I really regret not establishing a strict alternate picking regimen from the start. Now, after all these years of economy picking, I can't seem to get out of it! I have discovered there are certain runs that I really NEED to alternate pick in order to perfect! So I am just now starting to intentionally apply alternate picking where I would normally economy pick and, let me tell ya, it's like starting all over again!
Years ago he said in a magazine interview that he also taped off the bottom 3 strings because he never used them. I'm still waiting for the JH 3 string signature guitar.
I say both. Economy for arpeggios and odd numbered patterns and alternate picking for everything else. It depends on the tempo too. Of course if you have a slow tempo keep it alternate.
There’s also a technique of a circular motion that I and many others use for feel variations on the string attack. Almost digging in and a warmer sound that you can’t get as much of when alternate picking. Nobody taught me, it just came natural. But alternate picking is a must to get good at and it’s fun when you nail it.
Hey Ben, If you had kids, would you steer them towards music early on (in the sense of playing an instrument) or would you rather wait for them to devolop a love for music for themselves and then built upon that desire? Love your channel Cheers from germany!
Time feeling is enormous... I started with economy picking and I sounded bad, alternate picking is much better for feel BUT if you are using a fair bit of legato or sweeping then I can see why you would be OK with the slurred vibe. Most important thing is you need to play in time, and the benefits of economy are lost unless you cheat the extra notes with legato etc. Great channel.
You've articulated pretty well why I've always loved Paul Gilbert's playing -- he really likes to play in pocket, with a nice driving and groovy rhythm. I can also see why players like Tosin, EJ and Yngwie prefer economy picking -- they tend to play extremely fast bursts of notes that can come from absolutely nowhere, which was pretty fucking scary to listen to as a fledgling guitarist. Still loving your videos Uncle Ben. Also, thanks for pointing me towards Cracking The Code. If I might make a request for a future episode, is there an exercise you personally do to get practice two-way pickslanting? I've always wanted to try and isolate that motion that changes the way the pick is slanted.
You're right about rythm. It's the most important thing to have in mind, whether you choose economy ou alternate picking. I'm an economy picker myself, because it feels so natural to me now, but when I started using this technique after watching Frank Gambale's instructional video, I did it the lazy way, with no control on the rythm. I've worked that out by training on accents either up or downwards, alternating 3 and 2 notes per string scale runs in order to gain control. I don't think there's a better or worse technique, you have awesome players in each side as you said. The key is to have perfect control of the picking hand. And I'm still working on that and always will be I guess.
Allow me to say that alternate is not only about time but about tone as well. Imagine for instance If Zakk Wylde used to use economy picking on pentatonics. .Half of magic would disappear. ..
As someone who accidentally figured out crosspicking, alternate works for most stuff. I'm starting to play around with economy picking and one way slanting which is great, but doesn't come naturally.
I've seen Big Wreck a few times live and they are definitely on the top of my list for great gigs. He even pulled out his guitar tech to play a song with them. Most fun I've ever had at a concert hands down
Ben, I enjoyed the video and thanks for tackling the techniques of alternate and economy picking. In the guitar universe there is a lot of debate about which technique is better. I like to use both techniques in my own playing. MAB once said something that hit me like a ton of bricks. He said, “it’s better to have it and not need it, then to need it and not have it.” MAB made this point in Speed Kills dvd.
Just checked out Big Wreck and they definitely have something about them. I will hear more. Here in Oregon we have a band called Floater and this band reminds me of Floater. Not really for any exact reason, I guess. I think maybe you'd like Floater if you haven't heard them already. They are very professional musicians who write some powerful tunes. Anyway, I prefer their fist 4 or 5 albums a bit more than the last couple. "Angels in the Flesh, Devils in the Bone" is definitely worth an hour of your time. Do you have a dream guitar or know how you would want your own signature model?
Love the movie, and the book. King was pissed that Kubrick missed the subtext of the book that was centered around his personal struggles with alcoholism. Thanks for recommending Big Wreck. Enjoyed it, will definitely toss them into the morning commute mix.
I saw Big Wreck for free at Port Colbourne I think 2 years ago and they were awesome. I don't understand why they aren't more popular. Like I could just walk up to the front of the stage. It was awesome.
Oh my god, the “blurry/flurry” way you described Yngwie suddenly unlocked something in my brain, I always had trouble learning his stuff because it’s all these wild note groupings that don’t make any sense because he’s just in his own world 😂😂😂
Ben, just wanted you to know, you've helped and are helping this old 55 year old guitar player get his stuff together with the alternate picking (down-up slant etc,) I've always been a slop but my ear for tone has always been great.. I build pedals and amps and always thought 2 sweet notes are better than 50 but truthfully I've always envied players such as yourself, and hope that I can nail the "Here I Go Again" solo for my band as well as you before I croak, lol... Thank You for giving me confidence.. :)
That part about a "flurry" or a "blur" of notes is very accurate. I always felt that way about economy and ever since I switched to alternate I feel a lot better about my rhythm. The "metronome" alternate picking guys like John Petrucci, Jeff Loomis and Jason Becker always sound amazing to me.
Glad you got me on to Big Wreck, Uncle Ben! Have been following Ian Thornley on IG for a while and didn't realize he was in Big Wreck, too. Dude slays! You should do some of their licks/solos.
Thank ya for answering my question broseph. As for the neck thickness, I didn't think about that one but I'm also the exact same way. On a baritone guitar, it's gotta be pretty thin, but on a 6 string, I really don't care. In some cases I actually prefer a thicker neck nowadays on 6 strings. They just feel nicer to me. I even discovered recently I really like V shaped necks.
To support your point regarding the continuous motion when alternate picking, I guess it's the same reason basically every guitarist keeps their hands in motion when strumming, even when they are not playing any notes.
Thanks for this Uncle Ben! I was taught to economy pick and I'm so used to it that I find strict alternate picking at speed pretty tough now. Weirdly I find it easier to focus on the rhythm when I don't have to think 'down up down up down up' but I do get what you're saying - plus I ALWAYS practice with a metronome!
Thanks for throwing Big Wreck props. I'm like you, I can't understand why they're not known better, especially among musicians. ALL of their records are incredible! To add to that, Ian Thornley put out a couple of 'solo' albums under the moniker 'Thornley' that are just as killer. Thanks for everything you do, keep it up. \m/
hey Ben I think you're spot on with alternate vs economy but I think there’s one element that hasn’t been explored a whole lot in this subject/debate. Since economy is generally faster but alternate is generally going to be more rhythmically precise, a player that wants to really burn both at high speeds and in time has two choices in my mind: try to tighten up the timing of economy OR try to speed up the alternate. I think there’s more resources out there for speed building and less for tightening up time within single note lines. For example, I have accent/time building exercises I do and that I give my students within the context of economy picking, but I don’t see that stuff often. So I’ve been super interested in this subject in the sense that I don’t think we’ve ever had a LOT of economy picking players working on nailing their time and doing tight/advanced rhythmic concepts. But we do have a lot of players that stick with alternate and end up with very low speed caps. So I think it’s a super interesting question for them: easier to speed up the alternate, or easier to tighten up the time of the economy? I really don’t know! And I think until we get more data on it it's hard to really say.
Jake Estner Guitar Lessons you gotta a point there! What I have observed over time is that a lot of people doing economy picking are in the metal style of music. With that much distortion the difference in tone of the single notes is barely audible especially at high speed. Interesting subject. 🤘🏻
yeah man I think I hear both approaches in many different styles of music, so part of the equation is what type of articulation or time feel a player wants. Some people really don't like that very 'even' Pat Martino kind of feel, and some people love it. So there are choices about sound/style that factor in, but ideally they're choices are not just resignations based on technical limitations.
Really good answer to the picking question! For me alternate feels much more natural and the attack on the string is harder with better tone. Paul Gilbert often show just that. It’s not just playing a note, it’s so much how you do it to get the right sound. Often more important than whatever Amp settings.
The rhythm/pattern of alternate vs economy that you've mentioned here at this point is a big factor to me. And funny enough, I see some economy picking advantages as a disadvantage. For example, if I have to play 2 notes, it feels like it needs 2 motions, so at high speeds, I simply "lose count" when economy picking. Also my hand sync is messed up, more tension in my body is created because when changing strings I have to in a sense "slow down" or "stop" half way through not to pick the second note too quickly. Now I know doing strictly just one of them is kind of limiting, but at this point, I'm kind of struggling to make a decision. I can see good and bad in both of these ways of picking🤷🏻♂️
I too had a phase when I was obsessed with economy picking and practiced it until it became completely natural. Now I dont even think about it and I basically sweep through everything that lines up all the time. But since I dont think about it it's actually realllly hard to not do it. Now that I've stopped being so obsessed with playing fast solos, I'm more and more trying to revert to alternate picking. I find that for repetitive licks in general it's much cleaner and groovy if I alternate everything. So all in all, fluidity and speed: economy picking. tight and groovy: alternate picking.
useful discussion for those of us who are noobs and curious about the world of economy vs. alternate. Alternate just feels like a more natural way for the human brain to cope with accuracy and speed.
I encountered economy picking with Frank Gambale back in the late 80s or early 90s and was kind of bummed that I had already become an alternate picker. I tried to change to economy picking but didn't like it... and I couldn't quite put my fingers on why I didn't like it... pardon the pun 😉 I chalked it up to "set in my ways" and moved on. You just shed the light on "the why"... Because it screws with the rhythm! Thank you!
i really wish i would have spent more time learning to strict alternate pick -- i didn't even know it existed as a thing until today O.O, i was doing something similar when trying to lean "Icarus Lives" b/c i just couldn't keep track of the rests.
If I economy or alternate pick it messes with my mind after missing a note it gets hard to deal with the thought that I'm doing the absolute opposite motions if I miss one note. makes me start over and try not to miss worse
Hey Uncle Ben, glad to hear you discovered a fellow Canadian band Big Wreck and if you like Ian Thornley's writing, playing and singing you should also check out his solo album called Come Again by Thornley, he is underrated as a guitar player but man he can sneak so much cool stuff in his songs. Question I have is do you have any Guitar utility apps that you recommend/use and what do you use them for? i.e. Scales, Chords, Tunings...etc.
...Redrum. Hey Uncle Ben, if you're digging Big Wreck, you should check out a band called The Tea Party. They started in the 90's...Their sound is kind of like the next step from what Zeppelin and the Beatles were doing by mixing world music sounds with rock 'n roll. If I remember, even Jimmy Page at the time said he thought of them as the next evolution of what he did. Just a lot darker and sung by a baritone. Lots of open tunings, instrumentals and just great rock sounds. I'd start with the first two albums (Splendor Solis/The Edges Of Twilight) and go from there. Still the best live band I've ever seen. Just for some reason, like Big Wreck, they never managed to break into the U.S..
If you're having difficulty crossing the string using alternate or economy, hammering on the note *before* you Hop on to the next string always does the trick for me, it doesn't mess your rhythm.
I think I love you because some of the background music was The Neverending Story theme. Great vids. Hopefully they help out a rusty player like me. Thanks !
Both techniques are a subject of respect and never-ending effort to master for me and still at 50 I toil but I'm not ashamed to say it ..I'm a faker of all and a master of none....... Poland, Yngwie, Holdsworth, Eddie, Randy, Jake....Eller... And 7th on the 5th string roster team... Stepdad...
I see you play the bass a lot. My questions are, as a guitar player how do I start with playing the bass? What books and songs do you recommend that'll get me started playing? Especially for heavy metal. Thanx!
It's ultimately down to what the music requires for me. But each tends to have preferences. I prefer staying locked in with the beat, just fast runs sound cooler when locked in with a beat or slightly syncopated. Blurry economy picking stuff does sound cool too. A lot of classical was the same, you had the very rhythmic stuff, and more of the flowy stuff. Each valid, each perfectly okay to use. So yeah, learn alternate and economy picking.
Economy picking may be more efficient with hand motion but alternate picking is much more efficient on brain power, meaning you learn more at a faster pace since your not obsessed about your hand motion, just lock into that tempo and go
I have always been more of an economy player, as it feels more natural and not so metronome - exercise like, and it's also easier to get away with legato of sweeping. That said, I must remark that alternate feels much more precise when playing 3 note per string runs, and also sounds more mechanical, a type of classic shrapnel sound i'm fond of. Your lessons on muting and sweeping were killer, thank you so much for those, a game changer for me. A question: what recording method do you use? Do you record wirh direct input and plugins? Thank you
I was convinced that Al Di Meola used economy picking for some of his licks at least. Does he not? How the hell...?? for the alternate vs economy picking discussion, I think exactly like uncle Ben here. I'd sum it up as alternate: rythm economy: fluidity I've started focusing on economy picking about 10 years ago when I came across guys like Malmsteen and Michael Romeo. At the time I just got hooked by how fluid their shredding sounded. Now I've fully integrated economy picking into my playing to the point where I don't really realize I'm doing it. But I feel a bit trapped with that now. Because in time I,ve come to realize that, as mentioned here, alternate picking yields a much more groovy sound. With a good alternate picking lick you just feel like tapping your feet. Trying to replicate that with economy picking, even when you feel on time, just doesn't cut it most of the time. I wonder if many players can move fluidly between the two picking styles, or if you kinda have to commit to one to become fully natural with it. I know that at this point it'd be very hard for me to revert back to alternate picking. I know, I've tried! Even when doing alternate picking exercises when I start doing them faster I notice that I sometimes end up slipping back to economy picking on some of the moves.
Hey Ben, I love your stuff! I used to be a student of Phillip before I moved, what is a good starting point for learning music theory? Most TH-cam videos I watch about theory make my head spin, so I was wondering if you knew of any good places to go to learn some theory. Thanks dude, keep jammin!
I can solve the mystery of directional picking It's like economy but you *sweep the string changes* Down up sweep up down up down up down sweep down. Economy would be down up up down up down down. With economy picking, two pick motions in the same direction. With directional picking, multiple strings are played with the same pick hand motion Everybody alternate picks when there's an even number of notes on each string. That's just the way it's going to work it out no matter which of the three picking philosophies you choose. 2, 4, 6, 8, however many notes on each string, you'll begin that string in one direction, and end in the other. For me, I just continue the direction of travel that I'm already moving in. If I pick 73 notes on the G and my next note is on the D, my hand is already traveling up so, economy of motion. 🤷♂️ I'm not really sure if I'm using economy picking or directional picking but, the concept behind directional picking does sound more logical, cleaner, more economical, smoother, and faster than alternate or economy. I can't play fast to save my life though so, the hell do I know?
When im learning a song or a solo i do economy picking if it makes sence but when im improvising i only do alternate picking because its easier so play then and i can concentrate my self more on what to play.
Baked POTATO I’ve always done economy picking before I even knew what it was. Whenever I play up a scale I do economy, but when I go down I alternate. I switch between the two when improvising
Hey Ben, question: What's your favorite memory from a concert you've attended, and if you've ever met one of your musical idols at a concert, which encounter was the most exciting for you (and how bad was your post-concert depression afterward)?
Stephen King did hate the movie so he ended up making a mini series and doing it his way and it didn't do well. Also, check out JP Cormier if you like bluegrass.
I hate the feeling of economy picking it's not rhythmic. I think if you naturally switch between downward and upward pick slanting efficiently it's not really necessary but I can see how it's very useful for players like Malmsteen and Petrucci who seem to exclusively slant down.
My pick hand has always done what it wants and never stays on track according to any pattern. Every once in a while I'll have an issue whe when I need to do econmy picking on the up angle... up down up up down up....... when I get into issuesl ike that I usually grip the pick in my mouth and start finger picking xD
Another great entry-wide range of topics. Will definitely listen to more Big Wreck!! Also a crazy Shining nerd who hasn’t read the book. While I agree I should, I don’t believe they even have much to do with each other. It was more a vehicle for Kubrick to create arguably the greatest psychological thriller ever. Beautifully shot and bristling with subtexts and mess-with-your-head disorientation (not to mention unnerving soundtrack), an all time great. Check out Rob Ager’s YT channel for lots of analysis.
Picking talk starts at 5:22
you’re welcome 👍
X
Thanks!
Not all heroes wear capes
Thanks!
I really regret not establishing a strict alternate picking regimen from the start. Now, after all these years of economy picking, I can't seem to get out of it! I have discovered there are certain runs that I really NEED to alternate pick in order to perfect! So I am just now starting to intentionally apply alternate picking where I would normally economy pick and, let me tell ya, it's like starting all over again!
and then there is james hetfield: down, down, down, down, down, down
James "the pick can go up?" Hetfield
Years ago he said in a magazine interview that he also taped off the bottom 3 strings because he never used them. I'm still waiting for the JH 3 string signature guitar.
Or almost everyone playing gypsy jazz
Ultimate picking
I say both.
Economy for arpeggios and odd numbered patterns and alternate picking for everything else.
It depends on the tempo too.
Of course if you have a slow tempo keep it alternate.
Mr. Metalhorse what about the good ol saying?.... there's the right way ...the wrong way ...and the Yng way....lol....
1251wire yup. I don't like to think of it as down, up, down down
Because is more like down, up, down, sweep.
11:25 is me every night around 11pm
Immolation Liquidation lmfaooooo 😂😂😂😂
I knew what is was before clicking yet it still made me laugh
The real weekend wankshop
There’s also a technique of a circular motion that I and many others use for feel variations on the string attack. Almost digging in and a warmer sound that you can’t get as much of when alternate picking. Nobody taught me, it just came natural. But alternate picking is a must to get good at and it’s fun when you nail it.
Hey Ben, If you had kids, would you steer them towards music early on (in the sense of playing an instrument) or would you rather wait for them to devolop a love for music for themselves and then built upon that desire? Love your channel
Cheers from germany!
Time feeling is enormous... I started with economy picking and I sounded bad, alternate picking is much better for feel BUT if you are using a fair bit of legato or sweeping then I can see why you would be OK with the slurred vibe. Most important thing is you need to play in time, and the benefits of economy are lost unless you cheat the extra notes with legato etc. Great channel.
Really well-reasoned analysis of pros and cons of both kinds of picking styles, thanks Ben!
Glad you liked it!
You've articulated pretty well why I've always loved Paul Gilbert's playing -- he really likes to play in pocket, with a nice driving and groovy rhythm.
I can also see why players like Tosin, EJ and Yngwie prefer economy picking -- they tend to play extremely fast bursts of notes that can come from absolutely nowhere, which was pretty fucking scary to listen to as a fledgling guitarist.
Still loving your videos Uncle Ben. Also, thanks for pointing me towards Cracking The Code. If I might make a request for a future episode, is there an exercise you personally do to get practice two-way pickslanting? I've always wanted to try and isolate that motion that changes the way the pick is slanted.
TheGuitar Person hell yes!!! Have you watched the Weekend Wankshop called “two way pick slanting secrets”?
You're right about rythm. It's the most important thing to have in mind, whether you choose economy ou alternate picking. I'm an economy picker myself, because it feels so natural to me now, but when I started using this technique after watching Frank Gambale's instructional video, I did it the lazy way, with no control on the rythm. I've worked that out by training on accents either up or downwards, alternating 3 and 2 notes per string scale runs in order to gain control. I don't think there's a better or worse technique, you have awesome players in each side as you said. The key is to have perfect control of the picking hand. And I'm still working on that and always will be I guess.
Allow me to say that alternate is not only about time but about tone as well. Imagine for instance If Zakk Wylde used to use economy picking on pentatonics. .Half of magic would disappear. ..
ever osfp alternate picking does seem a lot aggressive, but not as aggressive as downpicking 😂
Zakk actually uses alot of economy picking although he is known for his alternate... but its does change the tone
How is it different if you just learn how to do it properly?
Could you then actually distinguish separate notes instead of a cacophonic mess?
As someone who accidentally figured out crosspicking, alternate works for most stuff. I'm starting to play around with economy picking and one way slanting which is great, but doesn't come naturally.
Really loved how you explained it!!!! You are amazing Ben!!!!!!
I've seen Big Wreck a few times live and they are definitely on the top of my list for great gigs. He even pulled out his guitar tech to play a song with them. Most fun I've ever had at a concert hands down
Getting that value! I can only imagine if we had these resources in '98
Ben, I enjoyed the video and thanks for tackling the techniques of alternate and economy picking. In the guitar universe there is a lot of debate about which technique is better. I like to use both techniques in my own playing. MAB once said something that hit me like a ton of bricks. He said, “it’s better to have it and not need it, then to need it and not have it.” MAB made this point in Speed Kills dvd.
BEST EXPLANATION EVER!!!! thank you from Switzerland 🇨🇭
Just checked out Big Wreck and they definitely have something about them. I will hear more.
Here in Oregon we have a band called Floater and this band reminds me of Floater. Not really for any exact reason, I guess.
I think maybe you'd like Floater if you haven't heard them already. They are very professional musicians who write some powerful tunes. Anyway, I prefer their fist 4 or 5 albums a bit more than the last couple. "Angels in the Flesh, Devils in the Bone" is definitely worth an hour of your time.
Do you have a dream guitar or know how you would want your own signature model?
Huge fan of yours from Canada here and I was very surprised to hear you give big wreck a shout out! You're the man uncle ben!
Economy picking is great, if you are married. Most single guys have fantastic alternate picking skills, even if they don't play guitar.
I had not heard of Big Wreck before, so I queued them up and fell in love right away. Thanks for the tip!
Love the movie, and the book. King was pissed that Kubrick missed the subtext of the book that was centered around his personal struggles with alcoholism. Thanks for recommending Big Wreck. Enjoyed it, will definitely toss them into the morning commute mix.
I saw Big Wreck for free at Port Colbourne I think 2 years ago and they were awesome. I don't understand why they aren't more popular. Like I could just walk up to the front of the stage. It was awesome.
Oh my god, the “blurry/flurry” way you described Yngwie suddenly unlocked something in my brain, I always had trouble learning his stuff because it’s all these wild note groupings that don’t make any sense because he’s just in his own world 😂😂😂
Hey Uncle Ben, what's up with the step mom's hair band around the guitar neck? Awesome video as always
Felix Porras yo! The b string on this one rings a little behind the nut. That keeps it nice and quiet.
Thanks for the Big Wreck recommendation. Loving this band.
well that cleared up alternate vs economy for me. thanks dad
Ben, just wanted you to know, you've helped and are helping this old 55 year old guitar player get his stuff together with the alternate picking (down-up slant etc,) I've always been a slop but my ear for tone has always been great.. I build pedals and amps and always thought 2 sweet notes are better than 50 but truthfully I've always envied players such as yourself, and hope that I can nail the "Here I Go Again" solo for my band as well as you before I croak, lol... Thank You for giving me confidence.. :)
That part about a "flurry" or a "blur" of notes is very accurate. I always felt that way about economy and ever since I switched to alternate I feel a lot better about my rhythm. The "metronome" alternate picking guys like John Petrucci, Jeff Loomis and Jason Becker always sound amazing to me.
And just like that, Darrell became a huge Big Wreck fan. Thanks Ben!!!
Glad you got me on to Big Wreck, Uncle Ben! Have been following Ian Thornley on IG for a while and didn't realize he was in Big Wreck, too. Dude slays! You should do some of their licks/solos.
Thank ya for answering my question broseph. As for the neck thickness, I didn't think about that one but I'm also the exact same way. On a baritone guitar, it's gotta be pretty thin, but on a 6 string, I really don't care. In some cases I actually prefer a thicker neck nowadays on 6 strings. They just feel nicer to me. I even discovered recently I really like V shaped necks.
Yeah some really good points about alternate picking...!
Great vid Ben
First time in 30 years ive heard someone explain that time feel difference between alternate and economy. So true… great insight
To support your point regarding the continuous motion when alternate picking, I guess it's the same reason basically every guitarist keeps their hands in motion when strumming, even when they are not playing any notes.
Watch the Steve Weber made for TV The Shining. It's closer to the book than the Kubrick film (which I love as well).
"A body in rhythm tends to stay in rhythm -Uncle Ben" Can I make a shirt? lol
Thanks for this Uncle Ben! I was taught to economy pick and I'm so used to it that I find strict alternate picking at speed pretty tough now. Weirdly I find it easier to focus on the rhythm when I don't have to think 'down up down up down up' but I do get what you're saying - plus I ALWAYS practice with a metronome!
Thanks for throwing Big Wreck props. I'm like you, I can't understand why they're not known better, especially among musicians. ALL of their records are incredible! To add to that, Ian Thornley put out a couple of 'solo' albums under the moniker 'Thornley' that are just as killer. Thanks for everything you do, keep it up. \m/
hey Ben I think you're spot on with alternate vs economy but I think there’s one element that hasn’t been explored a whole lot in this subject/debate. Since economy is generally faster but alternate is generally going to be more rhythmically precise, a player that wants to really burn both at high speeds and in time has two choices in my mind: try to tighten up the timing of economy OR try to speed up the alternate. I think there’s more resources out there for speed building and less for tightening up time within single note lines. For example, I have accent/time building exercises I do and that I give my students within the context of economy picking, but I don’t see that stuff often. So I’ve been super interested in this subject in the sense that I don’t think we’ve ever had a LOT of economy picking players working on nailing their time and doing tight/advanced rhythmic concepts. But we do have a lot of players that stick with alternate and end up with very low speed caps. So I think it’s a super interesting question for them: easier to speed up the alternate, or easier to tighten up the time of the economy? I really don’t know! And I think until we get more data on it it's hard to really say.
Jake Estner Guitar Lessons you gotta a point there! What I have observed over time is that a lot of people doing economy picking are in the metal style of music. With that much distortion the difference in tone of the single notes is barely audible especially at high speed. Interesting subject. 🤘🏻
yeah man I think I hear both approaches in many different styles of music, so part of the equation is what type of articulation or time feel a player wants. Some people really don't like that very 'even' Pat Martino kind of feel, and some people love it. So there are choices about sound/style that factor in, but ideally they're choices are not just resignations based on technical limitations.
Thanks for turning me onto Big Wreck. I have downloaded all their albums now.
Really good answer to the picking question! For me alternate feels much more natural and the attack on the string is harder with better tone.
Paul Gilbert often show just that. It’s not just playing a note, it’s so much how you do it to get the right sound. Often more important than whatever Amp settings.
The rhythm/pattern of alternate vs economy that you've mentioned here at this point is a big factor to me. And funny enough, I see some economy picking advantages as a disadvantage. For example, if I have to play 2 notes, it feels like it needs 2 motions, so at high speeds, I simply "lose count" when economy picking. Also my hand sync is messed up, more tension in my body is created because when changing strings I have to in a sense "slow down" or "stop" half way through not to pick the second note too quickly. Now I know doing strictly just one of them is kind of limiting, but at this point, I'm kind of struggling to make a decision. I can see good and bad in both of these ways of picking🤷🏻♂️
I use a hybrid of both picking styles
I too had a phase when I was obsessed with economy picking and practiced it until it became completely natural. Now I dont even think about it and I basically sweep through everything that lines up all the time.
But since I dont think about it it's actually realllly hard to not do it.
Now that I've stopped being so obsessed with playing fast solos, I'm more and more trying to revert to alternate picking. I find that for repetitive licks in general it's much cleaner and groovy if I alternate everything.
So all in all,
fluidity and speed: economy picking.
tight and groovy: alternate picking.
useful discussion for those of us who are noobs and curious about the world of economy vs. alternate. Alternate just feels like a more natural way for the human brain to cope with accuracy and speed.
Man , Big Wreck is totally awesome !! You are right , I heard Chris Cornell , Rush , Zeppelin. Thanks for the lead , instant fan !!
I encountered economy picking with Frank Gambale back in the late 80s or early 90s and was kind of bummed that I had already become an alternate picker. I tried to change to economy picking but didn't like it... and I couldn't quite put my fingers on why I didn't like it... pardon the pun 😉 I chalked it up to "set in my ways" and moved on. You just shed the light on "the why"... Because it screws with the rhythm! Thank you!
Cool vid! And thanks for the Big Wreck recommendation--amazing!
I appreciate your insight Ben. Thank you!
i really wish i would have spent more time learning to strict alternate pick -- i didn't even know it existed as a thing until today O.O, i was doing something similar when trying to lean "Icarus Lives" b/c i just couldn't keep track of the rests.
I had an Ibanez pre Gibson law suit black left handed Les Paul Custom and an black Ibanez Flying V.
Check on the Ian Thornley interview on the Andertons channel. Great tunes. Ghosts is a classic. Wolves. The Oaf. Start with those.
Speaking of suhr artist parties, you ever heard of Al Estrada? He’s got some tone in his fingers for sure
Thanks for the Big Wreck tip - checked out Albatross - kills! Great that there is still real talent out there.
If I economy or alternate pick it messes with my mind after missing a note it gets hard to deal with the thought that I'm doing the absolute opposite motions if I miss one note. makes me start over and try not to miss worse
Travs Guide same
Those hedge animals, freaked me out!
I’ve always done alternate picking for 90% of my playing, but when you do quick arpeggios, you can’t really alternate-pick those. Always rake/sweep.
Hey Uncle Ben, glad to hear you discovered a fellow Canadian band Big Wreck and if you like Ian Thornley's writing, playing and singing you should also check out his solo album called Come Again by Thornley, he is underrated as a guitar player but man he can sneak so much cool stuff in his songs. Question I have is do you have any Guitar utility apps that you recommend/use and what do you use them for? i.e. Scales, Chords, Tunings...etc.
Ian is such a great writer. I saw Big Wreck live a couple times and they kicked ass
...Redrum. Hey Uncle Ben, if you're digging Big Wreck, you should check out a band called The Tea Party. They started in the 90's...Their sound is kind of like the next step from what Zeppelin and the Beatles were doing by mixing world music sounds with rock 'n roll. If I remember, even Jimmy Page at the time said he thought of them as the next evolution of what he did. Just a lot darker and sung by a baritone. Lots of open tunings, instrumentals and just great rock sounds. I'd start with the first two albums (Splendor Solis/The Edges Of Twilight) and go from there. Still the best live band I've ever seen. Just for some reason, like Big Wreck, they never managed to break into the U.S..
If you're having difficulty crossing the string using alternate or economy, hammering on the note *before* you
Hop on to the next string always does the trick for me, it doesn't mess your rhythm.
I think I love you because some of the background music was The Neverending Story theme. Great vids. Hopefully they help out a rusty player like me. Thanks !
Both techniques are a subject of respect and never-ending effort to master for me and still at 50 I toil but I'm not ashamed to say it ..I'm a faker of all and a master of none....... Poland, Yngwie, Holdsworth, Eddie, Randy, Jake....Eller... And 7th on the 5th string roster team... Stepdad...
Gonna check Big Wreck now !! Sounds intriguing.
I just had to look up Big Wreck "Albatross", what an amazing band and song. It is such a shame they are not a better known group....
This video makes me feel sad I don't still have my 7 string I wonder why people always go back to 6
Great explanation, as usual, keep up the great work!
I see you play the bass a lot. My questions are, as a guitar player how do I start with playing the bass? What books and songs do you recommend that'll get me started playing? Especially for heavy metal. Thanx!
Next FAQ you, can you take us on a tour of your room? What gear are you using, guitars, cameras, etc. What prints are on your wall?
Economy picking feels a bit inconsistent to me and fucks up my alternate picking, so i just stick with alternate.
It's ultimately down to what the music requires for me. But each tends to have preferences.
I prefer staying locked in with the beat, just fast runs sound cooler when locked in with a beat or slightly syncopated.
Blurry economy picking stuff does sound cool too.
A lot of classical was the same, you had the very rhythmic stuff, and more of the flowy stuff. Each valid, each perfectly okay to use.
So yeah, learn alternate and economy picking.
Hey Uncle Ben! There’s a doc on Hulu called Room 237. I think you’ll enjoy it since you are into all things Shining!
Was that you uncle Ben, playing that guitar version of never ending story? Lol sounded awesome, makes me want to listen to Dragonland's cover of it.
Daniel Wilcox hahaha you damn right!!! Impressed you caught that!
Economy picking may be more efficient with hand motion but alternate picking is much more efficient on brain power, meaning you learn more at a faster pace since your not obsessed about your hand motion, just lock into that tempo and go
I have always been more of an economy player, as it feels more natural and not so metronome - exercise like, and it's also easier to get away with legato of sweeping. That said, I must remark that alternate feels much more precise when playing 3 note per string runs, and also sounds more mechanical, a type of classic shrapnel sound i'm fond of.
Your lessons on muting and sweeping were killer, thank you so much for those, a game changer for me. A question: what recording method do you use? Do you record wirh direct input and plugins? Thank you
I was convinced that Al Di Meola used economy picking for some of his licks at least. Does he not? How the hell...??
for the alternate vs economy picking discussion, I think exactly like uncle Ben here.
I'd sum it up as
alternate: rythm
economy: fluidity
I've started focusing on economy picking about 10 years ago when I came across guys like Malmsteen and Michael Romeo. At the time I just got hooked by how fluid their shredding sounded.
Now I've fully integrated economy picking into my playing to the point where I don't really realize I'm doing it. But I feel a bit trapped with that now. Because in time I,ve come to realize that, as mentioned here, alternate picking yields a much more groovy sound. With a good alternate picking lick you just feel like tapping your feet. Trying to replicate that with economy picking, even when you feel on time, just doesn't cut it most of the time.
I wonder if many players can move fluidly between the two picking styles, or if you kinda have to commit to one to become fully natural with it. I know that at this point it'd be very hard for me to revert back to alternate picking. I know, I've tried! Even when doing alternate picking exercises when I start doing them faster I notice that I sometimes end up slipping back to economy picking on some of the moves.
Great lesson. BTW what's you axe wielding plectrum of choice?
Hey Ben, I love your stuff! I used to be a student of Phillip before I moved, what is a good starting point for learning music theory? Most TH-cam videos I watch about theory make my head spin, so I was wondering if you knew of any good places to go to learn some theory. Thanks dude, keep jammin!
James Gaddy yo dude! Check out episode #11 of FAQ You!
ive always economy picked...ive tried to break the habit but i think im jus gonna roll with it
I can solve the mystery of directional picking
It's like economy but you *sweep the string changes*
Down up sweep up down up down up down sweep down.
Economy would be down up up down up down down.
With economy picking, two pick motions in the same direction. With directional picking, multiple strings are played with the same pick hand motion
Everybody alternate picks when there's an even number of notes on each string. That's just the way it's going to work it out no matter which of the three picking philosophies you choose. 2, 4, 6, 8, however many notes on each string, you'll begin that string in one direction, and end in the other.
For me, I just continue the direction of travel that I'm already moving in. If I pick 73 notes on the G and my next note is on the D, my hand is already traveling up so, economy of motion. 🤷♂️
I'm not really sure if I'm using economy picking or directional picking but, the concept behind directional picking does sound more logical, cleaner, more economical, smoother, and faster than alternate or economy.
I can't play fast to save my life though so, the hell do I know?
When im learning a song or a solo i do economy picking if it makes sence but when im improvising i only do alternate picking because its easier so play then and i can concentrate my self more on what to play.
Baked POTATO I’ve always done economy picking before I even knew what it was. Whenever I play up a scale I do economy, but when I go down I alternate. I switch between the two when improvising
Hey Ben, question: What's your favorite memory from a concert you've attended, and if you've ever met one of your musical idols at a concert, which encounter was the most exciting for you (and how bad was your post-concert depression afterward)?
If you had a sig guitar, who would make it and what would it be?
That's the frickin Neverending Story theme song in the background of the email answer part!
I love your channel. So underrated!!!!!!!!
Yep, Ian Thornley is absolutely incredible. I agree Big Wreck should be much bigger than they are.
Put link to the band in the description please. Thanks!
Check the shinning tv series too.
Hey uncle ben when will you bust out some good ol racer x in your boombox?
Stephen King did hate the movie so he ended up making a mini series and doing it his way and it didn't do well. Also, check out JP Cormier if you like bluegrass.
I hate the feeling of economy picking it's not rhythmic. I think if you naturally switch between downward and upward pick slanting efficiently it's not really necessary but I can see how it's very useful for players like Malmsteen and Petrucci who seem to exclusively slant down.
What just fell out of your ear at 3:41?
Cav Ratiug hahahahaha DUDE!!!!! What the fuck is that?!?!?! Hahahaha
No worries! I did not lose my focus on your video. Keep up the great work!
Hey Ben, how do you feel about the game Rocksmith?
I don't think he liked it.
Did y’all do the shining on the podcast? I don’t remember if I heard you do it and I’m too lazy to go look
CPotter Vlog we haven’t yet!!!! When we do, I don’t know how I’ll be able to keep it under 5 hours hahaha I love that movie so much!
My pick hand has always done what it wants and never stays on track according to any pattern. Every once in a while I'll have an issue whe when I need to do econmy picking on the up angle... up down up up down up....... when I get into issuesl ike that I usually grip the pick in my mouth and start finger picking xD
My favorite and least creepy uncle 🙃
Definitely both alternate and economy. And hybrid. ...and swybryd. O.o
Another great entry-wide range of topics. Will definitely listen to more Big Wreck!!
Also a crazy Shining nerd who hasn’t read the book. While I agree I should, I don’t believe they even have much to do with each other. It was more a vehicle for Kubrick to create arguably the greatest psychological thriller ever. Beautifully shot and bristling with subtexts and mess-with-your-head disorientation (not to mention unnerving soundtrack), an all time great.
Check out Rob Ager’s YT channel for lots of analysis.