Played this game a couple of days ago. This is weird but I think that Tom is spot on with everything he says here and I totally agree with him... and yet I still think I might love this game. Everything in it is fairly simple and graspable but there's just so much of it. It's broad rather than deep. There are opportunities everywhere and quite often these opportunities add up to a nice little combo. It just felt luxurious to play.
I think dice tower needs someone that really enjoy euros, sam and zee didnt even try gwt and food chain and many others top rated games... for me I saw the lack just by seeing the top 100 games of this year
NO! This was a great review, and I'm glad they give honest reviews at the Dice Tower and don't kowtow to every designer! I love euros, and this was a bloated mess. We need to see more streamlined euros for regular gamers.
Demoed this at Spiel and it was the game of the con for me - based on initial impressions of all the games I demoed there, of course! I can definitely understand the view that it's overwrought, there is a great deal going on. But for me 'overwrought' speaks of games where the rules impede your enjoyment of the game, whether that's because there's simply too much to retain, too many caveats / 'gotchas' on doing what you want to do, or just left you wishing it were simpler for whatever reason. For my money Agra did not do any of these things. The 'Tom doesn't like heavy games' is a bit of a dead horse; though I think heavy games have to 'work harder' in a sense to win Tom over, I still think these reviews are a useful yardstick. I can see this being a 'try before you buy' even for heavy gamers. The 'work to payoff ratio' is clearly a very personal thing, since I felt Mage Knight was too much effort for the payoff and Agra was fine, whereas Tom felt the opposite!
Nice to see DT's Agra review - dissapointed at the review but not surprised :) However, I feel that the moving pieces doesn't seem to be a big deal because even though it feels overwhelming when playing it did not feel that way. The imperial board is fiddly, but not a game spoiler (though gorgeous and bold design choice). Rules defiently need an erratta and FAQ. Really enjoying the game.
NB. At 12:05 Tom talks about rolling the dice during the game and sometimes the next delivery wasn't one that he was planning for, and disliking the luck element. I think he may have played that part wrong since the guild orders are filled in a set sequence, not in a random order. The dice aren't involved at all. That's not to invalidate his other thoughts on the complexity/overwroughtness of the game, but it may have contributed to his dissatisfaction.
To be honest, even a big Euro gamer like myself hesitated on this one. It takes a good 3 plays to get all the interlocking ideas and every game has felt incredibly different. The little sticky rules come easily by the 3rd game - I know it's asking a lot but the payout for learning this game is enormous - it has shot into my top 10 easily. The 2 player variant using a neutral pawn to roam the board to knock you off is very very good. I've only played 2 and 3 players but it scales well as far as I can see. The iconography takes a bit of getting used to but again after a couple of plays (6 hours!) it becomes second nature. As for the art and design - maybe the processing arrows could have been bolder but honestly the game thrives on the concept of life having many choices and none of them easy - like I said to the designer in praise "Life is not a grid" - and of course you can always just go by the background colors. I feel like I can play the game by using the BACK of the board by now without too much of a problem!!! On BgG I gave it a 10 but that's only because it didn't go to 11! ******************
I had a similar reaction to Tom's co-players. I like heavy euro games - A Feast for Odin was my favourite last years game. The thing with Agra is that it is "complicated" but repetitive. You work yourself down a list of orders one after another and don't get much in return. In Feast you get an awsome longhouse or a whole new island just for yourself. All you get in Agra is VPs*. That's kind of a let-down. Just getting VPs would be fine if you could play the game in an hour or 90 minutes top (like Marco Polo for instance) but with 3 hours game time it gets old before half of the game is over. *Yes, you can get a card with a special effect. But that effect is typically pretty underwhelming - like you get 6 VPs instead of 5 for delivering a bowl of soup. Horray.
I played a demo of this at GenCon.i liked the game fine, but wasn't a big fan. Plus, I completely agree about that sideboard. I was close to hating it. It got bumped a couple of times, and it was really difficult for some players to see. It had some cool stuff going on, and I would play it potentially, but I couldn't ever see myself buying it. Sadly, it was one of only two games at GenCon that I was even interested in checking out.
i played the game before watching this review, and i got the same feeling as Tom. Agree 100% on his comments, and i am a heavy euro gamer , reviewing hundreds of game regularly. Good job again, Tom.
I agree with you - although I must admit I haven't played the game. But from the rules and other playthrough videos, I looks like it's heavy for heaviness' sake. I enjoy heavier games ( Vital Lacerda's designs among others ), but this is needlessly complicated.
Funny, that's how I feel about Lisboa :) After about five games of Agra I can safely say that I love the game and disagree with the review. But this is completely fine, I would honestly have been surprised if such a heavy game would have been loved by Tom. Might be interesting to hear Jason and Ryans view on this one though.
Tom doesn't like heavy games. Anything that does not have a straight line from action to reward he does not like. Splotters, 18XX, most Alban Viard and Vital Lacerda games, and most games heavier than a 3/5 on bgg he does not simply like.
I will probably still give this game a try, if I can somewhere. But I think, Tom made some points, which seemed cogent to me. Although I in general like heavy euros, this one might very well be not for me, too. I hate it, when games want to win people with "gorgeous looking" components at the cost of fiddly game play and confusing presentation. And this game seems like a prime example for this. Looks more like an "eye burner" then a "brain burner" to me.
It only does not work out if you hit it, which you should not do with any component ever anyway ;) Imho normal handling (like without shaky hands) does the trick quite well. And with 3 or 4 players you have a nice overview from across the table, even on a "not so great" seat. Tl;dr: the component works fine and is not just a mere attention grabber.
Tom wasn't hitting it too hard. The way, he demonstrated it looked like, somebody wanting to go to the bath room, shifting the table a little bit, might mess everything up. Of course, you are not "supposed" to move the table, while playing a board game, but it might very well happen anyway. They should have come with less top-heavy components, or used a solution with pegs, anyway.
What I mean is that I don’t consider this game worse that coaster park, so if that game gets a seal of excellence this one deserves one even more ( by those standards, even if I personally don’t consider any of those games good enough to recommend)
This review is a train wreck. It sure would be nice if I could watch reviews on your channel from people who actually understand heavy games who I don't have to turn off due to cringe overload. I appreciate the immense amount of work Jason does for the dice tower, but he should never be in front of a camera.
I think it's great to show inclusion to Jason with having him in front of the camera. DT is elevating themselves by becoming more and more professional. Providing a quality product. But there are many people that like and relate to Jason's character. He's enthusiastic and sincere.
Played this game a couple of days ago. This is weird but I think that Tom is spot on with everything he says here and I totally agree with him... and yet I still think I might love this game. Everything in it is fairly simple and graspable but there's just so much of it. It's broad rather than deep. There are opportunities everywhere and quite often these opportunities add up to a nice little combo. It just felt luxurious to play.
I must try this game for myself.
I think dice tower needs someone that really enjoy euros, sam and zee didnt even try gwt and food chain and many others top rated games... for me I saw the lack just by seeing the top 100 games of this year
Ryan Metzler?
I think they had a good amount of euro representation on their lists. Regardless if you think they'e lacking or not. It's their opinion.
I don’t think they HAVE to. It’s their channel and there are many TH-cam reviewers out there now. It’s not like these guys owe us anything.
I didnt say anything about they HAVE to, this is just my opinion...
NO! This was a great review, and I'm glad they give honest reviews at the Dice Tower and don't kowtow to every designer! I love euros, and this was a bloated mess. We need to see more streamlined euros for regular gamers.
Bought a copy at EssenSpiel, no regrets. Love heavy games.
Demoed this at Spiel and it was the game of the con for me - based on initial impressions of all the games I demoed there, of course! I can definitely understand the view that it's overwrought, there is a great deal going on. But for me 'overwrought' speaks of games where the rules impede your enjoyment of the game, whether that's because there's simply too much to retain, too many caveats / 'gotchas' on doing what you want to do, or just left you wishing it were simpler for whatever reason. For my money Agra did not do any of these things.
The 'Tom doesn't like heavy games' is a bit of a dead horse; though I think heavy games have to 'work harder' in a sense to win Tom over, I still think these reviews are a useful yardstick. I can see this being a 'try before you buy' even for heavy gamers. The 'work to payoff ratio' is clearly a very personal thing, since I felt Mage Knight was too much effort for the payoff and Agra was fine, whereas Tom felt the opposite!
Keep up the great reviews Tom 💪🏽
This game goes like the german fisherman's friend ad imho: "If it's too heavy, you are too weak!"
Look's amazing.
Wow, you brought out the big Mallet on that one that was so cool
Whatever Tom reviews.. he destroys
Nice to see DT's Agra review - dissapointed at the review but not surprised :)
However, I feel that the moving pieces doesn't seem to be a big deal because even though it feels overwhelming when playing it did not feel that way.
The imperial board is fiddly, but not a game spoiler (though gorgeous and bold design choice). Rules defiently need an erratta and FAQ.
Really enjoying the game.
NB. At 12:05 Tom talks about rolling the dice during the game and sometimes the next delivery wasn't one that he was planning for, and disliking the luck element. I think he may have played that part wrong since the guild orders are filled in a set sequence, not in a random order. The dice aren't involved at all.
That's not to invalidate his other thoughts on the complexity/overwroughtness of the game, but it may have contributed to his dissatisfaction.
To be honest, even a big Euro gamer like myself hesitated on this one. It takes a good 3 plays to get all the interlocking ideas and every game has felt incredibly different. The little sticky rules come easily by the 3rd game - I know it's asking a lot but the payout for learning this game is enormous - it has shot into my top 10 easily. The 2 player variant using a neutral pawn to roam the board to knock you off is very very good. I've only played 2 and 3 players but it scales well as far as I can see. The iconography takes a bit of getting used to but again after a couple of plays (6 hours!) it becomes second nature. As for the art and design - maybe the processing arrows could have been bolder but honestly the game thrives on the concept of life having many choices and none of them easy - like I said to the designer in praise "Life is not a grid" - and of course you can always just go by the background colors. I feel like I can play the game by using the BACK of the board by now without too much of a problem!!! On BgG I gave it a 10 but that's only because it didn't go to 11! ******************
Great review Tom, I'm a heavy eurogamer and I get what you are saying about the payoff - it has to be worth it.
I had a similar reaction to Tom's co-players. I like heavy euro games - A Feast for Odin was my favourite last years game. The thing with Agra is that it is "complicated" but repetitive. You work yourself down a list of orders one after another and don't get much in return. In Feast you get an awsome longhouse or a whole new island just for yourself. All you get in Agra is VPs*. That's kind of a let-down. Just getting VPs would be fine if you could play the game in an hour or 90 minutes top (like Marco Polo for instance) but with 3 hours game time it gets old before half of the game is over.
*Yes, you can get a card with a special effect. But that effect is typically pretty underwhelming - like you get 6 VPs instead of 5 for delivering a bowl of soup. Horray.
agra
I played a demo of this at GenCon.i liked the game fine, but wasn't a big fan. Plus, I completely agree about that sideboard. I was close to hating it. It got bumped a couple of times, and it was really difficult for some players to see.
It had some cool stuff going on, and I would play it potentially, but I couldn't ever see myself buying it. Sadly, it was one of only two games at GenCon that I was even interested in checking out.
i played the game before watching this review, and i got the same feeling as Tom. Agree 100% on his comments, and i am a heavy euro gamer , reviewing hundreds of game regularly. Good job again, Tom.
Appreciate the review but I must disagree on this one, Agra is such a fantastic, strategic game. Highly recommend!
Wow, the fallover board even beats the "Terraforming Mars" one! Ridiculous.
I agree with you - although I must admit I haven't played the game. But from the rules and other playthrough videos, I looks like it's heavy for heaviness' sake. I enjoy heavier games ( Vital Lacerda's designs among others ), but this is needlessly complicated.
Funny, that's how I feel about Lisboa :) After about five games of Agra I can safely say that I love the game and disagree with the review. But this is completely fine, I would honestly have been surprised if such a heavy game would have been loved by Tom. Might be interesting to hear Jason and Ryans view on this one though.
Yeah, I'm not keen on Lisboa either, but I do enjoy Vinhos and The Gallerist by Vital.
I really would like to learn this game to know but I keep falling asleep about half way of the review...
Watching the component drop for this game like.... 😮
Tom doesn't like heavy games. Anything that does not have a straight line from action to reward he does not like. Splotters, 18XX, most Alban Viard and Vital Lacerda games, and most games heavier than a 3/5 on bgg he does not simply like.
I will probably still give this game a try, if I can somewhere. But I think, Tom made some points, which seemed cogent to me. Although I in general like heavy euros, this one might very well be not for me, too. I hate it, when games want to win people with "gorgeous looking" components at the cost of fiddly game play and confusing presentation. And this game seems like a prime example for this. Looks more like an "eye burner" then a "brain burner" to me.
This game looks like they took 2 separate games and just kind of mashed them into one.
This game looks all over the map.
Too bad that bar chart component didn’t work out. That was neat looking.
It only does not work out if you hit it, which you should not do with any component ever anyway ;) Imho normal handling (like without shaky hands) does the trick quite well. And with 3 or 4 players you have a nice overview from across the table, even on a "not so great" seat. Tl;dr: the component works fine and is not just a mere attention grabber.
Tom wasn't hitting it too hard. The way, he demonstrated it looked like, somebody wanting to go to the bath room, shifting the table a little bit, might mess everything up. Of course, you are not "supposed" to move the table, while playing a board game, but it might very well happen anyway. They should have come with less top-heavy components, or used a solution with pegs, anyway.
I can't understand why this game didn't get a seal of excellence and Coaster Park did...
#Metoo
I heard him give many reasons.
What I mean is that I don’t consider this game worse that coaster park, so if that game gets a seal of excellence this one deserves one even more ( by those standards, even if I personally don’t consider any of those games good enough to recommend)
@Stefan, Spoke my mind.
The Coaster Park is a clear low point for Tom. A broken game gets seal of excellence apparently purely because Tom likes the theme of roller coasters.
Awesome review , I have no better words for that, oh man it disappoints me so that this game isn't the beauty which I thought it could be.
This looks way too convoluted and complex to be fun. And way too easy to knock stuff over.
This review is a train wreck.
It sure would be nice if I could watch reviews on your channel from people who actually understand heavy games who I don't have to turn off due to cringe overload. I appreciate the immense amount of work Jason does for the dice tower, but he should never be in front of a camera.
I think it's great to show inclusion to Jason with having him in front of the camera. DT is elevating themselves by becoming more and more professional. Providing a quality product. But there are many people that like and relate to Jason's character. He's enthusiastic and sincere.
Have you played the game or are you just disliking this review because you want Agra to be good?