I'd like to see eminence as a DOWNSIDE. Give a commander abilities that are a bit too powerful for it's mana cost, but a downside that applies all the time. That'll really encourage you to get your commander on the battlefield as quickly as possible.
The problem with this might be that the downside does not affect the deck? Sure its a deckbuilding challenge then, but like Codie, those can be broken still
Saaaame! I built a Thantis deck a while ago, a friend has an infinite combats Najeela deck, my cousin mostly plays Yuriko and another friend has a super duper strong Edgar Markov deck (which he likes to say that it's underpowered because you can just wrath the board). Cheating mana costs or those commanders that are easy to make value with, I consider, have been a great mistake; just like Chulane (have played it) and Korvold (a friend has a Food matters deck which gains SO MUCH VALUE for nothing).
I’m glad I am not the only person that loved Thantis. Building a deck around it was vastly different to my other decks and I feel like it made me grow as a commander player.
I've been thinking about building her. Would you happen to have a decklist? I'd love to take a look at it for some ideas and inspiration. Thanks. Dave.
I was planning on building a Thantis spider tribal deck but after much thought I felt she was better as a forced combat deck and Ishkanah was the spider tribal deck I went with
I love Thantis as a forced combat commander. I pair it with goad and boast mechanics. It plays like a control deck in some ways in that forcing everyone to attack messes up their strategies. I lose with it quite a bit, but it's still very fun to play!
We've had the exact same discussion about Eminence in my playgroup. Overall, I think the consensus is that we'd rather not see it again, because you can't interact with it, and it adds value for no cost no matter what the ability is.
Eminence is one of those things where it could come back in a "we've learned a lesson and pulled back" sort of way; similar to how Partner was way more balanced and subsequently more diverse as mono-color creatures in Commander Legends. Speaking of which, Eminence and Partner are pretty similar in one particular way, which is that it can scale up a deck's potential in a way that is extremely difficult to interact with, since it's happening in the Command Zone and really is a pre-game decision; and I don't think any of us want things directly interacting with the Zone. I think Inalla (bias here, she was my very first pre-con) is actually a good example of Eminence working as intended. She's making tokens like Edgar and paying off tribal play, but does so for an investment of resources and exists as a temporary buff for that investment. Her play patterns are far more reasonable if also lower powered. Someone else in the comments also had the idea that future Eminence commanders should only work in the Command Zone, which would cause the pilot to have to choose what abilities to leverage. That might ultimately lead to commanders not being cast at all, but frankly how often is Edgar Markov leaving the Command Zone as is? It could be interesting space to explore.
Eminence works but no with such powerfulls effects, Ur-dragon works fine because helps a tribal of big mana cost enter faster, like morothon. With Inalla I would say or pay 2 instead of 1 or just put a limit to the number of tokens, just to make her less combo aggresive, but she is ok. Arahbo just gives a buff which is too big, +1/+1 to a cat would be fine, even a counter instead and be like a cat hadana's climb , or +2/+0, the thing is that on early turns you are hitting harder than, for example Ur-dragon, or just as hard as a kaalia deck. And Edgar doesn't feel like a vampire at all, maybe give to target vampire like Arahbo some ability like first strike and put a +1/+1 counter if a creature that received damage by it died that turn, something that vampires do in mtg
Eminence might not be fundamentally broken, but it fundamentally removes your need to cast your commander. Want to support a tribe? Just make a good commander in that tribe that I actually want to cast.
I DO want things that interact with the zone. Sure, I might not want OTHERS interacting with my zone, but there are commanders you can’t/shouldn’t cast from the command zone, and I would like ways to pull them out.
I like eminence, but there has to be some sort of a cost to getting the bonus effect. Things like Edgar just make you want to not want to cast Edgar, because he's just so better as something sitting in the command zone that your opponents can't interact with. Even if the cost was 1 or 2 mana per token, that would be something that you have to take into account when casting your vampires, instead of just getting the free value each time you cast a Vampire.
I came here to say exactly this. Make it cost 2 while he is in the zone, and cost 1 or be free when he is in play. Helps stops the early game craziness and rewards you for being able to reliably keep him on the field(more than the already attacking bonus)
I actually quite like eminence, I just think it needs to be fairly weak or on very expensive commanders so there is incentive to actually cast your commander. Either that or have the eminence do a little thing in the command zone and get MUCH better on the battlefield
Interesting that Edgar is his biggest mistake. In our EDH meta it's one of the few creature aggro decks that is viable simply because of the ability to bounce back. Theres so much aggro hate, removal, stax, and combo that few creature based decks are functional.
@@yosoyyod2001 But do people even want aggro in the format? Isn't it about durdling around, doing your big plays? How is beating them down in a few turns any better then just Armageddoning them?
@@testthewest123 its way better since the problem with armaggedon is the little interaction you could bring againts it. they just cast a 4 mana spell and from there the game becomes miserable. you really compare that to try to out aggro 120 points of life with 1/1 tokens? even the best vampire lords make them 3/2 at best. with all the boardwipes, blockers etc playing aggro its being at a notable disadvantage from the very biginning. not comparable to armaggedon by any means.
Thoughts about eminence? It's always free. It can't be interacted with ever and you do nothing to earn it. I guess you don't consider life total or +1/+1 counters to be resources but I definitely do, and eminence takes a game about resource management and sequencing and says "just kidding, those things don't matter"
@@snakeman830 I made a Gyrus deck a few days ago, playing Jund Tokens. The reason it's my commander is because the alternatives, Korvold or Prossh, are both too strong for the casual power level I'm aiming for.
But, would you rather see more lands matter stuff in the Windgrace deck and then, a few months later, see Thantis headline his own precon with another combat encouraging commander and a spider tribal commander as back ups along with a bunch of great cards that support Thantis' play style?
My first commander was Ishkanah, then replaced by Thantis, and I have to say thank you for a wonderful spider commander that has always brought me back to play at my LGS!
my favorite creature card type is wurm. i would love for there to be more wurms in the game as well as good wurm commanders and/or ways to get out wurms easier
Wurms as you know are dragons cursed to lose their wings and other appendages, as opposed to actually being giant worms, so... Reproduction is a little difficult and they're all remnants from an ancient war that I believe Bolas won if I remember correctly
so i agree with all of the reasonings you gave. i felt like "Surveil" was used TOO much in Innistrad: Midnight Hunt. it showed up on 4 cards. now that's NOT saying i wouldn't want it, i feel like it would be a "mirrored Evergreen ability" that from the set you release it; it WONT' show up with Scry (atleast for STANDARD) and note it as a "Scry or Surveil set" at the start of the set spoiler season. that would stop the confusion of "Scry or Surveil"
I feel like every time the rules of commander have been bent it has always ended with mistakes. Edgar Markov, Derevi, Yuriko, Thrasios/Tymna/Smasher. Honorable mention to Companions trying to put commanders in Standard.
@@gamermancrygamer9461 No, but they are saying that powerful partners in 2 colors were problematic. Vial Smasher is just the choice of card to go with Thrasios to get the sans-white deck with the partners.
Talking about the needs of the set was actually a pretty cool aspect of design most players don't think about, so that was nice to hear. About Eminence, i think all of the original four suffer from being "good stuff your opponents can't interact with" that no matter how small, still feels bad. Maybe if the Eminence effect was a downside you could combat it with the creature on the battlefield (like paying life but the Commander has lifelink), or if it build up something your Commander could only use on the field (like experience counters), it would be better. The crazy thing is though, that no matter the mistake, it will most likely always find a fan lol. I love Yuriko because i can use cards that ask of you to cast your Commander multiple times, and hell, i play Storm, so i can't be too mad about certain design mistakes, but I'm glad to see you being so open about them. Amazing video as always!
You should ask a judge to confirm or deny what I'm about to say. I don't think Yuriko works with cards that ask for you to cast your commander multiple times. Her Ninjitsu abilities are abilities. When you use them, you are not casting your commander. You are using a spell's effect to bring her out. The spell's effect is her own, but it is still an effect bringing her out not a cast.
I love videos like this, because this isn't just a list of your mistakes, it's a list of the lessons you learned. Hearing about what your learned and would do differently now is so cool. Honestly I would love to see Commander Ninjitsu with the keyword errated comeback in neon dynasty, but i understand prob abit to late to be wish listing stuff like that lol
At our LGS we play two versions of EDH with Commanders, mostly for Eminence, but also for extra fun. (We prefer #1) 1] Face-down Commander: When the game begins, the commander is face-down in the command zone. You do not show it to the other players until you cast it. (At end of your game you still reveal it just to be fair that the cards in the deck are same color identity.) While there, it has ZERO effect on the game until it is cast from the CZ and put into play and players cannot "prepare" for your commander until it is cast. Imitates the effect of it still in your library and you have not drawn it yet, except you are allowed to look at it any time while it is face down in CZ. When it dies or goes back to the CZ, it always goes in Face UP, so eminence will now trigger. 2] Close to above, with Commander still face up in CZ, and Eminence effect cannot trigger until AFTER it has been brought into play successfully the first time. (Countering the card or other effects that prevent it from coming into play count towards this.) Slightly different, but still effective for those people without worrying about abusing Eminence. I.E acts as if the card has not "been drawn" and played.
Fun combo: Yuriko and Phyrexian Altar. One of the "bad" things about ninjas is, how do you get their ninjitsu off again after the first time? Well, attack with Ornithopter for example. After someone doesn't block your 'Thopter and before damage, sacrifice Yuriko to Altar for U, then spend a B to reurn Ornithopter and hit with Yuriko.
I'm really loving these reflections on commander products! Please keep them coming! Side note: I'm guessing that everyone in the comments saying they like eminence has an eminence commander. I really don't like the design space, and this is coming from someone with a Yuriko deck that I don't play anymore. If you can't interact with it than it is effectively just changing the rules of the game.
I think eminence has the potential to be made in a balanced and interesting way, but the closest thing I think you’ve come to that is Inalla and the urdragon. Arahbo, oloro(who technically doesn’t have eminence but he essentially does), and Edgar, like you said, give access to resources with minimal effort.
Big take away from this? Cards designed for commander need extra care given the context of the format. I'm glad your team listens to feedback and tries to compensate for mistakes. Keep it up Gavin!
I liked Eminence and I feel it has a lot of room to grow. Edgar was just over the line. Having to pay an exta '1' like Inalla, or having the tokens come in with haste and exile at end of turn would have kept it in check.Better luck next time Gavin!
What about for Edgar Markov, "Whenever you cast your first vampire on YOUR TURN, you create a 2/2 black vamp"? This way it slows down the creation while making the token a bit better then just a 1/1.
You are aware Inalla is much more broken than Edgar, right? You have to pay 1 but you get a copy, not a 1/1 basic token. It doesnt seem much at surface but the ceiling here is so much higher. So much Inalla is a top tier cEDH commander and can abuse multiple combos because of that.
The thing is, inalla is the main offender for being overtuned, not markov. I don't know if its because her deck was tbad, but inalla really is alot more powerful than markov is.
@@SirGrimLockSmithVIIIWhy does that really matter? Alot of the strongest CEDH commanders are cheaper than markov, does that make markov better then them?
Great video and great humility, Gavin. For me it's easier to learn card design when a designer improves an already existing card and shares the thougths behind those changes.
Eminence can definitely be done correctly. It should be good enough that it's just a nice little bonus when you can no longer afford commander tax, but not so good that it dissuades you from casting them at all.
Eminence that scales with how many times you've casted your commander. If you never cast you get a weak effect but if your commander has been killed multiple times it still provides some value since you may not have enough mana to recast it in a game.
I don't regret Thantis! Though I don't own it, it is my favorite commander of all times! It could have been good support for spidders, but it's the WARWEAVER ^^ I thank you for making her real!
Good morning, Gavin! I’d say that mechanics that mess with the rules of commander should be a scarcity, but when done right can be a lot of fun! My personal though on Edgar Markov’s eminence ability would be “Whenever one or more vampires you control deal combat damage, put a +1/+1 counter on each vampire you control that didn’t attack this turn.” This allows for an ability the provides lots of value while not being too overwhelming to play against and that doesn’t provide an engine from the command zone with things like extra combats. I’d also change it so the “Whenever you cast a vampire creature spell, create a 1/1 black vampire creature token” ability was when he was on the battlefield instead of the attack trigger. This would give him a similar powerful potential, but limit it to when he’s actually out, giving opponents a way to keep him under control. What do you think?
I actually really like eminence, but like partners it was not quite balanced when it came out. Having said that mono-color partners are amazing (please please make more) and I think a new take on eminence would be fine.
I like eminence because it gives you the option to not use your commander but still have some of its abilities active, that you probably built the deck around. I would love to see it again in some future sets!! ofc maybe make the emince abilities a little less strong but still its a nice mechanic!
Well that's the problem with eminence. You get free stuff, which is just unfair to your opponents. And while not every Eminence is broken, there will always be Edgar Markov, which was wrong design choice and I dread they make another one.
My only issue with Thrantis is that making a Tangarth “lets have everyone attack” deck seems silly when Thrantis does it with less hoops and providing a 3rd color (which crucially now includes some Rakdos cards from D&D). Do I want to build something technically inefficient or something where the strategy is handed to me.
I love my Edgar Markov deck, it's definitely the most tuned up and powerful of my ~15 edh decks. A few possible fixes I could think of maybe, "this first time you cast a vampire each turn, create a 1/1 vampire token" "whenever you cast a vampire, each opponent loses 1 life and you gain 1 life"
Considering we've had the Companion-errata, is there any reason you can't errata Commander Ninjutsu? It's not like the reminder text specifically says that you don't have to pay Commander Tax so I'd say it wouldn't be too confusing. I have a Yuriko-deck myself and while I obviously enjoy not having to pay the tax, I could live with it being implemented. As for eminence... I'm just gonna say please don't.
@Todd Packer It's not affecting my playgroup but Gavin thinks it's a mistake and I could easily see the RC being on board with the change, too. You can rule 0 the tax away, too.
I love eminence! I built Edgar and The urdragon right away when they were released. I also built the cat deck up and gifted it to a friend and recently I built a second urdragon deck for my partner's daughter. All that being said, I don't think it should be used again. In all honesty you probably should have stopped after Oloro was created but I'm glad you didn't. Keep up the good work, your Eminence!
If commander ninjutsu gets an errata I guarantee majority of players that play yuriko will drop her. It’s half the reason people play her tbh. Without it she would actually be very bad. The issue is that people don’t play against yuriko correctly she gets hosed hard by a lot of cards that anybody can play at a low opportunity cost. Any dark steel mutation type effect, pithing needle, containment priest, pressuring the yuriko players life total.
@@Evrybdygets1 Even with the errata she would be good. Dark Steel Mutation style effects work, but they're basically only good for this specific thing. That's not a low opportunity cost. Pithing Needle you're playing a card to shut off just that one specific card, and they can still just cast Yuriko. Containment Priest is a super strong card and half the decks at the table will probably try to remove it quickly because it hates on what they're doing. If you're one of those decks, Containment Priest isn't looking super hype. Saying that Yuriko isn't an issue because Containment Priest exists is just dumb.
@@Ninjamanhammer that’s not what I said though. I said there is counterplay to her and gave a few examples. She’s far from the most oppressive thing in the format. You can very easily go over the top of a yuriko player with creature beats because majority of the creatures are x/1s. -1 -1 counters literally make it so she can’t do anything. She is a tempo deck and struggles in stalled board states filled with creatures that are almost always better than what she has on board stat wise. I disagree that she would still be good. Her strength comes from the fact that she can always be played for 2 mana and that she is essentially a dark confidant in the command zone. She actually scales really well and can be made to fit different power levels. Now if people are playing a cedh version of yuriko in a lower powered pod then that is a whole other issue and has more to do with who you’re playing with than the card itself being an issue. You’re not being stopped from playing the game and winning through her exsanguination effect is very inconsistent unless literally nobody is running interaction and just letting her snowball.
@@Evrybdygets1 Yuriko being a bad design that goes against the point of commander and Yuriko being "the most oppressive thing in the format" are two very different things. Literally no one said there was no counterplay to her. Also, you might need to read the card again, she triggers off any Ninja.
as a new player in mtg, what i found in edgar markov's eminence (my second deck) is great thou, i really like the philosophy of how the edgar works, he is literally a real boss here, a real commander, he literally sit on his throne for a long time, watching his army behind the scene, give his knight an army when he summoned them to battlefield, and when the time is right he will join his vampire army, boost all of them to give an opponent final blow, THATS A REALLY COOL CONCEPT, because you know........, at a first glance i thought "commander" format in mtg means you choose your king for your deck, build an army (monster, defender, some enchant artifact to support your army) around it, do some politic, and kill each other by battle, not just............. "hey before i summon my commander that make me draw bunch of card (ehem tymna), i literally summon bunch of tax spell, tutoring, cash i mean cast highly priced mana rock, and keep my counter spell to save my 2 cards combo win or infinite combo from your counter spell (and probably counter your combo piece)"
I cannot wrap my head around "Edgar is busted because it gives you additional resources for free" but seconds later "Ur-Dragon is fine because it simply reduces the cost of your dragons." Is mana not a resource?? Is reducing a cost not the same as GAINING mana???
Eminence seems like a great benefit for expensive commanders that might not hit the battlefield often. You may only play the Ur-Dragon once in a game because nine mana is a TON and ramping to it costs a lot of turns, which would leave you vulnerable (and 11 mana after it dies once is just painful). Then they have an ability that rewards getting them out. It also makes for a nice tribal bonus. I wouldn't hate it being a mechanic that came back, as I like it's idea.
I personally think Eminence as an idea isn't inherently bad, but it's something that is extremely easy to break so it has to be used with extensive care. You called out Ur Dragon as a good example and I'd agree on that!
Eminence is a neat ability, seems a little unfair to not be able to interact with but it can be nerfed in future iterations. In the Ur- Dragon is really good and not that threatening because they still come out paying 5-6 mana so not THAT explosive. Arahbo was overpowered in 1v1 commander but in multiplayer is manageable. Edgar Markov is a complete different story LOL. Limiting this kind of overpowered abilities to ONCE EACH TURN could ease the design (IMHO). Still I loved those designs, keep at it Gavin!
Honestly I think that while eminence is dangerous, all the eminence commanders rn are fine because they are so narrow - If I'm honest, vampires really need that push from edgar to create an actual incentive for playing them. And even then I have a hard time remembering when the Edgar player at my lgs last won. Yuriko sidestepping cmdr tax and najeela going "oops I'm infinite" as well as just randomly being 5c are definitely more problematic.
Is it weird that I like Edgar's eminence in its current form? Maybe a fixed version would generate a 1/1 vamp when a non-token vamp dies? The lifelink idea would fit well with Licia.
Boreas charger should have been half rounded up into the battlefield. That way it's strength would scale relative to how behind you are. I think one change to make eminence more fair, would be to not have the eminence effect active until you have cast the card with it.
I think eminence deserves another chance. When I think about a commander/general in real world examples I literally think that they should be impactful on the battlefield but also impactful sitting in the back lines. Maybe in the future if done again you could do a small bonus if the commander is in the command zone but a bigger payoff if they are actually on the battlefield
Yuriko is just fine the way she is. I enjoy playing against her and with her. If she had a commander tax she would almost be unplayable with how much she gets killed. I hope to see some more ninjas soon! As far as eminence is concerned I like it, I don’t feel it’s too overwhelming when it’s a multiplayer format. It is troubling one vs one but for the most part commander is a social game. You typically have pods of 4 or 5 people which makes playing an aggro deck like Edgar much more balanced. If not almost impossible to win against all the board wipes
While I understand what you said about Yuriko from a game design perspective, from a player perspective, I will quickly abandon commanders that are hard to cast. Being high cost is the reason why I DON’T build them to begin with. If an entire strategy revolves around the commander’s mechanics, and if the deck stops functioning without it, it disincentivize for the main deck to be built around the command. Yuriko is efficient, but she also impose high deck building restriction that exclusively play some bad one drops that don’t see the light of day in many builds. There’s also the fact that she’s not in green. Green decks have an easier time playing expensive cards. Non green decks can’t always rely on the game going long in hopes of re casting their expensive commanders. High cost commanders are doomed to fail and collect dust and not be played. With products striving efficiency, players have less reasons to purposely build inefficiently.
I am a bit of a spike so I don't find these all to be mistakes. Love the fact that you took ownership of everything though, shows great leadership. Keen on making the game we all love my friend!
It'd help reel it in a bit, but still too much free gas most likely. Even at 1 a turn it's still so easy to turn on things like Captivating Vampire, or Bloodline keeper with a few early turn cheap vampires. If they wanted to keep it making tokens, and not be as oppresive they probably should have had it looking for a specific CMC, or attack power as a pre requisite to trigger. Like if it was looking for a vampire of cmc 4-5 or greater before it would hand you a free vampire. THen you have to work a lot harder, and sink a lot more resources into it before it starts giving you the free value instead of "Oh play this random 1 or 2 drop vampire and get a free vampire.". Even with the 1 a turn restriction by turn 4-5 you're staring at 5+ vampires. And depending what lords, or other tribal stuff they've drawn with it that's likely to be an amount of pressure you absolutely need a board wipe for or Edgar is just taking over. And even you have a wipe, if they have any team protection in hand it still may not be enough. Stuff like Flawless Maneuvers, teferi's protection, Boros Charm, Akroma's Will, Unbreakable formation, Rootborn Defenses makes it very hard to shake off vampires early pressure.
Edgar being #1 makes sense One of my friends once was playing commander and one of the players brought a deck with Edgar, Charmed Groom and Olivia, Crimson Bride as partner commanders. Since they don't have partner the person running the deck asked if they could Rule Zero it, but it was totally cool if they weren't ok with it. They could run it as an Edgar Markov deck instead. The table picked the Rule Zero'd Partners unanimously lol.
Im honestly like the design of most of these cards, and how they function personally, it makes me a little sad to head most of these mechanics wont come back because i think they open good design spaces, edgar may be a little pushed but i could see someone making clues or tresure as a cool commander. Or maybe making commander ninjitsu more expensive on the next one
One of my friends in our command group plays yuriko, and while she's fun and everybody likes her, her ability definitely makes her oppressive so he ends up being archenemy every time. Going from your own analysis of Yuriko, I'd actually argue that eminence is a bad mechanic in itself. It's something that gives extra bonuses essentially for free. Any other commander has to be played to have impact on the game. Commanders with eminence can stay safely into the command zone and still impact the game.
I love my Ur-Dragon deck and honestly he seems to be powerful but not unfair. I hope if eminence is revisited it adds some downside to not playing your commander.
I've played quite a few games against different Edgar Markov decks and never thought the eminence ability was over powered. In the last game i played against him, the Arcades deck was crazy good at rebuilding, and stuck out way more as the problem
I actually really like all the cards on the list. They’re a little pushed sure. I think the only assessment I agree with is that Najeela shouldn’t trigger off her own tokens.
I know you said it was the number one mistake, but I for one as well as many other players have enjoyed Edgar Markov. I have played vampire tribal for many years starting with Olivia Voldaren in Innistrad but she didn't really do much in regards to tribal support. Edgar IMO is way more flavorful and spot on since he is the progenitor of vampires on Innistrad and it really shows in his abilities to make more vampires and empower them later on in a game. TL;DR thank you for making Edgar Markov.
I’ve never thought eminence “shouldn’t exist” I’m also of the mindset that it should enhance resources that already present instead of giving more free resources as you said.
Love these little insights into the minds that define magic. I think the current commanders with eminence are fine, but it's not a mechanic I'd like to see again. The reason being is that it's impossible to interact with the mechanic and the player has to do nothing to very little to get a massive bonus effect. Experience counters and planeswalker emblems are similar, but a player has to at least do some work to get them/make them effective.
Hi Gavin, I feel that Eminence and the commander tax are the solution. If you make a card that has an effect from the command zone equal to the number of times you've CAST it Even if it is in the command zone...then you have the push-pull in design that is valuable. And, it also creates the subgame of "Do I want to KILL that thing or deal with it other ways so the player won't get the emenience".
Do you have to get lists like this approved by wizards? (Wondering because I think many people were hoping for a reprint of your #1 biggest regret very soon)
One of my playgroups has a rule where Eminence commanders create a token enchantment at the beginning of the game with the text of the ability, instead of a passive effect from the command zone. Still functions pretty similarly, but it allows for interaction.
Personally I think cards that reference commander in general are problematic because it’s kind of like playing a different game. For that reason Eminence is a problem for me. I have a self imposed restriction when I build decks not to use commander specific cards because they don’t feel like MtG of my youth.
Eminence is a great potential space not just for tribes, but for adding things that can alter the game in new and creative ways. For example, if you look at a non-eminence card like Gor Muldrak, Amphinologist, there is a mini-game that gets played just by his existence on the battlefield. If a card like that had Eminence, think of all of the potential play pathways that can open up. The Monarch isn't the only mini-game that can make the game more fun and interesting.
Inalla was the deck that got me into commander in 2017, while i loved the idea of wizards and etb, it was really the reanimation of wanderwine prophet that got me hooked with the deck. i still was learning complex interactions and that singlehandedly made me understand how the stack works with just a single card. now my playgroup did not enjoy playing vs a 1card wincon that could come out of nowhere at any point in the game, but i sure did. i always told the people who where new to the group that they should always keep a blocker up since i purposly didnt add evasion for the prophet, but it still works quite well. its been 5 years since then and i havnt played inalla ever since bumping it up to just a full on cedh deck and it hasnt seen a game in my playgroup for 3 years yet still im targeted as a degen reanimate play :D currently i built araumi as my reanimate deck of choice for my playgroup, still tons of reaniamte affects, but i rely on araumi bringing back 3 massacre wurms or archon of cruelty's and just drain everyone rather then just killing them with a fish wizard. i think the main problem i have with inalla is that even when building for wizard tribal, it still doesn't feel enjoyable to play or play vs since using inalla eminence to the fullest always ends up with me have panharmonicon affects all over the place and venser and friends just being totally degenerate(so many bounce/draw/counter affects on wizards)... the inalla deck i want to build would be flooding the board with wizards and activating inallas burn. some intruder alarm shinanegans mabye too. however, the closest i ever got to getting that to work was because of paradox engine providing the mana(huge) plus untaps thats hard to come by in grixis. still inalla best commander and her art is just perfect 11/10
Narjeela, the Blade Blossom is the commander of my "5 color tokens" deck. The fact that she works how she does is a big part of why I chose her. I like that her ability is self-perpetuating and doubles and doubles and doubles again. If she said "non-token" she really wouldn't work as the boss for that deck. Also there is no other 5 color commander that works with tokens in any meaningful way, so I think she fills a cool niche.
Eminence is a good commander keyword and it would be nice to see more of them, but it might be better to make them either more specific effect like: the first time you do something on each turn... or more generic like reducing mana cost of a type of card or being kind of a lord for a tribe, or with once per turn effect instead of triggering every single time you do something.
I love this video and now this channel! Thank you, but I must say the love the eminence ability, it makes something at least happen as to where otherwise nothing fun happens, I love the concept.
I really like eminence for essentially the reason you mentioned. I think it has a bad reputation because of specifically edgar markov, and maybe a bit of inalla. I think that a different really cool way to design eminence would be to have the eminence effect be a weaker version of the commander's actual effect while on the battlefield. This would still promote the same type of deckbuilding around the commander, but could limit the drawback of having your commander removed in your deck that really wants, or maybe even needs, your commander on the battlefield. As a couple random examples: Maybe if you have a commander that has a pump effect for a specific tribe, that eminence ability could give +1/+0, or +0/+1 while in the command zone instead of a stronger pump such as a +2/+2 while on the battlefield. Or if a card like Urza had eminence (stay with me on this one, it's just an example lol), maybe his eminence ability would be his mana ability, but could be used once during each of your turns, rather than just being a reusable activated ability (it's an extreme example cause this ability would still be insane as an eminence effect, but hopefully it gets my idea across). It wouldn't be nearly as powerful still as actually having Urza in play, but it'd still be an effect that rewards you for playing all of these 0 cmc artifacts that otherwise don't do a whole lot. I'm a more competitive player that likes to see powerful decks that actually revolve around the commander rather than just focusing on getting as many colors in the color combination as possible and using the command zone as a place for value (hence why I despise partners, but that's a different story), and I think eminence is a really great way to create more commanders that allow players to stray away from that "4-5 color good-stuff" deck building style and build more unique decks.
I really like Eminence, and while I really like Ur-Dragon's cost reduction, I think the opt-in style of Inalla and Arahbo, where you have to pay mana to get access to it, is probably the best way to go about it. Even with Edgar, if it was "Whenever a vampire deals combat damage, you may pay 1, if you do, make a 1/1" would help a LOT in bringing it in line with the rest of the effects
I know I am a voice in a sea of noise, but I love Eminence, Inalla is one of my favorites it inspires a specific deck not just wizards but wizards with ETBs for example. It is a hard mechanic to balance but I think with the lessons you guys have learned just from Markov WOTC could make some really fun commanders with that mechanic in the future and I hope to see it!
I like Eminence! Arahbo is my favorite commander I've ever played with. It's a fun ability tthat you can apply every turn and makes playing a themed deck feel more powerful! Especially with high cost commanders, it can be hard to stay ahead of the curve when just playing a tribal deck. If you don't draw your high impact creature at the right time, you can definitely fall apart. Eminence helps you keep up for playing a more restrictive deck (restrictive because it gets better the more you commit to the theme).
I really love these videos not only do you share up and coming new magic products in fun and exciting ways but you also and very eloquently might I add share alot of your stories that are very interesting and alot of magic the gatherings history and u love the podcast episodes btw keep up the amazing work with magic and this channel ❤
Eminence is the kind of mechanic that just rewards you for something the deck wants to be doing anyway. If someone plays a Commander ONLY for its eminence effect and never wants to cast that Commander, you know the mechanic is completely wrong in its design. So to fix that it would be fine if the Commander would at least need to be played once, and then if it goes back in the Command zone, then you could have the effect to linger around.
Najeela and Edgar hit me. I was so stoked when Najeela came out, finally a warrior commander that is both aggro and cares about warriors. from the first make to 6 months into it's life I had to dismantle it for the reason you mentioned. It just became a Pseudo cEDH deck, making me the arch enemy because my 1 card engine. I never made an Edgar deck but he fell in the same category of, even if you don't have a cEDH deck, you will stomp due to the High Floor for the deck. I guess you and Token production just shouldn't mix ^.^"
Eminence is one of the biggest motivators for me to build a deck I will tweak for years to come (re: Oloro, Inalla). Keep the options just as influential but limit how broken they can be by narrowing the number of colors in the identity. Mono-color could do with a refresh and there's your nerf without holding back on the ability.
I think eminence has interesting design space, but I think my biggest issue with it is that it often incentivizes you to just not play your commander at all. If it were to come back I think that aspect would have to be looked at much more closely. Perhaps by weakening the eminence effect overall or by strengthening the effect if the commander is in play. Using Ur-Dragon as an example, maybe it's reducing dragons by 1 if in the Command Zone but 2 if on the battlefield or something along those lines.
I can see Eminence be a great mechanic if used with care. I loved your examples of giving lifelink or the +1/+1 counter on damage to players. The lifelink would make a vampire-lifegain niche viable instead of being the go-to best vampire commander with no real competition it is now. I think making Eminence function to make niches more viable is great, as long as they stay far away from being generic triggers that give you value from doing nothing special.
I really love eminence because it's more about the cards in your 99 than what's in your command zone. It seems nearly impossible to balance properly, though, so it should probably be reserved for very weak tribes or very passive effects. For example, a Sea Monsters tribe eminence ability could say, "All Kraken, Leviathan, Octopus, Serpent, Whale, Shark, Fish, Jellyfish, and Starfish creatures are also Kraken, Leviathan, Octopus, and Serpent creatures in addition to their other types. If their mana value is 5 or greater, they cost (1) less to cast."
I have and enjoy a Yuriko deck. I think the mechanic is fun enough that it would still be good with commander tax, but a big part of that deck for me is being able to take advantage of her ability to bounce the board and recover quickly. It may be unfair, but even with that, the deck is still fun to play and play against. Take comfort that the lesson learned from Yuriko didn't leave a scar 😆
Negative Eminence, number of opponents matter, more ways to interact with abilities (steal / counter / "can't" for triggered/activated abilities), more ways to interact with opponents commanders (threaten command zone, temp control to help attack other players, temp control to help defend other players)
The mechanic I loved most was the one found in Jeleva, Proshh and Marath. They became better the more you pay the commander tax, while balancing itself at the same time.
My buddy plays an Edgar deck with the oversized commander and often times he doesn't even pull the card out of his bag. Ive seen him cast it twice ever. Eminence that includes some kind of subtle drawback while it's in the command zone could be interesting.
I clicked because I saw Azra Oddsmaker in the preview, and I have such a love for that card (especially in Karazikar!) I had no idea how you could regret it. But Edgar... 10,000% I have to play against it all the time as 1/3 people I play with uses it as his primary deck, and all the guy does is spam effects like gravepact/pact of Erebos so every time one of his crappy 1/1 chump blockers dies everyone has to sacrifice. It makes it impossible to ever outscale him, and you can never gain a foothold because you'll usually have to sacrifice at least once between your turns, so you never want to cast your own commander because it will never stick. The worst part is that he acts persecuted when I then try to alpha strike him every game, as if he isn't playing an OP and oppressive commander!
I know that I am late, but I love to watch this video! And if I may, I`d like to make some observations: 1)Was Oloro the first "Eminence" commander? Yes? No? Maybe? 2) Please make new Eminence triggers/abilities in EDH! Specially with tribes ( merfolks, elfs, goblins, humans and zombies). 3) I really thought that number 1 would be Dockside Extortionist! I mean... There is an EDH era before and one after this card!! Now come it wasn´t even mention?
Eminence seems like it would work well if the card has some way opponents could avoid it from triggering, has a once per tern trigger or the commander has a "when this is on the battle field" effect so it shakes up how you are playing. The main issue with Eminence is that it would be very easy to build a deck with the intention of never getting your commander out. for example : Eminence - during the start of your upkeep you may swap day and night Eminence - when attacking, If defending opponent with no creatures, all attacking creatures gain +1/+0 till end of turn Eminence - while (name) is in the command zone all your creatures gain +0/+1 and vigilance While (name) is on the battlefield all your creatures gain +1/+0 and haste
I think Eminence could be fair, if it would only encourage or reward you for something you already have. Arahbo and Ur-Dragon are good examples, I think, although it would definetly need some restrictions, most likely making it trigger only once per turn.
I agree with you about eminence being fine as an enhancer ability. I would honestly love to see more eminence because it solves the "hey build your whole deck themed around this card so if that card isn't in play you can't do the coolest things in your deck" issue. I would really like to see more like the Ur-Dragon: its heavily costed but with an ability that benefits the tribe on their weakness (high cost) without having to be played yet, but then you actually want to play it at some point because it's second ability is even better. Markov and Inalla have stronger abilities in eminence and it causes the brokeness. There are a lot of times where playing your commander is bad, but it should not be *almost always better* to keep your commander off the field.
ya know I never thought about how the jund lands matter deck only had the planeswalker as the lands matter card. That being said I have built so many thantis/gyrus decks cause both of these cards are insane and powerful. gyrus as a commander just makes killing him better and bigger or left uncontested your blown out with value. Thantis with combat being either arch enemy now or punch me and you will take so much damage back and I won't care.
I'd like to see eminence as a DOWNSIDE. Give a commander abilities that are a bit too powerful for it's mana cost, but a downside that applies all the time. That'll really encourage you to get your commander on the battlefield as quickly as possible.
new Norin the Wary commander!?
This is a great idea
I think a mixed downside and upside could be really cool.
The problem with this might be that the downside does not affect the deck? Sure its a deckbuilding challenge then, but like Codie, those can be broken still
So why not make a card called "commander suppresion" or "supressing fire" to nullify commander abilities from outside the battlefield?
Our commander pod is now called “Gavin's Mistakes”
I AM an ur-dragon player, one of My buddies runs yuriko, another Edgar Markov.... So My table is full of gavins mistakes
Hahaha
Saaaame! I built a Thantis deck a while ago, a friend has an infinite combats Najeela deck, my cousin mostly plays Yuriko and another friend has a super duper strong Edgar Markov deck (which he likes to say that it's underpowered because you can just wrath the board).
Cheating mana costs or those commanders that are easy to make value with, I consider, have been a great mistake; just like Chulane (have played it) and Korvold (a friend has a Food matters deck which gains SO MUCH VALUE for nothing).
A friend have an ninja-deck, and everyone need to constantly keep his board empty, so no creatures can attack. Ever. Not much fun for anyone really
Have someone build Hapatra. That should teach him.
it takes some humility to admit mistakes, and it looks like you've learned something from these errors. thank you for sharing
@@GoodMorningMagic this is your yearly reminder to reflect on last year's mistakes. Because unfortunately, there have been quite some of them
I’m glad I am not the only person that loved Thantis. Building a deck around it was vastly different to my other decks and I feel like it made me grow as a commander player.
only thing id like more is if he was a spider lord in some way
I've been thinking about building her. Would you happen to have a decklist? I'd love to take a look at it for some ideas and inspiration.
Thanks.
Dave.
I was planning on building a Thantis spider tribal deck but after much thought I felt she was better as a forced combat deck and Ishkanah was the spider tribal deck I went with
I built a Thantis deck once but it wasnt quite good but I want to revisit it sometime. Jund isn't typically my colors though so its hard on me haha.
I love Thantis as a forced combat commander. I pair it with goad and boast mechanics. It plays like a control deck in some ways in that forcing everyone to attack messes up their strategies. I lose with it quite a bit, but it's still very fun to play!
We've had the exact same discussion about Eminence in my playgroup. Overall, I think the consensus is that we'd rather not see it again, because you can't interact with it, and it adds value for no cost no matter what the ability is.
It would be cool to see other designers talk about their own mistakes! Broken cards are my favorite thing to learn about.
Eminence is one of those things where it could come back in a "we've learned a lesson and pulled back" sort of way; similar to how Partner was way more balanced and subsequently more diverse as mono-color creatures in Commander Legends.
Speaking of which, Eminence and Partner are pretty similar in one particular way, which is that it can scale up a deck's potential in a way that is extremely difficult to interact with, since it's happening in the Command Zone and really is a pre-game decision; and I don't think any of us want things directly interacting with the Zone.
I think Inalla (bias here, she was my very first pre-con) is actually a good example of Eminence working as intended. She's making tokens like Edgar and paying off tribal play, but does so for an investment of resources and exists as a temporary buff for that investment. Her play patterns are far more reasonable if also lower powered.
Someone else in the comments also had the idea that future Eminence commanders should only work in the Command Zone, which would cause the pilot to have to choose what abilities to leverage. That might ultimately lead to commanders not being cast at all, but frankly how often is Edgar Markov leaving the Command Zone as is? It could be interesting space to explore.
Eminence works but no with such powerfulls effects, Ur-dragon works fine because helps a tribal of big mana cost enter faster, like morothon. With Inalla I would say or pay 2 instead of 1 or just put a limit to the number of tokens, just to make her less combo aggresive, but she is ok.
Arahbo just gives a buff which is too big, +1/+1 to a cat would be fine, even a counter instead and be like a cat hadana's climb , or +2/+0, the thing is that on early turns you are hitting harder than, for example Ur-dragon, or just as hard as a kaalia deck.
And Edgar doesn't feel like a vampire at all, maybe give to target vampire like Arahbo some ability like first strike and put a +1/+1 counter if a creature that received damage by it died that turn, something that vampires do in mtg
A mono red dragon with Eminence isn't going to break anything.
Eminence might not be fundamentally broken, but it fundamentally removes your need to cast your commander. Want to support a tribe? Just make a good commander in that tribe that I actually want to cast.
Inalla is one of the most powerful grixis commanders in cedh pods tho
I DO want things that interact with the zone. Sure, I might not want OTHERS interacting with my zone, but there are commanders you can’t/shouldn’t cast from the command zone, and I would like ways to pull them out.
I like eminence, but there has to be some sort of a cost to getting the bonus effect. Things like Edgar just make you want to not want to cast Edgar, because he's just so better as something sitting in the command zone that your opponents can't interact with. Even if the cost was 1 or 2 mana per token, that would be something that you have to take into account when casting your vampires, instead of just getting the free value each time you cast a Vampire.
I came here to say exactly this. Make it cost 2 while he is in the zone, and cost 1 or be free when he is in play. Helps stops the early game craziness and rewards you for being able to reliably keep him on the field(more than the already attacking bonus)
You've worked on so many cards that I use. It's great to see the human behind them speak his mind. Thank you for you work!
I actually quite like eminence, I just think it needs to be fairly weak or on very expensive commanders so there is incentive to actually cast your commander. Either that or have the eminence do a little thing in the command zone and get MUCH better on the battlefield
"on very expensive commanders"
Wouldn't this disincentivize casting your commander?
Exactly: should have been a 2-part ability with the latter getting stronger on the field
Have its effectiveness based on how many times you cast your commander.
Interesting that Edgar is his biggest mistake. In our EDH meta it's one of the few creature aggro decks that is viable simply because of the ability to bounce back. Theres so much aggro hate, removal, stax, and combo that few creature based decks are functional.
Exactly. Nothing to add here.
Yep, Edgar is not a mistake it's a necesity to make aggro even a little viable.
@@yosoyyod2001 But do people even want aggro in the format? Isn't it about durdling around, doing your big plays? How is beating them down in a few turns any better then just Armageddoning them?
@@testthewest123 its way better since the problem with armaggedon is the little interaction you could bring againts it. they just cast a 4 mana spell and from there the game becomes miserable. you really compare that to try to out aggro 120 points of life with 1/1 tokens? even the best vampire lords make them 3/2 at best. with all the boardwipes, blockers etc playing aggro its being at a notable disadvantage from the very biginning. not comparable to armaggedon by any means.
@@testthewest123 variety in a format is never a bad thing
Thoughts about eminence? It's always free. It can't be interacted with ever and you do nothing to earn it. I guess you don't consider life total or +1/+1 counters to be resources but I definitely do, and eminence takes a game about resource management and sequencing and says "just kidding, those things don't matter"
I’ll be real, I’d rather have not seen Gyrus over Thantis for the Windgrace deck. Love that spider.
Yeah that was my first thought too lol, why not remove Gyrus over Thantis
@@Jenkstudio97 does anyone even play Gyrus?
@@snakeman830 I made a Gyrus deck a few days ago, playing Jund Tokens. The reason it's my commander is because the alternatives, Korvold or Prossh, are both too strong for the casual power level I'm aiming for.
@@MirWasTaken There's always Sek'Kuar
But, would you rather see more lands matter stuff in the Windgrace deck and then, a few months later, see Thantis headline his own precon with another combat encouraging commander and a spider tribal commander as back ups along with a bunch of great cards that support Thantis' play style?
My first commander was Ishkanah, then replaced by Thantis, and I have to say thank you for a wonderful spider commander that has always brought me back to play at my LGS!
my favorite creature card type is wurm. i would love for there to be more wurms in the game as well as good wurm commanders and/or ways to get out wurms easier
my absolute favorite tribe. Yes, that tribe needs a lot of attention, asap lol
Wurms as you know are dragons cursed to lose their wings and other appendages, as opposed to actually being giant worms, so... Reproduction is a little difficult and they're all remnants from an ancient war that I believe Bolas won if I remember correctly
so i agree with all of the reasonings you gave. i felt like "Surveil" was used TOO much in Innistrad: Midnight Hunt. it showed up on 4 cards. now that's NOT saying i wouldn't want it, i feel like it would be a "mirrored Evergreen ability" that from the set you release it; it WONT' show up with Scry (atleast for STANDARD) and note it as a "Scry or Surveil set" at the start of the set spoiler season. that would stop the confusion of "Scry or Surveil"
I feel like every time the rules of commander have been bent it has always ended with mistakes. Edgar Markov, Derevi, Yuriko, Thrasios/Tymna/Smasher. Honorable mention to Companions trying to put commanders in Standard.
Vial Smasher isn't problematic lol.
@@gamermancrygamer9461 No, but they are saying that powerful partners in 2 colors were problematic. Vial Smasher is just the choice of card to go with Thrasios to get the sans-white deck with the partners.
Talking about the needs of the set was actually a pretty cool aspect of design most players don't think about, so that was nice to hear.
About Eminence, i think all of the original four suffer from being "good stuff your opponents can't interact with" that no matter how small, still feels bad. Maybe if the Eminence effect was a downside you could combat it with the creature on the battlefield (like paying life but the Commander has lifelink), or if it build up something your Commander could only use on the field (like experience counters), it would be better.
The crazy thing is though, that no matter the mistake, it will most likely always find a fan lol. I love Yuriko because i can use cards that ask of you to cast your Commander multiple times, and hell, i play Storm, so i can't be too mad about certain design mistakes, but I'm glad to see you being so open about them. Amazing video as always!
You should ask a judge to confirm or deny what I'm about to say.
I don't think Yuriko works with cards that ask for you to cast your commander multiple times. Her Ninjitsu abilities are abilities. When you use them, you are not casting your commander. You are using a spell's effect to bring her out. The spell's effect is her own, but it is still an effect bringing her out not a cast.
as K9 said... Yuriko is not being cast through her ninjutsu ability.
@@k9commander you are correct
I love videos like this, because this isn't just a list of your mistakes, it's a list of the lessons you learned. Hearing about what your learned and would do differently now is so cool.
Honestly I would love to see Commander Ninjitsu with the keyword errated comeback in neon dynasty, but i understand prob abit to late to be wish listing stuff like that lol
At our LGS we play two versions of EDH with Commanders, mostly for Eminence, but also for extra fun. (We prefer #1)
1] Face-down Commander: When the game begins, the commander is face-down in the command zone. You do not show it to the other players until you cast it. (At end of your game you still reveal it just to be fair that the cards in the deck are same color identity.) While there, it has ZERO effect on the game until it is cast from the CZ and put into play and players cannot "prepare" for your commander until it is cast. Imitates the effect of it still in your library and you have not drawn it yet, except you are allowed to look at it any time while it is face down in CZ. When it dies or goes back to the CZ, it always goes in Face UP, so eminence will now trigger.
2] Close to above, with Commander still face up in CZ, and Eminence effect cannot trigger until AFTER it has been brought into play successfully the first time. (Countering the card or other effects that prevent it from coming into play count towards this.) Slightly different, but still effective for those people without worrying about abusing Eminence. I.E acts as if the card has not "been drawn" and played.
Fun combo: Yuriko and Phyrexian Altar.
One of the "bad" things about ninjas is, how do you get their ninjitsu off again after the first time? Well, attack with Ornithopter for example. After someone doesn't block your 'Thopter and before damage, sacrifice Yuriko to Altar for U, then spend a B to reurn Ornithopter and hit with Yuriko.
if you already have yuriko out why would you want to ninjutsu her again?
@@lord_wyran Doing so gives her evasion. Etb/Death triggers.
I'm really loving these reflections on commander products! Please keep them coming!
Side note: I'm guessing that everyone in the comments saying they like eminence has an eminence commander. I really don't like the design space, and this is coming from someone with a Yuriko deck that I don't play anymore. If you can't interact with it than it is effectively just changing the rules of the game.
I think eminence has the potential to be made in a balanced and interesting way, but the closest thing I think you’ve come to that is Inalla and the urdragon. Arahbo, oloro(who technically doesn’t have eminence but he essentially does), and Edgar, like you said, give access to resources with minimal effort.
inalla the combo girl?
Big take away from this? Cards designed for commander need extra care given the context of the format. I'm glad your team listens to feedback and tries to compensate for mistakes. Keep it up Gavin!
I liked Eminence and I feel it has a lot of room to grow. Edgar was just over the line. Having to pay an exta '1' like Inalla, or having the tokens come in with haste and exile at end of turn would have kept it in check.Better luck next time Gavin!
What about for Edgar Markov, "Whenever you cast your first vampire on YOUR TURN, you create a 2/2 black vamp"? This way it slows down the creation while making the token a bit better then just a 1/1.
You are aware Inalla is much more broken than Edgar, right? You have to pay 1 but you get a copy, not a 1/1 basic token. It doesnt seem much at surface but the ceiling here is so much higher. So much Inalla is a top tier cEDH commander and can abuse multiple combos because of that.
The thing is, inalla is the main offender for being overtuned, not markov. I don't know if its because her deck was tbad, but inalla really is alot more powerful than markov is.
@@spudster8887 that's kinda interesting given how much cheaper Inalla's price is than Edgar.
@@SirGrimLockSmithVIIIWhy does that really matter? Alot of the strongest CEDH commanders are cheaper than markov, does that make markov better then them?
Great video and great humility, Gavin. For me it's easier to learn card design when a designer improves an already existing card and shares the thougths behind those changes.
Eminence can definitely be done correctly. It should be good enough that it's just a nice little bonus when you can no longer afford commander tax, but not so good that it dissuades you from casting them at all.
Eminence that scales with how many times you've casted your commander. If you never cast you get a weak effect but if your commander has been killed multiple times it still provides some value since you may not have enough mana to recast it in a game.
This sounds awesome actually kinda play off the older commanders that scale with how much you spend on them like prossh and marath
I don't regret Thantis! Though I don't own it, it is my favorite commander of all times! It could have been good support for spidders, but it's the WARWEAVER ^^ I thank you for making her real!
Good morning, Gavin!
I’d say that mechanics that mess with the rules of commander should be a scarcity, but when done right can be a lot of fun!
My personal though on Edgar Markov’s eminence ability would be “Whenever one or more vampires you control deal combat damage, put a +1/+1 counter on each vampire you control that didn’t attack this turn.”
This allows for an ability the provides lots of value while not being too overwhelming to play against and that doesn’t provide an engine from the command zone with things like extra combats.
I’d also change it so the “Whenever you cast a vampire creature spell, create a 1/1 black vampire creature token” ability was when he was on the battlefield instead of the attack trigger. This would give him a similar powerful potential, but limit it to when he’s actually out, giving opponents a way to keep him under control.
What do you think?
I actually really like eminence, but like partners it was not quite balanced when it came out.
Having said that mono-color partners are amazing (please please make more) and I think a new take on eminence would be fine.
I like eminence because it gives you the option to not use your commander but still have some of its abilities active, that you probably built the deck around. I would love to see it again in some future sets!! ofc maybe make the emince abilities a little less strong but still its a nice mechanic!
Like oloro :) exactly, interesting Mechanic, i mean they could Ban or errata them if they were too broken (and too popular using edhrec's Numbers)
Well that's the problem with eminence. You get free stuff, which is just unfair to your opponents. And while not every Eminence is broken, there will always be Edgar Markov, which was wrong design choice and I dread they make another one.
My only issue with Thrantis is that making a Tangarth “lets have everyone attack” deck seems silly when Thrantis does it with less hoops and providing a 3rd color (which crucially now includes some Rakdos cards from D&D). Do I want to build something technically inefficient or something where the strategy is handed to me.
I love my Edgar Markov deck, it's definitely the most tuned up and powerful of my ~15 edh decks. A few possible fixes I could think of maybe,
"this first time you cast a vampire each turn, create a 1/1 vampire token"
"whenever you cast a vampire, each opponent loses 1 life and you gain 1 life"
Considering we've had the Companion-errata, is there any reason you can't errata Commander Ninjutsu? It's not like the reminder text specifically says that you don't have to pay Commander Tax so I'd say it wouldn't be too confusing. I have a Yuriko-deck myself and while I obviously enjoy not having to pay the tax, I could live with it being implemented.
As for eminence... I'm just gonna say please don't.
@Todd Packer Because, like Gavin said, it's a needless subversion of the rule
If they errata Yuriko ability they should also do Derevi since they have a similar knack for skipping commander tax :P
@Todd Packer Y'know, the way cards work can also have an impact on other players' fun. Who would've thought?
@Todd Packer It's not affecting my playgroup but Gavin thinks it's a mistake and I could easily see the RC being on board with the change, too. You can rule 0 the tax away, too.
I love eminence! I built Edgar and The urdragon right away when they were released. I also built the cat deck up and gifted it to a friend and recently I built a second urdragon deck for my partner's daughter. All that being said, I don't think it should be used again. In all honesty you probably should have stopped after Oloro was created but I'm glad you didn't. Keep up the good work, your Eminence!
Commander Ninjitsu getting the tax seems like a justifiable errata. And it would open tons of design space for Neon Kamigawa.
If commander ninjutsu gets an errata I guarantee majority of players that play yuriko will drop her. It’s half the reason people play her tbh. Without it she would actually be very bad. The issue is that people don’t play against yuriko correctly she gets hosed hard by a lot of cards that anybody can play at a low opportunity cost. Any dark steel mutation type effect, pithing needle, containment priest, pressuring the yuriko players life total.
I mean I'd be happy if the command tax was halfed for commander ninjutsu
@@Evrybdygets1 Even with the errata she would be good.
Dark Steel Mutation style effects work, but they're basically only good for this specific thing. That's not a low opportunity cost.
Pithing Needle you're playing a card to shut off just that one specific card, and they can still just cast Yuriko.
Containment Priest is a super strong card and half the decks at the table will probably try to remove it quickly because it hates on what they're doing. If you're one of those decks, Containment Priest isn't looking super hype. Saying that Yuriko isn't an issue because Containment Priest exists is just dumb.
@@Ninjamanhammer that’s not what I said though. I said there is counterplay to her and gave a few examples. She’s far from the most oppressive thing in the format. You can very easily go over the top of a yuriko player with creature beats because majority of the creatures are x/1s. -1 -1 counters literally make it so she can’t do anything. She is a tempo deck and struggles in stalled board states filled with creatures that are almost always better than what she has on board stat wise. I disagree that she would still be good. Her strength comes from the fact that she can always be played for 2 mana and that she is essentially a dark confidant in the command zone. She actually scales really well and can be made to fit different power levels. Now if people are playing a cedh version of yuriko in a lower powered pod then that is a whole other issue and has more to do with who you’re playing with than the card itself being an issue. You’re not being stopped from playing the game and winning through her exsanguination effect is very inconsistent unless literally nobody is running interaction and just letting her snowball.
@@Evrybdygets1 Yuriko being a bad design that goes against the point of commander and Yuriko being "the most oppressive thing in the format" are two very different things.
Literally no one said there was no counterplay to her.
Also, you might need to read the card again, she triggers off any Ninja.
as a new player in mtg, what i found in edgar markov's eminence (my second deck) is great thou, i really like the philosophy of how the edgar works, he is literally a real boss here, a real commander, he literally sit on his throne for a long time, watching his army behind the scene, give his knight an army when he summoned them to battlefield, and when the time is right he will join his vampire army, boost all of them to give an opponent final blow, THATS A REALLY COOL CONCEPT, because you know........, at a first glance i thought "commander" format in mtg means you choose your king for your deck, build an army (monster, defender, some enchant artifact to support your army) around it, do some politic, and kill each other by battle, not just............. "hey before i summon my commander that make me draw bunch of card (ehem tymna), i literally summon bunch of tax spell, tutoring, cash i mean cast highly priced mana rock, and keep my counter spell to save my 2 cards combo win or infinite combo from your counter spell (and probably counter your combo piece)"
I cannot wrap my head around "Edgar is busted because it gives you additional resources for free" but seconds later "Ur-Dragon is fine because it simply reduces the cost of your dragons." Is mana not a resource?? Is reducing a cost not the same as GAINING mana???
Eminence seems like a great benefit for expensive commanders that might not hit the battlefield often. You may only play the Ur-Dragon once in a game because nine mana is a TON and ramping to it costs a lot of turns, which would leave you vulnerable (and 11 mana after it dies once is just painful). Then they have an ability that rewards getting them out. It also makes for a nice tribal bonus. I wouldn't hate it being a mechanic that came back, as I like it's idea.
I personally think Eminence as an idea isn't inherently bad, but it's something that is extremely easy to break so it has to be used with extensive care. You called out Ur Dragon as a good example and I'd agree on that!
Eminence is a neat ability, seems a little unfair to not be able to interact with but it can be nerfed in future iterations. In the Ur- Dragon is really good and not that threatening because they still come out paying 5-6 mana so not THAT explosive. Arahbo was overpowered in 1v1 commander but in multiplayer is manageable. Edgar Markov is a complete different story LOL. Limiting this kind of overpowered abilities to ONCE EACH TURN could ease the design (IMHO). Still I loved those designs, keep at it Gavin!
Honestly I think that while eminence is dangerous, all the eminence commanders rn are fine because they are so narrow - If I'm honest, vampires really need that push from edgar to create an actual incentive for playing them. And even then I have a hard time remembering when the Edgar player at my lgs last won. Yuriko sidestepping cmdr tax and najeela going "oops I'm infinite" as well as just randomly being 5c are definitely more problematic.
Is it weird that I like Edgar's eminence in its current form? Maybe a fixed version would generate a 1/1 vamp when a non-token vamp dies? The lifelink idea would fit well with Licia.
I like that Eminence exists, but it really has to be very carefully designed because opponents can't interact with it.
Boreas charger should have been half rounded up into the battlefield. That way it's strength would scale relative to how behind you are.
I think one change to make eminence more fair, would be to not have the eminence effect active until you have cast the card with it.
I think eminence deserves another chance. When I think about a commander/general in real world examples I literally think that they should be impactful on the battlefield but also impactful sitting in the back lines. Maybe in the future if done again you could do a small bonus if the commander is in the command zone but a bigger payoff if they are actually on the battlefield
I love how the Thantis lesson of saving up good ideas for future projects apply to every aspect of game design.
Yuriko is just fine the way she is. I enjoy playing against her and with her. If she had a commander tax she would almost be unplayable with how much she gets killed. I hope to see some more ninjas soon!
As far as eminence is concerned I like it, I don’t feel it’s too overwhelming when it’s a multiplayer format. It is troubling one vs one but for the most part commander is a social game. You typically have pods of 4 or 5 people which makes playing an aggro deck like Edgar much more balanced. If not almost impossible to win against all the board wipes
Good to hearing design choices and hearing some story behind them from a head of design.
While I understand what you said about Yuriko from a game design perspective, from a player perspective, I will quickly abandon commanders that are hard to cast. Being high cost is the reason why I DON’T build them to begin with. If an entire strategy revolves around the commander’s mechanics, and if the deck stops functioning without it, it disincentivize for the main deck to be built around the command. Yuriko is efficient, but she also impose high deck building restriction that exclusively play some bad one drops that don’t see the light of day in many builds. There’s also the fact that she’s not in green. Green decks have an easier time playing expensive cards. Non green decks can’t always rely on the game going long in hopes of re casting their expensive commanders. High cost commanders are doomed to fail and collect dust and not be played. With products striving efficiency, players have less reasons to purposely build inefficiently.
omg Gavin your halloween swagger is amazing. Nice jacket!
I enjoy Eminence. Ur-Dragon is probably my favorite. I wouldn’t mind seeing more of that ability in the futire
I am a bit of a spike so I don't find these all to be mistakes. Love the fact that you took ownership of everything though, shows great leadership. Keen on making the game we all love my friend!
I feel like if you added "once per turn" to Edgar, it would balance him out a lot.
It'd help reel it in a bit, but still too much free gas most likely. Even at 1 a turn it's still so easy to turn on things like Captivating Vampire, or Bloodline keeper with a few early turn cheap vampires. If they wanted to keep it making tokens, and not be as oppresive they probably should have had it looking for a specific CMC, or attack power as a pre requisite to trigger. Like if it was looking for a vampire of cmc 4-5 or greater before it would hand you a free vampire. THen you have to work a lot harder, and sink a lot more resources into it before it starts giving you the free value instead of "Oh play this random 1 or 2 drop vampire and get a free vampire.". Even with the 1 a turn restriction by turn 4-5 you're staring at 5+ vampires. And depending what lords, or other tribal stuff they've drawn with it that's likely to be an amount of pressure you absolutely need a board wipe for or Edgar is just taking over. And even you have a wipe, if they have any team protection in hand it still may not be enough. Stuff like Flawless Maneuvers, teferi's protection, Boros Charm, Akroma's Will, Unbreakable formation, Rootborn Defenses makes it very hard to shake off vampires early pressure.
Personally I think all it needed was to cost mana to make Tokens. Maybe 1 mana (whenever you cast vampire) makes a 1/1 w/b lifelink or first strike?
Edgar being #1 makes sense
One of my friends once was playing commander and one of the players brought a deck with Edgar, Charmed Groom and Olivia, Crimson Bride as partner commanders.
Since they don't have partner the person running the deck asked if they could Rule Zero it, but it was totally cool if they weren't ok with it. They could run it as an Edgar Markov deck instead.
The table picked the Rule Zero'd Partners unanimously lol.
Im honestly like the design of most of these cards, and how they function personally, it makes me a little sad to head most of these mechanics wont come back because i think they open good design spaces, edgar may be a little pushed but i could see someone making clues or tresure as a cool commander. Or maybe making commander ninjitsu more expensive on the next one
One of my friends in our command group plays yuriko, and while she's fun and everybody likes her, her ability definitely makes her oppressive so he ends up being archenemy every time. Going from your own analysis of Yuriko, I'd actually argue that eminence is a bad mechanic in itself. It's something that gives extra bonuses essentially for free. Any other commander has to be played to have impact on the game. Commanders with eminence can stay safely into the command zone and still impact the game.
I love my Ur-Dragon deck and honestly he seems to be powerful but not unfair. I hope if eminence is revisited it adds some downside to not playing your commander.
I've played quite a few games against different Edgar Markov decks and never thought the eminence ability was over powered. In the last game i played against him, the Arcades deck was crazy good at rebuilding, and stuck out way more as the problem
I actually really like all the cards on the list. They’re a little pushed sure. I think the only assessment I agree with is that Najeela shouldn’t trigger off her own tokens.
I know you said it was the number one mistake, but I for one as well as many other players have enjoyed Edgar Markov. I have played vampire tribal for many years starting with Olivia Voldaren in Innistrad but she didn't really do much in regards to tribal support. Edgar IMO is way more flavorful and spot on since he is the progenitor of vampires on Innistrad and it really shows in his abilities to make more vampires and empower them later on in a game. TL;DR thank you for making Edgar Markov.
I’ve never thought eminence “shouldn’t exist” I’m also of the mindset that it should enhance resources that already present instead of giving more free resources as you said.
Love these little insights into the minds that define magic.
I think the current commanders with eminence are fine, but it's not a mechanic I'd like to see again. The reason being is that it's impossible to interact with the mechanic and the player has to do nothing to very little to get a massive bonus effect. Experience counters and planeswalker emblems are similar, but a player has to at least do some work to get them/make them effective.
Eminence gets around the Commander Tax too, it even Breaks the whole Point of edh: Casting your Commander
Hi Gavin, I feel that Eminence and the commander tax are the solution. If you make a card that has an effect from the command zone equal to the number of times you've CAST it Even if it is in the command zone...then you have the push-pull in design that is valuable. And, it also creates the subgame of "Do I want to KILL that thing or deal with it other ways so the player won't get the emenience".
Do you have to get lists like this approved by wizards? (Wondering because I think many people were hoping for a reprint of your #1 biggest regret very soon)
One of my playgroups has a rule where Eminence commanders create a token enchantment at the beginning of the game with the text of the ability, instead of a passive effect from the command zone. Still functions pretty similarly, but it allows for interaction.
Personally I think cards that reference commander in general are problematic because it’s kind of like playing a different game. For that reason Eminence is a problem for me. I have a self imposed restriction when I build decks not to use commander specific cards because they don’t feel like MtG of my youth.
Eminence is a great potential space not just for tribes, but for adding things that can alter the game in new and creative ways. For example, if you look at a non-eminence card like Gor Muldrak, Amphinologist, there is a mini-game that gets played just by his existence on the battlefield. If a card like that had Eminence, think of all of the potential play pathways that can open up. The Monarch isn't the only mini-game that can make the game more fun and interesting.
Don't you talk that way about Yuriko she is perfect in every way.
Inalla was the deck that got me into commander in 2017, while i loved the idea of wizards and etb, it was really the reanimation of wanderwine prophet that got me hooked with the deck. i still was learning complex interactions and that singlehandedly made me understand how the stack works with just a single card. now my playgroup did not enjoy playing vs a 1card wincon that could come out of nowhere at any point in the game, but i sure did. i always told the people who where new to the group that they should always keep a blocker up since i purposly didnt add evasion for the prophet, but it still works quite well. its been 5 years since then and i havnt played inalla ever since bumping it up to just a full on cedh deck and it hasnt seen a game in my playgroup for 3 years yet still im targeted as a degen reanimate play :D currently i built araumi as my reanimate deck of choice for my playgroup, still tons of reaniamte affects, but i rely on araumi bringing back 3 massacre wurms or archon of cruelty's and just drain everyone rather then just killing them with a fish wizard. i think the main problem i have with inalla is that even when building for wizard tribal, it still doesn't feel enjoyable to play or play vs since using inalla eminence to the fullest always ends up with me have panharmonicon affects all over the place and venser and friends just being totally degenerate(so many bounce/draw/counter affects on wizards)... the inalla deck i want to build would be flooding the board with wizards and activating inallas burn. some intruder alarm shinanegans mabye too. however, the closest i ever got to getting that to work was because of paradox engine providing the mana(huge) plus untaps thats hard to come by in grixis. still inalla best commander and her art is just perfect 11/10
We appreciate you confessing your sins, Gavin, and we forgive you
Speak for yourself, Edgar is unforgivable 😭😜
Absolutely do not forgive.
Narjeela, the Blade Blossom is the commander of my "5 color tokens" deck. The fact that she works how she does is a big part of why I chose her. I like that her ability is self-perpetuating and doubles and doubles and doubles again. If she said "non-token" she really wouldn't work as the boss for that deck. Also there is no other 5 color commander that works with tokens in any meaningful way, so I think she fills a cool niche.
Eminence is a good commander keyword and it would be nice to see more of them, but it might be better to make them either more specific effect like: the first time you do something on each turn... or more generic like reducing mana cost of a type of card or being kind of a lord for a tribe, or with once per turn effect instead of triggering every single time you do something.
This is very cool Gavin, thank you for the insight!
I love this video and now this channel! Thank you, but I must say the love the eminence ability, it makes something at least happen as to where otherwise nothing fun happens, I love the concept.
I really like eminence for essentially the reason you mentioned. I think it has a bad reputation because of specifically edgar markov, and maybe a bit of inalla. I think that a different really cool way to design eminence would be to have the eminence effect be a weaker version of the commander's actual effect while on the battlefield. This would still promote the same type of deckbuilding around the commander, but could limit the drawback of having your commander removed in your deck that really wants, or maybe even needs, your commander on the battlefield.
As a couple random examples:
Maybe if you have a commander that has a pump effect for a specific tribe, that eminence ability could give +1/+0, or +0/+1 while in the command zone instead of a stronger pump such as a +2/+2 while on the battlefield.
Or if a card like Urza had eminence (stay with me on this one, it's just an example lol), maybe his eminence ability would be his mana ability, but could be used once during each of your turns, rather than just being a reusable activated ability (it's an extreme example cause this ability would still be insane as an eminence effect, but hopefully it gets my idea across). It wouldn't be nearly as powerful still as actually having Urza in play, but it'd still be an effect that rewards you for playing all of these 0 cmc artifacts that otherwise don't do a whole lot.
I'm a more competitive player that likes to see powerful decks that actually revolve around the commander rather than just focusing on getting as many colors in the color combination as possible and using the command zone as a place for value (hence why I despise partners, but that's a different story), and I think eminence is a really great way to create more commanders that allow players to stray away from that "4-5 color good-stuff" deck building style and build more unique decks.
I really like Eminence, and while I really like Ur-Dragon's cost reduction, I think the opt-in style of Inalla and Arahbo, where you have to pay mana to get access to it, is probably the best way to go about it. Even with Edgar, if it was "Whenever a vampire deals combat damage, you may pay 1, if you do, make a 1/1" would help a LOT in bringing it in line with the rest of the effects
I know I am a voice in a sea of noise, but I love Eminence, Inalla is one of my favorites it inspires a specific deck not just wizards but wizards with ETBs for example. It is a hard mechanic to balance but I think with the lessons you guys have learned just from Markov WOTC could make some really fun commanders with that mechanic in the future and I hope to see it!
I like Eminence! Arahbo is my favorite commander I've ever played with. It's a fun ability tthat you can apply every turn and makes playing a themed deck feel more powerful! Especially with high cost commanders, it can be hard to stay ahead of the curve when just playing a tribal deck. If you don't draw your high impact creature at the right time, you can definitely fall apart. Eminence helps you keep up for playing a more restrictive deck (restrictive because it gets better the more you commit to the theme).
I really love these videos not only do you share up and coming new magic products in fun and exciting ways but you also and very eloquently might I add share alot of your stories that are very interesting and alot of magic the gatherings history and u love the podcast episodes btw keep up the amazing work with magic and this channel ❤
I* not u lol
Eminence is the kind of mechanic that just rewards you for something the deck wants to be doing anyway.
If someone plays a Commander ONLY for its eminence effect and never wants to cast that Commander, you know the mechanic is completely wrong in its design.
So to fix that it would be fine if the Commander would at least need to be played once, and then if it goes back in the Command zone, then you could have the effect to linger around.
Najeela and Edgar hit me. I was so stoked when Najeela came out, finally a warrior commander that is both aggro and cares about warriors. from the first make to 6 months into it's life I had to dismantle it for the reason you mentioned. It just became a Pseudo cEDH deck, making me the arch enemy because my 1 card engine. I never made an Edgar deck but he fell in the same category of, even if you don't have a cEDH deck, you will stomp due to the High Floor for the deck. I guess you and Token production just shouldn't mix ^.^"
Eminence is one of the biggest motivators for me to build a deck I will tweak for years to come (re: Oloro, Inalla). Keep the options just as influential but limit how broken they can be by narrowing the number of colors in the identity. Mono-color could do with a refresh and there's your nerf without holding back on the ability.
Yes! Eminence effects that give you a benefit for playing niche cards would be ideal!
I think eminence has interesting design space, but I think my biggest issue with it is that it often incentivizes you to just not play your commander at all. If it were to come back I think that aspect would have to be looked at much more closely. Perhaps by weakening the eminence effect overall or by strengthening the effect if the commander is in play. Using Ur-Dragon as an example, maybe it's reducing dragons by 1 if in the Command Zone but 2 if on the battlefield or something along those lines.
I can see Eminence be a great mechanic if used with care. I loved your examples of giving lifelink or the +1/+1 counter on damage to players. The lifelink would make a vampire-lifegain niche viable instead of being the go-to best vampire commander with no real competition it is now. I think making Eminence function to make niches more viable is great, as long as they stay far away from being generic triggers that give you value from doing nothing special.
I really love eminence because it's more about the cards in your 99 than what's in your command zone. It seems nearly impossible to balance properly, though, so it should probably be reserved for very weak tribes or very passive effects.
For example, a Sea Monsters tribe eminence ability could say, "All Kraken, Leviathan, Octopus, Serpent, Whale, Shark, Fish, Jellyfish, and Starfish creatures are also Kraken, Leviathan, Octopus, and Serpent creatures in addition to their other types. If their mana value is 5 or greater, they cost (1) less to cast."
I have and enjoy a Yuriko deck. I think the mechanic is fun enough that it would still be good with commander tax, but a big part of that deck for me is being able to take advantage of her ability to bounce the board and recover quickly. It may be unfair, but even with that, the deck is still fun to play and play against. Take comfort that the lesson learned from Yuriko didn't leave a scar 😆
Negative Eminence, number of opponents matter, more ways to interact with abilities (steal / counter / "can't" for triggered/activated abilities), more ways to interact with opponents commanders (threaten command zone, temp control to help attack other players, temp control to help defend other players)
The mechanic I loved most was the one found in Jeleva, Proshh and Marath. They became better the more you pay the commander tax, while balancing itself at the same time.
My buddy plays an Edgar deck with the oversized commander and often times he doesn't even pull the card out of his bag. Ive seen him cast it twice ever. Eminence that includes some kind of subtle drawback while it's in the command zone could be interesting.
I clicked because I saw Azra Oddsmaker in the preview, and I have such a love for that card (especially in Karazikar!) I had no idea how you could regret it.
But Edgar... 10,000% I have to play against it all the time as 1/3 people I play with uses it as his primary deck, and all the guy does is spam effects like gravepact/pact of Erebos so every time one of his crappy 1/1 chump blockers dies everyone has to sacrifice. It makes it impossible to ever outscale him, and you can never gain a foothold because you'll usually have to sacrifice at least once between your turns, so you never want to cast your own commander because it will never stick. The worst part is that he acts persecuted when I then try to alpha strike him every game, as if he isn't playing an OP and oppressive commander!
I know that I am late, but I love to watch this video! And if I may, I`d like to make some observations:
1)Was Oloro the first "Eminence" commander? Yes? No? Maybe?
2) Please make new Eminence triggers/abilities in EDH! Specially with tribes ( merfolks, elfs, goblins, humans and zombies).
3) I really thought that number 1 would be Dockside Extortionist! I mean... There is an EDH era before and one after this card!! Now come it wasn´t even mention?
Eminence seems like it would work well if the card has some way opponents could avoid it from triggering, has a once per tern trigger or the commander has a "when this is on the battle field" effect so it shakes up how you are playing. The main issue with Eminence is that it would be very easy to build a deck with the intention of never getting your commander out.
for example :
Eminence - during the start of your upkeep you may swap day and night
Eminence - when attacking, If defending opponent with no creatures, all attacking creatures gain +1/+0 till end of turn
Eminence - while (name) is in the command zone all your creatures gain +0/+1 and vigilance
While (name) is on the battlefield all your creatures gain +1/+0 and haste
I think Eminence could be fair, if it would only encourage or reward you for something you already have. Arahbo and Ur-Dragon are good examples, I think, although it would definetly need some restrictions, most likely making it trigger only once per turn.
Thank you Gavin for not making The Ur-Dragon any more broken, i like him the way he is :)
I agree with you about eminence being fine as an enhancer ability. I would honestly love to see more eminence because it solves the "hey build your whole deck themed around this card so if that card isn't in play you can't do the coolest things in your deck" issue.
I would really like to see more like the Ur-Dragon: its heavily costed but with an ability that benefits the tribe on their weakness (high cost) without having to be played yet, but then you actually want to play it at some point because it's second ability is even better.
Markov and Inalla have stronger abilities in eminence and it causes the brokeness. There are a lot of times where playing your commander is bad, but it should not be *almost always better* to keep your commander off the field.
ya know I never thought about how the jund lands matter deck only had the planeswalker as the lands matter card. That being said I have built so many thantis/gyrus decks cause both of these cards are insane and powerful. gyrus as a commander just makes killing him better and bigger or left uncontested your blown out with value. Thantis with combat being either arch enemy now or punch me and you will take so much damage back and I won't care.