“Just because I look out of this window and enjoy the view of the ocean doesn’t mean I can’t look out of that window and enjoy the view of the mountains.” - Charles Ives
My neighbor must think there's something wrong with me. While listening to music in the backyard last week, I went from Bach's Brandenburg Concerto #1 to "The Kinks Are the Village Green Preservation Society".
I do the same, and then I follow it with ABBA’s ‘The Winner Takes It All’ or any other of their glorious mini-dramas OR their bouncy, uplifting stuff. It’s all good!
Yes! I listen to pop stations or CDs, mostly CW, in the car but at home it's mostly classics. Short drives, running errands, I don't like hearing bits and pieces of classical works.
I don't have anything against popular culture. I just don't have time for it. Stacks & stacks of marvellous classical material...more than one lifetime required!
On this topic, one of the best things I ever saw on the Internet was a random obnoxious Facebookite lamenting the state of popular music etc etc., in which they stated that they only listen to "the classics," and included among that category "Bach's 4th." Bach's 4th symphony? Well, if you can find a recording of it I'd love to hear it too! Hell, if you can find the three that came before that, that would be even more remarkable!
I agree with LOT of this. I am Admin of a Facebook Metal Group and notice a parallel with that community too. I am a huge fan of both Classical AND Metal - the two cultures share an elitism but the key difference is that Classical sees itself as "high brow/culture" and looks upon Popular Music as being "low brow/culture". Whereas the Metal scene sees itself as counter-cultural and anti-mainstream, and views mainstream "Popular Music" as being beneath it - trash for the masses. Of course the overarching irony is that the "Metal Elitists" would be subject to the exact same snobbery and elitism from "Classical Elitists" because Metal is technically "Popular Music". In the end - it's a false hierarchy - these artforms are NOT in competition, they are in different lanes. Each form of music is simply suited for a different "mode" of listening. Instant gratification and casual enjoyment are both very VALID. We don't need to trash it in order to attract Classical listeners - all we should do is emphasize that there is music out there that takes a bit more time and effort to appreciate but offers incredible rewards for that extra investment of time and effort.
Metal is unpopular popular music. There's plenty of crossover between metalheads & jazzers, I think; both fan bases revere the old guys, whether it's Miles or Ozzy, both are waiting for the killer solo, both have a cut-off point: 'It was jazz/metal up until (insert subgenre name) & after that it was all this modern shit. That's not even metal/jazz!' And if you're a Meshuggah fan you listen to metal & jazz simultaneously.
@@SO-ym3zs agreed. When I was an impressionable youth I admit I engaged in a little of it, but now I don't care (aside from certain far-right unpleasantness). One of the funnier things is that musicians themselves tend to have very wide ranging tastes, and don't care about genre much, whereas their fans will try and be exclusive, and get really upset if there's some divergence from the perceived genre...
True story. Back in the day of record stores, I was looking through the bins and on the other side was the rock section, with three teens looking through those bins. One of the teens rounded the end of the display and the "V" section was there. He shouted to the other two. "Hey, look. Vivalci. This guy is awesome."
Nearly every Midsummer around St. John's Day, I host a Die Meistersinger party. The whole opera with long intermissions. Food: German Potato salad, bratwurst, strudel, German chocolate cake, and lots of pilsener and Heineken. And/or Gewurztraminer.
@@bbailey7818 Oh, that sounds wunderbar. And only somewhat tangentially, the times I’ve best enjoyed opera have been with friends at home or the like, taking it in freely socially.
I just picked up a bar of mint dark chocolate, which I hope can act as both a prep for the Alpine Symphony and a balance for the edginess of Beethoven's Fifth.
Few producers these days want tunesy film scores. They want pounding, driving scores because it attracts those who want to be excited, not those who like music. I don't have much faith for the future of film music, or even the current state. The youth could always tap into the oldies, but that is not happening.
They sure can if they know they don't have to stop there. The Miyazaki movies have beautiful scores, and the soundtracks are very popular appealing to all ages. The OST for Godzilla Minus One is terrific and dramatic. Someone could make a list of "if you liked this then try..." except it wouldn't have any reach. : (
Not if it's composed by the literal cult/farm.of Hans Zimmer. Even movie music is getting dumber. Hurwitz is just trying to justify being fat with other kinds of behavior lacking delayed gratification.
Back when I was working as a classical producer at a public-radio station, our program director thought it would be interesting to go around the room and ask each of us, "What is something about you that would surprise the rest of us?" I said I love country music. Not all of it, naturally. But the good stuff. Patsy Cline, Dolly Parton, Willie Nelson, Merle Haggard, many more. I can't hear George Jones' "He Stopped Lovin' Her Today" without tearing up. Just the way I tear up over the Act 2 finale of "Otello". What would life be without, for instance, the old Fats Waller records? The Capitol Sinatras? Or, for that matter, all those 90-minutes-or-less old Warner Bros. movies from the '30s? Sometimes you just want Kris Kristofferson doing "Me & Bobby McGee".
Much of what we now call "classical music" was the "pop culture" of its day. I believe it was Arthur Fiedler who once observed, "There are only two kinds of music - good music and bad music". Maybe you can do a short talk about some of the "popular" tunes that were "stolen" (or borrowed) from the "classics" - if you haven't done so already. That also begs the question, are works by Schoenberg, Korngold, Gershwin, Waxman, Williams, Bernstein, etc. "Classical" music? LOL. P.S. I have Perry Mason on in the background as I'm writing this.
I think Classical is a big tent, so I'd say yes. CPO has issued The Belle of New York by Gustave Kerker as a Classical release, and it was an 1897 musical comedy. (Lt. Tragg is my favorite Mason character along with Della.)
@@bbailey7818 I've been watching Perry Mason since its first run on TV from 1957 - 1966. I advise any fan to get the full series on DVD. It's worth the price to see the episodes without the many annoying cuts and deletions that mar the syndicated reruns.
Good point! I used to be just like that and judgmental, but I have changed now and enjoy it better as much as enjoying other genres of music and some 1970s,80s and 90s pop and Rock music! I still have to work on myself to be less grumpy
Great talk Uncle Dave! I agree 100%. Grew to love EDM from the clubs but never really analyzing why, I was just having a similar conversation with my little cousin who is down in LA waiting tables and trying to be a DJ, EDM tracks are basically like those massive late-French-baroque chaconnesa that I adore but in 4/4 instead of 3/4, 16-beat chunks instead of 12 of elaboration over a harmonic pattern stretching over 7, 8, 9 minutes to the same hypnotic effect. There is as much artistry in that essentially throwaway stuff as anything the Rameauistes churned out back then.
Thank you for this, the spirit of this is very much needed especially to combat elitism in the classical music spaces. One note on a specific timbre of the criticism: the framing of certain pop culture elements as "junk food". Thank you for pushing back on this. Yes, much of it has little musical virtue, but much of it does not, and possesses just as much of it as classical music. The problem is, classical music people often don't apply the same lens to, say, a hip-hop beat, thinking about the musical language and craft involved in making it - they are oversensitive to the relative prominence of rhythm, and they think that this proximity to contemporary dance music makes it "lesser". Beyond the fact that they are chauvinists, they fail to remember that dance or folk music has a long history as an inspiration for, or direct component of, "serious" music - Haydn, Dvorak, Bartok would certainly agree. Listen to what J Dilla does with the fabric of time and space, you will find a great amount of musical ground being broken.
Good points, and I would add that fans of popular music often look for the wrong things in classical music and dismiss it hastily as not for them when their expectations are disappointed
I mostly agree, but there's also plenty of snobbery within each genre. In college, my punk friends looked down on my 'Saturday Night Fever' soundtrack, and my college piano prof cringed at my enjoyment of Johann Strauss Jr operettas.
Thanks. As a music writer who wanted to open minds and rarely slammed anyone outright, this is a great point to remind people up. The other point that always raises my ire is where the comments to a 'classic rock' song often slam the music of today as opposed to when people really played (when the listener was yount). So basically these folks have become their parents who never understood the Beatles, the Stones, or lound music in general. Not a zero sum game! An important mantra for all.
I recommend to anyone the novella Tonio Kröger by Thomas Mann, it's got great thought about how it may be better to enjoy popular stuff and the world that to be the biggest snob of high culture. Beautiful. Masterful as everyrhing by Thomas Mann.
Many people treat classical music similarly to easy listening music. They use it as background music, playing it at very low volume. You can't appreciate Mahler and Shostakovich played at that level.
My guilty pleasure is watching reruns of the Andy Griffith Show… great rant Mr. Hurwitz… I too am guilty of sniveling at the uncultured masses, while I listen to Madonna’s Like a Virgin… thanks for bringing me back to earth. I’m going now to listen to AC/DC Back in Black… rock on!
I bring in the Andy Griffith episode "A Feud Is a Feud" whenever I teach Romeo and Juliet. After all, the episode is a comic, nonviolent subversion of the play that reminds us that tragedy isn't the only possible outcome in life.
LOL 😂😂 Oh Dave, you are priceless! Thank you for giving us permission to do stuff - or rather, for opening our eyes to see that we already 'have' permission. We - or should I say "I" - make all these rules for ourselves ... 🙄 I first heard Finlandia through my grandfather's radio, at the age of 4, but I discovered the Brandenburgs through The Nice, and I discovered Pictures at an Exhibition through ELP, and yet I still have this deeply ingrained sense that the classics are superior to pop in the same way that Shakespeare is superior to The Beano. I agree with you that there are no grounds at all for me to 'feel' superior but, surely, most classical music 'is' superior to pop? Come to think of it, you never said it wasn't! Whatever, thank you for a greatly enjoyable talk.
I was waiting for you to whip out some Twinkies, but the shelf life comparison was great! A recurring issue as I see it is that many people are intimidated by classical music and don’t think they’re capable of appreciating it, which, as I try to explain to them, couldn’t be further from the truth.
Agree about classical music may be intimidating to some. An analogy for me is people beginning to try wine and who are intimidated by it. So much out there, where do I start, will I like it? Just try some.
My first records in 1960 (vinyl LP, of course) were Tchaikovsky and Beethoven concertos (2 records) with Milstein and Rachmaninoff Concerto #1 coupled with Strauss Burlseque with Janis and Reiner, bought at RANDOM by my parents when they bought one of those large console stereos, the sound stunning to my completely blank, fresh mind. I remember listening to late night radio and found Beethoven #5 by accident while DXing AM lo-fi radio on my very small Bakelit (registered trademark) radio. How I wish I still had that tube radio. The memories bring me to tears. Classical music has been the center of my life since 5th grade. I took viola lessons and wanted to play orchestras conducted by Bernstein. I was and still am so naïve. As I age out of the human race I had a come-to-Jesus discussion with myself that my enthusiasm outweighed my talent by many tons. Too little, too late.
I love this video. I hate the idea of a guilty pleasure. Pleasure is pleasure and unless it involves actual immorality (defined as hurting others), one should have no guilt about it. I grew up on classical music but was introduced to the wonderful worlds of jazz and pop and rock once I got exposed to popular culture from school friends (I still remember my wonder at hearing the then newly released “Let It Be” in fifth grade). Ever since then I have been keen to expose myself to any sort of music that any group of people find worthy, whether it be rap, Balinese gamelan, Taylor Swift or the Second Viennese School (the last of these still being the hardest for me to digest). And if you’re open to all of it, your life will be immensely enriched and you won’t be spending time fretting about what other people think of your tastes.
I never listened to classical as a kid. My parents were not necessarily interested in music at all, so we rarely got to hear it, but luckily I had a very adept teacher who introduced us to the world of classical. As a teen I started to listen to pop music along with my comrades, and later at college it was jazz and grunge. Why I have no idea except that's what everybody else listened to maybe? Only now in my 50s do I feel well aquainted with most types of music and I am finally able to just enjoy what ever tickles my fancy.
I grew up in a VERY non-classical music environment. But I found Beethoven and Bach on my own and quite by "accident"---doors come along on their own in life. Either we're intrigued and open the door or we move on to another door. And what do you know? I quickly developed a passion for it and become a classical musician and music teacher. My parents and school teachers had zero to do with it. Oh, yes, since I was in a non-classical environment, I also grew up with constant radios playing all the latest pop music. And I learned that there's room for both. Dave, you said it with, "It's all parts of our lives."
😂😂😂😂I confess I am a classical instant junk listener, 5- 10 minutes, then another thing. I love radio programs where theymix everything (Folk,Pop, classical music, jazz, hip hop etc.). Sometimes with stories. Maybe at some day there will be concert with Brahms and lets say Bartok and then you have taraf de haidoks, a Romani brass band. It can't be mixed enough. And it is evolving. You can see a lot of artists who are not only interested in their own fach.
Great video. One can enjoy Mahler, Bruckner, Napoli playing Italian Calcio Championship, Ripley's Believe it or Not, NBA Finals, etc. Absolutely no problem with this! (Almost) everything has a right place and a right time to be enjoyed.
Appreciate this video, Dave. You echo many things I've been saying for ages. In particular I enjoyed your commentary on how even the "cheapest" of products often have dozens of brilliant minds investing immense time and effort and money into perfecting and releasing them for an audience. The same is very much true of pop music. Anyone who thinks pop music is ruled by talentless hacks are completely ignorant of the modern art of production as well as the craft that goes into making a great pop song. There's a reason whyin that most crowded and competitive field there's only a handful of names, like Max Martin, that are able to consistently write successful songs; and it's not because it's something easy to do that requires no creativity or effort. One thing I will push back only slightly on is that I do worry somewhat about the prevalence of "instant gratification" culture/media. There are many studies out there that show that learning to delay gratification by essentially overriding our impulses is good for us. Discipline and thinking/planning long-term is a crucial life-skill when it comes to everything from health to finances. I do agree there's room for instant gratification media (and everything else), but it's the old "everything in moderation" wisdom. Maybe don't ONLY eat junk food, don't ONLY scroll through TikTok on your phone, maybe don't ONLY listen to the Top 40, don't ONLY read schlocky genre fiction, don't ONLY watch Summer blockbusters... you get the picture. I don't think anyone should torture themselves when it comes to media, but maybe step out of your comfort zone and try new and different and even difficult things once in a while. It's good for personal growth.
Up to the XX century popular music and "serious" music were both part of a continuum. Highly regarded composers borrowed tunes from popular music without remorse of any kind, and popular musicians with good ears learned and applied things from the "serious" musical world
YES! As someone who loves classical music, but also equally loves Rap and Hip Hop, I believe they can coexist peacefully, and no genre is inherently better or more worthwhile than the other. It's all music at the end of the day.
I don't consider myself a music snob - my favorite genres are classical and jazz, but I also like classic rock - but I can't stand rap/hip-hop. It seems to me relentlessly evil and ugly, glorifying crime and conspicuous consumption, and the fact that many of its major practitioners have fallen victim to the same "thug" lifestyle their music celebrates just underscores how morally illegitimate it is as a form. Or maybe it's just a generation gap (I'm 70).
@mgconlan kindly - you should try to look at it 1) as a separate musical genre worthy of consideration, and 2) consider the context of the lyrical content of the music, which is arising out of great poverty 99% of the time. Don’t necessarily apply a lower standard for music as a result of these considerations- simply incorporate these into your understanding. Try to listen to J Dilla, Madlib, Pete Rock, A tribe Called Quest, Mos Def, Lil Wayne (note the timbre and fluidity) Nas, future, playboi carti, in that order.
@@mgconlan surely you’ve never read a book or seen a film with violent depictions of crime and “evil” before right? I’m sure you have but I doubt your in an uproar about any of those, makes me wonder why
David, I have a personal take on the subject. My local Classical station is useless to me on Sunday nights. Well, the weekend programming in general. But on Sunday nights they give me 2 hours of organ music followed by 3 hours of bluegrass. So I listen to the “Rock” oldies channel instead. They play quite a bit of what I consider junk. But it amazes me how much of it is well composed and produced. I don’t mean to knock bluegrass, but c’mon! And 2 hours of organ? Really? The world of Pop and Rock music is satisfying too. I love.Rock/Jazz too, like Santana and McLaughlin, for example. Does anything beat the Beatles though? I don’t think so!
The corrollary musical snootery I see repeated ad infinitum among old fossils my age is "music back in my day was better than this crap nowadays," or variations thereof, wherein digs are also taken at the younger generations for all sorts of perceived ills and slights, and is usually just a template to engage in passive-aggressive forms of politically regressive complaining, dogwhistling sexism, racism and the like. Some of the jazz being made today, by young people around the world, is some of the best music I've ever heard, but things like that get conveniently ignored, mainly because the complainers haven't bothered to venture outside the bubble of listening only to the same music they did when they were 15 years old in the 1970s.
One of the best things I heard about music was an answer to "What year was the best for music?" This year, because we have the entire back catalogue and all the new music being created this year. Even within genres this is true - and there's people taking things in new directions as well. I won't like some of it, but the idea that people are doing it is exciting. The biggest problem is there's not enough time to experience it all, and finding it is difficult
I've enjoyed classical music starting in my teens and never thought of it as "head" music. I just loved it. I never analyzed the Eroica, I just enjoyed the hell out of it. Sure, out of curiosity, I'd read the jacket notes and analyses of the structure of a symphony but rarely thought of it when actually listening. Now, most classical works have been market-tested over several centuries or so. The quality, the "secret miracle ingredient" is built in. I think Wynton Marsalis said something about pop music being candy, which is fun, but real food, nourishment, is in the classics. Not merely "good for you" but delicious. Michelin three star vs. McDonald's. P.S. I enjoy CW a lot, tooling around town or enjoying the summer weather, Waylon, Willie, the Lukes, McGraw, etc.I often think there's no way I could come up with those cool lyrics or tunes. Nostalgia rock is fun too (Beach Boys!) But when I sit down for serious listening, 90% is classical. Including opera which was the pop entertainment of its day, even Wagner. I don't look down on anyone else. But I do feel sorry that they will never know the engrossing joy of Trovatore, Tristan, Nozze di Figaro , or HMS Pinafore (all masterpieces!) Love those Perry Mason reruns, Cannon, Mannix, Matlock! Can't stand idiotic 60s and 70s sitcoms. Now please pass the Cheez-Its. I believe Mega Goldfish is about to see a spike in sales.
@@cobymela I enjoy Doritos, as well as pastries. Happily, both Mahler and I were/are gluten tolerant. I'll take a good cream cheese Danish over a bag of Doritos anytime. 😄
Hi dave really enjoying this video as a youngster of about 12 years started enjoying all kinds of music the first lp i purchased was Beethoven violin concerto and have loved it ever since they listened to a popular female singer Petula Clark and enjoy her recordings all my lifetime whatever makes our lives more tolerable is surely what its all about so lets not be too snobbish about it
Great video. A question: how do you reconcile the notion that "everyone likes what they like" with the fact that musical taste can (maybe should?) be educated? Wouldn't that get in the way of the spontaneity of a person's approach to art?
Hahaha. Hey Dave, I like junk food too. It’s funny how you happened to have all those snacks just lying around. I used to look down on any type of music other than classical. But studying ethnomusicology showed me worlds of music different to our beloved classics. All with qualities slightly different from what we are used to but no less beautiful and no less musical. I think pop music is also just different but no less fun and no less musical. But the endless procession of snacks coming one after the other made me laugh. 😂
Op mijn cd-schappen staan cd's van Stravinsky naast cd's van Horace Silver naast cd's van Steely Dan. Ik vergelijk muziek vaak met atletiek. Binnen de atletiek heb je verschillende disciplines; je hebt de loopnummers, de werpnummers, de springnummers... misschien hou je het meest van de loopnummers maar dit wil niet zeggen dat de andere disciplines binnen de atletiek minderwaardig zouden zijn.
I got hooked on Classical music when my mother took me to a concert playing Mahler's 1st Symphony. I was enthralled by the Percussionists at the back of the Orchestra and joined up with the California Youth Symphony Orchestra and learned my trade as a Timpanist
It would be interesting to know if great Maestros listen to rock / metal/ etc, and if so, what. Previn, for one, has recorded jazz, as has Gulda. A sad story: decades ago I met a (classically trained) counter-tenor named Klaus Nomi at a social gathering. Discussing music, he told me that he had opted out of the classical world and into the pop/ rock repertoire, singing the same or similar music, adapted to the rock gendre. He very kindly offered to send me an LP of his work. Months later I received a package containing an LP ("Simple Man") and a sad obituary note from the sender apprising me of of Mr Nomi's recent death. Of course I still have that LP!
Why is this episode not filed as a Random Review from the Overflow Room? “I regard Goldfish Crackers as one of the highest products of Western Civilization!” Your junk food collection must take up at least a shelf or two.
Speaking of Bruckner, I fell in love with his music by accident. I was considering a used copy of Jonas Nordwall's Space Organ (Star Wars, etc. on a pizzeria theater organ) on eBay, and the seller had a "buy 2 records, get free shipping" deal. The price for the Klemperer/Vienna Symphony version of Bruckner's 4th was less that the shipping charge, making it better than free under the circumstances. And you know what? I really enjoy both albums. I even bought some more Bruckner symphonies. I also really enjoy both my Fiedler/Boston Pops cover of Beatles music and my box set of Louis Vierne organ symphonies. And I feel no guilt about any of this.
Reportedly, my parents kept me quiet when I was a baby by playing orchestral Tchaikovsky on a repeater record player... To this day, I can listen to a powerful Mahler-2 and then switch over to Black Sabbath (I wish the recordings were better...) -- or the blues (Stormy Monday?) -- or... anything where the watchword is, "play your heart out; your life depends on it". A simple tune played with passion, urgency, finality, soul, etc, moves me.
The usual remark about popular music snobs disapprove is “That’s NOT Music!”-hmm… has melody, rhythm ( lots of rhythm! -and you can dance to it). If it’s not Music, what is it then? Anyway, it’s fun, it’s easily accessible, anybody can enjoy it anytime any place and much of it is Art and not just entertainment. Who doesn’t want to be entertained anyway?
A large bowl of pork rinds slathered in valentina hot sauce often accompanies my hour of active and focused listening (encouraged by Dave). I'm positive that that practice is far healthier for me personally than jogging in the street in dolphin shorts. It's translated into a richer enjoyment and appreciation of some popular music recordings too.
When I'm at the symphony, I like to eat Whoppers during the quietest passages. I've always wondered what classical conductors listen to in their private lives? Is classical so much their job that they only listen when required spending the rest of the time listening to hardcore 90's thrash or the latest albums on the Hip-Hop charts?
I was hooked when I was 4! Part of it was my church....an Eastern Rite church...in which Bortiniovsky, Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninoff from that age onward! I never bought into the Rock n Roll culture, and sock hops in a little later life.....the comparison to junk food is a little fatuous....but you must admit...sheisenmusik es sheisnemusik.......
Sometimes you just never know. For a few days our new tech. from Puerto Rico listened to a rapper named Bad Bunny and others on our van`s speakers while he was driving and I was showing him the ropes (wasn`t my cup of tea nor floated my boat, but he was the driver). A few days later as I entered the shop, he was working on some equipment while listening to a Mozart piano concerto from his Spotify account. One can be intrigued with numerous genres depending on one’s mood.
Case in point - My cat likes to sleep with me. But he also likes to play mummy and daddy with other cats... My father, a WW2 vet and federal politician, was a long time classical music 'aficionado", to the point where he was the Australian importer and distributor of brands like Monitor Audio, Stanton, Memorex, Cybernet etc. But one of his favorite times was listening to Simon and Garfunkel in Central Park NY in 1981. Blew him away. There is a lot of similarity between Simon and Garfunkel and many classical pieces... My small collection has classical works from Beethoven (Munch, Karajan), Tchaikovsky (Muti, Munch) with Pink Floyd, Hendrix, Beatles, Amy Whitehouse, Bo Diddley and so on. I like what I like without feeling I have to be constrained to any genre or period. My cat on the other hand will only stick around when I play classical music. I think that's why he sleeps with me...
Nothing wrong with pop culture in its place. The problem is that we're drowning in it. You want to leave room for more satisfying and nutritious fare. No, the typical American cultural diet is not fine just as it is, but it is true that moralizing about music (or food) is likely to be counter productive.
Yes, for me all of music is connected. I was listening to Tears for Fears' "Everybody Wants to Rule the World" the other day and it dawned on me that harmonically the verses sounds like they could have been inspired by Mahler's 9th 1st movement (distilled to simple repeated 'Lebwhol' sigh throughout). I'm not saying Roland Orzabal had this inspiration but it's lovely to imagine these connections between an incredibly complex piece of music and this compact but also beautiful and moving little pop song that most people in my generation would be familiar with.
Speaking of harmless enjoyment of the pleasures of life, any chance of making a video of the most famous classical gaffs left in classical recordings. (maybe it could be called " why did they leave that in" or " how did no one notice?") The funniest live performance gaff I've witnessed was a highly noted Liszt specialist (Who's recorded Liszt's complete piano works) who jumped into another concerto (I couldn't identify which ) in the last 30-40 seconds of the finale of the Liszt piano concerto #1. He and conductor eventually got in synch again for the last bar. It is amazing the sins that can be hidden by a really long trill.
Wow, way to go Dave! You Rock). This elitist drivel regards to music has always been out there. It even exists to create divisions within the classical genre itself. I cant even count the number of times someone has disparaged my preference for Rossini, or Respighi over Mahler. That only serious spiritual, philosophical whatever has real great merit. I loved classical music, was drawn in by the sounds, the fun and drama as a 13 year old. Who still loves rock, folk and much else. I agree with Duke Ellington, if it sounds good, IT IS good. Paul
I was a into popular radio as a young kid, a bit of a metalhead as a teenager, and that changed when Metallica had their San Francisco Orchestra concert S&M in the late 1990s. I was already into some film scores, branched out: found Nino Rota, found his classical output and bought a bunch of generic classical music for most of the next 20 years, with only the occasional off the beaten path discovery. Post-2010, got into a lot of k-pop, j-pop and Japanese music just generally. In the last few years however I have found how much killer stuff there is in classical music from composers few have ever heard of, partly because I am a collector of CDs and they are often pretty cheap right now! It is blowing my mind. I can understand why when you have the likes of Schnittke, Casella, Kabalevsky, Tveitt, Scharwenka, John Field, Poulenc or Kapustin, for instance, classical music fans may be elitist. You could binge out on all the classical music and you would never run out of quality stuff to listen to! EDIT: I also quite like the music of Brett Dean. He deserves mention.
I have almost no taste for most popular styles. I got my younger brother a Best of Bob Dylan album for his birthday one year and he ended up a huge fan, but for me even the good stuff I can take it or leave it. There are a few select things I enjoy outside of Classical, but I've long since stopped pretending that me and Jazz are ever gonna be real, or that I'm going out of my way for a classic rock album someone recommends. I simply cannot sustain interest in it. I like Classical Music and I've made my peace with that--and I have had to, because it freezes me out of a lot of conversations. I avoid music discussions now like the plague. Someone inevitably brings up Queen. People think I haven't heard Queen even though you can't step into any place of retail without hearing it. I'll save a little bit of Michael Jackson (older), most of Johnny Cash, some of The Beatles, a great big chunk of folk music (Vasen, for starters), a few other odds and ends, but generally speaking I'm preferring Baroque organ and trumpet and Romantic symphonic music. There just isn't anything better to my ears.
David, I agree with you completely! Once high and low culture existed side by side to a greater degree. Now so-called serious music and popular music (ie contemporary folk music) have become separated. One musician who went against this was Leonard Bernstein who often had an open-minded but quality-oriented attitude. Imagine if the different genres could inspire each other instead! The Beatles were well on their way…
I thought I was the only person who remembered "Dusty's Trail;" it ran for one season (1973-74), and starred Bob Denver and Forrest Tucker. Speaking of marketing, you should start your own line of junk food to enjoy while listening to classical music.
Oh, yeah, I was that once, which I think was just me overcompensating. I kinda liked classical as a kid, much I believe through liking orchestral film scores, but I couldn't admit to it even to myself, and certainly not publically or I'd have been absolutely bullied for it by my peers - well, worse than I already was. Certainly didn't need to give more ammo with something "weird" and end up looking like even more of a weirdo for liking something I shouldn't have. So once I got out of that social circle and got to higher education where that kind of childishness pretty much dropped off, I started to feel a lot more free in just liking what I like and not making excuses for it. Unfortunately, when I started to buy my own records and really got into classical, it kind of had the adverse effect where I really started to look down on "lesser" artforms as well (animation was another I only later got back to appreciating again). But at some point as I was getting older I figured that this was pretty dumb and that I did in fact like quite a lot of this other stuff too, so I dropped that snobbery and just inducted my other likes to carry the same value. Certainly there are still musical genres that I just don't get or care for, but I wouldn't try to discourage people from enjoying them, either. Thankfully, though, I don't think I've ever tried to push people into liking what I like or vice versa, so at least there's that.
I have loved classical music since I was a teenager, but I also love Abba, Carpenters, Spice Girls, Beatles, Neil Sedaka, The Kinks, Carole King, Sinatra....
Coming from Gen X that grew up on Bugs Bunny, I think there was always this sense of classical music just being another communal experience of my generation - among the many pop music eras we lived through- disco, 80s pop, classic rock, rap, and grunge. I'm so grateful to have all of the wonderful communal memories and nostalgia that binds us all together in the love of all these various styles. I do feel a bit sad for the younger generation in that I'm not sure they'll ever experience that same enchantment and connection with this pop music era that we did? While Taylor Swift, Beyonce, and perhaps some country stars still have that sort of world-wide appeal- I think even they are getting older. We had so many pop legends: Michael, Prince, Madonna, Whitney, Elton, George Michael, Stevie, etc. Or maybe I'm just getting old and unaware of the younger generation's stars? lol.
I enjoy Gilligan's Island without shame, and I suspect that Dvořák would as well. My sideways participation in the youth-led vinyl resurgence - based on thrift-store treasure hunting in search of old Nonesuch albums - has brought me to a new appreciation of the actual quality displayed in that genre I loved to hate: mood music.
That is so true 😂 I began with beethoven but I totally enjoy modern stuff. Also know classical music composer nowadays who enjoys dancing to cardi B. No issue! But let's be honest that's a 2-way street. When I mention classical music as a genre, people look at me funny too - like what's wrong with you 😂
Yeah I don’t do classical music, I hope, out of any kind of snobbery- there’s a personal history to my involvement in it that’d take too long to relate. I just know that a lot of recent popular stuff isn’t aimed at me and that’s ok. It’s for younger people mostly. But of course I enjoy the pop music that was and is aimed at me and I hear it all the time mostly in social settings when I’m out and about. I have no idea what Taylor Swift actually sounds like but that’s not out of snobbery it’s just it’s not aimed at me! And I don’t think that matters. But, plainly I’m not disagreeing with you Dave
I like to say I'm musically promiscuous-- it's cheaper than the other kind. :) . I love classical music and jazz, but also a good deal of pop, folk, blues,country & r&b. Just depends on mood, time, etc. And I agree there's so much out there that's more accessible than ever. But Auntie Mame's comment: 'Life is a banquet and most people are starving to death'f still applies. And maybe more now than ever unfortunately.
Funnily enough, it is much easier for people to get into classical music now BECAUSE of social media. LPs cost a fortune, CDs cost a bit less, but a kid in his room can get instant access to basically all of classical music for free. So I’m not sure how its social media that is driving people away from classical music.(?)
Great rant. And maybe the bigger point is we should stop dividing everything up in to categories and silos. As Leonard Bernstein said, "There are only two types of music- good music and everything else". I have always loved and worshipped Bach, Mozart, Miles Davis, Stravinsky, Bartok, The Beatles, Sinatra, Aaron Copland, Joni Mitchell, Debussy, Ravel, Bill Evans, Stevie Wonder, Duke Ellington, Prince and the Beach Boys. (Dave- sit down and give us a serious critical analysis of 'God Only Knows'. Treat it as a 'classical' piece of music. I would be fascinated to hear what you have to say.) I also occasionally enjoy The Police, Isaac Albeniz, Vaughan Williams, Olivier Messiaen (some, anyway), Joao Gilberto, Beck, Wayne Shorter, Marvin Gaye and Fleetwood Mac. It sounds like I'm dividing things into A and B categories, and maybe so, but that's not really how I listen. It's ALL music, folks. Just keep an open mind and listen!
to be honest the more I think about it the more I realize that comparing popular music to "junk food" is incredibly harmful not to knock the analogy you're using here, of course, it's a great analogy and extremely well-done, but in a broader sense, comparing something to junk food implies that it's bad for you, that it's not a good idea to consume it in massive quantities, and that it cannot be a substitute for a proper meal. these are all things that I absolutely don't think can be unilaterally applied to pop music. sure, there's a heaping helping of flavorless empty calories flowing from the radio all the time (and there always has been), but just because it can appeal to people OTHER than the turbo-nerds doesn't mean it can't be incredibly fulfilling. calling it "junk food" almost implies that it _cannot_ do that, or that it _shouldn't_ do that, and in my experience that couldn't be more false immediate gratification is a valid way to enjoy music! something being immediately appealing is often the gold standard of music. what really matters (at least to me) is if that immediacy can be transferred into more enjoyment with a deeper look and don't get me wrong, I'm down for music that makes you put in some work, but discounting music that ISN'T requiring you to become a mental Olympic gymnast ignores the fact that it can still be incredibly artistically satisfying
“Just because I look out of this window and enjoy the view of the ocean doesn’t mean I can’t look out of that window and enjoy the view of the mountains.” - Charles Ives
"Doritos and Mahler"??? ...You're marvelous.
My neighbor must think there's something wrong with me. While listening to music in the backyard last week, I went from Bach's Brandenburg Concerto #1 to "The Kinks Are the Village Green Preservation Society".
Nothing wrong with that!
Both are great.
I do the same, and then I follow it with ABBA’s ‘The Winner Takes It All’ or any other of their glorious mini-dramas OR their bouncy, uplifting stuff. It’s all good!
Yes! I listen to pop stations or CDs, mostly CW, in the car but at home it's mostly classics.
Short drives, running errands, I don't like hearing bits and pieces of classical works.
Both excellent choices.
I don't have anything against popular culture. I just don't have time for it. Stacks & stacks of marvellous classical material...more than one lifetime required!
Wonderful video, Dave. Your brilliance, humor, and easy-going humanity are on full display, and are a few of the reasons I'm addicted to your channel.
On this topic, one of the best things I ever saw on the Internet was a random obnoxious Facebookite lamenting the state of popular music etc etc., in which they stated that they only listen to "the classics," and included among that category "Bach's 4th." Bach's 4th symphony? Well, if you can find a recording of it I'd love to hear it too! Hell, if you can find the three that came before that, that would be even more remarkable!
probably meant to say Brandenburg? 😮
Sounds like satire.😏 It would actually make a good satirical statement…
I agree with LOT of this. I am Admin of a Facebook Metal Group and notice a parallel with that community too.
I am a huge fan of both Classical AND Metal - the two cultures share an elitism but the key difference is that Classical sees itself as "high brow/culture" and looks upon Popular Music as being "low brow/culture".
Whereas the Metal scene sees itself as counter-cultural and anti-mainstream, and views mainstream "Popular Music" as being beneath it - trash for the masses.
Of course the overarching irony is that the "Metal Elitists" would be subject to the exact same snobbery and elitism from "Classical Elitists" because Metal is technically "Popular Music".
In the end - it's a false hierarchy - these artforms are NOT in competition, they are in different lanes. Each form of music is simply suited for a different "mode" of listening. Instant gratification and casual enjoyment are both very VALID.
We don't need to trash it in order to attract Classical listeners - all we should do is emphasize that there is music out there that takes a bit more time and effort to appreciate but offers incredible rewards for that extra investment of time and effort.
So true. And even within metal there's people who try to add hierarchy - the 'true kvlt Black Metal' people come to mind.
Metal is unpopular popular music. There's plenty of crossover between metalheads & jazzers, I think; both fan bases revere the old guys, whether it's Miles or Ozzy, both are waiting for the killer solo, both have a cut-off point: 'It was jazz/metal up until (insert subgenre name) & after that it was all this modern shit. That's not even metal/jazz!' And if you're a Meshuggah fan you listen to metal & jazz simultaneously.
Excellent points!
Kiss and Xenakis are both enjoyable
@@SO-ym3zs agreed. When I was an impressionable youth I admit I engaged in a little of it, but now I don't care (aside from certain far-right unpleasantness).
One of the funnier things is that musicians themselves tend to have very wide ranging tastes, and don't care about genre much, whereas their fans will try and be exclusive, and get really upset if there's some divergence from the perceived genre...
True story. Back in the day of record stores, I was looking through the bins and on the other side was the rock section, with three teens looking through those bins. One of the teens rounded the end of the display and the "V" section was there. He shouted to the other two. "Hey, look. Vivalci. This guy is awesome."
Antonico Vivalci?
New series of videos: Music and Food Pairings
Nearly every Midsummer around St. John's Day, I host a Die Meistersinger party. The whole opera with long intermissions. Food: German Potato salad, bratwurst, strudel, German chocolate cake, and lots of pilsener and Heineken. And/or Gewurztraminer.
@@bbailey7818 Oh, that sounds wunderbar. And only somewhat tangentially, the times I’ve best enjoyed opera have been with friends at home or the like, taking it in freely socially.
I just picked up a bar of mint dark chocolate, which I hope can act as both a prep for the Alpine Symphony and a balance for the edginess of Beethoven's Fifth.
I "got into" classical music as a kid through movie scores. Luckily kids today can still do the same.
Me too! The scores by John Williams and Ennio Morricone.
Miklos Rosza, Ben Hur. I was seven.
Few producers these days want tunesy film scores. They want pounding, driving scores because it attracts those who want to be excited, not those who like music. I don't have much faith for the future of film music, or even the current state. The youth could always tap into the oldies, but that is not happening.
They sure can if they know they don't have to stop there. The Miyazaki movies have beautiful scores, and the soundtracks are very popular appealing to all ages. The OST for Godzilla Minus One is terrific and dramatic. Someone could make a list of "if you liked this then try..." except it wouldn't have any reach. : (
Not if it's composed by the literal cult/farm.of Hans Zimmer. Even movie music is getting dumber. Hurwitz is just trying to justify being fat with other kinds of behavior lacking delayed gratification.
Back when I was working as a classical producer at a public-radio station, our program director thought it would be interesting to go around the room and ask each of us, "What is something about you that would surprise the rest of us?" I said I love country music. Not all of it, naturally. But the good stuff. Patsy Cline, Dolly Parton, Willie Nelson, Merle Haggard, many more. I can't hear George Jones' "He Stopped Lovin' Her Today" without tearing up. Just the way I tear up over the Act 2 finale of "Otello". What would life be without, for instance, the old Fats Waller records? The Capitol Sinatras? Or, for that matter, all those 90-minutes-or-less old Warner Bros. movies from the '30s? Sometimes you just want Kris Kristofferson doing "Me & Bobby McGee".
Thank you very much, Dave. I could never have made it into the world of classical music without my love and appreciation for "popular" music
What a joy this video is.
Much of what we now call "classical music" was the "pop culture" of its day. I believe it was Arthur Fiedler who once observed, "There are only two kinds of music - good music and bad music". Maybe you can do a short talk about some of the "popular" tunes that were "stolen" (or borrowed) from the "classics" - if you haven't done so already. That also begs the question, are works by Schoenberg, Korngold, Gershwin, Waxman, Williams, Bernstein, etc. "Classical" music? LOL.
P.S. I have Perry Mason on in the background as I'm writing this.
I think Classical is a big tent, so I'd say yes. CPO has issued The Belle of New York by Gustave Kerker as a Classical release, and it was an 1897 musical comedy.
(Lt. Tragg is my favorite Mason character along with Della.)
@@bbailey7818 I've been watching Perry Mason since its first run on TV from 1957 - 1966. I advise any fan to get the full series on DVD. It's worth the price to see the episodes without the many annoying cuts and deletions that mar the syndicated reruns.
I discovered Classical Music and The Beach Boys at the same time, in my late teens. At 63, I still love both.
Pet Sounds is an absolute masterpiece.
Of course, It all depends on quality. There is good and bad classical music and good and bad pop music.
Good point! I used to be just like that and judgmental, but I have changed now and enjoy it better as much as enjoying other genres of music and some 1970s,80s and 90s pop and Rock music! I still have to work on myself to be less grumpy
Love your work Dave, and this episode particularly! HOWEVER, please for the love of God, maaaybe go a little bit easier on the junk food? 😂
Great talk Uncle Dave! I agree 100%. Grew to love EDM from the clubs but never really analyzing why, I was just having a similar conversation with my little cousin who is down in LA waiting tables and trying to be a DJ, EDM tracks are basically like those massive late-French-baroque chaconnesa that I adore but in 4/4 instead of 3/4, 16-beat chunks instead of 12 of elaboration over a harmonic pattern stretching over 7, 8, 9 minutes to the same hypnotic effect. There is as much artistry in that essentially throwaway stuff as anything the Rameauistes churned out back then.
Thank you for this, the spirit of this is very much needed especially to combat elitism in the classical music spaces. One note on a specific timbre of the criticism: the framing of certain pop culture elements as "junk food". Thank you for pushing back on this. Yes, much of it has little musical virtue, but much of it does not, and possesses just as much of it as classical music. The problem is, classical music people often don't apply the same lens to, say, a hip-hop beat, thinking about the musical language and craft involved in making it - they are oversensitive to the relative prominence of rhythm, and they think that this proximity to contemporary dance music makes it "lesser". Beyond the fact that they are chauvinists, they fail to remember that dance or folk music has a long history as an inspiration for, or direct component of, "serious" music - Haydn, Dvorak, Bartok would certainly agree. Listen to what J Dilla does with the fabric of time and space, you will find a great amount of musical ground being broken.
Good points, and I would add that fans of popular music often look for the wrong things in classical music and dismiss it hastily as not for them when their expectations are disappointed
True!
I mostly agree, but there's also plenty of snobbery within each genre. In college, my punk friends looked down on my 'Saturday Night Fever' soundtrack, and my college piano prof cringed at my enjoyment of Johann Strauss Jr operettas.
Of course, but I'm talking to my crowd.
Thanks. As a music writer who wanted to open minds and rarely slammed anyone outright, this is a great point to remind people up. The other point that always raises my ire is where the comments to a 'classic rock' song often slam the music of today as opposed to when people really played (when the listener was yount). So basically these folks have become their parents who never understood the Beatles, the Stones, or lound music in general. Not a zero sum game! An important mantra for all.
No wonder the cat always hangs around near you 😁
Very well said. And I must try those Mega goldfish!
I recommend to anyone the novella Tonio Kröger by Thomas Mann, it's got great thought about how it may be better to enjoy popular stuff and the world that to be the biggest snob of high culture. Beautiful. Masterful as everyrhing by Thomas Mann.
Yes, it's a wonderful story.
Many people treat classical music similarly to easy listening music. They use it as background music, playing it at very low volume. You can't appreciate Mahler and Shostakovich played at that level.
My guilty pleasure is watching reruns of the Andy Griffith Show… great rant Mr. Hurwitz… I too am guilty of sniveling at the uncultured masses, while I listen to Madonna’s Like a Virgin… thanks for bringing me back to earth. I’m going now to listen to AC/DC Back in Black… rock on!
I bring in the Andy Griffith episode "A Feud Is a Feud" whenever I teach Romeo and Juliet. After all, the episode is a comic, nonviolent subversion of the play that reminds us that tragedy isn't the only possible outcome in life.
LOL 😂😂 Oh Dave, you are priceless! Thank you for giving us permission to do stuff - or rather, for opening our eyes to see that we already 'have' permission. We - or should I say "I" - make all these rules for ourselves ... 🙄
I first heard Finlandia through my grandfather's radio, at the age of 4, but I discovered the Brandenburgs through The Nice, and I discovered Pictures at an Exhibition through ELP, and yet I still have this deeply ingrained sense that the classics are superior to pop in the same way that Shakespeare is superior to The Beano. I agree with you that there are no grounds at all for me to 'feel' superior but, surely, most classical music 'is' superior to pop? Come to think of it, you never said it wasn't! Whatever, thank you for a greatly enjoyable talk.
I was waiting for you to whip out some Twinkies, but the shelf life comparison was great!
A recurring issue as I see it is that many people are intimidated by classical music and don’t think they’re capable of appreciating it, which, as I try to explain to them, couldn’t be further from the truth.
Agree about classical music may be intimidating to some. An analogy for me is people beginning to try wine and who are intimidated by it. So much out there, where do I start, will I like it? Just try some.
My first records in 1960 (vinyl LP, of course) were Tchaikovsky and Beethoven concertos (2 records) with Milstein and Rachmaninoff Concerto #1 coupled with Strauss Burlseque with Janis and Reiner, bought at RANDOM by my parents when they bought one of those large console stereos, the sound stunning to my completely blank, fresh mind. I remember listening to late night radio and found Beethoven #5 by accident while DXing AM lo-fi radio on my very small Bakelit (registered trademark) radio. How I wish I still had that tube radio. The memories bring me to tears. Classical music has been the center of my life since 5th grade. I took viola lessons and wanted to play orchestras conducted by Bernstein. I was and still am so naïve.
As I age out of the human race I had a come-to-Jesus discussion with myself that my enthusiasm outweighed my talent by many tons. Too little, too late.
I love this video. I hate the idea of a guilty pleasure. Pleasure is pleasure and unless it involves actual immorality (defined as hurting others), one should have no guilt about it. I grew up on classical music but was introduced to the wonderful worlds of jazz and pop and rock once I got exposed to popular culture from school friends (I still remember my wonder at hearing the then newly released “Let It Be” in fifth grade). Ever since then I have been keen to expose myself to any sort of music that any group of people find worthy, whether it be rap, Balinese gamelan, Taylor Swift or the Second Viennese School (the last of these still being the hardest for me to digest). And if you’re open to all of it, your life will be immensely enriched and you won’t be spending time fretting about what other people think of your tastes.
You're making me hungry.
I never listened to classical as a kid. My parents were not necessarily interested in music at all, so we rarely got to hear it, but luckily I had a very adept teacher who introduced us to the world of classical. As a teen I started to listen to pop music along with my comrades, and later at college it was jazz and grunge. Why I have no idea except that's what everybody else listened to maybe? Only now in my 50s do I feel well aquainted with most types of music and I am finally able to just enjoy what ever tickles my fancy.
I grew up in a VERY non-classical music environment. But I found Beethoven and Bach on my own and quite by "accident"---doors come along on their own in life. Either we're intrigued and open the door or we move on to another door. And what do you know? I quickly developed a passion for it and become a classical musician and music teacher. My parents and school teachers had zero to do with it. Oh, yes, since I was in a non-classical environment, I also grew up with constant radios playing all the latest pop music. And I learned that there's room for both. Dave, you said it with, "It's all parts of our lives."
I had exactly the same experience and background.
😂😂😂😂I confess I am a classical instant junk listener, 5- 10 minutes, then another thing. I love radio programs where theymix everything (Folk,Pop, classical music, jazz, hip hop etc.). Sometimes with stories. Maybe at some day there will be concert with Brahms and lets say Bartok and then you have taraf de haidoks, a Romani brass band. It can't be mixed enough. And it is evolving. You can see a lot of artists who are not only interested in their own fach.
Great video. One can enjoy Mahler, Bruckner, Napoli playing Italian Calcio Championship, Ripley's Believe it or Not, NBA Finals, etc. Absolutely no problem with this! (Almost) everything has a right place and a right time to be enjoyed.
Appreciate this video, Dave. You echo many things I've been saying for ages. In particular I enjoyed your commentary on how even the "cheapest" of products often have dozens of brilliant minds investing immense time and effort and money into perfecting and releasing them for an audience. The same is very much true of pop music. Anyone who thinks pop music is ruled by talentless hacks are completely ignorant of the modern art of production as well as the craft that goes into making a great pop song. There's a reason whyin that most crowded and competitive field there's only a handful of names, like Max Martin, that are able to consistently write successful songs; and it's not because it's something easy to do that requires no creativity or effort.
One thing I will push back only slightly on is that I do worry somewhat about the prevalence of "instant gratification" culture/media. There are many studies out there that show that learning to delay gratification by essentially overriding our impulses is good for us. Discipline and thinking/planning long-term is a crucial life-skill when it comes to everything from health to finances. I do agree there's room for instant gratification media (and everything else), but it's the old "everything in moderation" wisdom. Maybe don't ONLY eat junk food, don't ONLY scroll through TikTok on your phone, maybe don't ONLY listen to the Top 40, don't ONLY read schlocky genre fiction, don't ONLY watch Summer blockbusters... you get the picture. I don't think anyone should torture themselves when it comes to media, but maybe step out of your comfort zone and try new and different and even difficult things once in a while. It's good for personal growth.
Up to the XX century popular music and "serious" music were both part of a continuum. Highly regarded composers borrowed tunes from popular music without remorse of any kind, and popular musicians with good ears learned and applied things from the "serious" musical world
YES! As someone who loves classical music, but also equally loves Rap and Hip Hop, I believe they can coexist peacefully, and no genre is inherently better or more worthwhile than the other. It's all music at the end of the day.
I don't consider myself a music snob - my favorite genres are classical and jazz, but I also like classic rock - but I can't stand rap/hip-hop. It seems to me relentlessly evil and ugly, glorifying crime and conspicuous consumption, and the fact that many of its major practitioners have fallen victim to the same "thug" lifestyle their music celebrates just underscores how morally illegitimate it is as a form. Or maybe it's just a generation gap (I'm 70).
@mgconlan kindly - you should try to look at it 1) as a separate musical genre worthy of consideration, and 2) consider the context of the lyrical content of the music, which is arising out of great poverty 99% of the time. Don’t necessarily apply a lower standard for music as a result of these considerations- simply incorporate these into your understanding. Try to listen to J Dilla, Madlib, Pete Rock, A tribe Called Quest, Mos Def, Lil Wayne (note the timbre and fluidity) Nas, future, playboi carti, in that order.
@@mgconlan surely you’ve never read a book or seen a film with violent depictions of crime and “evil” before right? I’m sure you have but I doubt your in an uproar about any of those, makes me wonder why
David, I have a personal take on the subject. My local Classical station is useless to me on Sunday nights. Well, the weekend programming in general. But on Sunday nights they give me 2 hours of organ music followed by 3 hours of bluegrass. So I listen to the “Rock” oldies channel instead. They play quite a bit of what I consider junk. But it amazes me how much of it is well composed and produced. I don’t mean to knock bluegrass, but c’mon! And 2 hours of organ? Really? The world of Pop and Rock music is satisfying too. I love.Rock/Jazz too, like Santana and McLaughlin, for example. Does anything beat the Beatles though? I don’t think so!
The corrollary musical snootery I see repeated ad infinitum among old fossils my age is "music back in my day was better than this crap nowadays," or variations thereof, wherein digs are also taken at the younger generations for all sorts of perceived ills and slights, and is usually just a template to engage in passive-aggressive forms of politically regressive complaining, dogwhistling sexism, racism and the like. Some of the jazz being made today, by young people around the world, is some of the best music I've ever heard, but things like that get conveniently ignored, mainly because the complainers haven't bothered to venture outside the bubble of listening only to the same music they did when they were 15 years old in the 1970s.
One of the best things I heard about music was an answer to "What year was the best for music?"
This year, because we have the entire back catalogue and all the new music being created this year.
Even within genres this is true - and there's people taking things in new directions as well. I won't like some of it, but the idea that people are doing it is exciting.
The biggest problem is there's not enough time to experience it all, and finding it is difficult
I don't much care if it's junk food or not, I just wanna eat what tastes good and fills my belly enough for me to take a good nap!
You can really tell someone is into junk food when their yardstick for shelf-life is a Twinkie ;)
I've enjoyed classical music starting in my teens and never thought of it as "head" music. I just loved it. I never analyzed the Eroica, I just enjoyed the hell out of it. Sure, out of curiosity, I'd read the jacket notes and analyses of the structure of a symphony but rarely thought of it when actually listening.
Now, most classical works have been market-tested over several centuries or so. The quality, the "secret miracle ingredient" is built in.
I think Wynton Marsalis said something about pop music being candy, which is fun, but real food, nourishment, is in the classics. Not merely "good for you" but delicious. Michelin three star vs. McDonald's.
P.S. I enjoy CW a lot, tooling around town or enjoying the summer weather, Waylon, Willie, the Lukes, McGraw, etc.I often think there's no way I could come up with those cool lyrics or tunes. Nostalgia rock is fun too (Beach Boys!) But when I sit down for serious listening, 90% is classical. Including opera which was the pop entertainment of its day, even Wagner. I don't look down on anyone else. But I do feel sorry that they will never know the engrossing joy of Trovatore, Tristan, Nozze di Figaro , or HMS Pinafore (all masterpieces!)
Love those Perry Mason reruns, Cannon, Mannix, Matlock! Can't stand idiotic 60s and 70s sitcoms.
Now please pass the Cheez-Its.
I believe Mega Goldfish is about to see a spike in sales.
Doritos and Mahler; how can you argue with that!
Trying it tonight.
Mahler liked his sweets, particularly pastries and other baked goods.
Sorry Mahler, that’s a gluten paved path I cannot follow.
@@cobymela I enjoy Doritos, as well as pastries. Happily, both Mahler and I were/are gluten tolerant. I'll take a good cream cheese Danish over a bag of Doritos anytime. 😄
Hi dave really enjoying this video as a youngster of about 12 years started enjoying all kinds of music the first lp i purchased was Beethoven violin concerto and have loved it ever since they listened to a popular female singer Petula Clark and enjoy her recordings all my lifetime whatever makes our lives more tolerable is surely what its all about so lets not be too snobbish about it
Great video. A question: how do you reconcile the notion that "everyone likes what they like" with the fact that musical taste can (maybe should?) be educated? Wouldn't that get in the way of the spontaneity of a person's approach to art?
Not at all. Ignorance and spontaneity are very different things. It’s perfectly natural to want to know more about the things that we love..
That's beautiful reply. Thank you
Hahaha. Hey Dave, I like junk food too. It’s funny how you happened to have all those snacks just lying around. I used to look down on any type of music other than classical. But studying ethnomusicology showed me worlds of music different to our beloved classics. All with qualities slightly different from what we are used to but no less beautiful and no less musical. I think pop music is also just different but no less fun and no less musical. But the endless procession of snacks coming one after the other made me laugh. 😂
Op mijn cd-schappen staan cd's van Stravinsky naast cd's van Horace Silver naast cd's van Steely Dan. Ik vergelijk muziek vaak met atletiek. Binnen de atletiek heb je verschillende disciplines; je hebt de loopnummers, de werpnummers, de springnummers... misschien hou je het meest van de loopnummers maar dit wil niet zeggen dat de andere disciplines binnen de atletiek minderwaardig zouden zijn.
I am SO on the way to the snack aisle of my local supermarket!
I got hooked on Classical music when my mother took me to a concert playing Mahler's 1st Symphony. I was enthralled by the Percussionists at the back of the Orchestra and joined up with the California Youth Symphony Orchestra and learned my trade as a Timpanist
It would be interesting to know if great Maestros listen to rock / metal/ etc, and if so, what. Previn, for one, has recorded jazz, as has Gulda. A sad story: decades ago I met a (classically trained) counter-tenor named Klaus Nomi at a social gathering. Discussing music, he told me that he had opted out of the classical world and into the pop/ rock repertoire, singing the same or similar music, adapted to the rock gendre. He very kindly offered to send me an LP of his work. Months later I received a package containing an LP ("Simple Man") and a sad obituary note from the sender apprising me of of Mr Nomi's recent death. Of course I still have that LP!
Yay! Go Dave! Great to get an insight as to what's just out of shot in your natural habitat.
Nothing to add to that other than, "Well said. Thanks, Dave!"
Try the mango chile lime Harvest Snaps, very tasty.
Thank you! I love classical music too but never understood why some feel they need to attack things that are popular. Like what you like and enjoy!
Life is indeed one long junket.
Why is this episode not filed as a Random Review from the Overflow Room? “I regard Goldfish Crackers as one of the highest products of Western Civilization!” Your junk food collection must take up at least a shelf or two.
Our humble host needs to start a snack foods TH-cam channel in addition to the music one!
Which is bigger - your collection of CDs or your collection of snacks?
That's a very difficult question.
Speaking of Bruckner, I fell in love with his music by accident. I was considering a used copy of Jonas Nordwall's Space Organ (Star Wars, etc. on a pizzeria theater organ) on eBay, and the seller had a "buy 2 records, get free shipping" deal. The price for the Klemperer/Vienna Symphony version of Bruckner's 4th was less that the shipping charge, making it better than free under the circumstances. And you know what? I really enjoy both albums. I even bought some more Bruckner symphonies. I also really enjoy both my Fiedler/Boston Pops cover of Beatles music and my box set of Louis Vierne organ symphonies. And I feel no guilt about any of this.
Reportedly, my parents kept me quiet when I was a baby by playing orchestral Tchaikovsky on a repeater record player... To this day, I can listen to a powerful Mahler-2 and then switch over to Black Sabbath (I wish the recordings were better...) -- or the blues (Stormy Monday?) -- or... anything where the watchword is, "play your heart out; your life depends on it". A simple tune played with passion, urgency, finality, soul, etc, moves me.
The usual remark about popular music snobs disapprove is “That’s NOT Music!”-hmm… has melody, rhythm ( lots of rhythm! -and you can dance to it). If it’s not Music, what is it then? Anyway, it’s fun, it’s easily accessible, anybody can enjoy it anytime any place and much of it is Art and not just entertainment. Who doesn’t want to be entertained anyway?
A large bowl of pork rinds slathered in valentina hot sauce often accompanies my hour of active and focused listening (encouraged by Dave). I'm positive that that practice is far healthier for me personally than jogging in the street in dolphin shorts. It's translated into a richer enjoyment and appreciation of some popular music recordings too.
Valentina is great stuff.
When I'm at the symphony, I like to eat Whoppers during the quietest passages.
I've always wondered what classical conductors listen to in their private lives? Is classical so much their job that they only listen when required spending the rest of the time listening to hardcore 90's thrash or the latest albums on the Hip-Hop charts?
I was hooked when I was 4! Part of it was my church....an Eastern Rite church...in which Bortiniovsky, Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninoff from that age onward! I never bought into the Rock n Roll culture, and sock hops in a little later life.....the comparison to junk food is a little fatuous....but you must admit...sheisenmusik es sheisnemusik.......
Sometimes you just never know. For a few days our new tech. from Puerto Rico listened to a rapper named Bad Bunny and others on our van`s speakers while he was driving and I was showing him the ropes (wasn`t my cup of tea nor floated my boat, but he was the driver). A few days later as I entered the shop, he was working on some equipment while listening to a Mozart piano concerto from his Spotify account. One can be intrigued with numerous genres depending on one’s mood.
Case in point - My cat likes to sleep with me. But he also likes to play mummy and daddy with other cats...
My father, a WW2 vet and federal politician, was a long time classical music 'aficionado", to the point where he was the Australian importer and distributor of brands like Monitor Audio, Stanton, Memorex, Cybernet etc. But one of his favorite times was listening to Simon and Garfunkel in Central Park NY in 1981. Blew him away. There is a lot of similarity between Simon and Garfunkel and many classical pieces...
My small collection has classical works from Beethoven (Munch, Karajan), Tchaikovsky (Muti, Munch) with Pink Floyd, Hendrix, Beatles, Amy Whitehouse, Bo Diddley and so on. I like what I like without feeling I have to be constrained to any genre or period.
My cat on the other hand will only stick around when I play classical music. I think that's why he sleeps with me...
Nothing wrong with pop culture in its place. The problem is that we're drowning in it. You want to leave room for more satisfying and nutritious fare. No, the typical American cultural diet is not fine just as it is, but it is true that moralizing about music (or food) is likely to be counter productive.
But fine for who? People choose their own diet. No one is forcing anyone. I don't feel drowned. I choose as I please.
Yes, for me all of music is connected. I was listening to Tears for Fears' "Everybody Wants to Rule the World" the other day and it dawned on me that harmonically the verses sounds like they could have been inspired by Mahler's 9th 1st movement (distilled to simple repeated 'Lebwhol' sigh throughout). I'm not saying Roland Orzabal had this inspiration but it's lovely to imagine these connections between an incredibly complex piece of music and this compact but also beautiful and moving little pop song that most people in my generation would be familiar with.
Speaking of harmless enjoyment of the pleasures of life, any chance of making a video of the most famous classical gaffs left in classical recordings. (maybe it could be called " why did they leave that in" or " how did no one notice?")
The funniest live performance gaff I've witnessed was a highly noted Liszt specialist (Who's recorded Liszt's complete piano works) who jumped into another concerto (I couldn't identify which ) in the last 30-40 seconds of the finale of the Liszt piano concerto #1. He and conductor eventually got in synch again for the last bar. It is amazing the sins that can be hidden by a really long trill.
I can't do it unless I could play samples, and I can't get permission to do that unfortunately.
Wow, way to go Dave! You Rock). This elitist drivel regards to music has always been out there. It even exists to create divisions within the classical genre itself. I cant even count the number of times someone has disparaged my preference for Rossini, or Respighi over Mahler. That only serious spiritual, philosophical whatever has real great merit. I loved classical music, was drawn in by the sounds, the fun and drama as a 13 year old. Who still loves rock, folk and much else. I agree with Duke Ellington, if it sounds good, IT IS good.
Paul
I was a into popular radio as a young kid, a bit of a metalhead as a teenager, and that changed when Metallica had their San Francisco Orchestra concert S&M in the late 1990s. I was already into some film scores, branched out: found Nino Rota, found his classical output and bought a bunch of generic classical music for most of the next 20 years, with only the occasional off the beaten path discovery. Post-2010, got into a lot of k-pop, j-pop and Japanese music just generally. In the last few years however I have found how much killer stuff there is in classical music from composers few have ever heard of, partly because I am a collector of CDs and they are often pretty cheap right now! It is blowing my mind. I can understand why when you have the likes of Schnittke, Casella, Kabalevsky, Tveitt, Scharwenka, John Field, Poulenc or Kapustin, for instance, classical music fans may be elitist. You could binge out on all the classical music and you would never run out of quality stuff to listen to! EDIT: I also quite like the music of Brett Dean. He deserves mention.
I have almost no taste for most popular styles. I got my younger brother a Best of Bob Dylan album for his birthday one year and he ended up a huge fan, but for me even the good stuff I can take it or leave it. There are a few select things I enjoy outside of Classical, but I've long since stopped pretending that me and Jazz are ever gonna be real, or that I'm going out of my way for a classic rock album someone recommends. I simply cannot sustain interest in it. I like Classical Music and I've made my peace with that--and I have had to, because it freezes me out of a lot of conversations. I avoid music discussions now like the plague. Someone inevitably brings up Queen. People think I haven't heard Queen even though you can't step into any place of retail without hearing it.
I'll save a little bit of Michael Jackson (older), most of Johnny Cash, some of The Beatles, a great big chunk of folk music (Vasen, for starters), a few other odds and ends, but generally speaking I'm preferring Baroque organ and trumpet and Romantic symphonic music. There just isn't anything better to my ears.
You're wrong about the Boulez box, though. I enjoy it with a box of Nilla Wafers. ;-)
Ginger snaps for me, if we're talking Boulez and Nabisco.
Man I love what you just said wish I had you as my next door neighbor
i love ur channel and CM and 88.7 buuut im genX so i would recommend: Dorian Eletra, Baby Tron, and BLP KOSER,. i have a 144 fav youtube, playlist,.
David, I agree with you completely! Once high and low culture existed side by side to a greater degree. Now so-called serious music and popular music (ie contemporary folk music) have become separated. One musician who went against this was Leonard Bernstein who often had an open-minded but quality-oriented attitude.
Imagine if the different genres could inspire each other instead! The Beatles were well on their way…
I thought I was the only person who remembered "Dusty's Trail;" it ran for one season (1973-74), and starred Bob Denver and Forrest Tucker. Speaking of marketing, you should start your own line of junk food to enjoy while listening to classical music.
Oh, yeah, I was that once, which I think was just me overcompensating. I kinda liked classical as a kid, much I believe through liking orchestral film scores, but I couldn't admit to it even to myself, and certainly not publically or I'd have been absolutely bullied for it by my peers - well, worse than I already was. Certainly didn't need to give more ammo with something "weird" and end up looking like even more of a weirdo for liking something I shouldn't have.
So once I got out of that social circle and got to higher education where that kind of childishness pretty much dropped off, I started to feel a lot more free in just liking what I like and not making excuses for it. Unfortunately, when I started to buy my own records and really got into classical, it kind of had the adverse effect where I really started to look down on "lesser" artforms as well (animation was another I only later got back to appreciating again).
But at some point as I was getting older I figured that this was pretty dumb and that I did in fact like quite a lot of this other stuff too, so I dropped that snobbery and just inducted my other likes to carry the same value. Certainly there are still musical genres that I just don't get or care for, but I wouldn't try to discourage people from enjoying them, either. Thankfully, though, I don't think I've ever tried to push people into liking what I like or vice versa, so at least there's that.
I have loved classical music since I was a teenager, but I also love Abba, Carpenters, Spice Girls, Beatles, Neil Sedaka, The Kinks, Carole King, Sinatra....
Coming from Gen X that grew up on Bugs Bunny, I think there was always this sense of classical music just being another communal experience of my generation - among the many pop music eras we lived through- disco, 80s pop, classic rock, rap, and grunge. I'm so grateful to have all of the wonderful communal memories and nostalgia that binds us all together in the love of all these various styles. I do feel a bit sad for the younger generation in that I'm not sure they'll ever experience that same enchantment and connection with this pop music era that we did? While Taylor Swift, Beyonce, and perhaps some country stars still have that sort of world-wide appeal- I think even they are getting older. We had so many pop legends: Michael, Prince, Madonna, Whitney, Elton, George Michael, Stevie, etc. Or maybe I'm just getting old and unaware of the younger generation's stars? lol.
I enjoy Gilligan's Island without shame, and I suspect that Dvořák would as well.
My sideways participation in the youth-led vinyl resurgence - based on thrift-store treasure hunting in search of old Nonesuch albums - has brought me to a new appreciation of the actual quality displayed in that genre I loved to hate: mood music.
My polka-record collection is also growing, inexplicably.
Tim's Potato Chips, Dave (you slayed me at Doritos & Mahler) ... Dave for President 2024 ...
Well now I'm hungry.
That is so true 😂 I began with beethoven but I totally enjoy modern stuff. Also know classical music composer nowadays who enjoys dancing to cardi B. No issue!
But let's be honest that's a 2-way street. When I mention classical music as a genre, people look at me funny too - like what's wrong with you 😂
What do you think of this idea: popular music is often better performed on average than classical music?
No. I think the comparison is pretty meaningless.
I would like to believe you have a huge array of snacks behind the camera every single video 😂
Yeah I don’t do classical music, I hope, out of any kind of snobbery- there’s a personal history to my involvement in it that’d take too long to relate. I just know that a lot of recent popular stuff isn’t aimed at me and that’s ok. It’s for younger people mostly. But of course I enjoy the pop music that was and is aimed at me and I hear it all the time mostly in social settings when I’m out and about. I have no idea what Taylor Swift actually sounds like but that’s not out of snobbery it’s just it’s not aimed at me! And I don’t think that matters. But, plainly I’m not disagreeing with you Dave
THANK YOU!
I like to say I'm musically promiscuous-- it's cheaper than the other kind. :) . I love classical music and jazz, but also a good deal of pop, folk, blues,country & r&b. Just depends on mood, time, etc. And I agree there's so much out there that's more accessible than ever. But Auntie Mame's comment: 'Life is a banquet and most people are starving to death'f still applies. And maybe more now than ever unfortunately.
I love you Dave, thank you!
Agreed. The best 'pop' music is way better than median-level classical music.
The word "rigor" always reminds me of "mortis".
Read recently that Mick Jagger apparently loves Messiaen. If he can like Messiaen, we can like the Rolling Stones (or whatever).
Dear David, please make a food review channel asap!
Funnily enough, it is much easier for people to get into classical music now BECAUSE of social media. LPs cost a fortune, CDs cost a bit less, but a kid in his room can get instant access to basically all of classical music for free. So I’m not sure how its social media that is driving people away from classical music.(?)
I agree with you. It has never been easier or less expensive.
Great rant. And maybe the bigger point is we should stop dividing everything up in to categories and silos. As Leonard Bernstein said, "There are only two types of music- good music and everything else". I have always loved and worshipped Bach, Mozart, Miles Davis, Stravinsky, Bartok, The Beatles, Sinatra, Aaron Copland, Joni Mitchell, Debussy, Ravel, Bill Evans, Stevie Wonder, Duke Ellington, Prince and the Beach Boys. (Dave- sit down and give us a serious critical analysis of 'God Only Knows'. Treat it as a 'classical' piece of music. I would be fascinated to hear what you have to say.)
I also occasionally enjoy The Police, Isaac Albeniz, Vaughan Williams, Olivier Messiaen (some, anyway), Joao Gilberto, Beck, Wayne Shorter, Marvin Gaye and Fleetwood Mac.
It sounds like I'm dividing things into A and B categories, and maybe so, but that's not really how I listen. It's ALL music, folks. Just keep an open mind and listen!
Dave, 'God only knows' - yes please! And Good Vibrations.
Time to dig out the old "Hooked on Classics" cds without shame........
Steady on ...!! 🧐 ☺️
I think classical music is super-fun too. So sue me, if that makes it less serious. I get easy gratification from Mendelssohn....
to be honest the more I think about it the more I realize that comparing popular music to "junk food" is incredibly harmful
not to knock the analogy you're using here, of course, it's a great analogy and extremely well-done, but in a broader sense, comparing something to junk food implies that it's bad for you, that it's not a good idea to consume it in massive quantities, and that it cannot be a substitute for a proper meal. these are all things that I absolutely don't think can be unilaterally applied to pop music. sure, there's a heaping helping of flavorless empty calories flowing from the radio all the time (and there always has been), but just because it can appeal to people OTHER than the turbo-nerds doesn't mean it can't be incredibly fulfilling. calling it "junk food" almost implies that it _cannot_ do that, or that it _shouldn't_ do that, and in my experience that couldn't be more false
immediate gratification is a valid way to enjoy music! something being immediately appealing is often the gold standard of music. what really matters (at least to me) is if that immediacy can be transferred into more enjoyment with a deeper look
and don't get me wrong, I'm down for music that makes you put in some work, but discounting music that ISN'T requiring you to become a mental Olympic gymnast ignores the fact that it can still be incredibly artistically satisfying