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Another interesting thing to note this week on January 15 1943 is that the world’s largest office building, *the Pentagon* , is completed in Arlington, Virginia. With a size of about 6.5 million square feet of floor space, it will eventually house thousands of military and civilian employees as the headquarters of the United States Department of War (now Department of Defense).
@@pnutz_2 US facilities to my knowledge are not required to comply with local codes; the US military has been segregated since the Great War (Wilson very intentionally segregated it)
Hungarian here, fun fact, the Disaster at Voronezh was actually the biggest Hungarian military defeat in history, maybe not by consequence but by sheer loss it was much bigger than Mohi and Mohacs combined. Yet it’s only a footnote in the ever growing human disaster that is WW2 Luckily enough, My great grandad was saved from being sent there because he was his CO’s best friend.
@@vaclav_fejt Mohács was a great victory for the Ottomans which allowed them to conquer large parts of Hungary so I wouldn't exactly call it Hungarian victory.
De Mohács a kifejezés ... for those unfamiliar with what I mean, Mohács is proverbial in Hungarian, it's a more meaningful way of saying 'It could be worse' :-)
Reason I like this channel so much is its so similar to a book series I have of newspaper clippings from the war. The book series was only about 8,500 pages, so this one is easier to read while driving down the road
Fortunately for the Allies the soft underbelly of Europe can be overrun quite easily due to the excellent waterways, road and rail networks, and flat terrain of Italy (said nobody in his right mind).
@@merdiolu The terrain is pretty ideal for defense, though, as events would prove. The Allies should have stopped once Foggia was secured and out of artillery range and used air power to isolate the German garrison, which would have allowed the Allies to transfer troops for at least the invasion of southern France.
@@artemiostheelder Does that work for "Great Onions", though? I mean, "luk" is the word for onions, but when you want to count them, you speak of "lukovitsy".
An interesting footnote this week on January 11 1943 is that the United States and the United Kingdom will revise the unequal treaties that were imposed on the Qing dynasty during the 19th century and its successor, the Republic of China (ROC). They will renounce extraterritoriality privileges they enjoyed for decades, and this also meant that British and American enclaves in Mainland China like the Shanghai International Settlement will be transferred back to Chinese control after the war. Boards and signs saying “The Gardens are reserved for the Foreign Community” in Huangpu Park would also become a thing of the past.
Oh boy the start of the Italian campaign one of the most hotly contested of all the offensives And one of the heaviliest debated about whether or not it was useful Can't wait for this a lot of high school drama in it good show guys always loving it
I reckon there was some merit in taking Southern Italy, as it helped re-open the Mediterranean for Allied shipping, gave the Allies another base to operate another strategic bombing air force from, it allowed them to properly supply and support Tito's partisans in Yugoslavia and it did draw in some crucial German elite divisions that were needed on the Eastern Front the most. The only question is was there any merit left to this campaign after D-Day? Especially for the manpower strapped British whose operations in Western Europe and Greece ended up sucking division after division from this theater.
@@chaptermasterpedrokantor1623 there's an argument that it could have been considered a (more) worthwhile campaign if Clark hadn't gone for Rome and instead cut off the Germans before they could finish their retreat from the (I don't recall, Siegfried?) Line as had been planned.
But Sicily was not really deemed an Italian Campaign. At the time, it was pitched simply as an island campaign to clear the path to India. Most of Brooke's ship savings came from the drastic reduction in transit distance from Liverpool to Mumbai. Italy didn't automatically follow. Patton's 7th Army was ultimately deflected from its (American) objective of southern France -- to southern Italy. It's notable that the divisions stayed the same -- but now they were under 5th Army and a new general: Clark. But this was resisted, until the Sicilian Campaign showed just how tough fighting the Krauts still was. Even but a few Kraut divisions were enough to throttle American desires. One of the reasons Patton was so obsessed with winning fast in Sicily was that he hoped to be then vectored on to southern France. It soon proved a vain hope. The chiefs looked at the cluster that Husky was -- and France was 'tabled.'
It's not all that far fetched when you consider how rapidly the West's expanding capabilities were after the US joined. I personally think that a 1943 Op Roundup would have likely succeeded but the cost would have been much, much higher, possibly leading to political changes.
The trouble is there's also the higher risk of disaster. The worst-case-scenario for the Allies isn't a failed landing in France (that would be painful, but the number of losses wouldn't actually be *that* high in the grand scheme of things, and they could try again later) but a successful landing that doesn't put a strong enough army ashore. If things go wrong it could lead to those ~25 Allied divisions getting quickly surrounded by much larger forces and destroyed in France, which is a Stalingrad-scale catastrophe.
@@imperium3556 But it wouldn't change anything in the long run not materially. As long as the Soviets keep fighting the Allies are going to win no matter what happens in France in 1943
@@specialnewb9821 Probably, but there's also no telling what a Stalingrad like disaster would have done foe the Morale of the people in the US and even more so the UK. Could have lead to loud screams for peace. Whether that would have mattered is of course a different story.
@@imperium3556 This is the point. In spring 1943 the allies could probably have got the troops in Britain ashore in France, though in spring 1943 there was enough Luftwaffe to make that costly. But that would just result in all those troops facing another Dunkirk in summer 1943. Italy proved to be less useful than expected but it was still a better option than that.
@@aldreymenezes7652 If I was a soldier at the time and had my choice between the three, I'd choose the desert. I can deal with sand and heat. I struggle with humidity... and I just can't stand the cold. I would be useless in temps below about 20° Farenheit (or -7° Celcius).
@@AbbeyRoadkill1 personally I enjoy the cold, but if I were conscripted, then honestly, I would probably just resort to injuring myself to avoid being near frontlines.
On Thursday, January 14, 1943, Major Ioannis Tsigantes, the younger brother of Colonel Christodoulos Tsigantes (CO of the Greek Sacred Band), was compromised and was killed in a skirmish with Italian Carabinieri who stormed his hideout in down-town Athens, Greece. Maj. Tsigantes killed two Carabinieri and wounded three more, but he eventually succumbed to the storming Italians. Maj. Tsigantes was the leader of the resistance group "Midas 614" and carried out acts of sabotage and espionage to disrupt the German war effort. Tsigantes was 46 yo and posthumously was promoted to the rank of Lieutenant-Colonel.
My grandfather was a member of the Royal Hungarian Army, and was also at the Don when the main soviet attack happened on the 14th. The soviets had such an overwhelming numerical superiority that the front collapsed that day. Thousands of hungarians threw away their weapons, left their equipment behind and fled westward, despite the threats of officers that they will shoot down anyone who dares to desert. The first attacks actually happened on the 12th, but the major attack occurred on the 14th. Since the hungarians were under heavy attack, and had to retreat they couldn't eat or sleep properly for 2 days. It's also worth noting that the winter of 1942/43 was brutally cold, -40 degrees Celsius (same in Fahrenheit), and that the snow was hip deep. So after two days of not eating nor sleeping many hungarians couldn't keep on moving and froze to death while they stopped to rest. My grandfather befriended a guy on the front who was from the same region of the country where he was from. When they fled, the guy couldn't keep up, and squatted down to rest, telling my old man to leave him behind. Grandpa don't wanted to leave him behind, so after he failed to talk sense to him, he kicked him around in the snow a few times to make him angry enough to stand up. Anyone reading this will at this point probably think that my granddad was an animal. I have two things to say about that: One, my old man was a pig farmer, not a motivational coach, he wasn't good with words. And two, you have never seen war from up close, and you definitely didn't see the Eastern Front of WW2, injustice and inhumanity was everywhere around them. So after convincing his mate to keep on moving they found barn where they were able to rest for a day, and both survived the war. Ater the war my grandfather and his friend met a few times and he thanked my grand multiple times for not leaving him behind on the soviet snowfields. Edit: Forgot to mention that he was 16 years of age when he lived through all this.
One has to imagine that, as depressing as the thought of the Soviets beating the Germans was for guys like your grandfather, I have to imagine it was better than freezing to death somewhere far from home.
Awesome story. Too many war stories I hear on the internet posted by children/grandchildren are stereotypical. I am sure it is not easy for him to admit he ran away, but I would do the same damn thing.
I got part of the family story of a Russian friend a long time ago. He, Aleksandr, was from Moscow, but his dad was originally from Leningrad. So how did he end up in Moscow? He, the dad, was 14 and living in Leningrad when the Germans arrived and encircled the city in 1941. As he was only 14, he only got a child's ration of food, which was totally not enough for a teenager. And he was too young to join the army, where he would have gotten a larger ration, otherwise he would have joined just to get the food ration. Well, not just because of the food ration, but he wanted that one as well. So he instead volunteered as a factory worker, making weapons. This way he got an armaments factory worker's ration of food, which was almost the same as a fighting soldier's ration. But even that was something totally pitiful. I think it was like half a loaf of bread a day, and nothing else. Leningrad was encircled, and it was very hard to get food into the city. The only way was by ship across Lake Ladoga, or by truck when the lake froze. But since he had younger siblings at home who only got the children's ration, he took his daily half loaf of bread home and shared it with them, and with his parents. After a few months of this, he collapsed from starvation, and went into a coma. Apparently he was evacuated, still in a coma, on a flatbed truck driving across the waterlogged ice of Lake Ladoga in the spring of 1942, under German air attack and artillery shelling, and he later came to in a hospital in Moscow. And he couldn't return to his family in Leningrad, so he settled in Moscow instead, on his own. He was a grown up now, after all, fifteen years old, and an experienced factory worker. It was only after the war ended that he could meet his family, that is those of them who had survived the siege of Leningrad. And this was why Aleksandr was from Moscow, not Leningrad. He had this thing about absolutely not wasting food, and he told this story once when the rest of us mocked him for being the way he was.
@Niinsa62 Thank you for watching, and thanks very much for sharing his story. Seeing the humanity in someone else's perspective like that can forever alter and deepen our capacity for empathy. We must always take care of each other, and it's only through compassion and understanding that we can achieve strength. Never forget.
My great great Uncle Cleston Stover took part in the last Guadalcanal Offensive. He was in the 2nd Marine Division, 6th Regiment and took part in the fighting as the marines drove up the coast. It's incredible to hear about the broader battle and imagine what he must've seen. Thank you so much for these videos!
@HalfmanTheHand Thank you for sharing that part of your family's history. Amazing to hear from the families of the soldiers themselves, so many years later as we examine this chaotic war. Thanks for joining us and stay tuned for more episodes every week
It's interesting that "Death Corridor" has a second name, a "Road of Victory". Kinda show how a path to victory lies through a valley of death in WW2 if you think about it.
I feel its also important to note that memories of Verdun, the Somme and the relatively recent defeat at Dunkirk gave the British hemorrhoids just thinking about another ground campaign in France, for fears of a meat grinding stalemate would ensue. Funny enough the rough and narrow terrain of Italy turned into the dead locked meat grinder the British feared.
At Casablance a British general actually said to Marshall "Its no good pushing us to invade early - you are fighting our memories of the Somme" (quite literally because many senior British generals would actually have been junior officers there).
I applaud the the attention payed to “ the big picture “ , the geopolitical landscape of allies and adversaries that accompany the emotional experience of warfare .Good show !
Yeah - I think there's a rule with film making that you don't include anything in shot that will consistently take attention away from your main subject.
Be honest Indy, your primary motivation for doing this whole project was simply so you could use that "No way, Jose" gag! Edited to add: I didn’t mean I didn’t like it 😂
I have a feeling, that the battle at Velikie Luki will be overshadowed by Stalingrad later when historians write the history of the Eastern Front. Don't know why, just have this feeling...
The number of surrounded troops is much larger at Stalingrad than Velikie Lukie. More importantly, Stalingrad is on the only major transport route between central Russia and the Black Sea and Caucasus (the Volga). So yes, if Germany ends up beaten it is like;ly that Stalingrad, not Velikie Luki, will be seen as a turning point.
The Red Army was smart to attack where the Axis front was the weakest in the Hungarian, Romanian and Italian sectors. Too bad they did not reach Rostov fast and apply the biggest decisive defeat to the Axis.
The Reds are still short of trucks. The rail grid/nexus still goes through Stalingrad. And the weather is foul. BUT, Italy, Romania, Hungary are all removed from the Ostheer allied OB. Finland is permanently chilled out.
I’ve thought about what would happen if the resources used for Ostrogozhsk-Rossosh and Voronezh-Kastornoye operations would be deployed in a drive on Rostov. And I still can’t figure out the answer. I think it’s one of the biggest questions in military history.
This episode made me dig deeper about "War path" of my great-grandfather's brother and I found that he most likely shared the sky with the Night Witches this week in the Caucasus Offensive under the command of the 4th Air Force Army. Sad thing that he never talked about the war with his niece (my grandmother) and all we have about him is dry reports about his dive bomber regiment participating in certain battles, but it's still interesting to follow his "war path" with your series so thank you again for your work!
hey guys, why do you blame Stalin for all the military failures of the USSR. The army was not ready for war, regardless of whether it had officers from the tsarist army or not. The army did not conduct any defensive exercises before the war. The army did not request any things like radio stations or airplanes before the war. It is necessary to blame the people who are responsible for the preparation of the army in the 30s. Moreover, despite the gulags and executions, Stalin carried out industrialization in a short period and turned a country where only grain was grown for export into a huge factory. This is what played the main role in the victory. BUT IF NOT FOR STALIN, THE USSR WOULD HAVE WON EARLIER, OF COURSE. delusion.
@@redcat4189 Stalin's paranoic purges left the army mostly in the hands of incompitent loyalists. Resulting in for example the technologically more adcanced and overall larger military to be humiliated in winter war. Stalin also continuously denied his officers requests for tactical retreat in the face of overwhealming Axis force which lead to encirclement, destruction and capture of hundreds of thousands of soviet soldiers and equipment in the Kiev pocket alone. One of the encircled officers was Nikita Khrustchev who later blamed Stalin personally for a lot of the soviet military blunders after the war. And about the industrialization, Stalin authorized the use gulag prisiners as basically slaves in horrible working conditions and exported wheet even during the horrible Holodomor famine. Soviet union was industrilized but at a horrible cost for the people.
Despite how horrible the conditions are for 6th Army, fighting on made a lot sense from a military perspective. If 6th army surrenderd, the soviet troops fighting the Stalingrad pocket then for example could be used to crush what is left of the German army in the Caucasus.
If you read Manstein's memoir that's pretty much the argument he made. Its actually a miracle the German Eastern Front didn't collapse in both the winter of 1941-42 AND 42-43 (I won't mention Cherkassy and 44).
@@dongately2817 I always viewed Mannstein as the reallife version of Grandadmiral Thrawn (he is a very fascinating Star Wars character), this guy was a real military genius and saved the German army countless times.
@@thanos_6.0 - He gets a lot of flak nowadays for his memoir being self-serving and blaming Hitler for every defeat. It wasn’t Manstein’s decision to invade the Soviet Union. He was given a (nearly impossible) task and told to do his duty. I’m sure he deflected some blame but his fighting retreat in 43-44 should be seen for it’s merits. The brutality and war crimes, on both sides but initiated by the Germans, seem to cloud people’s judgement and prevent them from viewing the Eastern Front from an unbiased, purely military perspective. Having said that - it’s my belief that the only way the Nazis could have defeated the Soviet Union would have been for them to behave as liberators of the Soviet people, instead of genocidal conquerors.
@@dongately2817 I wonder what was the reasons they didn't pose themselves as liberators. I can imagine lots Soviets would cooperate. There must be lots of people not happy about how Soviets runs the country.
thank you once again for making my Saturday morning, I have never come across any history that brings the war to life like you guys do, you get to see the war as a whole and not focused on particular sections, much like someone actually living through it, and thank you for once again making this a personal talk from Indy just for me, without any distractions of folks scribbling pointlessly in the background, I am sure those interns are vital cogs in the machine that produces the show but on screen they are just a distraction.
4:57 Oh cool, is that a Gewehr 41 I wonder? I think so! Still working on reverse-engineering the SVT-40 gas piston system I suppose, that 'Bang' gas system apparently never did work particularly well.
The Hell of Stalingrad was such that i do not wish it upon my worst enemy. And Russians too suffered immensily even now, as they saw their comrades, friends and maybe even relatives die by thousends in the cold uncaring freezing snow and ice, just as winter made frozen statues out of the corpses of so many nationalities the had to walk and drive over. At some point drugding trough the snow and ice it did not matter whose side you were on. For only frostbite and death were everyday companions.
The Hungarians (and Romanians) pay dearly for cooperating with the Nazis. Admittedly they had limited options in 1940/41, but they were forced into a war with the Soviet Union they didn't really want. (Well maybe the Romanians wanted Moldova back. Hmm not sure if Moldova was part of the Molotov-Ribbentrop agreement or just a 1940 Soviet power play.
@Sharkkangaroo THANK YOU! The TimeGhost Army is seriously the best audience on TH-cam, and the best fans out there. Plus, our army will be unstoppable with a Sharkkangaroo on our side!
One more thing to correct here : Allied Campaign in Italy was about more than just divert German reinforcements from France and Eastern Front (though that was a big factor too) New interim Italian goverment after Fall of Mussolini in July 1943 , started surrender negotiations with Allies BUT they were insisting NOT to surrender till Allies land on mainland Italy and until then they declared they would remain in Axis due to fear of possible German reprisals towards Italian civilian population. For Allies the strategic and diplomatic oppurtunity here was too good and too big to miss. Once Italy surrendered , Italian Navy could (and actually did) switch sides and join Allies turning Mediterranean to complate Allied control open to Allied shipping convoys (that would mean about two or three times increase in Allied shipping capacity by sailing from Gibraltar , Mediterranean and Suez in short cut and therefore enlarge Allied shipping transport capacity multiple times without constructing any new vessels). 15th US Air Force also intended to capture Italian air bases at Foggia in Central Italy to enlarge Allied strategic air offensive against Germany from south by November 1943. And all Italian garrisons they vacated in Aegean Sea , Eastern Mediterranean and Balkans would (and did) be replaced by German units that would further suck their deplating reserves (aside from German Army Group C in Italy with 20 German divisions , OKW had to send 15 or so extra more German divisions to disarm and replace Italian garrisons in Balkans and Dordenecasse) Since Allies were still not ready for D-Day , Cross Channel invasion (they were not even in preliminary planning stage for D-Day at this point , they would start its initial studies in April 1943) and Operation BOLERO the transfer of US forces and build up in UK was still behind schedule due to shipping crisis and U-Boat threat in Battle of Atlantic. German Air Force over Europe still had huge superiorty over Western Europe (air superiorty for Allies was a must have coındition for Cross Chanel invasion) and without any Allied Transportation Plan to interdict Railway and Road network in Europe-which was the best in the world-Germans could reinforce any threatened sector faster than Allies could transfer and land their reinforcements) , focusing on Mediterranean Theater in 1943 to clip Axis further by taking Italy out of war , was the only rational strategic choice for Allies.
Yes, I agree. But the question is, was there still any merit to this campaign after D-Day? They weren't going to suck in much further Germans divisions, all the damage that could have been done to the Germans strategically had been done, the Med was open to Allied shipping. And neither the US and in particular the British could afford to keep those divisions in theater. The US withdrew 3 divisions and a Corps HQ for Dragoon, the French their Expeditionary Corps, the Canadians their I Corps and the British withdrew and disbanded even more divisions during the winter of 44-45. Either to keep other divisions at strength or to send them to Western Europe or Greece. They might as well have dug in somewhere north of Rome for the rest of the war.
@@chaptermasterpedrokantor1623 Actually pursuit of Germans furtner north from Rome , diverted more and more German divisions and reinforcerments to Italian peninsula to stabilise the front there after Gustav Line was breached and Rome fell in May-June 1944. Germans pulled two divisions (Herman Goering Panzer and 29th Panzergranedier Divisions) from Army Group C defending Italian front BUT they sent five German infantry division to Italy to compansate that in August-September 1944 to halt Allied advance before it reached Northern Italy where German war economy was extremely dependent on raw materials , Italian heavy industry (mostly established in Northern Italy around Milan and Po Valley) and food growth production in Po Valley known as German troops and Armaments Minister Speer as "A Land of Milk and Honey to Suck out" Capturing Northern Italy in 1944 would be a huge blow to German war economy.
You make many good points. Churchill was the one who really pushed for an Italian invasion and in the initial months of that campaign, especially the quick taking of Sicily, it seemed to have been most Justified, but soon after when things got bogged down and the Germans decided they would fight on without the Italian Army, it turned out to have been a blunder. You're absolutely right that it seemed like a very rational choice at a time and that the extra year allowed the Allies to prepare themselves for the onslaught they would face in France and ready the massive logistical undertaking that it would entail, but all that would mean that it would have been better to take southern Italy and then just be on defense for the rest of the war since the continued offensives were ineffective in defeating the well-entrenched Germans, who remained in Italy up until the surrender in May 1945. Also, the delay of a year gave the Germans more time to improve the Atlantic Wall.
@@theoutlook55 Atlantic Wall was mostly a propaganda piece , ineffective thin line of fortifications that could not hold Allied landings on D-day even for few hours because SHEAF and 21st Army Group made every preperation and planning possi,ble in this available time not to fail in landings. Real fight of Normandy Campaign was during following weeks when German reinforcemernts began pouring in.
@@theoutlook55 Believe or not , you can check any resource , neither Allies nor German generals nor OKW expected that Kesselring and Hitler (former in over optimistic delusion , the latter in obssisive narcisim ) expected Germans (very stupidly as it turned out) commit 20-25 German divisions in dead end of Italian peninsula therefore wasting their resouces before decisive campaigns of 1944. The main idea and expectation of both Allies and Germans was after surrender of Italy , Germans would retreat to Apennine Mountains and Italian Alps in 1943-44 winter to hold Northern Italy , NOT Central Italy and holding Rome for a few more months as it turned out to be. Kesselring in a weird over optimism convinced Hitler to hold Central Italy and Rome by committing more and more divisions to Italy and leaving the cupboard bare in France before D-Day (after Anzio landings further five German divisions sent from France to Italy in January 1944) and Soviet Bagration offensive in Eastern Front just for face saving image of holding Rome ! German Army Group C defending Northern Italy was routed , destroyed and unconditionally surrendered in April 1945 (one week before Unconditional Surrender of Germany) because of Operation GRAPEHOT , Final Allied Offensive in Northern Italy towards Po Valley in 8-29 April 1945. This offensive was a massive victory for Allies in Italy which put them into Austria before surrender of German Army in May 1945.
Sicily huh? Well let's see if the Italian navy can do something to prevent an invasion. Looking forward to it (well not that we don't already know how that will evolve but anyway, let's wait for more). Good job as always dear Time Ghost team.
I’ll bet that at times the top brass became giddy with the sense of creating history. Though I doubt any realized the extent the feeling had to be nearly overwhelming.
The plan for Italy was fine as a distraction plan but not a war winning plan. Landing in Italy and occupying German divisions there to prevent their use in the Eastern front and later in France was good. But trying to push up though Italy was never a good idea. It would take 10 allied casualties for every German defending in Italy and then in the Alps to get into German via Italy. That is why I always hate it when people say Clark made the incorrect decision in taking Rome when he took it "for glory". First, Clark was one of the few Officers of a high enough rank to know that D-Day was happening the next day after he took Rome. So if he was actually doing it for "glory" (which he wasn't) he would have known it would have been massively overshadowed in less then 24 hours. 2nd, people always ignore that Clark was ordered by US General George Marshall (the highest ranking US General in WW2) and British General Harald Alexander to take Rome. In Marshall's case it was a direct order in Alexander's case it was a order of "if Rome is open, take it". People today act like had Clark tried to surround the German troops retreating north that 1. he would have actually surrounded them all (almost all his mobile forces were taken away for D-Day) and 2. they act like surrendering those troops would have done something to end the war drastically faster. The Germans would have just sent another 1-2 divisions down to Italy to plug the lines or they could have just retreated even further North in Italy to even better defensive lines. That is all Italy is basically, is one great defensive line after another. Clark, Marshall and most British generals knew WW2 was never ending through Italy like Churchill wanted earlier in the war. Italy had become a side show after D-Day to occupy Axis forces. So long as the German's still kept troops to defend that front the troops in Italy from all nations (there were like 8 nations fighting in the 2 allied armies in Italy) were doing their job by making it easier for the allied armies in France and the Eastern front to get into Germany easier and faster. Could the allies have pushed the Germans through the Alps? Yes they could have. But the casualties rate would have been insane and what would the purpose of that have been in a war that was already over essentially? Clark being a veteran of WW1 did what he was ordered and took Rome when told to and didn't launch reckless attacks against the German lines unless directly ordered to (those were made to ensure the Germans were still in Italy in force). People also forget that Rome was a huge Allied war goal, the first Axis capital of the war to fall and was a city that was supposed to have fallen months prior to when it did. SO When Clark had the opportunity to now take Rome both General Marshall and Harold Alexander told him to take it rather then TRY to surround a few thousand German troops that did nothing in the grand scheme of the war ending. While on the other hand taking Rome did have importance in the global grand war scheme.
I was listening to this being talked about on the We Have Ways podcast and this gets a big mention in Antony Beevor's book on WWII and they were saying how nobody else mentions this notion that Clark took Rome for "glory" as you say. Apparently when pressed on it, Beevor couldn't confirm a source. In his Arnhem book he also apparently states that German troops were just better man for man than Allied ones which is increasingly being questioned and disproven by more recent and upcoming historians.
There were many practical ways to bypass German defensive lines in Italy like amphibious landings in their rear (Allies tried that in Termoli in October 1943 then in Anzio January 1944 ) but IF they were planned , supported and reinforced right with all necessary assets provided otherwise amphibious operations are big invitations to disaster (Gallipoli 1915 , Dieppe 1942) against a quickly reacting opposion like Germans. When after November 1943 all Allied amphibious assets ships and landing crafts and LSTs along with air fleets were transferred from Mediterranean Theater to UK for D-Day , (it is one of the big reasons while SHINGLE , that is Anzio landings , failed to achive decisive results because of lack of landing crafts and LSTs which were either transferred or in process of transfer to Britain for D*Day in January 1944. Due to scarcity of landing craft and LSTs , initial wave of landing force in Anzio was very weak and landing of of entire 6th Corps was divided to three or or landing echalons or waves within one week that neutralised any suprise and speed advantage for attackers so corps commander Lucas played wise and put up defending the bridhgehead in first priorty. I do not judge Clark too harshly nor blame for every failure and setback in Mediterranean after 1943 summer. He was personally brave , making himself as an example under fire and in risky operations (like contacting Vichy French officers in French North Africa clandestinely before TORCH Landings) BUT he was too ambitious and glory hounding for his own good , sidelining not only his collegues and subordinates (like Walker or Truscott) but even his superiors (any other army group commander other than Firld Marshal Harold Alexander who was a fine coordinatior and diplomat but not an autoritarian imposing figure , would sack Clark for insubordination in 1944 instead Clark had him relieved) and press and public attention seeker. On this last regard he was not that different from Montgomery but Montgomery had played a huge role shaping and training and putting up a functional operational doctrine for entire Allied armies (both British Commonwealth Armies and less so but still influential for US Army) and drawing operational plans that were more sucessful than failures , Clark remained as army commander in Italy who constantly missed tactical and operational oppurtunities like AVALANCHE , Salerno Landings in September 1943 (where he saved the situstion he caused by personal example in beachead) or trying to march Rome instead of sticking original DIADEM plan and destroying if not most then a considerable portion of 14th German Army cornered south of Anzio (two German corps , that is extra 40.000 men) and could be cut off at Valmenterore after breakout from Anzio in May 1944. A loss that big would force OKW to divert even more replacements and reinforcements to Italian peninsula in 1944 summer and autumn if 15th Army Group would not reach Po Valley and Alps in Northern Italy but 1944-45 winter. I hate to play what if so I will leave it here but Clark's insubordination , press and glory hounding issues made him a liability for Allied cause. He had his undeniable strengths and positive traits but his personal priorties usually screwed these up.
"It would take Ten Allies Casaulties For Every Allied One..." is a little too over exagerration. At the and of Italian Campaign April 1945 , Allied 15th Army Group deployed in Italy (despite denied and sucked dry of every reinforcement , amphibious assets that were diverted to France before and after D-Day) suffered 336.000 casaulties in total (killed , wounded , captured , missing , got sick , deserted etc all included) while German Army Group C defending Italy (with defensive firepower AND mountainous range and river obstacle advantages) lost 542.000 casaulties in total most of them prisoners. (source Second World War , John Keegan , History of WWII , Lidell Hart) Original operational orders of Clark in Operation DIADEM (Big Offensive for Fourth Battle of Cassino and breakout from Anzio ) from Alexanders HQ (Alexander was Clark's superior) was after breakout was achived in Cisterna on 23-26 May 1944 TO SEVER the roads leading to Rome at Valmentore , that would trap two full German corps at south of Anzio perimeter and while would not force them to surrender (Germans were experts in breaking out from encirclements and they displayed in Eastern Front over and over and later in Falaise Gap with improvised battlegroups) Clark uniliterally and deliberately disobeyed and changed Alexander's orders and diverted 6th Corps (including Howze's 1st US armored Division that was fully mobile) to Rome whose advance was blocked thanks to retreating 14th German Army forces (40.000 , two full corps including Hermann Goering Panzer Division that was deployed south of Rome. Lost or severe deplation of two corps could not be rectified by only "one or two extra German divisions" Even after DIADEM concluded and Rome fell in June 1944 , German Army Group C suffered appox 50.000 casaulties in this Allied offensive within three weeks in May 1944 and OKW had to divert five more German divisions from its deplated reserves to Italy to compansate and they barely halted 15th Army Group after that actually on Gothic Line south of Po river in October 1944 , if Clark obeyed his original orders in DIADEM/BUFFOLO operations in May 1944 (before D-Day when "war was not over for anyone at all without 80 year hindsight" we have now) he could increase German casaulties in Italy to probably 75.000 or 80.000 during DIADEM/BUFFOLO operations at south of Rome in May and June 1944 and force OKW to send even more divisions they did not have to Italy , something that would make Eisenhower in Normandy or Zhukov in Eastern Front very happy. Reaching Po Valley in 1944 summer or autumn would be a huge victory for Allies since hard pressed German war economy depended a lot on captured Italian industry in Northern Italy. Eventually it was Walker's 36th US Division that saved the situation , broke through German lines in a daring night attack to Velletri on 31st May and opened the road to Rome. Clark first rewarded Walker with Silver Star then relieved him from his division command and sent him back to States.
Clark was never diciplined for his insubordination , gross public and press attention seeking (Patton called Clark "just too damn slick to be general") and tactical/operational failures of course ( though they were not disasterous as his critics over exagerrate too) , on the contrary after Alexander was promoted as Commander in Chief Mediterranean Theater , Clark got his previous job and promoted to commander of 15th Army Group in Italy in December 1944 BUT he probably learned a few lessons from his earlier mistakes in past. In fact when he got Alex's job , he let his army commanders (Eighth Army commander Richard McCreery and Fifth Army commander Lucien Truscott) complately free to plan and execute Spring Offensive in Northern Italy towards Po Valley. That offensive (Operation GRAPESHOT) launched in first week of April 1945 , was an absoute sucess and victory for Allies. By the time it was halted on 30th April 1945 , entire Northern Italy was liberated , German Army Group C (two full German Armies) were destroyed , 290.000 German prisoners were captured , German Army Group C unconditionally surrendered (one week before Unconditional Surrender of Germany) and 15th Army Group passed through Alps (all in three weeks) was entering to Austria and Yugoslavia One more thing to correct here : Allied Campaign in Italy was more than just divert German reinforcements from France and Eastern Front (though that was a big factor too) New interim Italian goverment after Fall of Mussolini in July 1943 , started surrender negotiations with Allies BUT they were insisting NOT to surrender till Allies land on mainland Italy and until then they declared they would remain in Axis. The strategic and diplomatic oppurtunity here was too good and too big to miss. Once Italy surrendered , Italian Navy could (and actually did) switch sides and join Allies turning Mediterranean to complate Allied control open to Allied shipping convoys (that would mean about two or three times increase in Allied shipping capacity by sailing from Gibraltar , Mediterranean and Suez in short cut and therefore enlarge Allied shipping transport capacity multiple times without constructing any vessels). 15th US Air Force also captured Italian air bases at Foggia in Central Italy to enlarge Allied strategic air offensive against Germany from south by November 1943. And all Italian garrisons they vacated in Aegean Sea , Eastern Mediterranean and Balkans would (and did) be replaced by German units that would further suck their deplating reserves (aside from German Army Group C in Italy with 20 German divisions , OKW had to send 15 or so extra more German divisions to disarm and replace Italian garrisons in Balkans and Dordenecasse)
@@cobbler9113 Yeah it is just another of those big WW2 myths that were started decades ago that have stuck. There are a lot that get to me that I wish I could correct the public WW2 fan on.
The Axis, who were on a string of victories in Russia, North Africa, and the Pacific, are now being on the retreat. But the Allies, now confident that they have truly beaten the enemy will find out, the enemy hasn’t lost their will to fight. And fight they will. They will continue on to fight. But can the Allies overcome them? Uncertainty is ahead. Godspeed.
My Russian professosrd at Duke University said he and his wife were two of only 11 members of the faculty at the University of Leningrad to survive the siege. Serving in the Soviet Army during the siege, he said they mostly fought the Spanish Blue Division.
@@ScottyShaw I graduated in 1968. His name was professor Milhail Pavlov. My major was German. If Duke had a “minor” I would have had enough hours. I was in ROTC. Since I could speak German and Russian the USAF sent me to aircraft maintenance school and then to the Philippines
On January 12 1943, General Leclerc declares that the Fezzan campaign is over. After an offensive that lasted around 3 weeks, the Free French now control all the towns and oasis in southwest Libya, take a thousand prisoners and seize important equipment. But above all, the road to Tripoli is open to them. The Italians are driven out of Fezzan, now administered by Colonel Raymond Delange. On January 13, the Free French make junction with elements of the British 8th army at Hun, about 300 km south of Syrte, and Charles de Gaulle praise the adventure of Leclerc and his companions on the BBC, “an achievement that is in no way inferior to the most beautiful ones in our great history”, he assures, before adding: "With the victory of our troops from Chad, the enemy saw rising, once again, that flame of the French war which he had believed extinguished in disaster and treason, but which, not for a single day , never stopped burning and growing under the breath of those who did not despair.” P.S : can't say i'm surprised but i'm still disappointed there is no mention at all of the Free French campaign in the Fezzan either here on the youtube channel nor on instagram.
Charles De Gaulle was an political opportunist, He shamed himself and his nation with stupid vain glorious ideas. So many Americans and British Commonwealth soldiers died so that he could achieve his political ambitions.....
Great job I know you went to 20 min and I appreciated the explanation of the logistics of how to attack and where to attack. I am always amazed at how long it takes to build up a 500,000 fighting man army and all the stuff they need for it, it just blows my mind. I didn't realize the complexities of what the US and Britain were facing on were to put resources I knew about it but just not to that depth. The more and more I think about it even knowing everything I know I'm not for sure if I would have changed the plan they came up with. What would you guy's have changed at this point in the war?
Hey Indy just a fun fact for this episode, I'm hungarian and, here when somebody say:"I can't handle this cold weather" or "I don't like the winter" we answer them "and who cares The Battle at the Don river was worst"
@Fred Nurke the being without ice-cream was something I suspected. A convoy bringing ice-cream was new to me. Should be good for morale, though. When things are rough even small luxuries can give a real boost to morale.
Hi Indy Another intense week. So axis losing every where.. And allies planning and planning.. No breakthrough.. Stalingrad horror continues.. Still how far this war will go? Thanks for another great week..
I really cant shake the feeling that the Soviets have just gained the Tactical initiative and Advantage over the Whermacht and OKH You can see how disastrous the dig in stand firm orders are when all thats happening is that the main fighting units are tied up in fighting their way out of constant encirclement actions by the Soviets
I’m confident the Führer and the general staff will regain the initiative later this year. Based on the topography, I think the Kursk Oblast region is a likely place to try and regain the initiative, once the weather is better. Plus, some new and exciting weapons are forthcoming. They will surely turn the tide. Right?
Thank you for the episode, Indy and crew! Saying though that Leningrad was supplied by "sporadic supply lines" makes I sound way too casual and disorganized. It was a titanic well coordinated effort and not a sporadic supply line here and there
Yes, it was also why (SPOILER ALERT) the British went in to occupy Greece in 1944 after the Germans abandoned it. Churchill also continued lobbying for a Balkan landing well into 1945 but the Americans didn't want to antagonise the Soviets.
Churchill's coverage of WWII speaks a little on this with opening fronts partially to keep influence in the areas, though landing craft always never being enough to go around was always a problem.
That theory I feel never had legs. (I no longer have Churchill's history of the war so I can't check if he ever even made the claim.) The British occupation of abandoned Greece helped prevent Greece from going communist, but it almost did anyway, via elections, and the communist party gets a large number of seats for decades after the war. That was the best outcome. Even this came out because the Germans wanted to shorten their lines as things became desperate. The American view was Churchill's Balkan interest was more in extending the British Empire than actual efforts to defeat Germany or to prevent eventual Soviet influence. As it happens Tito doesn't need much Soviet (or Allied) help to defeat the Germans in what becomes Yugoslavia, and is never occupied by the Red Army as Poland/Hungry/Czechoslovakia/Romania. (Tito might even have fought the Allies if they occupied Yugoslavia.) Indeed, during the war it was Churchill that prefers the Allies support Tito's communists to other partisan groups in the region. Also Churchill will participate in Yalta where the spheres of influence are delimited.
@@robertkras5162 You're wrong on one front. Tito WAS getting critical arms and ammo support. Manpower, he had that in spades. The boys were motivated... to say the least. He was getting enough ammo to keep a slew of Italian and Kraut divisions tied down. And yet, his crew had no weapons factories; and there were only so many Axis weapons laying around to be re-purposed. So you had London supporting Tito in a major way, while scheming to hold off Bolshevism in Greece. Oh, well.
@@davidhimmelsbach557 I didn't say he wasn't getting arms/ammo - but Tito was successful at self-liberating without the help of the Red Army and was in good enough review with Stalin (at the time) to avoid a Red Army occupation.
I probably shouldn't feel too sorry for the German troops in Stalingrad as their defeat was necessary for an Allied victory in the war and many of them might well be complicit in grotesque atrocities, but those conditions are absolutely awful. Genuinely impressive that they still held out at this point.
They came to murder every Russian they could find. We should have as much sympathy for the Germans in Stalingrad as you would for someone who broke into your house with the intent to murder you and your family, but was in fact wounded and then killed in the attempt.
Its human nature to sympathize when you hear of suffering but remember they were suffering because they were trying to exterminate millions to steal their land
August von Mackensen managed to remain a very important figure during the First World War. Eberhard von Mackensen was also a commander on the Eastern front during the Second World War. August von Mackensen would say: That's my boy.
Great channel! Looking forward to the new episode each week. Good to hear something about Leningrad again. Will there be a special about that at one point? A long siege with many dead, but too drawn out to get much attention in the regular episodes.
@Arjen Drost Thank you for your loyal viewership. It's wonderful knowing how engaged our audience is, and we appreciate you following along with us as we navigate this war. Stay tuned
I cannot remember seeing a special how the medical forces are organised among the waring sides. Sanitäter, медсестра, medics, etc? By now all sides should have alot of wounded casualties to deal with?
We'll think about that one for the future. It might be better as an Out Of The Foxholes question though if anyone cares to something similar in the forums
@@WorldWarTwo I can imagine this could be actually enough material to do 2 films on medical services in the axis and allied countries. WWII is for most part stil a pre- antibiotic medicine. But surgeries are preformed on all fronts, masses of wounded have to be cared for in the rear - but how? In Germany the Charité University clinic with Prof. Sauerbruch is operating revolutionary limb procedures an partially operates in a bunker on the campus. In the USA the mercy ships provide medical care for many soldiers. But how does it look in Japan, UK or Italy? Or Russia? Mr Fleming and his penicillin is only being developed (you spoke about it before). But how is the general civil and military hospital care organised during war and the logistics thereto? And is it working? How many wounded return to the front? Or other service anyhow? Was the red cross on the military vehicles respected? And how were captured medics/doctors treated? I'm glad to supply you with suggestions.
It's not only Britian being an island nation. They had maybe one real army that was going to be deployed to europe. The 7th would be stripped and would command the smaller half of the Italian front, but the only real British army would be the 2nd. They couldn't risk their only army for the war in france and 43, the risk of defeat and destruction was way too high.
Marshall was nuts, there's no way the western allies could have been ready to invade France in '43. The buildup of troops and material would take until '44 to complete, even without the Italian campaign. Meanwhile what are you going to do? Sit on your hands while the Eastern front remains in the balance?
Comically Marshall even advocating invading France in 1942 (when British were overstretched and had no reserves for a such expedition and only a few US divisions were en route to UK) even fiercely defending that position by threatening British with shifting US resources to Pacific.
Marshall was like many leaders of the time way too optimistic. Far too many leaders think their position, resources, skill and knowledge is somehow better than everyone else's.
There is some suggestion that the American generals like Marshall knew an invasion of France wasn't possible in 1942, and that they were instead reaching for an angle to get FDR to shift focus to the Pacific. Since the Germany first policy was implemented & held historically, it might seem like a sure thing that everyone was on board with. It was however not without a great deal of controversy, as early in the war many American officers viewed Japan rather than Germany as the US' principal enemy. FDR's leadership was crucial there.
Just some additional info cause the report here was very brief on this aspect (not to criticize, I understand it is difficult to cover so many fronts in detail): this is considered to be the biggest defeat in the Hungarian military history ever, even though we had our fair share of wars over the centuries before this - including a huge defeat against the Mongols (it ultimately lead to the loss of that war and the loss of 2/3 of Hungary's population at the time, but looking at only the single battle the losses were smaller). The 2nd army being "poorly equipped in general" did not include only the arms, e.g. the underwear inventory was at 30% by this time (most servicemen were down to 1 and kept patching it) based on the surviving reports of logistical NCOs and officers. Same reports and accounts of the survivors say that no platoon had more than 50% of adequate winter coats, so nobody had their own coat, each servicemen handed his to the next guy when their watch has ended. Almost all supplies sent by Hungary (intended for the Hungarian soldiers), all Hungarian tanks, all anti-tank weaponry, most of the artillery and mortars and machine guns were re-routed to the German troops fighting elsewhere (since the HU 2nd army was under German command, this could not be prevented by Jány), so there were mostly only rifles, hand weapons and the Hungarian grenades (which were designed with a trigger mechanism that was sensitive to impact, so they often didn't explode when hitting the snowy surface as it was soft). Also, most of the Hungarian 2nd army soldiers weren't well-trained, as they were not meant to be frontline soldiers. For example: one of my great-grandfathers died during this defeat, he was a "határvadász" (translates directly as "border hunter"), he was meant to patrol the borders of Hungary, so basically to prevent unathorized entry via the "wilderness", that is what he was trained for. Plus the mentioned fact that they held a lot of territory with comparatively few men. In overall this makes a perfect recipe for disaster. Utmost respect to the men who held out for days even among these circumstances.
You are the first poster I've seen that finally emphasizes that the Krauts were systematically stealing the weapons and supplies of their Axis allies -- all along -- something that I've brought up, over and over. The rotten performance of the Romanians, Italians and Hungarians is ENTIRELY due to these thefts. I rather doubt that OKH realized -- at all -- how extreme the Kraut theft campaign had become. Looking back, the Bolsheviks were fools not to have punched through the Axis allied front even earlier during Uranus. THIS, not Mars, was where Stavka should've put their emphasis. Then AGS-A would've been toast, PDQ.
@@davidhimmelsbach557 Well, yes. But it was also a factor that this wasn't the war these countries were prepared for. At least in Hungary when the equipment and the (few) vehicles (including the tanks) were designed the creators had a defensive war in mind, using mostly the Carpathian mountains as terrain. So there's that too. Otherwise, I agree with you. Never understood why the Soviets didn't focus on the non-German armies before. Hard to imagine that they didn't have enough intel - not to precisely pinpoint the supply situation, just to know that it is vastly unbalanced.
@@Taltosmaster The Krauts weren't even allowing sufficient underclothes to get through. Yiikes. The contrast with American allies is profound. The US is delighted to provide weapons, ammo, food, POL to its allies -- in just about any conflict. The buzzword is 'inter-operability.' As for defensive warfare, that's what Kraut logistics deprivation made impossible. I'm amazed that the Axis allies hung on as long as they did. The howls back in Rome, Bucharest, and Budapest must have been epic -- all along. OKH WAS run by fools.
@@davidhimmelsbach557 As far as I know, it wasn't really a matter of letting them through, just that with the limited transportation capabilities the German needs were prioritized - until their needs weren't fulfilled, nobody else's would. So not like "let them suffer", but "our boys come first, second and third, then everybody else". Throughout history, many had this attitude towards their allies. Still, really not cool. About the howls, I don't know the Italian and Romanian situations, but in Hungary the general public wasn't aware (letters coming from the frontline were censured as in every other country), and even though the HU military command and government did protest there wasn't really much that could be done. "Would you like to lose Northern Transylvania again? No? Thought so." Though, there were consequences. **spoiler alert** The mistreatment of the 2nd army was ultimately the last straw (already before this defeat), our governor/regent (since it was a kingdom but there was no king) ordered our prime minister to secretly broker a deal with the Allies: the moment they'll land in the Balkans, Hungary will surrender without a fight or even join them.
@@Taltosmaster The howls I'm referring to would've been the official ones. Individual letters back home would not have conveyed to their nation the fact their ENTIRE army was being screwed over. BTW, you are incorrect about stuff just not being shipped forward. The stolen field guns ended up in Kraut infantry formations... and, especially, rear area 'police' units. WWI military technology was just about perfect for shooting up terrified civilians in the hinterland. As you dig through the TO&E of such formations, you run across a hodgepodge of out of date weapons of all types. The only thing missing: spears. Should the Italians send trucks -- well -- consider them gone. And yes, the Krauts knew what they were doing. This epic folly was due to their ethnocentrism and arrogance. The Ostheer truck fleet was a mechanic's nightmare. Rommel went out of his way to talk up the American trucks in North Africa. They were ALL Fords. They were all new and practically identical. And they were a snap to maintain. (Rommel was a serious motor buff, yes, a real gear-head. Read his bio.) [ He was also quite the shutter bug and diarist -- both forbidden to the ranks. ] The Nazis were pure evil -- and fortunately -- amazingly incompetent at anything else. The German general staff couldn't bail out stupid. Their own pre-Barbarossa war gaming showed that defeat was a 'lock.'
Isn't Casablanca the place where FDR looked at Churchill lovingly and said "Here's looking at you, kid?" Still can't believe they made a city after that movie though.
Indy, Your clerk typists seem to be absent for this video. Were they conscripted? Wishing those young men and women the best of luck! Open positions with Gen. Darby i'm sure! Best Regards, Jay Deister SSG USA ret.
ro2 (and ro1) maps mentioned this week: (Leningrad) fun ro1 fact this time: the leningrad map had a 4-storey apartment building where you could enter every room. This seems cool until you're in a tank and have to try and flush out russian anti-tank from an apartment complex on your own with a handgun
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Steiner´s counterattack will save Velikie Luki.
Why use Kurowski, a discredited author, as a source? There is enough wehraboo myths on youtube with adding to it.
was kinda hoping to see something , anything, about the ice bridge...
I see the decoders are on leave LOL
Another interesting thing to note this week on January 15 1943 is that the world’s largest office building, *the Pentagon* , is completed in Arlington, Virginia. With a size of about 6.5 million square feet of floor space, it will eventually house thousands of military and civilian employees as the headquarters of the United States Department of War (now Department of Defense).
also, due to virginia's building code for segregated bathrooms, one of the world's largest collection of toilets
The department of war does sound way cooler
@@anaveragechannel468 agreed
@@pnutz_2 US facilities to my knowledge are not required to comply with local codes; the US military has been segregated since the Great War (Wilson very intentionally segregated it)
@@anaveragechannel468 I always liked Orwell's name for the war department "Minipeace"
Hungarian here, fun fact, the Disaster at Voronezh was actually the biggest Hungarian military defeat in history, maybe not by consequence but by sheer loss it was much bigger than Mohi and Mohacs combined.
Yet it’s only a footnote in the ever growing human disaster that is WW2
Luckily enough, My great grandad was saved from being sent there because he was his CO’s best friend.
But...didn't they *win* Mohács? After all, it was the end of Bohemian sovereignty.
@@vaclav_fejt Mohács was a great victory for the Ottomans which allowed them to conquer large parts of Hungary so I wouldn't exactly call it Hungarian victory.
@@Kubinda12345 Ah, so that's what it was. I only remember it as a defeat.
De Mohács a kifejezés ... for those unfamiliar with what I mean, Mohács is proverbial in Hungarian, it's a more meaningful way of saying 'It could be worse' :-)
Hungarian humor must be rather black since this can be considered a fun fact.
Reason I like this channel so much is its so similar to a book series I have of newspaper clippings from the war. The book series was only about 8,500 pages, so this one is easier to read while driving down the road
Whats the book series called?
The New York Times sells a book containing historical newspapers from the NYT at the time. It's pretty awesome.
@@EnderGraff1 Any links?
@@EnderGraff1 Name of the series?
Don't read and drive.
Fortunately for the Allies the soft underbelly of Europe can be overrun quite easily due to the excellent waterways, road and rail networks, and flat terrain of Italy (said nobody in his right mind).
Unlike France and Germany , Fascist Italy was politically weak and Mussolini's regime was crumbling , that is the definition of Soft Underbelly
Doesn’t matter if the allies knock politely on the door the Italians will surrender…
I guess knocking Mussolini and the fascists out of power in Italy the trains stopped running on time..
@@merdiolu The terrain is pretty ideal for defense, though, as events would prove. The Allies should have stopped once Foggia was secured and out of artillery range and used air power to isolate the German garrison, which would have allowed the Allies to transfer troops for at least the invasion of southern France.
@@steved5495 Mark Clark was our biggest problem. After that it was the Germans.
As horrible as the situation is at Velikie Luki, it must be a fun name to say
"Velikie Luki, Velikieluki, velikieluki, velikieluki..." Yes, I can see that.
In russian its even better. You can translate the name as "Great Bows" or even... "Great Onions".
Yup the name is catchy
@@artemiostheelder I've thought it means "Great Meadows". Was I wrong?
@@artemiostheelder Does that work for "Great Onions", though? I mean, "luk" is the word for onions, but when you want to count them, you speak of "lukovitsy".
An interesting footnote this week on January 11 1943 is that the United States and the United Kingdom will revise the unequal treaties that were imposed on the Qing dynasty during the 19th century and its successor, the Republic of China (ROC). They will renounce extraterritoriality privileges they enjoyed for decades, and this also meant that British and American enclaves in Mainland China like the Shanghai International Settlement will be transferred back to Chinese control after the war. Boards and signs saying “The Gardens are reserved for the Foreign Community” in Huangpu Park would also become a thing of the past.
That's interesting
The Chinese haven't forgotten the Opium Wars either, I suspect.
@@HandleGF yeah they worry about that and not about the dictatorship they currently live under
@@mikepette4422 A wild guess suggests you're American.
Very interesting, yeah I had seen that on a community post
Oh boy the start of the Italian campaign one of the most hotly contested of all the offensives And one of the heaviliest debated about whether or not it was useful Can't wait for this a lot of high school drama in it good show guys always loving it
Patton fumed as much as Stalin at Churchill saying sorry chums its Sicily or bust.
I reckon there was some merit in taking Southern Italy, as it helped re-open the Mediterranean for Allied shipping, gave the Allies another base to operate another strategic bombing air force from, it allowed them to properly supply and support Tito's partisans in Yugoslavia and it did draw in some crucial German elite divisions that were needed on the Eastern Front the most. The only question is was there any merit left to this campaign after D-Day? Especially for the manpower strapped British whose operations in Western Europe and Greece ended up sucking division after division from this theater.
Correct.
@@chaptermasterpedrokantor1623 there's an argument that it could have been considered a (more) worthwhile campaign if Clark hadn't gone for Rome and instead cut off the Germans before they could finish their retreat from the (I don't recall, Siegfried?) Line as had been planned.
But Sicily was not really deemed an Italian Campaign.
At the time, it was pitched simply as an island campaign to clear the path to India.
Most of Brooke's ship savings came from the drastic reduction in transit distance from Liverpool to Mumbai.
Italy didn't automatically follow.
Patton's 7th Army was ultimately deflected from its (American) objective of southern France -- to southern Italy. It's notable that the divisions stayed the same -- but now they were under 5th Army and a new general: Clark.
But this was resisted, until the Sicilian Campaign showed just how tough fighting the Krauts still was.
Even but a few Kraut divisions were enough to throttle American desires.
One of the reasons Patton was so obsessed with winning fast in Sicily was that he hoped to be then vectored on to southern France.
It soon proved a vain hope. The chiefs looked at the cluster that Husky was -- and France was 'tabled.'
Allies: we can defeat Germany by the end of 1943!
Also allies: we can't launch even a limited attack in Tunisia now.
It's not all that far fetched when you consider how rapidly the West's expanding capabilities were after the US joined. I personally think that a 1943 Op Roundup would have likely succeeded but the cost would have been much, much higher, possibly leading to political changes.
The trouble is there's also the higher risk of disaster. The worst-case-scenario for the Allies isn't a failed landing in France (that would be painful, but the number of losses wouldn't actually be *that* high in the grand scheme of things, and they could try again later) but a successful landing that doesn't put a strong enough army ashore. If things go wrong it could lead to those ~25 Allied divisions getting quickly surrounded by much larger forces and destroyed in France, which is a Stalingrad-scale catastrophe.
@@imperium3556 But it wouldn't change anything in the long run not materially. As long as the Soviets keep fighting the Allies are going to win no matter what happens in France in 1943
@@specialnewb9821 Probably, but there's also no telling what a Stalingrad like disaster would have done foe the Morale of the people in the US and even more so the UK. Could have lead to loud screams for peace. Whether that would have mattered is of course a different story.
@@imperium3556 This is the point. In spring 1943 the allies could probably have got the troops in Britain ashore in France, though in spring 1943 there was enough Luftwaffe to make that costly. But that would just result in all those troops facing another Dunkirk in summer 1943. Italy proved to be less useful than expected but it was still a better option than that.
It's amazing how on one front the men are fighting in a frozen wasteland and and at the same time other men are fighting in a hot, humid jungle.
@@aldreymenezes7652 That too
@@aldreymenezes7652 If I was a soldier at the time and had my choice between the three, I'd choose the desert. I can deal with sand and heat. I struggle with humidity... and I just can't stand the cold. I would be useless in temps below about 20° Farenheit (or -7° Celcius).
@@AbbeyRoadkill1 personally I enjoy the cold, but if I were conscripted, then honestly, I would probably just resort to injuring myself to avoid being near frontlines.
@@AbbeyRoadkill1 useless in temps below -7? Have u ever tried, idk, cloths? I heard they help a lot with cold insulation
On Thursday, January 14, 1943, Major Ioannis Tsigantes, the younger brother of Colonel Christodoulos Tsigantes (CO of the Greek Sacred Band), was compromised and was killed in a skirmish with Italian Carabinieri who stormed his hideout in down-town Athens, Greece. Maj. Tsigantes killed two Carabinieri and wounded three more, but he eventually succumbed to the storming Italians. Maj. Tsigantes was the leader of the resistance group "Midas 614" and carried out acts of sabotage and espionage to disrupt the German war effort. Tsigantes was 46 yo and posthumously was promoted to the rank of Lieutenant-Colonel.
My grandfather was a member of the Royal Hungarian Army, and was also at the Don when the main soviet attack happened on the 14th. The soviets had such an overwhelming numerical superiority that the front collapsed that day. Thousands of hungarians threw away their weapons, left their equipment behind and fled westward, despite the threats of officers that they will shoot down anyone who dares to desert.
The first attacks actually happened on the 12th, but the major attack occurred on the 14th. Since the hungarians were under heavy attack, and had to retreat they couldn't eat or sleep properly for 2 days. It's also worth noting that the winter of 1942/43 was brutally cold, -40 degrees Celsius (same in Fahrenheit), and that the snow was hip deep. So after two days of not eating nor sleeping many hungarians couldn't keep on moving and froze to death while they stopped to rest.
My grandfather befriended a guy on the front who was from the same region of the country where he was from. When they fled, the guy couldn't keep up, and squatted down to rest, telling my old man to leave him behind. Grandpa don't wanted to leave him behind, so after he failed to talk sense to him, he kicked him around in the snow a few times to make him angry enough to stand up. Anyone reading this will at this point probably think that my granddad was an animal. I have two things to say about that: One, my old man was a pig farmer, not a motivational coach, he wasn't good with words. And two, you have never seen war from up close, and you definitely didn't see the Eastern Front of WW2, injustice and inhumanity was everywhere around them. So after convincing his mate to keep on moving they found barn where they were able to rest for a day, and both survived the war. Ater the war my grandfather and his friend met a few times and he thanked my grand multiple times for not leaving him behind on the soviet snowfields.
Edit: Forgot to mention that he was 16 years of age when he lived through all this.
Your Grandfather did exactly the right thing. His mate would have gone to sleep in the snow and never woken up.
Good man, saved one's life
One has to imagine that, as depressing as the thought of the Soviets beating the Germans was for guys like your grandfather, I have to imagine it was better than freezing to death somewhere far from home.
Damn, such an difficult situation. Your grandad is lucky
Awesome story. Too many war stories I hear on the internet posted by children/grandchildren are stereotypical. I am sure it is not easy for him to admit he ran away, but I would do the same damn thing.
I got part of the family story of a Russian friend a long time ago. He, Aleksandr, was from Moscow, but his dad was originally from Leningrad. So how did he end up in Moscow? He, the dad, was 14 and living in Leningrad when the Germans arrived and encircled the city in 1941. As he was only 14, he only got a child's ration of food, which was totally not enough for a teenager. And he was too young to join the army, where he would have gotten a larger ration, otherwise he would have joined just to get the food ration. Well, not just because of the food ration, but he wanted that one as well. So he instead volunteered as a factory worker, making weapons. This way he got an armaments factory worker's ration of food, which was almost the same as a fighting soldier's ration. But even that was something totally pitiful. I think it was like half a loaf of bread a day, and nothing else. Leningrad was encircled, and it was very hard to get food into the city. The only way was by ship across Lake Ladoga, or by truck when the lake froze. But since he had younger siblings at home who only got the children's ration, he took his daily half loaf of bread home and shared it with them, and with his parents. After a few months of this, he collapsed from starvation, and went into a coma. Apparently he was evacuated, still in a coma, on a flatbed truck driving across the waterlogged ice of Lake Ladoga in the spring of 1942, under German air attack and artillery shelling, and he later came to in a hospital in Moscow. And he couldn't return to his family in Leningrad, so he settled in Moscow instead, on his own. He was a grown up now, after all, fifteen years old, and an experienced factory worker. It was only after the war ended that he could meet his family, that is those of them who had survived the siege of Leningrad. And this was why Aleksandr was from Moscow, not Leningrad. He had this thing about absolutely not wasting food, and he told this story once when the rest of us mocked him for being the way he was.
@Niinsa62 Thank you for watching, and thanks very much for sharing his story. Seeing the humanity in someone else's perspective like that can forever alter and deepen our capacity for empathy. We must always take care of each other, and it's only through compassion and understanding that we can achieve strength. Never forget.
Imagine making fun of him only to get slapped by a brutal "in Soviet Russia" story.
My great great Uncle Cleston Stover took part in the last Guadalcanal Offensive. He was in the 2nd Marine Division, 6th Regiment and took part in the fighting as the marines drove up the coast. It's incredible to hear about the broader battle and imagine what he must've seen. Thank you so much for these videos!
@HalfmanTheHand Thank you for sharing that part of your family's history. Amazing to hear from the families of the soldiers themselves, so many years later as we examine this chaotic war. Thanks for joining us and stay tuned for more episodes every week
It's interesting that "Death Corridor" has a second name, a "Road of Victory". Kinda show how a path to victory lies through a valley of death in WW2 if you think about it.
This is interesting...
Nice observation! Thanks
It's like the "Battle of the Bulge," a name that is hated by US Army historians, who prefer the "Ardennes Offensive."
Unfortunately yes. The dark truth is that by sacrificing enough people, just about anything can be accomplished eventually.
Perhaps the name depends on which direction it is traveled.
I feel its also important to note that memories of Verdun, the Somme and the relatively recent defeat at Dunkirk gave the British hemorrhoids just thinking about another ground campaign in France, for fears of a meat grinding stalemate would ensue. Funny enough the rough and narrow terrain of Italy turned into the dead locked meat grinder the British feared.
Irony being that that only happened after the Italians themselves surrendered.
the british had no memories of Verdun
At Casablance a British general actually said to Marshall "Its no good pushing us to invade early - you are fighting our memories of the Somme" (quite literally because many senior British generals would actually have been junior officers there).
Patch promises that this will be his "final offensive" in Guadalcanal reminds me Paulus' own promises about Stalingrad.
Me too! He certainly went through a few 'final' offensives and I expect we will see many more around the world before the war is over
I applaud the the attention payed to “ the big picture “ , the geopolitical landscape of allies and adversaries that accompany the emotional experience of warfare .Good show !
A lot less distracting with just Indy there. I like it.
Agree
Yeah - I think there's a rule with film making that you don't include anything in shot that will consistently take attention away from your main subject.
your phone call intros, add immensely to the show, Indy.. it's usually just enough info to deduce where we're heading.. Bravo!
16:50 lmao idk why but I love how Bento did the face of "oh yea yea I know I'm the best and truly a god"💀💀💀💀💀
Be honest Indy, your primary motivation for doing this whole project was simply so you could use that "No way, Jose" gag!
Edited to add: I didn’t mean I didn’t like it 😂
i had the urge to hit unsubscribe when I heard that
@@emmisysquire9684 I have the same urge every time he says that. A repeated joke is not a joke anymore.
Beato!
@@Darwinek than don’t watch the series
It wasn't funny the first time by Indy is in too deep now
I have a feeling, that the battle at Velikie Luki will be overshadowed by Stalingrad later when historians write the history of the Eastern Front. Don't know why, just have this feeling...
Lol
Great Luki isn't called "Great" for nothing.
Nah man you're crazy 😂
The number of surrounded troops is much larger at Stalingrad than Velikie Lukie. More importantly, Stalingrad is on the only major transport route between central Russia and the Black Sea and Caucasus (the Volga). So yes, if Germany ends up beaten it is like;ly that Stalingrad, not Velikie Luki, will be seen as a turning point.
Great job putting this history into an intreging and captivating format!
I can't wait for Saturday morning!
Thank you very much! See you on next Saturday morning!
Some of the graphics today were next level! nicely done
Thank you very much!
The Red Army was smart to attack where the Axis front was the weakest in the Hungarian, Romanian and Italian sectors. Too bad they did not reach Rostov fast and apply the biggest decisive defeat to the Axis.
It's their turn ...
Don't worry, Operation Bagration will remedy that.
The Reds are still short of trucks.
The rail grid/nexus still goes through Stalingrad.
And the weather is foul.
BUT, Italy, Romania, Hungary are all removed from the Ostheer allied OB. Finland is permanently chilled out.
I’ve thought about what would happen if the resources used for Ostrogozhsk-Rossosh and Voronezh-Kastornoye operations would be deployed in a drive on Rostov. And I still can’t figure out the answer. I think it’s one of the biggest questions in military history.
Indy I love when you greet and say good bye to the opening phone calls it seems so much more natural and pleasant
The Videos Are Getting Better and better , thank you Indy ,TimeGhost and all the Patreon Army you Guys are the GOATS,
Thank you! We are really glad to hear that:)
This episode made me dig deeper about "War path" of my great-grandfather's brother and I found that he most likely shared the sky with the Night Witches this week in the Caucasus Offensive under the command of the 4th Air Force Army. Sad thing that he never talked about the war with his niece (my grandmother) and all we have about him is dry reports about his dive bomber regiment participating in certain battles, but it's still interesting to follow his "war path" with your series so thank you again for your work!
We are glad to hear that, thank you!
The scale of the offensives all across the Eastern Front by the Soviets are staggering aren't they?
Da
hey guys, why do you blame Stalin for all the military failures of the USSR. The army was not ready for war, regardless of whether it had officers from the tsarist army or not. The army did not conduct any defensive exercises before the war. The army did not request any things like radio stations or airplanes before the war. It is necessary to blame the people who are responsible for the preparation of the army in the 30s. Moreover, despite the gulags and executions, Stalin carried out industrialization in a short period and turned a country where only grain was grown for export into a huge factory. This is what played the main role in the victory. BUT IF NOT FOR STALIN, THE USSR WOULD HAVE WON EARLIER, OF COURSE. delusion.
@@redcat4189 Stalin's paranoic purges left the army mostly in the hands of incompitent loyalists. Resulting in for example the technologically more adcanced and overall larger military to be humiliated in winter war. Stalin also continuously denied his officers requests for tactical retreat in the face of overwhealming Axis force which lead to encirclement, destruction and capture of hundreds of thousands of soviet soldiers and equipment in the Kiev pocket alone. One of the encircled officers was Nikita Khrustchev who later blamed Stalin personally for a lot of the soviet military blunders after the war.
And about the industrialization, Stalin authorized the use gulag prisiners as basically slaves in horrible working conditions and exported wheet even during the horrible Holodomor famine. Soviet union was industrilized but at a horrible cost for the people.
unlimited supply of cannon fodder...
Total war...
This was my greatest birthday present in my life, thanks for picking the 15th to upload this and fill me with the best gift of all.
16:10 The animation! Just: WOW!
@Thanos Glad you like it :) We have a very dedicated & talented team working hard on every episode & always improving
I really appreciate the fact that the call is about the Casablanca conference.
Despite how horrible the conditions are for 6th Army, fighting on made a lot sense from a military perspective. If 6th army surrenderd, the soviet troops fighting the Stalingrad pocket then for example could be used to crush what is left of the German army in the Caucasus.
If you read Manstein's memoir that's pretty much the argument he made. Its actually a miracle the German Eastern Front didn't collapse in both the winter of 1941-42 AND 42-43 (I won't mention Cherkassy and 44).
@@dongately2817 I always viewed Mannstein as the reallife version of Grandadmiral Thrawn (he is a very fascinating Star Wars character), this guy was a real military genius and saved the German army countless times.
@@thanos_6.0 - He gets a lot of flak nowadays for his memoir being self-serving and blaming Hitler for every defeat. It wasn’t Manstein’s decision to invade the Soviet Union. He was given a (nearly impossible) task and told to do his duty. I’m sure he deflected some blame but his fighting retreat in 43-44 should be seen for it’s merits. The brutality and war crimes, on both sides but initiated by the Germans, seem to cloud people’s judgement and prevent them from viewing the Eastern Front from an unbiased, purely military perspective.
Having said that - it’s my belief that the only way the Nazis could have defeated the Soviet Union would have been for them to behave as liberators of the Soviet people, instead of genocidal conquerors.
@@dongately2817 I agree
@@dongately2817 I wonder what was the reasons they didn't pose themselves as liberators. I can imagine lots Soviets would cooperate. There must be lots of people not happy about how Soviets runs the country.
Thanks!
Thank you very much! You make this show happen!
Love the talk on the philosophical differences between US and British command, would love to have more of that sort of thing.
Thank you for the great entertainment. I started watching your show dec 7 2021. Thank you for the series it’s awesome!
The 6th army has become a sacrificial lamb. They had to keep holding out in order to help preserve the rest of the front.
Similar fate was for Chuikov’s army before. He served as a bait for the 6th army, to tie them up aiming to encircle them a bit later.
Yep. Seems like Stalingrad is the place for armies to serve as bait.
Tack!
thank you once again for making my Saturday morning, I have never come across any history that brings the war to life like you guys do, you get to see the war as a whole and not focused on particular sections, much like someone actually living through it, and thank you for once again making this a personal talk from Indy just for me, without any distractions of folks scribbling pointlessly in the background, I am sure those interns are vital cogs in the machine that produces the show but on screen they are just a distraction.
Thank you! We will take your feedback into account.
4:57
Oh cool, is that a Gewehr 41 I wonder? I think so! Still working on reverse-engineering the SVT-40 gas piston system I suppose, that 'Bang' gas system apparently never did work particularly well.
Great video as always, and THANK YOU for removing extra people from the background.
So...Is your staff on break?
Hmm, there's a war on; please turn off the lights.
Great channel & Greatest Team!
The staff have been handed rifles and redeployed to the front.
@Paul Thank you for the kind words of support!
I have finally caught up with the most recent video having watched eavry single episode in order
Congrats Daisy! I did the same thing when I caught on to The Great War when it was already a year and half in!
The Hell of Stalingrad was such that i do not wish it upon my worst enemy.
And Russians too suffered immensily even now, as they saw their comrades, friends and maybe even relatives die by thousends in the cold uncaring freezing snow and ice, just as winter made frozen statues out of the corpses of so many nationalities the had to walk and drive over.
At some point drugding trough the snow and ice it did not matter whose side you were on. For only frostbite and death were everyday companions.
In 50 years, I hope all of humanity remember Paulus as Friedrich "José" Paulus and just accepts it as fact
the hungarians might need to add a couple more regiments to their divisions. they should have enough army xp by now surely
Lol
They lack the equipment and manpower.
@@artemiostheelder they need to open their console command bar then
The Hungarians (and Romanians) pay dearly for cooperating with the Nazis. Admittedly they had limited options in 1940/41, but they were forced into a war with the Soviet Union they didn't really want. (Well maybe the Romanians wanted Moldova back.
Hmm not sure if Moldova was part of the Molotov-Ribbentrop agreement or just a 1940 Soviet power play.
@@robertkras5162 it was. So was the Baltic and Finland.
Great film clips. Thank you for a marvelous presentation.
Thank you for watching!
Just joined the army wooo! Keep the videos coming guys! Youre all rockstars!
@Sharkkangaroo THANK YOU! The TimeGhost Army is seriously the best audience on TH-cam, and the best fans out there. Plus, our army will be unstoppable with a Sharkkangaroo on our side!
Well thank you for releasing episode on 15th january 16th is my birthday so it is a nice present from this channel. Thank you guys.
Happy birthday! Glad to hear you enjoy our content!
One more thing to correct here : Allied Campaign in Italy was about more than just divert German reinforcements from France and Eastern Front (though that was a big factor too) New interim Italian goverment after Fall of Mussolini in July 1943 , started surrender negotiations with Allies BUT they were insisting NOT to surrender till Allies land on mainland Italy and until then they declared they would remain in Axis due to fear of possible German reprisals towards Italian civilian population. For Allies the strategic and diplomatic oppurtunity here was too good and too big to miss. Once Italy surrendered , Italian Navy could (and actually did) switch sides and join Allies turning Mediterranean to complate Allied control open to Allied shipping convoys (that would mean about two or three times increase in Allied shipping capacity by sailing from Gibraltar , Mediterranean and Suez in short cut and therefore enlarge Allied shipping transport capacity multiple times without constructing any new vessels). 15th US Air Force also intended to capture Italian air bases at Foggia in Central Italy to enlarge Allied strategic air offensive against Germany from south by November 1943. And all Italian garrisons they vacated in Aegean Sea , Eastern Mediterranean and Balkans would (and did) be replaced by German units that would further suck their deplating reserves (aside from German Army Group C in Italy with 20 German divisions , OKW had to send 15 or so extra more German divisions to disarm and replace Italian garrisons in Balkans and Dordenecasse)
Since Allies were still not ready for D-Day , Cross Channel invasion (they were not even in preliminary planning stage for D-Day at this point , they would start its initial studies in April 1943) and Operation BOLERO the transfer of US forces and build up in UK was still behind schedule due to shipping crisis and U-Boat threat in Battle of Atlantic. German Air Force over Europe still had huge superiorty over Western Europe (air superiorty for Allies was a must have coındition for Cross Chanel invasion) and without any Allied Transportation Plan to interdict Railway and Road network in Europe-which was the best in the world-Germans could reinforce any threatened sector faster than Allies could transfer and land their reinforcements) , focusing on Mediterranean Theater in 1943 to clip Axis further by taking Italy out of war , was the only rational strategic choice for Allies.
Yes, I agree. But the question is, was there still any merit to this campaign after D-Day? They weren't going to suck in much further Germans divisions, all the damage that could have been done to the Germans strategically had been done, the Med was open to Allied shipping. And neither the US and in particular the British could afford to keep those divisions in theater. The US withdrew 3 divisions and a Corps HQ for Dragoon, the French their Expeditionary Corps, the Canadians their I Corps and the British withdrew and disbanded even more divisions during the winter of 44-45. Either to keep other divisions at strength or to send them to Western Europe or Greece. They might as well have dug in somewhere north of Rome for the rest of the war.
@@chaptermasterpedrokantor1623 Actually pursuit of Germans furtner north from Rome , diverted more and more German divisions and reinforcerments to Italian peninsula to stabilise the front there after Gustav Line was breached and Rome fell in May-June 1944. Germans pulled two divisions (Herman Goering Panzer and 29th Panzergranedier Divisions) from Army Group C defending Italian front BUT they sent five German infantry division to Italy to compansate that in August-September 1944 to halt Allied advance before it reached Northern Italy where German war economy was extremely dependent on raw materials , Italian heavy industry (mostly established in Northern Italy around Milan and Po Valley) and food growth production in Po Valley known as German troops and Armaments Minister Speer as "A Land of Milk and Honey to Suck out" Capturing Northern Italy in 1944 would be a huge blow to German war economy.
You make many good points. Churchill was the one who really pushed for an Italian invasion and in the initial months of that campaign, especially the quick taking of Sicily, it seemed to have been most Justified, but soon after when things got bogged down and the Germans decided they would fight on without the Italian Army, it turned out to have been a blunder.
You're absolutely right that it seemed like a very rational choice at a time and that the extra year allowed the Allies to prepare themselves for the onslaught they would face in France and ready the massive logistical undertaking that it would entail, but all that would mean that it would have been better to take southern Italy and then just be on defense for the rest of the war since the continued offensives were ineffective in defeating the well-entrenched Germans, who remained in Italy up until the surrender in May 1945. Also, the delay of a year gave the Germans more time to improve the Atlantic Wall.
@@theoutlook55
Atlantic Wall was mostly a propaganda piece , ineffective thin line of fortifications that could not hold Allied landings on D-day even for few hours because SHEAF and 21st Army Group made every preperation and planning possi,ble in this available time not to fail in landings. Real fight of Normandy Campaign was during following weeks when German reinforcemernts began pouring in.
@@theoutlook55 Believe or not , you can check any resource , neither Allies nor German generals nor OKW expected that Kesselring and Hitler (former in over optimistic delusion , the latter in obssisive narcisim ) expected Germans (very stupidly as it turned out) commit 20-25 German divisions in dead end of Italian peninsula therefore wasting their resouces before decisive campaigns of 1944. The main idea and expectation of both Allies and Germans was after surrender of Italy , Germans would retreat to Apennine Mountains and Italian Alps in 1943-44 winter to hold Northern Italy , NOT Central Italy and holding Rome for a few more months as it turned out to be. Kesselring in a weird over optimism convinced Hitler to hold Central Italy and Rome by committing more and more divisions to Italy and leaving the cupboard bare in France before D-Day (after Anzio landings further five German divisions sent from France to Italy in January 1944) and Soviet Bagration offensive in Eastern Front just for face saving image of holding Rome !
German Army Group C defending Northern Italy was routed , destroyed and unconditionally surrendered in April 1945 (one week before Unconditional Surrender of Germany) because of Operation GRAPEHOT , Final Allied Offensive in Northern Italy towards Po Valley in 8-29 April 1945. This offensive was a massive victory for Allies in Italy which put them into Austria before surrender of German Army in May 1945.
I'm learning new things every week.
This is an amazing channel. Thank you for your work.
Thank you for your kind words! If you would like to support us, consider joining our TimeGhost Army: bit.ly/WW2_177_CO
Sicily huh? Well let's see if the Italian navy can do something to prevent an invasion. Looking forward to it (well not that we don't already know how that will evolve but anyway, let's wait for more). Good job as always dear Time Ghost team.
Thank you for watching!
I like very much your overview of the competing strategies or philosophies of the British & the Americans, can't wait for the next regular, Indy!
I’ll bet that at times the top brass became giddy with the sense of creating history. Though I doubt any realized the extent the feeling had to be nearly overwhelming.
Indy... that is one beautiful tie and surely bespoke vest.
The plan for Italy was fine as a distraction plan but not a war winning plan. Landing in Italy and occupying German divisions there to prevent their use in the Eastern front and later in France was good. But trying to push up though Italy was never a good idea. It would take 10 allied casualties for every German defending in Italy and then in the Alps to get into German via Italy.
That is why I always hate it when people say Clark made the incorrect decision in taking Rome when he took it "for glory". First, Clark was one of the few Officers of a high enough rank to know that D-Day was happening the next day after he took Rome. So if he was actually doing it for "glory" (which he wasn't) he would have known it would have been massively overshadowed in less then 24 hours. 2nd, people always ignore that Clark was ordered by US General George Marshall (the highest ranking US General in WW2) and British General Harald Alexander to take Rome. In Marshall's case it was a direct order in Alexander's case it was a order of "if Rome is open, take it". People today act like had Clark tried to surround the German troops retreating north that 1. he would have actually surrounded them all (almost all his mobile forces were taken away for D-Day) and 2. they act like surrendering those troops would have done something to end the war drastically faster. The Germans would have just sent another 1-2 divisions down to Italy to plug the lines or they could have just retreated even further North in Italy to even better defensive lines. That is all Italy is basically, is one great defensive line after another. Clark, Marshall and most British generals knew WW2 was never ending through Italy like Churchill wanted earlier in the war. Italy had become a side show after D-Day to occupy Axis forces. So long as the German's still kept troops to defend that front the troops in Italy from all nations (there were like 8 nations fighting in the 2 allied armies in Italy) were doing their job by making it easier for the allied armies in France and the Eastern front to get into Germany easier and faster. Could the allies have pushed the Germans through the Alps? Yes they could have. But the casualties rate would have been insane and what would the purpose of that have been in a war that was already over essentially? Clark being a veteran of WW1 did what he was ordered and took Rome when told to and didn't launch reckless attacks against the German lines unless directly ordered to (those were made to ensure the Germans were still in Italy in force). People also forget that Rome was a huge Allied war goal, the first Axis capital of the war to fall and was a city that was supposed to have fallen months prior to when it did. SO When Clark had the opportunity to now take Rome both General Marshall and Harold Alexander told him to take it rather then TRY to surround a few thousand German troops that did nothing in the grand scheme of the war ending. While on the other hand taking Rome did have importance in the global grand war scheme.
I was listening to this being talked about on the We Have Ways podcast and this gets a big mention in Antony Beevor's book on WWII and they were saying how nobody else mentions this notion that Clark took Rome for "glory" as you say. Apparently when pressed on it, Beevor couldn't confirm a source. In his Arnhem book he also apparently states that German troops were just better man for man than Allied ones which is increasingly being questioned and disproven by more recent and upcoming historians.
There were many practical ways to bypass German defensive lines in Italy like amphibious landings in their rear (Allies tried that in Termoli in October 1943 then in Anzio January 1944 ) but IF they were planned , supported and reinforced right with all necessary assets provided otherwise amphibious operations are big invitations to disaster (Gallipoli 1915 , Dieppe 1942) against a quickly reacting opposion like Germans. When after November 1943 all Allied amphibious assets ships and landing crafts and LSTs along with air fleets were transferred from Mediterranean Theater to UK for D-Day , (it is one of the big reasons while SHINGLE , that is Anzio landings , failed to achive decisive results because of lack of landing crafts and LSTs which were either transferred or in process of transfer to Britain for D*Day in January 1944. Due to scarcity of landing craft and LSTs , initial wave of landing force in Anzio was very weak and landing of of entire 6th Corps was divided to three or or landing echalons or waves within one week that neutralised any suprise and speed advantage for attackers so corps commander Lucas played wise and put up defending the bridhgehead in first priorty.
I do not judge Clark too harshly nor blame for every failure and setback in Mediterranean after 1943 summer. He was personally brave , making himself as an example under fire and in risky operations (like contacting Vichy French officers in French North Africa clandestinely before TORCH Landings) BUT he was too ambitious and glory hounding for his own good , sidelining not only his collegues and subordinates (like Walker or Truscott) but even his superiors (any other army group commander other than Firld Marshal Harold Alexander who was a fine coordinatior and diplomat but not an autoritarian imposing figure , would sack Clark for insubordination in 1944 instead Clark had him relieved) and press and public attention seeker. On this last regard he was not that different from Montgomery but Montgomery had played a huge role shaping and training and putting up a functional operational doctrine for entire Allied armies (both British Commonwealth Armies and less so but still influential for US Army) and drawing operational plans that were more sucessful than failures , Clark remained as army commander in Italy who constantly missed tactical and operational oppurtunities like AVALANCHE , Salerno Landings in September 1943 (where he saved the situstion he caused by personal example in beachead) or trying to march Rome instead of sticking original DIADEM plan and destroying if not most then a considerable portion of 14th German Army cornered south of Anzio (two German corps , that is extra 40.000 men) and could be cut off at Valmenterore after breakout from Anzio in May 1944. A loss that big would force OKW to divert even more replacements and reinforcements to Italian peninsula in 1944 summer and autumn if 15th Army Group would not reach Po Valley and Alps in Northern Italy but 1944-45 winter. I hate to play what if so I will leave it here but Clark's insubordination , press and glory hounding issues made him a liability for Allied cause. He had his undeniable strengths and positive traits but his personal priorties usually screwed these up.
"It would take Ten Allies Casaulties For Every Allied One..." is a little too over exagerration. At the and of Italian Campaign April 1945 , Allied 15th Army Group deployed in Italy (despite denied and sucked dry of every reinforcement , amphibious assets that were diverted to France before and after D-Day) suffered 336.000 casaulties in total (killed , wounded , captured , missing , got sick , deserted etc all included) while German Army Group C defending Italy (with defensive firepower AND mountainous range and river obstacle advantages) lost 542.000 casaulties in total most of them prisoners. (source Second World War , John Keegan , History of WWII , Lidell Hart)
Original operational orders of Clark in Operation DIADEM (Big Offensive for Fourth Battle of Cassino and breakout from Anzio ) from Alexanders HQ (Alexander was Clark's superior) was after breakout was achived in Cisterna on 23-26 May 1944 TO SEVER the roads leading to Rome at Valmentore , that would trap two full German corps at south of Anzio perimeter and while would not force them to surrender (Germans were experts in breaking out from encirclements and they displayed in Eastern Front over and over and later in Falaise Gap with improvised battlegroups) Clark uniliterally and deliberately disobeyed and changed Alexander's orders and diverted 6th Corps (including Howze's 1st US armored Division that was fully mobile) to Rome whose advance was blocked thanks to retreating 14th German Army forces (40.000 , two full corps including Hermann Goering Panzer Division that was deployed south of Rome. Lost or severe deplation of two corps could not be rectified by only "one or two extra German divisions" Even after DIADEM concluded and Rome fell in June 1944 , German Army Group C suffered appox 50.000 casaulties in this Allied offensive within three weeks in May 1944 and OKW had to divert five more German divisions from its deplated reserves to Italy to compansate and they barely halted 15th Army Group after that actually on Gothic Line south of Po river in October 1944 , if Clark obeyed his original orders in DIADEM/BUFFOLO operations in May 1944 (before D-Day when "war was not over for anyone at all without 80 year hindsight" we have now) he could increase German casaulties in Italy to probably 75.000 or 80.000 during DIADEM/BUFFOLO operations at south of Rome in May and June 1944 and force OKW to send even more divisions they did not have to Italy , something that would make Eisenhower in Normandy or Zhukov in Eastern Front very happy. Reaching Po Valley in 1944 summer or autumn would be a huge victory for Allies since hard pressed German war economy depended a lot on captured Italian industry in Northern Italy.
Eventually it was Walker's 36th US Division that saved the situation , broke through German lines in a daring night attack to Velletri on 31st May and opened the road to Rome. Clark first rewarded Walker with Silver Star then relieved him from his division command and sent him back to States.
Clark was never diciplined for his insubordination , gross public and press attention seeking (Patton called Clark "just too damn slick to be general") and tactical/operational failures of course ( though they were not disasterous as his critics over exagerrate too) , on the contrary after Alexander was promoted as Commander in Chief Mediterranean Theater , Clark got his previous job and promoted to commander of 15th Army Group in Italy in December 1944 BUT he probably learned a few lessons from his earlier mistakes in past. In fact when he got Alex's job , he let his army commanders (Eighth Army commander Richard McCreery and Fifth Army commander Lucien Truscott) complately free to plan and execute Spring Offensive in Northern Italy towards Po Valley. That offensive (Operation GRAPESHOT) launched in first week of April 1945 , was an absoute sucess and victory for Allies. By the time it was halted on 30th April 1945 , entire Northern Italy was liberated , German Army Group C (two full German Armies) were destroyed , 290.000 German prisoners were captured , German Army Group C unconditionally surrendered (one week before Unconditional Surrender of Germany) and 15th Army Group passed through Alps (all in three weeks) was entering to Austria and Yugoslavia
One more thing to correct here : Allied Campaign in Italy was more than just divert German reinforcements from France and Eastern Front (though that was a big factor too) New interim Italian goverment after Fall of Mussolini in July 1943 , started surrender negotiations with Allies BUT they were insisting NOT to surrender till Allies land on mainland Italy and until then they declared they would remain in Axis. The strategic and diplomatic oppurtunity here was too good and too big to miss. Once Italy surrendered , Italian Navy could (and actually did) switch sides and join Allies turning Mediterranean to complate Allied control open to Allied shipping convoys (that would mean about two or three times increase in Allied shipping capacity by sailing from Gibraltar , Mediterranean and Suez in short cut and therefore enlarge Allied shipping transport capacity multiple times without constructing any vessels). 15th US Air Force also captured Italian air bases at Foggia in Central Italy to enlarge Allied strategic air offensive against Germany from south by November 1943. And all Italian garrisons they vacated in Aegean Sea , Eastern Mediterranean and Balkans would (and did) be replaced by German units that would further suck their deplating reserves (aside from German Army Group C in Italy with 20 German divisions , OKW had to send 15 or so extra more German divisions to disarm and replace Italian garrisons in Balkans and Dordenecasse)
@@cobbler9113 Yeah it is just another of those big WW2 myths that were started decades ago that have stuck. There are a lot that get to me that I wish I could correct the public WW2 fan on.
7:31 I heard von Mackensen and had to do a double take. The Last Hussar rides again. 😅
The Axis, who were on a string of victories in Russia, North Africa, and the Pacific, are now being on the retreat. But the Allies, now confident that they have truly beaten the enemy will find out, the enemy hasn’t lost their will to fight. And fight they will. They will continue on to fight. But can the Allies overcome them? Uncertainty is ahead. Godspeed.
My Russian professosrd at Duke University said he and his wife were two of only 11 members of the faculty at the University of Leningrad to survive the siege. Serving in the Soviet Army during the siege, he said they mostly fought the Spanish Blue Division.
I graduated from Duke in 2009! Which professor was this?
@@ScottyShaw I graduated in 1968. His name was professor Milhail Pavlov. My major was German. If Duke had a “minor” I would have had enough hours. I was in ROTC. Since I could speak German and Russian the USAF sent me to aircraft maintenance school and then to the Philippines
it's so refreshing to see more and more axis defeats every week
On January 12 1943, General Leclerc declares that the Fezzan campaign is over. After an offensive that lasted around 3 weeks, the Free French now control all the towns and oasis in southwest Libya, take a thousand prisoners and seize important equipment. But above all, the road to Tripoli is open to them. The Italians are driven out of Fezzan, now administered by Colonel Raymond Delange.
On January 13, the Free French make junction with elements of the British 8th army at Hun, about 300 km south of Syrte, and Charles de Gaulle praise the adventure of Leclerc and his companions on the BBC, “an achievement that is in no way inferior to the most beautiful ones in our great history”, he assures, before adding: "With the victory of our troops from Chad, the enemy saw rising, once again, that flame of the French war which he had believed extinguished in disaster and treason, but which, not for a single day , never stopped burning and growing under the breath of those who did not despair.”
P.S : can't say i'm surprised but i'm still disappointed there is no mention at all of the Free French campaign in the Fezzan either here on the youtube channel nor on instagram.
To be fair, there are Nations across the World whose Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen will not get what consider to be their Fair Due.🇦🇺
Charles De Gaulle was an political opportunist, He shamed himself and his nation with stupid vain glorious ideas. So many Americans and British Commonwealth soldiers died so that he could achieve his political ambitions.....
@@andymoore9977 will you say the same of Edward Benes ordering the assasination of Reinhard Heydrich that brought reprisals to Czech villages?
Wonderful documentaries. Error caption reads, the battle os Stalingrad 1949!
It means the footage is from the 1949 movie "The Battle of Stalingrad"
The soviets attempt to break the siege of Leningrad ? would say: They would say: The best we can is to open a corridor.
Excellent as always!
Thank you very much!
Great job I know you went to 20 min and I appreciated the explanation of the logistics of how to attack and where to attack. I am always amazed at how long it takes to build up a 500,000 fighting man army and all the stuff they need for it, it just blows my mind. I didn't realize the complexities of what the US and Britain were facing on were to put resources I knew about it but just not to that depth. The more and more I think about it even knowing everything I know I'm not for sure if I would have changed the plan they came up with. What would you guy's have changed at this point in the war?
I love you guys. Great job as always!
"Rock the Hungarians" was actually Indy's history glam-metal band back in 1993.
Great work
@Sam Thank you
*Churchill setting the location of opening a second front*
The Britisch Army: *Gallipoli flash-backs*
I liked the first 2 episodes of the new year with the office staff on the set. Hope they return.
Hey Indy just a fun fact for this episode, I'm hungarian and, here when somebody say:"I can't handle this cold weather" or "I don't like the winter" we answer them "and who cares The Battle at the Don river was worst"
Wow, even to this day Hungarian language preserved this? This is impressive. Thank you for sharing it.
One of the strongest suggestions for an allied invasion was a push for the ice cream stand at picadilly, based on a) ice cream! b) low losses.
@Fred Nurke the being without ice-cream was something I suspected. A convoy bringing ice-cream was new to me. Should be good for morale, though. When things are rough even small luxuries can give a real boost to morale.
Hi Indy
Another intense week.
So axis losing every where.. And allies planning and planning.. No breakthrough..
Stalingrad horror continues..
Still how far this war will go?
Thanks for another great week..
Thanks for watching!
Great phone call this week saying goodbye is pretty common at this point that we've gotten used to the war but it's not to be taken granted for :)
I really cant shake the feeling that the Soviets have just gained the Tactical initiative and Advantage over the Whermacht and OKH You can see how disastrous the dig in stand firm orders are when all thats happening is that the main fighting units are tied up in fighting their way out of constant encirclement actions by the Soviets
I’m confident the Führer and the general staff will regain the initiative later this year. Based on the topography, I think the Kursk Oblast region is a likely place to try and regain the initiative, once the weather is better. Plus, some new and exciting weapons are forthcoming. They will surely turn the tide.
Right?
@@edlawrence6553 yeahh Right wunderwaffe..of course!
Thank you for the episode, Indy and crew! Saying though that Leningrad was supplied by "sporadic supply lines" makes I sound way too casual and disorganized. It was a titanic well coordinated effort and not a sporadic supply line here and there
I think they mean that the well coordinated effort was only sporadically effective due to circumstances beyond Soviet control.
@@porksterbob yes, I have no doubt they did. Just want to keep common misconceptions out of these great series
is it true that churchill wanted to play the long game and capture the balkans to prevent soviet influence there after the war?
Yes, it was also why (SPOILER ALERT) the British went in to occupy Greece in 1944 after the Germans abandoned it. Churchill also continued lobbying for a Balkan landing well into 1945 but the Americans didn't want to antagonise the Soviets.
Churchill's coverage of WWII speaks a little on this with opening fronts partially to keep influence in the areas, though landing craft always never being enough to go around was always a problem.
That theory I feel never had legs. (I no longer have Churchill's history of the war so I can't check if he ever even made the claim.)
The British occupation of abandoned Greece helped prevent Greece from going communist, but it almost did anyway, via elections, and the communist party gets a large number of seats for decades after the war. That was the best outcome. Even this came out because the Germans wanted to shorten their lines as things became desperate.
The American view was Churchill's Balkan interest was more in extending the British Empire than actual efforts to defeat Germany or to prevent eventual Soviet influence.
As it happens Tito doesn't need much Soviet (or Allied) help to defeat the Germans in what becomes Yugoslavia, and is never occupied by the Red Army as Poland/Hungry/Czechoslovakia/Romania. (Tito might even have fought the Allies if they occupied Yugoslavia.)
Indeed, during the war it was Churchill that prefers the Allies support Tito's communists to other partisan groups in the region. Also Churchill will participate in Yalta where the spheres of influence are delimited.
@@robertkras5162 You're wrong on one front. Tito WAS getting critical arms and ammo support.
Manpower, he had that in spades. The boys were motivated... to say the least.
He was getting enough ammo to keep a slew of Italian and Kraut divisions tied down.
And yet, his crew had no weapons factories; and there were only so many Axis weapons laying around to be re-purposed.
So you had London supporting Tito in a major way, while scheming to hold off Bolshevism in Greece. Oh, well.
@@davidhimmelsbach557 I didn't say he wasn't getting arms/ammo - but Tito was successful at self-liberating without the help of the Red Army and was in good enough review with Stalin (at the time) to avoid a Red Army occupation.
At the 4-minute mark a correction is in order; von der Chevallerie was not then 1.Armee commander. 1.Armee was in France.
I probably shouldn't feel too sorry for the German troops in Stalingrad as their defeat was necessary for an Allied victory in the war and many of them might well be complicit in grotesque atrocities, but those conditions are absolutely awful. Genuinely impressive that they still held out at this point.
Pain is international. Could have been you, or could have been me if we were born in a different time and a different place.
What was it Sparty said? Something about "suffering has no political, religious, ethnic, or ideological color."
They came to murder every Russian they could find. We should have as much sympathy for the Germans in Stalingrad as you would for someone who broke into your house with the intent to murder you and your family, but was in fact wounded and then killed in the attempt.
Its human nature to sympathize when you hear of suffering but remember they were suffering because they were trying to exterminate millions to steal their land
Should we blame Halder for the German defeat? Maybe he didn't commit enough troops to the southern front.
Cheers to the weekend everyone!
August von Mackensen managed to remain a very important figure during the First World War.
Eberhard von Mackensen was also a commander on the Eastern front during the Second World War.
August von Mackensen would say: That's my boy.
Great channel! Looking forward to the new episode each week.
Good to hear something about Leningrad again. Will there be a special about that at one point? A long siege with many dead, but too drawn out to get much attention in the regular episodes.
@Arjen Drost Thank you for your loyal viewership. It's wonderful knowing how engaged our audience is, and we appreciate you following along with us as we navigate this war. Stay tuned
I cannot remember seeing a special how the medical forces are organised among the waring sides. Sanitäter, медсестра, medics, etc?
By now all sides should have alot of wounded casualties to deal with?
That would be a good topic for a special episode.
We'll think about that one for the future. It might be better as an Out Of The Foxholes question though if anyone cares to something similar in the forums
@@WorldWarTwo I can imagine this could be actually enough material to do 2 films on medical services in the axis and allied countries.
WWII is for most part stil a pre- antibiotic medicine. But surgeries are preformed on all fronts, masses of wounded have to be cared for in the rear - but how? In Germany the Charité University clinic with Prof. Sauerbruch is operating revolutionary limb procedures an partially operates in a bunker on the campus.
In the USA the mercy ships provide medical care for many soldiers. But how does it look in Japan, UK or Italy? Or Russia? Mr Fleming and his penicillin is only being developed (you spoke about it before).
But how is the general civil and military hospital care organised during war and the logistics thereto?
And is it working? How many wounded return to the front? Or other service anyhow? Was the red cross on the military vehicles respected? And how were captured medics/doctors treated?
I'm glad to supply you with suggestions.
Thanks for another great video!
Thanks for watching!
It's not only Britian being an island nation. They had maybe one real army that was going to be deployed to europe. The 7th would be stripped and would command the smaller half of the Italian front, but the only real British army would be the 2nd. They couldn't risk their only army for the war in france and 43, the risk of defeat and destruction was way too high.
I'v heard that Normandy is very pretty between June and August. Got some nice beaches too!
Without air superiorty and lack of shipping and landing craft no it is not
Marshall was nuts, there's no way the western allies could have been ready to invade France in '43. The buildup of troops and material would take until '44 to complete, even without the Italian campaign. Meanwhile what are you going to do? Sit on your hands while the Eastern front remains in the balance?
Comically Marshall even advocating invading France in 1942 (when British were overstretched and had no reserves for a such expedition and only a few US divisions were en route to UK) even fiercely defending that position by threatening British with shifting US resources to Pacific.
Marshall was like many leaders of the time way too optimistic.
Far too many leaders think their position, resources, skill and knowledge is somehow better than everyone else's.
There is some suggestion that the American generals like Marshall knew an invasion of France wasn't possible in 1942, and that they were instead reaching for an angle to get FDR to shift focus to the Pacific.
Since the Germany first policy was implemented & held historically, it might seem like a sure thing that everyone was on board with. It was however not without a great deal of controversy, as early in the war many American officers viewed Japan rather than Germany as the US' principal enemy. FDR's leadership was crucial there.
I think that whenever you say 'Death Corridor' you must speak into a microphone to an effects unit that will add massive reverb.
Just some additional info cause the report here was very brief on this aspect (not to criticize, I understand it is difficult to cover so many fronts in detail): this is considered to be the biggest defeat in the Hungarian military history ever, even though we had our fair share of wars over the centuries before this - including a huge defeat against the Mongols (it ultimately lead to the loss of that war and the loss of 2/3 of Hungary's population at the time, but looking at only the single battle the losses were smaller).
The 2nd army being "poorly equipped in general" did not include only the arms, e.g. the underwear inventory was at 30% by this time (most servicemen were down to 1 and kept patching it) based on the surviving reports of logistical NCOs and officers. Same reports and accounts of the survivors say that no platoon had more than 50% of adequate winter coats, so nobody had their own coat, each servicemen handed his to the next guy when their watch has ended. Almost all supplies sent by Hungary (intended for the Hungarian soldiers), all Hungarian tanks, all anti-tank weaponry, most of the artillery and mortars and machine guns were re-routed to the German troops fighting elsewhere (since the HU 2nd army was under German command, this could not be prevented by Jány), so there were mostly only rifles, hand weapons and the Hungarian grenades (which were designed with a trigger mechanism that was sensitive to impact, so they often didn't explode when hitting the snowy surface as it was soft).
Also, most of the Hungarian 2nd army soldiers weren't well-trained, as they were not meant to be frontline soldiers. For example: one of my great-grandfathers died during this defeat, he was a "határvadász" (translates directly as "border hunter"), he was meant to patrol the borders of Hungary, so basically to prevent unathorized entry via the "wilderness", that is what he was trained for.
Plus the mentioned fact that they held a lot of territory with comparatively few men. In overall this makes a perfect recipe for disaster. Utmost respect to the men who held out for days even among these circumstances.
You are the first poster I've seen that finally emphasizes that the Krauts were systematically stealing the weapons and supplies of their Axis allies -- all along -- something that I've brought up, over and over.
The rotten performance of the Romanians, Italians and Hungarians is ENTIRELY due to these thefts.
I rather doubt that OKH realized -- at all -- how extreme the Kraut theft campaign had become.
Looking back, the Bolsheviks were fools not to have punched through the Axis allied front even earlier during Uranus.
THIS, not Mars, was where Stavka should've put their emphasis. Then AGS-A would've been toast, PDQ.
@@davidhimmelsbach557 Well, yes. But it was also a factor that this wasn't the war these countries were prepared for. At least in Hungary when the equipment and the (few) vehicles (including the tanks) were designed the creators had a defensive war in mind, using mostly the Carpathian mountains as terrain. So there's that too.
Otherwise, I agree with you. Never understood why the Soviets didn't focus on the non-German armies before. Hard to imagine that they didn't have enough intel - not to precisely pinpoint the supply situation, just to know that it is vastly unbalanced.
@@Taltosmaster The Krauts weren't even allowing sufficient underclothes to get through. Yiikes.
The contrast with American allies is profound. The US is delighted to provide weapons, ammo, food, POL to its allies -- in just about any conflict. The buzzword is 'inter-operability.'
As for defensive warfare, that's what Kraut logistics deprivation made impossible. I'm amazed that the Axis allies hung on as long as they did. The howls back in Rome, Bucharest, and Budapest must have been epic -- all along. OKH WAS run by fools.
@@davidhimmelsbach557 As far as I know, it wasn't really a matter of letting them through, just that with the limited transportation capabilities the German needs were prioritized - until their needs weren't fulfilled, nobody else's would. So not like "let them suffer", but "our boys come first, second and third, then everybody else". Throughout history, many had this attitude towards their allies. Still, really not cool.
About the howls, I don't know the Italian and Romanian situations, but in Hungary the general public wasn't aware (letters coming from the frontline were censured as in every other country), and even though the HU military command and government did protest there wasn't really much that could be done. "Would you like to lose Northern Transylvania again? No? Thought so." Though, there were consequences. **spoiler alert** The mistreatment of the 2nd army was ultimately the last straw (already before this defeat), our governor/regent (since it was a kingdom but there was no king) ordered our prime minister to secretly broker a deal with the Allies: the moment they'll land in the Balkans, Hungary will surrender without a fight or even join them.
@@Taltosmaster The howls I'm referring to would've been the official ones. Individual letters back home would not have conveyed to their nation the fact their ENTIRE army was being screwed over.
BTW, you are incorrect about stuff just not being shipped forward. The stolen field guns ended up in Kraut infantry formations... and, especially, rear area 'police' units. WWI military technology was just about perfect for shooting up terrified civilians in the hinterland. As you dig through the TO&E of such formations, you run across a hodgepodge of out of date weapons of all types. The only thing missing: spears.
Should the Italians send trucks -- well -- consider them gone.
And yes, the Krauts knew what they were doing. This epic folly was due to their ethnocentrism and arrogance.
The Ostheer truck fleet was a mechanic's nightmare. Rommel went out of his way to talk up the American trucks in North Africa. They were ALL Fords. They were all new and practically identical. And they were a snap to maintain. (Rommel was a serious motor buff, yes, a real gear-head. Read his bio.)
[ He was also quite the shutter bug and diarist -- both forbidden to the ranks. ]
The Nazis were pure evil -- and fortunately -- amazingly incompetent at anything else. The German general staff couldn't bail out stupid. Their own pre-Barbarossa war gaming showed that defeat was a 'lock.'
Great work!!
Thank you!
Isn't Casablanca the place where FDR looked at Churchill lovingly and said "Here's looking at you, kid?" Still can't believe they made a city after that movie though.
@2:22 I see some resemblance between Indy and Konstantin....🙂🙂
I have foresight that the action on Guadalcanal is just the easies battle that is part of the American offensive. Right ?
James Jone's book the Thin Red Line describes the fighting on the Guadalcanal taking the hills
Indy,
Your clerk typists seem to be absent for this video. Were they conscripted? Wishing those young men and women the best of luck! Open positions with Gen. Darby i'm sure!
Best Regards,
Jay Deister
SSG USA ret.
@jay deister They have plenty to keep them busy, I assure you. 😉 Thanks for watching
Aw, no background assistants this week : (
Hope they're ok and just getting some much deserved rest
Background assistants are always in the background, even if sometimes more so and not only as of figure of speech and we thank them for the hard work.
ro2 (and ro1) maps mentioned this week: (Leningrad)
fun ro1 fact this time: the leningrad map had a 4-storey apartment building where you could enter every room. This seems cool until you're in a tank and have to try and flush out russian anti-tank from an apartment complex on your own with a handgun
A truly great channel with top-notch content