I'll try to put any updates/corrections in this post. If you're interested in my new t-shirt, throw one in your Amazon cart! amzn.to/3iksQHK 2020/09/30: I just tested the extruders with cold extrusion allowed. I removed the nozzles and extruded with my previously "close but inconsistent" steps/mm. I found that it greatly over-extruded, 10-12mm. It does seem reasonably consistent though. This means that nozzle versus no nozzle isn't equal which isn't good. I did figure out through a bit more testing that it seems to be able to "soft skip" without really making any sound. I think it's the extruder itself at this point and not the stepper motor but I plan to do some additional testing to narrow it down.
As another reviewer mentioned, there is a reason to link the dual-Z motors together. You may not have experienced; but, I have - mostly on larger printers with a bed that moves in the Z axis (opposed to bed slingers). It's the fact that when the printer is powered on, occasionally the steppers might get a power surge and ever so slightly move. This immediately cocks the bed sideways. In this case of dual Z motors on a bed slinger, it could mean one edge of the gantry gets mis-aligned. I have only seen this happen once on an old CR-10 that I converted to have dual-Z lead screws - and for a while I couldn't figure out why it was so far off printing that day. So the solution is this: if your control board has independent Z-axis leveling (2-way, 3-way, or even 4-way), then you'll be fine - as auto-leveling can measure and correct for the differences. However, on this printer, and the CR-10s, and CR-6 SEs, and Ender 3 mods, etc - the Z-axis are linked to the same single output. Therefore, you MUST have something else to keep the motors in sync. And that is, a belt linking the two lead screws.
It's been almost 5 months since you last updated this. Have you received any updates from JGMaker on the extruder issue? Honestly, this is the issue that's keeping me from purchasing a Artist-D Pro.
This printer looks to be a good candidate for a couple of Hemera or Medialabs Matrix dual geared extruders. You've been digging around in the firmware, is it close enough to the stock Marlin so that it wouldn't be much of an issue to install them with VSCode? That would make a killer IDEX printer! I just looked in Thingiverse and found a BMG extruder mount for this machine. That would be a good choice, too, but I'm sure it won't be long before we see others. I enjoy your videos. Keep up the good work!
As everyone said thank you for the detailed review. You're the first one I've seen mention the extruder problems, I really hope it's an easy fix or that they have it worked out in the final Kickstarter models
Great review, thank you! I am a kcikstarter and as a flash sale backer I am getting the printer for $339 and for that I think it is going to be an awesome printer! Thank you for showing the extruder issues, it won't stop me backing the project but I hope it makes JGMaker look in to the issues.
Thanks for the great video. I really like the amount of detail you covered and that skipped some of the basics other channels have covered. I don't think I will be buying this one but I was curious about it. Hopefully this video being out means that the SKR PRO videos are next 🤞 😁
Wow this review have started a well deserved discusion on the JG maker page. Hope this help in the production models. The good thing about the JG Maker team, is that they seems to be listening to their backers.
Now this is a proper review. SUBBED. I backed the machine at flash sale price just for fun. €288 for a big idex machine? Yeah I'll take that chance. That extruder issue is concerning though. I'd like to see it replicated by others. The Z belt is probably there in case one of the motors fails I guess??? I wouldn't worry about nozzle availability though. TriangleLab will probably have them for sale a week after this thing launches.
I love this video. I'm backing this printer, but now I'm like meh idk. Strange enough, other reviewers have very positive feedback. Thanks and your channel deserves to be subscribed to.
Watched the whole video and was impressed as usual about the care and detail you put into them. When I first saw the price I was shocked at how inexpensive it seemed for a dual extruder with a large print area. As I continued to watch the reasons became more obvious, they cut lots of corners. The design is solid, but appears to have some of the worst extruders possible. I think after the recent KickStarter problems companies should realize that they are going to be held to a higher standard if they go that path. I could see getting this and replacing the extruders and mainboard, but seems to be more than I want to tackle. I have been Crealityed enough for a while.
@@kerseyfabs I can see they have to figure out how to sell these at a reasonable price, but you don't purchase a dual extruder printer for bad extruders
I have the Artist-D pro and after I figured out how to solve the extruder single memory problem, the printer works very well for me. I have some excellent prints that I am proud to show. What I did was calibrate each extruder one at a time take the steps and use Gcode commands in the extruder section of the printer settings. Then when each extruder/hot end is commanded to print a model it reads the start Gcode in the extruder column and your extruder works with its exact steps. Only bad part is if you use a duel print, it reads the second extruder steps last and uses that value for steps. I then take a mid point value and insert it into extruder 2 Start Gcode. Hope this helps others.
Sure I am a bit late to the party on this machine, but just now am considering an IDEX. And this machine still seems to be in the race, as there just aren't many compelling IDEX machines available. First, Thank You! This is exactly the kind of in depth info I crave when considering a machine! I will happily sit through an hour long video, if it has this kind of depth! Just Subbed! Second, curious what ever came of this machine? Did you keep it in service, or kick it to the heap?
Hey Kris. Great video as always. I was waiting for your reveiw and although the printer has some good ideas I think it has too many problems for me. I will stick with my CR6-SE (when it leaves Germany and comes by UPS to UK) LOL
I think you've saved me $389. On paper, for what you see and the price it is, it comes across as a great deal.. then your breakdown of everything sums up exactly how they get to that price point. Thanks for a great, in depth review. Eye's now on the BIQU BX, also a kickstarter
Not working for anybody. The comment about the BX kickstarter was more of a consideration if Kris would possibly review later down the track or if he knew about it (He did ask) There's no comparing the two, obviously.. Remember, this is the only review with a tear down of the machine and its components, and how the product achieves what it does for the price.
I have been watching the BX and I really like it from an electronics perspective. It is a bit small though. I have not been told I'll receive a review unit at this time but I would be interested if offered. As you both agreed, apples and oranges compared to the Artist-D.
Excellent video as always. I received the flex plate I won from your giveaway. Thanks! I like it and ordered 2 more for 2 of my sidewinders. I like your channel T shirt. I’ll have to get one.
I tried to solve extrusion problem on my artist-d pro. Heater has not enough power to work under air flow from cooler. So filament too hard for extruder. When I reduce air to 30% instead of 100% on PLA - everything works perfect. So cooling system must be redesigned to put air flow lower then heater
One thing I might try is to remove the nozzle and the test extrusion. If you get the expected 100mm perhaps the issue is in the hot ends. Maybe they are not reporting the correct temps. Just a thought.
That’s saying the firmware is setup to even allow cold extrusion. Most aren’t... specially with these low budget printers. So that means going back a second or even third time to configure the firmware. Hopefully JGMaker takes note of these issues and corrects them before (hopefully) shipping off the first batch of printers.
TheWalabee yeah same here, but I had a pi4 fry it’s USB ports at the beginning of the pandemic and decided on purchasing another... well.... cold extrusion is how I calibrate and it took me a good few days to figure out why I kept getting error messages. Had to enable the firmware to allow it.
I figured this issue out. I tested steps just like you. All messed up just like you. But when I printed at 102 steps in cura vase mode and it is watertight flawless. This makes me think it's a firmware issue and when you tell it to move the extruder a certain distance it doesn't actually move it that distance That's the only thing I could think of. I am getting perfect prints at 102 on both extruders
I have the same exact issue with mine I just purchased. Is there a simplified answer by chance that you found for this issue? I haven't even got to use this printer for one good print it's just sat on my shelf since I've purchased it and I've been having to make do with my single extruder printers. I was extremely disappointed with how the company handled my transaction and I was given a damaged printer to begin with that I had to replace parts and now I have this extruder issue. I wanted an idex printer pretty bad for a long time and now that I have one it's caused me more headache then any of my others. Thank you for this video
Another thought about what is supplied with the printer. I was really disappointed with Creality on the CR-6 SE. This was a very large KickStarter with thousands of units shipped. Why did they not include a CURA profile on the SD card? They included an old version of CURA, but no specific profile for the printer. The included gcode (if you could find it), but it had all been created with SImplify3D. How much time would it have taken to have an outside reviewer competent in English to help them understand how to put together a useful SD card. The card would have the same cost, but would be so much better for the first time user, which I think should be their market. It seems like you had the same experience with this.
That's it. The review would have been much easier (and more positive) if some of those details would have been taken care of ahead of time. Then the backers would have gotten them too.
I posted youtube videos of this printer on the Tenlog facebook group I am a member of. The feedback I received is this machine doesn't have 7 steppers so the dual z synchronization is an issue. Tenlog machines have many problems but this product is coming an year later compared to the Tenlog machines, it is produced by a bigger manufacturer, but still the Tenlog machine is superior in design (has 7 steppers, has a custom dual z synchronization procedure retrofitted into Marlin using dual z endstops, has a touch screen, motor placement is symmetrical on the x axis) and more easily upgradeable. I have had my issues with my machine, so I welcome new IDEX machines. I hope JGMaker takes a look at what Tenlog has done and copy the good parts before they start selling this.
@@kerseyfabs I had previously shared your G34 video with my community as well. Many of them want to migrate to Marlin 2. Tenlog machines run a modded version of Marlin 1.0. The board itself has issues with heating the bed (over 60C) and the hotends (over 250C). I had to replace my motherboard because it died when I tried heating the bed to 80C. It has 7 steppers so, to replace it, I would need the BTT GTR or the BTT EXP MOT. There are no reviews of the BTT EXP MOT, but I will try it.
The ptfe tube needs to be replaced with a Capricorn tubing. I’d put money that the cheap tube being used is the root of the problem. It’s a common problem I’ve seen on so many Ender 3s over the last couple years. I’m a backer, and one of the first things I’m doing is replacing the tubing with a copper inserts. Not messing around with ptfe. Great break down and good video!
Kersey Fabrications you did plenty. The length was good and the effort put in was above what almost all other youtubers put in. This is kinda what I had expected from other tubers reviewing this machine. As this is a kickstarter... more in depth videos like this should have been made. Yeah... the build process is bice to know... but the calibration and dialing in of a such a machine is far far far more important. So... really... at this point I don’t think you really need to do much more until the first machines are delivered to backers. The inability to dial in the extruders is now up to JGMaker to correct. And as I absolutely appreciate the work you put in setting up custom firmware... that is also something JGMaker is going to have to address. Thanks again!
(editing/adding as I watch. :) ) I have seen dual Z Steppers get misaligned, mostly when the unit is turned off one side can relax and drop a step or 2 as there is no longer any power to the motors. I have often had to realign the Z motor/X gantry. But it can often give feed back into prints having them held at the. top. the belts in reality need to be underneath the bed some how. Also, it look like the Boards cooling/blower fan the inlet is actually blocked by the base? it doesn't look like it's aligned with the vents in the bottom panel, looks just rear of the openings. Many people are going to say "dual drive" thing is single sided drive extruders are just fine for general 3D Printing. if they are slipping or under/over extruding there is something else wrong. My guess looking at that is that the nozzle system is not fully contacting both in the heat block and in the cooling end. also it may very well be the nozzle assembly mis aligned with the extruder gear. Very cool and full coverage of this printer! great job
On my 1 year old ender 5 , Anyone know what causes control screen to start beeping and screen keeps changing all on its own??? not one video on this... its driving me nuts... printer was working perfect...i un did and reconnected all wires on harness ,but still continues to beep .. shut off and restarted 3-4 times and it does still print.... found a couple of videos,but no information on fixing it... any help is appreciated...
It sounds to me that something is wrong with the display itself. It could possibly be that it's falsely detection something touch it. I'd probably just replace it.
I agree with you, but I'm getting thr flash sale of 339 with shipping to the ME. If I buy it with the MSRP and then pay for shipping, that would easily surpass $1000. I pray JGMaker do make changes to this printer.
This is a great video. That reminds me of the Anet A8 extruder. Would be nice to use a much better system. Maybe design one to use the Orbiter. Would give you a better grip. These printers feel really cheap.
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Do you think it is possible to replace the extruders? maybe to Bondtech Dual Drive ?
That's a tough one. Honestly, I need to see a fix for this problem first. BUT, for the money, it's not a bad upgrade. You couldn't upgrade those yourself for that price.
was tempted but after seeing this honest review unless they get thier act together on the extruder issue its a none starter, had similar on a dual extruder single nozzle where the replacement was worse than the first i returned, thankfully i had amazons backing and fully refunded,wont have that with this, so unless you have money to burn i would wait and see what happens next
@@kerseyfabs yes please please give us an update. I'm scrambling trying to figure out whether I should pull pledge. Did JG Maker respond like professionals and take your feedback constructively? Will they, can they fix these serious issues? Are there any solutions. Is the extruder design a fail? Please let us know what you've uncovered
If you compare the printer to the TENLOG TL-D3PRO, I do not see any advantage. You get the TENLOG TL-D3PRO for about 410€ (including tax and shipping) from EU-Warehouse from AliExpress - so the Kickstarter-Project is not cheaper. But the TL-D3PRO has some advantages: - more than 1 year available now. - Constantly improved. Actual: Titan-Style extruders, 2208 TMC, dual z-Endstops, optical Endstops on x and z. 7 Axis ( x1, x2, y, z1, z2, e0, e1). Touchscreen. Have not bought it now - but have seen no negative test now. Only you might check some screws after transport. So I do not understand why a quite simular printer in the same price-range is done as a kickstarter project. If you want an IDEX in this size, simply buy it. Coupling both z-Axis is necessary on an IDEX. Best of course with two z endstops like in the TL-D3PRO. It's not about skipped steps while printing (If this is happening, your problem is deeper and should be solved first), but mosty accedently pushing a side down while printer is powered of. While single Extruder can compensate for a slight tilt of the x-axis using ABL, ABL never works on an IDEX in duplicate or mirror mode. In this modes an IDEX only can use manual leveling - and x-axis and bed have to be perfectly parallel. This is one of the reasons why I am not convinced by combining IDEX and bedshaker design and will neither buy the kickstarter-printer nor the TL-D3PRO. Not being able to do ABL in a large bed meens using a very thick bed (for example 9mm aluminium), so I would prefere a stationary (or maybe z-moving) bed. Something like a Voron with stationary bed, perfectly flat, and the x/y kinematik moving in z.
I'd be interested in doing that but I'd have to get a review unit. It's about a $500 unit and I don't have the money set aside for that at the moment. Feel free to contact them and let them know you'd be interested.
also I wonder how much the nozzle design affects everything, 3dmn did drill a nozzel open and it showed that the ptfe tube doesn't only goes down to the hotend but actually right up to the nozzle th-cam.com/video/UKbAQJHtTBE/w-d-xo.html
Thanks for the link. The nozzle could be affecting how well it's able to push filament through if it's creating a lot of resistance trying to heat the filament fast enough. One more thing for me to test.
@@kerseyfabs Those nozzles do come apart. Last night in the live Artist-D stream they showed how the brass nozzle can be screwed off from the custom throat.
I don't think many of us want to test a new nozzle design, especially one with a PTFE tube in the middle I like the idea of a quick change, but not this
Hi Chris. Complete review. I liked it. I went ahead and backed it on kickstarter anyway. I was thinking of tearing both of the hot end/extruder assemblies off and using E3D Hemera's, my only concern was the interface between the ribbon cable and the hot end/extruder assembly. Your video gave me the confidence to roll the dice. Looks like a tinkerers delight with just a horrible extruder. You've gained a sub. Thanks.
Glad it was helpful! I've thought the same thing about swapping out the extruders. You may end up having to mount the breakout board on the extruder to handle wiring nicely.
I never seen anyone calibrate e-steps through hotend. Actually everything you read tells you not to do that because your results will not be consistent. But you have the TH-cam channel not me. So you do you.
Sure, you can first calibrate the extruder using the "open air" method to get a baseline of what it should be. But then, when you actually put the filament through the nozzle, the results should be the same. If they're not then your extruder isn't extruding the same amount of material each time and you're going to get inconsistent prints. The job of the extruder is to extrude the amount it was told to. For reference, all of the printers I use regularly have no problem doing this.
Technically yes. The real challenge are the carriages. I've thought about getting a CNC so I could start working on things like that. Would people be interested?
As of right now I have 4 theories as to why these extruders may perform so inaccurate. 1. The hot swap nozzle design doesn’t allow for proper contact with the heater block, limiting heat transfer and leaving the nozzle at a lower temperature as set, which could limit filament flow. 2. The ptfe tube runs down a little too far into the nozzle, acting as an insulator and only leaving a tiny amount of space for the filament to properly melt in. 3. Too low of a motor driver current set at the potentiometer on the stepper driver. This would lead to some skipped steps, even if it’s just a little too low. 4. The stepper motors have a very bad step accuracy.
Why? Even if you calculate to exchange the extruders and the hotends it would be a great price. I don't back it only, because I don't like bed slingers.
Yeah, like me, you're probably never get another JGMaker 3D Printer to review after this video. They like fan-boy reviewers that skip over details with unicorns and rainbows.
I take these reviews very seriously. I hope they see the value in the information I provided and make any improvements necessary. I want awesome printers for the hundreds or thousands of people that back this product. I still wish them well and I would love to see the shipping product.
I'm sorry to hear that. This is Amazon's selection and I don't have any control over it. If I ever do an actual screen-printed run, I'll be sure to have some bigger shirts made for you!
@@kerseyfabs the fact they expect you to rehome, eye ball the adjustment of the z screw and re-level over and over and no micro-steps for the middle , ridiculous.
I got this printer free so I am not complaining. It's very hard to level like you said.. Once I got it leveled I didn't touch it. Still working without an issue. I want to replace the loud fans though.
FPC cables like these are designed to move, they should be alright; to the extent that they can wear out, they seem off-the-shelf rather than custom, so you shouldn't have an issue with replacements. I also think the connection between the two Z rods shouldn't cause any issues and can correct drift. When the motors are unpowered, and then powered again after reset, they first relax and then snap back to the nearest full step. But this can introduce drift or offset, that can gradually grow, because one of the sides can be lower friction or heavier than other, and so slide down the screw more, and eventually the x-gantry can turn just enough around the y-axis and bind up. I think motors helping each other maintain torque can only be a good thing. The connection introduces technically an overconstraint, but i think once zeroed in and running well, it should never cause issues again and can help prevent some, and the belt is pliable enough for this not to be a hard overconstraint. Perhaps a better solution is ABL with individual Z stepper drivers, but then they simply ran out of motor slots on this board. The little radial fan targeting the control PCB is interesting, but seems to be missing the corresponding intake opening on the bottom chassis. Ideal would be a separated chamber with axial fan on the outlet and some holes on the opposite side of the board, so that the air is forced to only pass through the board, one intake, one outlet. Or alternatively just a bigger axial fan blowing on top the control PCB with direct intake from the outside, though this introduces packaging issues with heatsinks and wires sprouting up from the PCB. Then in either case another 40mm axial fan at the back would be unnecessary. However the way they put it together it will work fine. I too like the Marlin LCD, they're a time-proven solution and adequate to the tech at hand. I want to actually rewrite the status screen so you can change everything you see and jog the printer right from there. What i don't want to see is the Robin TFT touchscreen, because it slows down the firmware when it updates the screen. Robin board seems like a nice opportunity to put THB6128 or LV8729 to use. I understand that such a printer is still under some cost pressure, so equipping it full of Trinamic might not be viable. I have a feeling about the general direction of the extrusion issue. I mean, if you look at standard MK8 extruder, it works actually very well. If you're printing flex, you want dual sided extruder, but if you're just printing ABS, ASA, PETG, you don't even care, a standard alu MK8 with idler preload screw is plenty, and PLA is forgiving towards even less fortunate constructions. I suspect the issue is that the extruder as you got it now is very sensitive to filament fit and width variations. For example when you retract, then later the same filament is pushed through extruder again, but this time it's misshapen, slightly more oval, flattened by the previous run in the extruder, and also it comes with different ovality and diameter right off the roll, slightly, even though manufacturers maintain very constant filament extrusion in terms of g/m, so you want the idler to provide the same amount of pressure, regardless of apparent filament width at the idler. You can't hard clamp the filament, you can't replace the spring with a screw, because it will make the issue worse - the extruder will only be more sensitive to filament shape variation. Spring force (Hooke's Law) is F=-kd where d is displacement from relaxed spring state, by what length the spring is compressed, and k is spring constant, and you want F to be constant, so a must is to preload the spring heavily, make d large in steady state, so that delta-d imparted by the filament shape change is small. Similarly you shall find that the spring k constant shouldn't necessarily be high, so it's MUCH better to take a lighter, longer spring, and preload it by a substantial length, than to take a harder spring which seems of right length, in fact high k constant can be an enemy, if it doesn't allow you to achieve enough displacement d before other issues such as binding occur, so it might well be that the stock spring is too short and too hard, which they did to enable screw release of the filament at such little footprint. You also don't really want the force to be too high, as you can crush the filament in the extruder and elongate it, and since you're propelling a certain length as a stand-in for volume of material you want to deposit, the result is underextrusion. An additional issue can be collisions and friction, that the idler simply hard stops against something with certain filament shapes, or if the idler binds up, or if the filament rubs on some kind of hard edge, and it seems like this extruder may be extremely sensitive to manufacturing tolerances, because the sliding fit between parts has to be pretty spot on, and god forbid you get a burr or even a filament shaving (an eventual inevitability) in between there. You should be able to play around with the extruder assembly and a piece of filament in your hand and identify the issue by feel and sight. If it is this sensitive to debris, then as the sliding surfaces wear down, it might actually become worse, as the idler slider can become prone to turn and wedge itself solid. The standard alu MK8 is slightly ambivalent in its design, because it has that 2x force amplification built into the idler lever, which seems nice, but it also amplifies delta-d which is nominally bad; but it also allows for large enough preload d, so it ends up being OK, and it's pretty resilient to binding and only relies on the lever turning smoothly around a screw which is pretty well out of the way, so little goes wrong there.
I'll try to put any updates/corrections in this post.
If you're interested in my new t-shirt, throw one in your Amazon cart! amzn.to/3iksQHK
2020/09/30:
I just tested the extruders with cold extrusion allowed. I removed the nozzles and extruded with my previously "close but inconsistent" steps/mm. I found that it greatly over-extruded, 10-12mm. It does seem reasonably consistent though. This means that nozzle versus no nozzle isn't equal which isn't good.
I did figure out through a bit more testing that it seems to be able to "soft skip" without really making any sound. I think it's the extruder itself at this point and not the stepper motor but I plan to do some additional testing to narrow it down.
As another reviewer mentioned, there is a reason to link the dual-Z motors together. You may not have experienced; but, I have - mostly on larger printers with a bed that moves in the Z axis (opposed to bed slingers). It's the fact that when the printer is powered on, occasionally the steppers might get a power surge and ever so slightly move. This immediately cocks the bed sideways. In this case of dual Z motors on a bed slinger, it could mean one edge of the gantry gets mis-aligned. I have only seen this happen once on an old CR-10 that I converted to have dual-Z lead screws - and for a while I couldn't figure out why it was so far off printing that day.
So the solution is this: if your control board has independent Z-axis leveling (2-way, 3-way, or even 4-way), then you'll be fine - as auto-leveling can measure and correct for the differences.
However, on this printer, and the CR-10s, and CR-6 SEs, and Ender 3 mods, etc - the Z-axis are linked to the same single output. Therefore, you MUST have something else to keep the motors in sync. And that is, a belt linking the two lead screws.
It's been almost 5 months since you last updated this. Have you received any updates from JGMaker on the extruder issue? Honestly, this is the issue that's keeping me from purchasing a Artist-D Pro.
This printer looks to be a good candidate for a couple of Hemera or Medialabs Matrix dual geared extruders. You've been digging around in the firmware, is it close enough to the stock Marlin so that it wouldn't be much of an issue to install them with VSCode? That would make a killer IDEX printer!
I just looked in Thingiverse and found a BMG extruder mount for this machine. That would be a good choice, too, but I'm sure it won't be long before we see others.
I enjoy your videos. Keep up the good work!
@@Chad.The.Flornadian did you see this? th-cam.com/video/qdkTuZ0V1cc/w-d-xo.html
I'm very impressed with all of Kersey's reviews. In-depth and meticulous, he shows how a review is done.
Thank you John! I really appreciate it!
As everyone said thank you for the detailed review. You're the first one I've seen mention the extruder problems, I really hope it's an easy fix or that they have it worked out in the final Kickstarter models
33:59 That made me go "wow". I'm impressed.
Thanks! I try to go deep on these machines. That's the fun part for me.
I love the contend. I really like the extreme level of detail. Just picked up a shirt to help support the channel.
Much appreciated! I hope you like it!
Great review, thank you! I am a kcikstarter and as a flash sale backer I am getting the printer for $339 and for that I think it is going to be an awesome printer! Thank you for showing the extruder issues, it won't stop me backing the project but I hope it makes JGMaker look in to the issues.
Thanks for the feedback Gavin! I hope you receive a terrific printer!
Thanks for the great video.
I really like the amount of detail you covered and that skipped some of the basics other channels have covered.
I don't think I will be buying this one but I was curious about it.
Hopefully this video being out means that the SKR PRO videos are next 🤞 😁
Glad it was helpful! Not next but I think next next. There shouldn't be so long of a break between videos this time.
Wow this review have started a well deserved discusion on the JG maker page. Hope this help in the production models. The good thing about the JG Maker team, is that they seems to be listening to their backers.
thanks, we would love to hear the voice from users.
Now this is a proper review. SUBBED.
I backed the machine at flash sale price just for fun. €288 for a big idex machine? Yeah I'll take that chance.
That extruder issue is concerning though. I'd like to see it replicated by others.
The Z belt is probably there in case one of the motors fails I guess???
I wouldn't worry about nozzle availability though. TriangleLab will probably have them for sale a week after this thing launches.
Subbed for spending a week customising firmware code. Implementing a new feature just to diagnose a printer for review is impressive.
Thanks for the sub!
I love this video. I'm backing this printer, but now I'm like meh idk.
Strange enough, other reviewers have very positive feedback.
Thanks and your channel deserves to be subscribed to.
Watched the whole video and was impressed as usual about the care and detail you put into them. When I first saw the price I was shocked at how inexpensive it seemed for a dual extruder with a large print area. As I continued to watch the reasons became more obvious, they cut lots of corners. The design is solid, but appears to have some of the worst extruders possible. I think after the recent KickStarter problems companies should realize that they are going to be held to a higher standard if they go that path. I could see getting this and replacing the extruders and mainboard, but seems to be more than I want to tackle. I have been Crealityed enough for a while.
I'm with you. That's what I took from this as well. I really do thing they rushed the review units.
@@kerseyfabs I can see they have to figure out how to sell these at a reasonable price, but you don't purchase a dual extruder printer for bad extruders
I have the Artist-D pro and after I figured out how to solve the extruder single memory problem, the printer works very well for me. I have some excellent prints that I am proud to show. What I did was calibrate each extruder one at a time take the steps and use Gcode commands in the extruder section of the printer settings. Then when each extruder/hot end is commanded to print a model it reads the start Gcode in the extruder column and your extruder works with its exact steps. Only bad part is if you use a duel print, it reads the second extruder steps last and uses that value for steps. I then take a mid point value and insert it into extruder 2 Start Gcode. Hope this helps others.
@@neilcagle8590 Sounds like you came up with a good solution.
Sure I am a bit late to the party on this machine, but just now am considering an IDEX. And this machine still seems to be in the race, as there just aren't many compelling IDEX machines available. First, Thank You! This is exactly the kind of in depth info I crave when considering a machine! I will happily sit through an hour long video, if it has this kind of depth! Just Subbed!
Second, curious what ever came of this machine? Did you keep it in service, or kick it to the heap?
Hey Kris. Great video as always. I was waiting for your reveiw and although the printer has some good ideas I think it has too many problems for me. I will stick with my CR6-SE (when it leaves Germany and comes by UPS to UK) LOL
I understand. I will have an update on this soon.
Hello everyone, we have fixed the extrusion issue, it is about firmware, and we have published the video on our youtube channel already.
Can you share the fix so that I can verify it?
@@kerseyfabs ok, I will send you firmware through email
@@JGAURORA3dprinter I have received an e-mail from JGMaker and will post an update if I find anything new.
@@kerseyfabs hi Kernsey! I was wondering if you ever got to try the new firmware
I'm a backer, and hearing you fixed it makes me insanely happy.
I think you've saved me $389. On paper, for what you see and the price it is, it comes across as a great deal.. then your breakdown of everything sums up exactly how they get to that price point.
Thanks for a great, in depth review.
Eye's now on the BIQU BX, also a kickstarter
Not working for anybody. The comment about the BX kickstarter was more of a consideration if Kris would possibly review later down the track or if he knew about it (He did ask) There's no comparing the two, obviously..
Remember, this is the only review with a tear down of the machine and its components, and how the product achieves what it does for the price.
I have been watching the BX and I really like it from an electronics perspective. It is a bit small though. I have not been told I'll receive a review unit at this time but I would be interested if offered. As you both agreed, apples and oranges compared to the Artist-D.
Excellent video as always. I received the flex plate I won from your giveaway. Thanks! I like it and ordered 2 more for 2 of my sidewinders. I like your channel T shirt. I’ll have to get one.
I'm glad you liked the plate and the shirt! Thanks!
I bought your T shirt after I wrote the comment.
I tried to solve extrusion problem on my artist-d pro. Heater has not enough power to work under air flow from cooler. So filament too hard for extruder. When I reduce air to 30% instead of 100% on PLA - everything works perfect. So cooling system must be redesigned to put air flow lower then heater
One thing I might try is to remove the nozzle and the test extrusion. If you get the expected 100mm perhaps the issue is in the hot ends. Maybe they are not reporting the correct temps. Just a thought.
Good idea. It will also let me know if the difference is just from back pressure. From a functional stand-point though, it's still a non-starter.
That’s saying the firmware is setup to even allow cold extrusion. Most aren’t... specially with these low budget printers. So that means going back a second or even third time to configure the firmware. Hopefully JGMaker takes note of these issues and corrects them before (hopefully) shipping off the first batch of printers.
I didn't even know that was a thing. I have done it with Octoprint whenever I needed to. Live and learn.
TheWalabee yeah same here, but I had a pi4 fry it’s USB ports at the beginning of the pandemic and decided on purchasing another... well.... cold extrusion is how I calibrate and it took me a good few days to figure out why I kept getting error messages. Had to enable the firmware to allow it.
I figured this issue out. I tested steps just like you. All messed up just like you. But when I printed at 102 steps in cura vase mode and it is watertight flawless.
This makes me think it's a firmware issue and when you tell it to move the extruder a certain distance it doesn't actually move it that distance That's the only thing I could think of. I am getting perfect prints at 102 on both extruders
That sounds amazing, did you test the extrusion itself by comparing how much it is feeding. Or is it just the final result you considered?
I have the same exact issue with mine I just purchased. Is there a simplified answer by chance that you found for this issue? I haven't even got to use this printer for one good print it's just sat on my shelf since I've purchased it and I've been having to make do with my single extruder printers. I was extremely disappointed with how the company handled my transaction and I was given a damaged printer to begin with that I had to replace parts and now I have this extruder issue. I wanted an idex printer pretty bad for a long time and now that I have one it's caused me more headache then any of my others. Thank you for this video
Excellent review 👍👍👍
Thanks!
Another thought about what is supplied with the printer. I was really disappointed with Creality on the CR-6 SE. This was a very large KickStarter with thousands of units shipped. Why did they not include a CURA profile on the SD card? They included an old version of CURA, but no specific profile for the printer. The included gcode (if you could find it), but it had all been created with SImplify3D. How much time would it have taken to have an outside reviewer competent in English to help them understand how to put together a useful SD card. The card would have the same cost, but would be so much better for the first time user, which I think should be their market. It seems like you had the same experience with this.
That's it. The review would have been much easier (and more positive) if some of those details would have been taken care of ahead of time. Then the backers would have gotten them too.
I posted youtube videos of this printer on the Tenlog facebook group I am a member of. The feedback I received is this machine doesn't have 7 steppers so the dual z synchronization is an issue. Tenlog machines have many problems but this product is coming an year later compared to the Tenlog machines, it is produced by a bigger manufacturer, but still the Tenlog machine is superior in design (has 7 steppers, has a custom dual z synchronization procedure retrofitted into Marlin using dual z endstops, has a touch screen, motor placement is symmetrical on the x axis) and more easily upgradeable. I have had my issues with my machine, so I welcome new IDEX machines. I hope JGMaker takes a look at what Tenlog has done and copy the good parts before they start selling this.
Thanks for the input. I have received a lot of input on the Z-sync comments I made and I appreciate the feedback.
@@kerseyfabs I had previously shared your G34 video with my community as well. Many of them want to migrate to Marlin 2. Tenlog machines run a modded version of Marlin 1.0. The board itself has issues with heating the bed (over 60C) and the hotends (over 250C). I had to replace my motherboard because it died when I tried heating the bed to 80C. It has 7 steppers so, to replace it, I would need the BTT GTR or the BTT EXP MOT. There are no reviews of the BTT EXP MOT, but I will try it.
The ptfe tube needs to be replaced with a Capricorn tubing. I’d put money that the cheap tube being used is the root of the problem. It’s a common problem I’ve seen on so many Ender 3s over the last couple years.
I’m a backer, and one of the first things I’m doing is replacing the tubing with a copper inserts. Not messing around with ptfe.
Great break down and good video!
Thank you! I appreciate all the ideas. I would have done more in the video but it was long enough and took a ton of time to produce!
Kersey Fabrications you did plenty. The length was good and the effort put in was above what almost all other youtubers put in. This is kinda what I had expected from other tubers reviewing this machine. As this is a kickstarter... more in depth videos like this should have been made. Yeah... the build process is bice to know... but the calibration and dialing in of a such a machine is far far far more important.
So... really... at this point I don’t think you really need to do much more until the first machines are delivered to backers. The inability to dial in the extruders is now up to JGMaker to correct. And as I absolutely appreciate the work you put in setting up custom firmware... that is also something JGMaker is going to have to address.
Thanks again!
Thanks!
No problem! Thanks for the tip!
(editing/adding as I watch. :) ) I have seen dual Z Steppers get misaligned, mostly when the unit is turned off one side can relax and drop a step or 2 as there is no longer any power to the motors. I have often had to realign the Z motor/X gantry. But it can often give feed back into prints having them held at the. top. the belts in reality need to be underneath the bed some how. Also, it look like the Boards cooling/blower fan the inlet is actually blocked by the base? it doesn't look like it's aligned with the vents in the bottom panel, looks just rear of the openings. Many people are going to say "dual drive" thing is single sided drive extruders are just fine for general 3D Printing. if they are slipping or under/over extruding there is something else wrong. My guess looking at that is that the nozzle system is not fully contacting both in the heat block and in the cooling end. also it may very well be the nozzle assembly mis aligned with the extruder gear. Very cool and full coverage of this printer! great job
On my 1 year old ender 5 , Anyone know what causes control screen to start beeping and screen keeps changing all on its own??? not one video on this... its driving me nuts... printer was working perfect...i un did and reconnected all wires on harness ,but still continues to beep .. shut off and restarted 3-4 times and it does still print.... found a couple of videos,but no information on fixing it... any help is appreciated...
It sounds to me that something is wrong with the display itself. It could possibly be that it's falsely detection something touch it. I'd probably just replace it.
I wouldn't back it. I would wait for them to get it produced and perfected before considering buying it. I do wish them luck in getting it produced.
I agree with you, but I'm getting thr flash sale of 339 with shipping to the ME. If I buy it with the MSRP and then pay for shipping, that would easily surpass $1000.
I pray JGMaker do make changes to this printer.
@@othmanalghafri9821 flash sale where do you see this? They have already addressed many of the problems reported by beta testers( YT)
@@Fleshybitz This was their flash sale price on Kickstarter, and without much hesitance I backed it. The flash sale is only for the first 500 units.
@@othmanalghafri9821 yes missed that, lucky you
@@othmanalghafri9821 do not worry, we will upgrade that
This is a great video. That reminds me of the Anet A8 extruder. Would be nice to use a much better system. Maybe design one to use the Orbiter. Would give you a better grip. These printers feel really cheap.
Do you think it is possible to replace the extruders? maybe to Bondtech Dual Drive ?
It's absolutely possible. You'd have to make new mounts though and adjust your steps/mm in Marlin.
@@kerseyfabs thanks 👍
Hahaha Kris wears "Back to the Future" tee shirt to announce table of contents so viewers can jump to the future of the video :-)
+1 Easter egg points. Well done!
We are trying to reconstruct a x5s in idex mode... Still on the firmware stuck :)
Send me an e-mail if it's something specific.
PErfect, thanks for your test. i Hope JGmaker will find a solution before the launch or on the pro version?
I hope so too.
what do you think about the artist d pro option that was just released
That's a tough one. Honestly, I need to see a fix for this problem first. BUT, for the money, it's not a bad upgrade. You couldn't upgrade those yourself for that price.
was tempted but after seeing this honest review unless they get thier act together on the extruder issue its a none starter, had similar on a dual extruder single nozzle where the replacement was worse than the first i returned, thankfully i had amazons backing and fully refunded,wont have that with this, so unless you have money to burn i would wait and see what happens next
I will have an update on this soon. I did a lot of testing last night. 😅
@@kerseyfabs yes please please give us an update. I'm scrambling trying to figure out whether I should pull pledge. Did JG Maker respond like professionals and take your feedback constructively? Will they, can they fix these serious issues? Are there any solutions. Is the extruder design a fail? Please let us know what you've uncovered
Will do! And to answer one of your questions, no, I have not heard from them directly but that may be due to the Chinese holiday.
If you compare the printer to the TENLOG TL-D3PRO, I do not see any advantage. You get the TENLOG TL-D3PRO for about 410€ (including tax and shipping) from EU-Warehouse from AliExpress - so the Kickstarter-Project is not cheaper. But the TL-D3PRO has some advantages:
- more than 1 year available now.
- Constantly improved. Actual: Titan-Style extruders, 2208 TMC, dual z-Endstops, optical Endstops on x and z. 7 Axis ( x1, x2, y, z1, z2, e0, e1). Touchscreen.
Have not bought it now - but have seen no negative test now. Only you might check some screws after transport.
So I do not understand why a quite simular printer in the same price-range is done as a kickstarter project. If you want an IDEX in this size, simply buy it.
Coupling both z-Axis is necessary on an IDEX. Best of course with two z endstops like in the TL-D3PRO. It's not about skipped steps while printing (If this is happening, your problem is deeper and should be solved first), but mosty accedently pushing a side down while printer is powered of.
While single Extruder can compensate for a slight tilt of the x-axis using ABL, ABL never works on an IDEX in duplicate or mirror mode. In this modes an IDEX only can use manual leveling - and x-axis and bed have to be perfectly parallel.
This is one of the reasons why I am not convinced by combining IDEX and bedshaker design and will neither buy the kickstarter-printer nor the TL-D3PRO. Not being able to do ABL in a large bed meens using a very thick bed (for example 9mm aluminium), so I would prefere a stationary (or maybe z-moving) bed. Something like a Voron with stationary bed, perfectly flat, and the x/y kinematik moving in z.
Did you check the set screws on the extruder gears?
I almost backed it but it was this or anycubic mono x and the mono won out.
Understood. I bought the Mono X too. 😉
Do you see any chance for a manual extruder upgrade to a better direct extruder?
I just realized this comment was on the JGMaker review. I may revisit this machine with an extruder replacement.
Hi can you do a review between the TL-D3 PRO vs JGMAKER ARTIST-D
I'd be interested in doing that but I'd have to get a review unit. It's about a $500 unit and I don't have the money set aside for that at the moment. Feel free to contact them and let them know you'd be interested.
I don't particularly like ribbon cables, they can be folded and crease too easily
Thanks for the review! Can you provide the custom firmware that you built?
At this point, I'll have to locate it. I also don't know if it's compatible with the shipping printer.
also I wonder how much the nozzle design affects everything, 3dmn did drill a nozzel open and it showed that the ptfe tube doesn't only goes down to the hotend but actually right up to the nozzle th-cam.com/video/UKbAQJHtTBE/w-d-xo.html
Thanks for the link. The nozzle could be affecting how well it's able to push filament through if it's creating a lot of resistance trying to heat the filament fast enough. One more thing for me to test.
@@kerseyfabs Those nozzles do come apart. Last night in the live Artist-D stream they showed how the brass nozzle can be screwed off from the custom throat.
I'll check it out. Thanks!
I don't think many of us want to test a new nozzle design, especially one with a PTFE tube in the middle I like the idea of a quick change, but not this
I like the t shirt, but I don' like the image of the ender 5. An image of a more generic 3d printer would have been better.
I've thought of adding other options with different printers. Thoughts?
@@kerseyfabs Hypercube Evolution. It is Open Source and doesn't belong to a company
Hi Chris. Complete review. I liked it. I went ahead and backed it on kickstarter anyway. I was thinking of tearing both of the hot end/extruder assemblies off and using E3D Hemera's, my only concern was the interface between the ribbon cable and the hot end/extruder assembly. Your video gave me the confidence to roll the dice. Looks like a tinkerers delight with just a horrible extruder. You've gained a sub. Thanks.
Glad it was helpful! I've thought the same thing about swapping out the extruders. You may end up having to mount the breakout board on the extruder to handle wiring nicely.
This printer would be great with 2 Biqu H2 version 2's
I still need to test a V2 at some point. But, you may be right.
I never seen anyone calibrate e-steps through hotend. Actually everything you read tells you not to do that because your results will not be consistent. But you have the TH-cam channel not me. So you do you.
Sure, you can first calibrate the extruder using the "open air" method to get a baseline of what it should be. But then, when you actually put the filament through the nozzle, the results should be the same. If they're not then your extruder isn't extruding the same amount of material each time and you're going to get inconsistent prints. The job of the extruder is to extrude the amount it was told to. For reference, all of the printers I use regularly have no problem doing this.
Can an ender 3 or 5 be turned into idex
Technically yes. The real challenge are the carriages. I've thought about getting a CNC so I could start working on things like that. Would people be interested?
I would be interested in that.
@@kerseyfabs would be interested as well
@@kerseyfabs Me also
@@kerseyfabs Yes I would be interested in that.
As of right now I have 4 theories as to why these extruders may perform so inaccurate.
1. The hot swap nozzle design doesn’t allow for proper contact with the heater block, limiting heat transfer and leaving the nozzle at a lower temperature as set, which could limit filament flow.
2. The ptfe tube runs down a little too far into the nozzle, acting as an insulator and only leaving a tiny amount of space for the filament to properly melt in.
3. Too low of a motor driver current set at the potentiometer on the stepper driver. This would lead to some skipped steps, even if it’s just a little too low.
4. The stepper motors have a very bad step accuracy.
Sadly never will back a kickstarter again
I completely understand.
I agree Henry. I would say it would be better for them to get it perfected and then maybe I would buy based on that.
Why? Even if you calculate to exchange the extruders and the hotends it would be a great price. I don't back it only, because I don't like bed slingers.
Been burned by kickstarters too often
Yeah, like me, you're probably never get another JGMaker 3D Printer to review after this video. They like fan-boy reviewers that skip over details with unicorns and rainbows.
I take these reviews very seriously. I hope they see the value in the information I provided and make any improvements necessary. I want awesome printers for the hundreds or thousands of people that back this product. I still wish them well and I would love to see the shipping product.
@@kerseyfabs hello kersey, do not worry about that, we have heard your voice and will make some improvement based on your review
no love for the big guys 3xl is all u got
I'm sorry to hear that. This is Amazon's selection and I don't have any control over it. If I ever do an actual screen-printed run, I'll be sure to have some bigger shirts made for you!
Worst bed leveling I have ever experienced .
Agreed!
@@kerseyfabs the fact they expect you to rehome, eye ball the adjustment of the z screw and re-level over and over and no micro-steps for the middle , ridiculous.
I got this printer free so I am not complaining. It's very hard to level like you said.. Once I got it leveled I didn't touch it. Still working without an issue. I want to replace the loud fans though.
Hello sir,
Did you ever figure out the problem with the extruders?
Take a look: th-cam.com/video/qdkTuZ0V1cc/w-d-xo.html
FPC cables like these are designed to move, they should be alright; to the extent that they can wear out, they seem off-the-shelf rather than custom, so you shouldn't have an issue with replacements.
I also think the connection between the two Z rods shouldn't cause any issues and can correct drift. When the motors are unpowered, and then powered again after reset, they first relax and then snap back to the nearest full step. But this can introduce drift or offset, that can gradually grow, because one of the sides can be lower friction or heavier than other, and so slide down the screw more, and eventually the x-gantry can turn just enough around the y-axis and bind up. I think motors helping each other maintain torque can only be a good thing. The connection introduces technically an overconstraint, but i think once zeroed in and running well, it should never cause issues again and can help prevent some, and the belt is pliable enough for this not to be a hard overconstraint. Perhaps a better solution is ABL with individual Z stepper drivers, but then they simply ran out of motor slots on this board.
The little radial fan targeting the control PCB is interesting, but seems to be missing the corresponding intake opening on the bottom chassis. Ideal would be a separated chamber with axial fan on the outlet and some holes on the opposite side of the board, so that the air is forced to only pass through the board, one intake, one outlet. Or alternatively just a bigger axial fan blowing on top the control PCB with direct intake from the outside, though this introduces packaging issues with heatsinks and wires sprouting up from the PCB. Then in either case another 40mm axial fan at the back would be unnecessary. However the way they put it together it will work fine.
I too like the Marlin LCD, they're a time-proven solution and adequate to the tech at hand. I want to actually rewrite the status screen so you can change everything you see and jog the printer right from there. What i don't want to see is the Robin TFT touchscreen, because it slows down the firmware when it updates the screen.
Robin board seems like a nice opportunity to put THB6128 or LV8729 to use. I understand that such a printer is still under some cost pressure, so equipping it full of Trinamic might not be viable.
I have a feeling about the general direction of the extrusion issue. I mean, if you look at standard MK8 extruder, it works actually very well. If you're printing flex, you want dual sided extruder, but if you're just printing ABS, ASA, PETG, you don't even care, a standard alu MK8 with idler preload screw is plenty, and PLA is forgiving towards even less fortunate constructions. I suspect the issue is that the extruder as you got it now is very sensitive to filament fit and width variations. For example when you retract, then later the same filament is pushed through extruder again, but this time it's misshapen, slightly more oval, flattened by the previous run in the extruder, and also it comes with different ovality and diameter right off the roll, slightly, even though manufacturers maintain very constant filament extrusion in terms of g/m, so you want the idler to provide the same amount of pressure, regardless of apparent filament width at the idler. You can't hard clamp the filament, you can't replace the spring with a screw, because it will make the issue worse - the extruder will only be more sensitive to filament shape variation. Spring force (Hooke's Law) is F=-kd where d is displacement from relaxed spring state, by what length the spring is compressed, and k is spring constant, and you want F to be constant, so a must is to preload the spring heavily, make d large in steady state, so that delta-d imparted by the filament shape change is small. Similarly you shall find that the spring k constant shouldn't necessarily be high, so it's MUCH better to take a lighter, longer spring, and preload it by a substantial length, than to take a harder spring which seems of right length, in fact high k constant can be an enemy, if it doesn't allow you to achieve enough displacement d before other issues such as binding occur, so it might well be that the stock spring is too short and too hard, which they did to enable screw release of the filament at such little footprint. You also don't really want the force to be too high, as you can crush the filament in the extruder and elongate it, and since you're propelling a certain length as a stand-in for volume of material you want to deposit, the result is underextrusion. An additional issue can be collisions and friction, that the idler simply hard stops against something with certain filament shapes, or if the idler binds up, or if the filament rubs on some kind of hard edge, and it seems like this extruder may be extremely sensitive to manufacturing tolerances, because the sliding fit between parts has to be pretty spot on, and god forbid you get a burr or even a filament shaving (an eventual inevitability) in between there. You should be able to play around with the extruder assembly and a piece of filament in your hand and identify the issue by feel and sight. If it is this sensitive to debris, then as the sliding surfaces wear down, it might actually become worse, as the idler slider can become prone to turn and wedge itself solid. The standard alu MK8 is slightly ambivalent in its design, because it has that 2x force amplification built into the idler lever, which seems nice, but it also amplifies delta-d which is nominally bad; but it also allows for large enough preload d, so it ends up being OK, and it's pretty resilient to binding and only relies on the lever turning smoothly around a screw which is pretty well out of the way, so little goes wrong there.
i want to order one of your shirts, can you make them available in larger sizes?
They're available in 3XL for both men and women. I hope that's big enough. Thanks!
@@kerseyfabs its not......
@@inknoidian I'm sorry to hear that. 😔 This is an Amazon limitation. If I ever run my own shirts, I'll be sure to get some bigger ones.
Amazing reviews, just love the detail you go into. Also nice tee shirt :p
Thanks and glad you like it! amzn.to/2ENxwIm 😉