I totally agree and understand everything you convey in this video. I only make leatherwork, woodwork, and other handy deeds for friends and family at no charge to them because of the slap in the face received for over 50 years of trying to make money with a service that is highly skilled. For instance, December 12th, 2023, a local relator saw a purse I made for my granddaughter and was awed. She made me an offer for the first order of 5 just like the one I made at the offering of $15.00 each. Not sure how she came up with an off the cuff offer like that and demand they are finished by Dec. 22nd. These were going to be little presents for special customers. First off, I'm retired and do this as a hobby and keepsake for people that appreciate my work. Because the purse was just completed, I had the cost on top of my head being $26.00 with hardware, leather, and finish products, no craft time included. This purse was just over 10 hours work being hand sewn and the process I use for leather conditioning. I did ask how she came up with this crazy offer her reply was, you are retired so what else would you be doing with your time. I asked the lady how much she made last year along with her husband and that being $430k. I told her as a favor since it was a rush offer that I would not charge extra, but the cost would be $390.00 each. She gasped deeply and told me that was not a Louis Vuitton so why was I asking so much. I had to reply that it would most likely make no sense to her so no I will not make them at any price for you. People value us as handy people with simple minds.
I always undervalue my work, as I see the flaws in every hand cut, hand sewn holster, portfolio, wallet, etcetera. That said, four commissioned custom (from dyes and contrasts to thread, stamped or plain) holsters grossed at $450... minus four Blueguns at $55+_ each, leather, thread color, two custom stamps and shipping (coast-to-coast)... I actually didn't "hose" myself. Each person was thrilled with the end product (not me, LOL) and said that the imperfections gave their holster character. It takes me longer, as I have significant arthritis and "trigger finger" in both hands, but enjoy the work nonetheless. The pain, however, makes me "want" to charge more, but I know I can't. 🙃 Thanks for your direction and advice!
The tools, the countless hours of experimentation to learn how to create a beautiful finished product, taxes, some semblance of benefits for yourself, replacing or maintaining tools & workspaces, courses, books, videos, remakes, it all adds up. Craftsman level work is different than a cheaply made generic item from overseas. Most Craftsman also guarantee their work unlike cheap items that aren't meant to last a lifetime.
As a leather worker and craftsman I loved everything that was said, but I'm really distracted by the tapping 😅. Yes I carve for hours on end without being annoyed but it's loud while I take in and think about what is being said. 😁
I'm looking at getting my first of tools and extras to gear up into making things 😊 I think my price list is now in the $300 mark and while that is a one time cost, the consumables need to kept. I would be looking to get my investment back in 12 months by selling items, I'm not a Craftsmen/ Craftsperson and I don't intend to do this as a profession, my turn around will be long and done on the weekends, if I do sell something. Making something on my own (as far as it can be) that's the value.
Great topic! Unfortunately this seems to be a very misunderstood subject in our industry. Thankfully with content like you have provided, and also Bob Brenner’s class and his book “How to establish prices for the saddle maker or leather worker” It helps to shed light on where the numbers should actually be.
My mechanic charges $110 an hour plus parts. When I make him goods I return the favor. I've learned how to work on my trucks more and he still knows nothing about leather crafting
Remember that if your vehicle breaks down it has more impact on your life than of his toolholder broke 😊 One is annoying, one is life changing. By all means charge the $110 / hour Does his rate include labour and parts?
Well said. 👏 😊 a Leather Designer made Baby's first belt, or a piece of string, both hold your trousers up. No comparison, so that's why you SHOULD pay for quality and expertise.
IMO the best tool an individual can use on pricing their custom work (regardless which craft they work in) is a detailed business model. Many of the questions I see whether from this channel or friends wanting to go into business as a barber, bar owner, or taxidermy are questions that must be researched and answered to compile a business model. Doing so will also guide you to make products that you are capable of making and not compete with the mail order discount franchises. Thanks for a great series on this topic.
thank you for your knowledge and patience in explain the craft and business . im wanting to get into the leather making craft not for business but just to be able to make my grand kids some belts and spurs. what kind of leather is best for making quality belts. I know nothing about the leather differences so any advice would help me out . thanks again for you time and videos you put out.
You need full grain, tooling leather. Sometimes called saddle leather depending on the seller. Hermann Oak is probably the best quality for tooling leather. If you don't want to have to bother with cutting out shapes you can buy belt blanks, spur strap blanks etc that are already cut out and ready to tool. Welcome to the craft.
I also use Herman Oak. To me, it's a more dense, heavier duty leather than Wickett & Craig and holds up better under the heat of summer in the South. You can save money by cutting your own compared to buying precut straps if you would do enough to use that much leather. I also made plenty of mistakes getting used to using a strap cutter. Most of my work is done for friends and family right now, but I hope to expand it a little bit in a few years. Best of luck in your leather craft journey.
True, but you have to QUALIFY all that you just said Joe, with the maker having the skills and the KNOWLEDGE to produce products worth those prices. Just because you have a shop/booth/website/whatever, does not mean your goods are worth a "premium" price. Your advice is good, but there are plenty of people who's skills do not match the asking price. That's not to dump on everyone, but there are a share of makers who think their stuff is much nicer than it is in reality. Not everyone who makes stuff or wants to make stuff, is actually going to be that excellent at it. Just because someone knows how to bevel, doesn't mean they are really good at it. Just because someone can make a wallet out of a fine piece of leather, doesn't mean it's a top quality wallet. It's not just convincing a customer that you built the value in the product, there has to be actual value in that product. I've seen lots of stuff from people who think they made a nice "whatever", but it doesn't really look that nice. And I say all this as a guy who admits openly I am not going to be entering any leather competitions any time soon. I know for a fact, I am not going to be tooling any 500 dollar belts anytime soon. Not everyone is producing products with that kind of value.
@@cws4657 It's not even about someone being new. Not everyone is going to be capable of making those "premium" items. Lots of people play guitar or play baseball. Doesn't mean every one of them are stars. Get it? You can be "ok" or "pretty good" at making leather goods. Doesn't mean the stuff you are making are works of art or "premium" sought after pieces. Most crafters with decent skills can make 50-150 dollar belts. But few can command the 500 dollar belt prices. Where the "pretty good" crafter can increase profit margins are with investments in machines, like a good sewing machine, to cut down labor hours. Not just upping prices because they think they are worth it, or because they are accounting for costs. The "unicorn" pricing stuff is not common, and most people will not pay huge amounts of money over what store retail on a product may be. My whole point was and is, that the crafter has to be realistic to what their true skills are, the real value of the products they produce, and be mindful of who their buying audience really is. When people like Joe start talking about being right with pricing, many times people misread that to mean they should just be charging more.
@@jamesw.3491another thing to keep in mind is the target buyers. You may have the skills to sell premium things, but if there is nobody around with deep pockets then that doesn't help you out either. Ive gone to a few markets this year and the people who buy from me are the ones who appreciate the value and appreciate that my price is on the lower end but still good quality. Not everyone has the money for a $300 purse. But they might have $100 or $80. So, yeah, sure I may be undercharged but at the same time I'm also helping someone out in my community who has a right budget.
What about the demographics of your area? I'm thinking I can't charge what I want thinking the area is not going to pay that much. I'm not selling much anyways
A new pickup is the same price wherever you go. I struggle with this as well. I have decided to price where I make money and if someone does not want it, there will be someone else who does. If you watch Don Gonzeles pod cast pricing is part of every interview. Tons of great information is there with long time crafters.
I have had that problem in my area as well. I don't charge near what Don Gonzales or Joe either one do, but I'm no where close to their skilled level either. When someone tells me they can buy a belt cheaper at a store, I agree, but even the leather itself is nowhere near the quality of a plain Herman Oak.
@@johntuck8927 If buyers really cared about QUALITY, there would be little made in China stuff for sale. The vast majority of buyers care about PRICE first. As a crafter you are searching for the ones who want a quality product and it's YOUR job to explain to them why your products are superior to cheaper items. Most all store belts are man made and "genuine" leather junk (aka cheap price).
If you’re doing this as a full time business you need to also consider taxes as a business and your health care to include other things. Some margins could be higher on items which sell fast and easy to produce. You may not want everything on the extreme margin so you can’t make ends meet….
The biggest thing to keep in mind is you can make money by charging what people will pay but charge more and you will be out of business. I would ALWAYS look at what others doing similar work are charging in my area and how long they have been in business.
Good info for what I was able to absorb between tapping. Just a bit of advice. When you wanna make a video like this, don't do your leather tooling. Talk TO your audience.
The problem is that people CAN'T AFFORD WELL MADE OR HIGH-QUALITY THINGS. You can sell a $5 keychain made by the absolute best leathercrafter in the world and a similar $1 one made by a 5th grader at summer camp and for every one of the $5 ones you sell you will sell a thousand of the $1 ones. The only times someone is going to pay for top quality products are when they are rich or it is something they have looked forward to owning all their life and they are finally going to make that investment. People want quality but at a cheap price, they don't want value, because they CANT AFFORD IT. That is why everything is from China now.
I want to interject this thought, I don't want to pay a high price for items that I don't know the real value. Let me explain, Everything I buy these days comes from a third party shipping that is terrible customer service and the goods are most likely made in China even the high quality goods are made in China or Pakistan or India or whatever. At least when I make it myself I have the sole responsibility of putting it together. It's not that I don't want to buy cheap it's the fact that I don't know the value of the item. For instance I just picked up a nice leather belt, it says it's leather belt and the buckle is very nice. I like the buckle design, I'm happy with the buckle design but the belt itself is it a genuine leather? how am I to know because put a stick or tag on it? I guess this is turned more into a rant than anything but I'm just trying to say that it's not just about the price tag, It's true you get for what you pay forHowever they are very expensive items out there that I complete junk. Rant over 😂
I totally agree and understand everything you convey in this video. I only make leatherwork, woodwork, and other handy deeds for friends and family at no charge to them because of the slap in the face received for over 50 years of trying to make money with a service that is highly skilled. For instance, December 12th, 2023, a local relator saw a purse I made for my granddaughter and was awed. She made me an offer for the first order of 5 just like the one I made at the offering of $15.00 each. Not sure how she came up with an off the cuff offer like that and demand they are finished by Dec. 22nd. These were going to be little presents for special customers. First off, I'm retired and do this as a hobby and keepsake for people that appreciate my work. Because the purse was just completed, I had the cost on top of my head being $26.00 with hardware, leather, and finish products, no craft time included. This purse was just over 10 hours work being hand sewn and the process I use for leather conditioning. I did ask how she came up with this crazy offer her reply was, you are retired so what else would you be doing with your time. I asked the lady how much she made last year along with her husband and that being $430k. I told her as a favor since it was a rush offer that I would not charge extra, but the cost would be $390.00 each. She gasped deeply and told me that was not a Louis Vuitton so why was I asking so much. I had to reply that it would most likely make no sense to her so no I will not make them at any price for you. People value us as handy people with simple minds.
Never let anyone put a price to your work. Just don’t work with people like that; she sounds like a jerk and someone who doesn’t understand quality.
I hope that was $390 each 🤣
I always undervalue my work, as I see the flaws in every hand cut, hand sewn holster, portfolio, wallet, etcetera. That said, four commissioned custom (from dyes and contrasts to thread, stamped or plain) holsters grossed at $450... minus four Blueguns at $55+_ each, leather, thread color, two custom stamps and shipping (coast-to-coast)... I actually didn't "hose" myself. Each person was thrilled with the end product (not me, LOL) and said that the imperfections gave their holster character. It takes me longer, as I have significant arthritis and "trigger finger" in both hands, but enjoy the work nonetheless. The pain, however, makes me "want" to charge more, but I know I can't. 🙃 Thanks for your direction and advice!
The tools, the countless hours of experimentation to learn how to create a beautiful finished product, taxes, some semblance of benefits for yourself, replacing or maintaining tools & workspaces, courses, books, videos, remakes, it all adds up. Craftsman level work is different than a cheaply made generic item from overseas. Most Craftsman also guarantee their work unlike cheap items that aren't meant to last a lifetime.
As a leather worker and craftsman I loved everything that was said, but I'm really distracted by the tapping 😅.
Yes I carve for hours on end without being annoyed but it's loud while I take in and think about what is being said. 😁
I'm looking at getting my first of tools and extras to gear up into making things 😊 I think my price list is now in the $300 mark and while that is a one time cost, the consumables need to kept.
I would be looking to get my investment back in 12 months by selling items, I'm not a Craftsmen/ Craftsperson and I don't intend to do this as a profession, my turn around will be long and done on the weekends, if I do sell something.
Making something on my own (as far as it can be) that's the value.
Great topic!
Unfortunately this seems to be a very misunderstood subject in our industry.
Thankfully with content like you have provided, and also Bob Brenner’s class and his book “How to establish prices for the saddle maker or leather worker”
It helps to shed light on where the numbers should actually be.
My mechanic charges $110 an hour plus parts. When I make him goods I return the favor. I've learned how to work on my trucks more and he still knows nothing about leather crafting
Great way to think about it
Remember that if your vehicle breaks down it has more impact on your life than of his toolholder broke 😊
One is annoying, one is life changing.
By all means charge the $110 / hour
Does his rate include labour and parts?
Well said. 👏 😊 a Leather Designer made Baby's first belt, or a piece of string, both hold your trousers up. No comparison, so that's why you SHOULD pay for quality and expertise.
IMO the best tool an individual can use on pricing their custom work (regardless which craft they work in) is a detailed business model. Many of the questions I see whether from this channel or friends wanting to go into business as a barber, bar owner, or taxidermy are questions that must be researched and answered to compile a business model. Doing so will also guide you to make products that you are capable of making and not compete with the mail order discount franchises. Thanks for a great series on this topic.
thank you for your knowledge and patience in explain the craft and business . im wanting to get into the leather making craft not for business but just to be able to make my grand kids some belts and spurs. what kind of leather is best for making quality belts. I know nothing about the leather differences so any advice would help me out . thanks again for you time and videos you put out.
Herman Oak is what I use.
You need full grain, tooling leather. Sometimes called saddle leather depending on the seller. Hermann Oak is probably the best quality for tooling leather. If you don't want to have to bother with cutting out shapes you can buy belt blanks, spur strap blanks etc that are already cut out and ready to tool. Welcome to the craft.
I also use Herman Oak. To me, it's a more dense, heavier duty leather than Wickett & Craig and holds up better under the heat of summer in the South. You can save money by cutting your own compared to buying precut straps if you would do enough to use that much leather. I also made plenty of mistakes getting used to using a strap cutter. Most of my work is done for friends and family right now, but I hope to expand it a little bit in a few years. Best of luck in your leather craft journey.
@@johntuck8927Strap Cutters!!😤 Can be so annoying.
Glad to know I’m not the only one.
True, but you have to QUALIFY all that you just said Joe, with the maker having the skills and the KNOWLEDGE to produce products worth those prices. Just because you have a shop/booth/website/whatever, does not mean your goods are worth a "premium" price. Your advice is good, but there are plenty of people who's skills do not match the asking price. That's not to dump on everyone, but there are a share of makers who think their stuff is much nicer than it is in reality.
Not everyone who makes stuff or wants to make stuff, is actually going to be that excellent at it. Just because someone knows how to bevel, doesn't mean they are really good at it. Just because someone can make a wallet out of a fine piece of leather, doesn't mean it's a top quality wallet. It's not just convincing a customer that you built the value in the product, there has to be actual value in that product. I've seen lots of stuff from people who think they made a nice "whatever", but it doesn't really look that nice. And I say all this as a guy who admits openly I am not going to be entering any leather competitions any time soon. I know for a fact, I am not going to be tooling any 500 dollar belts anytime soon. Not everyone is producing products with that kind of value.
If the person is new and prices to high they won’t get business. It then becomes a hobby.
@@cws4657 It's not even about someone being new. Not everyone is going to be capable of making those "premium" items. Lots of people play guitar or play baseball. Doesn't mean every one of them are stars. Get it? You can be "ok" or "pretty good" at making leather goods. Doesn't mean the stuff you are making are works of art or "premium" sought after pieces. Most crafters with decent skills can make 50-150 dollar belts. But few can command the 500 dollar belt prices. Where the "pretty good" crafter can increase profit margins are with investments in machines, like a good sewing machine, to cut down labor hours. Not just upping prices because they think they are worth it, or because they are accounting for costs. The "unicorn" pricing stuff is not common, and most people will not pay huge amounts of money over what store retail on a product may be.
My whole point was and is, that the crafter has to be realistic to what their true skills are, the real value of the products they produce, and be mindful of who their buying audience really is. When people like Joe start talking about being right with pricing, many times people misread that to mean they should just be charging more.
@@jamesw.3491 I believe we are making the same point I just made it in less words.
@@jamesw.3491another thing to keep in mind is the target buyers. You may have the skills to sell premium things, but if there is nobody around with deep pockets then that doesn't help you out either. Ive gone to a few markets this year and the people who buy from me are the ones who appreciate the value and appreciate that my price is on the lower end but still good quality. Not everyone has the money for a $300 purse. But they might have $100 or $80. So, yeah, sure I may be undercharged but at the same time I'm also helping someone out in my community who has a right budget.
It’s a labor of love. Thats hard to put a price on that.
Yes!!! Great advice!!!
Thank you for addressing this. I needs yelled louder from the back of the room.
What about the demographics of your area? I'm thinking I can't charge what I want thinking the area is not going to pay that much.
I'm not selling much anyways
A new pickup is the same price wherever you go. I struggle with this as well. I have decided to price where I make money and if someone does not want it, there will be someone else who does. If you watch Don Gonzeles pod cast pricing is part of every interview. Tons of great information is there with long time crafters.
I have had that problem in my area as well. I don't charge near what Don Gonzales or Joe either one do, but I'm no where close to their skilled level either. When someone tells me they can buy a belt cheaper at a store, I agree, but even the leather itself is nowhere near the quality of a plain Herman Oak.
@@johntuck8927 If buyers really cared about QUALITY, there would be little made in China stuff for sale. The vast majority of buyers care about PRICE first. As a crafter you are searching for the ones who want a quality product and it's YOUR job to explain to them why your products are superior to cheaper items. Most all store belts are man made and "genuine" leather junk (aka cheap price).
If you’re doing this as a full time business you need to also consider taxes as a business and your health care to include other things. Some margins could be higher on items which sell fast and easy to produce. You may not want everything on the extreme margin so you can’t make ends meet….
The biggest thing to keep in mind is you can make money by charging what people will pay but charge more and you will be out of business. I would ALWAYS look at what others doing similar work are charging in my area and how long they have been in business.
Good info for what I was able to absorb between tapping. Just a bit of advice. When you wanna make a video like this, don't do your leather tooling. Talk TO your audience.
A directional mic would be great for videos like this, the tapping is really annoying trying to listen 🤷
The problem is that people CAN'T AFFORD WELL MADE OR HIGH-QUALITY THINGS. You can sell a $5 keychain made by the absolute best leathercrafter in the world and a similar $1 one made by a 5th grader at summer camp and for every one of the $5 ones you sell you will sell a thousand of the $1 ones. The only times someone is going to pay for top quality products are when they are rich or it is something they have looked forward to owning all their life and they are finally going to make that investment. People want quality but at a cheap price, they don't want value, because they CANT AFFORD IT. That is why everything is from China now.
I want to interject this thought, I don't want to pay a high price for items that I don't know the real value.
Let me explain, Everything I buy these days comes from a third party shipping that is terrible customer service and the goods are most likely made in China even the high quality goods are made in China or Pakistan or India or whatever.
At least when I make it myself I have the sole responsibility of putting it together.
It's not that I don't want to buy cheap it's the fact that I don't know the value of the item.
For instance I just picked up a nice leather belt, it says it's leather belt and the buckle is very nice. I like the buckle design, I'm happy with the buckle design but the belt itself is it a genuine leather? how am I to know because put a stick or tag on it?
I guess this is turned more into a rant than anything but I'm just trying to say that it's not just about the price tag, It's true you get for what you pay forHowever they are very expensive items out there that I complete junk.
Rant over 😂