I'm reminded of classics from the middle ages such as The Romance of the Rose, the Faerie Queene, Sidney's Arcadia, Robert De Boron, the Lancelot and the Tristan Cycles and so on. All of which are either out of print or going out of print but were extremely popular a while ago.
I feel that there’s a larger conversation to be had about what is meant by “classics.” Is it something that is continuously enjoyed by readers over generations? Or could it also be a work that is historically important (first of its kind, influential, etc.) and therefore will always have relevance even if it’s not widely read?
Great discussion of a topic that seems to be one of those forever-being-pondered subjects. I remember a literature professor talking about this once, and talking about parameters; books that speak to people outside of their time and culture, works that demonstrably influence subsequent work, works that a consensus of acedemia find worthy of study because of structure, content, and so on. Popularity, at least in part, would play a role, but wouldn't be defining. That same professor took us through some works of the 18th and 19th century that were hugely popular at the time, declared "modern classics" in their day that have disappeared and no one has heard of today. But I'm pretty sure that Penguin's inability to sell a book doesn't factor in to the definition.
Michael, are you gearing up to do a weekly episode called "The Lost Classics"? Something that will showcase out of print books that have some significance.
This is a fine video. I think Classics is all a popularity contest. The whims of the time really dictate the Classics of the time. And I think that's fine. Am I unhappy that some great pieces are forgotten? Sure, because I want people to dig what I think is great. But, that's why we need video channels like yours that tells of works we might not know. Or for me, going to a teaming used bookstore is the best way to find the discarded classics. But there are fewer and fewer used book shops.
Remember when Dennis Yeats Wheatley was the main man, the top dude, the big cheese? Who reads that guy now? Not many, except for Mark Gatiss. And Jonathan Rigby, of course. And maybe Neil Gaiman...
It does raise many fascinating (and, perhaps, upsetting) questions. In part, those questions seem, to me, to touch on the potential of our assessment of various integral human values to change: human universal values and realities may not change, but our estimation of each one's importance within a particular cultural or individual moment may change. Great art always seems to deal in the deep truths and values--to uphold them, to question them, to observe, defy, recontextualize. Such art will always be good, whether anyone would be around to hear the trees fall or not. Regarding definitions, though, we might need to rethink our approach. If the indelible impression and high stature of such elemental expressions of humanity are so subject to the practical realities of publication technology and distribution, the undulation of artistic tastes, and the requirements of sound business practices, perhaps it would be best to revert to the academic definition of "classic" or "classical": only those works concurrent with the Greco-Roman world.
They are still classics. Penguin just doesn't make money on them. If you walked into a Barnes and Noble today, you may find a very small selection of these classics on the bookshelf. But now, their management is localized to each community. The stores are run independently of each other. If your local store wants to carry a certain classic, they can. There is no cookie cutter form for Barnes and Noble now. They are run as independent stores. I have read The Golden Bowl. It was the first Henry James I read. I knew right away why he was considered a heavy weight. Jack London stories of survival in the wilderness books are not popular today because kids are not allowed to even leave their houses to go play in the woods behind their houses. How could they even survive their back yard? My parents told us to go play and we played in the woods and everywhere and they would call to us to come home and we did. Just yell out the door. That's all it took. Too bad about poor old Jack London.
I agree generally, but London wrote some pretty awful stuff. He believed in the Yellow Menace and literally, in one of his stories, celebrated a scientist who developed a remedy that would simply "kill off" the Chinese and other east Asians. That was a bit much, especially since my first wife and mother of my children was from Thailand.
I think just because people don't read a book, doesn't mean that it isn't a classic. BTW, The Purple Land is available on the Kindle, as well as his other books. An example of a classic author that isn't read as much anymore is Pearl S. Buck.
I do read Jack London, but his science fiction mostly, which is VERY relevant these days. But you're right, I didn't know about his views and few people probably do, whereas everybody has heard about Lovecraft's.
Hello Michael. According to Dr. Samuel Johnson, the test of time which the literary work must pass is around a century. He made that point clear in his LIVES OF THE POETS as well as in his Preface to his edition of Shakespeare's plays. He predicted( according to Boswell's LIFE OF JOHNSON ) that GULLIVER'S TRAVELS would not survive the test of time, but apparently he was wrong there . I am learning a lot from each and every comment on your excellent video Michael. Greetings from Iraq
I didn't even realize Jack London had other books besides White Fang and Call of the Wild lol. Loved the books as a kid. I'm going to have to reread them and then check out some of his other stuff.
Great topic. I think there are two ways classics change: some books become rarely read or "forgotten classics" but people's assessment of their quality/importance still make them classics. While other works/writers do fall fully out of classic status but I think it has more to do with reassessment of quality or importance (which mostly plays out in academic arguments and general changing tastes). The question that's interesting for each book is which came first: did a book loose popularity and then people reassess it's quality/importance or did it loose popularity after reassessment? I read Jack London and Henry James a lot and love them (but my sense is you are right and both aren't read much by others alas). I can see Jack London becoming less read and eventually loosing classic status if his style of adventure tales loose literary statues. But I think even if Henry James is less read his work will survive based on uniqueness and ambition of style if nothing else. I think most of the time the loss of popularity comes first before the change in status to non classic, it's only a few books where theirs a drastic change in evaluation that drops a book right away. Luckily we also have the reassessed or rediscovered classics as you talked about with Lovecraft for example.
Jack London was a favorite of REH, who told Tevis Clyde Smith that London's "Star Rover" went to his head like a fine wine (it's amazing btw). SeaWolf Press prints all London's books (I recommend Before Adam, Sea-Wolf & Iron Heel) and they also print other great books (the 1st 10 Tarzan books are there). London should be read by all serious readers. His writings on ancestoral memories have had a great impact on me. Oh and read the Flashman Papers by George MacDonald Fraser. Would love to see a video on that series Mike. It would def help to put a dent in your 500 book challenge since there are 12 in the series and they're all rip-roaring good fun. No literary hero has had me doubled-over laughin harder than my boy Harry Flashman
Flashman is a great character and George MacDonald Fraser was a great admirer of Alexandre Dumas pere. He even wrote the screenplay for the Musketeer play in the 70's or 80's.
I remember The Prisoner of Zenda being a big deal when I was young (40+) years ago. But I haven't heard anything said about it in decades until you brought it up as part of your book club this year. It is interesting to see what remains a classic, like how we read Shakespeare today, but we don't read Marlowe or Kyd.
Marlowe underwent a revival in the 70's and 80's when the "Marlowe was Shakespeare" crew were beating their drum. Marlowe, at least could go toe to toe with Shakespeare as a poet and as a dramatist, which most other candidates the revisionists offer up simply cannot. But prior to that hardly any of the Elizabethans were read, let alone produced.
I don’t think that Penguin publishers said that the books they no longer publish aren’t still classics but simply didn’t sell. Bookstores and publishers are businesses that have to make a profit to keep going and pay their employees. Libraries have to show circulation numbers to justify their existence to the local government to ensure they will receive funding and grants. Titles and authors go in and out of fashion. Project Gutenberg is a great resource for those forgotten books and I hope they keep going strong.
There are also plenty of excellent books that while maybe not really good enough to be called classic are certainly worth a look but will not be reprinted because they are not in the public domain and the author is not so famous that his work is likely to sell regardless of its merit. Extending the term of copyright has condemned a lot of writers to a literary no man's land.
Oh, and Classic became a market category, too. There's that aspect we need to consider. It's where sales come in as an important aspect, although it's understandable that publishers needn't be forced to put out books that don't sell enough to pay the freight.
Follow the money. If an author falls out of favor and few buy his or her books, the publishers no longer earn the big bucks and into the vault the once well read Classic goes. Always about profit and the bottom line. Thank goodness for used bookstores and thrift shops.
Terrific topic and insights! Very thoughtful and, of course, stately. But hey! What ever happened to your most dangerous game of the Penguin Classics Random Challenge from last September or so? You almost talked ME into trying that one.
London: white fang/ call of the wild/ sea wolf all very good, but his best work comes in short stories! This guy put you there. I was always cold while reading London. It's been 50 or more yrs. since I've read anything by him, but I recall his work like it was yesterday. That's what makes a classic.
I was talking to a friend about a Robert E. Howard detective story. He mentioned Asian Detectives like Mr. Moto, Charlie Chan, and Mr. Wong. Have your done a video on these type of characters?
Hem: "Then there was another thing. He had been reading W. H. Hudson. That sounds like an innocent occupation, but Cohn had read and reread The Purple Land. The Purple Land is a very sinister book if read too late in life. It recounts splendid imaginary amorous adventures of a perfect English gentleman in an intensely romantic land, the scenery of which is very well described. For a man to take it at thirty-four as a guide-book to what life holds is about as safe as it would be for a man of the same age to enter Wall Street direct from a French convent, equipped with a complete set of the more practical Alger books." Hm. Dangerous books. That notion appeals to me.
Capitalism should never trump history...but I am not overly surprised. I am a bit mixed on the classics I've read, I've loved some, and hated others but like...they are labelled classics for a reason, and should be historically preserved. For example, I didn't care much for The Lost World but it captures a historical period and thought process that should be preserved/remembered. Maybe a new name would solve this? 'Culturally Relevant'...although that doesn't flow off the tongue as well. A great video, on a super interesting topic!
This shifting of interests is sometimes really unfair to amazing authors. I am forever grateful that Alice Walker did the work that she did to reintroduce Zora Neale Hurston to the world after her writing fell out of popularity and into obscurity in the 30’s. Hopefully she never goes out of print again!
One of Nassim Taleb’s books talks about a study of how long works remain in print. It found that if a book had been in print for x years, there was a 50% chance that it would remain in print for x more years. Here are some questions I’m not sure about: Is the author classic? Or particular works? With Hemingway, I think it’s pretty clear that The Sun Also Rises and the short stories are classics (especially stories like A Clean Well Lighted Place). But what about The Green Hills of Africa, or Islands in the Stream? Same goes with Melville: if Mardi or Pierre is a classic, my guess it’s only because of the tidal pull of Moby Dick. At the extreme, I think it’s safe to say that Aristotle’s Dialogues are no longer classics, no matter how much Cicero admired them (to be considered a classic, the work probably at least exist). I think the best definition of a classic is that it is a work of enduring merit. Endurance is relatively easy to measure, but it may become irrelevant in the internet age. It now seems like everything might be able to endure, and we might one day be talking about the classic TH-cam posts of Roger and that other guy. As for merit, that’s a bit more slippery and culturally defined - so we might use popularity, critical reception, scholarly appreciation, use in schools, or stated influence on other authors as proxies for it. Personally, I hesitate to call anything a classic that was written after 1959 (the year I was born). That’s probably part of my insistence that I’m not old yet, despite what anyone else might say. And a classic book is one whose reputation basically hits you in the face. The idea of an unknown or lost classic seems like an oxymoron to me.
Thank you for a very intelligent and thought-provoking video. Our household owns hundreds of books and I do not want them recycled after my death. I tell my descendants that many of these books may no longer be in print in the future, or may exist only in bowdlerized versions (cf current debate about Roald Dahl). A series on out-of-print "classics" would be nice.
Interesting video Michael. I've read The Purple Land and I think BookTime with Ryan has made a video or two about it. I'm slowly ploughing my way through The Mysteries of Paris at the moment and I'm really enjoying it. It's a shame that Penguin don't at least make them available as ebooks or print on demand, still I suppose many of them you can get through Gutenberg or Delphi.
It's not so much that the writers of the Penny Dreadfuls are (or will be) considered present (or potential future) classic authors...it's the Penny Dreadful itself - its influence, its forms and development - that is the important thing. The influence of the Penny Dreadful as an early genre on future Horror and Supernatural and Thriller writers is the key to the longevity of some of its most important works: Varney the Vampire, The Mysteries of Paris, The String of Pearls, et al. So there.
O'Hara was very popular in the United States in the 50]s but for some reason American Critics didn't like him, possibly because he was successful. Recently, American critics seemed to have embraced him and his reputation is rising. You cannot trust the critics.
I can think of a time when Moby Dick falls off the list of classics. It would be a shame, but it could happen. Who reads James Fenimore Cooper nowadays ?
When Classics become public domain and turn up in Project Gutenberg they can be read a lot even if not printed. Paper book lovers may never die off completely but what will happen in 50 years?
I enjoyed your episode. A classic for me is not dependent on time or some publisher's estimated consensus of what is classic. Literature tends to speak for itself.
I read Jack London a lot. I love his stuff. The Star Rover is really great -- it's all a guy in a straight-jacket tripping through previous lives in his own mind. Amazing book. And Thomas Ligotti should be classic. That guy is AMAZING.
Interesting topic. I wonder if there is a rough number of classics that society can deal with and if when new books come in they push some out? It feels like having too many books labelled as “classic” risks devaluing the term. In my defence, I never said W&P wasn’t a classic, just that it was boring AF 😂
Of course jack London is still classic. he was on Star Trek!!! He was quite a diverse writer though. he has some work of science fiction or post-apocalypse stuff that I seem to feel has had some renewed interest in recent years, due to the popularity of post-apocalyptic fiction and dystopias. I'm thinking of The Iron heel and that novella where most of the world's population dies of a plague -- forget the name now.
Hello! Hudson's The Purple Land is still in print in Argentina and Spain as La tierra purpúrea, but I wouldn't say it's considered a classic, just read with the respect given to a work published more than 100 years ago 🤔
Ah the Purple Land, that could be mistaken for the private estate where Prince had his recording studio. Prisoner of Zenda might have fallen from favour with Penguin Classics but its still available to buy.. probably because its .. a classic. I always considered Classics to be older works, like an antique as opposed to vintage, not necessarily popular modern works but some of them muscled in on the fun Homer and the Brontes were having. I guess if you can't justify another print run then its retire to the vault to be dusted off when the world remembers you enough to make a shilling or two.
We hope that abandoned classics will appear on Project Gutenberg. I checked: _The Purple Land_ is available on Project Gutenberg. Lord Dunsany is on Project Gutenberg. Henry James is available in Library of America (and Project Gutenberg). I would think Hemingway is "safe". John O'Hara is helped by his novels being made into films. Jack London was a popular leftist radical, which explains some of his popularity today. I wish, I hope, that William Faulkner would find his way to the vault, but I'm not holding my breath.
I read a bunch of Jack London last year on Kindle. I like his work especially his short story collections. Eventually I will buy all of his books in print.
You're spot on with the London v Lovecraft comparison, and Robert E Howard. John O'hara - who's that ? 🤭 Lord Dunsany's problem is his name. The publishing house needs to change it up a bit. Coolio Dunsany - now that would sell much better 😉 What can I say I'm an ideas man.
I think it may have been best if the definition of classics was books written during the classic period i.e. ancient Greece and Roman. Otherwise a classic is too ill define of a term. The Disney corporation calls every movie they make a classic (and a lot of people buy it despite the House of the Mouse producing a lot of crap over the years.) It's just to nebulous a term. Some classics are really polarizing like The Great Gatsby which is really a love it or hate it book. The popularity of certain writers changes overtime. Shakespeare's plays were popular with the masses but looked down upon by the elites. (All plays were by many in the Elizabethean Age.) Dickens was hated by many in the early 20th century. This has all changed. Shame about London. He was a really good writer.
@@frankmorlock9134 Wikipedia has heard of Nonnus and his great epic poem. Whether Wiki can be trusted to always tell the truth about a subject is another matter...
Until this video, I never realized I wanted to read about women in captivity. Too bad it's out of print! As always, nice tie; I really should get me one of those.
@@michaelk.vaughan8617 I suggest L’Assommoir (1877) or La Bête Humaine (1890). Both are available in Oxford World Classic editions and of course, Penguins. Zola doesn't skimp on realism or serious topics. Don't expect a happy ending. I got on a Zola kick a few years ago and quickly ran through 10. Easily one of the best writers of the 19th Century.
For public domain 'classic' works, reprint houses have to compete with online resources, which are much cheaper, less environmentally damaging, and more convenient for many people. (Especially those who are not yet convinced that e-goblins are being sent round the intertubes at round at night to secretly edit our ebooks. 🙂) And now with AI resources you can have a chat with a bot about the book afterwards, or use it it to check unfamiliar words and phrases; so the added value elements in traditionally published books are becoming irrelevant too.
I'm sure there was an Akkadian writer in 2250 BC who said to his friends, "These clay tablets are classics, they'll never be out of production". Tastes change, texts are lost in part or whole, language evolves and a society moves on. You also raise that philosophical question about the nature of creation: if a text (or painting or sculpture or whatever) no longer has a physical representation, does it still exist? My view is that it does because once a work has been created, it cannot be uncreated. But if no-one can access it then its value to humanity is decidedly lessened. Another aspect of this discussion is adaptation of a text into other media: if a movie based on a near-forgotten book is released, then the source material will likely undergo a renewal of interest to some degree. Just imagine if Mike Flanagan adapted William Hope Hodgson's "The Night Land", surely that would generate interest in what is an almost forgotten text (a classic for some but not for others, mainly those who have tried to wade through its archaic language and failed).
Penguin published books because they were classics. They did not make those books classics. They don't stop being classics because Penguin stop publishing them. In this modern age of print on demand I don't know what's stopping Penguin for keeping the slow sellers in print that way. Also, if they know full well that Oxford have it in print, and it's not a big seller, they may just be happy to let Oxford have it to themselves. One should also take into account that Penguin Random House are not the same as Penguin. They were bought out by big business, and big business cares a lot more about profit than they do historical, or literary importance. As to John O'Hara, I confess I'd never even heard of him before I saw either you, or Steve Donoghue mention him in videos. I'm a huge fan of Jack London, albeit I haven't read him In decades. To some extent. I don't think anyone should be considered a classic until they've been dead for at least 50 years! 😉
Regarding Eugene Sue(1804-1857). I don't know why you think Sue lacked literary merit. He was the first, and arguably the best, practitioner of the serialized novel. His plots were sensational, but they work. He is considered one of the ablest depicters of character and I think that is true. His characters are very believable. He depicts memorable characters from every social level, but especially the lower classes. He was very radical for his time--an open, ardent socialist. He was also anticlerical in The Wandering Jew. In his personal life, a bit of a dandy. His books sold very well. He was more popular than Dumas. Publication of his works in English seems to have been deliberately sabotaged. During the latter part of the 19th century and early 20th century he continued to be published in English but only because some socialist group subsidized their publication. I translated the play made from The Mysteries of Paris by Goubaux and Beudin who did a wonderful job with it. It's a monumental melodrama.
Cursor Effect, is what I call this. At any given time, the reading public, or society at large, has room for only so much stuff. Once at capacity - yes, it varies person to person, sure - any new item inevitably bumps out an older one. Hence, once-classics becoming OOP classics, ex classics, forgotten classics. Further exacerbating this corrosion of collective memory, some books remain in the classic, or popular, or discussed, or remembered zones of mind only so long as they remain pertinent to a given society. Some books have perennial appeal, others fall from grace and favor. Some of those latter can and will be rediscovered. Resurgence of interest leads to swelling popularity and, as often, swollen faces due to the beating taken from retro-critics bent on suppressing such round-file upstarts. How dare they un-crumple themselves? Cursor moves along, highlighting only so many at a time, new ones entering, old ones shoved out the back to bounce on history's tarmac. C'est la biblio-vie.
That's a good point. I once read a study that approached politics from a mental circuit point of view. Most people, even the smartest, can only keep a maximum of 16 things on their mind at one time. More than that and it's an overload both for individuals and society. a new hot topic displaces an old one. Remember Julius Caesar, who was a bit of a show off, dictating letters to several scribes at once. (I believe the number was around 16, but I decided to check and most sources say 2 or 4. I'm sure I read a much higher number. ) Also, for example in designing dials for pilots to check in planes, the number is usually limited.
I don't see why not. Whatever its literary merit, it is massively culturally significant (emerging from fanfic to become the fastest selling paperback ever in the UK) and fostering the mainstream publication of erotic fiction. In an increasingly censorious literary climate '50 Shades' is a beacon of hope for the future of free expression!
Thomas Ligotti I feel, deserves his place in the "Classic" pantheon, and I'm fairly sure he will be celebrated a lot more decades from now, he is the closest America has got to a modern Kafka albeit with a Lovecraft twist. There is something about his work that sticks in mind for months after I've read him.
I think ALL authors will be “pruned” and only one or two works being accounted “true classics”. For instance I used to LOVE John Buchan but I find his anti-red rhetoric and imperial gung-ho ness impossible these days. I don’t think anything will dethrone Thirty Nine Steps! But the rest? I just re-read Sickheart River which I would account a classic and still VERY readable, but I think it was never accounted a classic.. and never forget in the Nineties Penguin deleted ALL of Plato “cos it didn’t sell enough”!!! Interesting talk.
Schools and universities are also responsible for putting a lot of good books and authors in the shade. When books are on the curriculum, that means 5hey are probably available to buy, they are being read and are out there in the public arena. I recently dragged out my copy of Thucydides which I studied at school. I suppose its on Gutenberg but anyone younger than me will never be taught Thucydides.
In the end like lots of things it is all subjective, pretty much. I need to dig up what I have from Thomas Ligotti. I bought a number of things in the 90's because authors were name dropping him in magazine interviews but actually never read any of them. I need to rectify that one day. Jack London was forced on me way to much from probably 4th to 8th grade. We seemed to take some long portions of the school year to cover him. Had various school field trips to his museum in Glen Ellen. His name is all over the San Francisco bay area and I see his face (rather body in a swim garment at that) just about everyday because of a billboard advertising for supposedly a place that was among his favorites in the area. Never knew his views though. They didn't cover that.
Is Penguin weeding their garden with Round-Up?? And is Jack London relevant....? I am currently reading "The Iron Heel" which I had never heard of until recently on booktube. Hmm... he's writing about how fascism might take hold in the US. Relevant?? I wonder.
Enjoyable review. I don't think I will ever read any more Henry James after The Turn of the Screw. Maybe a few short stories. I read lots of old fantastic fiction and some new stuff, but old "classics?" Probably will never read Silas Marner or Elmer Gantry. I am reading Moby Dick and Earth Abides right now. I love Dickens and Twain. I guess a classic is a matter of individual taste but I don't think that is the true intent of the term. Befuddling. Ran into a DVD cover today: Where the Crawdads Sing. Intriguing premise. My sister told me to read the book. In the movie, the hillbilly girl who raises herself in a swamp looks like The Devil Wears Prada instead of a hillbilly girl who raises herself in a swamp. I will check out the book first.
You approached the answer at one point. It's all moot. Once the fascist "sensitivity readers" get done, all the classics will cease to exist anyway, replaced by wan and idiotic reflections of what they once were. They've moved on to Agatha Christie now -- huzzah. All hail the sensitivity readers! Thank you for saving us! They're coming for REH, Michael.
I won't stand for this Jack London slander. "Personal views" aside, he was an excellent author and is still fairly well-known even outside the anglosphere. Love his short stories. Great video tho!
Saying Jack London was a racist isn’t slander. It’s just a statement of fact. That has nothing to do with his writing talent. I find it interesting that London never catches the heat for his racism that Lovecraft does. It seems to me that London, great writer that he was, doesn’t have the cultural relevance that Lovecraft has.
If everyone in the World had a copy of say The Three Musketeers and therefore didn't need to buy a copy, the sales would stop. Does that mean The Three Musketeers is no longer a classic? No, it just means Penquin will go out of business.
Really like your channel! I apologize in advance for being this guy (the petty and irritating commenter), but it may be better to look directly at us, as opposed to the camera
I’m just way, way behind on the comments due to time constraints. Sorry about that. I’ve been sadly absent from Discord as well. I barely got this video out!
I fear that, in the next 10 years, the term classic is going to be pruned of a LOT of works. There's going to be a parting from "dead white male" authors, especially those who have written even a single word that can be considered counter to what people are pushed to embrace today. Sadly, that'll include your friend Lovecraft and would also keep out the worth Robert E. Howard - mighty thews is clearly something that could trigger something like swooning and we can't have that!
@@michaelk.vaughan8617 It was a little tongue-in-cheek there, and I hope a line gets drawn eventually to stop all the madness. The fact that it is even happening is shocking to me.
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Your reaction to Henry James always cracks me up. Please never stop doing that!
I'm reminded of classics from the middle ages such as The Romance of the Rose, the Faerie Queene, Sidney's Arcadia, Robert De Boron, the Lancelot and the Tristan Cycles and so on. All of which are either out of print or going out of print but were extremely popular a while ago.
I read the Faerie Queene in undergrad and LOVED it. It will always have a home in literature programs.
One of the reasons I love this channel is your focus on both pulp and classics. We voracious readers are commonly wide readers.
I feel that there’s a larger conversation to be had about what is meant by “classics.” Is it something that is continuously enjoyed by readers over generations? Or could it also be a work that is historically important (first of its kind, influential, etc.) and therefore will always have relevance even if it’s not widely read?
Great discussion of a topic that seems to be one of those forever-being-pondered subjects. I remember a literature professor talking about this once, and talking about parameters; books that speak to people outside of their time and culture, works that demonstrably influence subsequent work, works that a consensus of acedemia find worthy of study because of structure, content, and so on. Popularity, at least in part, would play a role, but wouldn't be defining. That same professor took us through some works of the 18th and 19th century that were hugely popular at the time, declared "modern classics" in their day that have disappeared and no one has heard of today. But I'm pretty sure that Penguin's inability to sell a book doesn't factor in to the definition.
Michael, are you gearing up to do a weekly episode called "The Lost Classics"? Something that will showcase out of print books that have some significance.
Excellent idea.
This is a fine video. I think Classics is all a popularity contest. The whims of the time really dictate the Classics of the time. And I think that's fine. Am I unhappy that some great pieces are forgotten? Sure, because I want people to dig what I think is great. But, that's why we need video channels like yours that tells of works we might not know. Or for me, going to a teaming used bookstore is the best way to find the discarded classics. But there are fewer and fewer used book shops.
Right on. But at least there is the Internet Text Archive, Project Gutenberg and so forth. But they are limited to public domain works.
Thank goodness for the Delphi series of endless complete works 😅
They keep on adding good stuff.
Delphi does good work.
I love your channel. I think it is the best book channel on You Tube.
Remember when Dennis Yeats Wheatley was the main man, the top dude, the big cheese? Who reads that guy now? Not many, except for Mark Gatiss. And Jonathan Rigby, of course. And maybe Neil Gaiman...
I collect all Penguin Classics I find; no matter the subject or author, I find one, I buy it.
Good policy.
@@michaelk.vaughan8617 It is because I am alfter all creating my own library....
I read some Jack London in the 60s.
It does raise many fascinating (and, perhaps, upsetting) questions. In part, those questions seem, to me, to touch on the potential of our assessment of various integral human values to change: human universal values and realities may not change, but our estimation of each one's importance within a particular cultural or individual moment may change. Great art always seems to deal in the deep truths and values--to uphold them, to question them, to observe, defy, recontextualize. Such art will always be good, whether anyone would be around to hear the trees fall or not. Regarding definitions, though, we might need to rethink our approach. If the indelible impression and high stature of such elemental expressions of humanity are so subject to the practical realities of publication technology and distribution, the undulation of artistic tastes, and the requirements of sound business practices, perhaps it would be best to revert to the academic definition of "classic" or "classical": only those works concurrent with the Greco-Roman world.
They are still classics. Penguin just doesn't make money on them. If you walked into a Barnes and Noble today, you may find a very small selection of these classics on the bookshelf. But now, their management is localized to each community. The stores are run independently of each other. If your local store wants to carry a certain classic, they can. There is no cookie cutter form for Barnes and Noble now. They are run as independent stores. I have read The Golden Bowl. It was the first Henry James I read. I knew right away why he was considered a heavy weight. Jack London stories of survival in the wilderness books are not popular today because kids are not allowed to even leave their houses to go play in the woods behind their houses. How could they even survive their back yard? My parents told us to go play and we played in the woods and everywhere and they would call to us to come home and we did. Just yell out the door. That's all it took. Too bad about poor old Jack London.
I agree generally, but London wrote some pretty awful stuff. He believed in the Yellow Menace and literally, in one of his stories, celebrated a scientist who developed a remedy that would simply "kill off" the Chinese and other east Asians. That was a bit much, especially since my first wife and mother of my children was from Thailand.
I noticed that my Barnes and Noble has a lot of classics, just not much from Penguin.
I think just because people don't read a book, doesn't mean that it isn't a classic. BTW, The Purple Land is available on the Kindle, as well as his other books. An example of a classic author that isn't read as much anymore is Pearl S. Buck.
I LOVED her! Read a lot of her books when I was in hs.
@@carenome1 Me too. I was also reading James Michener.
I have a lot of her books printed in the
"The Good Earth" is the next book we're reading for book group! 🤩
Oh my The Good Earth
The Last Concubine.....
Great to see Lord Dunsany getting some attention!!
He needs more.
I do read Jack London, but his science fiction mostly, which is VERY relevant these days. But you're right, I didn't know about his views and few people probably do, whereas everybody has heard about Lovecraft's.
Hello Michael. According to Dr. Samuel Johnson, the test of time which the literary work must pass is around a century. He made that point clear in his LIVES OF THE POETS as well as in his Preface to his edition of Shakespeare's plays. He predicted( according to Boswell's LIFE OF JOHNSON ) that GULLIVER'S TRAVELS would not survive the test of time, but apparently he was wrong there . I am learning a lot from each and every comment on your excellent video Michael. Greetings from Iraq
Greetings, my friend! Thanks for your insightful comment!
I didn't even realize Jack London had other books besides White Fang and Call of the Wild lol. Loved the books as a kid. I'm going to have to reread them and then check out some of his other stuff.
He wrote a lot.
Great topic. I think there are two ways classics change: some books become rarely read or "forgotten classics" but people's assessment of their quality/importance still make them classics. While other works/writers do fall fully out of classic status but I think it has more to do with reassessment of quality or importance (which mostly plays out in academic arguments and general changing tastes). The question that's interesting for each book is which came first: did a book loose popularity and then people reassess it's quality/importance or did it loose popularity after reassessment? I read Jack London and Henry James a lot and love them (but my sense is you are right and both aren't read much by others alas). I can see Jack London becoming less read and eventually loosing classic status if his style of adventure tales loose literary statues. But I think even if Henry James is less read his work will survive based on uniqueness and ambition of style if nothing else. I think most of the time the loss of popularity comes first before the change in status to non classic, it's only a few books where theirs a drastic change in evaluation that drops a book right away. Luckily we also have the reassessed or rediscovered classics as you talked about with Lovecraft for example.
As long as the Library of America series continues, Henry James will be safe!
Jack London was a favorite of REH, who told Tevis Clyde Smith that London's "Star Rover" went to his head like a fine wine (it's amazing btw). SeaWolf Press prints all London's books (I recommend Before Adam, Sea-Wolf & Iron Heel) and they also print other great books (the 1st 10 Tarzan books are there). London should be read by all serious readers. His writings on ancestoral memories have had a great impact on me. Oh and read the Flashman Papers by George MacDonald Fraser. Would love to see a video on that series Mike. It would def help to put a dent in your 500 book challenge since there are 12 in the series and they're all rip-roaring good fun. No literary hero has had me doubled-over laughin harder than my boy Harry Flashman
Flashman is a great character and George MacDonald Fraser was a great admirer of Alexandre Dumas pere. He even wrote the screenplay for the Musketeer play in the 70's or 80's.
I do need to read Flashman.
I'd never laughed so much while reading a historical novel as I did whilst reading Flashman.😂
I remember The Prisoner of Zenda being a big deal when I was young (40+) years ago. But I haven't heard anything said about it in decades until you brought it up as part of your book club this year. It is interesting to see what remains a classic, like how we read Shakespeare today, but we don't read Marlowe or Kyd.
Marlowe underwent a revival in the 70's and 80's when the "Marlowe was Shakespeare" crew were beating their drum. Marlowe, at least could go toe to toe with Shakespeare as a poet and as a dramatist, which most other candidates the revisionists offer up simply cannot. But prior to that hardly any of the Elizabethans were read, let alone produced.
I'd really like to see more vids like this!
I don’t think that Penguin publishers said that the books they no longer publish aren’t still classics but simply didn’t sell. Bookstores and publishers are businesses that have to make a profit to keep going and pay their employees. Libraries have to show circulation numbers to justify their existence to the local government to ensure they will receive funding and grants. Titles and authors go in and out of fashion. Project Gutenberg is a great resource for those forgotten books and I hope they keep going strong.
There are also plenty of excellent books that while maybe not really good enough to be called classic are certainly worth a look but will not be reprinted because they are not in the public domain and the author is not so famous that his work is likely to sell regardless of its merit. Extending the term of copyright has condemned a lot of writers to a literary no man's land.
I agree. I do my part. 🙂
Oh, and Classic became a market category, too. There's that aspect we need to consider. It's where sales come in as an important aspect, although it's understandable that publishers needn't be forced to put out books that don't sell enough to pay the freight.
Follow the money. If an author falls out of favor and few buy his or her books, the publishers no longer earn the big bucks and into the vault the once well read Classic goes. Always about profit and the bottom line. Thank goodness for used bookstores and thrift shops.
Unfortunately used books stores are dying out and have been for the last 20 years in the U.S.
Terrific topic and insights! Very thoughtful and, of course, stately. But hey! What ever happened to your most dangerous game of the Penguin Classics Random Challenge from last September or so? You almost talked ME into trying that one.
The 500 Book Challenge completely destroyed that whole idea and video, unfortunately. At least for a long time to come.
Hey - I've been reading The Golden Bowl this week. I hope Henry James is safe as an author of the classics.
Dramatizations have helped keep Henry James' works alive.
London: white fang/ call of the wild/ sea wolf all very good, but his best work comes in short stories! This guy put you there. I was always cold while reading London. It's been 50 or more yrs. since I've read anything by him, but I recall his work like it was yesterday. That's what makes a classic.
I was talking to a friend about a Robert E. Howard detective story. He mentioned Asian Detectives like Mr. Moto, Charlie Chan, and Mr. Wong. Have your done a video on these type of characters?
I haven’t read any of those books. Mark at Book Time With Elvis has though.
Do you have a video on 'forgotten classics'? I'd definitely like to try and read some.
Hem: "Then there was another thing. He had been reading W. H. Hudson. That sounds like an innocent occupation, but Cohn had read and reread The Purple Land. The Purple Land is a very sinister book if read too late in life. It recounts splendid imaginary amorous adventures of a perfect English gentleman in an intensely romantic land, the scenery of which is very well described. For a man to take it at thirty-four as a guide-book to what life holds is about as safe as it would be for a man of the same age to enter Wall Street direct from a French convent, equipped with a complete set of the more practical Alger books."
Hm. Dangerous books. That notion appeals to me.
Capitalism should never trump history...but I am not overly surprised.
I am a bit mixed on the classics I've read, I've loved some, and hated others but like...they are labelled classics for a reason, and should be historically preserved. For example, I didn't care much for The Lost World but it captures a historical period and thought process that should be preserved/remembered. Maybe a new name would solve this? 'Culturally Relevant'...although that doesn't flow off the tongue as well.
A great video, on a super interesting topic!
Thanks! Penguin Culturally Relevant Books….no…probably not. 😅
This shifting of interests is sometimes really unfair to amazing authors. I am forever grateful that Alice Walker did the work that she did to reintroduce Zora Neale Hurston to the world after her writing fell out of popularity and into obscurity in the 30’s. Hopefully she never goes out of print again!
Really neat topic, good video! I liked the joke about Henry James lol
I read Jack London! I've read lots of his fiction and some of his nonfiction and letters.
One of Nassim Taleb’s books talks about a study of how long works remain in print. It found that if a book had been in print for x years, there was a 50% chance that it would remain in print for x more years.
Here are some questions I’m not sure about: Is the author classic? Or particular works? With Hemingway, I think it’s pretty clear that The Sun Also Rises and the short stories are classics (especially stories like A Clean Well Lighted Place). But what about The Green Hills of Africa, or Islands in the Stream? Same goes with Melville: if Mardi or Pierre is a classic, my guess it’s only because of the tidal pull of Moby Dick. At the extreme, I think it’s safe to say that Aristotle’s Dialogues are no longer classics, no matter how much Cicero admired them (to be considered a classic, the work probably at least exist).
I think the best definition of a classic is that it is a work of enduring merit. Endurance is relatively easy to measure, but it may become irrelevant in the internet age. It now seems like everything might be able to endure, and we might one day be talking about the classic TH-cam posts of Roger and that other guy. As for merit, that’s a bit more slippery and culturally defined - so we might use popularity, critical reception, scholarly appreciation, use in schools, or stated influence on other authors as proxies for it.
Personally, I hesitate to call anything a classic that was written after 1959 (the year I was born). That’s probably part of my insistence that I’m not old yet, despite what anyone else might say. And a classic book is one whose reputation basically hits you in the face. The idea of an unknown or lost classic seems like an oxymoron to me.
Henry James......zzzzzz😂😂😂
😴
The Turn of the Screw still shreds and rocks hard.
Thank you for a very intelligent and thought-provoking video. Our household owns hundreds of books and I do not want them recycled after my death. I tell my descendants that many of these books may no longer be in print in the future, or may exist only in bowdlerized versions (cf current debate about Roald Dahl). A series on out-of-print "classics" would be nice.
Interesting video Michael. I've read The Purple Land and I think BookTime with Ryan has made a video or two about it. I'm slowly ploughing my way through The Mysteries of Paris at the moment and I'm really enjoying it. It's a shame that Penguin don't at least make them available as ebooks or print on demand, still I suppose many of them you can get through Gutenberg or Delphi.
thanks
It's not so much that the writers of the Penny Dreadfuls are (or will be) considered present (or potential future) classic authors...it's the Penny Dreadful itself - its influence, its forms and development - that is the important thing. The influence of the Penny Dreadful as an early genre on future Horror and Supernatural and Thriller writers is the key to the longevity of some of its most important works: Varney the Vampire, The Mysteries of Paris, The String of Pearls, et al. So there.
Never heard of John o hara. I'm from Manchester UK. But will now check him out thanks 😊
O'Hara was very popular in the United States in the 50]s but for some reason American Critics didn't like him, possibly because he was successful. Recently, American critics seemed to have embraced him and his reputation is rising. You cannot trust the critics.
@@frankmorlock9134 Some books seem to disappear and then are found again by critics years later, such as Revolutionary Road or Ask The Dust...
I can think of a time when Moby Dick falls off the list of classics. It would be a shame, but it could happen.
Who reads James Fenimore Cooper nowadays ?
Cooper is a great writer despite Mark Twain's opinions.
I’ll be reading him relatively soon.
When Classics become public domain and turn up in Project Gutenberg they can be read a lot even if not printed. Paper book lovers may never die off completely but what will happen in 50 years?
Great topic. Similarly 1984 should be a classic still, but there is a movement to remove it.
I enjoyed your episode. A classic for me is not dependent on time or some publisher's estimated consensus of what is classic. Literature tends to speak for itself.
You need a Derby or a Homburg for such a classy post.
I’ll work on getting the proper hats for future videos.
Henry James is one of my favorite authors!
Sorry I’m so tough on James!
Speaking of classics, Roger still has my copy of “Peyton Place”!
He probably won’t give it back either. That guy!
I don’t know if Signet is currently printing War and Peace. Maybe the Ann Dunnigan translation is considered passé.
Why would it be considered passé?
@@ThatReadingGuy28 I don’t think it’s passé. I just wonder why Signet is not currently printing it. It’s supposed to be a very readable translation.
I read Jack London a lot. I love his stuff. The Star Rover is really great -- it's all a guy in a straight-jacket tripping through previous lives in his own mind. Amazing book.
And Thomas Ligotti should be classic. That guy is AMAZING.
Interesting topic. I wonder if there is a rough number of classics that society can deal with and if when new books come in they push some out?
It feels like having too many books labelled as “classic” risks devaluing the term.
In my defence, I never said W&P wasn’t a classic, just that it was boring AF 😂
That’s true, you didn’t! But boring!? No way! All that drawing room action! I could read that book another ten times.
Maybe a classic is a story that speaks to people through time and is re-invented for each generation, such as Shakespeare?
Of course jack London is still classic. he was on Star Trek!!!
He was quite a diverse writer though. he has some work of science fiction or post-apocalypse stuff that I seem to feel has had some renewed interest in recent years, due to the popularity of post-apocalyptic fiction and dystopias. I'm thinking of The Iron heel and that novella where most of the world's population dies of a plague -- forget the name now.
Hello! Hudson's The Purple Land is still in print in Argentina and Spain as La tierra purpúrea, but I wouldn't say it's considered a classic, just read with the respect given to a work published more than 100 years ago 🤔
"Moby Dick" did not go swimmingly at first.
Just a fluke it was successful eventually 😅
I consider the works of James Oliver Curwood to be classics. (Damn good books.) I think you should do a segment on them.
Ah the Purple Land, that could be mistaken for the private estate where Prince had his recording studio.
Prisoner of Zenda might have fallen from favour with Penguin Classics but its still available to buy.. probably because its .. a classic.
I always considered Classics to be older works, like an antique as opposed to vintage, not necessarily popular modern works but some of them muscled in on the fun Homer and the Brontes were having. I guess if you can't justify another print run then its retire to the vault to be dusted off when the world remembers you enough to make a shilling or two.
We hope that abandoned classics will appear on Project Gutenberg.
I checked: _The Purple Land_ is available on Project Gutenberg.
Lord Dunsany is on Project Gutenberg.
Henry James is available in Library of America (and Project Gutenberg).
I would think Hemingway is "safe".
John O'Hara is helped by his novels being made into films.
Jack London was a popular leftist radical, which explains some of his popularity today.
I wish, I hope, that William Faulkner would find his way to the vault, but I'm not holding my breath.
Don Quixote has been a Classic much longer than War and Peace.
I read a bunch of Jack London last year on Kindle. I like his work especially his short story collections. Eventually I will buy all of his books in print.
You're spot on with the London v Lovecraft comparison, and Robert E Howard. John O'hara - who's that ? 🤭 Lord Dunsany's problem is his name. The publishing house needs to change it up a bit. Coolio Dunsany - now that would sell much better 😉 What can I say I'm an ideas man.
Or maybe his full name ..it just rolls off the tongue with a little practice: Edward John Moreton Drax Plunkett, 18th Baron of Dunsany.
Good suggestion, Larry!
I think it may have been best if the definition of classics was books written during the classic period i.e. ancient Greece and Roman. Otherwise a classic is too ill define of a term. The Disney corporation calls every movie they make a classic (and a lot of people buy it despite the House of the Mouse producing a lot of crap over the years.) It's just to nebulous a term. Some classics are really polarizing like The Great Gatsby which is really a love it or hate it book. The popularity of certain writers changes overtime. Shakespeare's plays were popular with the masses but looked down upon by the elites. (All plays were by many in the Elizabethean Age.) Dickens was hated by many in the early 20th century. This has all changed.
Shame about London. He was a really good writer.
But even Greek and Roman classics were not all readily available. Anybody ever heard of Nonnus and his Dionysiaca ?
@@frankmorlock9134 Wikipedia has heard of Nonnus and his great epic poem. Whether Wiki can be trusted to always tell the truth about a subject is another matter...
Is it weird if Roger's eyes move?
Well…he doesn’t have eyes…so…
Until this video, I never realized I wanted to read about women in captivity. Too bad it's out of print! As always, nice tie; I really should get me one of those.
It is a great tie! Gifted by a person of exceptional taste.
John O'Hara is terrific, isn't he? Appointment ... is excellent. Michael, have you read Emile Zola? Most of his stuff is terrifically enjoyable.
No, and I should!
@@michaelk.vaughan8617 I suggest L’Assommoir (1877) or La Bête Humaine (1890). Both are available in Oxford World Classic editions and of course, Penguins. Zola doesn't skimp on realism or serious topics. Don't expect a happy ending. I got on a Zola kick a few years ago and quickly ran through 10. Easily one of the best writers of the 19th Century.
For public domain 'classic' works, reprint houses have to compete with online resources, which are much cheaper, less environmentally damaging, and more convenient for many people. (Especially those who are not yet convinced that e-goblins are being sent round the intertubes at round at night to secretly edit our ebooks. 🙂)
And now with AI resources you can have a chat with a bot about the book afterwards, or use it it to check unfamiliar words and phrases; so the added value elements in traditionally published books are becoming irrelevant too.
Just you wait! Those e-goblins will get you!
I'm sure there was an Akkadian writer in 2250 BC who said to his friends, "These clay tablets are classics, they'll never be out of production". Tastes change, texts are lost in part or whole, language evolves and a society moves on.
You also raise that philosophical question about the nature of creation: if a text (or painting or sculpture or whatever) no longer has a physical representation, does it still exist? My view is that it does because once a work has been created, it cannot be uncreated. But if no-one can access it then its value to humanity is decidedly lessened.
Another aspect of this discussion is adaptation of a text into other media: if a movie based on a near-forgotten book is released, then the source material will likely undergo a renewal of interest to some degree. Just imagine if Mike Flanagan adapted William Hope Hodgson's "The Night Land", surely that would generate interest in what is an almost forgotten text (a classic for some but not for others, mainly those who have tried to wade through its archaic language and failed).
If you want to read a relevant Jack London book, check out "The Iron Heel".
I will read that eventually.
@@michaelk.vaughan8617 It's written a little unconventionally, but it is very prescient.
Penguin published books because they were classics. They did not make those books classics. They don't stop being classics because Penguin stop publishing them. In this modern age of print on demand I don't know what's stopping Penguin for keeping the slow sellers in print that way. Also, if they know full well that Oxford have it in print, and it's not a big seller, they may just be happy to let Oxford have it to themselves.
One should also take into account that Penguin Random House are not the same as Penguin. They were bought out by big business, and big business cares a lot more about profit than they do historical, or literary importance.
As to John O'Hara, I confess I'd never even heard of him before I saw either you, or Steve Donoghue mention him in videos.
I'm a huge fan of Jack London, albeit I haven't read him In decades.
To some extent. I don't think anyone should be considered a classic until they've been dead for at least 50 years! 😉
I like the dead ☠️ for 50 years rule.
Regarding Eugene Sue(1804-1857). I don't know why you think Sue lacked literary merit. He was the first, and arguably the best, practitioner of the serialized novel. His plots were sensational, but they work. He is considered one of the ablest depicters of character and I think that is true. His characters are very believable. He depicts memorable characters from every social level, but especially the lower classes. He was very radical for his time--an open, ardent socialist. He was also anticlerical in The Wandering Jew. In his personal life, a bit of a dandy. His books sold very well. He was more popular than Dumas.
Publication of his works in English seems to have been deliberately sabotaged. During the latter part of the 19th century and early 20th century he continued to be published in English but only because some socialist group subsidized their publication.
I translated the play made from The Mysteries of Paris by Goubaux and Beudin who did a wonderful job with it. It's a monumental melodrama.
You can blame Steve Donoghue for the Sue bashing! I do really want to read that book. It will come after I finish Varney, probably.
Also, Ligotti... So great. Head and shoulders above almost any horror writer working these days.
The manor is looking especially stately today.
Roger classes up the joint.
Hey Michael, have you read any of Richard Laymon’s novel or anthology? If you have, then would you like to share your view of his novels anthology?
Well, I’m not his biggest fan to be honest.
Interesting video. I guess maybe "classic" is just in the eye of the beholder.
Cursor Effect, is what I call this. At any given time, the reading public, or society at large, has room for only so much stuff. Once at capacity - yes, it varies person to person, sure - any new item inevitably bumps out an older one. Hence, once-classics becoming OOP classics, ex classics, forgotten classics.
Further exacerbating this corrosion of collective memory, some books remain in the classic, or popular, or discussed, or remembered zones of mind only so long as they remain pertinent to a given society. Some books have perennial appeal, others fall from grace and favor.
Some of those latter can and will be rediscovered. Resurgence of interest leads to swelling popularity and, as often, swollen faces due to the beating taken from retro-critics bent on suppressing such round-file upstarts. How dare they un-crumple themselves?
Cursor moves along, highlighting only so many at a time, new ones entering, old ones shoved out the back to bounce on history's tarmac. C'est la biblio-vie.
That's a good point. I once read a study that approached politics from a mental circuit point of view. Most people, even the smartest, can only keep a maximum of 16 things on their mind at one time. More than that and it's an overload both for individuals and society. a new hot topic displaces an old one. Remember Julius Caesar, who was a bit of a show off, dictating letters to several scribes at once. (I believe the number was around 16, but I decided to check and most sources say 2 or 4. I'm sure I read a much higher number. ) Also, for example in designing dials for pilots to check in planes, the number is usually limited.
In years to come 50 Shades of Grey will be seen as a classic.....no, I'm joking, it wont be.
I don't see why not. Whatever its literary merit, it is massively culturally significant (emerging from fanfic to become the fastest selling paperback ever in the UK) and fostering the mainstream publication of erotic fiction. In an increasingly censorious literary climate '50 Shades' is a beacon of hope for the future of free expression!
It definitely will
Thomas Ligotti I feel, deserves his place in the "Classic" pantheon, and I'm fairly sure he will be celebrated a lot more decades from now, he is the closest America has got to a modern Kafka albeit with a Lovecraft twist. There is something about his work that sticks in mind for months after I've read him.
Totally agree, even though his work is fairly uneven, but when he is great he is as great as HPL, EAP etc
There are more questions than answers aren't there!
Definitely!
Gosh just bought new copy of The Great Gatsby the other day and was thinking about F. Scott fell out of style....
I think ALL authors will be “pruned” and only one or two works being accounted “true classics”. For instance I used to LOVE John Buchan but I find his anti-red rhetoric and imperial gung-ho ness impossible these days. I don’t think anything will dethrone Thirty Nine Steps! But the rest? I just re-read Sickheart River which I would account a classic and still VERY readable, but I think it was never accounted a classic.. and never forget in the Nineties Penguin deleted ALL of Plato “cos it didn’t sell enough”!!! Interesting talk.
I always view a classic as a work that is of historic significance but in the end it's more down to personal taste
Schools and universities are also responsible for putting a lot of good books and authors in the shade. When books are on the curriculum, that means 5hey are probably available to buy, they are being read and are out there in the public arena. I recently dragged out my copy of Thucydides which I studied at school. I suppose its on Gutenberg but anyone younger than me will never be taught Thucydides.
In the end like lots of things it is all subjective, pretty much.
I need to dig up what I have from Thomas Ligotti. I bought a number of things in the 90's because authors were name dropping him in magazine interviews but actually never read any of them. I need to rectify that one day.
Jack London was forced on me way to much from probably 4th to 8th grade. We seemed to take some long portions of the school year to cover him. Had various school field trips to his museum in Glen Ellen. His name is all over the San Francisco bay area and I see his face (rather body in a swim garment at that) just about everyday because of a billboard advertising for supposedly a place that was among his favorites in the area. Never knew his views though. They didn't cover that.
I’ve seen that billboard!
It's sounds like a lot of manure was thrown around that "garden"!!
Is Penguin weeding their garden with Round-Up?? And is Jack London relevant....? I am currently reading "The Iron Heel" which I had never heard of until recently on booktube. Hmm... he's writing about how fascism might take hold in the US. Relevant?? I wonder.
I still need to read The Iron Heel.
Enjoyable review. I don't think I will ever read any more Henry James after The Turn of the Screw. Maybe a few short stories. I read lots of old fantastic fiction and some new stuff, but old "classics?" Probably will never read Silas Marner or Elmer Gantry. I am reading Moby Dick and Earth Abides right now. I love Dickens and Twain. I guess a classic is a matter of individual taste but I don't think that is the true intent of the term. Befuddling.
Ran into a DVD cover today: Where the Crawdads Sing. Intriguing premise. My sister told me to read the book. In the movie, the hillbilly girl who raises herself in a swamp looks like The Devil Wears Prada instead of a hillbilly girl who raises herself in a swamp. I will check out the book first.
SILAS MARNER is well worth reading. Enjoyed it.
I have a copy of Silas Marner. I do need to read it.
11:47 are you having narcoleptic fits? Just concerned! Keep well.
Morrissey's autobiography is a bona fide classic, apparently. XD
Wondering if there is any particular reason or reasons why America does not appear to be a nation of gardeners?! which is how it appears to me.
?
@@michaelk.vaughan8617 okay, i appreciate it
You approached the answer at one point. It's all moot. Once the fascist "sensitivity readers" get done, all the classics will cease to exist anyway, replaced by wan and idiotic reflections of what they once were. They've moved on to Agatha Christie now -- huzzah. All hail the sensitivity readers! Thank you for saving us! They're coming for REH, Michael.
They’re coming for everything.
Does anybody over o i dont know... maybe 21? Still read jack kerouac ?
I won't stand for this Jack London slander. "Personal views" aside, he was an excellent author and is still fairly well-known even outside the anglosphere. Love his short stories. Great video tho!
Saying Jack London was a racist isn’t slander. It’s just a statement of fact. That has nothing to do with his writing talent. I find it interesting that London never catches the heat for his racism that Lovecraft does. It seems to me that London, great writer that he was, doesn’t have the cultural relevance that Lovecraft has.
If everyone in the World had a copy of say The Three Musketeers and therefore didn't need to buy a copy, the sales would stop. Does that mean The Three Musketeers is no longer a classic? No, it just means Penquin will go out of business.
Really like your channel!
I apologize in advance for being this guy (the petty and irritating commenter), but it may be better to look directly at us, as opposed to the camera
Great topic! Hey Michael, it seems like you're interacting less with your OG BookTube commenters these days. Have you left us for your Discord fans?
I’m just way, way behind on the comments due to time constraints. Sorry about that. I’ve been sadly absent from Discord as well. I barely got this video out!
@@michaelk.vaughan8617 Thanks for answering! 🙂
I fear that, in the next 10 years, the term classic is going to be pruned of a LOT of works. There's going to be a parting from "dead white male" authors, especially those who have written even a single word that can be considered counter to what people are pushed to embrace today. Sadly, that'll include your friend Lovecraft and would also keep out the worth Robert E. Howard - mighty thews is clearly something that could trigger something like swooning and we can't have that!
Nonsense. That's not happening and will not happen.
1984 is on a banned list. So is Huckleberry Finn!!
That seems like an extreme situation. I doubt it will come to that but I guess you never know.
@@michaelk.vaughan8617 It was a little tongue-in-cheek there, and I hope a line gets drawn eventually to stop all the madness. The fact that it is even happening is shocking to me.
Bound to increase sales then.@@jaykauffman4775
Henry James a cure for insomnia?
Definitely.