Hey everyone, I wanted to point out that in an attempt to keep this video relatively short, I didn't address every single aspect and counter-point. All of this was unscripted and just hits some of the main arguments. For example, I SOMETIMES translate the names of characters in the novels I translate, and I didn't get into an explanation of why I feel it's okay to do that on rare occasions. I'm sure there are exceptions to many if not most of the points I make. At some point I plan to follow up this video with a longer article about the subject.
Well, let's say there is a swordsman that cultivates fire skills and his name literally means "Flaming Blade" then you can justify translating the name itself (as you can assume his parents named him so because of his heritage and it makes sense) even then it is kinda funny to hear such a name. Now my question is: Is there any reason why she should be called "Lotus" ? Any relations, skills, birthplace? Sorry for my ignorance, never had the time to read the classics.
All Chinese names have a meaning, regardless of where the meaning came from. Just because you CAN translate it, and it makes sense, doesn't mean you should. My brother-in-law's name essentially means "aspiring to be a sovereign" because he was born in the year of the monkey and the monkey king has a title with a similar character in it. But that doesn't mean I introduce him to English-speaking friends as "Sovereign-Aspiring". Lol. And no, there is no reason for her to be called Lotus and the character itself doesn't mean lotus.
Well all turkish names also have a meaning, my given name means "Hope" but I can assure you I'm the most pessimistic person you can meet. Funniest name to translate would be "Imdat" which literally means "Help" . But that was not my point, there are some chinese translations were the translator changed all names There was even a story (I can't remember which story it was, I'm sure it was dropped) where the translator named a side character "Christian" which is in no case a name for a guy that wants to be God :) Yeah some translators do weird things, but is there any relation to Lotus, or is it only similar characters? By the way I've Book and the Sword and Condor Heroes on my reading list, which is better to start with? Thanks
Agreed. This is bad translation. Being asian myself, a lot of our names has a meaning behind it. To do the exact translation of the names is just a no, especially to english as well. Example, its like taking Andrew (means strong or brave in Greek), and using the exact translation for the name. So you would have a name like "Brave" Johnson or "Strong" Johnson, instead of Andrew Johnson which is just weird and destroy the purpose of the name.
Lol. That's a good example. Yes, there are just so many reasons why it's stupid to translate the names, I think it would be fun to write an article showing all the silly results which could come about
Edit: Lol. Wrote this at about 13:12 and DB ended up pretty much saying the same thing. Really late to the party but I very much agree. People seem to forget it because of the Chinese or even Asian trend to focus a bit more on name meanings due to how their languages are structured but names are names and not their meanings. Take for example the name "Yuri", In Russian it means 'farmer' and in Japanese its 'Lily', now in Asian culture some people may pick your nickname based on the meaning of your name more commonly, where in the western world that is less likely and people may stick solely to character traits or just shortened forms but in the end a name is still a fixed moniker. You don't translate names simply because names don't truly have translations. You can translate the meaning of a name but that's still just its meaning and not the name itself.
here in Vietnam, we have the same story with Lord of the Rings, for axemple: Rivendell became "Thung Đáy Khe" mean "valey at the bottom of the crack". it baffle me why they doing this.
oh gosh, and you seem to use latin letters too...I could understand if you had some convoluted script but "valley at the bottom of the crack" my sides hurt from laughing.
Thats pretty common in book translations. Here, for exmple, in the spanish translation of a song of ice and fire it has things like: Invernalia (winterfell) meaning something like "land of winter" Aguasdulces(riverrun) litterally meanin "sweet wathers" Poniente(westeros) litterally meaning "were the sun sets"
Found your channel by accident and love it! I remember Legends of the Condor Heroes was the first Wuxia book I read as a kid. I actually saw this English translation in a book store awhile ago, read through a few pages and saw the atrociously stupid translated names and put it back down immediately.
It's actually a very serious problem. For example in Desolate Era, Ren translates Taoist nicknames and it works good. But, as you mentioned, names are important. I mean real names, not nicknames. So, i hope that they will get a sudden enlightenment, and give us the original names. Personally, i cant accept a real name like Priceless Golden Lotus or smt, for gods sake...
I almost became one of the people who bought all the books, opened the first book, and thought to myself, "Who are these characters? Why do they have such weird names?" I have been watching the (1994) TV series again and again since I was a child. I would have been disappointed to discover the (apparently poor) translations of the (apparently selected) names while reading the books. The name translation definitely deters me from buying the books. Thank you for sharing this information.
I am a bit late to this, but as longtime fan of these novels, I totally understand how you feel. You made a lot of great points, and those people are fools to ignore your inputs.
Same here, it adds a bit more depth to their identity. As opposed to reading someones name as a translated word of english like lotus, it gives more personality when one knows the person by their real name, thus associating the person with that name and not the translated word... And as deathblade mentioned, for nicknames its the other way around.
I've been a fan of the genre for a decent while now but somehow managed to avoid any of the Condor Heroes adaptations so this translation was my first introduction to these characters. I'm certainly enjoying myself a lot with the books, but it's interesting to have this insight.
Hey, very interesting video. I'm currently reading book one in this series as my first trip into the literary world of wuxia. Seeing as I didn't know this story beforehand, the issue with the names doesn't bother me so much. That being said I totally get why it would bother people who knew the stories, as I know it bothers me to read names translated into Danish myself. I find this an interesting point to take with me for future readings. You make some very informative videos.
I totally agree also, i haven't read wuxia novells for too long but i see i the problem. It' something that scares me away from the novel. It would just feel wrong when reading, it's like cheating on a lover. You just don't do it.
Finally got around to reading the first two books (I hesitated for a while, in part because of your video). I'm not crazy about some of their choices as far as names go (Lotust took me a while to get over) but I understand the tranlators desire to make the novel more accessible to a broader audience. Personally, I'm just so happy to have these stories finally available in book form that I'm willing to overlook a few warts. If we want more wuxia novels in english, we do need to encourage what we have; while of course expressing our concerns to the publishers.
I just finished the first book and I totally agree. I also noticed in the translation the various kung fu moves are completely translated into English, which i think is totally fine. But giving complete translations to character names makes things so confusing, especially when we want to go find the Chinese version of each character's names.
So the publisher went on to publish the book with the translated names?? 😮 I was planning to buy this series, but now I guess I'll just read the fan translations....
A shame. I grew up with the tv shows because my parent loved the stories through original Chinese and later Vietnamese translations (which I can't read). A good English translation would have been awesome. Would be super weird with these name translations. Don't know if I could get over this issue enough to enjoy the story.
I imagine that if Gandalf had not told Frodo that they were going to see Elrond, the mighty ruler of the elves, but instead that they were going to see “stardome”, the scene would have felt much sillier.
Hmm as someone mostly unfamiliar with Chinese culture, but interested in the wuxia genre, I found the translated names helped me remember who was who much easier. I understand it’s controversial, I had a similar experience when I read Tolkien in Portuguese (my native language) for the first time, and all the places names were translated. It’s weird for those familiar with it, but it makes it way more accessible for ppl with no prior knowledge of the language and culture in question.
The lack of consistency is what really gets to me. I do some work proofreading and the number one thing I look for is consistency. I have my own preferences for certain things and so does everyone else, but consistency is something we should all be able to agree on.
I don't see why anyone would translate Asian names to English ones. Asian names usually have meanings For example in the novel you're translating for A Will Eternal, you posted this in the first chapter. Bai Xiaochun’s name in Chinese is 白小纯 bái xiǎo chún. Bai is a surname which also means “white.” Xiao means “little.” Chun means “pure”. Which would essentially make his name in English Little Pure, with the last name White? What I'm getting at is that as you know in western culture we don't attach any important MEANING to a name, our parents name us as such because they like the name itself. It would be much easier for us to associate with Bai Xaiochun than it would for Little Pure.
I think some translators mistakenly think it adds "flair" but in my opinion it actually serves to reduce the impact of the nicknames/Daoist names/Jianghu names. And yeah, "Little Pure" is not a name. In Deer and the Cauldron, the translator change Wei Xiaobao into "Trinket" which I always thought was just his nickname. It wasn't until later I realized that the translator just decided to call him Trinket instead of his name.
I wouldn't say that Western culture as a whole doesn't attach important meaning to the names given to children. My parents put a lot of thought into the names they gave me and my sister, including the meanings.
I like what you have to say and agree. From what I recall, a translation of Water Margin I read handled it by introducing the characters with Pinyin but then using the nicknames (translated) to refer to them throughout the book. I would like to read the books, but I'm torn because I want to read the original Chinese, though my level is not that high yet so reading them takes quite a bit of time just to read a page or two. I have the first two volumes of this translation but have been hesitant to start. I instead chose to watch the tv dramas to pick up the general story. I'm leaning towards just gradually chipping away at the original Chinese new editions. On the other hand reading the translation just to give myself an understanding of the story might help, but those name translations would bother me as I'm familiar with the characters having watched the shows and speak intermediate Chinese. Anyone have any suggestions?
Cool video and I completely agree. Translating names of characters is just awkward no matter how you look at it so they should just stay as transliterations. I understand translating a character's titles or monikers as that's meaningful, in fact I'd prefer that. That's just my thought; there are always gonna be questionable decisions in localizations no matter what form of media it is.
I think those names may be better translated just by pinyin, such as HuangRong is ok, by the way I'm a big fan of wuxia novel, not only written by Jin yong , Gu long, LiangYuSheng, and a modern novel written by a taiwan writter SunXiao, and the novel's name is 英雄志 which I think is also a excellent novel (although it's not finished till now.)
In my country, the names are changed to Hokkien if I remember it correctly. I suspect it's only because the translator himself speaks Hokkien. This made me feels weird when I was watching returns of the condor heroes in mandarin with fan subtitles, because when I was a kid they dubbed it with hokkien pronounciation of the name. I can imagine the old readers of the new translated novel will feel much worse than me then...
Indonesian? I'm a dialect speaker too (Teochew) and watched the series in my childhood. However, I learned Mandarin and it doesn't feel weird to me though as I could make the connection between Hokkien and Mandarin. Hokkien feels like a super weird Teochew to me anyway. LOL.
I'm learning Chinese using Traditional Characters. I wish there were someone on TH-cam who could just read 10 or 20 pages of one of the Jin Yong novels, in Chinese and then explain the names and some of the words. At my rate it will be two years before I even attempt something like Legend of the Condor Heroes. Also, can you suggest a good book (books) for getting up to speed on the Chinese history, martial arts and Taoist concepts in his novels ? I'm using Routledge Encylopedia of Chinese Culture but wonder if there is something better (Names in PinYin and Traditional Chinese with explanations in English. As for English translations, I'm not going near them as too many people have spoken out about their shortcomings.
Yes, it will take years before you can read Jin Yong (well, it depends on how hard you study). I don't know of any one single source for Chinese stuff. You should probably aim to read a lot to get a strong foundation
@@Deathblade Thanks ! By the way, what Chinese - English and English - Chinese dictionary do you use ? I like Matthew's but it never tells you when the word your looking up is classical, or modern - you're never sure what era it's from, usually.
I haven't read any of these stories in any form I don't think, but I'm with you on how you're feeling. Every name in every language has a meaning, but people don't go around calling each other the meanings of their names, they say the name. If I'm reading a story from another language I don't want an Anglicized version of any name. It gets in the way of the immersion.
I once bought a compilation of the "Romance of the Three Kingdoms" translation. But the translator used Wade-Giles system instead of the currently more common and popular pinyin system. And it totally throw be off. I watched the movies and Tv-Series with subtitles and played games so I was used to the characters names. But with Wade-Giles system, Cao Cao became Ts'ao Ts'ao, Sun Quan turn into Sun Ch‘üan, Xiahou Dun -> Hsiahou Tun, Zhuge Liang -> Chuko Liang, etc. It was unreadable.
There's really only two major English translations. If yours was Wade-Giles, it's likely that you read Brewitt-Taylor's. And he used Wade-Giles because, well, pinyin literally didn't exist yet. It wasn't created until decades after his death. The more recent (relatively) translation by Moss Roberts uses pinyin for names. Both version have their pros and cons. Robert's uses the more familiar romanization system and contains tons of notes, explanations on culture, geography, etc. But the language is a little dry. Brewitt-Taylor uses Wade-Giles---which I agree, it's awful--but his English prose flows way better. Good news is that since the CBT translation is public domain, you can find a free version online (also with extensive scholarly notes) that has updated all the names to pinyin.
It has been translated to Myanmar like 20 years ago. It is still one the greatest novel till now. It is like an essential curriculum for all wuxia and xinxia readers from Myanmar. I tried to read English version but it doesn't completely catch the essence of the original version.
I hate localization where they remove the setting or culture. I like when novels explain some concepts of the language that can't be properly translated, like the honorifics of japanese. I also like when novels show the original characters of the character's name, its pronunciation, and its translation when it's relevant, just for memory or curiosity's sake, but then keep their name it in its original language afterwards.
gods yeah the honorifics! !! I hate english's lack of decency when addressing non family members. I feel like I'm being rude for no reason. In romanian we have 3 levels of courtesy plus an archaic version of the courtesy system used in remote rural areas. I hate not having that when I express myself, it can be so versatile in communication.
Good point. Maybe if they really wanted to, they could put literal meanings in parentheses or a sidebar, or have an appendix of them in the back of the book, since they may be interesting factoids, but not essential to the story. Using them in the story does make them sound like silly superhero names. I never really thought about this, but I wonder if Native Americans feel this way when people translate their names.
So I started reading Holmwoods translated version. Naturally, I wouldn't know a good translation from a bad one since I don't speak Yong's language, otherwise I would probably also be, WTF? HOWEVER, from what I understand, Yong's book wasn't an easy translation to do. Its frustrating because people are easy to point out the "issues" BUT if this book is such a bad translation, can y'all point me to a book that is more faithful to the culture and language? Of all the translations out there, which is the good one? I'm willing to read this in Spanish if its out there too...thanks :D. Also, I noticed that part 2 is being translated by someone else. I quite agree about name changes as I don't see what the big deal is about keeping the original names. Dumb. Give me a little explanation about what their names might mean if you will, but keep their original ones. I'm not stupid. I can keep up.
Here is a link to the fan translation which will be poorer in terms of English, but better in terms of accuracy. www.spcnet.tv/forums/showthread.php/11465-LOCH-unabridged#.XdmPAehKguU There are other problems with the Holmwood translation which I don't get into in this video. I never did get around to fully reading it to do a review. You might want to check out another translator who did do a review though: etvolare.com/review-of-a-hero-born-some-thoughts-on-wuxia-translation/
I think if people like the book and culture they will put in the effort....catering like this to other cultures does harm. I met chinese people in USA and they just could never be bothered to teach me their names and just said they are Daisy or Bob. Well then don't complain westerners can't say chinese names. When I met them I told them my turkish name, helped them pronounce it and told them what it means... so they called me a bastardized version of it, that sounded like another unrelated french name...but hey, it was a lot closer than Bob.
I think it could be better if the translators retain the sound of the characters' names, and just add an explanatory after it first occurs, like Yang Guo (in Chinese 杨过, which hints at the mortal sins his father had committed and also an admonition to him)
That's a low blow. Most people would just sound pompous but still fine, however then you'd get the occasional unfortunate soul whose name is donkey or something.
No, honestly a big no. I myself included don't think that's how it really works in real life. For some reason even though many of the name's used now how a meaning behind them but you don't see people using the meaning of name but a name when addressing someone else with a name from different cultures. I for example would probably get so annoyed that I would beat the shit out of anyone who kept calling to me "Hey conqueror wanna go grab a drink or two?" or "Hey conqueror what do you think about the crypto crash?". No, I will stick with Victor, and that's why I don't want names translated to English be it from asian, slav, or other cultures.
Well dealing with the names, the pokimon path or the DBZ: With chinese names there are meanings like A Will Eternal's Mc's name is pure irony as compared to his real self. With DBZ the names of the characters have puns on them which are cool.
Great opinions. I agree with you and really like this video. It made me laugh LOL. What do you think about the translations of those Kung Fu terms? Such as 九阴白骨爪, etc. Would you do it differently?
I think that when it comes to those things, sometimes the translations are fairly obvious and should be translated accordingly. Other times there is a lot of room for translator preference.
Lotus is not a terrible translation of huong rong. Huong means yellow, rong means core or melt. I never thought of it as lotus but if u think about yellow core, you think of the yellow pollen of a flower. That is where the progression is from. Jin yong(rong). It means gold melt, or core. There should have the name and the appendix of what the name means. The names has meaning like yang gou, deers past, he was named that to not forget his past. Gou jing, means peaceful country, he was named that for reason, his character lives to protect his country.
I find this impulse really strange in Chinese novels. I don't see this done with Japanese names, which almost always have kanji which could also be translated like this, rather than turned into their phonetic equivalent.
According to wikipedia, in Edward Seidensticker's translation of The Tale of Genji, Murasaki is called "Lavender". Honestly even as a Chinese reader of the story, Murasaki is Murasaki to me, not Lavender. In both Huang Rong's and Murasaki's case, it would have been a lot better if the translator use her real name and ( ) the nick name instead.
@@connielam3629 While Seidensticker isn't necessarily my favorite translation of Genji, you have to admit, Murasaki also isn't really her name when it comes down to it. She's referred to as "The Lady of the West Wing" and Murasaki itself is a nickname translators and commentators gave to improve readability. If anything, this is an argument to me in favor of changing the names since it seems to work better so long as you get used to the adaptation before the original.
In my experience people may be indifferent to chinese culture and so and such, but one thing everyone easily agrees on (although not said directly) is that chinese names are very cool sounding names or very different/weird/mysterious in their ways. As someone who hasn't read it I don't think Lotus Wang sounds bad per se (though the original does sound better), but hearing you say that only some were changed at random, if that's true then I completely agree that it's a horrible mistake.
I agreed. I'm very annoyed to the point that I skipped the part of the translated name and just read the rest. it saved me a lot of time to ..... novels.
George Bush will get the Chinese name 农树. "George" means farmer or earthworker. I think 农 is a good fit. "Bush" means a small tree. The small part is the modifier, but it is essentially a tree. So, 树 is a good fit. LOL.
I think regardless if there trying to bring in new people into the wuxia/xianxia or chinese community in general, directly translating chinese names is a horrible idea for example one story im reading the mc name is Duan Ling Tian according to the translator in english it would be something like soaring the heavens, if that was the first time i read a chinese novel i would stop reading it due to how silly the mc's name would sound let alone how the rest of the novel would be like
I personally don't mind the change of names to a more 'relatable' name especially if the pronunciation is tricky. To this day even though I know better when I see the name Xuan I think "Juan" and I don't mind a bunch of Little Faerie, Iron fist, Demon fang, Dragon this or that.. but Qingyue, Qinghua and Weixiong, can be an obstacle to new readers. As to the oldschool readers that might be perturbed in changing the names I get what you are saying but by far the focus has to be in bringing in new readers that have never given it a try. A big explosion of new readers is good for everyone and the future of novels
The problem with translating Chinese characters to single English words is because Chinese characters can have many different meanings and nuances, and the corresponding English words could have very different meanings and nuances.
From my experience most words will have that, it's not just a chinese or japanese problem...they don't translate Jesus or Maria, I see no reason they should translate other foreign names. People can remember Huang and Lee and Wu especially if they read it over and over....like they learned the difference between Robert and Richard.
I'm all for more easily recognizable names; however it has to be done right and if it's not, it can make the entire work seem cheap and low quality. The thing with novels is that nobody pronounces words, we just want to be able to recognize them (which the condor trilogy easily does). Db, the name change is probably their main selling point. You care too much, you should just sit back and watch them fail. Though because of the cultural differences, the company should really have some native English speakers read and provide feedback before publishing large scale
I think their main selling point is to try to compare the novel to Lord of the Rings. Other than that they don't seem to be doing much in the way of trying to market it to the existing audience or a new one.
Having read this version of the condor heroes multiple times (it is the only version I can read lying down in bed,) I still have the same problems with it. I hate the translated names. They're just awful. Mercy Mu, Charity Bao... For fuck's sake, Yang Guo's name is translated something like "prosper atone" or some BS. It's a pantomime. Count Seven Hong? Why not just say Hong the Seventh? Why not say Hong Qigong? Any of those sound better than Count Seven Hong. It's insulting to translate every name literally when the meaning of the name is only rarely important to the story, and could have been explained with parentheses.
i agree with your point of view and as a preference i would like the names unchanged, but i have 2 problems with your argument. 1. why would chinese people buy an english translated book, would they not by the original version? 2. i think your being a hypocrite because you changed bruisers name in a will eternal.
As I already explained many, many times, "Bruiser" is a pet/nickname. It's not a surname/given name combination. And just in case you didn't know, there are a lot of Chinese people in the world who speak Chinese but don't read it.
@Josh Juniel Because a large part of the Chinese diaspora may not be proficient enough in Chinese to read the original Jin Yong novels. However, they may have fallen in love with the characters already through various other formats like the numerous television adaptations (whether they be from HK, Taiwan, China) over the decades.
I would like to add my two cents. I am a Cantonese speaker raised in Canada and I grew up watching the 1983 TV Cantonese adaptation of this novel. I think I have watched it about 10 times. This is to provide some context to my comments. I recently found out about translated novel as I cannot read Chinese well, despite 2.5 hours of Chinese school every Saturday for nine years. When I read Mandarin names, my eyes see a bunch of letters and not a name. When it is spelled out from the Cantonese sound, this does not happen, perhaps because my mind turns the letters into a word. And while I wholeheartedly agree with your video about the weirdness of translating a name, I think that it makes it easier to read for readers who are new to the language. If that's the target audience, translating names is the right move. Reading Lotus will definitely make me cringe, but I think it will be an easier read for me. Thanks for your video!
I'm a Chinese person from an anglophone family and the idea of introducing myself by a literal translation of my name sounds completely idiotic. Doing that makes it sound like bad fiction written by westerners who don't know anything about Chinese culture (looking at you, Orson Scott Card....)
I personally have never read the original, I don't know the names of the characters. I think the grips are really fans who will complain. I get the argument though. I agree with you but as someone ignorant about it I will take as is; if I read it because I don't know any better.
It's better to learn Chinese if someone don't want to miss some detail of not-translated-version. for example 张无忌 the literal means with no taboo but the readers all know that he is the most sttuggled man in this book, and JinYong must deliberately used 无忌 to name it, in this case, whether translate by literal or by meaning will lose some intension of the novel.
Historically, people did translate names. Felipe would be translated into Phillip. Isabel would be translated into Elizabeth or Isabella. But these are all Indo-European names, esp. on the European branch of the Indo-European family tree. Scientists especially translated their regional names into Latin. That's how we come to know of great scientists such as Copernicus, not Mikołaj Kopernik.
No they didnt, Phillip and Felipe are both names. Theyre not words youre going to find in the dicitonary of a language. So nothing was translated. The pronounciation was changed. Which would be like changing "rong" to "ronge" or something, but thats not what the translator did.
That's localization not translation. And they still do it more or less on purpose. Like my name is turkish, Deniz, but people often mistake it for Denis when writing it...one means sea the other is french for Dionisus the god of wine.
The character in question is 雕 which should be eagle. Many, many years ago a translator picked condor because the bird in the story is huge. And no, condors are Western Hemisphere birds. There is a California condor which I’m very familiar with being from San Diego, and the Andean condor from down south.
yeah, but if nobody ever says anything no change will come...and he's very polite by american standards I think XD guess you can always be even more polite...can't hurt.
I'm Chinese and also a translator. I'd like to give my personal opinion regarding your video. 1. Perhaps you happen to know many people who already know Jin Yong's works or his characters' names. That might be true among fans of Chinese culture (but are they the target reader of this version?). However, from my own experience (I've lived in different countries for years and know quite a few non-Chinese speakers), I don't know anyone who has ever heard of Jin Yong. But that's your "impression" against mine. Without an objective and fair survey, none of us is in a good place to make a conclusion for everyone. 2. Whether one should (ever) translate Chinese names is a choice, not a rule like you said: "people just don't translate Chinese names". In many cases, a translator may opt for translation or partial translation rather than 100% transliteration, depending on what he or she is trying to attain. Reading a translated novel full of unfamiliar, unpronounceable and unmemorable names that have no sense can be frustrating for some, if not for all. If the translation is well done, it won't sounds too odd or silly for an English reader. 3. Silly may be your opinion towards these translated names since you already have a very profound understanding of the Chinese language and culture. Nevertheless, they may still sound cool to others. Jin Yong's novel is suitable for all ages, but most of us read it between 10 and 22 years old. We grow up with it. It is part of our childhood and teen years, and it seemed so cool. A party translated name might convey the same "coolness" to the English readers of the same age group. 4. I find it slightly unfair to give out a comment without even finishing the book. As you said, dealing with Chinese names is no easy task. For whatever reason the publisher has chosen to use translation rather than transliteration, I hope they can achieve their goals. I also understand your concern and your points. But please, when expressing your opinions, please try not to represent everyone. Finally, I feel very very happy to see people like you who are enthusiastic about our culture and try your best to help spread it out. A big THANK YOU.
1. Yes, there are many people who are fans of Jin Yong. There are facebook groups, forums, clubs, etc. with many, many fans. 2. I know. 3. As I said in the video, I know that they will sound cool to the readers. That doesn't make it the best choice though. 4. If the publisher hands out review copies for people to review and then talk about publicly, why would it be unfair to comment? That's actually the whole point of distributing review copies. I'm not the only person who was given a review copy, many others were as well. I never tried to represent everyone. Where did I do that?
I hope the translator should at least keep Huang Rong's name. Huang Rong is not that difficult to pronounce, just like Guo Jin. She is now officially Lotus Huang forever. Honestly in the translation, the translator added the script as "Guo Jin doesn't know what Lotus is" (so he cannot understand Lotus Huang is actually female). To English reader who cannot link the word "Rong" to Lotus anyway, calling Lotus is no different from Rose/Daisy/Daffodil. You can replace her name with anything in the script, and it will work because Guo Jin doesn't know what this "anything" is anyway, according to the translator. The beloved Huang Rong has disappeared. Her name Rong is what makes her unique. Also, some characters have their last name first and others don't. It is this inconsistency that makes it really funny. If Huang Rong is Lotus Hunag, then why not Guo Jin become Concord (meaning peaceful) Guo？ If it is such a good idea to translate names, the name printed on the cover 'JIN YONG' also doesn't mean anything to English readers. JIN means gold and Yong means ordinary. Do you agree to call him Mr. "Golden Commoner" or Mr. "Ordinary Gold"? So he may sound cooler to the translation's target teenage reader and give meanings to his name? It is even easier to remember for them. But you think Mr. JIN YONG would be happy to see his name translated and printed on the cover like that? There is a reason why translating names is not preferred. It is disrespectful, even to the characters. If the translator is translating other pieces, maybe yes, perhaps she could freely do so as she like. But this is JIN YONG, not Ordinary Gold. It should be treated with utmost carefulness and respect. At least please keep the consistency? Is there really no other ways to explain the meaning of the names other than changing it completely?! Could it not be a side note? This is a sincere question. Changing her name just seem to be the quick and easy way out, but not respectful enough to such a character whom Mr. Jin had so lively created.
that why they should just pay some1 who into the genre to translate it and not some idiot who just want to westernize it. this happen in video game a lot too. everytime they bring a chinese or korean game over and decide to westernize the game, it totally ruin the game. nowadays i stay away from anything port of game or novel that is westernize. if i want ot play a western game or read a western novel, ill get one, if i searching for a estern game or a eastern novel for god sake, i want a eastern game/novel.
You do have a point, and I'm not going to take that away from you. They part where you may want to reexamine your opinion, though, is where you describe it as a "BIG problem" and say that the publishers are turning people off of the books. Absolutely no one of consequence will be turned off of reading these novels. It's okay to mention it as a pet peeve, but you're making this into a much bigger issue than it really is. Actually, it comes across as petty. You do have a valid point about the inconsistency. I've mentioned the translated names to some people here, and they have no problems with it being changed. It's their own culture, and they're not offended. It seems strange that a foreigner would be offended on their behalf. Also, it does happen that a screenwriter will change a character's name in the book when making it into a movie. I've yet to see someone boycott the movie because of this issue. I also hope that, when moving to China, you chose a 100% phonetic rendition of your English name when deciding what name to use on your local ID.
Your critisms of huang rong is off also, huang rong is her name in Mandarin. As a cantonese speaker its wong yong. So when you say huang rong is definitive it dismisses cantonese and hong kong, while loch was first published in the HONG KONG chinese newspaper. The meaning is important yr dismissing of the meaning of the names dismisses chinese culture, cantonese culture and hong kong culture. When subtitled hong kong tvb serials of condor heroes is what made it famous in asia in the first place.
@@Deathblade sure but that point is irrelevant and doesn't make what I'm saying irrelevant. The names go with the story and plotline and adds to the LORE. Gou jing should be Gaw Jing cantonese as it SHOULD be in english. Like why are you using mandarin instead of cantonese when this is a product of hong kong culture thats such a PRC crushing cantonese and hong kong political move. All chinese know Andy Lau is the most famous legendary chinese actor and his first role ever was yang gou or YEUNG GAW. Those 80s tv series are classic and were the first on dvd with eng subs for mass consumption avail on amazon. In the plot GAW JING aka peaceful nation has a strong sense of nationalism that his people should not be invaded and be asks Mongolian leaders for peace. He reminds Yeung gaw Aka GOATS PAST he was named that as to not forget and repeat the sins and mistakes of the past, his fathers. Greatest Of All Time as yeung gaw was the strongest in the end. Shao long nui or SEW LONG LOY, little dragon girl. She is icy, enjoys lives solitary in caves, or tombs filled with treasure, she IS a dragon girl. Hong qi gong or hong chut gong in cantonese, meaning red seven elder. He says in the story, he doesn't care if he is number 1 in the world he is happy being number 7. This is all part of the LORE and when you dismiss name meanings this lore becomes lost in translation. Etymology shouldn't be ignored or diminished as one of the points of this story is to preserve chinese culture. Again thats foreingers not respecting/ misunderstanding chinese culture and its uniqueness. when chinese people meet each other they do ask what character it is to know the meaning of their name. They should use cantonese imho but pronounce however in english, but have an appendix for what the names mean, like how lord of the rings had an appendix for elfish.
Hey everyone, I wanted to point out that in an attempt to keep this video relatively short, I didn't address every single aspect and counter-point. All of this was unscripted and just hits some of the main arguments. For example, I SOMETIMES translate the names of characters in the novels I translate, and I didn't get into an explanation of why I feel it's okay to do that on rare occasions. I'm sure there are exceptions to many if not most of the points I make. At some point I plan to follow up this video with a longer article about the subject.
Well, let's say there is a swordsman that cultivates fire skills and his name literally means "Flaming Blade" then you can justify translating the name itself (as you can assume his parents named him so because of his heritage and it makes sense) even then it is kinda funny to hear such a name.
Now my question is: Is there any reason why she should be called "Lotus" ? Any relations, skills, birthplace? Sorry for my ignorance, never had the time to read the classics.
All Chinese names have a meaning, regardless of where the meaning came from. Just because you CAN translate it, and it makes sense, doesn't mean you should. My brother-in-law's name essentially means "aspiring to be a sovereign" because he was born in the year of the monkey and the monkey king has a title with a similar character in it. But that doesn't mean I introduce him to English-speaking friends as "Sovereign-Aspiring". Lol. And no, there is no reason for her to be called Lotus and the character itself doesn't mean lotus.
Well all turkish names also have a meaning, my given name means "Hope" but I can assure you I'm the most pessimistic person you can meet. Funniest name to translate would be "Imdat" which literally means "Help" . But that was not my point, there are some chinese translations were the translator changed all names
There was even a story (I can't remember which story it was, I'm sure it was dropped) where the translator named a side character "Christian" which is in no case a name for a guy that wants to be God :)
Yeah some translators do weird things, but is there any relation to Lotus, or is it only similar characters?
By the way I've Book and the Sword and Condor Heroes on my reading list, which is better to start with?
Thanks
Either one of them is good!
Agreed. This is bad translation. Being asian myself, a lot of our names has a meaning behind it. To do the exact translation of the names is just a no, especially to english as well. Example, its like taking Andrew (means strong or brave in Greek), and using the exact translation for the name. So you would have a name like "Brave" Johnson or "Strong" Johnson, instead of Andrew Johnson which is just weird and destroy the purpose of the name.
Lol. That's a good example. Yes, there are just so many reasons why it's stupid to translate the names, I think it would be fun to write an article showing all the silly results which could come about
Edit: Lol. Wrote this at about 13:12 and DB ended up pretty much saying the same thing.
Really late to the party but I very much agree. People seem to forget it because of the Chinese or even Asian trend to focus a bit more on name meanings due to how their languages are structured but names are names and not their meanings.
Take for example the name "Yuri", In Russian it means 'farmer' and in Japanese its 'Lily', now in Asian culture some people may pick your nickname based on the meaning of your name more commonly, where in the western world that is less likely and people may stick solely to character traits or just shortened forms but in the end a name is still a fixed moniker.
You don't translate names simply because names don't truly have translations. You can translate the meaning of a name but that's still just its meaning and not the name itself.
here in Vietnam, we have the same story with Lord of the Rings, for axemple: Rivendell became "Thung Đáy Khe" mean "valey at the bottom of the crack". it baffle me why they doing this.
oh gosh, and you seem to use latin letters too...I could understand if you had some convoluted script but "valley at the bottom of the crack" my sides hurt from laughing.
Thats pretty common in book translations.
Here, for exmple, in the spanish translation of a song of ice and fire it has things like:
Invernalia (winterfell) meaning something like "land of winter"
Aguasdulces(riverrun) litterally meanin "sweet wathers"
Poniente(westeros) litterally meaning "were the sun sets"
Found your channel by accident and love it! I remember Legends of the Condor Heroes was the first Wuxia book I read as a kid. I actually saw this English translation in a book store awhile ago, read through a few pages and saw the atrociously stupid translated names and put it back down immediately.
Yeah, it's really sad.
It's actually a very serious problem. For example in Desolate Era, Ren translates Taoist nicknames and it works good. But, as you mentioned, names are important. I mean real names, not nicknames. So, i hope that they will get a sudden enlightenment, and give us the original names. Personally, i cant accept a real name like Priceless Golden Lotus or smt, for gods sake...
I almost became one of the people who bought all the books, opened the first book, and thought to myself, "Who are these characters? Why do they have such weird names?" I have been watching the (1994) TV series again and again since I was a child. I would have been disappointed to discover the (apparently poor) translations of the (apparently selected) names while reading the books. The name translation definitely deters me from buying the books. Thank you for sharing this information.
I am a bit late to this, but as longtime fan of these novels, I totally understand how you feel. You made a lot of great points, and those people are fools to ignore your inputs.
i have only been reading wuxia for about a year but i really like the names being not translated and even learning to pronounce them properly
Agreed. I translate most everything possible, but names are off the list in almost all situations.
Same here, it adds a bit more depth to their identity. As opposed to reading someones name as a translated word of english like lotus, it gives more personality when one knows the person by their real name, thus associating the person with that name and not the translated word... And as deathblade mentioned, for nicknames its the other way around.
I've been a fan of the genre for a decent while now but somehow managed to avoid any of the Condor Heroes adaptations so this translation was my first introduction to these characters. I'm certainly enjoying myself a lot with the books, but it's interesting to have this insight.
Hey, very interesting video. I'm currently reading book one in this series as my first trip into the literary world of wuxia. Seeing as I didn't know this story beforehand, the issue with the names doesn't bother me so much. That being said I totally get why it would bother people who knew the stories, as I know it bothers me to read names translated into Danish myself. I find this an interesting point to take with me for future readings. You make some very informative videos.
Thanks for bringing this issue to my attention. I would not have known of it otherwise.
I totally agree also, i haven't read wuxia novells for too long but i see i the problem. It' something that scares me away from the novel. It would just feel wrong when reading, it's like cheating on a lover. You just don't do it.
Finally got around to reading the first two books (I hesitated for a while, in part because of your video). I'm not crazy about some of their choices as far as names go (Lotust took me a while to get over) but I understand the tranlators desire to make the novel more accessible to a broader audience. Personally, I'm just so happy to have these stories finally available in book form that I'm willing to overlook a few warts. If we want more wuxia novels in english, we do need to encourage what we have; while of course expressing our concerns to the publishers.
I just finished the first book and I totally agree. I also noticed in the translation the various kung fu moves are completely translated into English, which i think is totally fine. But giving complete translations to character names makes things so confusing, especially when we want to go find the Chinese version of each character's names.
So the publisher went on to publish the book with the translated names?? 😮
I was planning to buy this series, but now I guess I'll just read the fan translations....
A shame. I grew up with the tv shows because my parent loved the stories through original Chinese and later Vietnamese translations (which I can't read). A good English translation would have been awesome. Would be super weird with these name translations. Don't know if I could get over this issue enough to enjoy the story.
"Hey, Beautiful Money" XD
"Dragon" LOL. XD
11:16 that remaind me how we, in spanish, used to mock Bush by calling him "Jorge Arbusto" wich Is the litteral translation of His name
I imagine that if Gandalf had not told Frodo that they were going to see Elrond, the mighty ruler of the elves, but instead that they were going to see “stardome”, the scene would have felt much sillier.
Harry Potter - Furry Ceramic
Superman - Extra Guy
Batman - Flying Mouse Dude
Hmm as someone mostly unfamiliar with Chinese culture, but interested in the wuxia genre, I found the translated names helped me remember who was who much easier. I understand it’s controversial, I had a similar experience when I read Tolkien in Portuguese (my native language) for the first time, and all the places names were translated. It’s weird for those familiar with it, but it makes it way more accessible for ppl with no prior knowledge of the language and culture in question.
The lack of consistency is what really gets to me. I do some work proofreading and the number one thing I look for is consistency. I have my own preferences for certain things and so does everyone else, but consistency is something we should all be able to agree on.
I don't see why anyone would translate Asian names to English ones. Asian names usually have meanings For example in the novel you're translating for A Will Eternal, you posted this in the first chapter. Bai Xiaochun’s name in Chinese is 白小纯 bái xiǎo chún. Bai is a surname which also means “white.” Xiao means “little.” Chun means “pure”. Which would essentially make his name in English Little Pure, with the last name White? What I'm getting at is that as you know in western culture we don't attach any important MEANING to a name, our parents name us as such because they like the name itself. It would be much easier for us to associate with Bai Xaiochun than it would for Little Pure.
I think some translators mistakenly think it adds "flair" but in my opinion it actually serves to reduce the impact of the nicknames/Daoist names/Jianghu names. And yeah, "Little Pure" is not a name. In Deer and the Cauldron, the translator change Wei Xiaobao into "Trinket" which I always thought was just his nickname. It wasn't until later I realized that the translator just decided to call him Trinket instead of his name.
I wouldn't say that Western culture as a whole doesn't attach important meaning to the names given to children. My parents put a lot of thought into the names they gave me and my sister, including the meanings.
Individual parents may, but Western culture as a whole doesn't give two whits at all that your name has any specific meaning.
I like what you have to say and agree. From what I recall, a translation of Water Margin I read handled it by introducing the characters with Pinyin but then using the nicknames (translated) to refer to them throughout the book. I would like to read the books, but I'm torn because I want to read the original Chinese, though my level is not that high yet so reading them takes quite a bit of time just to read a page or two. I have the first two volumes of this translation but have been hesitant to start. I instead chose to watch the tv dramas to pick up the general story. I'm leaning towards just gradually chipping away at the original Chinese new editions. On the other hand reading the translation just to give myself an understanding of the story might help, but those name translations would bother me as I'm familiar with the characters having watched the shows and speak intermediate Chinese. Anyone have any suggestions?
I am sure you are right about everything but I am just happy to read this great book
Cool video and I completely agree. Translating names of characters is just awkward no matter how you look at it so they should just stay as transliterations. I understand translating a character's titles or monikers as that's meaningful, in fact I'd prefer that. That's just my thought; there are always gonna be questionable decisions in localizations no matter what form of media it is.
Yeah, it is what it is. Decisions made by people unfamiliar with the genre and the existing fanbase will always run the risk of being questionable.
I think those names may be better translated just by pinyin, such as HuangRong is ok, by the way I'm a big fan of wuxia novel, not only written by Jin yong , Gu long, LiangYuSheng, and a modern novel written by a taiwan writter SunXiao, and the novel's name is 英雄志 which I think is also a excellent novel (although it's not finished till now.)
In my country, the names are changed to Hokkien if I remember it correctly. I suspect it's only because the translator himself speaks Hokkien. This made me feels weird when I was watching returns of the condor heroes in mandarin with fan subtitles, because when I was a kid they dubbed it with hokkien pronounciation of the name. I can imagine the old readers of the new translated novel will feel much worse than me then...
Indonesian? I'm a dialect speaker too (Teochew) and watched the series in my childhood. However, I learned Mandarin and it doesn't feel weird to me though as I could make the connection between Hokkien and Mandarin. Hokkien feels like a super weird Teochew to me anyway. LOL.
100% agree with this! but Xiaolongnu>>>>Huang Rong all day
I'm learning Chinese using Traditional Characters. I wish there were someone on TH-cam who could just read 10 or 20 pages of one of the Jin Yong novels, in Chinese and then explain the names and some of the words. At my rate it will be two years before I even attempt something like Legend of the Condor Heroes. Also, can you suggest a good book (books) for getting up to speed on the Chinese history, martial arts and Taoist concepts in his novels ? I'm using Routledge Encylopedia of Chinese Culture but wonder if there is something better (Names in PinYin and Traditional Chinese with explanations in English.
As for English translations, I'm not going near them as too many people have spoken out about their shortcomings.
Yes, it will take years before you can read Jin Yong (well, it depends on how hard you study). I don't know of any one single source for Chinese stuff. You should probably aim to read a lot to get a strong foundation
@@Deathblade Thanks ! By the way, what Chinese - English and English - Chinese dictionary do you use ? I like Matthew's but it never tells you when the word your looking up is classical, or modern - you're never sure what era it's from, usually.
I haven't read any of these stories in any form I don't think, but I'm with you on how you're feeling. Every name in every language has a meaning, but people don't go around calling each other the meanings of their names, they say the name. If I'm reading a story from another language I don't want an Anglicized version of any name. It gets in the way of the immersion.
Sad that it doesn't seem like the translators care about your review
They don't. I gave very detailed and extensive feedback and their response was that they aren't going to change anything about the names.
Deathblade 😔
I agree with you. But I do have to say, I like how Voiling dragon had names that made sense to western readers. We had George, Alice, Beirut, etc.
That's because the characters in Coiling Dragon had western names in the original novel, not Chinese names.
I once bought a compilation of the "Romance of the Three Kingdoms" translation. But the translator used Wade-Giles system instead of the currently more common and popular pinyin system. And it totally throw be off. I watched the movies and Tv-Series with subtitles and played games so I was used to the characters names. But with Wade-Giles system, Cao Cao became Ts'ao Ts'ao, Sun Quan turn into Sun Ch‘üan, Xiahou Dun -> Hsiahou Tun, Zhuge Liang -> Chuko Liang, etc. It was unreadable.
That's because that translation was made earlier, when Wade-Giles was the norm.
There's really only two major English translations. If yours was Wade-Giles, it's likely that you read Brewitt-Taylor's. And he used Wade-Giles because, well, pinyin literally didn't exist yet. It wasn't created until decades after his death. The more recent (relatively) translation by Moss Roberts uses pinyin for names. Both version have their pros and cons. Robert's uses the more familiar romanization system and contains tons of notes, explanations on culture, geography, etc. But the language is a little dry. Brewitt-Taylor uses Wade-Giles---which I agree, it's awful--but his English prose flows way better. Good news is that since the CBT translation is public domain, you can find a free version online (also with extensive scholarly notes) that has updated all the names to pinyin.
It has been translated to Myanmar like 20 years ago. It is still one the greatest novel till now. It is like an essential curriculum for all wuxia and xinxia readers from Myanmar. I tried to read English version but it doesn't completely catch the essence of the original version.
Oh noooo, I pre-ordered it
I hate localization where they remove the setting or culture.
I like when novels explain some concepts of the language that can't be properly translated, like the honorifics of japanese. I also like when novels show the original characters of the character's name, its pronunciation, and its translation when it's relevant, just for memory or curiosity's sake, but then keep their name it in its original language afterwards.
gods yeah the honorifics! !! I hate english's lack of decency when addressing non family members. I feel like I'm being rude for no reason. In romanian we have 3 levels of courtesy plus an archaic version of the courtesy system used in remote rural areas. I hate not having that when I express myself, it can be so versatile in communication.
泽东 means: to the east of the pond, not eastern moisture :) Great video, though.
Good point. Maybe if they really wanted to, they could put literal meanings in parentheses or a sidebar, or have an appendix of them in the back of the book, since they may be interesting factoids, but not essential to the story. Using them in the story does make them sound like silly superhero names. I never really thought about this, but I wonder if Native Americans feel this way when people translate their names.
So I started reading Holmwoods translated version. Naturally, I wouldn't know a good translation from a bad one since I don't speak Yong's language, otherwise I would probably also be, WTF? HOWEVER, from what I understand, Yong's book wasn't an easy translation to do. Its frustrating because people are easy to point out the "issues" BUT if this book is such a bad translation, can y'all point me to a book that is more faithful to the culture and language? Of all the translations out there, which is the good one? I'm willing to read this in Spanish if its out there too...thanks :D. Also, I noticed that part 2 is being translated by someone else. I quite agree about name changes as I don't see what the big deal is about keeping the original names. Dumb. Give me a little explanation about what their names might mean if you will, but keep their original ones. I'm not stupid. I can keep up.
Here is a link to the fan translation which will be poorer in terms of English, but better in terms of accuracy. www.spcnet.tv/forums/showthread.php/11465-LOCH-unabridged#.XdmPAehKguU
There are other problems with the Holmwood translation which I don't get into in this video. I never did get around to fully reading it to do a review. You might want to check out another translator who did do a review though: etvolare.com/review-of-a-hero-born-some-thoughts-on-wuxia-translation/
Ugh. I agree. I dislike the whole name translation thing and before you even mentioned the issue that was the first one that came to mind.
I think if people like the book and culture they will put in the effort....catering like this to other cultures does harm. I met chinese people in USA and they just could never be bothered to teach me their names and just said they are Daisy or Bob. Well then don't complain westerners can't say chinese names. When I met them I told them my turkish name, helped them pronounce it and told them what it means... so they called me a bastardized version of it, that sounded like another unrelated french name...but hey, it was a lot closer than Bob.
Totally agree, such a strange choice to translate the names.
And I don't like that they put family name after given name
I think it could be better if the translators retain the sound of the characters' names, and just add an explanatory after it first occurs, like Yang Guo (in Chinese 杨过, which hints at the mortal sins his father had committed and also an admonition to him)
你好，DeathBlade！我觉得你应该能看得懂中文，所以就直接用中文跟你交流了。我可以举一些更强有力的例子来佐证你的观点。古人除了名还有字。一些人的名与字的意思是相同或相近的，但是也有很多人的名与字意思是相反的，比如：
曾点，名点，字皙。《说文解字》：点，小黑也；皙，人色白也。
韩愈，字退之。“愈”与“退”意义相反。
晏殊,字同叔。“殊”与“同”意义相反。
王之涣,或作王之奂,字季凌。
涣：消，散，冰融化。凌：冰。
朱熹，名熹，字元晦。熹，明亮；晦，昏暗。
顾炎武，名炎武，字宁人。武，泛指干戈之事。宁人，使人们相安无事。
乐进字文谦，进有进取之意，而谦有知足之意
于禁字文则，禁为禁止，则有效法之意
贾诩字文和，诩为夸口、夸张，而和为适中、恰当
司马懿字仲达，懿表示悲痛感叹的语气，通“噫”，而达为达观，不为喜怒哀乐所影响
徐庶字元直，庶有旁支的意思，而直为直落、不间隔、不弯曲的
徐盛字文向，盛为大规模的，而向是偏于一面的
甘宁字兴霸，宁与兴意思相反
邓艾字士载，艾是停止，而载则动，一动一静
钟会字士季，会是短时间，而季为长时间
吕蒙字子明，蒙与明意思相反，蒙为不明
刘禅字公嗣，禅位与嗣位，一退让一继承
关兴字安国，兴与安意思相反
马良字季常，良为良好，常为普通
曹休字文烈，休与烈相反
曹彰字子文，彰为明显、显著，文为温和、不显著
夏侯惇字元让，惇有推崇的意思，而让有谴责的意思
曹洪字子廉，洪水多混浊，而廉则有清之意
吕布字奉先，布向下而奉向上，另布向大众而奉向少数
诸葛诞字公休，诞为开始，休为结局。
总结：所以如果按照字面意思进行翻译，那么他/她的名与字是完全相反的意义，只会让英语读者更加糊涂了。
这些我都看不懂
😁👍thanks for letting us know
That's a low blow. Most people would just sound pompous but still fine, however then you'd get the occasional unfortunate soul whose name is donkey or something.
No, honestly a big no. I myself included don't think that's how it really works in real life. For some reason even though many of the name's used now how a meaning behind them but you don't see people using the meaning of name but a name when addressing someone else with a name from different cultures. I for example would probably get so annoyed that I would beat the shit out of anyone who kept calling to me "Hey conqueror wanna go grab a drink or two?" or "Hey conqueror what do you think about the crypto crash?". No, I will stick with Victor, and that's why I don't want names translated to English be it from asian, slav, or other cultures.
it took a while for me to understand who is this lotus huang...
Well dealing with the names, the pokimon path or the DBZ: With chinese names there are meanings like A Will Eternal's Mc's name is pure irony as compared to his real self. With DBZ the names of the characters have puns on them which are cool.
Great opinions. I agree with you and really like this video. It made me laugh LOL. What do you think about the translations of those Kung Fu terms? Such as 九阴白骨爪, etc. Would you do it differently?
I think that when it comes to those things, sometimes the translations are fairly obvious and should be translated accordingly. Other times there is a lot of room for translator preference.
Can you please recommend other sources for English translations of wuxia novels please?
How did you get into translation? Does it require any kind of accredited education?
Lotus is not a terrible translation of huong rong. Huong means yellow, rong means core or melt. I never thought of it as lotus but if u think about yellow core, you think of the yellow pollen of a flower. That is where the progression is from. Jin yong(rong). It means gold melt, or core. There should have the name and the appendix of what the name means. The names has meaning like yang gou, deers past, he was named that to not forget his past. Gou jing, means peaceful country, he was named that for reason, his character lives to protect his country.
So... if they translated her name to Lotus Huang, what does Guo Jing call her? Little Lotus instead of Rong'er?
I find this impulse really strange in Chinese novels. I don't see this done with Japanese names, which almost always have kanji which could also be translated like this, rather than turned into their phonetic equivalent.
According to wikipedia, in Edward Seidensticker's translation of The Tale of Genji, Murasaki is called "Lavender". Honestly even as a Chinese reader of the story, Murasaki is Murasaki to me, not Lavender. In both Huang Rong's and Murasaki's case, it would have been a lot better if the translator use her real name and ( ) the nick name instead.
@@connielam3629 While Seidensticker isn't necessarily my favorite translation of Genji, you have to admit, Murasaki also isn't really her name when it comes down to it. She's referred to as "The Lady of the West Wing" and Murasaki itself is a nickname translators and commentators gave to improve readability. If anything, this is an argument to me in favor of changing the names since it seems to work better so long as you get used to the adaptation before the original.
In my experience people may be indifferent to chinese culture and so and such, but one thing everyone easily agrees on (although not said directly) is that chinese names are very cool sounding names or very different/weird/mysterious in their ways.
As someone who hasn't read it I don't think Lotus Wang sounds bad per se (though the original does sound better), but hearing you say that only some were changed at random, if that's true then I completely agree that it's a horrible mistake.
I wonder what your take on translating family titles, such as 哥哥，姐姐，妹妹，弟弟 is?
I agreed. I'm very annoyed to the point that I skipped the part of the translated name and just read the rest. it saved me a lot of time to ..... novels.
Lotus Huang???? Sounds like a cheap villain in comic books.
George Bush will get the Chinese name 农树. "George" means farmer or earthworker. I think 农 is a good fit. "Bush" means a small tree. The small part is the modifier, but it is essentially a tree. So, 树 is a good fit. LOL.
I think regardless if there trying to bring in new people into the wuxia/xianxia or chinese community in general, directly translating chinese names is a horrible idea for example one story im reading the mc name is Duan Ling Tian according to the translator in english it would be something like soaring the heavens, if that was the first time i read a chinese novel i would stop reading it due to how silly the mc's name would sound let alone how the rest of the novel would be like
Yo deathblade bie xio is fin HILARIOUS i laufhed the first 100 chapters or so.
Lol so much for proper grammer
特地从b站过来看原视频，非常喜欢你的视频
I agree with with the name translation problem but I feel you are still slightly biased. Still like your translations though.
I personally don't mind the change of names to a more 'relatable' name especially if the pronunciation is tricky. To this day even though I know better when I see the name Xuan I think "Juan" and I don't mind a bunch of Little Faerie, Iron fist, Demon fang, Dragon this or that.. but Qingyue, Qinghua and Weixiong, can be an obstacle to new readers. As to the oldschool readers that might be perturbed in changing the names I get what you are saying but by far the focus has to be in bringing in new readers that have never given it a try. A big explosion of new readers is good for everyone and the future of novels
"Lotus Huang" LOL
Mei CaoFeng = Cyclone Mei... OMG................................
The problem with translating Chinese characters to single English words is because Chinese characters can have many different meanings and nuances, and the corresponding English words could have very different meanings and nuances.
From my experience most words will have that, it's not just a chinese or japanese problem...they don't translate Jesus or Maria, I see no reason they should translate other foreign names. People can remember Huang and Lee and Wu especially if they read it over and over....like they learned the difference between Robert and Richard.
I'm all for more easily recognizable names; however it has to be done right and if it's not, it can make the entire work seem cheap and low quality.
The thing with novels is that nobody pronounces words, we just want to be able to recognize them (which the condor trilogy easily does).
Db, the name change is probably their main selling point. You care too much, you should just sit back and watch them fail. Though because of the cultural differences, the company should really have some native English speakers read and provide feedback before publishing large scale
I think their main selling point is to try to compare the novel to Lord of the Rings. Other than that they don't seem to be doing much in the way of trying to market it to the existing audience or a new one.
Having read this version of the condor heroes multiple times (it is the only version I can read lying down in bed,) I still have the same problems with it. I hate the translated names. They're just awful. Mercy Mu, Charity Bao... For fuck's sake, Yang Guo's name is translated something like "prosper atone" or some BS. It's a pantomime. Count Seven Hong? Why not just say Hong the Seventh? Why not say Hong Qigong? Any of those sound better than Count Seven Hong. It's insulting to translate every name literally when the meaning of the name is only rarely important to the story, and could have been explained with parentheses.
Sun wukong is his name and they just call him monkey feel so weird
Bronze Saber also better than “Awakening to the Void Sun” 😂
i agree with your point of view and as a preference i would like the names unchanged, but i have 2 problems with your argument.
1. why would chinese people buy an english translated book, would they not by the original version?
2. i think your being a hypocrite because you changed bruisers name in a will eternal.
As I already explained many, many times, "Bruiser" is a pet/nickname. It's not a surname/given name combination. And just in case you didn't know, there are a lot of Chinese people in the world who speak Chinese but don't read it.
@Josh Juniel Because a large part of the Chinese diaspora may not be proficient enough in Chinese to read the original Jin Yong novels. However, they may have fallen in love with the characters already through various other formats like the numerous television adaptations (whether they be from HK, Taiwan, China) over the decades.
I would like to add my two cents. I am a Cantonese speaker raised in Canada and I grew up watching the 1983 TV Cantonese adaptation of this novel. I think I have watched it about 10 times. This is to provide some context to my comments. I recently found out about translated novel as I cannot read Chinese well, despite 2.5 hours of Chinese school every Saturday for nine years. When I read Mandarin names, my eyes see a bunch of letters and not a name. When it is spelled out from the Cantonese sound, this does not happen, perhaps because my mind turns the letters into a word. And while I wholeheartedly agree with your video about the weirdness of translating a name, I think that it makes it easier to read for readers who are new to the language. If that's the target audience, translating names is the right move. Reading Lotus will definitely make me cringe, but I think it will be an easier read for me. Thanks for your video!
I'm a Chinese person from an anglophone family and the idea of introducing myself by a literal translation of my name sounds completely idiotic. Doing that makes it sound like bad fiction written by westerners who don't know anything about Chinese culture (looking at you, Orson Scott Card....)
good point .sir.
I personally have never read the original, I don't know the names of the characters. I think the grips are really fans who will complain. I get the argument though. I agree with you but as someone ignorant about it I will take as is; if I read it because I don't know any better.
insightful (video and comments), thanks
It's better to learn Chinese if someone don't want to miss some detail of not-translated-version. for example 张无忌 the literal means with no taboo but the readers all know that he is the most sttuggled man in this book, and JinYong must deliberately used 无忌 to name it, in this case, whether translate by literal or by meaning will lose some intension of the novel.
Historically, people did translate names. Felipe would be translated into Phillip. Isabel would be translated into Elizabeth or Isabella. But these are all Indo-European names, esp. on the European branch of the Indo-European family tree. Scientists especially translated their regional names into Latin. That's how we come to know of great scientists such as Copernicus, not Mikołaj Kopernik.
No they didnt, Phillip and Felipe are both names. Theyre not words youre going to find in the dicitonary of a language. So nothing was translated. The pronounciation was changed. Which would be like changing "rong" to "ronge" or something, but thats not what the translator did.
That's localization not translation. And they still do it more or less on purpose. Like my name is turkish, Deniz, but people often mistake it for Denis when writing it...one means sea the other is french for Dionisus the god of wine.
Are there any condor birds in China anyways?
The character in question is 雕 which should be eagle. Many, many years ago a translator picked condor because the bird in the story is huge. And no, condors are Western Hemisphere birds. There is a California condor which I’m very familiar with being from San Diego, and the Andean condor from down south.
@@Deathblade Nice info man, so good to learn!
I more or less agree with deathblade here, but it seems a little unprofessional to so openly criticize a peer.
yeah, but if nobody ever says anything no change will come...and he's very polite by american standards I think XD guess you can always be even more polite...can't hurt.
I'm Chinese and also a translator. I'd like to give my personal opinion regarding your video.
1. Perhaps you happen to know many people who already know Jin Yong's works or his characters' names. That might be true among fans of Chinese culture (but are they the target reader of this version?). However, from my own experience (I've lived in different countries for years and know quite a few non-Chinese speakers), I don't know anyone who has ever heard of Jin Yong. But that's your "impression" against mine. Without an objective and fair survey, none of us is in a good place to make a conclusion for everyone.
2. Whether one should (ever) translate Chinese names is a choice, not a rule like you said: "people just don't translate Chinese names". In many cases, a translator may opt for translation or partial translation rather than 100% transliteration, depending on what he or she is trying to attain. Reading a translated novel full of unfamiliar, unpronounceable and unmemorable names that have no sense can be frustrating for some, if not for all. If the translation is well done, it won't sounds too odd or silly for an English reader.
3. Silly may be your opinion towards these translated names since you already have a very profound understanding of the Chinese language and culture. Nevertheless, they may still sound cool to others. Jin Yong's novel is suitable for all ages, but most of us read it between 10 and 22 years old. We grow up with it. It is part of our childhood and teen years, and it seemed so cool. A party translated name might convey the same "coolness" to the English readers of the same age group.
4. I find it slightly unfair to give out a comment without even finishing the book.
As you said, dealing with Chinese names is no easy task. For whatever reason the publisher has chosen to use translation rather than transliteration, I hope they can achieve their goals.
I also understand your concern and your points. But please, when expressing your opinions, please try not to represent everyone.
Finally, I feel very very happy to see people like you who are enthusiastic about our culture and try your best to help spread it out. A big THANK YOU.
1. Yes, there are many people who are fans of Jin Yong. There are facebook groups, forums, clubs, etc. with many, many fans.
2. I know.
3. As I said in the video, I know that they will sound cool to the readers. That doesn't make it the best choice though.
4. If the publisher hands out review copies for people to review and then talk about publicly, why would it be unfair to comment? That's actually the whole point of distributing review copies. I'm not the only person who was given a review copy, many others were as well.
I never tried to represent everyone. Where did I do that?
I hope the translator should at least keep Huang Rong's name. Huang Rong is not that difficult to pronounce, just like Guo Jin. She is now officially Lotus Huang forever. Honestly in the translation, the translator added the script as "Guo Jin doesn't know what Lotus is" (so he cannot understand Lotus Huang is actually female). To English reader who cannot link the word "Rong" to Lotus anyway, calling Lotus is no different from Rose/Daisy/Daffodil. You can replace her name with anything in the script, and it will work because Guo Jin doesn't know what this "anything" is anyway, according to the translator. The beloved Huang Rong has disappeared. Her name Rong is what makes her unique.
Also, some characters have their last name first and others don't. It is this inconsistency that makes it really funny. If Huang Rong is Lotus Hunag, then why not Guo Jin become Concord (meaning peaceful) Guo？
If it is such a good idea to translate names, the name printed on the cover 'JIN YONG' also doesn't mean anything to English readers. JIN means gold and Yong means ordinary. Do you agree to call him Mr. "Golden Commoner" or Mr. "Ordinary Gold"? So he may sound cooler to the translation's target teenage reader and give meanings to his name? It is even easier to remember for them. But you think Mr. JIN YONG would be happy to see his name translated and printed on the cover like that?
There is a reason why translating names is not preferred. It is disrespectful, even to the characters. If the translator is translating other pieces, maybe yes, perhaps she could freely do so as she like. But this is JIN YONG, not Ordinary Gold. It should be treated with utmost carefulness and respect. At least please keep the consistency?
Is there really no other ways to explain the meaning of the names other than changing it completely?! Could it not be a side note? This is a sincere question. Changing her name just seem to be the quick and easy way out, but not respectful enough to such a character whom Mr. Jin had so lively created.
💚
amazing
WHO THE HELL IS LOTUS?
that why they should just pay some1 who into the genre to translate it and not some idiot who just want to westernize it. this happen in video game a lot too. everytime they bring a chinese or korean game over and decide to westernize the game, it totally ruin the game. nowadays i stay away from anything port of game or novel that is westernize. if i want ot play a western game or read a western novel, ill get one, if i searching for a estern game or a eastern novel for god sake, i want a eastern game/novel.
黃蓉，蓉是一種花，芙蓉，不是蓮花吧！
You do have a point, and I'm not going to take that away from you. They part where you may want to reexamine your opinion, though, is where you describe it as a "BIG problem" and say that the publishers are turning people off of the books. Absolutely no one of consequence will be turned off of reading these novels. It's okay to mention it as a pet peeve, but you're making this into a much bigger issue than it really is. Actually, it comes across as petty. You do have a valid point about the inconsistency.
I've mentioned the translated names to some people here, and they have no problems with it being changed. It's their own culture, and they're not offended. It seems strange that a foreigner would be offended on their behalf.
Also, it does happen that a screenwriter will change a character's name in the book when making it into a movie. I've yet to see someone boycott the movie because of this issue.
I also hope that, when moving to China, you chose a 100% phonetic rendition of your English name when deciding what name to use on your local ID.
It's so difficult to read due to these names are all wrong. HAHAHAHAHAHA...
Your critisms of huang rong is off also, huang rong is her name in Mandarin. As a cantonese speaker its wong yong. So when you say huang rong is definitive it dismisses cantonese and hong kong, while loch was first published in the HONG KONG chinese newspaper. The meaning is important yr dismissing of the meaning of the names dismisses chinese culture, cantonese culture and hong kong culture. When subtitled hong kong tvb serials of condor heroes is what made it famous in asia in the first place.
It would also be pronounced differently in Sichuanese, Hakka, Minnan, Shanghainese, or any of the other countless dialects.
@@Deathblade sure but that point is irrelevant and doesn't make what I'm saying irrelevant. The names go with the story and plotline and adds to the LORE. Gou jing should be Gaw Jing cantonese as it SHOULD be in english. Like why are you using mandarin instead of cantonese when this is a product of hong kong culture thats such a PRC crushing cantonese and hong kong political move. All chinese know Andy Lau is the most famous legendary chinese actor and his first role ever was yang gou or YEUNG GAW. Those 80s tv series are classic and were the first on dvd with eng subs for mass consumption avail on amazon. In the plot GAW JING aka peaceful nation has a strong sense of nationalism that his people should not be invaded and be asks Mongolian leaders for peace. He reminds Yeung gaw Aka GOATS PAST he was named that as to not forget and repeat the sins and mistakes of the past, his fathers. Greatest Of All Time as yeung gaw was the strongest in the end. Shao long nui or SEW LONG LOY, little dragon girl. She is icy, enjoys lives solitary in caves, or tombs filled with treasure, she IS a dragon girl. Hong qi gong or hong chut gong in cantonese, meaning red seven elder. He says in the story, he doesn't care if he is number 1 in the world he is happy being number 7. This is all part of the LORE and when you dismiss name meanings this lore becomes lost in translation. Etymology shouldn't be ignored or diminished as one of the points of this story is to preserve chinese culture. Again thats foreingers not respecting/ misunderstanding chinese culture and its uniqueness. when chinese people meet each other they do ask what character it is to know the meaning of their name. They should use cantonese imho but pronounce however in english, but have an appendix for what the names mean, like how lord of the rings had an appendix for elfish.