Counter Magic With Household Items!
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 พ.ค. 2024
- Magic is powerful. So much so that much of this channel is dedicated to covering one spell at a time, discovering just how we can break them and affect the whole world.
But does this mean spellcasters are invulnerable?
Certainly not. Here's how to destroy a spellcaster with mundane objects and simple tactics.
#fantasy #dnd #worldbuilding #music #dnd5e #analysis
Credits:
The Grungeon Master logo, background and intro music were composed by the wonderful Janina Arndt!
Find her here: / janinaarndt
If you want to stop a D&D Wizard, just throw a shield at him. If he catches it, it'll shut down his casting. If he doesn't, he dies from 1d4 damage.
Oh yeah? well- (dies from 1d4 insult damage)
As a bladesinger, I'll just not be hit by it.
I think that's only from wielding a shield, simply holding one shouldn't affect casting, unless you need that hand to perform the somatic or material components, in which case it could easily be dropped
Very 2nd edition of u
Meme aside catch the shield and drop it. Or cheese it, the shield is now the projectile for Catapult.
How to break a mage's concentration: A bag of wasps.
Cinnamon or black pepper to the eyes and mouth.
My briefcase full of BEES should put a stop to this!
a rock would also probably work
Not written in the rules, so it has no effect.
@@mrossknelol
**Laughs maniacally in subtle Spell**
**Gets a lungful of chili pepper and flour**
**Regrets life choices and low wisdom score**
Just before the mace crashes down on their head. LOL
*Laughs in "Warding Wind"*
@@Wastelandman7000gets maced, and then gets maced
Neither chili pepper nor flour have any effect by the rules.
@@mrosskneonly if your GM is lame... As a GM, flour makes a 10 foot cloud of heavy obscurity for 1 round. Chili powder would require a CON check to speak verbal components for 1d4 rounds.
Your job as a GM is to facilitate a good game, not follow the rules like a robot.
The best way to stop sorcerers is to outlaw Bards. No one to get those Draconic bloodlines started.
I get the joke. But to add just in case, the draconic bloodline isn't necessarily "sex with dragon" but could be some ancestor granted magic by a dragon as payment for a favor(non-sexual). At least, that's how its explained in the books maybe to keep it PG. It'd have to be like that though else how would you explain other sorcs? Tempest origin, did ancestor get it on with a typhoon? Maybe an elemental or storm giant? Now I'm overthinking this.
@@HateSonneillon wild magic sorcerer
No-bards doesn't save us from Warlocks who made a pact with a fae with the fae's payment being "her first born child."
Said Warlock didn't catch on when his patrons written contract said "Her first born child".
@@ryuku2 He should've been suspicious when he woke up the next day with no memory of what happened after he signed the contract, but his knees and hips were really sore for some reason.
But now that you mention it, I still hate that there aren't any Fey-Touched Sorcerers in 5e.
@@ryuku2 I am amused how apparently the warlock is a he yet the contract asks for her child.
Note to self, as an evil caster, have an evil lair with lots of prison bar walls that I can see through, and thus misty step past, to escape.
Mirrors at every corner
Stealing both these ideas for the campaign I`m writing! Thanks guys!
Ohoooohohoh. Thats going in the DM's book of clever gimmick!
now i'm imagining a chase scene between a wizard and a minotaur breaking through the walls at the same rate the wizard is misty stepping
@@kooolainebulger8117it wont be very long chase because how many spell slots you would have for m.s.? 4 or 5 idk
I’d argue that the reason most spellcasters spend their time indoors is because they’re not overly concerned about being assassinated.
Unless there’s a mage purge going on, many mages may go their entire lives without experiencing combat.
It's also the best place to study. Plus I imagine most mages would be making spells/magical items to help out the whole of society not stuff for adventurers unless that's just to fund their research into whatever ancient magic they're into
Assuming of course mage society isn't full of wizards killing each other to steal their secrets/spells/knowledge
@@zacharyweaver276 wizards of long-lived races like elves would probably have more to worry about there. A human wizard's entire life's work would be the equivalent of an associate's degree in wizardry, while an elf's would be a master's degree potentially.
@@Vaeldarg Yeah in dnd lore at least there was a lot of mage backstabbing for power going on in the past and it still happens in places like Thay
@@zacharyweaver276 Would imagine the oldest mages would be more focused on stuff about the planes. Can sometimes just stumble into them, like the Fey Wild, and they're treatable as just really dangerous natural environments. (think Darwin exploring the Galapagos) And priceless pay-offs would include getting a Cosmic Contract penned on Mechanus, that can alter the very rules of the planes.
If your close enough to a wizard you can just pin them to a wall and Makeout with them sloppy style, they won't be able to preform verbal or somatic components
But is that RAW though?
@@binho6600 its gonna be *wink*
@@binho6600 not but it’s RAI
The stupid part is this might actually work
I am going to let this out of the closet once more... Me, a Chaotic Good Tiefling cleric/warlock along with my party must break through the thunder orc's fort and defeat the orc lord inside... Gate is heavily defended... A patrol is heading inside so I used disguise self as a female orc wizard we encountered earlier... Got inside giving false info and warning... Gate opens... Party surprise attack... An orc wizard begins casting spells... And in the heat of the moment... My Amazonian orc cleric snogs and makes out with the wizard sloppy style to prevent them from casting spells... Say that I am in love with them and "Battle makes me all hot and bothered"... Combat ensues me grappling and pinning orc down... Party handles fight and when they fighting wizard... I backstabbed him... With tears on both our eyes... My party's paladin then grabs me by the ears to repent.... Thank you for coming to my Ted talk
Me, frantically rummaging through my pantry to try and stop a conjured meteor with a bag of flour and earplugs:
I could see movable walls being used against spellcasters
I could see them in combination with familiars and quickened spells being used by certain spellcasters.
Etherealness, passwall, abrupt jaunt, teleport, gaseous form
My players have recently been torturing me with their party of only full casters and counter spelling/silvery barbsing everything, thank you so much for this new material
What do you mean, torturing you? Why would it bother you that the players are succeeding?
A heavy box that needs to be lifted...
@@mrosskneit's just a turn of phrase they probably just mean that their players are doing very well against their challenges they've set up stop being such a pedantic backseat dm
@@Garvant_ No, he said torturing. It doesn't matter if it's a metaphor, that still communicates that he doesn't like it. So he's a shit DM.
The counter meta pick is Air Bubble as you say. Or it's a chance to revise the fashionable wizard's wardrobe. Scarves or collars turned up to mask verbal components; wide brimmed hats drooping yet lower to protect from flour bombs with a simple motion of the neck; veils or goggles to protect the eyes and make predicting their targets more difficult; masks or face cloths to guard the mouth; sleeves extended to cover hand movements.
Steampunk ninja wizards, I'll allow it.
so a plague doctor
@@robingates-shannon931 or the OG wizard look, the Odin drip
In the arms race of powders vs mages ability to cast, you're gonna see criminal mages invent the gas mask early as a mundane countermeasure to mundane countermeasures
EDIT: They'd probably get the idea from Dwarves (using the previously video on Dwarves) as silica will fuck your lungs up pretty bad without a mask
Dwarf lungs fuck up silica... 😂
@@aleisterlavey9716 Depends on your take on Dwarves
@@rowanbowers5743 stubbornness... embodiment of stubbornness
Maybe their beards filter it naturally?
True, but, that does make it more difficult for your enemy to hear your words. If you're trying to charm them hearing "Grwuf gwoofle urrgo wogllle" is going to kind of neutralize the spell anyway LOL The heroes are going to be going, "What did they say????"
Having one of my bad guys lose a concentration spell before they even finished casting it thanks to a monk with the Mage Slayer feat felt pretty bad for me as a DM, so it must've felt great for the player.
I like human-focused worlds, so spell casting comes up a lot. Thanks for sharing this.
Don’t feel bad, build story and scenes
For the deafening yourself option vs enchantment -- a lot of the downside of it can be mitigated by having the anti-enchanter strike team learn a sign language.
... they could also just *be* deaf, which -- assuming they're fully or close-enough to fully deaf to not be able to parse spoken language by sound -- means earplugs falling out is no longer a concern.
I actually used this in a game; an assassin organization had put together a team of deaf assassins (who all knew the same sign language) to hit an elven enchanter target, the party stopped them, but, it definitely threw them off to learn how many of their spells just failed, lol.
There was also a blind wizard who was immune to a lot of illusion visual spells the group worked with for a while; he was a diviner and could "see" to a limited degree by way of a few spells, and had a familiar who acted as a guide animal; he was very helpful to the party when they came across a cursed mirror, since for the mirror to work you needed to actually see your reflection in it, which, being blind, he was utterly immune to.
(it did mean he had a hard time targeting a lot of spells, but, he was a supporting NPC sort of character and didn't need to fight anyway.)
For the sign languge thing -- if you're a realism-focused sort of worldbuilder/DM it still makes sense. Historical recors of sign languages are... spotty at best, but, even with the general disregard ancient people writing books had for deaf people and deaf communication, there are things from as far back as like 500BC or so mentioning sign languages among deaf people.
And records of a widely-used sign language in pre-columbian america (plains indian sign language), as a widespread language used by deaf people and by hearing people to communicate across spoken-language barriers for trade and such.
So, sign languages have definitely been a feature of human communication for a VERY long time.
(also -- anywhere with a deaf community that doesn't have a sign language already will just develop one. Humans are VERY insistant about the language thing, and any community will figure one out for themselves, ragardless of if they share any to start with, and even people who are blind and deaf will develop complex, full tactile languages.
So it's likely that, for as long as deaf people have existed, sign language has as well, even if the people who can hear just discounted it's value as a language.)
So having non-spoken languages is entirely within the range of realism for any setting with humans.
In one of our campaigns, I had the guards of the world use deadmagic cuffs. Once a magic caster is bound by them, they cannot cast any spells until the cuffs are removed. It made for a simple yet immersive touch to the world that made for higher stakes once my players got arrested.
(I got inspired by a Skyrim critique where someone explained it made no sense that guards took away your weapons, but did nothing to your magic.)
If only their dead magic metal for magic resistance
TBH it make sense for anti-sorcerer cuffs to be mass produced in D&D.
Some people would wear that even voluntarily, cause sorcerers are one of most screwed jobs in setting.
It's like diemterium in "The Witcher" world.
@@TheRezro if I rich enough royals who can get enough deadmagic metal to make armor and shield out of it for my knight i would do that
I feel like this is one of those magic items that didn't make it to 5e because "it's not fun when used on the players." Also the Iron bands accomplish the task.
The manga/anime 'Goblin Slayer' has the titular character throwing an eye/sinus powdered irritant in a breakable container to throw at groups of goblins to make them much easier to slaughter.
The titular character runs on the rule of 'Boring But Practical'.
Also Goblin Slayer uses the aforementioned "powder bomb" to both blind and deal considerable damage to a beholder
Ah yes. All anti-magic methods always reach the Taylor Hebert inevitably: Capsaicin Bees
Yeah, but you need to be some kind of Druid to pull that off, in most cases. That or some kind of Swarmform.
Or she could use her gun, while in cover from her swarm, and distracting her opponent
Wind wall.
Now I can't stop envisioning every successful saving-throw against a 'language understood' spell as a character quickly-enough putting their fingers in their ears and shouting "La La La La".
Just mentally shark playing baby shark in your head at full volume
3:06 "most enchantment spells can be countered by earplugs"
I actually seen this happen in YuYu Hakusho. Yusuke survived getting shrunk by a spell, because he had swamp algae in his ear lol
And Odysseus vs sirens' song, even if it wasn't explicitly a spell.
@@DanielMWJ Sirens get the innate racial feat Fey Charm
Most enchantment spells don't say anything about the creature needing to hear you.
If you take absolutely nothing else from this video, the idea of a mage getting pelted with a barrage of flour sacks to the face as soon as he opens his mouth is just too hilarious not to include in your game.
Any caster can be shut-down with love. Aka a hug with a French kiss. The hug stops somatic components, the kiss stops any verbal components, and the love stops them from wanting to attack you to begin with
I go the other way for the command spell. It’s telepathic in nature and replaces the intent the target had last. Putting a verb they can’t comprehend in their noggin wouldn’t work.
Never thought my anti-mage squad would be twenty guys with slings and pepperballs, but there ya go xD
There isn't anything that indicates Verbal components are standardized across casters. It may be like The Dresden Files where each mage's trigger is personalized, but you can recognize the energy of a particular spell if you're trained.
yeah the pattern of the weave would be the same, regardless of words used
i really, really like the magic system in dresden
hell, in dresden the verbal component isn't necessary... unless you want control over the spell. You can cast using thought alone but you're likely to explode your own face, even if you're extremely skilled
I mostly think the of the words being reminders of how to cast the spell as a little mantra like "wax on wax off" or "just keep swimming".
Excellent! These countermeasures are necessary as checks and balances in a world where only a few can wield magic.
In D&D basically everyone is a wizard at this point. What actually is decent balancing factor.
24:00 magic is overpowered it's nice to see people thinking about counters.
This just makes me think of how sweet it would be to have a mute sorcerer who still did somatic movements but woven into the sign language they did. Could even be a bad guy who had his tongue cut out in the past.
He ran in to my stupid 2E barbarian from 3 comments above
The ear plug strategy would work incredibly well if anyone in the group has some kind of a telepathic channel
Rary's Telepathic Bond is a 5th level spell that does just that!
@@gorschill8456 yeah, but I wouldn't expect a group of mage hunters to have 5th level spells
I would argue Re:Command that if the listener (target) could understand the language then the magic would resonate and take effect, regardless of if the listener could hear the words spoken .
Great vid, keep it up.
- so, how do you defeat a magicker?
- physics, dear Watson.
not being able to hear when entering someone's lair is a HUGE disability
In dnd 5e you just go with an arcane focus or component pouch. That is basically all you need for most spells.
Spellcasters are more powerful at higher levels, because spells are super versatile and martials doesn’t get enough high level abilities to compete. At lower levels, the martials are generally more powerful than the casters.
We did it by flooding the target location with a effect that put down anyone hearing it.
the use of standard items to solve problems is a great way to get pc/players to think outside of the mgaical box and be creative. sand, grease, fish, eggs, nails, chain, and ash. all substances used creatively
climb bigger opponent, disarm p.271 DMG soap, flour, caltrops, ballbearings, oil, alchemist fire, acid.
I always put a sack of dead chickens to good use in every game (pay off beasts, trap, lure toward or away, mage hand puppet, cheap rations)
I've always found a bag of salt can be useful in the right situation. But I'm definitely gonna take the flower angle and bring in a bag of that too.Thank you so much
OSHA Goblin posts sign at Kitchen entrance “Warning the Dungeon OSHA Department has determined the objects and food products in this room maybe hazardous to Mages and can contribute to an early demise.”
This is my new favorite RPG channel! I love the way your videos consider the granular implications and creative possibilities of fantasy tropes.
Im loving the idea of it becoming a common practice for inner city gangs to carry around lead balls in their offhand to throw at mages the moment they start casting something
The awnser for magic armies is chemical weapons and that's how you have a magichemical (or should I say alchemical) warfare campaign
*Air mages laughing as the enemy army chockes on their own gas*
Protection from energy.
Instead of chilli, quicklime powder could be used as a cheap and effective irritant that forms a strong base on contact with water. It can cause permanent blindness, so it has historically been used as a weapon to repel oncoming enemies.
I would think with mage towers that magical traps and defensive wards would protect against non-magical invaders. Magic users would the biggest threat and the tight spaces would likely be advantageous to the defending magic user
I enjoy all of The Grungeon Master videos
Damage do scale faster than concentration checks, readying one big hit will eventually guarantee breaking concentration, but it's tactics for more elite units.
Multiple hits require multiple checks even if they do little damage which is why magic missile is a great concentration breaking spell
@@zacharyweaver276Though if they have the "Lucky Feat" then it's less likely they would fail the check.
@@morrigankasa570 they only get that three times. Nothing is stopping you hitting someone dozens of times with small rocks that deal one to two damage
@@zacharyweaver276 Fair enough, but it still is a possible factor to consider.
@@morrigankasa570 I mean that point it just feels like you're aiming to kill the mage than capture them which is fine assuming that's your goal
I can't stop thinking of a merchant supported group in a power struggle with the magic guild.
Or the nest of potion goblins who specifically target mages.
4 slingshot/trowers with flour/pepper bombs, and bee jars.
6 dudes running to get into melee, with cuffs and gags.
Everyone goes in pairs, one with earplugs, one without.
A wizard moved in across the street and he's been nothing but trouble, hopefully I can use some of this advice, thank you.
I am only starting this video, and already loving it. Regarding Command and deafness being a bar to understanding the language, beware the caster who takes advantage of Telepathy being counted as a language.
It is great to hear flour bombs and chili powder brought up. I have been working for a while on a rogue concept for whom combat is mainly a matter of throwing. Flour bombs, with or without fire to follow, are definitely part of her arsenal, as are powdered spices. For a bonus, she is a Kobold, and capsaicin only irritates mammals, fungi, and a few kinds of insects. Cayenne pepper can also be obtained at an average rate of 7.5 pinches a day from Heward’s Handy Spice Pouch, a common magical item.
For a yet more potent and universal powder bomb, try quicklime; it is not as corrosive as fiction makes out, but you are not recovering anytime soon if it gets in your eyes or if you inhale it. It’s also a lot cheaper and easier to obtain than spices (or magical spice pouches) are.
just remember, in a world with magic items everywhere. a magic shop would sell the most mundane common place and harmless tools. Shoes that tie themselves, glasses that read aloud for you. a jacket that heats up or cools down on its own.
a fire sword? a bow that never misses? a staff that can summon shadowy tentacles? or a set of armour that is immune to slashing? not a chance. in a fantasy world the local lord, monarch, governing body or even just strong arming organisation would round up all weapons, armour and tools with strong military or governing benefit for their own guard. so technically when your players burst in to try and strong arm the king, they should be faced with like 8 elite guard all wearing magic armour and with magic weapons.
Sounds like the kind of stuff you would need to find a blackmarket arms dealear...
@@TiagoTiagoT oh yeah, in a large city black market would boom setting enchanted weapons and armour, and it would cost a fortune
In the setting our group play in we have basic firearms (takes place basically a bit before ww1 in an alternative earth) so what I did to try to stop a spellcaster from activating an magical artificial that was compelling people nearby was shooting their staff to try and stop them activating it
In addition to peppers there's a plant called Rose Hips that can make an itching powder. Hard to maintain concentration if you're scratching all over.
As someone who mildly interested in plants and looked up what was available for some world-building for a city-state on low-spell component trading, magic-users would have a hard time getting away with much. Lots of mundane things such as tight spaces, patrols on the roofs and hidden in the streets below, thick walls to limit the divination spells, lead-lined rooms for meetings for aforementioned, some wearing lead-lined pockets in coats, flour-pepper/stink-flower/feces shots in slings, mancatcher polearms, extensive searching TSA style at minimum, education on signs of spellcasting , etc.
There are a whole host of regional “anti-magic” things one can use to use against magic-users.
Speaking of Sorcerers. In an Eberron campaign I played an Aberrant Mind Sorcerer who focused on controlling people. Lot of mind reading, hypnotic pattern etc: very specific skillset that this video seems to take target at. One of the highlight features for Aberrant mind combined with Subtle spell is he could essentially cast anything at any time, provided he had sorcerery points to spend with no Verbal, Somatic, or Material components. The spell list was limited but it turned out to be a very strong thing especially out side of combat.
Walk up to important NPC. Begin conversation, subtle spell + psionic spell + detect thoughts = terrifying.
Prevented by a will save.
one of top infiltrators, Silvery Barbs swapped out for a Psychic spell, to force a reroll on good insight checks. Kenku or minor illusion to do the voices.
Lore Bards cutting words works good against insight "silence you fool", "how dare you look at me"
@@mrosskne With detect thoughts you can use the surface part of the spell without the save if you're not looking to dive deep. If you do however you risk the person also knowing your reading their mind regardless of the function. At least that's how I understand it and how we ran that spell specifically. Otherwise all the saves are as usual AFAIK.
@@TeamKhandiKhane
3rd Round
Surface thoughts of any mind in the area. A target’s Will save prevents you from reading its thoughts, and you must cast detect thoughts again to have another chance. Creatures of animal intelligence (Int 1 or 2) have simple, instinctual thoughts that you can pick up.
It's literally the only part of the spell that IS affected by the will save. READ THE FUCKING RULES.
Would some sort of mask be useful against getting flour or spice thrown in your face? A bit like police use when expecting things thrown at them.
If it covers your eyes effectively yeah. Though goggles would work and then you pretestidigitation off any debris
You'd have a hard time getting a mask that can be seen through that isn't extremely fragile without polycarbonate.
@@badideagenerator2315 it could be possible with magic
That might be a win for the low level martials- stopping a spell to put on a mask, then next turn prestidigitation...next the grappler to rip off the mask and shove them into the flour cloud@@zacharyweaver276
@@badideagenerator2315 with BS materials of dnd, and alchemy that actually works it will not be an issue
Alas, as someone who oft wears earplugs, nope! Layers of modern badass earplug don't even come close to 'deafened'.
Love the spicy flour bombs!
Nope. If the rules or DM say that earplugs deafen you, they do.
Spellcasters should learn ventriloquy.
Hey Tom. Thanks a lot for all your hard work. You've really got me hooked back to worldbuilding. I just had a simple question, is english your native language ? I love your videos. Thanks.
I will say on the concentration department, against experienced spellcasters one big hit is the only way to break concentration. If you have a +9 to con saves you cannot fail the baseline version. And if you have a more reasonable low level setup like +3 or +5 and advantage it’s very unlikely a small attack will make you fail. There are also rules recommended for concentration checks not on damage. Sleetstorm and earthquake are examples. So if an enemy are has casters and yours doesn’t it might be better to fight in inclement weather.
Indeed. The video author seems to believe NAT 1 on CON saves to avoid losing concentration is an automatic fail. I have a halfling Druid with +7 to CON saves (rolled 17 and took resilient CON as first feat), so I worry only about rolling 2 on these saves. Always fun to roll 1 as halfling... at least the first time. My Wolves are safe.
On the other hand most enemy spellcasters are weak in this department, so Magic Missile is often the best killer unless they have Shield. Super disadvantage to avoid losing concentration!
Typically players will build for a good CON for the checks. I typically have a +10 by lvl 5 on my casters so I laugh unless it's a bigger hit.
@@nickm9102 how +10? +3 proficiency if sorcerer or resilient Con, but the feat is needed to boost Con stat from +3 to +4 (letting casting stat suffer) unless you roll really well... "on my casters" (sorcerers)
@@Paul-nn9oj I guess I overestimated and I seem to find items that boost saves. I'm typically point buy, 16 CON, 16 Casting stat. Wizard builds start as Artificer when possible for armor and CON proficiency when not possible Dwarf or Variant human with resilient CON. I don't like using it but you could also go custom lineage +2 CON +1 casting stat with Resilient CON, point buy so you can be 18 CON 16 Casting stat at lvl 1 you are +6
Almost all of my casters have items that give a bonus to saves. Both of my current campaign characters have items that give a +2 to saves on one and two +1 items on the other. One is lvl 19 so not a fair assessment but the other is lvl 10 and has a +9 CON save so auto success on concentration up to 21 points of damage.
Unfortunately the archdruids are able to ignore a lot of this with their lack of need for components
My man, your content is so fresh, love it!
You have a creative and logistical way of approaching TTRPGS which always makes me smile. Kudos. :D
I definitely think any serious fantasy world needs many ways to counter magic, as often magic is portrayed as so powerful it's borderline ridiculous. Frieren is a good example of this; great show, but any mage-gone-rogue could level multiple buildings in an instant. I always find these worlds so unrealistic when magic can be thrown around consequence-free, yet there haven't been magic anti-terrorism teams set up to stop this.
That's why in my world I am building magic that isn't the only power system around. Fiend are the pregenicer of Psionic, celestial are the pregenicer Aura, genie are the pregenicer of Svengali, spiritual from spirit and deities. Then Alchemy is the creation of mixing knowledge share knowledge and technology with aliens refugees who crashes landed.
Each power system has their own power source magic is mana. psionic, aura and svengali power source is chi. A spiritual and divine power source is the soul. Alchemy is like a gasoline-like energy called nigredo that they are mining for. Each of these power sources be extracted from aether to suit the kind of power each person favors.
Aether weakness is certain metals are iron, steel and adamantite. some metals are immune to aether and others power sources that are used as a universal currency like Cupronickel
Brass, Silver, and Gold. For non-mythic caster to use and defend themselves against others mythic caster and keep metal Relevant
@@majesticgothitelle1802 I feel like you haven't really explained how to stop dangers of magic usage. For example, if aether is weak to certain metals, does that mean you can stop the magic being cast, or only counter it once it's already been cast? If aether is powerful magic like most fantasy magic, how do you prevent the chaos that can be caused- aside from hoping your guards are around and quick enough to react?
Imo a fantasy world with powerful magic cannot simply rely on having bodyguards who can fight back; this is fine for a king who can afford 24/7 security, but what about everyone else? Is there a way to setup a passive security system to protect citizens, or make it so your city has a forcefield around it that prevents any magic use inside?
If you have any spells that could destroy buildings or kill multiple people extremely fast, how do your citizens prevent such tragedies from occurring- do they only rely on guards and hope the guards are stronger than the terrorists?
I'd love to hear more information on your magic counters; if metal is a counter, maybe line the walls of the city with metal so magic can't be used, that kind of thing?
I mean, that world still has their Himmels, Eisens, Starks and Krafts.... who are all borderline superhuman.
The problem is that those guys are all rare exceptions and that magic in that world is so advanced it doesn't matter.
To balance Frieren out, the peak of the normal world should reach Martial Art Myth levels (Slicing through an object without damaging it, Hitting hard enough to level mountains or the "Teleports Behind You" trick are good examples).
@@jasonfurumetarualkemisto5917 if magic is more powerful than anything in your world and more powerful than God of the world then either you have to balance it or Go with it has have everything else be worthless
@@jasonfurumetarualkemisto5917 Doesn't that just make the problem even worse? If there's a danger to society from people having superpowers, how would giving more people superpowers make society less dangerous?
Unless Frieren has some kind of godly magic rule, like people lose their superpowers if they try to do evil things... otherwise, what's to stop a person using their powers to cause untold amounts of destruction?
How to stop a wizard as a fighter.
Step 1: get a sack.
Step 2: put ‘em in the sack.
Step 3: tighten sack until you hear the crunch.
Good luck with that.
@@mrosskne not hard when you have two actions in a round and their only reaction defense spell is ac based. Or you know just rip the catalyst out of their hands.
Note: if you play a class that doesn’t use a catalyst, you don’t. That’s a variant rule and it’s the worst variant rule.
@@leadstomach9397 How will you get close enough to the wizard? Or find him, for that matter?
@@mrosskne wizards are profoundly over confident, and they have a tendency to misjudge physical dimensions. That and anybody can win any fight if you start it before they think it’s begun. The best class in this game is “Surprise Round.”
@@leadstomach9397 They aren't over confident and they don't misjudge physical dimensions. Wizards are the best class in the game at always going first in the surprise round.
I usually find the reason magic to be so OP is most game groups arent enforcing the use of spell components properly
A spellcaster with a spell component pouch is assumed to have all the material components and focuses needed for spellcasting.
@@mrosskne that's not true. only the cheap components
@@carminegraves No, that's what the book says. The rules text determines how the game works. Not you.
Ya... however, that balances the spellcasters in the opposite direction. To the point where they aren't fun to play and require, not only more to keep track of, but also less overall fun for the player.
@@PriceMw123 so ur blatantly breaking the rules because youre bad at the game. youre just a bad player
12:43 - a note, unless you automatically count Nat 1’s on skill checks/saving throws as failures, if you have enough bonuses to your concentration saves (+9 or more to get a 10+ min), you can’t rely on chip damage from repeat saves.
+9 CON mod unlikely for a secondary stat, sorcerer gets con proficiency allowing your ASI to go to CON
But you want a good spell DC so there is at least an effect to concentrate on.
At tier 2 everyones hitting for 36+damage defeating that ASI investment, better off with high DC (my opinion)
@@Paul-nn9oj this was specifically talking about the scenario where you repeatedly hit the spellcaster with small attacks to eventually break con, not a pure DnD focus where big numbers eventually come out.
It's funny this video came up today. Yesterday I was designing an item for a character that guards against visual, auditory and inhalant attacks and used similar means of doing so- covering the eyes, blocking the ears, and covering the mouth. I just added some basic magic to then replace those blocked sensations: Silent Image for visual input, constantly updating to present a view of the battlefield, Ghost Sounds for audio input, replicating the sounds, Deep Breath to create a sort of low-level magical oxygen tank, and even prestidigitation to provide smells in case that's important. The idea was that the character often fights fiends and other enemies that might use gaze attacks, blinding attacks, compulsions, and various inhaled substances.
(For anyone who's interested, I priced the Mask of the Fiend Hunter at 4,300 in 3.5)
Novice mage hunters storming into mage house with full pockets of flour, just to see said mage in Bondrewd armor
Fun video! Got me thinking!
You can still hear someone talking with earplugs in. They just dampen the sound a bit. If they did block out the sound, the drawbacks from not hearing would be bad in combat.
You don't need material components to cast a spell. You can use a focus - making spells unidentifiable by their material components. I've never made a mage without one (plus a backup).
Throwing a bag of flower at a mage will not do anything but annoy them - unless you make a magic item that will detonate it on them. Then you might as well have it ignite it too.
The Mage Slayer feat is the best way to deal with mages and sorcerers. Closing with them alone makes their ranged spell attacks have disadvantage.
Cover/concealment will block line of sight, so will a bag over their head. Many spells require this.
Rogues that can hide as a bonus action are great for taking out mages. Move, shoot (sneak attack hopefully), move, hide.
Take away their foci and component pouch.
The Yuan-ti race have magic resistance. Another good start.
Although I now realize that I'm not talking about household items (except for the bag). Ah well. :)
Sorcerer biggest strength, their natural charisma
“No that wasn’t a fireball, just a bomb”
This video has a lot of crossover potential with that magical impact on guards video lol
A D&D I played with once had a great answer for spellcasters (after capture). He home brewed an anklet that caused pain and damage if the wearer tried to cast a spell.
Throwing a large blanket over a wizard does actually stop him from casting most of his spells
This is pretty interesting, I've been thinking up non magical methods of magic prevention in my worlds as well.
Don't forget Lead coated Helmets or Armor to prevent most forms of Mind Reading and Divination.
Of course a policy of never using your real names and using communal rather than personal equipment to prevent Scrying.
Lead lined rooms to prevent spying on meetings of national importance
Lead doesn't stop mind reading you need tin for that as anyone should know
If we separate the game mechanics of dnd, realistically it would be much easier to counter a mage in close quarters. In real life, police try to keep about 11 feet between themselves and anyone they deem dangerous, this is because someone with a knife will be able to cross about 10 feet in the time it takes for them to draw a gun. A similar principle applies to magic. It's hard to cast a spell if someone is in your face with a sword or otherwise pulverising your jaw with their choice of weapon.
But, of course, the opposite is true as well. There's no real reason why a mage shouldn't be trained in using a melee weapon to defend themselves. The mage's general martial lack is part of the game mechanics, so in a realistic fight the warrior will close the distance while the mage will draw a weapon of their own, or otherwise conjure one with a quick spell.
'There's no real reason why a mage shouldn't be trained in using a melee weapon to defend themselves' EXACTLY this. Mages are always portrayed standing in the back slinging spells, but why would any mage willingly go out into combat situations without knowing some basic self-defence? Unless the mage has a superior weapon like a wand (I guess wands are the fantasy equivalent of guns?), I don't see why everyone would have a sword except for the mage.
I play a Bladesinger Wizard. While I usually am standing in the back casting spells, I can roll in melee just fine if they want to take it there... Artificer dip and War Caster, so Proficiency, Advantage, and a Bonus to CON saves. I haven't lost concentration yet.
Dream Lilly is one of my favorite items as it makes you immune to the fear effect among other useful effects.
I'm seeing want ads for sorcerers to serve as body guards for non-sorcerer mages
Basic move that I’m surprised we don’t see used more: strangulation.
The way I’d rule it: grapple check. You are literally grappling the carter’s neck. So long as they can’t breath, they also can’t cast verbal components.
From there treat it like drowning, specifically drowning after they have run out of breath unless the Mage has somehow been able to take a deep breath beforehand. I believe that in RAW that’s a number of rounds equal to the strangulee’s con mod, then they fall to 0hp KO. That’s assuming you want them alive though: it would probably be easier just to have your Buddy stab them a few times while you strangle since mages aren’t known for their durability
The problem with grand halls is the bane of wizards everywhere: stealth archers. While you have the room to unleash hell on your enemies, you are at risk of sniper archers.
Wouldn't that be solved by a ward that is triggered when ranged weapons are used for wind wall?
Anti-mages could make use of specialised weapons;
Perhaps they could use customised ammunition that splits into multiple smaller projectiles midair, or miniature darts similar to bo shurikens that an individual can throw multiple of. This would allow the anti-mages to cause multiple instances of damage per attack.
Potentially anti-mages could make use of "pellet bows" to launch flour bombs further than slings.
Weapons similar to kusarigamas could potentially be used to restrain spellcasters' arms and spellcasting focuses.
Some other ideas;
Anti-mages could potentially use falconers to kill familliars.
Mage hunters could make use of longbowmen shooting from 600 feet away, outranging most attack spells by a very long distance while the mage is unable to teleport away due to the flour bombs.
Falconer is wild, and of course some hounds go hard too.
I’ve been thinking so hard about this and ten archers with flourbombs might best my best idea
I may use some of these ideas, thank you!
Laughs in FireBall and Cloud of Dagger Spam
Y'know, I'd thought of some of these for use with my backwoods witch character, but you've given me *SO* much more ammonto torment my DM with!
As always, I really appreciate your analysis. With my current group I’m playing Savant (see Laserllama homebrew) and have been struggling to find good ways to be useful in combat as an intelligence focused non-caster. Though my GM may rule differently on the effects it is refreshing to think about the possible results a simple bag of flour might yield. I also wonder if substantial ongoing noise might prove nearly as disruptive to many spells. It would certainly make one reflect on a dragons roar a bit differently if it effectively deafened casters for a period if not just as an immediate more immediate interruption. For that matter, any sufficiently loud noise in an enclosed space might suffice.
I've definitely used a few spell-bluffing setups before (usually built into flavor rather than taking any real mechanical advantage of them, but you can do a lot of great countering with readied actions if you can predict what the opponent is going to do).
One of my favorite things I've done in a similar vein to some of these (to the point that I've basically made it into a bit of house rule lore as a viable tactic, and might use it in a story someday) is an NPC in one my campaigns who wears a tongue piercing made of iron to protect himself from accidental verbal contracts with the fae.
It should be mentioned that earplugs aren't *that* reliable. If the spellcaster realizes you can't hear them then they can just yell so you can. It seems like to be more reliable this strategy must completely deafen you (which earplugs might not be capable of) or you need to be making enough loud noise to drown out the spellcasters yelling.
Some earplugs / earmuffs combo should do the trick
Sure but then you give up the advantage of the caster not knowing what to target you with.
I approached with dread to this, but it was well done abd logical. I have found myself viewing how magic would effect my world.
aaaaand now this is inspiring my next character
Before the MTG mechanics of a "counterspell" infested D&D, all we had were mundane methods to prevent/disrupt a wizard's (or cleric's) casting.
Ugh. This reminds me of the time Professor Dungeon Master of @DUNGEONCRAFT1 tried to ramp things up by having the monsters target the cleric's holy symbol or the bard's instrument when attacking; that video is now marked "private". Remember, anything you (the DM) does against the characters, the players will do against the NPCs. So, if you want your game to devolve into flour slinging fights...
My exact opinion, there are way more elegant meccanics you can introduce in your game to give ways to deal with spellcasters.
(Also there is a reason why we don't see many hirelings nowadays, so the idea of a player comanding a squadron of anti mages is an absolute nightmare to actually run at the table)
Irl flour explosions are nearly impossible to trigger deliberately. The milled flour you'd have around the house for cooking isn't fine enough. Grain processing combustions occur when the extremely finely processed flour dust becomes an air fuel mixture due to the vibrations of the machinery. Just chucking a flour ball at somebody's face won't accomplish that, but if you mixed the flour with some coal dust and chili powder it'd certainly be a much better mage suffering inducing concoction. The coal dust would make it far more combustable and the chili powder would make blinding and resperitory interruption much harsher.
The counterplay to all this is, mind you, wearing a veil to conceal who the caster is targeting, using mold earth to create cover, *traps* and of course *allies.*
@@bodaciouschad "Warding Wind" for flour- chilli- fire- and projectile protection
So when imprisoning a wizard....
Handcuffs, blind fold, ring gag and plug so they can still be fed...
I see why it's called a dungeon now.
Deep Dark Fantasy
I'm imagining a team of mage-killers.
A rogue/bard that uses acting and stealth to stalk them, gathering intel (potentially even their current spells), getting close enough to poison or maim to prevent casting.
An old fighter who has had a lot of experience with magic such that he can recognize many spells on sight, and is never caught unprepared. (One fun idea i had was putting a blade on the handle of his weapon or in his shoe, so if he gets charmed, he is unable to attack because using his weapon or moving would cause him to hurt himself)
I imagine having spells like silence, sleep, or similar spells would also be incredibly useful. So they would likely have a spellcaster of their own.
This is all assuming the objective is to capture the target rather than kill. I'm imagining a party assembled from a mix of military and bounty hunter backgrounds to take down mages on under the order of some authority.
If the way to shut down verbal components in a fight is to hit them with an egg full of irritants the counter to that is goggles (which could fit with a certain wizard aesthetic) and a mask
To The Grungeon Master,
I, the Guardian Sage, recently watched a TH-cam video that was a reading of the reddit short story "Stan vs the Dragon." In the story a modern concept is introduced into the fantasy setting, and I'm curious as to if you would be willing to make a video about it and talk about the history as well as the possible implications that it could have for worldbuilding and roleplaying. As always, I enjoyed this video and I look forward to seeing what interesting ideas you have. May your sword stay sharp!
There's some wording for spells that says something to the effect of "a target in range" only some specific spells say "a target you can see." I've also had DMs rule grappling doesn't stop a spell casters somatic component. D&D has no combat rules for choking. Best item that may work is dust of sneezing and choking, but that also affects the user.
1) Most of these likely classifies as war crimes.
2) Most of "tiny wizard hideouts" are bigger on the inside, unless the caster is braindead.
3) A caster that allowed enemies to come close enough to throw flour is already dead.
4) Ice Knife and probably Dragon Breath (if already active) go brr. But yeah, if there's a witch hunt, Air Bubble and gas masks will quickly become a must have.
5) No matter how effective they are, flour bombs and such are a Dex save effects, as casters can and will cover their face. And a caster with no points in Dex is already dead, as this would mean abysmal base DC. As for flour cloud preventing sight - well, it works both ways, and non-Charisma casters should be able to make it into their advantage.
6) Bolos or whatever these ropes with balls are called. Somatic components are important as well.
Wow this pretty much instantly makes wall of wind a FAR better spell, not only does it rebuff projectile weaponry and thrown items (I’d even have the power spray be a detriment to the non-magic users in this case) but I can imagine many swarm monsters would have a hard time getting past it too.
Yes with out a spell protecting you what’s stopping a fighter hauling off and throwing a beehive at a wizard? Wind wall that’s what.
“Think fast!”
“SureIt’s my forte, simpleton”
YES! GIVE us more anti-mage videos! Me and a friend of mine really love stuff like this for world building and like working on how things like this would function! So for the love of heaven PLEASE give us more of this Grungeon Master! We would adore it if you did!
On top of that it is interesting because for the setting the two of us were crafting the whole metamagic thing wouldn't be nearly as much of an issue since for our setting in particular sorcerors have been banned PRIMARILY due to the fact that pretty much all the sorc origins (even wild magic) don't exist in the setting since there is NO planar wheel (all associated spells like planeshift are banned), and the dragons of the world are for the most part, feral. This is a realm that focuses mostly on the schemes of humanoids on the whole at a slightly more down to earth level.
@mrzeloswilder
"On top of that it is interesting because for the setting the two of us were crafting the whole metamagic thing wouldn't be nearly as much of an issue since for our setting in particular sorcerors have been banned PRIMARILY due to the fact that pretty much all the sorc origins (even wild magic) don't exist in the setting since there is NO planar wheel (all associated spells like planeshift are banned), and the dragons of the world are for the most part, feral. This is a realm that focuses mostly on the schemes of humanoids on the whole at a slightly more down to earth level."
well that really fucks over kobolds, first they can't be sorc's which greatly limits them, and dragons are basically just animals which makes worshiping beyond stupid, thirdly it calls into question their draconic blood.
which just means the other races can much more easily enslave them, or that kobolds would just make bottom of a lot of societies social hierarchy and mix in their connection with dragons they will look down upon even further just being seen as barely better than mere animals.
honestly sounds like kobolds would be the biggest underdog and would be fun to play as.
@@chongwillson972 Interesting insights. I love comments like this. But part of the reason I worded it the way I did is that for the setting we are crafting we tried to dial back as high of a fantasy setting it was. (My friend has a burning disdain for the martial/caster divide in 5E).
So for the most part a lot of player races were limited due to not meshing with the setting. For example kobolds probably wouldn't have existed due to the above things with dragons. Kobolds though unlike half the races we eliminated (genasi, tieflings, githyanki etc) are the highest likelihood of an alternate rewriting into the setting due to convergent evolution theory. IE instead of everything becoming crabs, everything ends up becoming kobolds lol.
Something to note: most material components can be ignored if you either use a focus (in 5e) or take a feat (in 3.5/pf), when even applicable.
This premise makes a lot of sense, and it would be very natural and reasonable for normal people in a fantasy world to popularly use certain things like that as anti-mage weapons in reaction to how dangerous a wizard could realistically be compared to anyone who uses more physical means of fighting. Specifically, I imagine someone taking the flour idea and going further with it would be common in any world where a lot of spells rely on vision and/or speaking. You could produce a small packet designed to easily burst on any impact and fill that with some kind of choking powder which would probably be flour, then have a lot of fighters just carry a few of those in a pouch, ready to throw them at mages in order to reduce the threat.
Since nearly all worlds require at least some level of arm movement and often hand gestures for spellcasting, the use of constricting nets would be another popular tool against a dangerous mage, especially if someone had the task of hunting one down or knew in advance they'd be attacked by one. Some kind of crossbow-launched net tool would be a very logical invention for mundane people to develop and also very plausible since it wouldn't rely on any particularly advanced technology, just smithing, rope-making, and a bit of tinkering.
There are also three practical liquids that can be very terrible for a mage to deal with. Any effective method of throwing water and soaking a mage would make lightning spells risky to their own safety, throwing (ideally hot) grease at them could have a similar risk for fire spells and if you're lucky cause them to slip or lose focus a little bit, and finally vials of acid. That last one obviously is expensive and also works on any exposed person, but you'd need an incredibly resilient mage in order for them to actually manage casting competently while their flesh is being seared by agonizing acid.
Total result: Nets, flour pouches, and some means of throwing or slinging water mixed with grease or just plain acid on mages would all be very practical and in any reasonable world very popular, methods of stopping them in conjunction with the usual ways you'd fight a person.
As for how one can believably have acid in a fantasy setting available to normal people... It's not hard at all. Hydrochloric acid, produced naturally in a human stomach, can actually cause serious burns or irritation in some cases when it comes into contact with skin or eyes. If your world has alchemy like so many do, you can just say the acid comes from a particular animal's gut or even human barf, and is then amplified by alchemists in order to weaponize it from it's natural function of just breaking down food. Disgusting, but this could explain having a burning acid weapon in a fantasy world, and would double as an explanation for a particular creature being hunted down. If you want to implement a creature that spits something in it's prey's face that would make it very natural for an alchemist to eventually come up with the plan to mimic such an attack and start experimenting in his lab to get something similar for humans to use, or just get his hands on the creature are alter the existing material to be more effective.
This idea makes at least as much sense as the already-common pattern of troll's blood being a sought-after substance for healing. Have some kind of monster that spits corrosive stuff at people, someone will want to weaponize it for humans. Have troll known for it's rapid regeneration powers, someone will want to learn how it does that and take the benefit for medical uses.
One step further from this, all you need is another person to see what alchemists have produced and look into manufacturing a tool to propel it across longer distances, likely through a bursting container launched by slingshot or crossbow.
You know, single wind based spell can f up hunters with their own ammunition
@@user-cd5fm3hh9k It could, depending on the world. Air manipulation magic is just very OP
@@UnswimmingFishYT
I LOVE IT when mages outsmart mage hunters like that, because mages ARE NOT DUMB!
@@chongwillson972 It could be interesting to see a scenario in which a mage and a group of people planning to kill him use various counters on each other, with different spells and tools being used until one side eventually wins or they end up killing each other.
Iron helm/mask covered with a thin layer of lead or lead paint. Prevents psychic/psionic and more importantly teleportation.
My favorite way of dealing with spellcasters as both a player and a dm(mostly playing 3.5 and Pathfinder): cast silence on a crossbow bolt and target the caster. No save plus a 20-50% chance of spell faliure.
Stealth is likely your strongest counter, avoid ever being in open combat, make surprise attacks then break contact. If you hit him with enough attacks while surprised you can KO before he can use a Reaction.
The spiral staircase works because as a mage i want to be sure that i limit how many can threaten or sight me at once. Also in the open i cant use single target spells easily while still controlling the approach. Narrow halls make a attackers fellow allies into difficult terrain and obstruct and slow each other.
The wizard's tower could actually be quite effective if you revise the design. Specifically, you could replace the spiral staircase with a ladder. It has the same bottleneck advantage, but instead of shortening the line of sight, it makes it incredibly long, giving you plenty of time to sling firebolts and the like down at the attackers from the hatch. Meanwhile, they can't fire their bows back up at you because they need to keep at least one hand on the ladder. On top of that, with the simple addition of some windows, the room at the top becomes less of an isolated space, and more of a vantage point that you can use to sling spells at attackers before they even reach the tower in the first place, provided you see them coming.