The Disneyfication of American Cities
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 มิ.ย. 2024
- Beautiful places don’t have to be limited to expensive theme parks or giant indoor buildings, they can just be places.
➜ Includes footage by:
/ @resorttv1
/ @actionkid
Intro music by Josh Augustin: open.spotify.com/artist/2dYrn...
➜ Follow Me:
TikTok: / flurfdesign
Instagram: / bricelan
➜ References & Further Reading:
America's Suburban Experiment
www.strongtowns.org/curbside-...
Is Disneyland the great American artwork?
www.bbc.com/culture/article/2...
EPCOT: Walt Disney's New Urbanist City
www.archdaily.com/987892/epco...
EPCOT: Walt Disney's failed city of tomorrow
www.morningbrew.com/daily/sto...
What Disney can teach us about urban planning
www.zdnet.com/article/qa-what...
Walt Disney’s radical vision for a new kind of city
theconversation.com/walt-disn...
Mall Maker
archive.org/details/mallmaker...
Malls Weren't Supposed to be Like This
• Malls Weren't Supposed...
Why the inventor of the shopping mall denounced his dream
www.theguardian.com/artanddes...
Southdale Center: America's first shopping mall
www.theguardian.com/cities/20...
Victor Gruen Wanted to Make Our Suburbs More Urban. Instead, He Invented the Mall
www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...
The rise and fall of the American mall
www.businessinsider.com/the-r...
What Is Traditional Development?
www.strongtowns.org/journal/2...
➜ Timestamps:
0:00 The suburban experiment
1:21 Disneyfication
2:20 Intro
2:30 Walt Disney's city of tomorrow
4:34 The invention of shopping malls
7:31 The death of American malls
9:26 Why traditional development is better
11:26 The Disneyfication of American Cities
12:49 Designing beautiful places
- flurf
#urbanplanning #suburbs #urbandesign
Imagine spending trillions of dollars of taxpayer money... to replace walking for those that can afford it. Then discovering that all of that money wasted leads to shorter, unhealthier, unhappy lives, fatter people, and more loneliness than ever. And still being absolutely determined to keep trying to remove walking from the average person's every daily life.
Definition of insanity
Many people are reaping huge rewards for this way we are living. All that matters is profit for few.
The automobile industry will do anything to maintain its grip on the population, as would the oil and gasoline industry, and all of these corporations that have monopolized big chain restaurants, shops.
Uhhh, the average human lifespan has gone up. Your comment doesn’t make much sense…
I broke my leg years ago and it continues to pain me and always will. I hate walking. It hurts - a lot.
This actually seems like a black mirror episode- going to a theme park for something that used to be normal
Like going to a zoo not to see animals but a zoo for culture that we no longer have.
@@AndrewAnstromkind of like human zoos
No
@@Jacob630Yes
this
Ironically shopping malls in America are closing left and right because they have moved so far from their original purpose. Malls now try to limit socialization and ‘idiling’ to make shopping the focus of going to the mall.
But the ones in Europe and Asia (that you can walk/ride transit to) are still in business. I also think that explains the rise in delivery services. People hate driving so much that they will pay others to do it for them.
@@HigherQualityUploads Without a doubt and in towns/cities with no transit there’s lots of traffic and no alternatives so taking a quick trip can be a gamble.
The quality of retail goods, even luxury ones, has declined across-the-board. Walmart and Target lowered the bar for everybody else. And pleasant-sounding music has been replaced by outright ear rape in many of these places, and they refused to change it when asked. Even buying new clothes is an exercise in futility because they will be torn with in a few months anyway.
Many of them are one super sized Big Mac meal away from getting their own TLC show. Look at the videos of people going inside fast food restaurants in the 70s, 80s, and early 90s. They are nothing like today. These places were clean and full of skinny people who spoke English, and the food was not fried in seed oils. Look at them now. Also look at what Julia Child said about McDonald’s french fries.
They were doing that about 10 years ago when I was in highschool. Nothing new
As a kid, I wanted to live in Epcot lol. I thought the monorail was super cool and efficient. The fact that a theme park has better public transit than my own city is a tragedy.
It’s not that crazy, a theme park has way more visitors and money to spend per square mile than most cities
You are not wrong. Epcot was going to be a city that Walt Disney himself was going to built when he was alive. Sadly, that plan was put to a stop when Walt Disney died.
4K60fos video quality please
@@NJBizationawh shizsticks
I see you still haven't grown up. It failed because it was a stupid idea that did not take everything into consideration.
Dude, I’m glad to see people finally talking about the intersection of theme park design and city planning. It’s been my weird niche obsession for years. The first time I went to Europe, I kept walking through cities like Prague and Vienna and saying “dude, this is just like Disney World!!” Turns out, the thing that appealed to me about Disney the whole time was a walkable place with good public transit designed at an inviting and aesthetically thoughtful human scale!
Person from Vienna: For me that Video answered why so many Americans seem so enchanted by Disney Land, which I could never understand.
When it comes to Disney, in Anaheim. They dodge millions in taxes each year. Imagine we used that revenue to create walkable areas for Orange County instead. 🫴
Those cities are centuries older than the vast majority of American cities
@@Dragoncam13 because cities are olders here doesnt mean you american should countinue to live like animals.
The US is 247 years old. Countries in the European continent have existed before the medieval times. Walt Disney travelled to Denmark, and visited Denmark’s old theme park called Tivoli. He modelled some of Disneyland in Anaheim after Tivoli. Seppos copy Europe. Denmark has another theme park called Bakken, and it opened in 1583. The USA didn’t exist in 1583.
"I’m not against the automobile... I just feel that you can design so that the automobile is there but still put people back as pedestrians again. I’d love to work on a project like that.”
- Walt Disney
While I do have some disagreements on certain matters, I can agree on THIS quote.
Before cars came along, streets were for EVERYONE. Cars come along, people become speed bumps then EVERYTHING changed lest cars be outlawed.
I believe locals can be equalized for ALL...Cars, pedestrians, bikes, etc.
If only greedy capitalists can just leave well enough alone.
May The Force be with Us all.
@@noahpartic7586thats why bikers and pedestrians get right of way
Sure, pedestrians have the right-of-way on the sidewalk or at intersections. Cars have the right-of-way elsewhere on the roadway.@@crimsonisms
@@crimsonisms 🤨Where?
In California, pedestrians always have the right of way, except on freeways.
Pretty sure that suburbia is a major contributor to depression as well
im pretty sure flurf did a video on how suburbia fuels the loneliness epidemic.
Yeah because its killed community making people more isolated and lonely which is why we are seeing so much mental health problems and polarization
@@WiegrafFolles
Dude, I know this might be shocking... but get this... you can socialize with people outside... WITHOUT SOCIAL MEDIA. 😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱
And it’s subsidized by the tax payers.
@WeigrafFolles what are you talking about? they still had a local community. people didn't just live out in the middle of nowhere alone - those who did, who lived on the frontier, tended to have big families, and the vast majority of them worked to try to build community around them. towns sprung up everywhere, that was the point of being on the frontier. have you read anything from people on the frontier who didn't have community yet? they talk about loneliness a lot. i have norweigan ancestors who worked on the fronteir, and they still had a small farm community abd had real big families, and worked to build that into a full town. and they could still write letters to people. and yet they wrote about the lonely fronteir and their hopes and dreams of making a community for themselves. my grandfather on the other side of the family worked on railroads. people were not going to the fronteir to get away from people. everyone was trying to build communities. it was a very hard life without them.
"hate, political polarization, and social strife" uh yeah, and where do you think that stuff comes from? you think it sprang up out of nowhere?
The suburbs is basically a giant bedroom that requires a vehicle to exit into the real world.
It's like city planners hated pedestrians
or they are just heavily influenced by "sell more cars".
The problem a lot of people don’t realize that people used to have very large parcels in most of inhabited places other than the big migration cities were the land was more desirable. the roads were made to go along those parcels when the population grew they were set stone. Most us cities were planed out 200 years ago and the population was nothing like it is now.
What if I told you, suburbanism was a response to certain ethnic communities becoming free. I think that will help you to understand.
@@moniquewrites9046 how is that if most suburbs are a majority white?
@@joestewart5406because all the white people left the cities bc people of color started moving into “their part of town”
I actually think an even more damning data point against suburbia is that rents in more walkable places are always higher than in the suburbs, despite there being more a dense supply of housing in the downtown environment. People inherently want to live somewhere walkable, but doing so has become a scarce commodity
THIS. People have made snide comments while I look for a home to buy in an inner-ring suburb of my city. I don’t have the money to own anything in the city though.
They are higher due to their proximity to where "the good jobs" are but if people had the choice they'd rather have more space not have to share walls with strangers and refrain from making noise and walking loudly for the sake of others' right to quiet enjoyment. If you don't have one of those good jobs or aren't in industry of servicing those who do, you shouldn't be renting there - hopefully you've already bought or need to move where it's cheaper.
@@AntonioDavid-qu3zqYou haven't lived in a small town where people go to Walmart for fun, have you?
@@AntonioDavid-qu3zqthe ppl servicing the ppl with the good jobs cant afford to live in the city lmao
@@suspiciousbird487 I’ve lived in a small town where people go to Walmart for fun, but those kids were losers that didn’t have anything going on. Pretty much every suburban neighborhood has parks within walking distance with facilities for sports. If you’ve lived in the suburbs, you are easily within walking distance of a basketball court, football field, tennis court, volleyball court on sand, golf course etc. So if you are going to Walmart for fun it’s on you.
People dont realize just how much control the auto industry has on our lives. Really sad when i visit places like Japan and see just how different their lifestyles are without the need of cars.
I want to live somewhere walkable so badly. I’ve always thought living somewhere walkable like Japan was a dream BECAUSE you don’t need a car. It’s crazy how much money, time, and effort they cost.
Yeah, I envy them living in literal broom closets and paying more rent per month than most americans do for house payments
@@symptomofsouls not going to convince you. If you are happy with your life, good for you.
@@IAmJaydenKun I just wish city people would stop going after the country way of life, I just want to live out there and be left alone and they keep voting for laws to make that harder. Higher taxes, more hunting regulations, requiring permits for everything.
@@symptomofsouls Building high density cities is way more illegal than maintaining the country. Most municipalities straight up ban even medium size buildings and ignore the need for walkability.
It’s insane to think America once was a country of trains, trolleys & beautiful cities
Those aren’t good things
@@The_king567 OoOoOoO ConVeNiAnCe 👻
@@bearlogg7974 yes
@@The_king567The guy from this video is a massive hypocrite. He criticizes suburbs for being "seas of asphalt" like cities aren't also seas of asphalt
@@symptomofsouls exactly
Incredible video, people look at me crazy when I tell them that their love for Disneyland is because deep down they want to live in a walkable city. I also get called crazy when I tell people that battery powered vehicles is not the future, but rather implementing efficient public transit will be the future we need.
You are crazy. If you really think America and their citizens will freely ditch cars, and EVs, for PT without a fight or pushback, then you are simply crazy.
The only reason why I loved Disney World as a kid was because it was a family vacation. I got to go swimming in the pools. I got to ride on the rides. I got to eat a lot of delicious junk food. I liked the arcade games. I liked the pretty tropical flowers. I liked the water features. I liked the souvenir shops. I liked watching the fireworks and I liked the parade of floats that they had. As a kid, I never even noticed the buildings. I hated waiting in all the lines and I hated all the walking. I hate walking even more now that I'm older. The monorail scared me. I hated, and still hate, heights.
@@giovanigeorgis3848 you're right, it is going to be very difficult to undo multiple generations of propaganda. Does it never strike you as a bit odd that even to this day car commercials have to sell you on the idea this particular car will give you freedom, when people claim that the entire benefit of cars is the freedom that they provide? Why would corporations need to sell us on how their car is going to provide us something that is supposedly inherent to cars, other than perhaps maybe that isn't really an inherent quality of cars and they know it.
@@laurie7689 did you hate the walking or did you hate the standing, because those are two very different things, and at Disneyworld you are going to be doing a lot more of the latter because of how much time you spend in lines. As for walking in the rest of the country, I don't blame you, walking in most American cities sucks, it's designed to suck, American cities aren't designed for people to exist in without being surrounded by their car. Walking in a place where you are surrounded by asphalt that is soulless and lifeless is at best boring and tedious, and it probably feels like it takes you forever to get anywhere (because it does, since everything is spread so far apart to make room for all the car storage that is needed everywhere).
@@smileyeagle1021 No, it doesn’t strike me odd. Can your train off-road? Can your bus off-road? I don’t think so. Cars do give you freedom and saying that they don’t is super ignorant. And if car commercials are “pRoPaGAndA!1!1” then I guess every other commercial for every other item ever sold is too, including your precious bike 🤷♂️
One of the reasons I couldn’t live in America. It’s so car obsessed. I love being able to leave my house, walk and be able to get what whatever I need.
It's a shame cause in the US, the only opportunity for walkeable cities exists in big cities like NYC or Chicago. What about those who are not into big city life but still want to live in a quieter low key town with walkable/bikeable options?... That doesn't exist in the US. Outside of those two cities, you are essentially forced to buy a car if you want to get anywhere.
There are some walkable small towns usually on the east coast like Brattleboro, Vermont. But yea this is mostly true
There are some smaller communities that exist. There are several towns like this near Philly.
NYC is still a great option. It is more than just Manhattan. In Queens and Brooklyn you'll find a lot of what we call "middle housing" where you'll have quieter neighborhoods, with a lot of 3-6 floor apt buildings, or houses meant for 2-3 families. It's not necessarily a "low-key town" but it's a decent middle ground. And there are variations of middle housing too. Some areas are more city-like with fewer cars, while some are more suburban.
And the best part is you still have decent access to the big city area if you need it.
Let's be honest. Chicago isn't exactly the kind of city ANYBODY wants to get caught walking in. And NY? Full of illegal immigrants now so...there's that.
Most cities are walkable across the US. Problem is that cities are the minority
i think another thing that is so important is the use of nature. I think trees and local flora are equally as crucial as having a walkable city to improve quality of life (at least sentimentally)
I also would like to point out that our suburban living experience really diminishes community for people who no longer have children. Because if you bring this conversation up with anybody who has children right now, they'll say that they feel like they have a community because their community is built up around their children. They make friends with their kids friends parents and other parents who are a part of your kids soccer league or whatever. They feel like they have a community so they don't see this as a problem. But for the vast majority of the population, it is a problem. It doesn't help children or teens or young adults or people who are older and have children out of the house with keeping up a community.
It makes you wonder how many people who are in their late 40s and decide to have another kid are having that kid because they want a child, or because they crave the community that having a child brought them
Stop trying to fix a problem no one is complaining about. The older citizens I know want their neighborhoods to stay the same. They speak out strongly for that and then you call them " nimbys"
Stop addressing a point someone else makes using a bad tone. If you are gonna argue against someone, make sure that you respectfully address their mistake and keep in mind the diction you use. That way you don’t sound like a jerk on the internet.
Boomers trying to maintain their last grasp on oppressor class hegemony.
@@Attmay it's not boomers. It's anyone who likes living in a suburb and that's a lot of people or it wouldn't exist
Today's oppressed is tomorrow's hegemon. Can they be decolonized by the New Oppressed? Or does their former victimhood make them immune to accusations of fragility? Are they above the law?
I visited the states from the UK, and I swear people thought I was homeless because I was the only person walking.
And while I was there I mentioned to someone that I'll walk back to my hostel, (it was a 15 minute walk) They looked at me like I was crazy, like I had just said something they couldn't believe. They say "you're gonna WALk?" Im like yeah. It's 7 blocks or something. Why would walking 7 blocks be seen as such a crazy thing to do? Lol
Do people really think youre homeless just for walking? Ive never seen that before ever
Walking to high school and college was not only great exercise but also a pleasant experience. It’s unfortunate how reliant we’ve become on cars. As a person with a visual impairment, navigating the world on foot presents its challenges in today’s age. Due to the harsh realities of the world, I find myself depending more on transportation.
I once got asked if needed help by a stranger (they lived on the far side) who was driving by in my own neighborhood. They were very confused when I said I was fine.
It's dangerous to walk in America. Have you met there cops yet?
@@barrysims9906this but ironically maybe OP was in a sketchy area and that's why they were shocked by them walking
I never understood my fascination for such "magical places" like Disney World or other 'very rare' spaces where you can be a functioning, happy human being - socializing in public spaces, where there's people who live freely in the area, commerce, shopping, food, etc. Everything you need for a healthy society in a walkable, bike-ride-away space. It's community. People make a HUGE deal going to Disney Parks (or most any theme park, to be honest), BECAUSE of that community we all crave and are willing to pay $100's of dollars to experience, even if for a day.
This tells me, this is how we as human beings are meant to live amongst each other, not AWAY from each other, in gated communities and suburbia. It's depressing. Now I know why I loved the mall so much, and why I had an emotional reaction when it was recently torn down. I remembered, not the commercialization, but the moments and experiences I shared with family and friends. The mall was that artificial bridge for a semblance of community, and when that was taken away, there's literally nothing else to replace it.
This also explains my great fascination and desire to travel the world AWAY from the states! I'd see cities like Vienna, Prague, Berlin, Cologne, and think, "My God! Are these cities real?!"
The cities are made to be beautiful AND functional. In America, it's all about "cheap, cheap, cheap!", build fast and get them in and out the door. The aesthetics and beauty is an afterthought. In most other cities (much older cities) world wide, they know what works and stick to it.
Tldr; America is garbage
True. I have been to Italy a decade ago and I have seen black people living with white in peace. And really it illegal migration Italy is against coz nobody wants thugs in their area. So many people migrate it is hard to tell who is from Syria and if they don't have terriorist past.
I have only been in two of those cities (i lived in Europe), and those places are real.
There’s plenty of beautiful places in the states too tons of them….but I totally feel you on the mall I love the mall too it’s sad that some have closed and others aren’t the same at all….other than a grocery where are you gonna be around ppl a bar i guess but I hate bars and you’re supposed to meet a girl hah were all conditioned at this point to think whatever we could possibly say will end up being interpreted as being creepy so that’s great
I did study abroad in antigua Guatemala and it was wonderful being able to walk anywhere and at max it take an hour. Helps that the city is gorgeous and the temperature ideal. Also met lots of cool people!
Growing up American, it's almost impossible to see how things are until you truly take the walkability pill. Once the veil is lifted, it becomes torture to live your day to day life in. Once you leave, it's impossible to want to go back.
There’s this company called Westfield, that originated in Sydney Australia and has made massive malls that thrive because they are all built within commercial districts in the suburbs with transport hubs. All parking is underground so the malls are not surrounded and isolated by car parks. The malls themselves have art and lots of social areas for people to meet. But what makes them particularly successful is that they all have at least one supermarket as well as delis, greengrocers, butchers, bottle shops, etc. this means people come to do their food shopping and in the process go to other shops in the mall.
There's two in London, one in East London, one in West London, that seem to be doing reasonably well; even though they have 5,000 plus parking spaces they're also well served by public transport and they're not stuck way out next to a motorway
@@AndreiTupolev the one in west london is betterż less blacks and arabs
There is one is Sweden that was built with Westfield-style planning but was not launched by Westfield per se… and ended up being branded Westfield through purchase.
Oh didn’t know Westfield was the one behind this type of design. I thought majority of shopping centres (outside of the US) had supermarkets and other amenities. I close to a Westfield shopping centre in Australia and I pretty much only go for the groceries and the occasional errand. I rarely go actual shopping there (like for clothes). If it weren’t for these stores/services, I’m pretty sure the foot traffic would be lowered significantly.
I live near a big Westfield in Perth.I don't need to go into the city ever .cinemas,bowling, arcades, restaurants everything
I never realized it until I got older. But I hated going out in America, because you Need a car to do anything. Meanwhile in Japan and in Mexico me and my friends would just walk out and if we needed to, we’d use public transportation
The irony is that Disney parks are more walkable, people-oriented and lovely to look at than many American cities are. Those other places? More like a Hanna-Barbera cartoon, where if you pay attention to the scrolling backgrounds... it's the same buildings and trees over and over again. 😂 Done to save money, just like the typical suburb... but at what price glory?
This is why people like going to theme parks like Disneyland. It's fun, walkable, and you're surrounded by people. We've brainwashed ourselves into thinking the suburban isolation lifestyle is what we want. No it's not, it's what the corporate/capitalist elites wants. It's to keep them separated from everyone else, keep everyone isolated and controlled. Unfortunately, this will never change, it's too late.
But nobody wants to go to Disneyland every day. Support for walkable cities ignores the simple fact that people _like_ having their own mini-castle with mini-park out back where they are the absolute monarch meaning I can smoke a cigarette or have a bbq or dry my clothes when and where I want .
Growing up in the suburbs but now living in a city, I can tell you that I don’t necessarily prefer living in a stacked up ant colony where I have to battle crowds for space and access every time I step outside which is often because I need to make regular trips to the supermarket now that I carry my groceries home by hand. In the suburbs I can have my morning coffee on the porch and listen to the birds and not my next door neighbour coughing his lungs up while his toddler screams uncontrollably and I have to step over human faeces and used needles on my walk to work.
As someone with crippling social anxiety and lives in the suburbs, the thought of living in a dense and heavy populated area like the city is a nightmare. I’ve been to urban areas like New York City, and I’ve also been to Disneyland. I can tell you, if there weren’t so many people there, the experience would’ve been much more enjoyable for me.
It can change. It will simply require evrueone in power to be removed ans replaced with people who have the vision of building a proper civilization.... or we let this rotten bloated civilization collapse under it'a own weight, and then rebuild the way we truly wanted all along.
It's not too late things will change in time
problem lies within conflating disneyland to your most populous city, everyone knows new york is a mess thats not what this video is about. New york is not comparable to your average european city.@@starstorm1267
I grew up in a "small town" in the city of San Diego, where we had almost everything we needed within walking or a bike ride. After I moved to Oklahoma and wanted to walk places, people looked at me like I was crazy. People in cars don't even yield for pedestrians either.
As an urban planning student, Disney using Ebenezer Howard and Jane Jacobs as references is groundbreaking. They're effectively the founders of New Urbanism (modern movement for transit-oriented development, reducing car reliance and encouraging pedestrian density) which we're only listening to nowadays
I'm merely in advertising (part of the problem, I know) but I fell in love with Jacobs' work and always do what I can to advocate for similar solutions in my local area.
America too lonely
You should check out Rosemary Beach in Florida. It's a newer community (built alongside Seaside and Alys Beach), with no more than 100 parking spots in the entire town (excluding street parking).
The downtown area is a mixed-use medium density, built in traditional vernacular and colonial styles, and there are probably 10 times as many bikes as cars.
It's a really wonderful community.
@johnperic6860 thanks I'll check it out
I'm surprised I haven't seen that in the news or something, that's pretty much unheard of here in America
Must cost a fortune though
@@Trahzy
Yeah, there's extremely high demand to live there.
a friend took me on a trip there once. places like this and seaside were super popular among (rich) teens and tweens i knew in texas. this just further proves the children crave walkable cities! kids are riding bikes and walking around everywhere and get to experience independence outside of their parents having to drive them places. and they’re so easily able to make friends either from seeing the same kids often or from congregating on the street! while it was the most white place i have ever been the town itself was very nice.
A lot of people in the US like the isolation of the suburbs. In fact, they build entire "man caves" so that they don't have to go out and interact with other people. And only invite a select few into their homes. This isolation is contributing to the polarization of society. There's no incentive to people to venture outside of their own bubble so a lot of people (especially suburbanites) don't have and understanding of the world outside of their subdivision, except what they see on the news which can be biased.
It's also worth noting that race played a part in the development of the suburbs. Black families, including veterans, were excluded from the suburban experiment and were not allowed to buy homes in the suburbs.
You ever seen Gangs of New York? Ever heard of the Mafia? The Bloods? The Crips? So much for your theory about cities uniting us and making us all get along.
*Gangs of New York* is one of Martin Scorsese’s worst films.
You made his point.@@ignaciofuentes2642
@@ignaciofuentes2642 as if poverty doesn’t play a part here. If all of the middle and upper class people leave the city of live in the ‘nice part’ of the city, then the rest is left to people who can barely afford to live. Income and property tax doesn’t pay for schooling or infrastructure anymore which worsens the poverty. Over policing of low income areas creates artificially higher crime rates and then things like crack epidemic (which was engineered by the US government) hike up those crime rates and contribute to gang violence. All to serve modern day redlining and the school to prison pipeline.
Yes, you are correct that I do everything in my power not to have to interact with other people except for the ones I like. I'm not a people person (I find dealing with most people tiring) and would hate living in a big dense city. Nothing will change that about me; I've always been that way. Me isolating myself doesn't contribute to the "polarization of society". My goal is to get as far away from the big population centers, to avoid exactly the polarization you are talking about. I think having all these diverse people together in one place trying to get along is what causes polarization. Imagine cramming Jews and Muslims into one place, lol.
Keep making these types videos, we love them, they’re really well done and informative :). I can see the inspiration from NotJustBikes too!
I love the little jokes in the place names, down in the bottom left corner 😂 The upsidedown Australia had me cackling
It always felt like malls never got their prestige back after the 2008 crash
Something I always say about this topic is, even if these modern suburbs are your jam, do you think it should be illegal to build anything else in the whole country? Cus that's what our big government zoning laws and building codes are doing right now.
but my freedom or something
My freedom to be restricted to one mode of living and transportation! Traffic jams are AMERICAN!
@@johnperic6860 you must really want to live in China. And sadly for you, immigration into China has standards and dissidents are counterintuitive to stability.
@@CantoniaCustoms
How does what I said correlate to wanting to live in China?
@@asagoldsmith3328 traffics jams don’t happen when you don’t try to cram a bunch of people into a small area. Suburbs not having public transportation isn’t a problem when they stay suburbs. If you don’t have a car go to the city. I would rather have my own vehicle that I can drive wherever I want whenever I want than share a vehicle with lots of people.
I thought you would mention, Celebration, FL.Walkable neighboorhood made by Disney in Orlando... so not a city, and naturally just for the well-off since there's a high demand for walkable neighboorhoods
was thinking of making an entire video on that
Not to be confused with Celebration Pointe, FL omg I was so confused about what you were talking about because Celebration in Gainesville is like 1/3 outdoor mall, 1/3 unaffordable luxury apartments, and 1/3 stroads. It's a weird mixture of walkable and unwalkable, cause it's built out on the edge of the city no one goes to, and everyone has to drive to get there so it's has to accommodate everyone's cars. It's definitely not worth mentioning lmfao
Sadly Celebration has grown so big for its britches too now. Original celebration was awesome and didn’t even allow national chain stores in the downtown area. But now with all the other phases it’s so big and not fully walkable.
@johnshoemaker2260 make a metro or tram?
@@flurfdesignNjb Jason from fake London would like a collab pleez, I presume 😂
I never knew suburbs were like this, they sound really depressing and lonely. Thank you so much for this video! Very informative!!
That’s just a myth boomers pushed to justify the largest generational wealth grab in human history.
They are
They are also really ugly and are impossible to live in if you don't have a car to transport you to your every need.
Yea they are, as someone who just moved to one
Depends on what kind of person you are. To me living in a crowded city sounds awful and the ideal is living somewhere very remote. Suburbs are a good in-between though where you get some tranquility and independence, but you aren't so far away from hospitals, etc.
Damn. Got a sub out of me. First time i've ever heard someone use the term a "sea of asphalt" to describe suburbia. The sea of asphalt rivers and streams that lead to the concrete islands that are those shopping centres. All to converge back to our ricktey boathomes that are docked to a harbor within that sea.
Better than having to walk on mud
@@northpolegs6201I personally would rather walk on mud than daily risk my own demise to a potential collision with an insanely fast giant metal box.
Here in Germany some shopping malls are build right next to apartment buildings and such so they actually get visited. They still suffer from people going online shopping more but not as much as others. In the end if you need something quick you just have to walk over like 10 minutes and get what you need. My city in general is extremely walkable in a lot of areas so much so that i know many people who never bothered with even getting a drivers license.
I also like the concept of accessibility without a car in more green spaces since I don't own a car. Public transportation is not convenient in the US because there's no incentive for people to give up their cars. There's also a lot of industry $$ invested in keeping those industries rolling. It's not that there's a conspiratorial effort where all these companies come together to stop progress in the other direction (walkability). It's that it's hard to slam the brakes on a massive industry since so many people invest their effort in keeping it alive because it keeps them alive.
I remember my first time visiting the US , asking my mom if there were actual people living somewhere, all you saw were cars , I even joked about it , thinking it felt like the movie “ Cars “ … pedestrians are a myth in the USA.
I live in Massachusetts, while it is expensive, I love living here because it's walkable and accessing the train is cheap.
I feel like that’s only true in like, Cambridge/Somerville, but it’s not really true of other areas, even within eastern mass.
So much of it feel like wasted potential tbh. There’s still a lot of land that could be upsized or built on, but they just end up making blocks upon block of McMansions or “luxury condos”.
Not to mention, the T has problems. It takes about 30 minutes to go from Alewife to Park St to go like 7~8 miles on the Red Line without any delays. That’s really slow for a subway that doesn’t have to deal with city traffic
@@trawrtster6097 I agree with you. I live in the Revere area with my family so I access the train easily. And yes, I've had to deal with delays, but since it's so cheap I put up with it. I wish the T can cover more areas like Eastern Mass or other areas. I've been saving up for a car and hoping inflation and car prices will go down.
I live in MA. I am desparate to leave. it sucks here
Disneyland is an enormous theatre that invites the audience to step onto the stage and to interact with the players.
Main Street, U.S.A., depicts "everyone's hometown" (but mostly that of Walt Disney).
He was born in Chicago in 1901, and he spent his formative years in Marceline and Kansas City, Missouri.
"I do not make films for children... or, at least, not primarily for children."
"You're dead if you aim for kids."
"We design the films to appeal to ourselves."
"The adults have the money; ... children don't have any money."
- Walt Disney
th-cam.com/video/94ucLkGoI1E/w-d-xo.html
Disneyland's main street is inspired/based on Old Town Fort Collins, Colorado. I was born there. More importantly, so was Harper Goff, the man who helped Walt Disney design "Main Street U.S.A."
how do you think 'lets build a traditional downtown' and proceed to build only stores? how do you forget the point of a city is to live close to everything you need?
you put so much truth to power with this video. love every second BUT the visual gag at 10:20 was the cherry on top for me. good stuff
Took a while for me to figure it out
I don’t get the visual gag, explain please?
Melbourne was upside down, cause it's the land down under @@music4ever156
Because Australia is upside down lol@@music4ever156
Australia is within the entire Southern Hemisphere.
I grew up in a remote town in upstate NY and the mall was an important community hub when I was a kid and teen. It's where the movie theater was and all the big stores. It was also the place you could go during the winter and walk around without freezing. When they built a new mall across the road in the late 80s the old mall started dying. The new mall is on its way out now.
It's too bad. Having grown up with them, I rather like malls.
Even in large cities, malls were still popular among teens. I grew up in NYC, where we have plenty of places for kids to hangout besides a mall. Usually it would be at a local park near the school. But the mall (Queens Center Mall) was still very popular-- it was like a central hub for high school kids. I'd go about 2-4 times a month to meetup with friends from other schools.
I'm all for walkable neighborhoods like the video shows, but malls have a certain appeal to them and I think they should still exist. Malls feel a bit more premium than their outdoor equivalent.
I like malls.
Even as a kid I was a mallrat. They were just basically inaccessible until I was basically old enough to drive, being about twenty miles away for all of them,,from where I lived.
Now tiktok has replaced malls. Teens and kids don’t seek out in person activities like they once did. A sea of desperate strangers online will validate you and you will love it ! 🙄
To be honest, over here in Germany, American suburbs are seen as insane. Sure, we do have things that are labeled as such, but the structure is vastly different and pains are taken that you can reach important stuff by foot or bicycle and that there is a connection to public transit.
One thing that always is notable in American suburbs is either the total lack of sidewalks or them having crappy sidewalks that are next to unusable (either way too small and/or due to neglect since it seems the house owners are expected to maintain them instead of the municiapality). Unthinkable in our country where correctly sized sidewalks are required by law and have to be maintained by the municiapality.
@@WiegrafFollesthat sounds like you live in a developing country tbh (no judgement)
Germany? I’d say your Autobahn and sad state of DB with all its cancelled trains is just as bad as the US’s car infrastructure and commuter rail….
Despite all of the negative effects associated with Suburbia, Americans like cars and we like to drive. We have a very individualist culture here and enjoy the freedom of being able to commute without relying on public services like trains and buses. We also strongly value privacy and like not having to interact with the general public unless fully by choice.
@@legowagfles7287 bad transit in Germany: only a bus every two hours in your village or 50 people.
Good transit in the US: The county seat has more than three trains per week.
People in other countries do not realize how big the United States is compared to any individual “country” in the illegal occupation of Western Asia racists call “3ur0p3.” They also do not seem to realize that our states do not function like individual nations and that the USA is not the EU.
Most important thing Americans can do is to acknowledge that it didn't work out. Adjust where needed, try again, and keep perfecting the formula until it does work. And learn from others.
Unfortunately many Americans are stubborn and are preventing progression against those who have solutions available. Because they cannot admit it didn't work out. And that sucks.
I've never seen any direct solution proposed that's even slightly realistic without dumping trillions of dollars completely bulldozing public infrastructure. While there's also a sheer disregard for the people who already live in suburbs. Sometimes I feel like these re-zoning plans are openly antagonistic towards those who are already bought into the suburban system. It makes me less willing to support your cause if you try and berate and insult the suburban lifestyle and assume a lot of things about the people who live there.
@@fritzfaust3644 If mixed use zoning was allowed in America then restaurants and grocery stores could be built in suburbs. Why would you not want that convenience?
@The_Lard I don't mind mixed-use zoning so long as it is done with intentions to address or fix social issues that were otherwise unaddressed. I know some local areas that were trashed by people on the lower income bracket and I'm regularly advised to take caution when driving around them. I've been approached by beggars while walking into shops in areas you'd describe as "mixed-use zoning". I just think we have too many borderline unfixable issues in this country that doesn't facilitate community growth.
@@fritzfaust3644 The 'easier' solutions are often most protested against. (Read; easy still being difficult but most realistic to succeed.) A big problem with existing suburbs is all people are NIMBY's, for good reason. If you knew next to you they'd buy a school, you'd never have bought that house. Of course people don't want that, I completely agree and understand. It's much more difficult to transform a suburb when it's already built.
The best solution to deal with this is to start now and include mixed zoning immediately with newly built suburbs. And have older suburbs transformed over the years as people change homes, need to be renovated or demolished etc. You cannot do that with suburbs that are finished and full.
A big issue however is that it's assumed these people - who would like to live next to a school- do not exist. There are absolutely people who would LOVE to live next to a school, or next to a supermarket. But because of this assumption, a school is completely ignored as an option, forcing people to drive their kids due to dangerous traffic they now have to cross. I wouldn't want to live next to a school either, but I have friends and family who love it because they're parents. And once their kids are older they just move elsewhere, and somebody else will buy that house who has young kids.
It's a combination of changing mindset within communities (one of the hardest things ever), and having patience but being consistent, dedicated and diligent. It can take years but if the people who try to make it work have trust in it and stay dedicated, it will succeed, but it's a lengthy process that could take an entire generation.
It's super difficult as the first response is always negative, and it will stay negative until people get to experience it. And maybe then it will become their new normal, and they take it for granted. Most people will most likely never realize the positive they gained in life, how much their life changed, and be grateful about it. They usually notice when they are able to compare, and often cannot even explain what it is that's to frustrating about it. Good infrastructure is quite a thankless job to work on imho, yet so important.
Sorry for the wall of text lol. But, just wanted to add; I hear you. I don't think it's unfixable, it's just a HUGE task. I totally believe there are options, and no not the whole country has to be 'fixed'. But some good neighborhoods for those who need it, would help so much. It doesn't feel right to tell you 'naw you all are fucked' because I genuinely believe it's possible. It's just really really difficult. But I believe!
Another banger video! full watch. I moved from USA to Europe, Visited Canada and can confirm everything you said! Haha i noticed Melbourne was upside down! very funny!
My family goes to Disney world every year and we know America’s Suburban experiment is awful when we love going to Epcot for the shops🤦🏼♂️
In CA Disney is over crowded because of this. It’s one of the only walkable pedestrian places in the entire developed state. Disney evades millions in taxes each year. We need walkable spaces and green space not allowing an already fraudulent monopoly to gain even more power and expand their footprint in the city of Anaheim. 💀
Abolish zoning laws!
Anyone remember when Disney created a disasterous suburban town in Florida called Celebration that inspired the Stepford Wives movie?
@@LikaLarukuI do! Is that still there? I remember the houses had like Mickey Mouse Easter eggs hidden around the properties lol
2:59 idk why but the way Walt said Epcot made me laugh
Having just visited Tokyo for a month... This video could not be more spot on.
WALKABLE CITIES.
I am fortunate enough to have a car that my parents gave me.
I feel sad watching adults in worse situations waiting to walk across 4 lanes of traffic where everyone is going 40 mph.
Imagine being in that position
Wondering if your gonna get hit at 40mph just to get 20 ft closer to your destination
I live on the main street in a small Midwestern town in America, and I love how close and cozy the town feels when compared to the modern suburban sprawls I grew up in. It also opens my eyes to how this town was not designed around the automobile, considering it was founded decades before they were even mainstream. Every weekend there are so many people walking about, so many small local businesses thriving, the culture and attitude of the town shows that there are still people that care. The only problem is that the streets are packed with cars, both moving and parked...and as cars (namely pickup trucks) get bigger and longer, cars can't drive down without yeilding to oncoming traffic.
It's funny that Epcot legit just tried to be NYC lmao
One thing that also killed the shopping mall in many cities is the internet. Amazon for example made it more convenient than walking around a mall, and maybe finding what you want.
Thank you for this video. While traveling to Tokyo, I loved how the subway connected to a mall and you can find restaurants and stores while on your way to the subway. That changed my whole perspective on how city is able to have pedestrians but also, great transportation. It made me want to move there. I am American and I wish cities were more walkable and accessible like Japan or other European countries. I feel like people would be much more happier walking everywhere even just sitting outside eating ice cream while looking at a park. Traveling abroad and visiting other countries definitely changed my perspective on how to live accordingly.
I am also an American, I own a car at home and I live with friends in the suburbs, and I have been solo backpacking around Asia for 3 months so far. I ended up spending around 10 days in Tokyo, and 8 in Osaka and a week in Seoul. And I would have to disagree, while Tokyo public transport was the best I have experienced. It didn’t take long for the novelty to wear off. By the time I was out of Japan and Korea I was completely sick of being reliant on public transportation and always being surrounded by the masses. Since I reached Southeast Asia I have been renting motorbikes and I much prefer them. I greatly value the freedom it provides over trains and busses. Not to mention the fact that you can basically park anywhere you want with the bikes. This still doesn’t make the cities any better though, I hate being around that many people. It doesn’t matter how walkable or how good the public transportation is, a lot of people just want their own property and don’t want to be cramped with tons of people all around. As interesting as these cities are, I would never want to live in one.
I work in tourism Chicago.
I can not begin to explain how many people visit the city, then behave as if Chicago is nothing more than a theme park, and not a place where people live. A place they would never want to live, just visit and treat like Disney.
It goes further. I also often feel like I am a mascot in a costume. I LIVE HERE, but people often take out their phones and just take pictures of me like I'm Mickey Mouse. (I ride various little electric vehicles that suburbanites have never heard of but urban residents are used to)
Like, there's a HUGE difference between tourists coming from actual cities and tourist coming from suburbs. I can fully tell the way they perceive the city and it's residents is different from eachother
With those murder and crime rates, most people probably just want to visit Chicago once and never return
It's so crazy that Americans won't build beautiful, scenic, walkable cities but will make fake, soulless replicas and treat them like fantasy places
I think part of the solution is restricting streets around "main street", usa to foot traffic only and by special permit only (such a delivery vans). They could also have special corridors like Disney envisioned for transit of larger goods to alleyways near shops to avoid congesting the streets with large, two ton, killing machines.
Also bring back trolly an short line railroads to get rid of big trucks snd busses
@@tux_the_astronaut Depending on where you live, there are short buses that do trips to local areas a town and surrounding towns. The town I live in has this, but it's still inconvenient and expensive. If there is plus side to getting rid of the stigma of a car-when-necessary society, I think an efficient and ubiquitous publicly supported transit system would remove a lot of tension from people's shoulders. This is a tax burden, but in a society which drives less, they also reduce the dollars that go into driving. For instance, if it's easy to buy and have big things delivered, people don't think they need a big car or truck.
Yet another of the many reasons why I want to move back to Europe
Great video, taught me a lot about the history of the modern American city. It was also really nice that I actually recognized some of the locations you filmed at such as Cloverdale Mall 😄
Really well made and informative video! Just two things that I was thinking while watching:
1. I think it’s really important to acknowledge the role of racism in the development of suburbanism. Like most things in the US, the reason for people moving outwards and wanting create faux experiences of community was because they despised many of the members who actually made up their community. Obviously, you can tell your story without including this, but since it’s about the US in particular, I feel like it’s pretty important.
2. Some of the photos you used were of malls in the Middle East (which I know because I happened to live next to them for 10 years). Not really a criticism of the video, more a suggestion that I’d love to see you tackle the rise of American practices of infrastructure development in the Middle East. It’s a fascinating subject and I think would make a great essay!
Love how when you said it encourages people to get out and explore, you included a clip of someone touching grass.
Based video based channel
i used to live in bangkok and it's a huge city for malls imo and they're great. i used to live in the downtown area in sukhumvit and i had a bunch of malls that were either within walking distance or took about 10-15 minutes to get to on the train. the best part of this for me personally was that i was a kid when i lived there and the malls and shops being so close by allowed me to have a lot of independence while still being very safe. i was able to go to the malls with my own or with some friends after school (i would phone my parents to let them know bc i had a stupid - only calls and texts - phone at the time) and be able to get back on my own either just walking home or taking the train or a motorcycle taxi (these are great btw. i don't think they're very safe though). it's really nice to grow up in a way where you can actually interact with the larger world and don't have to be chauffeured around everywhere by your parents
Nicely done with 10:18
australia inverted
I keep finding your videos doing research for an architectural history & theory essay and I love them!
I live next to Epcot in a suburb, going to disney is like escaping into a dream world where I can walk and not worry about getting killed by a car, I can enjoy food of different cultures, and look upon beautiful and uplifting architecture. It is When I return to my suburb that is the nightmare, loneliness, boredom, a feeling of being in a sort of prison.
Keep up the great work, your channel is still small now but i can tell you will go far!
I live in Amersfoort, a city in Europe. We have 3 city gates from the Middle Ages in our town. Just yesterday I was thinking that they are very Disney like. Especially the Koppelpoort.* So yesterday I decided that Disney and the medieval people had the same source for their inspiration.
* it’s on the English Wikipedia. When you search for it, you’ll see I’m right. Don’t care if it was built long ago. It’s Disney theme park.
My mother used to think Disney liked tivoli gardens as well- I wonder if he traveled to those places
it's fascinating to see how malls are dying in America. meanwhile we are thriving in malaysia 😂 you can find a mall within 5km radius. meanwhile I love seeing suburbs in America. almost wanted to live there lol. growing up watching too much American film, they always show how quiet and also sometimes lively the neighbourhood is 😄 but that just a movie. I couldn't imagine what it feels like living there
Some suburbs are great, others… not so great…
I'll say NOT all malls are dying. Plenty of malls still are successful, but the problem is that TOO MANY malls were built in past decades at the peak of mall building. A good example would be like for example DeBartolo Company building Illinois Star Centre Mall in Marion, Illinois, and where only a few miles west University Mall in Carbondale already existed. To me it seems like it wasn't a good idea to build Illinois Star Centre, being it was so close to the existing University Mall in Carbondale. Forgot what Company was behind University Mall, sorry.
For the record Illinois Star Centre closed in the late 2010s as a mall, after years of low occupancy. Although Target, Dillard's, and one or 2 other places(maybe a movie theater?) still operate with just outside access.
If you guys think the US and Canada are bad take a look at New Zealand it's very tragic what the government did to a once beautiful walkable Māori island nation turning it into the most car centric country in the world per capita! The whole country is a car-infested, asphalt ridden suburban hellhole, it's a mini US with a little British twist 😞. The NZ government wanted to be like the US so bad that they destroyed all of their former human centric infrustructure just to replace it with asphalt, single family homes and strip malls...
Honestly when I visited New Zealand recently I didn't see it as quite as bad as the US, but I am from Los Angeles so my standards are pretty low. I was just thrilled that the public transit wasn't completely awful (but again compared to ours the bar is super low).
The suburbs basically seemed like the ones we have but with a few more bike paths and better bus frequency.
I agree with your sentiment though that given the history of the place it is more egregious there.
Toronto mall is smart. I saw this at Shinjuku station in Tokyo. It has a 4+ story mall on top of the station. Nightmare to navigate but pretty cool
Getting lost is part of the fun! As long as you're not on a time limit
i moved to a walkable city in 2022 and i was really shocked seeing this video because i have not seen a subdivision or suburb in over a year so i almost forgot about them in a way. obviously it doesnt feel like im in europe or anything but it definitely feels weird thinking about it because i grew up in florida which was very sprawled, we ran across a 4 lane highway to go to the corner store back then. here i dont even own a car.
From Martinsburg WV here - I agree with you 100% about focusing on increasing walkability in the downtown areas of our cities and towns. That's what I am trying to accomplish in my town.
I've never been to America but I grew up watching American media. As a kid, I always imagined sububia as the place where the characters in The Wonder Years lives. I thought that looked so nice and safe, where kids could ride their bikes around without fear of being rammed by cars or mugged by strangers. I never really thought about how it's all just houses and the occasional park and nothing else.
It's like that now because the suburbs are no longer safe, a lot of them also have crime problems, like the cities. You can still see things like this in rural america, but no one wants to move there
Where I lived they had these fake downtowns (less than a city block) and it was cool at fist but the fakness just kicked in quick. What cemented it for me was seeing a building get remodled and the brick facade really highlighted the lack of organticness for me.
Just found your channel, I am stoked. You had me at "Walt Disney was a time traveler"
Yo I bet your yt channel is gonna grow so much. Best of luck man!
awesome video once again!
Moving from HK to Vancouver, the big box malls at the subur(?) shocked me. Why aren’t there restaurants in these malls except cookie cutter food courts with mostly fast food options?
Yes moving to China I felt the shock but in reverse (and a good way). It seems like in HK & China so many gems of restaurants are in the malls. But this is non existent in UK/US/Canadian malls.
I live in a small city in the United States … we are luckily we have a historical downtown so it’s really hard to be destroyed ❤️
thank you for spreading the word about building better cities! Disney parks and the Vegas shops are tremendous examples that many US travelers can understand.
For anyone interested, there's a book called "Paved Paradise" that talks about Gruen's ideas in a lot more detail, and explores the history of how parking has reshaped our cities and economy for the worse
In the Soviet Union, the concept of microdistricts was much more successful, since it focused specifically on pedestrians and public transport, as well as placing everything necessary for life within a 5-10 minute walk from a residential building. From school to hairdresser. Also, more dense development with large intra-block areas allocated for greenery, playgrounds and walking areas. The buildings themselves might not be so beautiful, but the residents easily interacted with each other, voluntarily or involuntarily. Even the notorious communal apartments are now being revived under the coliving brand.
ive often wondered why our cities are so ugly
I love how people hate their creations over time. For example, the man who made/coded the endless scroll rejects his decision. Neat video!
It's funny because I live in Montreal and often meet US immigrants who move here because they're done with the US' anti-human way of living and they almost immediately fall in love with how walkable, vibrant, diverse and pro-social Montreal is as a city. Truly a rare gem in North America.
Stop lying this has never happened to you and never will god you people are ridiculous
Ironic considering Canada is a dystopian hellscape that treats their citizens like prisoners
I've been thinking that Suburbs have been looking like a Pixar movie since the 90s. Thanks for articulating this.
Solution: Add residential sections inside the malls. Business in the mall profit from the mall residents, and the mall becomes a walkable “community”, where people can live, work and shop, all without owning a car. Turn half the parking lot into outdoor parks/pools etc. America is saved. You’re welcome.
That's actually smart 👌
Walt Disney would not agree tho
minimum parking requirements enters the chat
I appreciate you played the classic track from V -Sauce channel "Going Down" on the background from 10:09 onwards. Still one of the best tracks for a video essay👍
This is a great video, extremely informative and well structured. I curate the content I consume, so I'm glad to add a subscription to that list. I am looking forward to whatever you put out next.
I've never heard of Walmart being an anchor in a mall before! Interesting.
I recently visited a place called Blue Mountain in Ontario. I very much got an uncanny valley feeling walking around the resort area but Disneyfication works.
Great video and footage!
Yay, another Canadian urbanist on TH-cam came into my feed! Subscription added. :)
I really, really hope that all of our voices together make a difference and help to speed up our transition back to the human scale and a proportional increase in public transit services while simultaneously decreasing auto dependency.
Great analisys. Today I was walking in Istambul and nothing could be more diferente from a car dependent city.
Wait wait wait, so Not Just Bikes got Walt Disney, too? Damn, that guy gets around.
Yes, I did notice that you turned the "Melbourne, Australia" title card upside down. Great subtle sense of humor. I laughed out loud!
i was surpirsed to see agincourt mall haha! great vid
In san Francisco you can skateboard everywhere and people still get mad 😆
Outstanding video!! Suburbia and its child shopping malls as you said are completely unsustainable. Both are really extremely ugly and unsightly. I've read articles that predict that they will be the new slums.