Father VS Dante - Analyzing the Villains of Fullmetal Alchemist
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 มิ.ย. 2024
- Link to first part of Fullmetal Alchemist VS Brotherhood series: • Fullmetal Alchemist VS...
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Background Music (in order of use and by section):
Introduction
- Life and Death (from 2003)
Part 1: Father
- Pride (from Brotherhood)
- One is All, All is One (from Brotherhood)
- Lapis Philosophorum - Chant (from Brotherhood)
Part 2: Dante
- Warning (from 2003)
- Deep Forest (from 2003) - เกม
Sorry for the long wait on this one. To be honest, this video isn't as long as I would have liked after such a lengthy wait, but after some consideration I moved a good amount of content from this video to a later video in the series. While I don't want to give a date for the release of the next FMA video, I'm confident in saying that the wait won't be as long as the wait from the homunculi video to this one (multiple months). Either way, I hope you enjoy what's here. Thanks for watching, and I hope you have a great day :)
Thank You so much man. I have been watching these videos since 2017. I really appreciate the thought and quality you put into this.
I haven't been watching for as long as future wiz, but I agree
Thank you
I did an the wait was worth it I can't wait to see your version of what character was add to fma 2003 and what was not and there importants to the story
I would also like to see the comparison to FMA movie and FMA
Me too
Even though I consider Brotherhood the superior adaptation, I think the idea of the homunculi as a consequence for trying to play god is more fitting than some black goo that hates humans. Also Lyra is cuter than Father.
Hm I don't know Father's a pretty cute guy if you ask me
@@Lowart It is NGL
Father is kinda hot bro.
I want to touch his beard 🙃🥴
Lowart
The question is. Which Father?
Hohenheim twin? Naked with long hair? Giant black blob with eyes? Or the Dwarf?
Dante represents denial and cognitive dissonance.
She tells Ed straight up equalvant exchange is a lie. He reflexively denies this parroting off his childhood lesson. But once she says "equal effort does not always mean equal gain" if you look at Ed's face, his expression is priceless, like in spite in believing, he has some doubt.
Dante proceeds bring up example after example of clear unrewarded effort, and Ed has *no* rebuttal.
The brilliant irony of this is this mirrors the first episode where Ed was talking down to Rose, lording his science and alchemy over Roses "pointless" and "irrational" beliefs in a god she couldn't see and all her actions were in based on her belief like a puppet. Yet here Ed is talking to Dante, thinking he was following the truth, when like Rose, was only following a flawed belief, having absolutely nothing to say. Just denial.
This is made even worse because his father shows him, scientifically, that equivalent exchange still requires extra energy to change the matter and is therefore not "equivalent". And even having this explained to him pedantically and in detail, he walks away from that *still* believing in equivalent exchange. Even in the last episode, still parroting off equivalent exchange this. Equivalent exchange that.
It mirrors Rose finding out that Father Cornello was a fraud. She could not let her belief go. She had invested too much of herself in the belief for it to be false, dispute all evidence against it. It couldn't be wrong as that would mean she wasted all that time believing. Sunk cost fallacy. And Ed fell for it just like Rose did. His God was just called equivalent exchange. _A Rose by any other name is just as sweet._
Ironic really. The whole series was Ed attempting to come to terms with this belief and it's contradictions. Ed accepted early on "a life is not worth a life," yet still believed in "equivalence". How does he reconcile these 2 contradictory beliefs? Denial.
Dante is just like this. She rationalized mass genocide was justfied to prevent mankind from destroying itself. Yet this was an excuse to hide from herself that she is simply scared of death. She needed to frame genocide as virtue, so she can live forever. There's a good reason... but then there's a reason. She was suffering from extreme cognitive dissonance. Denial.
Such comments made me wish TH-cam would introduce a save comment feature already. What an excellent comment.
Can we get an amen in here? I don't think Dante is a great character (she's too rushed and crammed for that), but she's a great antagonist, a creature whose purpose is to be the counterargument to Ed's whole belief system. Entropy vs. Equivalence, Faith vs. Fact, Hard Truths vs. Easy Lies. As that counterbalance, she's spectacular.
Excellent analysis. Dante fears death just like Ed fails to accept death and he learned the hard way that to fight death, more sacrifices need to be done, ironically.
And yeah, I also cringed when Dante pretended to defend humans all In the while sacifying them, she was quite dishonest, or delusional, here. But she falls onto the catégory of people who are so narcissistic that they think that the pain they inflict is a blessing, which makes sense in her case, because she keeps on living but yet cant find a real reason to explain her will to live, and lacks the ability to be self critical as she just continues to live to protect her ego (a fragile ego since she thinks nothing she does is wrong and that her life is more worth than a whole village). Her psychology was quite interesting.
What a big brain comment.
The one-sided argument with Dante was such a great scene. Honestly, at parts of it it feels like she could be talking straight to the audience.
I think the fact Father was a mirror of Van Hohenheim made him much more unsettling as a character.
Yeah that was chilling. I also love the parallels between him and Hohenheim as well.
Though I do think a younger lady in the equivalent of a ball gown is also chilling. But Father and Hohenheim mirroring each other while basically being on opposite sides of the spectrum of their beliefs was haunting.
Yeah that’s why I prefer father and brotherhood in general, it makes a lot more sense in many situations, tho there are some things 2003 handles better I think
@@Calebe428 i mean thats the thing Dante was a mirror to Ed in the exact same way
She just wasnt as bombastic about it
@@V2ULTRAKill i don't see how she mirror ed. She was rush to be a bad guy to end the series and ultimately she eaten by a mindless gluttony another victim.
I really liked how neither would exist without the other. Without the Homunculus in the flask, Hohenheim would have been content to remain as Slave 23, with no identity or real desires of his own. And Homunculus/Father was from the beginning created from Hohenheim's blood. In a way, their whole identities in relation to each other are an example of equivalent exchange
Everyone in this comment section could be an author...writing whole paragraphs…
They do be writing essays better than me tho-
NO U >:[
@@SPFLDAngler The comment section is pretty civil here. People are just expressing their opinions, but you make it seem like people are having heated debates about dumb topics.
@@SPFLDAngler Majority of the comments I’ve seen are of them are just having harmless discussion. Nobody is trying to force a headcannon as you say.
@Yuri Markov We have reached peak big brain. **hovers into the air with an angelic choir singing in the background**
Let's not forget Dante gets one of the coolest and most haunting melodies in the series.
yeah but she has a extremely petty reason for it all. I prefer father's motives over hers any day
True
@@johnnyciobanas5298 but that's what makes her a amazing antagonist for me, not everyone has their goal as to gain power above all else, it's not as compeling as a more grounded reason like "I just want to survive as long as i can, and take revenge on someone at the same time".
@@johnnyciobanas5298 "I WANT TO BE A GOD!!" Pretty basic villain to be honest.
To be fair father's less centered on being god and more about getting all knowledge and having no limits@@basicsimp8798
The fascinating, frankly brilliant side of Dante to me is you would expect someone willing to screw with the nature of the undead, fling countries into an endless war, endorse genocide, all that stuff, would be someone with a deep, complex motivating drive. But Dante is a great villain in how ridiculously petty she is. All that war, all that destruction, not for a messed up understanding of morality, not to justify a meaningful end. Just to preserve her pathetic life just a little longer.
Considering her hatred of people, she also probably takes a lot of pleasure in spreading misery and war among humanity.
That's honestly the reason I prefer Dante to Father. It's not because I find Father particularly poorly written or anything, but simply because, no matter how good a villain he is, he's still the "bad guy becomes god and the heroes have to use the power of friendship to punch god in the face" archetype. Dante is such a refreshing character for just being such a petty bitch.
Also, I like how her backstory contributes to the lore of 2003. The world, as far as we'd seen, seemed to mostly just be Amestris, with hints at neighboring countries, but not much else. That is, however, until Dante shows up and explains how the humans in FMA and the humans in our dimension were actually following identical paths until Hoenheim used alchemy for the first time to make the philosopher's stone. Then that diverged the entire history of FMA's world to be about one geared toward Alchemy, whereas our world veered away from "magic" and into science. I think that's a neat idea, and the use of real world tragedies like the Salem Witch Trials and the Bubonic Plague as fuel for the philosopher's stone is an interesting way of linking our world to the world created in FMA.
The banality of evil
Interesting, I think this explains why I don't really like her. It felt so petty. Like all that grand shit for that. I preferred Father because his goals were so ridiculously hard (even tho they stem from petty insecurity) it stayed coherent with the grand and bombastic events of the show. Idk probably just me
Shes a really really weaker version of kefka
And not a good character writing wise
Honestly this is 100 percent the most unbiased comparison between the 2 shows on youtube where you can tell with other youtubers that they clearly have a bias towards one show and just want to put down the other you can tell lowart is truly passionate about both and just wants to share what he finds to be so great in both shows while also pointing out the flaws he finds in both.
I'm really happy that comes across. I love the manga, Brotherhood, and 03. I only grow to appreciate each one more when I go back to them.
@@Lowart I personally think Father is a better Villain because I think he was set up better and had more screen time to be intimating and one of my complaints of the 2003 FMA anime finale is twists like Dante, Envy's true identity, and what's on the other side of the door didn't have proper setups and came out of nowhere. I don't think Dante is a bad villain it's just we didn't get much time to see her as a Villain.
Anime Robot so you’re saying the pacing and timing was better with Brotherhood. I can respect that. I’m personally not bothered by the pacing of fullmetal alchemist, in fact I think the last 10 episodes are the best ones for showing the themes and wrapping up the story. But brotherhood had much more time to plan out how the story was done from the start so it would inevitably be better at that. So I agree but I don’t think it’s really a huge downside to Dante as a villain or FMA 03 as a whole.
@@sprawlz6466 yeah I'm sure if the 2003 version had more time it could've executed them a lot better
@Venn its not even like that though, 03 was being produced alongside the manga so when the show reached the most recent point, they had to start making stuff up. It slowly branched off and created something entirely different from the original story. I believe they did a good job with what they had. If only they gave themselves more time to produce a less rushed and included less filler then 03 might've been better then brotherhood.
Father and Dante are very similar characters in certain ways.
1. They both seek to use the philosopher's stone at the cost of countless lives to become more than what they are.
2. They both take advantage of the homunculi and never think of the possibility that their motives and emotions will conflict with the plan. This ultimately leads to their downfall when they are destroyed by a homunculus.
3. They both have a certain pride in themselves (despite one trying to remove it) and think that they are above humans. They see life as a resource.
4. They both create a philosopher's stone with Hoenhiem.
5. Both take a form that isn't their own.
6. Both want to have sex with Ed
Thank you finally I always found it super annoying when people say one is better than the other when they're so similar
They also both have human origins that they reject I know that point 3 technically covers that but i think the fact they came from humans in some way (dante literally being a human that swaps bodies over and over again, father being a homunculus that came from an humans blood )
Back when I first watched FMA03 I thought Dante as a rather boring main villain, but after re-watching the show couple more times, and falling in love with it even more over time, I actually think she's a pretty terrifying villain. Her parasitic nature of literally stealing lives and bodies of others makes my skin crawl. And I think her real motivation of destroying civilizations isn't doing humanity a favor as she claims, but just to stay alive. It's a simple motive but also very relatable and human. All in all, I now think Dante is one of the most underrated anime villains I've come across.
Yeah, I feel like Dante could have been a much more memorable villain had everything around her been much better villain. For me personally, it was hard for me to remain invested in her when her best moment(her speech about debunking equivalent exchange) happens after seeing cartoon terminator man attack Mustang's group and shortly before Ed gets sent into an alternate dimension where zeppelins are attacking London.
@@trevordavis6830 lmfao mans told the truthh
I will forever stan the original. But boi it could have knocked it out the park with a few tweaks.
There are waaay better villains than her with similar motives: Vilgax from Ben 10, dr Weil from megaman Zero
She's just plain boring
@@TheEdwardAlchemist Fma 2003 Is not the original, the manga came first remember that
@@isauldron4337 If we wanna go ACKSHUALLY about it lol 03 outpaced the manga, which is why it has an anime only ending. But 03 is easier to say anyway :p
Thinking of every humonculi other than Lust and Sloth in Brotherhood, the idea that Father wanted a family and to be able to make connections is believable. Greed's ultimate wish, Pride's love (if you can call it that) for his mother, Wrath's love for his wife, Envy's jealousy of the connection of the main cast, and Gluttony's love for Lust. I doubt he could handle that and viewed all those emotions as limitations and began shedding his sins. In doing so, he lost any chance of understanding all is one and one is all. I also like the execution of Father's attempt to transcend and the line about how he just wants to get out of his flask when Hohenheim asks what his wish is.
Dante, on the other hand, was just too creepy to me (mostly bc of the thing with Ed bc otherwise she was the right amount of creepy) and seemed less above those limitations than she claimed to be. When Father compared humans to insects, it felt more justified. However, that's only bc Dante is just a human, so her looking down on humanity just felt petualant to me.
I actually do like Dante in the original though, and I'm glad the anime got past the manga bc the whole different angle of the show was great to me. I found Dante compelling, but I have a bit of a peeve about human character pretending they are above humanity. As you can probably tell, I prefer Father.
I prefer Father too but for different reasons. I thought things in the 2003 FMA finale were rushed and pulled out of nowhere like Dante's origins, Envy's identity, and the world beyond the gate of truth. If they had more time to develop and explore the ideas it could've worked but it felt very rushed.
I would say lust fits too, I mean she was Happy Mustang was the man to kill here so there was some love there imo.
Dante sucks... her world, doesn´t. She could be a lot more compelling by being sincere with herself: "i don´t want to die", that should be good enough, no need to justify yourself... By having father as a villain, though, you suddenly can focus all the evil and sins to the point a sniper with the proper knowledge could end it all from the start of the series.
Dante´s world, in the other hand, is a lot messier, less shonen plot (if that makes sense).
Same here. I thought Dante was pretty bland and uninteresting tbh but the video changed my mind a little bit. Overall I don't think 03 holds a candle to Brotherhood or the Manga, but honestly 03 is still better than most conventional shounen
@@IronFreakV Dante was a pretty forgettable antagonist imo. She's not bad per se but I just didn't care for her motivations or origins.
father's last scene as the dwarf in the flask meeting truth and crying about how he didn't want to go was what made me like him more than dante. there's just something about it.
Me too, it showed the human side of him
Actually made me feel bad for him and relate to an extent
I feel like people forget about stuff like that when discussing Father. At first glance he’s generic yes but if you look a but further he’s actually not a half bad villain. His dynamic with Hohenheim was great too
Did you like it because his death was actually ON-SCREEN?! (Dante)
Yeah it's called cliche writing
I like father more because of his relationship with hohenhiem, it also gives more of a reasoning for the homonculis naming scheme, although I appreciate how much care they are given in 2003
03 had so much potential that was ruined by executives
Father just clones his body. I wouldn’t call that a relationship
@@alexkrasnic3850 I mean, Hohenheim seems to be the person Father has come the closest to respecting, displaying confusion at the fact that Hohenheim would remain remorseful and care so much for humans despite being a superior creature in Father's eyes. He also shows some lighthearted delight at seeing Hohenheim had children, even if it's very superficial appreciation, and let's not forget Father was the one who gave Hohenheim the drive to be more than just a slave, and supposedly made the deliberate choice of giving Hohenheim half of Xerxes' souls. I'd definitely say Hohenheim cared more about Father than the latter did about the former, but they did have an interesting relationship.
Javier de Prada by that same principle, you should think dante is better since they had an even closer relationship
@@alexkrasnic3850 Eh, a "closer" relationship does not always mean better or more effectively executed. Don't get me wrong Hohenheim and Dante's relationship is pretty interesting, but it has a different theme and nature to that of Hohenheim and Father's and some people might find one or the other to be more effective or intriguing. My preference for Father isn't solely based on his relation to Hohenheim anyways, I'm not the one who wrote the original comment.
Also, "closer" can be debated. Yeah, there's a greater sentimentality to Dante and Hohenheim, but Father was the one who started everything about Hohenheim's passion for learning and improving. He was the one who gave him a name, a proper identity, the chance to aspire to be more than a slave. You can argue that Father was the one who gave Hohenheim his sense of "self" in the first place, which one might argue is more relevant than a centuries-old romance. Both Dante and Father had a tremendous impact on Hohenheim's extremely long life in very different ways, and their respective relationships to him are an integral part of his character that never loses relevance.
Villains Wiki described Dante's true form as only ever being shown in flashbacks and that "the old lady and Lyra are just victims" what really got me their was "the old lady" part. We don't even know who she is and what's hiding behind that face is actually an evil soul, almost as if Dante is masquerading as a corpse. That's what makes her so terrifying.
That applies to hohenheim as well. Like technically ed and al aren't even biologically related to the original hohemheim
@@baldman7738 ...go on. I've only followed the 2 anime series. Where'd that come from?
@@EyreKneeSA hohenheim also switches bodies to stay alive until he leaves dante and decides to stay in the last one he took. The body that fathered ed and al is just some guy. Not the original body he had.
@@baldman7738 That's definitely true and it also makes me shutter to think that they technically aren't Hohenheims biological children. But I dont think hohenheims left Dante while he was in the body that he had during the series run. He has said to left right after he created Envy (almost 400 years ago, which is why envy holds an enormous amount of contempt for him) and he even asks Dante how many bodies she's stolen over the years, to which she replies that it was less than 10, making it pretty obvious that he left her 100s of years before the show began and met trisha much later down the line
@@brandynlovett4054 03 just continues to add new depth to each main character. Idk i just prefer it over the straight forward brotherhood.
I'm surprised that there aren't many female anime main antagonists like Dante in recent media. Even though she is a scripted villain she still stands as one the best underrated anime villains of the early 21st century.
The dwarf in the flask at the gates meeting the truth is a scene that makes me tear up every time because he asks a fundamental question of why do I exist. He didn't really know what to do with himself after getting out of the flask but picked this goal that he thought was what he was put on earth for, to cast off his sins and become a perfect being. When he meets the truth he can't understand what he did wrong, what mistakes he made, he is desperately crying out to god for guidance on why he was here and what he did wrong but god makes no reply, Its both satisfying comeuppance and incredibly sad to see someone who was so sure of their ideals realise they were wrong but wonder why. Both why he failed and why his entire philosophy in life was wrong in the first place. He was made to play a game, and he essentially became the best player, but he never knew the rules and he never knew how to win.
That was the ironic thing about him. Because he was a piece of what is beyond the Gate, he had an incomparable amount of scientific knowledge. But the problem is, he didn't have one drop of emotional intelligence to go along with it. And he chose to stay that way for 400 years. Which is exactly what Truth mocked him for. He had all the freedom that he wanted, but he ignorantly chose not to use it to grow.
And to make matters worse
For all his massive knowledge, he never learn anything new in all his life.
His gate is blank, he learnt nothing in all those years
While ed in the end ended up outsmarting truth and getting complimented by god
Father only got mocked by god and dragged to his self inflicted hell@@SnowyWolborg
I'd say that the biggest difference between the two villains of both "Fullmetal Alchemist" lies in how their most obivous differences hide in plain sight their most stricking similarities.
=======
*Dante*
What we learn in the original Fullmetal is that "Dante" was a human woman that DID succeed at crafting the philosopher stone BUT, by causing the unforeseen death of the man she loved (Hoheinheim), ended up immediatly using it's power to transfer his soul onto another man's body to save his life, essentialy achieving a form of immortality through theft - a flawed version of immortality that causes the hijacked body to rot and die, disregard how healthy the body is. Worse, the more the soul is transfered to the next body, the faster it rots. This puts Dante on a race against time, where she does everything she can to find a way to keep death at bay : doing human experiments, conspiring against entire country to cause war, orchestrating genocide to get the necessary components to make a new, purer philosophical stone to save her skin (both litteraly and figuratively.) While disguising her absolute selfishness as self-righteous altruism ; presenting herself as the shepard of humanity. Despite her litteraly manipulating the figurative albeit physical manifestation of human sins, under the form of Homonculus, with the promise of using the philosopher stone to give them the humanity their existence is devoided off yet long for, yet never having the intention to be true to her word.
In other words, Dante is a human being. More so : she's the archetype of the selfish, entilted, self-styled superior human that think herself better than everybody else (to the point of not seeing herself human anymore, so much she think herself above all), that yet ultimately only act on the most basic and superficial desires that define the humanity she denies herself to belong to. Yet does. Only to have that very sin being paid back in full when the last of her sin standing, Glutonny, whose insatiable hunger was kept in check by his human-like infantile innocence, was released of his shackles due to her ridding him of emotions and devored her whole. Leaving nothing behind.
*Father*
What we learn in "Brotherhood" is that "Father" was an entity birthed by humans during their research on "the Truth" and confined within a flask to serve as a mean to discover and achieve immortality BUT, through manipulations and cleverly crafted promises, ended up turning the tide upon it's masters in an otherwordly ceremony and expeding their live as both fuel to reach his own immortality and freedom from the confine of his flask, as he craft himself a body molded after that of the slave that helped him getting up to his point (Hoheinheim) ; the same slave that he went on sharing is immortality with as an earnest form of gratitude (from his inhuman perspective). All this event barely serving as a premise for his great ambition of creating a big country with the intent of sacrifying the life of every human living in it in an even bigger ceremony to assimilate "The Truth" (also known as "God") and achieve godhood of his own. Seeing both humans and even emotions themselves as nothing but hindrances to be discarded by default or using as tool (at best) to fulfill his ambitions, completely detached from everything else.
In other words, "Father" is an inhuman being whose pettyness is only matched by his ambitions and whose very existence is a contradictions, in both acts and words, against everything and everyone, whose sole intent is to stand above all. Yet ultimately being denied everything at the most critical point, by the very everyone he continuously looked down upon ; ending up being himself judged and condemn by "The Truth" he worked to hard to overcome and being locked back behind it's doors as the mere being he was and was never meant to come out.
=======
From this premises, serving as comparison material between both characters, we can immediatly realize the one critical point they both share : they serve both as the epitome of "Heresy" for their respective worlds. (From Greek _hairesis_ : _"a taking or choosing for oneself, a choice, a means of taking; a deliberate plan, purpose; philosophical sect, school."_ Itself coming from _haireisthai_ which means _"take, seize"._ Middle voice of hairein _"to choose."_ )
Dante symbolise the being belonging to the realm of humans denying humanity. And "Father" is the being belonging to the realm of the divine ("The Truth/God") denying divinity.
Whereas Dante is petty and selfish as a mortal, "Father" is petty and selfish as an immortal.
Whereas Dante hypocritically deceive herself to act as caretaker of mankind (donning the role of a "Mother" wtihout saying so), "Father" honestly looks down on it without the slightest form of pretense (while taking a name implying to do so.)
Whereas Dante looked forward achieving immortality, transcending her humanity, "Father" looked forward absorbing "God", transcending the divine.
Whereas Dante did refine and made use of other people's sins, "Father" only ever made use of those he discarded from himself.
Whereas Dante used a very litteral philosopher stone to transfer Hoheinheim's soul into a new body, "Father" turned Hoheinheim's original body into a full fledged philosopher stone.
Whereas Dante original human identity and face has never been revealed, that of "Father" reveals a silhouette with no identity.
Whereas Dante challenges Edward's understanding of "Equivalent exchange" with arguments (people attemtping the state alchemist exam only to fail, disregard the efforts put into succeeding at it), "Father" challenges Edward's understanding of Alchemy with facts (Mustang paying the price of human transmutation despite not causing it.)
Both are complete parallel opposites of heresy. Clashing with all established standards on pretty much every single front. And both architects of their own downfall, on their very own terms.
When you think about it, it's a very impressive duality that Arakawa created between the two antagonists. They are so removed from one another that it looks like they got nothing in common. Yet under closer inspection, they share so many mirrored similarities that they might as well be one and the same. Simply brilliant.
i finally understand the 2003 anime
How does this comment not have a million likes... I appreciate and adore your perspective.
Your literary skills are beautiful. Please teach me.
@@N3XTREVOLUTION I sincerely decline. Re-reading my post, i realized having committed some severe grammatical and syntax errors that are simply inexcusable to be found within such a lengthy text. As such, i am no one to look after for example.
Too much warehouses in your essay, my friend.
One thing I wanna talk about:
At the start of the 1st few episodes of FMAB, they had a manly sounding voice talking about the laws of equivalent exchange and the philosopher's stone followed by intense music
In 2003 FMA, they had Alphonse talking about it, and soon Edward aswell, with peaceful sounding music
I like how FMA (the variant where everything is a bit more dark and melancholic) has the more peaceful and cute approach to explaining the laws of equivalent exchange
The manly voice in FMAB is Father's, no? I think that was quite deliberate, as was the choice of having Al do it in '03. Aesthetically, I agree with you; I like Al's better. But in terms of the themes of both shows, both decisions make sense to me
I agree
I definitely thin the choice in 2003 is great, not only with the ending to contextualize it but also showing us their ideal and naive impressions of the world on this very harsh coming of age story.
There is also the bit with the fact that the quote in 2003 is incomplete for most of the show. It isn't until the end we hear the full one.
Later in like the last 20 episodes I think of 03
It starts as normal with a framed picture of the family with honiems face obscured by the sun
But then the original picture is replaced instantly with a picture of ed and al, that starts to catch fire
I think one of the big things people miss about Father is that he is both an individual, overseeing master of the seven; and the encompassing consciousness in which is expressed through each of the Homunculi's actions. Each of the seven are apart of him, no matter how much he treats them as disposable pawns.
This is what makes Greed the most interesting of the Homunculi in Brotherhood; because he encompasses Father's own wish to do good, and that seedling of a desire to see himself and his plan fail; and have friends to sacrifice himself for.
Something that I think a lot of people miss in this equation is Lust. Greed showed a desire for friendship with humans, but Lust was the one who kept her siblings from fighting, mothered the simpleminded Gluttony, and gave the big speech about how "we homunculi love our creators" that none of the others *quite* seemed to live up to.
My reading of this is that Greed contained Father's desire for companionship, whereas Lust contained his ability to genuinely care about others for their own sakes rather than his own. You can see that while Greed valued his friends, he still only saw them as property (at least until his character development). Meanwhile, Lust genuinely cared about the other homunculi, but had nothing but contempt for beings who weren't technically part of herself.
I'm pretty sure that if you combined Greed and Lust, you'd get the dwarf in the flask's complete set of human social instincts.
Idk why people are in these comments saying "The thing everyone forgets about Father" when like, this is literally made SO obvious. Everyone knows this. Some of us just disagree that it makes him a better villain.
I think Father was some one who secretly felt so insecure about being a tiny thing in a flask that could die if the container broke- leaving him with an intense fear of death and incredible isolation that nothing really filled the void even what he did get was particularly impressive. Becoming a genuinely intimidating older looking man who looked like the traditional depiction of God with no perceived limit on how strong his Alchemy mastery that far outclassed everyone outside of Hohenheim was outside of it not being the Truth and having a family that was mostly loyal to him outside of one exception and having an even stronger form behind it that would warp matter and himself without apparent limits, with an nonspecific lifespan that seemed almost endless outside of intense injuries is impressive for any villain. Yet, he still felt it wasn't enough and he get for the Sun/The Truth, and in the end it burned him metaphorically as he spent too much time on an unattainable ideal, not accounting for the humans and his own child that would undermine him, making his ultimate goal, being in theory more powerful than before, an inevitable death, even without Greed's interference as he would've run out of souls to avoid a rebound that would drag him back into nothingness.
I just finished watching FMAB for the first time and your last paragraph struck a note with a thought I had afterwards, in particular about the rebound and running out of souls to maintain The Truth/God within his body. Was it a fundamentally flawed idea for Father to gain that sort of power even if it meant he couldn’t contain it indefinitely? Definitely something to mull over while I start up FMA 03 now!
@@Runescapevidproducer Yes, the few decades he did the first time theoretically worked because it was just a small nation that even centuries later no one truly knew about, of surprisingly trusting people that he could take advantage of and it worked because no one suspected anything and as far we knew, it gave him a very powerful body with very varied abilities as the Homunculi demonstrate and an undefined lifespan almost limitless given he didn't gravely injure himself. He finally had a body, yet he looked to the stars and wanted more.
The next time wasn't so lucky as he now had with centuries, people beginning to pick up on the conspiracy and people he inadvertently created a problem- literally or metaphorically that undermined him. And because he gave up more and more of himself to be his eyes and ears because he never learned to trust humans (who normally would be very against his plans unless they were fanatic cultists) ironically, in the pursuit of perfection, he was left with a shell of his peak centuries earlier that would've been more helpful in containing God and would've halted the rebound. He was his own worst enemy.
Jesus man u gotta use more commas
he flew too close to the sun and his wings melted and he came crashing down to earth
I have to disagree about your assertion that Dante would be more interesting with a flashback. One of the biggest crutches in writing today is to have a backstory that "will totally explain everything about why this character acts this way, I mean it!" when ambiguity can be just as (if not more) effective. Dante explains her backstory, never letting the audience forget that *this is how Dante sees herself.* That alone tells you more about her than Father's backstory episode that gives much more information, but far less emotion. By letting Dante explain her own story, we learn more about her hatred of Hohenheim and Ed than we would if we saw events play out objectively.
It seems like an inverse "tell and don't show," but that isn't true. Instead, we are being shown what her mind is by how she chooses to frame her own story. An objective flashback would be much more in line with telling and not showing, by giving us all of the info but not necessarily showing us how Dante personally interprets these events.
You can absolutely do both very well, but I want to defend the decision to leave ambiguity about specifics and let Dante's interpret her own past into her own narrative.
That's totally fair. My desire for a flashback is totally subjective and I agree that explaining everything about the character can be enormously detrimental. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I enjoyed reading them :)
Completely True.
But the thing is even with an objective flashback we would still have an understanding of how she frames her past, none of that changes with the addition of an objective flashback. If anything it would add more to her character since we can see the facts that she may have chosen to ignore with her own interpretation.
Ambiguity is all fine and dandy but I think the addition of actual events would do wonders for her character since we could see her entire line of reasoning for how she came to frame her past.
@@breakpoint43 I'd argue that the issue is pacing. If we've already seen an objective flashback, having Dante tell us her story is just repeating what we already know. Yes, it may give a little bit more nuance to her, but it grinds the story to a halt. If this was a Rashomon-style story in which several characters tell us about the events of FMA and that is the meat of the story, that would be fine. But this isn't Dante's story, and devoting that much time to her is ultimately a poor decision, imo.
Not that the show gets pacing perfect, by any means. The whole Dante section is admittedly rushed. But I think that she is far more important (and interesting) as a foil to Ed than as a character in her own right. Let's look at Lust and compare her to Dante for a second.
Lust got a backstory episode that did a good job of developing her, but I think that she is more central to the plot and she functions differently as a foil: Dante is there to test Ed's core beliefs in equivalent exchange (IIRC, it has been years since I watched the show), while Lust is exhibit #1 on the human cost of the Philosopher's Stone. Lust's backstory helps show the dangers of Ed's quest, while Dante's backstory is there to give her a little bit more depth as she challenges Ed's worldview. We only need to know her mindset, not get a full backstory and her own interpretation of that backstory and maybe even Hohenheim's view of the story. It would be diluting her purpose as a device in the narrative.
I may be making all of this up, as specifics are eluding my memory. But eh, it sounds right. :D
@@breakpoint43 Oh, oh! I just came up with an example of what I'm talking about with Dante being important as a foil to Ed, but not really being an important character in her own right. Consider Darth Vader. Spoilers for Star Wars/Empire Strikes Back below... for all two people in the world living under a rock.
The big twist of the whole SW saga is the reveal of Vader being Luke's father. SUPER IMPORTANT! Earth shattering revelation. But how much does it tell us about Vader? Honestly, pretty much nothing. He's still the scary bad guy in black. What does it tell us about Luke? *Everything.* Luke has based his whole life on being a hero like his father, trusting Ben and his uncle, fighting for the rebellion to be just like Dad. And then the harsh, crushing truth: Everything he ever believed was a lie. His father wasn't murdered by Darth Vader. Ben and Uncle Owen lied to him. He was kept on that farm for his whole life, hating the Empire. He watched Vader kill Ben in front of his eyes, and joined a resistance group to destroy the murderer of everyone he ever loved (for the Empire is also behind Owen and Beru's deaths). To hear Vader make this proclamation makes Luke question everything he believes.
We don't need three movies to tell us everything about Vader and how he became the villain of the story. We don't need him to say much of anything. We just need one sentence to make Luke doubt everything he has ever believed. That is the importance of Vader's backstory. His existence is a challenge to Luke's belief in the Force, in his friends, in his whole growth as a person.
Dante serves the same role, although not as successfully. Her sole purpose in the story is to challenge Ed's belief system, much like Vader (true, Vader is also a scary antagonistic force, but he's a pretty flat character prior to this statement... and doesn't grow that much, imho). Unlike Vader's big pronouncement, her backstory is pretty well superfluous. She could be a homunculus in a flask trying to preserve eternal life, and it wouldn't matter much. The importance is what she means to Ed: Hence trying to give her some personal pull by making her Hohenheim's lover, which is kind of interesting but doesn't really develop into much of anything.
But giving her more backstory doesn't change what she means to Ed: She is the antithesis of his belief in equivalent exchange. She is entropy, a force that always takes more fuel than the energy it puts out. That is what is important, and her backstory is just enough to illustrate this without belaboring the point.
I think the thing about Father is that his aspirations are so big, where is Dante’s aspirations are so tiny and personal, that it’s really just exploring the evil in being selfish and hypocritical. She doesn’t want to take over the world or anything like that - she wants to be immortal and possibly have sex with Ed/Hohenheim while she’s at it. In a story that’s far more intimate (seriously am I the only one who notices that 2003 is more about the Brothers than the one called Brotherhood) it’s how small and dangerously personal she is that makes her genuinely horrifying.
She sees the absolute worst in humanity will be going herself as above human and not noticing that she is the worst in humanity.
And she has the better theme music.
The Awesamazing Eden
For me, the Brotherhood in the title is less about the literal brotherhood between Edward and Alphonse. But more represents the brotherhood between both them and the rest of the cast, as it feels the manga emphasizes the importance of connection between humanity creating strength and making the journey worth it. Which 2003 also touches upon, but in a more personal way I feel like.
I like Dante so much more exactly for the point you make. Dante's goal is so personal, selfish, human
Father is another shonen uber big final boss
I've said the exact quote "2003 is ironically more about the brothers than the show actually called Brotherhood" many, many, MANY times. I also thought I was the only one who noticed that 😂
YES, Dante's theme is haunting.
Heh I like both vilains but I feel like they have a lot of wasted potential, I like that Father is the opposite of Hohenheim (and mangahood is about Hohenheim as much as it is about Ed and Al imo) in pretty much every way except physical
Unlike Hohenheim who just wanted to be free from slavery and have a normal life Father just wants to be above god, being the living representation of how Alchemy and alchemists are seen as in Amestris (unlike in Xing, where Hohenheim taught them a way to use alchemy mostly for medicinal purposes) and of course where Father doesn't care about his "children" and just uses them to reach his goals, Hohenheim despite being understandably distant genuinely cares about Ed and Al but yeah while these elements are here, mangahood doesn't really do enough with it, which is probably why he's often seen as "generic anime vilain who want to rule the world or something"
And yeah Dante is great too, she's in a way the opposite of Al, she wants an immortal body (like Al in 2003) even if it isn't hers and has to hurt and kill others to do it, her goals are less generic than Father (tho not by much) and are much more personnal but I feel like they just don't do enough with her, she's introduced relatively late into the story (compared to Father) and even later as an antagonist, she shares one short scene with Hohenheim before he's yeeted into the other world and as Lowart says we're told about her and Hohenheim's backstory but barely see any of it (and of course we don't need to know everything about her but I feel like in this case we have what could be an emotional and much more interresting story but barely anything is done with it besides Dante explaining it to us, it's as if we were quickly told about Ed and Al human transmutation instead of showing it to us), her relationship with Envy is also not really explored like it is with let's say Sloth and Ed/Al, she's a good vilain but god damn she could have been so much better
Also totally agree that Dante has the better theme but that's a regular thing with 2003
Dante is scarier as a villain to me because she is so human. There are people like her throughout the world in positions of power and influence that do heinous things.
Bro father is way worse dude was about to cause human extinction
Father is human though
Homunculus is essentially an artificial human
@@Xeno391 i think what op means by "she is so human" is that she is more realistic. She is selfish & prideful yet still believes she is doing something for the greater good like many of the people in power today, there aren't many people scheming to devour god and planning to cause human extinction are there ?
The two series are like alternate universes, but more complex than ever elaborated on in the 2003 anime.
I didn't find Dante elaborate. So many of the main characters gets side line in the 2003 version
Christopher Marshall like who there’s literally less characters that get more character development compared to brotherhood
9999 Savage stop the cap
Jacob Baker what are you talking about???
9999 Savage that FMA didn’t have more character development than FMA brotherhood
Fuck, but I miss both of these shows now. I wish there was something on the same level as this Fullmetal Alchemist. Anything. That's not to say that it's perfect. But it really is one of a kind. Watching FMA for the first time is a feeling I just haven't had since, but left such a strong impression that I can still remember to this day.
I mean atleast in my opinion there are a couple like beserk hunter x hunter jojo part 7 and death note are in the same ball park
Marco Meijer gae
Sai Jj Dont talk about jojo’s here
@@toolazyforaname As a not big fan of Jojo I can say that Steel Ball Run is genuinely great tho, let it pass
try out snk(skingeky no kyojin), it's amazaing, even better then fma in my opinion.
I always loved the romantic idea of two lovers sacrificing an entire city to sustain themselves. Much like their love the city that was sacrificed is destroyed and hidden.
I'm pretty much with you on the neutral stance, when comparing these villains. While I do like Father more as a character, due to his design, powers, and more developed back story, I give Dante points for being just so hatable. She's an extremely selfish woman, and while she claims her actions better the world, really, she's only concerned with her own self-preservation at the cost of others. She isn't presented in a cool frame, as opposed to villains like Madara, Sephiroth, and Vader. Dante is just a horrible human being, and that alone sums up her character perfectly.
Both types of villains have their advantages, for scenes with Father, I am going to be amazed by the power and presence he has, while with Dante I am going to be frustrated and bitter at her, for all the right narrative reasons.
I think people dont like dante probably because the last épisodes of FMA03 seem a little rushed. Kimblee, Greed, King bradley, too did not have a real exploration of their personnalities and story.
Side note: I really like how we dont know dantes real face, as she keeps stealing others bodies to survive, she becomes an entity with no distinct feature, only her will to control other humans search for power stays. Its also interesting that altough she despises humans, she still needs them to feel/be Alive.
In this show bodies are often used or objectified or vice versa souls need an armor to be "Alive".
I really liked the concept of transcending physical limitations and derealization together (ie al identity crisis, the psychological need of the human body to feel "complete ", etc), it goes hand and hand pretty well.
I definitely disagree on the notion that Greed WASN'T explored, he was just explored differently, but the thing with the exploration of the homunculi's that 03 focused on them no less than FMAB, they just focused on different homunculi.
Dante is a villain that on paper is something that I feel like I should really like, but I just don't care for her. Her speech about the holes in equivalent exchange and the way she manipulates people on a personal level is cool and all, but I think it was just all the stuff that surrounded her character during the later half of the show that really does a disservice to her. There were just so many jump sharking moments during the last few episodes that I really just stopped caring and couldn't get invested into her.
@@Peasham I Didnt say they were not explored at all, I meant they could have had more details, but maybe it's just me because I really enjoyed Greed and his team of chimeres
I disliked all the stuff with Germany, it’s like, yeah the setting looks like Germany and is a fairly realistic fantasy world, NOW HOW CAN WE DROP ANY SUBTLETY?
I find it odd to mention Kimblee as an example of no real exploration. I mean, considering that he had an entire monologue in his final showdown against Scar which encapsulated his nihilistic worldview. I never saw _anything_ like that coming out of him in Brotherhood.
Dante and Father are complete opposites to one another. Like day and night.
Dante was a human that was cursed with immortality while Father was an immortal cursed with humanity.
Dante lost what Father could never understand, Dante wanted to live in a cage/Human Existence while Father wanted to free himself from his cage/ human existence by consuming "God".
And at the end of their stories Dante gained the freedom of death while Father lives on, caged behind the gate.
Also it was Father's *Greed* for everything and Dante's *Lust* and *Gluttony* for immortality that were their eventual downfalls. Especially when both Dante directly stripped Gluttony's humanity like she gave up her own while Father indirectly allowing Greed to gain humanity, something he never truly wanted.
Dante and Edward's relationship is far deeper than it seems to be, and that Dante is one hell of a Shadow Archetype to Edward:
Firstly, both Dante and Edward had an opportunity to restore a loved one using the Philosopher’s Stone. Edward, after learning the true nature of the stone, refused to sacrifice society’s undesireables (convicted criminals) to restore his brother, even though he was clearly tempted. He, like Alphonse, decides that they don’t want to be restored if a single person needs to die. Dante, unlike Edward, sacrificed undesireables (persecuted “witches” and those dying of the plague, who were more innocent than the criminals), but she didn’t hesitate for a moment. When Hohenheim nearly died as a result of the transmutation, she also didn’t hesitate to sacrifice their butler to restore her loved one to a new body, showing that she came to the opposite conclusion.
Continuing from the first point, Dante shows what Edward could have become if he had compromised his morals for Alphonse. Both Edward and Dante are exceptionally gifted alchemists, but Dante, unlike Edward, allowed her natural talent to feed her ego. Edward connects with non-alchemists like Winry and develops meaningful relationships with the less gifted. Dante, on the other hand, separates herself from the rest of humanity. As Izumi pointed out, she looks down on the masses from her hilltop, seeing them as nothing more than “petty, egotistical things” who didn’t deserve her help. Dante’s “Grand Theft Me” plot is a twisted reflection of Ed and Al’s journey to restore themselves: if tens of millions of lives need to be sacrificed so she can live for another year, so be it. Contrast this with Edward, who frequently uses his alchemy to help others. If Edward didn’t have Winry, Alphonse, and Izumi to keep him in check, he could have easily gone down this route.
Both Edward and Dante demonstrate atheistic beliefs, but their convictions lead them to different conclusions about reality. Edward is clearly suspicious of gods and religion, but believes in a meaningful world governed by Equivalent Exchange. He has a strong appreciation for human life. Dante, however, believes the world is innately meaningless. She demonstrates a clear disdain for humanity, which is reflected through her belief that her homunculi should be purged of human emotions. Edward’s beliefs make him a humanist, while Dante’s lead her down the path of nihilism.
Dante and Edward are forced to see the valid points in each other’s philosophies at the end of the series, and Dante is defeated because, unlike Edward, she fails to re-evaluate her beliefs. Edward accepts that the principle of Equivalent Exchange is flawed, but sticks to his humanist principles and doesn’t embrace Dante’s doctrine of a “beautifully chaotic world.” Dante’s moment of clarity is much more sutble than Edward’s - when Gluttony comes in and breaks down over Lust’s death, she stares at him for a moment and looks visibly uncomfortable. In this brief moment, she sees the strength of humanity and realizes that people may have dignity after all. Instead of changing her beliefs like Edward, however, she remains closed-minded and purges Gluttony of his humanity. What she doesn’t realize is that his humanity allowed Gluttony to fear and respect her, and without that, Dante becomes just another meal to him.
Ultimately, Fullmetal Alchemist focuses on Edward and Alphonse’s coming of age. They’re thrust into an ugly world, but instead of abandoning their principles and becoming like Dante, they find a middle ground. They realize their philosophy on life isn’t perfect and there’s always room for growth. In a story where growing up is the central theme, Dante is the ideal antagonist because she flat-out refuses to grow and learn from the world around her.
... Glorious.
Can you give me your thoughts about father?
Did you rip this from TV Tropes
I think that you have chosen the right approach to evaluate Dante from the point of view of Jungian archetypes, but Dante in my opinion is more suitable for the Chthonic Devouring Mother archetype, and the Shadow Archetype is suitable for Envy
Amazing analysis on Dante and Gluttony, amazing ending and summary.
Always love hearing Michiru Oshima’s perfect soundtrack in your videos. Her music elevates the art form.
It's been so long since I rewatched '03 that noticing the track behind the Dante analysis literally gave me chills. Such a good, memorable melody
She is an amazing composer
FMA 2003 is genuinely one of my all time favorite pieces of media of all time, and it's telling that I know so much about Father and I literally did not remember who the freak Dante even was until I watched this video, and I had the moment of "oh yea she did exist in that show"
X2 😅
X2 Yes!!
I personally love FMA 03 because it was part of my childhood and although I know that FMA brotherhood is better in general, I still love o3.... but when I saw this I was like who is Dante???
and although I only saw brotherhood once compared to 03, Father was much more memorable and an antagonist that you hate but can't hate because his whole story is a big weight in the anime.
I feel that Dante had everything she needed to be a great antagonist but things always happened that overshadowed her or her story was not given real weight.
I really really appreciate Lowart for being the only person on TH-cam to view the greatness of both of these series without feeling he has to pin them against each other. Even though the videos say “versus“ I never feel bad for liking 2003 more than Brotherhood when I watch these videos. It’s just a really nice feeling that I don’t get anywhere else.
I've been waiting for this :).
What separates the two villains the most is possibly how human Dante is and how inhuman the Father feels. They instigate different reactions in the protagonists and the audience. The division in the fandom is the result of the preference they have, I guess.
Father is interesting in that on the surface he feels nonhuman but the more you look the more ironically human he really is.
He just never learns from his flaws like actual humans do
Dante is weird pedo lady
Father is Satan without the Satan
What we see from the other Homunculi (especially Greed, though not exclusively) along with some of his own behaviors that persist after making them is is that Father clearly was more human than he seems, despite his efforts to not be. This is something that the Truth even calls him out on before banishing him to the Gate
Father's motivations are pretty much entirely based on petty things, like having things Hohenheim has (or could have naturally as a human) that he never could. He's so obsessed with being free of limitations because he envied Hohenheim's relative freedom compared to his own (even as a slave). He had the seven deadly sins call him "Father" because having a family was something Hohenheim could do that he couldnt (but he also longed for family himself to some extent, and he turned his "brother" against him with his deception and destroying Xerxes). When he finally achieves his perfected state and could look like anything he wanted, he doesnt choose an inhuman form like his original appearance (which he supposedly took a lot of pride in)--he *chooses* to look like a hotter version of young Hohenheim
At a glance, Father seems less human than Dante, but in some ways, he was actually moreso than she was. All of the Homunculi are just pieces of himself, and there are some recurring patterns in their personalities and motivations that align with Father's backstory and actions when you actually look more closely at them.
Dante has the same goal as the protagonists: Getting the philosopher’s stone, and she questions Equivalent Exchange which Ed has to question over and over again throughout the entire series. She’s more of a monster than the actual monsters and honestly I think she ties in perfectly with the themes of the series.
I often see people talking about the irony present in the deaths of Mangahood's seven homunculi, but I think Father's death was the most ironic by far. His lifelong goal was to leave his flask, whatever form it may take.
In his final scene when Truth confronts him, he is reduced to his initial form, but he is no longer in the flask as he continues to spout his ideals and act blatantly confrontational towards Truth (literally "defying God").
Then, there's the moment where it dawns on him what his exact fate is. He stares at the gaping doorway with a look of disbelief and horror as he realizes that he's going to be trapped eternally in yet another flask.
That and he got what he wished: be part of god
I’ve always preferred Dante personally. Something about a person motivated by such a petty, fundamentally human thing as fear of death and age resonates with me more than a doomsday villain out for ultimate power. In a way, it reflects the split I feel between intimacy vs grandeur that makes me prefer the 03 series as a whole.
I prefer Father, I really love his relationship with Van Hoenhien and how the Homonculus are an extension to his personality, and I love how his motivation was to become perfect and thus extirped all of his human flaws only achiving to become a former shell of the person who he use to be.
I believe the peoplewho label Father as a generic shonen vilian are missing the point of her characters and the themes attached to him.
I was just about to make a comment just like this. Glad to see i'm not the only one who feels that way
@@carmena.gonzalezrios8372 I agree
I feel like I should really like Dante since she does have a very petty motivation and has some pretty cool moments, but I don't. I think that's because I was so distracted by just how bonkers and stupid the 03's plot became in the end that it just became really hard to take Dante or anything for that seriously. Like her speech on equivalent exchange is really cool and all, but its sandwiched between cartoonishly evil terminator man and Ed being sent into an alternate dimension where London is being bombarded by zeppelins.
By herself, Dante is more interesting villain than Father. But in terms of how both shows handled their villains within the overall story, Father is used much better. His build-up is better, his final arc is much more tonally consistent, there twists are better handled, and there's just a whole lot less stupid going on to take you out of the moment.
Honestly I feel the same way, I was very disappointed with Father, but I do plan on rewatching Broho and try to enjoy it for what it is, rather than what it's not
Not sure if there's a comparison video, but I'd love to see one done for both versions of Edward Elric. And the sheer differences between them. Especially in the end when one broke their no killing rule (2003 Ed) and one who stuck by them (Brotherhood Ed).
Important thing to note with Father's backstory is that it's not just *his* backstory, it's also Hohenheim's. We see a much more objective version of events surrounding him because we see them through Honhenheim's eyes, establishing the threat Father poses as well as the basis for Hohenheim's guilt. Personally, I think it does a good job since the two are meant to be reflections of each other.
-
Again, Dante's works well, too, since it's very clearly from her perspective, underlining how detached and deluded she is in her motivations.
''Sometimes sitting on the fence hurts your butt.''
One can only sit on the fence so long without hurting. Being indecisive for too long will often incur a cost with it. Most people will hate you, if you don't take their side.
Showing Dante's backstory would be a cheat and diverge from the focus on character's motivations and the justification for their action. She's the villain of the show, there's no doubt about it. But the reasoning for her actions is understandable if not justifiable. Not knowing adds some doubt into the viewer's eye about how much victim or villain she is
She is not that great of a villian..so a backstory wouldnt have hurt at all.
Backstory doesn't make a good villan though
@@SilverMontegiu no but it does give some reasoning and depth to characters. In dantes case it would have definitely given her more nuance. She was handled well overall though.
@@SilverMontegiu Depends on the situation. If the villain has an objective point to what they're doing but going about the wrong way, knowing the circumstances of how things came to be that way adds context and can change everything. Does it make their actions justified, maybe not, but it does turn them from an asshole to a person with misguided intentions
Dante greatest compliment is being eaten .
Father being a villian was base on how easily he can get people to turn on their beliefs and people. Even Van Hohenheim was fine with sacrificing their people. From start to finish brotherhood was more about duty vs morality. I like that ed never lets up on his father. Father literally corruptes the people around him to have a lasting affect the world. Father is an inbodment of people like hilter.
I think the main reason I prefer Father over Dante is because a lot of people tend to forget that the homunculus are all technically extensions of his being and character.
Envy. Gluttony. Greed. Lust. Pride. Sloth. Wrath. They all came from Father and whatever you liked about them also existed in father. So it’s best to see them together as one combined character.
I never forgot that. I just think it's a bit cringe, personally. I prefer the homunculi being a direct consequence of the actions of humans - a final punishment for the sin of human transmutation. As someone else in these comments put it, in BH they only exist because "black goo hates humans" and to me, that's boring as hell. I'm sorry.
Finally! Somebody brought this up!
His children, like he said out of his own mouth are pieces of his own soul. And their behavior reflects part of who he is, whether he knows it or not. It is shown multiple times throughout the second anime that many of the homunculi are not aware of their own contradictory nature. Especially anything that ties them to the human race.
Envy is the biggest example of this.
That moment when you realize greed means Father once wanted friendship@@SnowyWolborg
@@LordofFullmetalthere are already enough consequences for human transmutation. Homunculi being the result of that just undermines the point and creates issues. You can’t create humans. Homunculi being Father’s separated desires created in his pursuit of becoming above humans does for a much better thematic work.
@@user-po9sd8nq8v okay so a couple of things here. Firstly on the consequences part, while in both versions it has consequences on the individual who performed the transmutation that is as far as the consequences go, this is thematically at odds with the series focus on the interconnected nature of the world and the responsibility we have towards it. I think it was a brilliant decision in 03 for the consequences of going against the flow of the world to be broader reaching than the limited scope of our characters bodies being impacted, it does a great job playing into the themes of the one and the all and Ed’s journey towards accepting his place in it.
As for the part about creating people. In all versions it is possible to create homunculi who are by definition “artificial humans” who are for all intents and purposes human in appearance, cognitive ability, and even elemental composition. In both versions it still remains impossible to bring back the dead. The homunculi in 03 are not the same people as who were attempted to be brought back.
In concept I think the examination of the sins as distilled components father excised from himself is interesting as well, (though I do think the execution fell short at times, in particular with father being supposed to demonstrate the necessity for the sins being unable to relate to humans without them etc… but every action he makes is directly motivated by the sins undercutting this whole concept.) Still I do like the thought and some of the homunculi it examined with it (wrath, greed and envy) I really enjoy.
Overall I like both concepts and how both shows approached the thematics from different angles even if I have a preference for 03’s approach and think it was better executed.
We knew too little about Father's "species" to hate or even judge him imo. He only came across as pitiful to me.
He's basically *less* than human because he cast away his 7 deadly sins, the things that make people who they are
I think the intention is to pity Father, rather than to hate him.
I mean for all intents and purposes he is human. I like to think that he is just as capable of understanding the answer as Ed was, he just made poor decisions.
I think that was intentional, and it's one of the things I really liked about him. Most of the series I felt he was kinda 'meh', emotionless boring being is boring and doesn't inspire emotions, and it was impossible to reconcile him with flashback Dward-in-the-Flask. But then his final scene, reduced to his original powerless form, begging for mercy as he was tossed into the uncaring Truth? I could see so clearly how his simple desire for freedom had driven him to his end - even as powerful as he was, he never felt truly free. In the end, he was just as pitiful and sad and human as the rest of us.
Nah, can't see it. Probably because he killed Greed (twice!)
I always thought the reason houenheim was made into a philosopher's stone is because father needed to be held at the center
Yes that's also possible--either way, I guess it would be a logical reason related to his plans vs a more emotional reason related to some attachment to Hohenheim (or a mix of the 2, perhaps)
not really, he could'e just been left sitting in the center and it would've worked fine, nothing is pointing to that not being the case.
ultimately his feelings about hohenheim are left purposely ambiguous
Father tells Hohenheim that he gave him immortality and expected him to be thankful for it, it seems really deliberate not just something that happened as an unavoidable byproduct, Hohenheim holding him was not a must for the thing to work, he could have easily made sure he was alone at the center if he wanted
Dwarf: Stand in the middle with me.
Hohenheim: Couldn't I just place you on the ground in the middle?
Dwarf: OH MY GOD WHY ARE YOU ALWAYS LIKE THIS!
Dwarf and Hohenheim Buddy comedy when?!
in my opinion, brotherhood had a better-structured story and was easier to follow, while the 2003 original anime adaptation was quite a bit darker which I liked.
The reason I enjoyed Father more wasn't really because I think he's a better villain... but because the overall story appealed to me more. His place in the narrative fitted the themes and the ending was more satisfying, because the manga had one of the best, well thought-out plots I've ever seen in fiction. Dante's still pretty cool though.
FMA 2003 was one of my first anime and only because I accidently watched it instead of Brotherhood since I didn't know anything about anime at the time. I'm so glad I made that mistake because it's amazing and IDK if I would have ever watched it otherwise. Even though brotherhood is next level, 2003 is still one of the best anime in it's own right. It's just sad they will always be compared.
I was always salty about how the story did not explore Father's loneliness. To me, it always felt like he did want a family and connection yet, mostly because of the King, he received a lot of bad influence from the humans and thus grew into something evil.
To me, the most painful part of Father's character is that he is a very human person who attempts to achieve greatness through desperately disregarding his humanity, even though his human flaws are the source of his desires, while in the end, he fails because the true way to greatness was through embracing humanity, not rejecting it.
I feel the same about all the homunculi. I think they could really benefit from a spin-off/prequel showing how Father created them and Amestris and how they interact with each other. Also to add some more depth like idk Lust wanting a lover or Envy showing little signs of jealousy.
One is unique and thematically interesting(Father) while the other is personally more intimate but largely a little dull when it came to the endgame(Dante)...a mixture of both of these villains would work perfectly in a live-action TV series, Dante being a homunculus dwarf in the flask before van Hohenheim and the destruction of Xerxes, which gives her a female body whom van Hohenheim initially fell in love with and entered into a whirlwind romance with her that would give birth to a child. This child and they lived happily till the child died of mercury poisoning and van Hohenheim would try to use human transmutation to bring the child back. Creating a deformed and bloody humanoid with a piece of the child's soul still inside him. Envy is the first human-based homunculus, unable to face up to what he had done to his son, van Hohenheim would abandon both Dante and envy. Envy would be a malformed humanoid form for a few years, unable to speak, but constantly bleeding and crying as Dante rearranged his body with all the skill of a mad chiropractor, feeding him small fragments of her Philosopher's Stone every few days to relieve the pain just enough for him to sleep until she discovered how to make mass quantities through the slaughter of many, which allowed him to take on a proper human shape and finally take away the physical pain, the abandonment of Hohenheim and envy's creation would cause dante to decide to absorb god and become immortal and creates amestris precisely for that purpose. Envy's hatred for his father and need to kill him would be intact and it will be his main goal. Whereas the rest just want to serve Dante in her quest to absorb God, envy wants to kill van Hohenheim. His hatred for doctor Marco being rooted in the fact that all alchemists remind him of his father. His killing of the ishvallan girl being rooted in intense jealousy of seeing her with her parents. His hatred for Edward being rooted in the fact that the Elric brothers received the fatherly love that he never did
That's brilliant
Dante is more realistic. Father is typical shonen trash evil guy
Dante is waaay better
@@gijane2cantwaittoseeyou203 IS he though? I hear this arguement a lot but yeah he spends a lot of time sitting on his ass and ultimately wants to 'eat god', I don't feel these make him 'typical shonen trash'. His motives are pretty interesting once you think about them, and his relationship with his minions is QUITE interesting and different.
This is pretty frickin' great, really. What are some of your other ideas for a FMA series? Mine is like a mix between Brotherhood epic lore, and 2003's haunting, personal tale, and waaay more serious with the tone, ala 2003. But in my version, Dante and Father are kept separate entities. But yours is even better! If you'd like, we can share some ideas!
I know it is from 2003 and past the "statute of limitations" for spoilers, but for those haven't seen the series all the way through, having a major spoiler for Lyra/Dante's Identity in the thumbnail kinda stinks.
RIP the feed of new fans, oof.
Wow, that's very very true.
father: darth sidious from star wars
dante: the architect from matrix
choose your own poison
I honestly love the fact that there are two different versions of FMA, it takes the original ideas and takes them into two different ways giving us different major antagonists and even the characters they share have different personalities, goals and reactions. I honestly just love seeing different takes on something which is why I love the concept of Spider-Verse or Spider-Verse like stories or the Just Imagine Stan Lee Creating the DC Universe because we see familiar characters and/or concepts but taken differently so it can explore ideas the other version was not able to and creating its own pros and cons.
Man FMA 03's aesthetic and directing are phenomenal
It's been years, and I just love how the series is still being talked about. It really left a legacy.
Dante is just Orochimaru, just without the snake motif.
I prefer Dante simply because she is still a threat despite being less powerful. She doesn't want to kill God, she just wants to live forever and continue watching over the humans she rejected.
Dante had more to her
If 03 had ended better i genuinely believe that giving Dante a longer arc, making shamballa a 12 episode season, and less bad CG wouldve made 03 the superior show completely
@@V2ULTRAKill It is already a superior show. The last eleven episodes of 03 are my favourite piece of media to come out of Japan, while the final fight in Brotherhood is complete garbage until the Greed sacrifice scene.
@@genyakozlov1316 eh 03 sorta ends on a clusterfuck i love 03 much more but it needed more episodes to simmer on its ending. Solid 8/10
But wanting to kill God and wanting immortality are pretty much the same thing if summed from a philosphical stance. BEcause "Killing God" precisly mean becoming God and stripping of that "equivalent exchange" that is life and death.
Yeah, this is very similar to how I always felt about the two villains, liked them about the same and both are equally effective/fine for their series. While they have their similarities, their differences make each have their own unique “flavors” as villains, Father for his epic “man behind the curtain” conspiracies and cosmic aspirations, while Dante’s exemplifies the extreme human flaws of spite and pettiness.
While I believe both villians fit well with their prospective series, I do prefer Dante. Just because she challenges Edward's worldview. Her speech isn't the only pushback she gives, her being alive and doing what she is doing proves that equivalent exchange doesn't exist. I also find it refreshing that she is an antagonist that you can hate freely. I love redemption arcs and sympathy pulls as much as the next person, but im kind of burnt out on them. Some of them really aren't enough to justify what the villian does, but the story will continue like it is. It is a problem, especially nowadays.
I find it interesting that one of the issues with Father is that he has cast off all his sins. His rejection of sin makes him a monster. Dante on the other hand leans too much into her sins. She indulges in all of them. Her greed( wanting to live forever, even when she has lived for 400 years), her wrath( her pettiness, and disgust at other humans), her pride( belief that she is better than everyone and she is worth all of the suffering she causes,) her envy( fixation on Hoenhiem and his family with Trisha), her sloth( manipulating and using the homunculi to do almost all of the work), her gluttony ( eating up others lives to sustain herself) , and her lust( wanting to have sex with Edward, just because of his father). Its just cool to see the shows connect in this way.
I was literally just watching your other FMA videos and was like "I wonder how long it will be for the next one..." And bam.
Can we all take moment to realize we got two adaptations of a manga that were both awesome?
The one that wrote the first half of the adaptation was the person that did an anime called "the twelve kindongs " ( a really interesting anime to watch)
I like how full metal alchemist really connects to philosophy. I took that class in college and after watching both shows again, I could the concepts I learned from that class to characters in the show
I love how the comment section is split right down the middle. It just to go to show how amazing both shows are!
Father makes Hohenheim a philosopher's stone because he needs a witness. His pride won't allow his grandeur to go unremembered and unappreciated.
Both of these are top 15 animes for me. Idk why people shit on one or the other, they both have different objectives and successfully accomplish them in their own ways. Both are excellent shows, neither are “trash”.
I think because its because people want to reaffirm something as the 'definitive' verison of FMA that they'll knock anything down that isn't their prized cow.
What I liked about 2003 is that it's short. It's a tight story that once it tells it gets our of its own way. It feels a lot more personal to me as well.
I’ve waited so long for a FMA video. FINALLY!!!!!
I have been waiting so long for another video from you on FMA and this was not disappointing. THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!
was it only me coming here watching the fma first and b after ..forgetting all about dante and i couldn't remember till 15 min in ??
Although the motivations of both are very well worked, if we talk about coherence in the story, Father is the winner. Dante was introduced in the last chapters and tried to explain (in a forced way) that she all the time controlled everything from the shadows and blah blah blah, too convenient. In Brotherhood, the whole story is built by half a father and his inferiority complex. His ending is ironic because he was only looking for freedom, but is trapped inside the door of truth.
Wrong
@@graylyhen9490 Where is he wrong?
Father is designed to draw a comparison between the two extremes of understanding Alchemy or just life and the universe in general, with the other extreme being Ed. It's the most apparent in the last scenes of Ed and Father w/ the "Truth' respectively.
Their attitudes to life led them to different endings when confronting "Truth", and the point the author wants to draw out is her preferred explanation to the saying "one is all, all is one". To understand the universe, you must be part of it, and not try to go beyond it. To better yourself, one must accept your own shortcomings, and not try to ignore or cut it off, because they too are part of yourself; to cut them off would only mean cutting off part of yourself, and not bettering yourself.
And from their respective endings, you can obviously tell Ed's answer was considered correct, while Father's wasn't.
Dante has a more apparent personality and relatable goal and all that, but it falls short when you consider what Father stands for in the entire story.
--not to mention Father hella hot, hoooo boy--
Yes! Father got alchemy plastic surgery before the last fight lol.
I’m glad you’re back making these FMA videos!
I've been waiting for so long for this to come out, and I this is really frikin' good
This has inspired me to work through my depression and rewatch the first FMA
You'll enjoy it! Take care of yourself. As someone else who is severely depressed, I know what a help binging an enjoyable show can be.
I really prefer villains with personal stakes in the protagonist's journey than just being a final boss. Granted, Father has connections to Hoenhiem, who leaves Ed, Al and Trisha due to said connection, but it never reached that personal level like it did with Dante. The fact that Sloth was the failed transmutation of their mother added a whole other layer of emotion to the brothers' journey that I still think about to this day.
That and Envy being Dante and Hoheheim's son made his personal sin more intense for me.
Great video, I thought you had stopped making these! I loved the body swapping aspect of Dante one of the coolest villan concepts of all time. With that said I felt she was introduced to abruptly and to close to the end for us to get a proper understanding of her as a character, and what is her true motivations, this uncertainty made her scary in a sense but a little too shallow for my liking
Was just watching the old last fma vid an hour ago and wondered what ever happened to the Dante and father video. Worth the wait
One thing to note in the Anime, Father tells Greed "if you wanted something I wanted it first" Greed then realizes that friends are what he wanted so this begs to raise a question did Father only want a friend but was blind to what he truly wanted?
Ngl I forgot that Dante even existed in the non Brotherhood FMA lol.
Hell, it's easy to forget the 2003 adaptation altogether seeing as how terrible that second half was.
Damn bro I need more. Never get enough of your stuff, especially when you're on about Fullmetal which is like part of my identity-
Keep being you 🥺💯 Stay at it King 👑
First video I've seen by you and honestly just wanted to say that it's great. As somebody who likes both series seeing the two primary villains compared is fantastic!
This is a happy day. I just realized I actually watched FMA like 6 times but never actually saw the Dante version. Literally I remember faintly a few episodes when I was young watching it but I think I switched to the other version by mistake or sth and just kept that as the only version tll this Date. That's on my watch list now thanks
Father is very dry and boring in personality because he(?) discarded or distributed the emotions that would have made up his whole personality into the homunculi. I'm not sure if the sub translations I saw were accurate, but I remember Hohenheim on a couple of occasions saying he liked him better when he was in the flask. This is because despite simply stealing or borrowing from others throughout his existence (evidenced by his blank truth door as opposed to everyone else in the series who had at least tried to learn and experience on their own initiative in good faith with reality) Father did have some personal motivations hinted towards the end, though as you say, they weren't fleshed out much.
The ultimate irony is that when you try to reduce reality to a logical, but overly simplistic, perspective, you can end up assuming that what is only most immediate and present is what has to be attained or despatched. In this sense, Father first thought freedom would be the removal of his flask, but he never really got beyond it in the metaphor of his ambition and hubris. All he really removed was a mere glass receptacle, this is shown to us pretty well in that ending interaction in front of his blank door of truth; he didn't really learn anything and he didn't grow. He manipulated his surroundings and others and gained (temporarily) immeasurable literal power, but this is like a child's fantasy and the question always remains: to what end?
The only end would be if he kept absorbing and growing and piling on more and more acquisitions of reality until everything became him and he became everything, but if his only understanding and power comes purely from borrowed sources, then he would end up as an empty universe until there was no more to be absorbed and no one else to learn/steal from. It's a pursuit without end and for no meaningful existence if he does not learn and grow from it.
I don't know you and sorta stumbled down the youtube hole, but I was surprised at the breakdown you presented on these characters. I really forgot that the first series had its own great moments as well. Wishing you the best for the future!
I'm happy you enjoyed it :) Thank you for your kind words
An amazing continuation to this series. I honestly didn't know of the similarities between Dante and Father. But you layed them out pretty well.
Both Father and Dante are genocidal, self-righteous psychopaths who overestimated their control of situations (thinking they're far above their victims and henchmen).
I've got nothing clever to say. That was great. Although, I'm very much on team Dante.
Also her theme
i was scrolling through comments and all i saw was theories and opinions you were the first one you deserve a like
I feel the same way, except that I'm on team Father. I respect your opinion, though.
There shouldn’t be a team Father or team Dante. Just enjoy things for what they are.
god i recently rewatched both versions of anime and i freaking love your video analyses series
I have been waiting months for you to make more FMA videos! Yes!!
Both shows are good for what they are, even if the 2003 anime felt rushed in its conclusion and the whole “coming to our world leader” felt too fanifiction-y. That being said, I like the 2009 anime more. And that includes Father as a villain. I feel that there is a lot of depth to his character.
Dante is a good villain as well, but there was still something missing that Father did have. Dante wanted to live forever because she had grown used to living like a god and feared death. And I like how they demonstrate that her homunculi are more human than her. While Father wanted to be free of the flask and achieve immortality, which led to him wanting more. Also, it was more than hinted that he did want a family but was constantly rejecting that part of him because of his view on humans.
The one character I feel is done far better than the 2003 version is Von Hoheniem. In the 2003 version, he’s just a dead beat dad who left his family for no real reason. I like that he has regret and sorrow for the things he has done but his past is left too much a mystery and the guy just isn’t sympathetic like the 2009 version is. With the 2009 counterpart, he had a fleshed out backstory and a true reason for leaving. And his conclusion was very satisfying.
In the end, I have to say that Father intrigues me more, as does the 2009 anime itself.
I took it as, Father wasnt always a complete asshole as we saw in the flashbacks. He was actually somewhat likeable and did consider honeheim as his friend. Overtime, after seeing how humans conducted themselves and how honeheim pretty much left him he grew even more bitter than he already was. As soon as Father was born he was treated as worse than a slave which was at the bottom of the totem poll.
Great video. I always remembered Father more, great tool to convey the story overall themes.
I could watch this series forever, keep up the good work!
clear, to the point and, unlike so many other manga/anime reviewers, not pretentious. Great job, although it felt like it ended a bit abruptly.
The first FMA was so good that I didn't even know there was a manga. Plus the opening songs were great.
What a timely upload! Watching Shamballa a second time, liking it even more now.
Good video and excellent writing
The reason I believe Dante is so much better then Father is because of the thesis of the show “what is really human”. Homunculi want to be human. All of the homunculi have human like tendencies, but aren’t fully human. Dante is human but is the most inhuman character in the show. So who is more human, Dante or the Homunculi?
Father barely has a personality and the homunculus that follow him dont either. I cant even really call father a villain because he doesn't fully understand right from wrong.
Dante on the other hand is without a doubt terrible to the core. She doesn't see people as insects but simply values her life and goals above others. She's selfish and cruel, she lies to manipulate others where father doesnt need to lie since his mindset is that of an ignorant child. What's more is how personal her story is when it comes to other characters. Being related to ed and al, their father, how she lies the homunculus, and how she punishes lust for questioning her, her vendetta really knows no bounds.
@@N3XTREVOLUTION 2003 was more interesting imo alot more twisted
@@N3XTREVOLUTION Of course he barely has a personality, he discarded pretty much everything that would allow him to grow and develop to try and become "perfect" and eschewed any personal connections. Which ultimately ended up in him never being able to improve or even grow. What little growth he did have came from his time spent with Hohenheim.
The homunculi similarly are those discarded aspects of Father so they aren't fully developed people either, its only really the ones that in some way are touched by humanity that are able to develop beyond their base natures. The most obvious example being Greed who had the strongest literal connection to humanity and in the end was able to grow completely past the greed he was born from.
@@N3XTREVOLUTION
Im sorry, but the homunculus don't have personalities?
Pride, Wrath, Envy, Greed?
The homunculi do have personalities. They may be somewhat one note at times, but they do have them. Father is so bland for most of the show because his sins have been purged from him. Even though it makes sense why he is the way he is, it does make him( to me) a uninteresting antagonist for most of the series. The homunculi and the truth really do a lot of the heavy lifting. The homunculi are parts of him, but even when we see his original form he shows no mannerisms that can be compared to his sins. So they really feel like separate entities. I felt a spark of curiosity only when he was dying, and thats a shame because he had so much more time in the story than Dante.
From what I remember, Dante just felt like a jealous ex as a character to me. Father in my opinion was the image of an artificial being without a purpose seeking one and seeking a way out of his fears and out of his weaknesses.
this videos are really spectacular. keep it up!
YESSS I WANTED MORE FMA.CONTENT AND YOU DELIVERED. thank c;