Yep I agree! The package is more expensive than 6 exalted who will kill harder and live longer. Really feels like we are being pushed into Index: Eightbound now
I actually have an interesting eightbound heavy angron list that I'm taking to WCW that doesn't have invocatus in, and it's been doing a lot of work in my local meta
My opinion angron and both eightbound needed to go up in points. How much idk. What got nerfed needed to be left alone. Now we are slowly getting boxed into 8 bound spam.
Ryan B, Brian and I have been cooking up a pretty nasty iteration which doesn't lose a unit, just replaces FOKJug with 5 zerks. I'll be using it at a GT next weekend, but I could see it becoming the default meta list going forward. At least in this balance period
I spent the past year painting up my World Eaters army including an impressive (for me) MoE and 30 berzerkers and GW went and threw their balance team down a flight of stairs then handed them the nerf pencil. Its a tad demoralising.
It can for sure be demoralising, but I would echo the reminder that this balance window is veeery short so hopefully in december we can expect some good news! Everytime I feel demoralised and beat down by changes, I remember the most important words Kharn ever said; Get Up.
I run a Lord on jug with a max unit of exulted eightbound for the hard hitters in my army them on one flank and gron on other flak 2 scary fast threats
My list style is very different apparently. I now have angron, foot prince w helm, winged prince w glaive and a winged prince base. I only have 6 of each 8b and they’re all in the list. Tried terminators but they’re just ok.
Our lists are tiny enough as it is. Ive switched to csm as im tired of thr world eater index. Now i have innumerable activations, list variation, vindicators, dark pacts, incredible base lords...
I feel this data patch did anti internal balance excluding csm and that's why I'm frustrated personally. Regardless, thank you guys for the video! It was fun and great to hear your thoughts
I personally have a major problem with the surge change and am actually going to send that email saying they got it wrong. They copied our ability, gave it to a better unit, who could actually abuse it, and nerfed us because of it, instead of just hitting the unit(from another army) that was the problem. Extremly short sighted change, and I'm just going to go back to my lists with no Berzerkers since I dont need MoE for my local meta.
When Game Design says "internal balance", and they nerf a faction, the are active responding to complaints of " unfun", meaning appeasing the ones that cry the loudest. It often results in neglect of genuine issues, Encouraging further negative complaints(because GW will act on them), creates ineffective problem solving, and forms a kind of entitlement to be on top. In some recent experiments the dev team are attempting to implement balances changing rules contrasting between Elite/MSU playstyles. And in many cases several armies that need assistance don't get a deserved improvement which is obviously unfortunate for the community.
@@eddiemadethisasmr correct, but they didn't do that either with the reinforcements strats being once per game, or the changes to the free stratagem abilities. No idea why, could be because they might change their mind again later, or its too much work to update all the indexes, or they want all those rules to be written the same, so the same balance dataslate update applies... It will be interesting to see if they take these updates into account when making new codexes, but I don't think we will find out till next year.
When the eightbound were reduced in points, I thought there was something weird going on - what was their reasoning? Perhaps they just want you to sell more eightbound before our codex comes out and eightbound are nerfed/balanced. Feels like we are being further being boxed into eightbound spam.
Idk how they can possibly sell anymore when most world eater players already are maxed out! Just poor decision making in my opinion. Make me buy a predator GW.
It just feels like we're being punished for doing what we have to do. Paying more tax and getting less income I cant help but feel that Berzerkers just need a better rule then Blood Surge if they can only do it once
Personally I think zerks suffer from 2 issues; 1. They don't hit hard enough in a world where AOC is prevalent and they are mostly ap1 2. They lack a diverse pool of leader units who can meaningfully buff their output
We cant even stand toe 2 toe atm against orks.....absolute blood bath, only thing we have that is amazing is exalted 8, but as soon as the 9million Ork saws and power klaws look at them they fall over dead...EVERY time....
To be fair..moe, is better than valoris atm. Fights first + hit roll and wound roll against a unit that contain a character, is a massive bonus. Even more so when he has devastating wounds. When valoris had 1 fight first per battle ability he was weighted at 200 points or so.
@@TheRedPath Oh yeah. And with the codex writers, he'll get worse. Fingers crossed you guys don't get the b-team like custodes did. We do not like our single monobuild.
So for an army that has little in the way of unit choices for army composition we are being forced in one direction. I refuse to participate in buying all these 8 bound. I believe 8 bound will get nerfed on the new codex release when we get bezerker cav then they will be the new hotness, i think this is to get as many 8 bound out the door as possible before that happens. Just my 2 cents
I would say that losing moe does remove a lot of tools that one has access to in a list. Fight first and precision are both very important things for our army to have
@TheRedPath yeah come to think of it, Kharn and 10 berzerks is 280 points... ie exactly 2 squads of eightbound, and the rhino they were in can be swapped for chaos spawns for extra objective play... decisions decisions
So what you’re saying is a list like this isn’t viable: (Edited for viability) Angron Lord Invocatus WDP w/ Helm WDP 3x10 Jakhals 2x3 Eightbound 1x6 Exalted Eightbound 2x5 Terminators 1x2 Spawn
I'd say probably not at a high level (4-1/5-0). It doesn't have the unit numbers to be able to do secondaries/primary scoring so you're going to have situations where valuable combat units will have to spend turns carrying out actions
how dare they touch our MoE!! the point increases- not so bad, but the surge change is reaaaally, 10 zerkers with MoE or Kharn are A LOT worse. But, just play eightbound or termies and it's a-ok.
Personally I don't think they're a LOT worse, just means you can't use them quite as aggressively and the rhino for protection is more useful. Also the points changes don't make a major difference either overall I believe they will be in exactly the same position.
@@bradshilton9753 The first blood surge is the most important one, sure, but many armies can't nuke 10 zerkers with MoE with 2-3 units, like Dark Eldar or normal edar for example. So they need the give you an enormous distance.
I'm running Daemon Prince with Helm, Invo, 20 Terminators, all the rest as 8bound. Great to stage and threaten.
Helmet prince is a lot of fun
I'm against how many points go into MoE, Rhino, and 10 Zerks. Doesn't seem worth it when they do like one thing and get killed.
Yep I agree! The package is more expensive than 6 exalted who will kill harder and live longer. Really feels like we are being pushed into Index: Eightbound now
I actually have an interesting eightbound heavy angron list that I'm taking to WCW that doesn't have invocatus in, and it's been doing a lot of work in my local meta
this change just makes lord invocatus even more load-bearing, a codex with rules changes for avocado would totally obliterate the army
They will probably drop berserkers down to compensate later on. They should also drop the price of glaive it is pricy for what it does now
I think it’s time to roll out the land raiders
This is the "we have Angron at home" nerf with the WDP going down 25 randomly
Angron from Wish is the winged prince
If they want berzerkers to be good. Bring back 20-Mans.
I'd love this, but it would probably entice them to hit MoE harder due to his fights first
I'd love this!
Okay hear me out, Knight Rampager ally.🤠
I thought this said only
My opinion angron and both eightbound needed to go up in points. How much idk.
What got nerfed needed to be left alone.
Now we are slowly getting boxed into 8 bound spam.
Im currently painting Anthony Vanillas list and im debating cutting 1 unit of Jakhals or the spawns... still got alot of trim to paint haha.
Ryan B, Brian and I have been cooking up a pretty nasty iteration which doesn't lose a unit, just replaces FOKJug with 5 zerks. I'll be using it at a GT next weekend, but I could see it becoming the default meta list going forward. At least in this balance period
@@TheRedPathFOKJug?
@@TheRedPathwhole list pls
a Glaive MoE and 10 zerkers costs the same as 2 forgefiends and thats wild to me
The glaive moe + zerk + rhino package is now pretty hefty in cost, that's for sure
I spent the past year painting up my World Eaters army including an impressive (for me) MoE and 30 berzerkers and GW went and threw their balance team down a flight of stairs then handed them the nerf pencil. Its a tad demoralising.
It can for sure be demoralising, but I would echo the reminder that this balance window is veeery short so hopefully in december we can expect some good news! Everytime I feel demoralised and beat down by changes, I remember the most important words Kharn ever said; Get Up.
@@TheRedPath what makes you think december will be good news? and not (more) bad news?
I already thought the zerker moe package was too expensive this is just the nail in the coffin
30 terminators for the win !
At least we still have our terminator blocks that weren't messed with. 30 terminators.
30:43 awesome internal balance suggestion, How are they so bad at rules design? #factionroulette
I run a Lord on jug with a max unit of exulted eightbound for the hard hitters in my army them on one flank and gron on other flak 2 scary fast threats
My list style is very different apparently. I now have angron, foot prince w helm, winged prince w glaive and a winged prince base. I only have 6 of each 8b and they’re all in the list. Tried terminators but they’re just ok.
Our lists are tiny enough as it is. Ive switched to csm as im tired of thr world eater index. Now i have innumerable activations, list variation, vindicators, dark pacts, incredible base lords...
Yeah, CSM do have a ton of options!
Dangit! I just painted some terminators and spawn
I feel this data patch did anti internal balance excluding csm and that's why I'm frustrated personally.
Regardless, thank you guys for the video! It was fun and great to hear your thoughts
Yeah the internal balance on some armies (CSM) was done quite well, but others have been left in the doldrums a tad.
I personally have a major problem with the surge change and am actually going to send that email saying they got it wrong.
They copied our ability, gave it to a better unit, who could actually abuse it, and nerfed us because of it, instead of just hitting the unit(from another army) that was the problem. Extremly short sighted change, and I'm just going to go back to my lists with no Berzerkers since I dont need MoE for my local meta.
When Game Design says "internal balance", and they nerf a faction, the are active responding to complaints of " unfun", meaning appeasing the ones that cry the loudest. It often results in neglect of genuine issues, Encouraging further negative complaints(because GW will act on them), creates ineffective problem solving, and forms a kind of entitlement to be on top. In some recent experiments the dev team are attempting to implement balances changing rules contrasting between Elite/MSU playstyles. And in many cases several armies that need assistance don't get a deserved improvement which is obviously unfortunate for the community.
Doesn’t world eaters surge still work the same way? I don’t think the index wording changed at all
It was a general rule change to all "surge" type moves that affects the berserkers
@@mischa3726 I understand that they didn’t update the verbiage in the index
@@eddiemadethisasmr correct, but they didn't do that either with the reinforcements strats being once per game, or the changes to the free stratagem abilities. No idea why, could be because they might change their mind again later, or its too much work to update all the indexes, or they want all those rules to be written the same, so the same balance dataslate update applies...
It will be interesting to see if they take these updates into account when making new codexes, but I don't think we will find out till next year.
Agree with everything but the take on BA, sure at a high level they're good, but I don't think they're going to be in our nightmares
When the eightbound were reduced in points, I thought there was something weird going on - what was their reasoning? Perhaps they just want you to sell more eightbound before our codex comes out and eightbound are nerfed/balanced.
Feels like we are being further being boxed into eightbound spam.
Idk how they can possibly sell anymore when most world eater players already are maxed out! Just poor decision making in my opinion. Make me buy a predator GW.
@@TheRedPath 36 eightbound??? 😜
@@TheRedPath at LGT I played against a WE army wit 6 preds, it was a very strange list to go up against with my own WE.
It just feels like we're being punished for doing what we have to do. Paying more tax and getting less income
I cant help but feel that Berzerkers just need a better rule then Blood Surge if they can only do it once
Personally I think zerks suffer from 2 issues;
1. They don't hit hard enough in a world where AOC is prevalent and they are mostly ap1
2. They lack a diverse pool of leader units who can meaningfully buff their output
We cant even stand toe 2 toe atm against orks.....absolute blood bath, only thing we have that is amazing is exalted 8, but as soon as the 9million Ork saws and power klaws look at them they fall over dead...EVERY time....
🙏
The main problem is still angron randomly coming back. Thats just brutally bad game design.
But wont resolve before the codex.
Exalted eightbound are not even close to as durable as 3 deathshroud.
How MoE is 50+% more than a Judicar, which is effectively the same model? I just don't get it.
Yeah I think honestly its bc people dont lean on the jud as hard as we lean on moe. Dumb reason, but might be it
@@TheRedPathwhich is even more perplexing as they have 10 million other options to lead their foot infantry and we don't.
To be fair..moe, is better than valoris atm. Fights first + hit roll and wound roll against a unit that contain a character, is a massive bonus. Even more so when he has devastating wounds. When valoris had 1 fight first per battle ability he was weighted at 200 points or so.
Yeah on paper I get it, I just find it hilarious that one of the main heroes of the Imperium and some random angry dude are almost the same points
@@TheRedPath Oh yeah. And with the codex writers, he'll get worse. Fingers crossed you guys don't get the b-team like custodes did. We do not like our single monobuild.
So for an army that has little in the way of unit choices for army composition we are being forced in one direction. I refuse to participate in buying all these 8 bound. I believe 8 bound will get nerfed on the new codex release when we get bezerker cav then they will be the new hotness, i think this is to get as many 8 bound out the door as possible before that happens. Just my 2 cents
My list escaped somewhat unscathed - had to swap the MoE with Glaive for Kharn, otherwise everything is the same
I would say that losing moe does remove a lot of tools that one has access to in a list. Fight first and precision are both very important things for our army to have
@TheRedPath yeah come to think of it, Kharn and 10 berzerks is 280 points... ie exactly 2 squads of eightbound, and the rhino they were in can be swapped for chaos spawns for extra objective play... decisions decisions
And then kharn can possibly kill off models without the rhino.
So what you’re saying is a list like this isn’t viable:
(Edited for viability)
Angron
Lord Invocatus
WDP w/ Helm
WDP
3x10 Jakhals
2x3 Eightbound
1x6 Exalted Eightbound
2x5 Terminators
1x2 Spawn
Needs chaos spawns to clear annoying screens and complete actions
I'd say probably not at a high level (4-1/5-0). It doesn't have the unit numbers to be able to do secondaries/primary scoring so you're going to have situations where valuable combat units will have to spend turns carrying out actions
@@TheRedPath I edited the above to include more scoring units
how dare they touch our MoE!! the point increases- not so bad, but the surge change is reaaaally, 10 zerkers with MoE or Kharn are A LOT worse.
But, just play eightbound or termies and it's a-ok.
Personally I don't think they're a LOT worse, just means you can't use them quite as aggressively and the rhino for protection is more useful.
Also the points changes don't make a major difference either overall I believe they will be in exactly the same position.
@@bradshilton9753 The first blood surge is the most important one, sure, but many armies can't nuke 10 zerkers with MoE with 2-3 units, like Dark Eldar or normal edar for example. So they need the give you an enormous distance.
I don’t want to buy anymore eightbound !
Lol