell for me to invest in the hardware. I think if anything, I'm finding that I just need one good preamp (although I have several industry standard options there), EQ and compressor for recording on the way in - but the rest I can do in the box. Where I've been and want to continue investing in hardware is for mix bus and mastering duties. I think for me and the music I make, hardware makes the most difference and is heard and felt at that stage in the record making process more than anywhere else. It might all be able to be done completely in the box just as well today, but that's where I'm at in my thinking and at this stage in my music production journey. I plan to keep making these hardware vs plugin comparison videos and continue testing. My dream tests would be with the GML 8200, EAR 825, Sontec MEP-250EX, and Maselec MEA-2 mastering EQs! OMG! Oh, and hardware reverbs like the Bricasti M7, Lexicon 480 and 224! I'd love to do hardware vs plugin comparison videos on those too.
@@LesVegasMusic I was also eyeing a pair of those SSL and then grabbed the native V.2 plugin on sale for 50$ and that pretty much ended that chase for me. Insane how good it and the comp are. Very close. If anything my eyes want the hardware more than my ears need it. For the mastering end, check out Mix:analog and access analog hardware in the cloud. Tons of mastering gear there and you may find you don't even need the hardware. Use the plugins to mix and then replace those with the hardware through those two sites for final mixdown. I think more and more services like that will pop up giving us true hybrid options. I know Mix:analog is even working on a summing box that can be accessed in the cloud. Not sure these huge studios will be able to stay open at this rate.
Just a heads up ur video doesn't tell us which is analog and which is in the box. U just played the track. Don't know what ur were thinking if ur tryna compare because u didn't differentiate between the two test.
@thatruth1509 Yeah man, thanks for the feedback. It's something I wouldn't do today, but back when I made this video I thought it would be obvious since I labeled both the track names and the audio clips themselves. I figured when I was soloing the tracks, people would read the track and clip names of the track I was on to see which was which. I'm sorry about that. I appreciate you pointing that out.
@@thatruth1509 Or really? When I make the video full screen and turn on 1080 HD quality I can see it great here. I'll copy the track names below and pin it to the top of the comments now. Thanks again! Track 1 - 100% In The Box - bxSSL4000E Group Summing - SSL Native Bus Compressor 2 Track 2 - Neve 5057 ORBIT Summing Mixer - No Texture - Main Outs - SSL G Comp Track 3 - Neve 5057 ORBIT Summing Mixer - Silk Red 12 O' Clock - Main Outs - SSL G Comp
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Audio Comparisons:
Track 1 - 100% In The Box - bxSSL4000E Group Summing - SSL Native Bus Compressor 2
Track 2 - Neve 5057 ORBIT Summing Mixer - No Texture - Main Outs - SSL G Comp
Track 3 - Neve 5057 ORBIT Summing Mixer - Silk Red 12 O' Clock - Main Outs - SSL G Comp
Great job with the video. As for now, on my MacBook Pro speakers it is hard to discern which mix I preferred. Can't really hear a difference here but I will listed in the studio Les! Thank you for the effort!
@rickalvarez7591 Thank you! Yeah, I think with this test, the difference would be too subtle to make a significant difference on any laptop speakers. You know, the other thing with this test is, I put the summing on at the end of the mix. I didn't mix into the summing mixer from the start of the mix. I don't have the 5057 Orbit anymore. I sold it because I thought the results were too subtle, but I always wish I had given it more of a chance. I'd like to try mixing into it from the start of a mix. People use it both ways, I guess I was just expecting more from it by applying it at the end of the mix. But now that I have more experience, I'm interested in giving analog summing another try. Either with the 5057 again, or the Dangerous Music 2-BUS-XT. However, another thing I learned from my limited experience with analog summing is how costly it is to get into! I was thinking I could just buy a $2,000 box and get console sound from my DAW. However, you also need sixteen additional dedicated analog inputs and outputs that you won't be using for anything else - ever! For me, that meant spending another $1,500-$6,000 on a new audio interface or converters, plus another $720 in cabling! So, if and when I decide to give it another try, I'm looking at a minimum of $3,600 if I were to buy everything used! Phew! That's a tough pill to swallow for analog summing. It also adds another level of complexity to your workflow that you have to be willing to deal with. I really prefer to keep things as simple as possible to ensure I don't get bogged down in technical issues. With my limited amount of free time, I rather use that extra bandwidth on creativity and experimentation in my productions and mixes but, there's a part of me that thinks I could get it all setup and integrated into my workflow in a transparent way that will become essentially invisible so, I'm willing to give it another try.
You get the most out of the summing units when you mix into them. You can hear the differences in this example but it is subtle. Better separation, wider, and the instruments seem to pop out of the speakers more with the summing box.
@Circharles Agree 100%. I ended up selling the Orbit, but wish I had given it more time. Now I'm interested in the Dangerous Music 2-BUS-XT.
@@LesVegasMusicwhy did you sell it? Some ppl say that the dangerous sound clean almost like in the box?
@@Gang-25j I sold it because it wasn't meeting my expectations. I thought it would substantially improve my sound, but the differences were subtle. However, I always wish I had given it more time. The way to get the best results from summing mixers is to mix into them. I know that now. But at the time, I was just adding at the end of the mixing process and hoping for an improvement. I discovered, at least for me, that's not the way to do it. It also adds complexity to my workflow. For the most part, I'm always recording, mixing and mastering my own stuff so I'll start to make some mixing moves and automation all along the way - even while I'm tracking. You can't track through the summing mixer without a bit of extra latency so I would take it off when I'm tracking. So by the end of recording and going into the mixing stage, I'd already have a good balance and mix going. And in order to start mixing into the Orbit, I'd really have to start the mix from scratch to do it properly and I never wanted to do that because it was already sounding good, so why undo everything just to start mixing into the summing mixer? If I could just completely separate the tracking/recording stage and mixing stage, it would work for me. But when I have an idea, I like to get it down as quickly as possible so it's been hard for me to completely separate the two stages of the process. Plus, like many of us I think, I like to hear things sounding closer to a finished product all along the way. If I was simply mixing other people's stuff, it would be easy for me to properly integrate summing and I think I would really like it. And yes, the Dangerous 2-BUS-XT is clean, definitely cleaner than the Orbit with transformers and silk circuitry, but I like what the coherence button does on Dangerous 2-BUS-XT. Today, I can get the analog console sound I was after from plugins so I'm not relying on outboard hardware for that anymore. Today, I think I would be more interested in summing for increased headroom, loudness, and added dimension. But honestly, I've been able to achieve all that completely in the box today and I'm happy with the sound I'm getting so I don't think I'll be integrating analog summing back into the mix anytime soon. If I do, it would just be for further experimentation and exploration.
Hey man, thanks for the video - question, did you try to pushing its input slightly into clipping? I heard form Neve directly that there is where you notice the real difference without destroying the mix. I am not sure this is true🤙🏼
@quantika72 Thanks for watching and for your comment. Yes, the best way to use the Orbit Summing Mixer is to push its input and to mix into it from the beginning. When I had it, I was tacking it on at the end and experimenting with driving its input stage. Using it that way, the results were too subtle for me to want to keep it. However, I always wished I hung onto it a little longer and gave it more of a try mixing into it from the start of a mix. It also just didn't really fit in my workflow since I write, record, mix and master all my own music. I'm always writing and recording at the same time, and a lot of mixing moves I do at this stage too so, I never wanted to track into the summing mixer, and by the end of the recording stage, the mix is usually about 90% done! So, I would always end up just adding it on at the end to see if it improved it and like I said, the results were too subtle for my taste doing it that way - but it seemed that's where it worked best in my workflow. The other thing is, 16 channels of summing is very expensive to get into. For $1,500 on Black Friday, getting Neve console summing sounds like the best deal in pro audio! But then you realize you need a high quality audio interface with 16 analog ins and outs dedicated just to summing alone (and none of those are cheap - $1,500 used at least - plus, you need another interface to monitor on and to hook up any other additional analog equipment you have), two $300 snakes and four $70 XLR cables. 🤯 Plus, it does complicate routing and setup in your mix template. It's not super easy at first. Once you get it all set up, and you have a good understanding of it all, I guess it's not a big deal really. But, it definitely complicates things when you're doing everything yourself, and I'm always looking for ways to simplify things while still getting the sound I want. I'm at that point now, and without analog summing. However, with that said, I'd still like to give it another try! 🙂 I would go for the Orbit again or the Dangerous Music 2-BUS-XT.
the second one is soooo much more open and wide, the elements are much more separated and it feels alive!
Thanks so much Petr! I sincerely appreciate that!
I’ll be completely honest… I listened to all the examples with my eyes closed, and I didn’t HEAR much of a difference (I did hear differences but they where very subtle), but the third one made me FEEL the music a lot more than the other 2. So my answer would be YES, if we can make the people connect more with our music then I’d say those 5ks are worth 🙏🏻🙌🏻
Thank you for watching and for helping me pick my final mix!
Timecodes
0:00 - Intro
0:27 - ITB Mix Details
1:08 - Analog Mix Details
2:45 - Mix Comparison
24/96?
GREAT REVIEW, DOPE RECORD ALSO, GOOD JOB MAN !!!
@DvrkFvther Thanks so much! I really appreciate that. ✌🏼❤️
Wonderful video...I liked 1 and 3 the most...which ones where the analog mixes?
Hey! Thanks so much for watching and for your comment. The analog mixes were 2 and 3! 🙌
I know this is late, but I enjoyed the overall imaging of mix 2 very much. The only other thing I would say is that the vocals are really pushed forward on the third mix with the RND silk saturation mode.
the middle part of your video is what a trailer for an analog mixing movie would sound like.. "arrree you rreaddyyy....this 2022.... with a threshold of -20db....and a ratio of 10:1....like you've never seen before...."
Ahaha. Yes! I guess that's just how excited I get about this stuff! Thanks for watching and for your comment.🙂
All 3 are usable. Wasn’t any night and day differences, especially between 1 and 2. The third to my ear had more of a bump in the lows/highs and sounded subtly more pleasing to me. Is it worth the money for the difference? It depends. Especially if the intended purpose were to acquire a Mixbus/summing processor that could be useful in multiple instances. For the more common consumer though I find it to be unnecessary especially if u have the skill to achieve a great mix ITB. But with all intent, the goal for most even starting out is expansion and if u have the means, go for it.
Wow! That’s all I can say! The second one was good tome!
Thank you!
Yeah you can def tell the difference, the first mix is thin and not very warm but still sounds good. The 2nd 1 had much more width and depth to it and sounded a little warmer with some better presence. Thats more what i aim for with my mixes, sounded very nuetral and natural and clear. The 3rd one was great too, even more warmth, depth and width. Made the track sound alot fuller and thicker. Definitely should be a eye opener to all those itb only people lol. Nothing wrong with in the box but if you think people are dumb for spending that much on analog gear is stupid, maybe it is lol but this is what were chasing. But ive noticed those people usually say “i can barely even hear any difference at all they all sound the same at the end” 🙄
Haha. That's right. Thank you for watching and for your comment! I appreciate your time and feedback.
I like the 3rd mix.. it gave them vocals more push..sounding more forward and clear..
Thanks T 3wayz! I appreciate that! See you out there!
BTW THE TRACK SOUNDS GREAT. I really think the unit has to be in the mix to adjust for the device. For mastering version 2 would be the pro choice. Cheers love the post.
Mix 2 sounds the best
Hi Andy! Thanks so much for watching and for sharing your thoughts. Agreed! That's the one I ended up sending off to master. Do you use analog summing or are you considering adding it to your setup?
@@LesVegasMusic I definitely want to get the orbit 5057 but currently have an Apollo twin x and need to learn the routing process
@@AndyKingCo Awesome! Yeah, it can be a little confusing when you've never done it before but it's quite simple actually. First, you just need an audio interface with 16 analog ins and outs. I use it with the Apogee Symphony I/O. Then, you just need two DB25 to DB25 cables and run them out from the audio interface and into the Orbit. Then you just need two XLR to TRS cables and run the summed stereo mix out of the Orbit and back into your audio interface on two channels. Print it. Done. In Ableton and many other DAWs, you just put a simple utility plugin on each group track and tell it which channels to send out to. Feel free to always reach out to me here or at lesvegasmusic@gmail.com with any questions you might have. I'd love to help!
@@LesVegasMusic thank you so much brother! You’re a great person. I just subscribed to your channel 👍🏻
Oh, I appreciate that Andy. Thanks so much! I have a great video comparing the SSL G Bus Compressor to the new SSL THE BUS+ coming out tomorrow that you might be interested in. See you soon!
I discovered this channel only recently. I prefer 2nd mix :)
@bkxt Thanks so much!
Top one with bottom one being a close second is my choice!
Thanks Dustin! I appreciate that!
ok. That was the last summing mixer Video I`ll watch. I`ll get a fatso instead :D
Haha. Well, to be fair, they do have a bigger impact when you mix into them instead of just slapping them on at the end like I did here. I've learned the difference is pretty minor when you do it that way. I like this one and the Dangerous Music 2-BUS-XT. Especially the coherence button. I'm not using summing anymore though. It's a lot to get into. You need an additional 8-16 channels (so that's another one to two new interfaces) and some costly snakes so... not sure it's worth it. Not to mention all the extra routing to think about and deal with inside the DAW. I like to keep things simple today and I find I can get the sound in after 100% in the DAW now - just using hardware for tracking.
@@LesVegasMusic Yes I get that. But in that case there comes the question to my mind, that when all that I am doing is just pushing louder signal into the stereo-output-stage-transformers, why not get a simple stereo unit an safe on the extra d/a and cables. I mean it's the same as pushing signal into 2 542s without the tape circuit on and using just the silk section. you get that for 1800EUR and have the ability to use the tape-emulation as well. Same with the Dangerous gear. They have some nice Transformers and other Features but in the end those Circuits are all just on the stereo bus and not on the individual Channels of the summing-mixer...Cheers! Bernd
Yep. That's right. I still always wished I gave summing a bit more time to experiment with but, I'll try again some other time. Right now I'm getting the results I'm after without it. Maybe now that my ears are dialed into the finer details this type of gear delivers it would be different. I'm not sure though, and honestly, I haven't found a piece of RND gear that I connect with yet. I had the Orbit, two 542's, the MBP and MBT and each time I'm just like, this isn't improving my mix and it's just adding stuff I don't want.
@@LesVegasMusic Mhm. RND....It really only clicks for me with their silk circuit. I love that sound on rock-drums. But it's not modern and it's often not the sound that I have in my head for a track. So yes, I tend to use is more on the blue silk side for bass-drums, and red for snares especially when a band asks me more for that 90`s rock-drum-sound. BTW would be happy to see you test the Dangerous Gear!
@thePunkRockMix Oh yeah. Well, I do like Silk Red, but I usually put enough high end or air in my mix that it's just too much by the time it hits the mix bus. Yes. I would love to test the Dangerous stuff. I have the Convert AD+ here but I'm not sure for how much longer. I'm getting the Apogee I/O Special Edition and I think it may replace it.
Enjoyed mix 3 the most. Can definitely hear the transformers at work. Mix 1 does sound nice but more flat. I also think the differences are even more obvious on slower RnB / ballad styles of music. RND gear pretty much shines on any audio that touches it!
Hey! Thanks so much for watching and for your comment. I liked mix 3 myself with the Silk Red at 50%. It loses a little bottom end though doesn't it? Otherwise, I love what it does to the midrange and top end.
@@LesVegasMusic Hey I have a Orbit myself. Love it. I think the red silk being applied may give the perception of reduced lows, but I don’t feel it’s actually the case. What I tend to do, is run the Mix through silk Blue at let’s say 30-50% and then re-pass it through silk Red at around 20-30% and it does wonders. I also use the Symphony IO, but the MK1. Happy mixing!
By the way, I had a question for you. On your Orbit, can you see the transformers from top grill holes, and if so does your transformers have yellow / cream covering or is it just copper color windings? Thanks
@@theredfaceofficial Oooo. Love that idea! I'll give it a try. And yes, I've got the MK1 myself. I would upgrade to the MKII chassis but my 16 I/O card is the the only card that doesn't work in the MKII chassis! My MK1 is still working well though and the converters are crystal. I can hear everything on those suckers so I won't be changing anytime soon. Probably only when it doesn't work anymore.
@@theredfaceofficial I just checked for you. Yellow covers on mine. Are they different on some?
For that style of music, mix 1 for sure. Can totally hear the analogue treatments in the other 2 mixes, brings a bit more bass and makes the highs a bit rounder but not really necessary for this type of songs, but the mix 1 really cut through well for this genre of music, specially for the difference of money. Needless to say you know how to mix that's for sure, the three mixes sound pro to my ears it is just a matter of taste, anyway any of those 3 mixes you could pick could end up going to the master engineer he won't be annoyed with bad mistakes :). Cool track btw you could place it in different movies etc...
@LaidbackSounds Thank you! I appreciate the kind words. By the way, I totally agree! I ended up going with mix 2 just because it was giving me a bit of that analog mojo I was looking for - that is, it was adding harmonic content that was bringing up the lower level elements of the mix. I had Howie Weinberg master it and it came out incredibly well. The release date is set for February 10th! Coming right up! I'm stoked!
great video. well put together. Subscribed
Thank you for watching and subscribing! I appreciate that. See you soon!
Bit late to the party, but for me mix 3 just added more depth and movement to the track, it gave it more feel. This is what you want for a dance track, as dance music is as much about feel as it is the sound and mix 3 has that thing where, if you heard it in. a bar or party, you would unconscious start bopping to the beat and want to dance to it.. Mix 2 also sounded great and mix one is also a good mix, but doesn't have that feel.
I loved mix1 and mix2...found mix 3 too flat for this style. I love V shape in house music.
Also I felt version1 is more wide a tad bit than 2.
I have a feeling if you give your v.3 song for mastering, the mastering engineer will add that little low end that was lost.
Thanks Joe! Very good feedback. I truly appreciate it!
Did you end up keeping the Orbit?
🥲 does that mean "yes"?
No. I ended up selling it, but I always wished I gave it more of a chance. It's a lot to get into with the cost of the Orbit, a 16 channel interface dedicated just to summing and the cabling. It also complicates routing during the mixing process. It's a big commitment financially and technically and I wasn't getting the results I was hoping for. It was a minor difference that to me wasn't worth the dollars and change in workflow. But I'd like to giving summing another try sometime either with the Orbit or Dangerous XT+ and try mixing into it opposed to adding it on at the end. I'm pretty sure I'll still prefer what I'm getting in the box today but, you never know until you try it.
Hi!
What converters you use for AD/DA?
How many channels you send to analog summing?
Hi Gosha! Thank you for watching and for your comment. I use the Apogee Symphony I/O converters with the 16 analog and digital I/O card. I also have a UA Apollo but the Apogee Symphony is what I use primarily. I send all groups to analog summing so on this tune, I sent 12 channels. You can see how I break down my groups in the session starting at 0:30 in this video. You'll see I have five stereo groups (10 channels) and 2 mono groups (another 2 channels). That's typically what I do, 12-14 channels out to the analog summing but it's good to have all sixteen if I need them! Thanks again!
Hmm interesting, I'm listening on HD560S slightly modified pretty flat headphones and the slight differences are there definitely but, I'm actually not so sure which one I prefer.
I actually kinda like the sharpness and punch of mix 1 but the other sounds just bit more relaxing, glued.
I think that neve analog summing would probably benefit other musical styles bit more rather than electronic genres, this is where in the box mix kinda works well for me.
Thx for comparison I would love to see comparison of SSL bus comp only, the new software version 2 vs your hardware SSL comp.
Thanks Daniel! I totally agree. That's why I thought to make this video. I couldn't decide. I made other versions too but these were my top three. The silk red and blue textured definitely adds some nice color but I usually have everything just the way I want it in the mix so I haven't ended up using that feature on anything as of yet. Still dialing in my sound I guess... And yes, I've got a series of SSL G Compressor comparison videos coming with the new Native SSL G Compressor 2 using different compression ratios and genres. Stay tuned for those! Thanks again, I hope you have a good day!
@Les Vegas Maybe that Neve summing mixer would show its best colours when you mix into it, or in other words use it from the beginning of mixing and not as glue at the end, I'm not sure if that's this case but that one case I think could justify this box otherwise I'm not so sure.
Happy to hear that more comparisons coming soon! 😉
Cheers!
Oh yeah, works great pushing into it. I'll try some more of that in the future but for this test, I just wanted to tack it on at the end before the G Bus Comp and see if it would give the mix a touch of analog flavor to an otherwise all digital mix and I think it did that. It's just subtle and that's the primary thing I wanted to show people in this video. Especially those just starting out mixing with gear acquisition syndrome. 🙂
Also, there will be a full video on the Orbit coming as well where I show how it sounds using the -6 dB outputs. That's where it really shines and works really well as a clipper! You can push into it as hard as you want and it just will not go over 0 dB in the DAW no matter how hard you try! Good to get a little extra volume and harmonics happening adding a little fullness to an otherwise all digital mix. Anyway, we just like to play and see what happens. 🙂
If I had to pick one it'd be the middle one but in all honesty, on my apple buds at least, the difference is minimal to me. The only thing I could pick up on was possibly a smidge more edge to the vocal using the outboard gear, but I could be imagining that ;) Great bass and groove btw!
Thanks so much Harry! The differences are subtle! They don't have to be though... I'll be making another video to show how the analog summing mixer sounds when it's pushed and using the red and blue texture. Some will like the sound more, but right now anyway, I prefer a more subtle, less compressed and saturated approach.
No, you didn’t imagine it. I feel the same way using AirPods. What I do want to say is that this mix sounds amazing through each chain. Stumbled here just looking at the 5057. First listen & the chorus has me closing option 3.
@XyenxFyxion Thanks so much! 🙏🏼
I prefer the ITB ones tbh
Through Focal Trio 11 Be sounds exactly the same
Hey Makis! Thanks for listening and letting me know. It is a subtle difference. Do you have a good pair of headphones you could listen on?
@@LesVegasMusic I have the Focal Clear Professional ,I will give a try
@@makistza Oh yeah. Give it a try. All that Focal stuff you have is excellent! Let us know if you hear any difference in the cans.
I can't tell the difference. I'm listening on a macbook pro 13" (probably crap speakers). More importantly, I've never had good equipment nor trained myself to notice the subtleties.
Hey Carrie! Thank you for watching and for your comment.Yes. Very subtle differences that most wouldn't be able to hear, especially on laptop speakers!
I picked Mix 1.. I'm a fan of analog and summing, and hardware. Did I just pick ITB?? uh oh.
Ahaha. I have a very close a friend who's a professional musician and studio owner that said the same thing! I like that mix too. Do you have an analog summing mixer?
@@LesVegasMusic Better than that ( I think), I have a Ramsa WRT-820 20 channel console and some outboard. It is a nice punchy console and clean. Was for broadcasting I think. I have a bit of outboard gear too ( a few comps, preamps, and SS pultec stereo clone) but due to tests like these, have decided not to purchase hardware EQ's for the most part because in my shootouts with hardware vs. plugs, the plugin EQ are 95% there. But here honestly, I really liked Mix 1. Crazy !
That's excellent! Yep. I agree with you on the EQ. I always feel like I really want one or two of the SSL E Channel 500 Series EQ's but that'll cost just under $2k and I just bought the SSL Native Essentials Bundle for $50! It's very close to the hardware and I have unlimited instances so it has been a hard sell for me to invest in the hardware. I think if anything, I'm finding that I just need one good preamp (although I have several industry standard options there), EQ and compressor for recording on the way in - but the rest I can do in the box. Where I've been and want to continue investing in hardware is for mix bus and mastering duties. I think for me and the music I make, hardware makes the most difference and is heard and felt at that stage in the record making process more than anywhere else. It might all be able to be done completely in the box just as well today, but that's where I'm at in my thinking and at this stage in my music production journey. I plan to keep making these hardware vs plugin comparison videos and continue testing. My dream tests would be with the GML 8200, EAR 825, Sontec MEP-250EX, and Maselec MEA-2 mastering EQs! OMG! Oh, and hardware reverbs like the Bricasti M7, Lexicon 480 and 224! I'd love to do hardware vs plugin comparison videos on those too.
@@LesVegasMusic I was also eyeing a pair of those SSL and then grabbed the native V.2 plugin on sale for 50$ and that pretty much ended that chase for me. Insane how good it and the comp are. Very close. If anything my eyes want the hardware more than my ears need it. For the mastering end, check out Mix:analog and access analog hardware in the cloud. Tons of mastering gear there and you may find you don't even need the hardware. Use the plugins to mix and then replace those with the hardware through those two sites for final mixdown. I think more and more services like that will pop up giving us true hybrid options. I know Mix:analog is even working on a summing box that can be accessed in the cloud. Not sure these huge studios will be able to stay open at this rate.
sounds the same to me. Save the cash
Ha! Thanks Dave!
In fact tools don't define the sound, mire your have top grade analog stuff, faster you mix, that's all ;-)
Just a heads up ur video doesn't tell us which is analog and which is in the box. U just played the track. Don't know what ur were thinking if ur tryna compare because u didn't differentiate between the two test.
@thatruth1509 Yeah man, thanks for the feedback. It's something I wouldn't do today, but back when I made this video I thought it would be obvious since I labeled both the track names and the audio clips themselves. I figured when I was soloing the tracks, people would read the track and clip names of the track I was on to see which was which. I'm sorry about that. I appreciate you pointing that out.
@@LesVegasMusic when u watch the video the writing is too small to read. Impossoble to read what track ur on as we can't make out any titles.
@@thatruth1509 Or really? When I make the video full screen and turn on 1080 HD quality I can see it great here. I'll copy the track names below and pin it to the top of the comments now. Thanks again!
Track 1 - 100% In The Box - bxSSL4000E Group Summing - SSL Native Bus Compressor 2
Track 2 - Neve 5057 ORBIT Summing Mixer - No Texture - Main Outs - SSL G Comp
Track 3 - Neve 5057 ORBIT Summing Mixer - Silk Red 12 O' Clock - Main Outs - SSL G Comp