@@JoeHiYo If by reason you mean a cause for every effect, then I agree. Because when any measurement is made at the quantum level, the wave function collapses in a specific point in time yet takes an elapse of time to measure in which it cannot be seen where the cause occurred to make an effect. Therefore, you cannot rule out that there is no cause for any effect whatsoever, let alone enough to produce free will at any given moment. It's important to remember that any measurement needs some quantity of something identifiable, so that each point along the way needs something more than just location derived from quantum experiments for it to be measured. This is not easy stuff, but this is how I think about cause and effect and the main reason I doubt free will. If unclear still, I can say more...
@@JoeHiYo what if you can not see reality in how people act? what if you react to a Narcissistic person in such a way that it held you down for years, was it free will that made you react as you did?
@@JoeHiYo , I just asked because it seams that 96% of the people I grew up around were Narcissist on some level! I have studied Narcissism for 8 years, some people live years and years, even a life time never coming to seeing the Narcissism in their loved ones
LOL I just questioned above before I read your post>>> what if you can not see reality in how people act? what if you react to a Narcissistic person in such a way that it held you down for years, was it free will that made you react as you did?
It is true that in a specific moment that we can't determine what we want. However, a big part of being human is our ability to step back and see that what we want may not be good. We then have the ability to focus our attention on something different, and intentionally shape ourselves to be the sort of person who has different desires. There are many examples of this if you think about it.
@@chriscaliff8752 I believe in this context "to want" and "to will" aren't the same thing. As you've said you can step back and rethink what you want but this very 'stepping back' would already be an act of will. The question is would it be truly free if it's influenced by your past experience without which you wouldn't have 'stepped back' in the first place.
I just experienced and finished the Bhagavad Gita today for the first time -- thoroughly loved it and love Krishna. If you're Spiritual, you are blessed. Continue seeking, focus within, properly utilize Intellect and apply Reason in all you do, think, speak. Never allow men not going in the same direction as you, to sway you, influence you, making you vacilate. Continue on, like the guru's, mystics, sages, high preists, adepts, philosophers, theologians had in past times. Going within in the Heart is greater that going out. Sxience is great for physicality and out physical benefits; metaphysics and philosophy is for our Spiritual selves or ethereal forms -- cherish thy self always.
You cannot change the text. The structure is determined. Only the context remains free, the function can change. The drum 🥁 can make different sounds, follow a different beat. It remains a drum 🥁.
"Either our wills are determined by prior causes and we are not responsible for them, or they are the product of chance and we are not responsible for them." - Sam Harris
@@humlakullen our minds make a choice, then we concoct a rational reason for making that choice. Split-brain studies provide interesting results regarding this. Peace.
no , we can leave our home now and start to run naked in the street or we can shoot ourselves now and put an end to that. Or we can go and bet all your money on a boxe match... no one stop us to do that. And many people actually do.
@@francesco5581 No one randomly does those things. It's a chain of events that leads to that starting from birth. It's not completely random, and you don't have as much choice as you think.
@@ryanorourke701 but you actually can randomly do them if you want. then you can find excuses but at the end the choice is yours even not choosing to run now naked in the streets .
I think there is a metaphysics, and its rules provide for free will, but being metaphysical they are inherently beyond analysis. And that is likely necessary: if we could figure out how free will works, then it wouldn't be that. No physical description can work.
Now that I've watched EVERY episode, I'm obliged to Robert to make my first comment. While thinking deeply about these issues almost seems tortuous and circular, I'd say Robert has done yeoman's work to sharpen the debate down to two competing ideas -> (1) an anthropic idea that suggests life was purposed by a self existing god or substance or (2) an infinite possibilities Copernican idea that says we are here because we are inevitable, not because life is special. The first relaxes my shoulders and makes sense of consciousness, the fermi paradox, the lottery wins for each great filter, love, and the flight of a bird. The second forces me to reckon existence as an emergent property of endless possibilities. While I still feel this position is haunted by a meta law on causality, I accept it is a rational explanation for being Before I share my conclusion, I should admit my bias. I want to believe in a creator and believe existence was purposed. While plagued by the awareness of my own bias, if I were to place my bet, I would bet it on our existence as proof of a self-existing entity - whether fine tuned or the clockwork of infinite possibilities to produce something deterministically emergent. But once I adopt what feels like the more rational idea of a creator and causality and purpose, I have to come to grips with difficult ramifications of such a conclusion. How rational is a flawed world and existence in this view? How rational is the idea of a supreme intelligence that is unknowable unless we are a lab rat or the gum under the shoe for a different subject? How rational is it to go to the trouble of creating a Petri dish for life that only exists for a flash then gone for eternity to a random comet or eventual big freeze? If I'm forced to believe natural selection was purposed, what does that say about its creator? It is the most sadistic mechanism conceivable that requires endless death and suffering as a worthy exchange for progress. Once I face the ramifications of my bet, I shift my weight back to a more Copernican stance, put my money back in my pocket and explore other ideas where I know one at least one is true. But I am still not any closer to truth.
3:47 That was funny! 😆 Quantum randomness doesn’t get us off the hook for having responsibility for our choices. Otherwise it could replace “temporary insanity” as a legal defense for any heinous act. 👺
Similar to heat -- degrees. More options, more freedom. However, sometimes to few options is as bad as to many options. 360 degree motion in the physical and in mental. As we can walk backwards, forward, side to side, jump, climb mountains, dig hole. In the mind we can go back in memory, we can be still or meditate, or can predicte the future. Not free from the shackles of time. With proper use of the degree of freedom one may obtain, with a discipline mind and utilization of the Will a person can do unimaginable things as proven overtime by great people.
When the first atoms were "created" by virtue of certain conditions, under those same conditions could there have been any other result? What forced this initial result? ( and aren't these videos great? I feel bound to say Yes!).
@@snowmachinechopsit sure, but if I believe I am a carpenter I will limit myself to carpentry. If I believe I am human I will have far less limit. If I believe I am the fundamental force of the universe I have no limit.
Both Free Will and Awareness exist as ONE ENTITY . One can not exist without the other. If you have no Awareness, then your WILL to choose can not exist because you are not even aware what choices to pick... and if your WILL does not exist, then the will to focus and be aware can not also exist. This is OBSERVABLE REALITY through your own personal experience. Many misguided science people think that "Awareness with Free Will" is an illusion simply because it can not be identified by any means - a common error that science makes being bound by Infalsifiability PrincipleI that rhey imposed on themselves. Just because "Awareness with Free Will" is invisible as a non-physical Supernatural Entity, not part of this natural world, does not mean it does not exist. ...and the proof that Awareness is not natural but supernatural, not part of the physical world, is because it is free to make choices on its own, even free to believe in the Holy Spirit that has nothing to do with Physics. As science understands, in the Physical World governed by natural laws, FREEDOM can not exists which means physical matter are not free to make choices on its own because it is the physical laws that controls.... but our Awareness is free and can make choices on its own, proving that it is not part of this physical world. I believe that our Awareness is our immortal soul that did not come from this Universe but originated from the Supernatural Aware SOURCE or God. I will repeat to be clear, both Awareness and the WILL exist together as ONE ENTITY that I believe is our free immortal aware soul. It is free because it is not part of physical matter that, unfortunately, many godless ones define their whole being to be because they were corrupted by wannabe geniuses with this Infalsifiability Principle that limits science to material inquiry... When knowledge is being limited, ugly things can happen that may cause one to fall over the cliff. So, be very careful of what you swallow coming from these wannabe science geniuses....
5:59 Hmmm. I don’t have a satisfactory account THAT God responds when he prays, but he seems to think so. And as far as _both_ prayer AND quantum theory being “robust”, I’d be curious how he defines “robust”. 🤔
No such thing as "free" will. Yes, we make choices, but those choices are not free from the factors that determine them. And we don't ultimately choose those factors.
you can open your window and throw yourself out ..and i can do the same. It's the thing you lived (and the choices you have made) that have made your learn things and influence your decision making. Not only external factors.
Juan--So you were forced to post to this thread? If you have ever answered any "Why" question with anything other than "Because it was entirely force by prior physical events," then you don't really believe what you have posted.
juan 👍..we came into this world we had no choice ....on our DNA/mental health/physical/where tio be born health.etc etc etc.. acccording to clasical p[hysics is deterministic according quantum physics it is ununpredicatble i.e.in both cases you have no free will!!
@@zerototalenergy150 according to 2 views of both areas . The probabilistic part of the quantum world end when it meets some criteria and one of it can be consciousness (as said recently by Tollaksen and other scientists). Classical physic is deterministic only until it meets consciousness , that consciousness is deterministic too is only a "derivation" made by a part of scientists and philosophers
@@francesco5581 'you can open your window and throw yourself out ..and i can do the same.' - only hypothetically, unless you value proving someone on the internet wrong more than your own life. You can _imagine_ yourself doing it all you want but when actually faced with a ''choice'' of "to jump or not to jump" you would actually have no choice other than doing the most sensible thing at that very moment.
"I do not believe in free will. Schopenhauer's words: 'Man can do what he wants, but he cannot will what he wills,' accompany me in all situations throughout my life and reconcile me with the actions of others, even if they are rather painful to me. This awareness of the lack of free will keeps me from taking myself and my fellow men too seriously as acting and deciding individuals, and from losing my temper." - Albert Einstein
The action happens before the thought, But you experience it as the thought happening first and then the action happening. The thought comes after the action has happened. To justify the action. Where is the freewill in that?
I understand this is the conundrum, but I don’t understand why it’s a conundrum. Why attribute higher status to the action than to the thought? If the two are genetically linked, and if it simply takes a certain amount of time to process the thought, why should this imply that a process of free will did not determine the action? I just don’t understand why the time sequence of action followed by [conscious awareness of] the thought determining the action implies the action came first in terms of cause and effect.
Well, that’s probably true, but it also begs the question whether they _care_ if they sound like Deepak Chopra. If they don’t care, they don’t need to be careful.
@@Bassotronics Very funny. How is this for a proposal? We have free will while we are alive, and no consciousness at all after we die. We will be in exactly the same mental state as we were in 1792.
The Life-Desire is the Motor of Life, in direct extension, we have the Will, (Life-side) and Gravity, (Stuff-side) in further extension We have the (Basic-) Structure of the Consciousness, that is mirror'ed in the Rainbow, in it's most simple expression. Four of the Colors/Abilities makes our electronic devises work, Mr. Kuhn should forget about neuroscience, brains and subatomic forces. (In understanding of Consciousness)
Amen at 3:50, if you are willing to give up freewill, you are in flow in "quantum randomness". If you are in flow with quantum randomness, you are indeed free. What is the prayer? "that His will be done on earth as it is in heaven"?
While King David received revelations, Solomon asked for understanding. Therefore, Ecclesiates. Meaningless! Vanity of vanities! All works under the sun is a grasp of wind, vexing of the spirit.
Just imagine watching a relatively infinitely long movie on a ni infinitely large screen. If you use your free will to pick a random part of the movie, that part of the movie may seem random or free, but it was always a part of the movie.😊
The evidence is overwhelmingly that indeterminism makes no difference and so any responsibility we have for our chosen actions must be compatible with them being predetermined since 1000 years before our birth and beyond. No need to go round and round in circles over this, it's just a question of accepting it and seeing how moral responsibility changes as a reault.
Well tbh i don't think Free will exists at all. As much as you say there's no influence behind what you're doing or saying, there's still something interfering with the conscious side of your brain and you're doing exactly the same what that influencer told your brain to do.
Too bad TH-cam removed the dislike buttom. Not that I would not like your video, but now I don't know how others that may have more expertise than me like your video.
@TCL After everything your common sense tells you, you choose to run away and hide from it. Logic and reason dominate all, and they dictate that the universe is quantifiable. You have as much free will as a rock on the ground. You think you're special because mom and dad told you so when they changed your diaper? Grow up.
@@knowledge_lantern Most scientists seem to agree with your statement, but I think there is a glitch in how the brain works which explains this. A scientist can perform an experiment, and if he sets it up correctly and follows the instructions precisely, he will get the same results every time. This leads them to believe that there is only one way for the universe to unfold since it is just one big science experiment. They don't notice that the scientist can change the ingredients slightly or increase the temperature a little and change the outcome at will. It is not the chemicals that determine the outcome, it is the intention and knowledge of the scientist. Chemicals just passively react according to their nature. Living things actively use the laws of nature to reach goals, so determinism is wrong, even in an entirely material world.
@@caricue interesting, but how can living things control nature as atoms and chemicals come prior to us, us being constituents of it, unless you believe conciseness is fundamental and at the start of the causal chain ?
@@knowledge_lantern I think causal chains are an illusion that our mind constructs from our memory. We see one thing happen after another, and if it happens every time, then we say one caused the other. This is sometimes true, but often it is nothing but our imagination. If I make a choice based on knowledge and intention, it had to come from my mind since these things don't exist anywhere else in the universe. Mindless particles don't have goals and don't know anything. Also, control is a human level concept that doesn't exist in nature. Particle interactions don't control anything.
@@knowledge_lantern I think Ultimate Reality is the everyday reality in which we live. This is the end result of all that exists. I don't think anyone knows what is at the bottom or fundamental level. No one knows where it came from, or if it did come from anything or anywhere. These human level concepts probably don't apply. I think that what people refer to as consciousness is various brain functions like perception, awareness and cognition, but the hard problem is what is it that experiences these things. I see humans as unitary, evolved organism made of solid matter, so it is this living matter that feels and experiences being alive. Consciousness is what it feels like for matter to be alive.
A household that had 9 kids, raised the same way, with the same influences and yet in 30 years they are spread all over the Country and World doing all kinds of different things including some in prison and others in Clergy, some in Military and some who are in business and some who are totally irresponsible--some Democrats, some Republican, some Independents and some who don't give a damn--all choices by each individual--there is NO determinism or quantum affect that prevents you or me from formulating opinions and making choices--individuals still pick and choose their own direction regardless of similar upbringings and very close "DNA".. If their was no free will, Musk wouldn't be interested in populating Mars, Hitler wouldn't have done the atrocities of WWII, Governments that have moved to Democracy would never have been pushed into existence, how did slavery start and yet slavery was ended--the ebb and flow of ALL THINGS (right, wrong, good or bad) is based on taking a right turn or a left turn, made through a conscious decision about what's up the road in either direction--right or wrong.. I think this discussion around responsibility is very accurate in it's rationale and can move the discussion in the right direction. Excellent post Robert! thank you!
X-Files. Free Will Indigenous earthling human beings think that "free will" means freedom to appreciate this paradise planet lifeboat and the miraculous works of fine art called life that inhabit it. And not be imprisoned and enslaved by hostile alien vampires (greed) and their ignorance (hate). But the hostile evangelical vampires (greed) think that "free will" means freedom to suck the joy out of life and devour the planet like a ravenous cancer. And freedom to imprison and enslave humans. Vampires (greed) who suck the joy out of life have joined the zombies who eat the futures of their children. Zombie Apocalypse is here and happening now. The evangelical monsters are extremely "desperate" to control a darkship called the Whitehouse. Because working in the dark to suck the joy out of life and consume the planet is the only way that the loveless, lifeless parasites can survive and thrive. It's also how the hostile alien invaders keep their human capital (cattle) corralled. Unlike earthling human beings and creators of joy...the evangelical monsters can't create harmony (real intelligence) because vampires (greed) are far worse than stupid. The loveless, lifeless parasites are ignorant (dead). Question. Why are the evangelical counting corpses using the bible as a springboard to perform somersaults to do the exact opposite of "love their neighbors" and "treat others like they want to be treated"? Answer. This is sick. Because these simple concepts are too far out there to grasp for vampires and zombies.
@@Oh4Chrissake when you pray you pray mainly to find that inner connection with something higher and to express gratitude for what you have, . I dont believe in praying to obtain benefits and i dont think God needs to be flattered
@@francesco5581 I think the Christian version of God, does need to be flattered. I mean what else would eternal singing, and worshipping of God for eternity in heaven be?
@@mrbamfo5000 I agree that this silly and boooring idea of heaven still exist in some old people and some silly evangelical circles ..but i think is limited to 5%-10% of christians ...nothing more
I think this video should be interesting for you guys th-cam.com/video/xCwY36a19aQ/w-d-xo.html the same guy who made this video also made a article called rationality rules does not understand philosophy.
Quantum determinism has nothing to do with freewill. That's a nonscientific belief and it's childish, which is why he's looking at him like a child (3:06) as he rambles on missing the point he was trying to make. (2:15) "Randomness doesn't seem like freewill anymore than determinism does." Whoooooosh over his head lmao.
How can people be so bloody stupid? If you believe every single thing you do subtends a casual chain does *THAT* include all of the sounds that come out of the physicist's mouth, and all of the keystrokes making up their academic papers?🙄 I mean, FFS, let's think about it. Dirac was made of particles. The Dirac equation explains particle movement. Do people want to say that Dirac isn't only particles OR in [so called] Dirac's work the particles were explaining themselves? It's infuriating. Hobbes and Hume - both compatibilists - knew that if you subscribed us to the material world, made us the objects of our own explanations, only Hobbes's "enormous unseen power", or Hume's (as Alexander Broadie says) "attenuated deism" squares the circle. It has been 400 years. We should have grasped the problem by now. If we're just fleshy robots subject to physical laws then this is a theodicy; God is coming to know himself as God in the mind of philosophical-scientific Man. Scientific explanations are what SUBJECTS do for OBJECTS. If you think the SCIENCE is itself an object, causally produced, you might want to pause and really contemplate that.
Free will is of a societal creation. Back in the Wild West robbing people was a mere choice of survival until law and civilization came about in which consequential repercussions exist. Under intangible man made laws. However the physiological response to fear of death or imprisonment is what regulates the negative sides of free will.
Believing in prayer is, at its best, delusional. Taking the opinion, on free will, of a delusional person is questionable. In fact, the idea that god exists, conflated with free will becomes, IMO, ludicrous. This constitutes another video that is closer to nothing.
You don't need anyone's opinion. It is obvious, given enough thought, that physical matter can't experience consciousness--yet you are conscious. You are more than the physical universe can produce, and your scorn of God ensures you will miss out on the best parts of life while you are here. But there's hope for you; honest people who pay attention grow out of our position over time.
Free will is the ability to make a meaningful choice. If God did not exist, there would be no such thing as meaning--we wouldn't even notice its absence--therefore, no free will. It can't be physically forced, but neither can it be random. This leaves us exactly two possibilities: either free will doesn't exist, or it comes from outside of nature. But no living person, no matter what they say they believe, behaves as if the first option is true. And consciousness blows the entire discussion to pieces anyway, because physics can't experience an awareness of anything. We are supernatural beings currently having a physical experience.
Awesome! If we consider the hydrogen atom to be eternally fizzing with energy, constantly questing to make connections ( and so NOT possibly inert ), then we should strive to make our neurons fire with that same fizzing energy and bring more of our brain-power into productive potential. I agree that we are supernatural beings moving through time. All else is furniture we navigate through & around. One can think of a bird of the hedgerow fluttering and trilling in joyous flight through the air, the wind ( time ) carrying the little creature along, and tree tops ( furniture ) being perturbed in wave-like motion by the wind. I believe time is a component of energy that acts upon the Guth membrane, flowing across it to lift particles into existence from the quantum field. Understand time in more detail gives empowerment. You cease being propelled along and begin to exercise potent free will.
Or.......we're just like the other creatures on the planet. Here and gone. We just happen to be the smartest of the species here. But that doesn't mean we're something overly special, there has to be a species that's the most intelligent, at this time that happens to be us.
"Present-day libertarians tend to pin their hopes for free will on quantum mechanics, but the random chance of quantum theory has no connection whatsoever to the concept of ethical freedom; the freedom to choose, the freedom to will. Doing something because (hypothetically) a subatomic particle randomly moves inside your skull offers no more freedom than doing something because genes or culture dictate it. The quantum event may be uncaused, but your (hypothetical) resulting action would itself be caused by the quantum event. The action is therefore not uncaused, and it is most certainly not chosen or willed. Indeterminism cannot save free will for humankind, because if the mind is, at least in part, undetermined, then some things ‘just happen’ in it outside the laws of causation for which, by definition, nobody and nothing is responsible. An individual is not responsible if their actions are caused, because those actions were ultimately set in motion before they were even born. But an individual is also not responsible if some of their actions are uncaused, because those actions just came out of nowhere. To be freely choosing an individual would have to be free from both deterministic effects and indeterministic effects. Free from both A and not-A, as a logician would put it. To be freely choosing you cannot have A, but you cannot have not-A either; free choice requires something that cannot logically exist in this or any possible universe." - Excerpt from an essay on free will
Logic requires the ability to know a thing is true, which can't happen if all events are either physically caused or random. The conclusion that Free Will can't be a product of our physical universe is correct, but you've missed the fact that Logic can't be physically caused, either (nor consciousness, morality, any valuation of any kind, significance--the list is very long). Fortunately, we are supernatural beings currently encased in physical avatars, so the physical universe's inability to produce these phenomena is not a problem for us. If you disagree, try living for a day as though you believe all of those things to be false. Theism is the only scenario where it can possibly matter what one believes.
So many people he talks to seem like dispassionate scientists but quickly veer into what they’d “like” was truth.
Wether we have free will or not we most certainly feel like we do, we live like we do and certainly treat each other as if we did.
That's why it matters that we don't have free will. How should we change as a consequence?
@@JoeHiYo If by reason you mean a cause for every effect, then I agree. Because when any measurement is made at the quantum level, the wave function collapses in a specific point in time yet takes an elapse of time to measure in which it cannot be seen where the cause occurred to make an effect. Therefore, you cannot rule out that there is no cause for any effect whatsoever, let alone enough to produce free will at any given moment. It's important to remember that any measurement needs some quantity of something identifiable, so that each point along the way needs something more than just location derived from quantum experiments for it to be measured. This is not easy stuff, but this is how I think about cause and effect and the main reason I doubt free will. If unclear still, I can say more...
@@JoeHiYo what if you can not see reality in how people act? what if you react to a Narcissistic person in such a way that it held you down for years, was it free will that made you react as you did?
@@JoeHiYo , I just asked because it seams that 96% of the people I grew up around were Narcissist on some level! I have studied Narcissism for 8 years, some people live years and years, even a life time never coming to seeing the Narcissism in their loved ones
"A man can surely do what he wills to do, but cannot determine what he wills."
- Arthur Schopenhauer
Havent heard that one before - deep!
“Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills.”
― Arthur Schopenhauer
LOL I just questioned above before I read your post>>> what if you can not see reality in how people act? what if you react to a Narcissistic person in such a way that it held you down for years, was it free will that made you react as you did?
It is true that in a specific moment that we can't determine what we want. However, a big part of being human is our ability to step back and see that what we want may not be good. We then have the ability to focus our attention on something different, and intentionally shape ourselves to be the sort of person who has different desires. There are many examples of this if you think about it.
@@chriscaliff8752 I believe in this context "to want" and "to will" aren't the same thing. As you've said you can step back and rethink what you want but this very 'stepping back' would already be an act of will. The question is would it be truly free if it's influenced by your past experience without which you wouldn't have 'stepped back' in the first place.
I just experienced and finished the Bhagavad Gita today for the first time -- thoroughly loved it and love Krishna.
If you're Spiritual, you are blessed. Continue seeking, focus within, properly utilize Intellect and apply Reason in all you do, think, speak.
Never allow men not going in the same direction as you, to sway you, influence you, making you vacilate. Continue on, like the guru's, mystics, sages, high preists, adepts, philosophers, theologians had in past times.
Going within in the Heart is greater that going out.
Sxience is great for physicality and out physical benefits; metaphysics and philosophy is for our Spiritual selves or ethereal forms -- cherish thy self always.
You cannot change the text. The structure is determined. Only the context remains free, the function can change. The drum 🥁 can make different sounds, follow a different beat. It remains a drum 🥁.
Just make a random choice, boom you have free will!
"Either our wills are determined by prior causes and we are not responsible for them, or they are the product of chance and we are not responsible for them."
- Sam Harris
Wow, that's really...not...clever.
Our free will is not "determined", but influenced.
Yes, to Sam, and current neuroscience research that continues free will is an illusion.
@@cps_Zen_Run So, how do you pursue your goals in life, if you don’t have free will?
@@humlakullen our minds make a choice, then we concoct a rational reason for making that choice. Split-brain studies provide interesting results regarding this. Peace.
You are free to make choices within a limited field of options.
no , we can leave our home now and start to run naked in the street or we can shoot ourselves now and put an end to that. Or we can go and bet all your money on a boxe match... no one stop us to do that. And many people actually do.
@@francesco5581 No one randomly does those things. It's a chain of events that leads to that starting from birth. It's not completely random, and you don't have as much choice as you think.
@@ryanorourke701 but you actually can randomly do them if you want. then you can find excuses but at the end the choice is yours even not choosing to run now naked in the streets .
You are free to pursue your desires and your wants but you are not free to choose what those will be.
Of 0.
Responsibility? Bah humbug. This guy needs to learn to party 🎉
I think there is a metaphysics, and its rules provide for free will, but being metaphysical they are inherently beyond analysis. And that is likely necessary: if we could figure out how free will works, then it wouldn't be that. No physical description can work.
Now that I've watched EVERY episode, I'm obliged to Robert to make my first comment. While thinking deeply about these issues almost seems tortuous and circular, I'd say Robert has done yeoman's work to sharpen the debate down to two competing ideas -> (1) an anthropic idea that suggests life was purposed by a self existing god or substance or (2) an infinite possibilities Copernican idea that says we are here because we are inevitable, not because life is special.
The first relaxes my shoulders and makes sense of consciousness, the fermi paradox, the lottery wins for each great filter, love, and the flight of a bird. The second forces me to reckon existence as an emergent property of endless possibilities. While I still feel this position is haunted by a meta law on causality, I accept it is a rational explanation for being
Before I share my conclusion, I should admit my bias. I want to believe in a creator and believe existence was purposed. While plagued by the awareness of my own bias, if I were to place my bet, I would bet it on our existence as proof of a self-existing entity - whether fine tuned or the clockwork of infinite possibilities to produce something deterministically emergent.
But once I adopt what feels like the more rational idea of a creator and causality and purpose, I have to come to grips with difficult ramifications of such a conclusion. How rational is a flawed world and existence in this view? How rational is the idea of a supreme intelligence that is unknowable unless we are a lab rat or the gum under the shoe for a different subject? How rational is it to go to the trouble of creating a Petri dish for life that only exists for a flash then gone for eternity to a random comet or eventual big freeze? If I'm forced to believe natural selection was purposed, what does that say about its creator? It is the most sadistic mechanism conceivable that requires endless death and suffering as a worthy exchange for progress.
Once I face the ramifications of my bet, I shift my weight back to a more Copernican stance, put my money back in my pocket and explore other ideas where I know one at least one is true. But I am still not any closer to truth.
3:47 That was funny! 😆 Quantum randomness doesn’t get us off the hook for having responsibility for our choices. Otherwise it could replace “temporary insanity” as a legal defense for any heinous act. 👺
I'm still searching for a consistent definition for "Free".
Similar to heat -- degrees.
More options, more freedom.
However, sometimes to few options is as bad as to many options.
360 degree motion in the physical and in mental. As we can walk backwards, forward, side to side, jump, climb mountains, dig hole. In the mind we can go back in memory, we can be still or meditate, or can predicte the future.
Not free from the shackles of time.
With proper use of the degree of freedom one may obtain, with a discipline mind and utilization of the Will a person can do unimaginable things as proven overtime by great people.
When the first atoms were "created" by virtue of certain conditions, under those same conditions could there have been any other result? What forced this initial result? ( and aren't these videos great? I feel bound to say Yes!).
If I relate my personhood to the broader system in which my POV exists rather than the POV itself then free will seems possible.
I think you can make choices within different parameters (set of possible choices)
Whats POV ..Spare my ignorance
@@richardamos5898 point of view
@@snowmachinechopsit sure, but if I believe I am a carpenter I will limit myself to carpentry. If I believe I am human I will have far less limit. If I believe I am the fundamental force of the universe I have no limit.
Both Free Will and Awareness exist as ONE ENTITY . One can not exist without the other. If you have no Awareness, then your WILL to choose can not exist because you are not even aware what choices to pick... and if your WILL does not exist, then the will to focus and be aware can not also exist. This is OBSERVABLE REALITY through your own personal experience.
Many misguided science people think that "Awareness with Free Will" is an illusion simply because it can not be identified by any means - a common error that science makes being bound by Infalsifiability PrincipleI that rhey imposed on themselves. Just because "Awareness with Free Will" is invisible as a non-physical Supernatural Entity, not part of this natural world, does not mean it does not exist.
...and the proof that Awareness is not natural but supernatural, not part of the physical world, is because it is free to make choices on its own, even free to believe in the Holy Spirit that has nothing to do with Physics.
As science understands, in the Physical World governed by natural laws, FREEDOM can not exists which means physical matter are not free to make choices on its own because it is the physical laws that controls.... but our Awareness is free and can make choices on its own, proving that it is not part of this physical world. I believe that our Awareness is our immortal soul that did not come from this Universe but originated from the Supernatural Aware SOURCE or God.
I will repeat to be clear, both Awareness and the WILL exist together as ONE ENTITY that I believe is our free immortal aware soul. It is free because it is not part of physical matter that, unfortunately, many godless ones define their whole being to be because they were corrupted by wannabe geniuses with this Infalsifiability Principle that limits science to material inquiry... When knowledge is being limited, ugly things can happen that may cause one to fall over the cliff. So, be very careful of what you swallow coming from these wannabe science geniuses....
Thank you
I think, free won’t is closer to truth.
5:59 Hmmm. I don’t have a satisfactory account THAT God responds when he prays, but he seems to think so.
And as far as _both_ prayer AND quantum theory being “robust”, I’d be curious how he defines “robust”. 🤔
There are freedoms within constraints.
you are free to be predetermined
Never. Free Will is fallacies created from blur mind.
@@maxwellsimoes238 Isn't that what they're saying? 🤔😄
@@AshtonClemens Free Will is fantasy . They are ignoring Phisch quantum inderteminism at Will.
How does determinism move through time? Could there be determinism without time, and if so, why the feeling of time?
Might choice in brain emerge from free will in neurons?
So, going with his definition, since I never felt any responsibility for my actions, I never had free will either?
I am scared...
No such thing as "free" will. Yes, we make choices, but those choices are not free from the factors that determine them. And we don't ultimately choose those factors.
you can open your window and throw yourself out ..and i can do the same. It's the thing you lived (and the choices you have made) that have made your learn things and influence your decision making. Not only external factors.
Juan--So you were forced to post to this thread? If you have ever answered any "Why" question with anything other than "Because it was entirely force by prior physical events," then you don't really believe what you have posted.
juan 👍..we came into this world we had no choice ....on our DNA/mental health/physical/where tio be born health.etc etc etc..
acccording to clasical p[hysics is deterministic according quantum physics it is ununpredicatble i.e.in both cases you have no free will!!
@@zerototalenergy150 according to 2 views of both areas . The probabilistic part of the quantum world end when it meets some criteria and one of it can be consciousness (as said recently by Tollaksen and other scientists). Classical physic is deterministic only until it meets consciousness , that consciousness is deterministic too is only a "derivation" made by a part of scientists and philosophers
@@francesco5581 'you can open your window and throw yourself out ..and i can do the same.' - only hypothetically, unless you value proving someone on the internet wrong more than your own life.
You can _imagine_ yourself doing it all you want but when actually faced with a ''choice'' of "to jump or not to jump" you would actually have no choice other than doing the most sensible thing at that very moment.
"I do not believe in free will. Schopenhauer's words: 'Man can do what he wants, but he cannot will what he wills,' accompany me in all situations throughout my life and reconcile me with the actions of others, even if they are rather painful to me. This awareness of the lack of free will keeps me from taking myself and my fellow men too seriously as acting and deciding individuals, and from losing my temper."
- Albert Einstein
The action happens before the thought, But you experience it as the thought happening first and then the action happening. The thought comes after the action has happened. To justify the action. Where is the freewill in that?
I understand this is the conundrum, but I don’t understand why it’s a conundrum. Why attribute higher status to the action than to the thought? If the two are genetically linked, and if it simply takes a certain amount of time to process the thought, why should this imply that a process of free will did not determine the action? I just don’t understand why the time sequence of action followed by [conscious awareness of] the thought determining the action implies the action came first in terms of cause and effect.
The greatest obstacle to understanding the human brain is the human brain.
Actually its too hard to solve the problem out of the way u hv been creating it... God needs to intervene
We have watched ourselves doing things for so long, that we believe we are the cause.
We might not be the cause... But we should be careful when we permit them to happen
These scientists need to be careful in the language they choose to use to describe free will before sounding like Deepak Chopra.
i assume every scientist can give his own opinion without having to be "careful" for your standards.
Well, that’s probably true, but it also begs the question whether they _care_ if they sound like Deepak Chopra. If they don’t care, they don’t need to be careful.
For as long as the mind / body problem remains extant - we can speculate about free will but gain no real knowledge.
Sad I will loose my free will in heaven if that exists.
Do we have free will in hell?
It’s all a mystery.
How about, you have free will, but there is no heaven or hell.
@@blaster-zy7xx
So.. I’ll be floating in space with free will?
@@Bassotronics Very funny. How is this for a proposal? We have free will while we are alive, and no consciousness at all after we die. We will be in exactly the same mental state as we were in 1792.
Responsibility has choice?
The Life-Desire is the Motor of Life,
in direct extension, we have the Will, (Life-side) and Gravity, (Stuff-side)
in further extension We have the (Basic-) Structure of the Consciousness, that is mirror'ed in the Rainbow, in it's most simple expression.
Four of the Colors/Abilities makes our electronic devises work,
Mr. Kuhn should forget about neuroscience, brains and subatomic forces.
(In understanding of Consciousness)
Amen at 3:50, if you are willing to give up freewill, you are in flow in "quantum randomness". If you are in flow with quantum randomness, you are indeed free.
What is the prayer?
"that His will be done on earth as it is in heaven"?
While King David received revelations, Solomon asked for understanding. Therefore, Ecclesiates.
Meaningless!
Vanity of vanities!
All works under the sun is a grasp of wind, vexing of the spirit.
Dangggg
Free will could be directed motion of energy?
Freedom of choice comes with a price/ sacrifice.
No such freedom exists.
"Who Is John Galt?"
Just imagine watching a relatively infinitely long movie on a ni infinitely large screen. If you use your free will to pick a random part of the movie, that part of the movie may seem random or free, but it was always a part of the movie.😊
Like the Library of Babel? But in a sort of book form.
The evidence is overwhelmingly that indeterminism makes no difference and so any responsibility we have for our chosen actions must be compatible with them being predetermined since 1000 years before our birth and beyond.
No need to go round and round in circles over this, it's just a question of accepting it and seeing how moral responsibility changes as a reault.
The camera work is dreadful and not just in this video. There is absolutely no reason to distract viewers with all this overly dramatic movement.
Well tbh i don't think Free will exists at all. As much as you say there's no influence behind what you're doing or saying, there's still something interfering with the conscious side of your brain and you're doing exactly the same what that influencer told your brain to do.
Too bad TH-cam removed the dislike buttom. Not that I would not like your video, but now I don't know how others that may have more expertise than me like your video.
i was what the fuck does responsibility have to do with free will and then he mentions god.
Tell me who is responsible for pre-emptive strike?
"Let's shift the focus from something reliable and quantifiable to something stupid and subjective"
👏
@TCL After everything your common sense tells you, you choose to run away and hide from it. Logic and reason dominate all, and they dictate that the universe is quantifiable. You have as much free will as a rock on the ground. You think you're special because mom and dad told you so when they changed your diaper? Grow up.
Free who ?
I lost some brain cells watching this
Materialism makes free will obsolete
Hence materialism is baloney
Materialism is fine, it's determinism that is baloney.
@@knowledge_lantern Most scientists seem to agree with your statement, but I think there is a glitch in how the brain works which explains this. A scientist can perform an experiment, and if he sets it up correctly and follows the instructions precisely, he will get the same results every time. This leads them to believe that there is only one way for the universe to unfold since it is just one big science experiment. They don't notice that the scientist can change the ingredients slightly or increase the temperature a little and change the outcome at will. It is not the chemicals that determine the outcome, it is the intention and knowledge of the scientist. Chemicals just passively react according to their nature. Living things actively use the laws of nature to reach goals, so determinism is wrong, even in an entirely material world.
@@caricue interesting, but how can living things control nature as atoms and chemicals come prior to us, us being constituents of it, unless you believe conciseness is fundamental and at the start of the causal chain ?
@@knowledge_lantern I think causal chains are an illusion that our mind constructs from our memory. We see one thing happen after another, and if it happens every time, then we say one caused the other. This is sometimes true, but often it is nothing but our imagination. If I make a choice based on knowledge and intention, it had to come from my mind since these things don't exist anywhere else in the universe. Mindless particles don't have goals and don't know anything. Also, control is a human level concept that doesn't exist in nature. Particle interactions don't control anything.
@@knowledge_lantern I think Ultimate Reality is the everyday reality in which we live. This is the end result of all that exists. I don't think anyone knows what is at the bottom or fundamental level. No one knows where it came from, or if it did come from anything or anywhere. These human level concepts probably don't apply. I think that what people refer to as consciousness is various brain functions like perception, awareness and cognition, but the hard problem is what is it that experiences these things. I see humans as unitary, evolved organism made of solid matter, so it is this living matter that feels and experiences being alive. Consciousness is what it feels like for matter to be alive.
A household that had 9 kids, raised the same way, with the same influences and yet in 30 years they are spread all over the Country and World doing all kinds of different things including some in prison and others in Clergy, some in Military and some who are in business and some who are totally irresponsible--some Democrats, some Republican, some Independents and some who don't give a damn--all choices by each individual--there is NO determinism or quantum affect that prevents you or me from formulating opinions and making choices--individuals still pick and choose their own direction regardless of similar upbringings and very close "DNA".. If their was no free will, Musk wouldn't be interested in populating Mars, Hitler wouldn't have done the atrocities of WWII, Governments that have moved to Democracy would never have been pushed into existence, how did slavery start and yet slavery was ended--the ebb and flow of ALL THINGS (right, wrong, good or bad) is based on taking a right turn or a left turn, made through a conscious decision about what's up the road in either direction--right or wrong..
I think this discussion around responsibility is very accurate in it's rationale and can move the discussion in the right direction.
Excellent post Robert! thank you!
X-Files. Free Will
Indigenous earthling human beings think that "free will" means freedom to appreciate this paradise planet lifeboat and the miraculous works of fine art called life that inhabit it. And not be imprisoned and enslaved by hostile alien vampires (greed) and their ignorance (hate).
But the hostile evangelical vampires (greed) think that "free will" means freedom to suck the joy out of life and devour the planet like a ravenous cancer. And freedom to imprison and enslave humans.
Vampires (greed) who suck the joy out of life have joined the zombies who eat the futures of their children.
Zombie Apocalypse is here and happening now.
The evangelical monsters are extremely "desperate" to control a darkship called the Whitehouse. Because working in the dark to suck the joy out of life and consume the planet is the only way that the loveless, lifeless parasites can survive and thrive.
It's also how the hostile alien invaders keep their human capital (cattle) corralled.
Unlike earthling human beings and creators of joy...the evangelical monsters can't create harmony (real intelligence) because vampires (greed) are far worse than stupid. The loveless, lifeless parasites are ignorant (dead).
Question. Why are the evangelical counting corpses using the bible as a springboard to perform somersaults to do the exact opposite of "love their neighbors" and "treat others like they want to be treated"?
Answer. This is sick. Because these simple concepts are too far out there to grasp for vampires and zombies.
very bright ... a good scientist ...
Seems such a struggle( ie morality)to explain free will when so simple to say no free will on the basis of genetics and environmental interaction
You are right you are a simple robot simply explaining simplistically you are but a simple robot!
@@davidthurman3963 Are you a bot? 🤖
Was ur statement that "there's no free will" given freely or under certain condition
Lol how is prayers even robust? So this quantum scientist is not an atheist.
In what way is prayer "robust"?
is shown that help people just like meditation ..even if you dont believe. Is a connection with our deeper "I".
@@francesco5581 So when you pray for someone else, you're really just helping yourself.
@@Oh4Chrissake when you pray you pray mainly to find that inner connection with something higher and to express gratitude for what you have, . I dont believe in praying to obtain benefits and i dont think God needs to be flattered
@@francesco5581 I think the Christian version of God, does need to be flattered. I mean what else would eternal singing, and worshipping of God for eternity in heaven be?
@@mrbamfo5000 I agree that this silly and boooring idea of heaven still exist in some old people and some silly evangelical circles ..but i think is limited to 5%-10% of christians ...nothing more
NTS 65/u
I think this video should be interesting for you guys th-cam.com/video/xCwY36a19aQ/w-d-xo.html the same guy who made this video also made a article called rationality rules does not understand philosophy.
The choice is yours.
Complete gibberish. Physics aint metaphysics, period. The hubris of the ignorant is unbound.
Quantum determinism has nothing to do with freewill. That's a nonscientific belief and it's childish, which is why he's looking at him like a child (3:06) as he rambles on missing the point he was trying to make. (2:15) "Randomness doesn't seem like freewill anymore than determinism does." Whoooooosh over his head lmao.
How can people be so bloody stupid? If you believe every single thing you do subtends a casual chain does *THAT* include all of the sounds that come out of the physicist's mouth, and all of the keystrokes making up their academic papers?🙄 I mean, FFS, let's think about it. Dirac was made of particles. The Dirac equation explains particle movement. Do people want to say that Dirac isn't only particles OR in [so called] Dirac's work the particles were explaining themselves? It's infuriating. Hobbes and Hume - both compatibilists - knew that if you subscribed us to the material world, made us the objects of our own explanations, only Hobbes's "enormous unseen power", or Hume's (as Alexander Broadie says) "attenuated deism" squares the circle. It has been 400 years. We should have grasped the problem by now. If we're just fleshy robots subject to physical laws then this is a theodicy; God is coming to know himself as God in the mind of philosophical-scientific Man. Scientific explanations are what SUBJECTS do for OBJECTS. If you think the SCIENCE is itself an object, causally produced, you might want to pause and really contemplate that.
Free will is of a societal creation. Back in the Wild West robbing people was a mere choice of survival until law and civilization came about in which consequential repercussions exist. Under intangible man made laws. However the physiological response to fear of death or imprisonment is what regulates the negative sides of free will.
Believing in prayer is, at its best, delusional. Taking the opinion, on free will, of a delusional person is questionable. In fact, the idea that god exists, conflated with free will becomes, IMO, ludicrous. This constitutes another video that is closer to nothing.
You don't need anyone's opinion. It is obvious, given enough thought, that physical matter can't experience consciousness--yet you are conscious. You are more than the physical universe can produce, and your scorn of God ensures you will miss out on the best parts of life while you are here. But there's hope for you; honest people who pay attention grow out of our position over time.
@@davidpoole7067 And yet you are physical matter who is conscious. There is no evidence that a God is required.
@@davidpoole7067 Such silliness. Fools always have an excuse to be foolish.
Free will is the ability to make a meaningful choice. If God did not exist, there would be no such thing as meaning--we wouldn't even notice its absence--therefore, no free will. It can't be physically forced, but neither can it be random. This leaves us exactly two possibilities: either free will doesn't exist, or it comes from outside of nature. But no living person, no matter what they say they believe, behaves as if the first option is true. And consciousness blows the entire discussion to pieces anyway, because physics can't experience an awareness of anything. We are supernatural beings currently having a physical experience.
Awesome! If we consider the hydrogen atom to be eternally fizzing with energy, constantly questing to make connections ( and so NOT possibly inert ), then we should strive to make our neurons fire with that same fizzing energy and bring more of our brain-power into productive potential. I agree that we are supernatural beings moving through time. All else is furniture we navigate through & around. One can think of a bird of the hedgerow fluttering and trilling in joyous flight through the air, the wind ( time ) carrying the little creature along, and tree tops ( furniture ) being perturbed in wave-like motion by the wind. I believe time is a component of energy that acts upon the Guth membrane, flowing across it to lift particles into existence from the quantum field. Understand time in more detail gives empowerment. You cease being propelled along and begin to exercise potent free will.
Or.......we're just like the other creatures on the planet. Here and gone. We just happen to be the smartest of the species here. But that doesn't mean we're something overly special, there has to be a species that's the most intelligent, at this time that happens to be us.
"Present-day libertarians tend to pin their hopes for free will on quantum mechanics, but the random chance of quantum theory has no connection whatsoever to the concept of ethical freedom; the freedom to choose, the freedom to will. Doing something because (hypothetically) a subatomic particle randomly moves inside your skull offers no more freedom than doing something because genes or culture dictate it. The quantum event may be uncaused, but your (hypothetical) resulting action would itself be caused by the quantum event. The action is therefore not uncaused, and it is most certainly not chosen or willed. Indeterminism cannot save free will for humankind, because if the mind is, at least in part, undetermined, then some things ‘just happen’ in it outside the laws of causation for which, by definition, nobody and nothing is responsible. An individual is not responsible if their actions are caused, because those actions were ultimately set in motion before they were even born. But an individual is also not responsible if some of their actions are uncaused, because those actions just came out of nowhere. To be freely choosing an individual would have to be free from both deterministic effects and indeterministic effects. Free from both A and not-A, as a logician would put it. To be freely choosing you cannot have A, but you cannot have not-A either; free choice requires something that cannot logically exist in this or any possible universe."
- Excerpt from an essay on free will
Logic requires the ability to know a thing is true, which can't happen if all events are either physically caused or random. The conclusion that Free Will can't be a product of our physical universe is correct, but you've missed the fact that Logic can't be physically caused, either (nor consciousness, morality, any valuation of any kind, significance--the list is very long). Fortunately, we are supernatural beings currently encased in physical avatars, so the physical universe's inability to produce these phenomena is not a problem for us. If you disagree, try living for a day as though you believe all of those things to be false. Theism is the only scenario where it can possibly matter what one believes.
🇺🇳4:11
Zero practical value.
wrong channel then