This takes me back 30 years. I was working at Citroën Germany’s homologation department then, and the ZX 16V used an iteration of basically the same engine. It was homologated at 152 bhp. That was a bad thing, because there was a threshold in insurance cost at 150 hp, which was why all the competitors were below that threshold - some marketing genius had decided that the ZX have two more hp to claim some bragging rights. Trouble was, insurance doubled in price for that small matter. What made it worse though was that the factory made specimens failed to reach even 150 - they even put out rather less. So the buyers (extremely few) weren’t happy. It’s fair to say they were rather mad, in fact, and had their lawyers writing unfriendly letters. The TÜV (German technical expert organisation) that worked with us offered to help. It was possible, by means of a certificate of their making, to change the power rating in the car’s registration to 150, so that at least (financial) injury would be spared to whom was feeling the insult of driving a car that didn’t match the official power ratings. A date was set for a ride on the TÜV’s rolling road, to establish the degree of limp of a standard ZX 16V, and I procured a press car. But in the meantime, the after sales department had found out why the rating wasn’t matched by production cars: the oil dipstick was too short. This resulted in having more oil in the engine, which meant that the crankshaft was happily splashing in the oil pan like a fat teenage boy in a swimming pool, resulting in a big waste of energy. The solution was a longer dipstick, and of course the press cars had immediately been so equipped. They carried one litre less dinosaur juice than before, and the crankshaft just kissed the surface of the oil instead of taking a deep dive. You can almost imagine the rest: as I showed up for the power test, the measured output even exceeded the previous rating and was more in the 155 bhp neighbourhood. I overcame a slight embarrassment and suggested that the car was low on oil, and that I’d be back immediately. With a pint or so more of the stuff in its belly, the engine did indeed lose 10 hp, and the engineers said that they would make an average of both measures and were happy to provide the solution we had arranged beforehand.
Is that why the official power rating was reduced in all markets? I know '93 Xantia 16V's had 152 hp, but then the '94 and '95 models (including the Activa) only got 150 according to Citroën. I always thought it pertained to emissions.
@ I don’t remember the full detail, but it is very possible - Germany was difficult terrain for PSA mostly because they rarely took it into account when they defined the specifications, and then would have to make corrections. On the other hand, emissions legislation evolved rapidly during this 1990s, and would often involve changes that also affected engine power. It’s possible that this was a combination of both: they changed the catalyst and the mapping of the ECU, and thus had to make a new homologation, so they decided that they wanted a value that suited one of the biggest markets a bit better. There is a certain tolerance that is applied when authorities will check the conformity of production with the homologation papers, so they could have declared the lower value even if the output was in fact unchanged. On paper, it would look as if there was an emission-regulation cause to a marginal loss of power.
@@thomasalbrecht5914 I think they learned from the 16V though. The ES9 v6 that came out for the '97 model year had 194hp according to Citroën, which I think had to do with German regulations at the time as well? Many of its contemporaries shared the same power figure (eg the 328i, A4 2.8 5V, C230 Kompressor and the Passat VR6). On a dyno the ES9 at least tends to do 200+ hp
@@SterkeYerke5555, I was going to suggest the Volvo V70XC of that era could be in the same list ... then I googled and its 2.5 turbo charged 5 pot is listed as 193 ps, only 190 hp ... I miss-remembered the power output of the car I miss the most!
@ That is indeed correct, well spotted! It changed later, because the insurance system in Germany was modified and power output figures became immaterial. In fact, for comprehensive insurance, it had always been somewhat different. And this particular comprehensive insurance system had been even more alien to my French colleagues - until I had changed to the marketing department and given them a full description of it. At this stage, Jean-Martin Folz became CEO of PSA, and he was determined to put more emphasis onto the requirements of the German market, simply because it was the biggest, and its manufacturers were setting the pace. So French marketeers and engineers quickly became experts in things like the German insurance system.
I love BXs. One of my biggest car regrets was not buying one in 1996 (at auction) when I was seeking a new car with my dad. Went for a 405, which was a bit too boring.
And now I really really want a BX again. That exhaust note!!!. Back in the vet late '80s, I had the pleasure of bombing around in a nearly brand new BX14... something or other. I remember it being far more nippy than anything else I had driven with that sort of cubic capacity, ( although, on recollection, my Renault 18 1.4 GTL was pretty nippy). I also remember the absolutely fantastic seats and what was for the time, massive level of kit. It even had four electric windows and a tilt/slide sunroof. Whatever more could I have wanted?!
A BAH video to finish off the year, like a cherry on top a great year of many exciting videos. Thank you for sharing and I wish you the most pleasant and fun new year's celebrations!
In 1990 I worked for wadham stringer Granada road Southsea Portsmouth They were Citroen nissan and rover main dealers at the time Saw pleanty of those come in I was in the crash repair shop as a panel beater
There's a cunning Film School dissolve at about 5:20 that had me thinking for a moment that your ghost or astral projections was getting out of BAH. Here's wishing you a minimally fraught 2025 (I mean, you've got to be realistic.)
One of the few front wheel drive cars that if the handbrake is even remotely dragging it makes a difference 😂 regardless of figures that engine is sounds absolutely on song coming up, and sorry to say as a ford guy in the 90s I had the front callipers off every single one of them that came in my local scrapyard for erm……. Reasons…. 😅
ever need some work on that BX suspension... you may well have the gear yourself.. but I know a legend that has worked on those BX's since they were new!
🤩🤩 Thank you for sharing it , it's a good present for the end of the year . For a moment I was thinking that you have a 🙀alyser one ... maybe new multipole sparks and Mobil One will do wonders ... I'm wondering if it's possible to put some iridium spark plugs , or no benefit ... I have to see if it's possible for my BX GTi 1.6 115Hp ;3
@@UPnDOWN Not a big difference but they wear less because iridium is a harder metal. It also has excellent conductivity so there is a hotter spark. From my experience on 16V and 20V Volvo's they run great on them. Equivalent heatrange, same gaps of course.
Why do older cars sound so much better than modern stuff? I bet that barometric pressure and even humidity will make a difference to the recorded figures. Wow! When I think about the potential material that the dyno could produce. Testing all the maintenance in a can products and performance plugs and service items. The litigation would probably be a bit tedious but hey ho. 😂
@@UPnDOWN 1.8 VVC from an MGF, 143hp. Standard GTi exhaust, Freelander airbox. The car is a Rover Metro 1.1c 5 door from 1992 rolling on MGF 14inch spare wheels.
Can only really speak for the UK, but around 25 cars normally on the road, and 125 believed to survive, though that number could be optimistic as so many were butchered to make a 205 Mi16, and let's be honest, for every legit proper car builder there would have been a chav who left the donor BX on SORN 😶
A good effort. Can I bring a Saab down for a dyno to ensure our victory for years to come....
😆
Do it! With Gilroy
Get that E38 on there
wait... what... a collaboration I didnt know could exist... ??? or did I miss it? world mind blown
It's on Jon's channel, not this one.
This takes me back 30 years. I was working at Citroën Germany’s homologation department then, and the ZX 16V used an iteration of basically the same engine. It was homologated at 152 bhp. That was a bad thing, because there was a threshold in insurance cost at 150 hp, which was why all the competitors were below that threshold - some marketing genius had decided that the ZX have two more hp to claim some bragging rights. Trouble was, insurance doubled in price for that small matter.
What made it worse though was that the factory made specimens failed to reach even 150 - they even put out rather less. So the buyers (extremely few) weren’t happy. It’s fair to say they were rather mad, in fact, and had their lawyers writing unfriendly letters.
The TÜV (German technical expert organisation) that worked with us offered to help. It was possible, by means of a certificate of their making, to change the power rating in the car’s registration to 150, so that at least (financial) injury would be spared to whom was feeling the insult of driving a car that didn’t match the official power ratings.
A date was set for a ride on the TÜV’s rolling road, to establish the degree of limp of a standard ZX 16V, and I procured a press car. But in the meantime, the after sales department had found out why the rating wasn’t matched by production cars: the oil dipstick was too short. This resulted in having more oil in the engine, which meant that the crankshaft was happily splashing in the oil pan like a fat teenage boy in a swimming pool, resulting in a big waste of energy. The solution was a longer dipstick, and of course the press cars had immediately been so equipped. They carried one litre less dinosaur juice than before, and the crankshaft just kissed the surface of the oil instead of taking a deep dive.
You can almost imagine the rest: as I showed up for the power test, the measured output even exceeded the previous rating and was more in the 155 bhp neighbourhood. I overcame a slight embarrassment and suggested that the car was low on oil, and that I’d be back immediately. With a pint or so more of the stuff in its belly, the engine did indeed lose 10 hp, and the engineers said that they would make an average of both measures and were happy to provide the solution we had arranged beforehand.
Is that why the official power rating was reduced in all markets? I know '93 Xantia 16V's had 152 hp, but then the '94 and '95 models (including the Activa) only got 150 according to Citroën. I always thought it pertained to emissions.
@ I don’t remember the full detail, but it is very possible - Germany was difficult terrain for PSA mostly because they rarely took it into account when they defined the specifications, and then would have to make corrections.
On the other hand, emissions legislation evolved rapidly during this 1990s, and would often involve changes that also affected engine power. It’s possible that this was a combination of both: they changed the catalyst and the mapping of the ECU, and thus had to make a new homologation, so they decided that they wanted a value that suited one of the biggest markets a bit better.
There is a certain tolerance that is applied when authorities will check the conformity of production with the homologation papers, so they could have declared the lower value even if the output was in fact unchanged. On paper, it would look as if there was an emission-regulation cause to a marginal loss of power.
@@thomasalbrecht5914 I think they learned from the 16V though. The ES9 v6 that came out for the '97 model year had 194hp according to Citroën, which I think had to do with German regulations at the time as well? Many of its contemporaries shared the same power figure (eg the 328i, A4 2.8 5V, C230 Kompressor and the Passat VR6). On a dyno the ES9 at least tends to do 200+ hp
@@SterkeYerke5555, I was going to suggest the Volvo V70XC of that era could be in the same list ... then I googled and its 2.5 turbo charged 5 pot is listed as 193 ps, only 190 hp ... I miss-remembered the power output of the car I miss the most!
@ That is indeed correct, well spotted! It changed later, because the insurance system in Germany was modified and power output figures became immaterial. In fact, for comprehensive insurance, it had always been somewhat different. And this particular comprehensive insurance system had been even more alien to my French colleagues - until I had changed to the marketing department and given them a full description of it. At this stage, Jean-Martin Folz became CEO of PSA, and he was determined to put more emphasis onto the requirements of the German market, simply because it was the biggest, and its manufacturers were setting the pace. So French marketeers and engineers quickly became experts in things like the German insurance system.
Thank you for sharing this with the dirty heathen non-channel members (including me currently), Kitch.
I love BXs. One of my biggest car regrets was not buying one in 1996 (at auction) when I was seeking a new car with my dad. Went for a 405, which was a bit too boring.
Damn it sounds gooooood
And now I really really want a BX again. That exhaust note!!!. Back in the vet late '80s, I had the pleasure of bombing around in a nearly brand new BX14... something or other. I remember it being far more nippy than anything else I had driven with that sort of cubic capacity, ( although, on recollection, my Renault 18 1.4 GTL was pretty nippy). I also remember the absolutely fantastic seats and what was for the time, massive level of kit. It even had four electric windows and a tilt/slide sunroof. Whatever more could I have wanted?!
Happy New Year Kitch...looking forward to more content in 2025 👍
Many thanks for sharing to the unclean lol . Happy new year !!
Happy new year Kitch and family
Great video, lovely to see BAH knock that place-name-pronunciation-mangling bloke's Saab off the top ;-)
😆
A BAH video to finish off the year, like a cherry on top a great year of many exciting videos. Thank you for sharing and I wish you the most pleasant and fun new year's celebrations!
This car just puts a smile on my face!
Same here!
@@UPnDOWN Just gorgeous, an I'm an Alafnatic!
Happy New Year for you and your family! Feliz Ano Novo!
And you 👍🏻
Love to see what it would do after a full service. Great channel, thsnk you
Would love to see how the Tomato does.. though when you drove it you said it wasn't the fastest feeling 16V you'd driven..
PT goes alright IMO. Was definitely on the quicker end of the scale when I last drove it
In 1990 I worked for wadham stringer Granada road Southsea Portsmouth
They were Citroen nissan and rover main dealers at the time
Saw pleanty of those come in
I was in the crash repair shop as a panel beater
Congratulations - top of the leader board!
As an S-Max 2.5t owner, I'd like to see the big red Ford family bus at the top of the chart.
There's a cunning Film School dissolve at about 5:20 that had me thinking for a moment that your ghost or astral projections was getting out of BAH.
Here's wishing you a minimally fraught 2025 (I mean, you've got to be realistic.)
Thank you for doing that, would love to get my Passat TDi 130 on a dyno, just to see.
Had a black H reg and loved it. Fast and fun.
Auto shenanigans coming back down with the BMW or the skyline when he sorted it just to knock BAH off lol
He would, too.
@@UPnDOWN message you in the new year and we'll get that organised.
Happy new year mate!
Same to you 👍🏻
Our family car was a BX19 from 90-93. Can't remember exactly which model but always wanted a GTI when I saw one on the road.
One of the few front wheel drive cars that if the handbrake is even remotely dragging it makes a difference 😂 regardless of figures that engine is sounds absolutely on song coming up, and sorry to say as a ford guy in the 90s I had the front callipers off every single one of them that came in my local scrapyard for erm……. Reasons…. 😅
And to think a few months ago you were all set to sell the “rollers” on, I’m so glad you saw sense 😜
ever need some work on that BX suspension... you may well have the gear yourself.. but I know a legend that has worked on those BX's since they were new!
Used to own one back in the 90s such a comfortable car, i put 50k on mine never missed a beat. 👍
Aww I liked knowing what that little bit of tape meant when the non patreon/channel members didn’t.
6:50: it says STIHL on the cam cover the people that made chainsaws wonder what the story is behind it is
Magnesium alloy. I think STIHL were involved in it as they had experience with using it in their engines.
🤩🤩 Thank you for sharing it , it's a good present for the end of the year . For a moment I was thinking that you have a 🙀alyser one ... maybe new multipole sparks and Mobil One will do wonders ... I'm wondering if it's possible to put some iridium spark plugs , or no benefit ... I have to see if it's possible for my BX GTi 1.6 115Hp ;3
Nah, it's a proper one thankfully! D6C all the way!
Iridium plugs unlikely to make a big difference, but newer plugs might if it's not burning cleanly
@@UPnDOWN Not a big difference but they wear less because iridium is a harder metal. It also has excellent conductivity so there is a hotter spark.
From my experience on 16V and 20V Volvo's they run great on them.
Equivalent heatrange, same gaps of course.
Top engine for a 205 GTI back in the day
A great video. However, I do hope this doesn't mean the SM Sunday vid is completely lost. If so, great sympathy.
It should be recoverable, but time consuming to do.
Will you be having a ‘Cars of the Dyno’ display at Rustival 3
Haha!
Does it say by STIHL on the rocker cover?
Yes, "Magnesium by STIHL"
In review autopista 164,7 cv new in 1988.
Today a eton is perfect for him.
How is Professor Tomato going?
Will it beat hubnut
I should bloody hope so 😆
Why do older cars sound so much better than modern stuff? I bet that barometric pressure and even humidity will make a difference to the recorded figures.
Wow! When I think about the potential material that the dyno could produce. Testing all the maintenance in a can products and performance plugs and service items. The litigation would probably be a bit tedious but hey ho. 😂
How long will it be before you dyno the SM? Sorry for letting the cat out the bag. About that you own a SM.
It will go on one day, though as a shakedown/testing session rather than a power test
HILDA??? I thought she was long gone!
This was pre-Rustival 2
That was a few months back. Hilda's buried in the corner now
I wonder how much power could be get out from this engine without adding a turbo. :)
Right you need to turbo it and get big power from tge engine
Mmmm, I think I prefer it as it is tbh!
No leave it as it is they are really rare now
Could be the spark plugs air filter causing the drop in power a service and back on the dyno and 155 bhp isn't bad your BX must be a very quick
Probably a combo of those and it not really being maintained for the past decade!
I'm still up for bringing my Metro down, if you like. 1.8vvc.
What sort of spec is it?
@@UPnDOWN 1.8 VVC from an MGF, 143hp. Standard GTi exhaust, Freelander airbox. The car is a Rover Metro 1.1c 5 door from 1992 rolling on MGF 14inch spare wheels.
@@UPnDOWN I can email you some pictures if you like?
I want one
Might as well be a new car.. Sadly no new cars come close being as cool..
I want a hot Bxin ly life
Thank you for sharing with us as well
Talking of Tomatoes, how's that getting along ?
Slowly but surely
That’s perilously close to SM power….
It is. In the real world a BX 16v would murder an SM, I suspect.
@ I wonder if anyone has put a BiTurbo in an SM to cement both its superiority in power and unreliability mmm….
Just how many 16v still exist? Back in the 90's these held major bragging rights in the pub horsepower chat. Can't be many survivors now.
Can only really speak for the UK, but around 25 cars normally on the road, and 125 believed to survive, though that number could be optimistic as so many were butchered to make a 205 Mi16, and let's be honest, for every legit proper car builder there would have been a chav who left the donor BX on SORN 😶
I could have brought my 99 Jag XJR to blow everything out the water, if it hadn't been stolen a couple of months ago..
I'm surrounded by more powerful cars here, I just prefer the lower power ones.
@@UPnDOWN I have an 87 Panda 750 in my fleet, with 34 vocal horses, + various other small retro Fiats.
Nice! That's welcome on the rollers anytime!
😢 Nothing is real. All spin ... Literally.
Erm...