Sealed vs Ported Subwoofers: Which is Better?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ต.ค. 2019
- Ever wonder what the differences are between sealed vs ported subwoofers and which design is best? We discuss ALL of the pros and cons of each design and address the myth of "slow" vs "musical" subs and what is actually going on in those cases.
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#subwoofers #audiophile #bass - บันเทิง
The three musketeers, yous work so well together, loved every minute
I really enjoyed this video. It amazes me how much Matt & James know about subwoofers.
@Mark Godfrey O:
Gene mentioned the room transition frequency in our video and i see some were not sure what that is. The room transition frequency, Schroeder frequency, or room FS refers to a point at which the room transitions from modal to stochastic behavior.
Say what?
If you look at the measurements in a room you will see that from 20hz to 50hz the room goes from just one mode to a small handful of widely spaced modes. Then from 50hz to about 150hz the room rapidly transitions into many more peaks and dips, the number of modes increases dramatically. After this point the number of modes becomes so high and so dense that you simply can’t see the distinct effect anymore.
The point at which this transition takes place depends on the side of the room and how reverberant it is.
Stochastic means statistical and in simple terms it means that you can understand what the modes are in the room at any point in time or space via a statistical distribution. Further, if you took a sample of measurements with a mic in the same room and never moved the mic, you would find that every measurement (assuming fine enough resolution like little to no smoothing) is slightly different.
The stochastic zone is best treated differently than the modal zone. Modal zone is best treated with things like multiple subwoofers, optimal sub placement, bass traps, and modest EQ. The stochastic zone is best treated with a very different kind of optimal placement, a very different kind of acoustic treatment (such as less absorption, scattering, diffusion, normal reflection), and generally no eq. It’s also a critical region where what the microphone picks up no longer matches well with what our ears hear.
Appreciate the conversation and knowledge shared. I am just learning about these products and before jumping in I’d like to choose the right design for my living room.
Conclusion at 1:05:45 "If they are designed correctly, the efficiency advantage is worth it."
In other words you get more bang for buck with a ported sub (more output at say 16-24Hz for the money), and its shortcomings shouldn't be audible if you get one with good measured performance.
Great educational talk. I have heard both and if setup properly sound fantastic.
I liked this video a lot! Great job guys
I had been using ported subs my whole life, until a few years ago when i picked up a SVS SB-2000 to round out my current greatroom hometheater. All i can say is . . . WOW!
Sealed subs for the win!
This is funny, every time they're going to give their final thoughts they remember a special condition in a very specific set of circumstances and.... Away they go, off to the races again. At the very least six rounds of closing thoughts and if James had to choose one sub it/they would actually take up an entire wall and they wouldn't all be ported. Ported or sealed hmm. I've definitely made up my mind and concluded stick shift is better than an automatic transmission. Well except when there's a lot of traffic. However when driving on the freeway for the vast majority and you need to access the power to overtake a car stick shift. On second thought in an area with plenty of hills automatic transmissions are less stressful. Almost forgot, on performance tracks dual clutch transmissions are best and on mixed street and highway a continually variable speed transmission is the best compromise. Lol
You might say that the takeaway is that one design isn't entirely superior to the other; it depends on the circumstances of use. Manual vs automatic transmission is a pretty good analogy, actually, I wish I had thought of that!
@@jameslarson2277 couldn't agree more, I just had to throw in my two cents of sarcasm in after what almost felt like intentionally jerking me around with multiple closing thoughts. I appreciate how thorough and passionate these dudes are on a conversation topic which could carry on all night.
@@LouisGFranco James is one of these dudes ;)
@@FitraHomestead My apologies James, I wasn't sure didn't want to assume as to not make an (as the saying goes) ass out of myself. Failed miserably, thanks for the heads up @Audio Fun and thanks of course to @James Larsen, Mr. Larsen for taking the time to break down what specs we need to take into consideration and what we not waste our time and money on since they're not audible to the human ear or practically negligible and focus on what's really important to look for according to what our main listening entertainment needs are.
Louis Franco and as a 25th closing thought I’ll just add that sadly many of the specs of merit are not disclosed by manufacturers and when they are, may not be honest or comparable.
James noted the amplitude response is the main metric of merit in bass sound quality. That means the flatness and amount of extension a subwoofer provides is the biggest factor in sound quality. Related to that notion is how loud it plays. If the subwoofer begins to compress or distort, not only can that start to impact the response but we instantly get pulled out of the moment and begin paying attention to this non-linearity. So CEA-2010 is a very important metric, a frequency sweep in an anechoic environment is a very important metric, but few companies can or do provide this.
Then I added the issue of group delay. Clearly not as vital to sound quality as the response and loudness, but it matters none the less. Nobody provides that data. Thankfully we at Audioholics provide this information in our reviews.
P.s. I’m the other guy in the video next to James. We are passionate. Great fun at cocktail parties.
Nice session, the information was very technical but well detailed.
great technical discussion - very knowledgable. however, at the end of the day, it all comes down to listening to what sounds best for you, your music, and your room and system.
I recently did a song comparison with deep bass.
Setup 1) JL Audio 10W6v3 in JL's ported high output box w/ JLA 500/1 regulated amplifier
VS
Setup 2) JL Audio flagship 10W7AE in JL's sealed box w/ JLA HD750/1.
I love them both! The ported sub sounds so good and gets nice and deep BUT the sealed sub in my SUV has a TWK88 DSP where I turn down the 50hz, and boost the 35hz with PEQ.
This approach flattened the response much deeper that no PEQ on that sealed sub and guess what!?
It gets deeper than the ported, but at the expense of all the power of the amp (750W) throwing the high excursion 10W7 super hard at the low end, and it sounds so freaking good!
That in my option is by far the better option, if you have the money for high excursion and tons of power. Just look at JL's home theater subs. They're sealed with tons of power and DSP to flatten the response.
To see James become so animated describing his favourite subwoofers was really enjoyable. He stayed calm when Matt was poking him with a pointy stick about ported subwoofers being best, but when it came to his favourite subs, that was a different matter. Great discussion
The combination of Gene and Matt make the most interesting duo to listen too online regarding hifi. Keep up the good work
There are so many compromised and bad ported/band pass subwoofers in the market place that looking at ported performance from SVS, HSU or JL does not resonate (ha ha) with the public. While I love the measurements, what we needed to see was the averaged response from every sealed sub and every ported subwoofer ever sold. This would have made the argument a slam dunk for Matt. Then you could have shared the measurement data from SVS and HSU to show your audience that they should focus on the quality of their subwoofer purchase rather than the design type. Lastly would have loved to hear servo subs and the REL recommendation of using high level inputs rather than RCAs thrown in the discussion. Perhaps a part 2? Great video! Thumbs way up guys. Keep em coming.
It's nice that you mentioned it:the "ported vs sealed" debate seems to be all around subwoofers whereas most speaker designes, even in the high end range, prefer using some sort of ported design (bassreflex, PR, TL,..).
I'm pretty sure it's damping, not dampening. Unless you're talking about sub(marine)woofers.
I've had both over the years. For LFE for watching movies, a good ported one will satisfy. For music, I think sealed sounds tighter, accurate and generally more pleasing to listen to.
@Melvin Ace no, we don’t
Absolutely - sealed all the way
When hugo left, some of the magic of this channel went with him. This is my favorite video in awhile. Keep up content like this please. This is similar to home theater geeks, which I miss so much..
I miss my namesake too
Well Gene, you were honest upfront. "Welcome back my friends to the show that never ends".
Hey guys thanks for the info. Question for you all. I'm using sealed subs now (SVS SB12-NSD), but my full range speakers (Pioneer Elites by Andrew Jones) have ports in the back. Should I plug those ports on the mains and surrounds so the entire 7.3.4 system is comprised of sealed speakers? The AVR crossover is set to 100hz now.
What about servo controlled subs? The pro and cons of this design . Love here your thoughts.
what is a con to servo control other than cost and one more thing that can break?
It’s a very old system , servo subs are nothing short of awesome. Arnie nudell (infinity) used to experiment with it. I believe the infinity sigma has servo controlled woofers.
Problem is indeed cost and prone to failure expensive to fix
@@MichelLinschoten I've had my share of experiences with Servo Subs. When done right, they can be very clean accurate and cocussive.Main drawback is that the really good ones are very expensive.to purchase.
Pro: MUCH more friendly to cheaper drivers
Cons: when the amp runs out of gas, the distortion from the amp plus driver is 🤮
When I was shopping for subwoofers, I read more than once that ported subs provided powerful bass best suited to home theater systems and watching movies. But ported subs can be too boom-y for music. If music is the primary interest, than a sealed sub fits the system better. I listen mostly to music, so I got two SVS SB2000’s and they compliment my system well.
That's false factually and only true in people's opinions. Ported subs are more than fine for music.
Depends on the music. If you listen to Rap, R&B, Techno or electro music then a ported sub is better.
Your sealed sub has less output power in the region of 20 - 40hz. It‘s just not as loud as a ported at the same power level. You just don‘t hear you sub and that is why you and other think it‘s blends better with your speakers for music. If your ported sub is to loud or to boomy, just turn it down or just set it right. Besides the size, there is no advantage of a sealed sub.
Hi, Gene, I improved sound of my PSB 6i subwoofer a lot simply by putting a marble plate (15x17 inch) on top of the subwoofer. It improved the boominess a lot. My sub was tested by Sound&Vision to be a good sub to begin with. The improvement cab easily heard. I have no way to measure it. If you see this message, please try it and measure it in terms of FR and distortion. Thanks,
Very good discussion. Imo James makes a crucial point, the gist of which was something like this: "What matters most to the ears is the [in-room] frequency response." Factor in room gain and a "flat-measuring" ported sub may well have too much output down low, which tends to sound slow and/or boomy. But room gain is insufficient to offset the rolloff of a sealed sub below its resonant frequency, so a sealed box sub usually needs EQ.
In my opinion the correct target curve for subwoofer design would take into account anticipated room gain, and based on my modelling that's easier to achieve with a ported box. Matt's description of the ported sub in his room (low tuned, undersized for the woofer) sounds like it MIGHT be designed like this, but I can't tell from afar without knowing a lot of specifics.
If you do multisubs and run into the issue of too much very low bass, because the subs are located within a relatively small fraction of a wavelength if one another and are therefore approximately in-phase, one solution is to simply reverse the polarity of one of the subs. If necessary, pull the driver and switch the wires.
I love all 3 of these dudes ♥️👍
have you done the isolator video?
I've built a ~400 lb steel subwoofer enclosure, top-firing, and used bicycle seat springs to isolate it from the hardwood floor (2.75" thick floor including subfloor). I'm not sure if I completely wasted my time...
Excellent discussion.
I like the idea of the sub isolators video!
Love the videos Gene! I have heard you say that you apply HPF's to your sealed subs to match the roll off of your ported subs. I understand that this is to keep them relatively phase aligned so they don't cancel each other. I don't know enough about EQ, but could an all pass filter on the sealed subs work in your situation? The idea being to get the phase shift you need to keep them aligned to your ported subs but without sacrificing their low end
Yes absolutely but most products don't have that feature. In all honesty, the best policy is to use the same bass alignment for ALL subs to avoid this even being an issue. Good point.
I've never used a sealed sub but I recently built an auxiliary sub to go with my BIC pl200 sub for my home theater because I had a spare 100w plate amp. So I grabbed a cheap Cerwin Vega XED 10 an stuck it in a .88 cf box, it tossed a nice little bump to other side of the room, anywho I plopped it in my minivan to compare to my Polk db12 on a 200+w amp, it was eye opening. The sealed had nice tight sound but not much boom and it lapped up every watt in my amp and wanted more and my ported 12 bumps with the same wattage. I'll say for efficiency to best results per watt ported hands down...for music with moderate but clean smooth sound sealed hands down. Now the sound of big wattage to big multiple woofers? Never experienced that I'd assume as much low bass as you would ever need...
Now I see the difference between a PORTED and SEALED sub,very informative.Next time can you compare a FRONT FIRING sub vs a DOWN FIRING sub! Thanks
Appreciate your time fellas, good knowledge from all of you...learned a lot
Hmmm... so if I added (2) svs sb1000 with my (2) svs pb1000 I could possibly have the best of both worlds? Do people do that; mix ported & sealed?
Great discussion basically more sub the better but i am in Australia and we get ripped off so i can only afford one sub for now my room 7 meters long and 5 meters wide and i cant choose between the svs 2000pro ported or the rel 1205 thoughts and help ?
Speaking on the small size sealed sub. I have the sunfire xteq 8 sub and its made not to roam the room while active and it dont.
Nothing about QTC or bass reflex alignments and how they compare? I think this is probably the most important aspect on subwoofers. But I will say you have covered this in some of your articles although it would of been nice to hear it covered in this vid.
I just wanted to ask though can’t we plug the ports for a ported sub so it sounds like a sealed subwoofer. So I could buy a pb-3000, with the port plugs, and so when I want to listen to music, I could seal the sub, so I could get to at least close to what the sealed version would give me, while it is not possible to add ports to a sealed sub woofer.
Which video has the info about what hardware to buy for subwoofer isolation?
I've moved towards higher end sealed subs over the years for multiple reasons. One being size and ease of reselling.
24:24 I think by "slower" they mean you get a more "air-y" sound, like it's not as punchy because it gets that opening to let the air escape. - I can use guitar-cabinets as an example, or heck, even headphones; When you have an open back cabinet or headphone cans it just sounds more "open" as well. As in, you get a sound that "escapes" or spreads more, which does give you a "grander" sound, BUT, it's also not as direct and, as said, punchy. Which probably has people arguing that ported subwoofers respond more slowly and have this kind of air-y cusion-y sound. Which I can believe. I only have subwoofers that are ported, I think... But the ones I've used most definitely are quite... "soft". Like they might be able to thud, but they definitely seem like they deliver less pressure in a way. Again, they have that port for the pressure to escape through. - One fun feature is that when you have a port on the front that is up high enough, you get somewhat of a wind-effect during explosions and such, and not just the sound or vibrations. XD
Can you bench the SB 4000 sub on your website? I think its output is way the same as the JL E112.
What about feeling the base, I enjoy that more then hearing it, what’s better on that point?
I had a choice between a single PB16 and dual SB16....
I chose dual SB16, so hopefully both of those together can dig down and hit those lower frequencies.
They should be arriving any day now.
What was your impression of them? I have 2xsb4000 and I love them but feel they struggle a bit at certain times. In the end I had to accept that you can't just crank a sealed sub up until the room almost caves in, they weren't meant for that, but they still rock.
I have the Martin Logan Balanced Force 210. What are your thoughts about this sub?
Now in this video they say to not mix and match sealed and ported subs because it can do more harm than it will do good in the sound bass department. But can i mix the sealed sb16 ultra sub with the ported pb16 ultra sub? They are both the same subwoofer driver. Would this be fine to get the best of both worlds? Or is it still best to stick with all the same units?
Do a video with SB 3000 vs PB 3000, great for compare sealed vs ported. I have two SB 3000 and i love they, amazing sub.
Slightly smaller SB 2000's for me, as we have a very small viewing/listening area, and these little babies make the walls flex, with zero boom or one note bass. Sealed subs are the way to go.
@@classicgalactica5879 Yes, i love sealed and love much more the svs hahahahah
Still love your SB3000? I am wondering if I should get rid rid of my 10" Klipsch for a pr of sb 2k or 3ks
@@Sky1 Yes i love the sb 3000 :)
Hi, I am very curious about the brand of Matt's Headphones. Any clues ? tia
So, to keep things simple with EQ, I should just go with sealed so that it is more easily intergrated with my home theater set up?
Face down driver means that any sag of the cone, due to gravity - is more symmetrical.
Sealed designs need more stiffness and more bracing, though this is largely moot, because they can be smaller. A larger box is harder to keep from resonating.
I enjoyed the part about passive radiator subs. My Boston Acoustics VPS-210 just kicked the bucket after 11 years and I was bummed! The VPS-210 had a passive radiator and it did vibrate all over the damn place. But I would have to say it sounded amazing for music and got decently low for a 10”. I loved that sub, but I am excited to hear the SB-2000 pro I just ordered. I don’t have a ton of experience with subs, so I am anxious to compare them.
So how was the SB2 pro?
@@demonreturns4336 I love it. It’s better for movies, but not as musical as the VPS-210.
@@michaelwright9101 oh wow very interesting
Thanks for the feedback 🙏
I have 3060s q acoustics sub. What's the upgrade then ? Pb 2000 Pro or sb 2000 in room 4x4meters. I'm listening to music playing games and watching movies.
Is having very bad bass performance on the SR8012 due to having one sealed and one ported sub?
Which type will produce more tactile response?
What I find really interesting, is that harmonics ride frequencies lower than them. Meaning inaudible (sub-sonic) frequencies could give a harmonic volume boost to higher audible sounds, which may be one of those hidden perceptions of preference people are always talking about. Kind of an interesting thing to think about in relation to phase coherence through the crossover network and then the sub integration. Would we want to optimize for these harmonics, or reduce them? Is the optimal position for our sub going to cause destructive interference harmonically, by being in the wrong place at the wrong time?
SwirlingDragonMist if our body can have a “memory” that conflicts with our conscious mind, then the feeling perceived by the body during listening would have some input compared to what the ears can detect. In my truck Rockford put vibration things on the seats. Even though I know they’re there, I almost forget about it and it just feels like good bass. So I think these things combined provide plenty of reason to take the inaudible fq into account.
@@cardiobroker Very interesting! I believe much of our fascination with musical beats is from hearing our mother's heartbeat while we are in the womb. Particularly correlating elevated heart rates and oxytocin from when our mom was... excited.
Can you do a talk an the brands that do the dual Push Pull drivers (dual opposed drivers?) such as M&K MX-350THX, Perlisten D212, Rythmik G25hp. What other brands? Im not talking Iso-baric design.
What about sealed subwoofer with passive radiator, instructions uncleared, sold my house and bought the biggest subwoofer I could find and now I sleep inside it :)
What would you pick for a sealed sub that is better than the rythmik f18? I am leaning towards that as my top end for size and cost
I know i'm probably late to the party but just saw this. The Rhythmic F18's are fantastic. You can read my user review here if interested.... tomsmultiinterest.com/av-equipment-reviews-2#011607d5-050f-4852-bafb-ac628805104d or here ... www.avnirvana.com/threads/holy-subwoofers-batman-a-end-user-review-of-the-rythmik-f18-18-sealed-box-subwoofer.3873/
Great video, it is very germane to me. My winter project is to build a subwooofer enclosure. My first question is: If you put several ports, like 3, can the ports be turned to different frequencies to extend the response of the subwoofer over a greater range of frequencies?
I am not using a plate amplifier because I have 2 old receivers on hand which I am not using. Will a receiver drive a passive subwoofer from one of its main outputs directly, or do I need to use Low Pass filter? The receivers have low voltage subwoofer inputs.
Steve Bonin in practice it won’t work that way. The ports basically act as one but by changing the length slightly you get a slightly different and unpredictable set of resonances. Think of the port as a high Q peaking filter. Then imagine mixing three together. Now imagine the net response is the frequency of each is slightly different. This is what happens. Some people use it as a means to widen the Q of the port tuning, but it’s not a common practice and for a reason. The final result can be a sub with much higher group delay, unpredictable performance, and no meaningful improvement in room performance.
You can use passive radiators, change weights to change tuning
@@PoesAcoustics Thanks Matt, I figured it was something like that...akin to putting resistors in parallel in an electrical circuirt
Steve Bonin yeah that is a way of thinking about it. Though in parallel is probably a better analogy. When you put three ports into an enclosure of a fixed length and diameter, and it’s the same for all of them, they work together the same as a port of that depth but with an area equal to the total area is all the ports together. It’s like making the port diameter larger, and if you don’t lengthen the port, the tuning frequencies dramatically increases.
When you put three ports in a box and you vary their length you see that same basic behavior, but you also see some perturbation of the frequency from the contribution of each port. It’s sort of like lowering the Q, but the actual response of the ports looks more like a Trimodal response with three distinct peaks.
I have no idea what would happen if you built a sub with three ports and they were dramatically different sizes. I’m sure it can be modeled in PSpice.
Now if what you want is to take advantage of these resonant devices to extend the bandwidth and output of a system with excursion control over a wider range, take a look at the ABC box. It’s a form of 8th order bass reflex box with two distinct tuning frequencies and this excursion nulls. Of course, no free lunch, it’s group delay is much higher than normal and there is a null in the response.
FSXgta⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻ he had something else in mind. He wanted three tunings at the same time. But that is a nice thing about PR’s in DIY subs. You can change the tuning at will. See what sounds best to you in your room.
I am thinking about getting a sub for my Martin Logan 40 which i use for the front and the Slim xl for the rear.I am contemplating on between Svs ps -2000 and the Martin Logan 1100 x subwoofer.Which one is better for my speakers?Please any opinion and ideas will be welcome.
Nana O the only criteria that matters in matching subwoofer to mains is the loudness capability of the mains and subwoofer. Why do I say this, it’s literally written into the CEA-2034a measurement standard.
In other words, either subwoofer is fine. What you want is to have at least 10dB of headroom between the subs and main. While I believe this is not the most reliable metric, if you take the sensitivity and power handling, go to a loudness calculator online and type in the numbers.
So let’s say we have a speaker with a sensitivity of 88dB at 2.83v at 1 meter. We typically have two speakers. We have a power handling of 200 watts (and a real 200 watt amplifier), then we have a max output at 1 meter of 114dB. However, we need to take away about 3-6dB to account for compression and I would go to the higher number since most companies aren’t super honest in these figures. That puts us at 108dB. The. We want to find a subwoofer that can produce at least 118dB in the range between 50hz and 100hz. We can go to an Audioholics review to figure that out.
Now let’s use your example. 300 watts and 92dB. You come to 114dB after accounting for compression, or about 105dB if powered by a typical receiver instead of beefcake 300 watt per channel amp. That means you need a subwoofer capable of between 115 and 125dB in this bass range i previously mentioned. Having measured the 1100x recently I know that neither it or the SVS can quite do that but are both very close and roughly equal performers (SVS trades the midbass output for more deep bass extension).
The appropriate match is actually a pair of these subs.
You will notice I didn’t pick one over the other. It is because I think they aren’t so different. One isn’t a better sub than the other. The SVS has more deep bass output but less midbass output. As I noted in the video, very little bass content exists below 70hz, certainly very little is below 50hz.
One thing I really love about the ML is it’s app. The app includes ARC which works great and is very easy to setup. You can do it all using just the phone. The phone even acts as the measurement mic. I confirmed its accuracy and objective/subjective effectiveness. Call me a fan!
I don’t believe the SP-2000 has an app but I believe the SB-3000 does. I also think the SB-3000 is the more comparable subwoofer to the ML. James and I plan to do a video comparison since we each have a sample of one of these subs.
@Matthew Poes ,Thank you very much!You have explained a lot things in detail.I have owned a couple speakers but the physics,theory, and the practical side of it is difficult for me to understand.I am still a baby when it comes the the audio world but i really appreciate your input.Thanks again for taking your time to explain it.
Did Matt & James ever do that video on how to build the floor sub isolator ?
I would love to see it
PS where is Matt and James site?
Hey there! I was really hoping that someone could tell me what is the most affordable sub that earns the coveted Audioholics "Bassaholic Extreme" rating? Thanks!!
Thomas Fox monolith they reviewed all their subs with great score ..
I wish you guys would have mentioned the Sonos Sub. I live in a condo now days and I have a sonos system but no sub. The lady who lives below me is 87. Im pretty sure her hearing is going and I'm about to buy a sub. Is the sonos sub good or bad cuz I went to Best Buy and they didn't have it hooked up.
(My last subs were a ported 12" alpine and a sealed 13.5" JL W7)
Of course the Sonos Sub is not good. www.avsforum.com/threads/sonos-sub-what-are-the-real-specs.2090930/ "The Sonos sub uses 2 6'' woofers in a ported push pull configuration enclosure. Based on the enclosure and the size of the port, I'd say the tuning is around 45Hz with a -3dB of 40Hz. Sonos uses some good amount of bass EQ boost on their speakers to extend bass response, and most likely they applied some bass boost based on what I heard. I'd guess it is a 3-6dB boost at around 50Hz to make it sound powerful since boosting below the tuning frequency is pretty much useless."
I use a Sonos sub in my living room to supplement the ceiling speakers for casual distributed audio. It’s fine for that. I’d never put it in my home theater. I have Hsu for that.
How about Isobaric Loading of "twin bass" drivers ? Plus, Does that arrangement (Isobaric) work well in a Ported Design (to include a 'Transmission Line')verses a Sealed Box ?
Yes it does, the benefit is alot of output from smaller box, but imo it's better to give each subwoofer it's own box and run duals. This way you smooth out the frequency response in a room
I would intend to run Dual Woofer Enclosures , regardless.@@FSXgta
@@RoaroftheTiger if I was building this, I would do dual opposed sealed or ported/Tline to cancel out cabinet vibration. Isobaric is good if you have limited space though, but a little more tricky to build
Space can be a huge issue. Since ported are much larger than sealed, at what point does a sealed sub outperform a ported sub at the low fq range for which a ported sub otherwise excels? For example, does at SB3000 (or SB4000) outperform a PB2000 Pro with the low rumble element? Perhap a metric like cubic volume of sealed box x power = ported sub cubic volume x power. Or must the excursion also increase? I would pay more for an SB3000 over a PB2000pro if it performed about the same. I want to feel my movies, but don't want the size if I can avoid it.
I know this is a bit late, but I just ran across this channel today. I've seen larger subs, usually 15"+, having more than one port, up to 3 ports, in a single box. Does this add more challenge to tuning the box or is this as simple as taking the measurements for a single port & dividing it over the number of ports wanted? Apologies, if this is too much of a newbie question. Just getting into the DIY system building scene, since "go big or go home" is my mantra. :)
Yes pretty much. Instead of one huge long port you would have three smaller shorter ones to add up to the big one. Like you said, the three smaller ports would be the same as if it were just one or two. There is math involved. Depending on the subwoofer, the size of the enclosure and the desired box tuning the port has to be a certain size and length. For example you can have the same two boxes and sub. One can have two ports of a size and length and the other just one larger port of the correct length and it will have the same sound characteristics. Some larger boxes have up to 3 outlets. You will notice the subs are usually 15" and the box is larger. Some 12s have two ports, some only one. They are smaller to fit the required length or box dimension. It's mostly to make it look more beefy or powerful but it does the same thing. like I said it depends on those things and the space available in the box or the desired look etc. But you do have to know how it all works together and all types of things. It can sound just as good with one port as it will with three or two. More holes just adds a little more cool factor to it. The best ports are the ones that are flared on both ends luke a trumpet because the don't allow air turbulence and noise to be heard. If a port is too small then the air velocity increases and do dies the chance of shuffling. That is the unwanted sound of air in the port that can interfere with the sound of the music. A larger port will have slower air speed and reduce air noise and less chance of shuffling.
I’d like to hear more of your thoughts about servo subs.
Servo is the way you go, end of story. Once you go servo, you'll never go back. Very accurate, clean, and tight. The best affordable brand is Rythmic. I have the f18 and it's amazing.
Good discussion, but James was very difficult to listen to. I feel for him because he has trouble speaking publically.
It’s not that he has trouble speaking publicly
I think k the stuttering is a thing he can’t control…. Just the way he was born so I dont understand why some comments down below were making fun
It would be like making fun of a guy for being born 5’5 tall when it’s nothing he can control
One thing I try to do in life is to never make fun of people for things they didn’t choose or have any co girl over in their life
Making a cabinet right now with a couple ported holes and then I'm going to get some foam and make it sealed pending out if I'm watching movies or I'm just listening to typical 80s rock music
What about transmission-line enclosure?
Thank you all for nerding out on this subject. I think that all bass playback - is the toughest part of playback of music.
Another aspect with subwoofers - is how low the main speakers are going to play. If the sub only needs to cover the bottom octave (20-40Hz) than it can be designed to do that; without having to cover what is needed to blend with a smaller main speaker. Which brings up another issue - for a music system, at least - is the phase blending of a subwoofer(s) with the main speakers; based on the different distances from the speaker to the listener.
The moving mass of a woofer driver has a lot to do with the transient response - and with the settling time.
Drums have a lot of low bass. A 5 or 6 (or 7) string electric bass guitar hit about 31Hz on the open bottom string. A 4 string bass hit ~41Hz on the open bottom string.
Not a great idea to limit subs to only 40Hz. Ideally you want multi-sub strategically located around the room to tame modal behavior for the entire bandwidth of non-directional bass (80Hz and lower).
@@Audioholics I am suggesting that a sub could be optimized to play the bottom octave, and to be rolled off above that so that it can have less compromise in its coverage. But some small main speakers really need the sub to play to 150Hz of even 200Hz, so that type of sub would have to make different choices in design.
I have a 8 year old klipsch 110 SW is it ported or sealed?
I have a Paradigm ps1000v3 which is a 10" driver, but if you google images you'll notice that the driver isn't visible on any of the six faces of the cube! All it has is 3 ports on the back. Would you catagorize this with "normal" ported designs, and do you know how the driver is actually positioned in the box?
That is a bandpass subwoofer.
@@PoesAcoustics Oh wow, I googled that and it's a whole thing, thank you
Andrew McAdam yup it’s a thing! We didn’t really address bandpass subs in any depth. It’s a really interesting design approach but with a lot of complexities to deal with. Hard to design.
One major benefit is that over a limited frequency range (bandwidth) they are very efficient. Designed correctly this bandwidth can cover 3 octaves or more with efficiency benefits over anywhere from .5 octaves to about 2 octaves.
A little known benefit is that because sound emanates into the room only through ports, they effectively filter out harmonic distortion. This when designed right, they are a higher fidelity and lower distortion option.
But all is not so simple. Ports themselves can actually generate distortion, though certainly not a lot. They are hard to get right and port noise can end up dominating the sound. You end up needing pretty big ports. Once the ports get big enough to address the noise issues you start getting a much larger box and port resonance issues. Most companies have abandoned them because of that. I’m still a fan. I’ll have an upcoming experiment based on a passive radiator bandpass design. Hopefully within a month.
Any advantage to stacking subs other than increase in headroom? Rel is a big advocate of that.
What about a small home studio? Sealed or ported?
I havent watched the whole thing yet, and I have still a pretty rudimentary understanding of sealed vs ported, but I always understood sealed has more accurate bass (didn't realize about the low end advantage), while ported required a lot less effort to create loud bass but the accuracy and/or subtle bass are not as good. Im guessing that this might apply more to the lower end and basic consumer stuff more? Like, I have heard sealed will only have beefy bass if the enclosure is larger *or* the drive is a lot more powerful/harder to drive. This probably doesn't affect high end market as much, as Im guessing sealed speakers and subs are expected to have more powerful drivers in there?
While a moderate consumer speaker with a adequate woofer that isn't too hard to drive, in a modest size/volume enclosure probably won't sound as beefy, but should sound pretty "fine" and accurate?
And a cheap ported sub (be it in some cheap PC speaker set or cheap soundbar) might sound loud but runs the risk of running more boomy and less refined?
My limited experience with Hifi speakers only consists of sealed and passive radiators, while I have mostly only heard cheaper or more affordable speakers or subs with ports, so that could also probably distort my understanding.
I don't believe you have heard a high quality well designed and built ported hi fi system and what it can sound like. If you live In or around south Florida I invite you to my house to hear my klipsch setup so you hear it. What people say is not true that it's not musical and all that. Not every ported system goes boom boom boom and that's it. You wont believe how just two 6.5" woofers and two titanium horns can sound and no exposed wires or sound source. They are magically playing out of thin air on the dresser. You will be dancing more than the speakers for sure. It's clear and loud and you hear every detail with all types of bass tones.
I've noticed fiberglass fill fibers building up on some of my speaker's grills in front of the ports. Could be a health concern, I usually use tape to remove the fibers from the grill fabric, noticed it on several different speaker models. Also of concern especially with vintage speakers from the 1980's ish is that the particle board can use adhesives that off-gass formaldehyde, even decades later. I wouldn't trust every manufacturer around the world to be sourcing their modern MDF to be free of formaldehyde either, even if the design calls for a higher grade, you never know what corners the outsourced manufacturer will cut. It's not uncommon for a high end paint or glue to be sold off by the manufacturer, and then substituted by a cheaper one bought locally. We saw that in the lead paint scandal a few years ago. Sealing a sub would keep allot of potential contaminants in the box, and the outer surfaces layered in veneer. Maybe formaldehyde levels should be a measured, reviewed spec? I also hear beryllium is pretty nasty stuff to work with too. Is there a regulatory agency that keeps up with potential exposure to consumers? I wouldn't worry too much about the drivers coming to pieces, but dust from the facility may be of concern.
wtf , ok,, smartest comment on here, for real.. thanks
i think most acoustic treatment type products inside speakers is that white synthetic wool type stuff. but wow interesting you found fiberglass on the grills. what speakers / era we talking about though w those?
he gene, ive been following your youtube channel for unbiased and quality audio reviews for a very long time.
totally off topic but i'm writing this to you in hopes that i'll get some help or rather some insight for the troubles im facing with my home theatre. its not much but for the budget I have now, I'm very happy with my current setup except for this one problem.
im currently using an Onkyo TX NR757 audio receiver with my optoma hd143x projector, and Ive recently purchased the amzon firestick 4K.
im aware that my projector is only FullHD and not 4k but my receiver however is listed as 4K ready receiver.
after ive plugged in my 4K firestick I was wondering if whether or not my amazon stick would consider my receiver as a 4K device and push through 4K content or will it consider my projector's setting of 1080P and only display a max of 1080P content.
to put it in brief, will my 4K ready receiver Onkyo TX NR757 feed my 1080P optoma hd143x (even if it displays downgraded 4k content) 4K content from the 4K firestick or not??
Anirudh Kokala the display needs to be 4K. Everything needs to be hdmi 2.0 and hdcp 2.2. If any device is not hdcp 2.2 the security handshake cannot take place and the stick won’t play 4K content. There exists products to address this but I can’t really endorse such a route.
@@PoesAcoustics hi, thanks a lot for your reply and I understand what youre saying but this is just a question that's been bugging me and also i'd like to increase my knowledge in this and hence the question.
so even if the receiver is 4k ready, when I play 4k titles on prime using my 4k firestick through the hdcp 2.2, it wont display the "UDH"on the screen like how it shows "HD 1080p" while streaming something? (althought I know that my projector wont display a 4K image, im just wondering if the stick will consider the receiver's 4K feature or check my projector's resolution through the receiver"
Anirudh Kokala it will not. Every piece of equipment in the signal path from player to display must be HDCP 2.2 (or at least the player must this this is true). It is “illegal” for the receiver to create an HDCP 2.2 handshake with the stick if the display is not HDCP 2.2 certified and compliant as well.
What this means is that as long as all the products you are using are legally built with proper HDMI certification, you need to add an HDCP 2.2 display to your signal path.
I’ll also add that HDCP 2.2 wasn’t adopted as part of 4K until late in the game. As such there exist 4K ready products and displays that can’t actually display or make use of 4K content. I own two such devices.
So to state more succinctly: you can’t do what you are trying to do. It won’t work. It is against the rules of HDMI.
Good job
Did you do the svs article ?
Just now watched, and no mention of subs that use passive radiators, and no mention of open baffle subwoofers they both have significant benefits worth addressing, I'm currently working on two subwoofer builds each with a 15in Dayton passive radiator an two 15in DVC subwoofers each one total size is a foot deep by 19.3in wide by 49in high so a bit tall and wide but very shallow, the benefit of radiator in custom built is sometimes a flexible foot print for the size and whight of the box... Gene I'd like to see you do an indepth review and discussion on the pros and cons of subs for ported vs sealed vs radiator vs open baffle both manufactured and diy custom built
They did mention Passive radiators and how the passives need to have double the cone area of the powered driver.
what about bandpass they are good if tuned properly too
I noticed something interesting...a few years ago SVS's website had an info page about their executive associates. Within this info, they told us what subwoofer they used in their home systems. Almost all of them were using a sealed design subwoofer.
I’d be more interested in what their audio engineers were using more than executives. Thanks for sharing though. That is interesting. I use both ported & sealed in two different systems without mixing them in each rig. 👍🏼😎
Wait, you show the sealed has having a lower response then the ported. I thought it was suppose to be the opposite? The sealed is the green line right.
At very low frequencies sealed does have more extension in most cases.
This is my thought on the matter. Ported vs. non-ported used to matter more than it does today. The issue with ported is that people say it will ring because it doesn't have the spring force of the compressed air behind the speaker cone. This used to matter, but with modern hi power servo class D amps the speaker has a lot of power to control the motion of the speaker, and you get the improved low end response - lower freq available for those few instances where it is part of the music. I vote for ported with the high power class D amps. I personally have the SB 13 Ultra (no longer being made), and it is great. I have one of the 3 ports plugged and it is tuned to, I think, 16 Hz.
I think you mean the PB 13.
@@Beos_Valrah You are correct.
I prefer ported as you can tune them more into your system, I find sealed have to be turned up to get the depth of bass this can be a problem at night time
There is another option - *mass loaded transmission line*; which has a lot of advantages over both sealed and ported designs, I think. RSL Speedwoofer is essentially a TL subwoofer.
What was the conclusion? I don't have 1,5 hour right now.
Too bad for you
hahah,
It depends
There is no conclusion. There ya go.
Don't eat soy and chemicals. watch the video and see what I mean.
What about open baffle subs, e.g., GR-research ones.
Have you a link to James page ?
Gud point made by Kames abt passive radiator being inefficient as they keep moving on ground. We got 2 subs in the family,Elac3010 n 3030. The 3010 is such tiny sub that the passive rad moves so much that the just keeps rattling and moves frm its place.No such issue with the bigger 3030 12 inch sub as the enclosure is much bigger and heavier. Lesson learnt that i wd never buy a sealed sub with passive radiator esp when its a smaller enclosure. The solution i found is that i turned the sub 90degs so that the passive rad faces to the side instead of downward.now the sub doesnt move as the air frm passive rad doesn't have any resistance. I wrote to Andrew jones on the same,but didnt get any answers.
47:37 The guy on the left claims there is no or little information below 70Hz in music. This sums up this guy whole knowledge, credibility and reliability. And he prefers sealed boxes. It speaks for itself.
I think it all depends on the listener’s preference. It is almost the listeners feelings about the sound. I like sealed but have had ported sun, both sound good. After many tears of a ported sub to a sealed sub. There seems to be a difference but I cannot define it.
PB 2000 Pro or SB 3000 for HT ?
You say Yamaha YPAO 'sucks' but you do admit that it calibrates the delay better than you could possibly hope to do by ear. So still use it, right?
We set the receiver auto-calibration May do a better job. YPAO is particularly bad with EQ and has also gotten the time delay wrong. I’m a big hater on YPAO. I keep trying to give it the benefit of the doubt with each new iteration and walk away seriously unimpressed.
So should you use it? If you have no other measurement capability, yes. If you have any other measurement capability, then no I wouldn’t use it per say. What I would do is use it for initial setup. Then go in and turn the eq portion off but leave the delays in tact. Measure with REW or a similar measurement software. Then look at the group delay or wavelet plots to assess how accurate the time alignment between subwoofer and mains are? If it doesn’t match, you adjust accordingly in the setup. I do this by adding distance to the subwoofer or, if not possible, adding distance to the mains. It has the same effect in the end.
THOSE M.I.C.S, THAT CALIBRATE OUR 4K RECEIVERS ARE ONE AMAZING PEICE OFF KIT THEY EVEN SET THE DB ON THE SUBBS AND CENTRE SPEAKER.
David Morgan yes that is what autosetup does. It’s very convenient. Sadly we have heard that most people don’t use this feature.
Maybe I missed it but does chuffing affect the Sonic performance or performance in general of the sub?
Chuffing is when the vibration of air inside of the port becomes so violent that it loses its cohesion as a solid chunk of air and gets turned into a chaotic wind. It can be audible and definitely affects the low-frequency performance of the sub, since that air mass isn't uniformly vibrating anymore.
@room-ten-oh-nine ! A lot of times, port turbulence really does sound like flatulence.
Satsui no Hado one issue I will add to what James said is that port chuffing also does not negatively impact the CEA-2010 numbers. A subwoofer can get a passing score while sounding awful.
Chuffing in inharmonic meaning that it is a non-linear sound that is not related directly to the tone or any fundamental. It’s just a noise made by the air moving in and out of the port.
This noise is higher in frequency and this is very distracting. To me, nothing is worse in subwooferie than port chuffing. It ruins an otherwise good musical experience.
Yup, it basically sounds like shit. I ditched a ported sub that had that issue. Though, you can flare the port and that should solve that problem
It really applies to room and placement.
I feel like ported subs produce bass sounds when you dont want them to and sealed subs are just clean and produce bass when bass is present. Sealed sounds so good.
@Mark Godfrey In my experience Minus4Plus6 is right. By "sound better" do you mean louder? I don't like the time-smearing of ports. The accuracy of sealed boxes is impressive.
@@dreamdiction I disagree, I have heard many bas reflex subs which don't smear anything, they actually have as good if not better pitch definition than some acoustic suspension subwoofers.There can also be lower distortion with bass reflex subwoofers when used properly due to the higher efficiency from venting the cabinet. this allows the system to use less, power thereby relieving the amplifier of the need to drive the woofer harder than is necessary to produce the desired volume.
All speakers have that problem, all speakers have problems starting and stopping in perfect response to the musical signal, including acoustic suspension speakers and subwoofers.When the port , speaker,cabinet and amplifier are properly integrated,the speed and definition of a bass reflex speaker/subwoofer can be as accurate as an an acoustic suspension speaker/subwoofer.
@Mark Godfrey Download WinISD, to minimise the group delay in a ported box you have to build it really small and choke the sub and sacrifice most of the SPL from the port. (latency/boom even after the sound stops playing), you can't have both max SPL and max SQL in a ported box. with a sealed box the only downside is you need more subs to add more bass. sealed boxes can be built very small and save space. All music sounds good on sealed, most music/rap sounds good on ported, but when the sub tries to deliver instant transient responses it fails because of the group delay. e.g. this one sounds like crap on a high SPL ported box but sounds great on a sealed box: th-cam.com/video/RmJl05Ucts0/w-d-xo.html
@@addonisryan I agree with what you said very much. A high quality well made and designed bass reflex doesnt just go boom boom boom and that's it lol. My klipsch monitors hit hard solid thumps like sealed would to smooth insane lows to mid bass to every tone in the music arsenal you can think of and way louder. I'm telling you all that idea that sealed is tight and ported not is not correct.
Look at Ascendo Immersive Audio they have Infrasonic subwoofers 24" , 32" and 50" they are all Sealed the 50" can do 140dB max . The 24" and 32" have world Record 9cm linear excursion.
They are to be considered to be the best subwoofers at the moment. They also have 6 kilowatt amplification inside.
Best regards
Hermann
Hermann Maischatz so all you just said is for the normal consumer totally irrelevant
@@MichelLinschoten what I meant is that those subwoofers go much deeper than the ported subwoofers and give better control you can easily fit a 24"Infrasonic subwoofer into a 6x6m room to add to your normal subwoofers.
Great conversation. But I must comment that on on 40:30 Gene has the Popeye look. Lol