If they are gonna be this intense about the rules, they should just standardize the drop serve across the board. How can I, as a 4.0 player in a tournament verify if my opponent is at 60 degrees versus 45 degrees with his/her arm? Or a slight upward movement? Realistically, the drop serve makes the rules much easier to follow. There’s no reason the serve should be this nuanced, we don’t need to turn pickleball into the NFL and have instant replay to check on the validity of a serve. Just drop the ball and get the point started.
Exactly! This is a great explanation haha. It makes no sense to have to look at the angle. I’m sure they’ll not move forward with this one, but what do you think?
@@pickleballplaybookI certainly hope they don’t move forward with rule. A lot of lower level players already struggle with serving and this is going to make it even more difficult to serve legally.
Personally I already drop serve, and you can do things with the drop that are super cool that you could never do with a volley serve. The benefit of the drop is that I am free to just hit the ball as best I can. Plus I’ve seen a lot of people break the existing rules unknowingly with volley serving, and don’t have the heart to tell em. I think the only argument I’ve ever heard against the drop serve is wind affecting your dropped ball, which would affect everyone equally and has never been much of an issue for me without huge gusts.
I think they are making this aspect of the game way too complicated; the game should be played for beginners and pros. If they are going in the direction where you are adding tedious rules to the serves besides not hitting above your waist/wrist below, you might as well just make a drop serve-only rule. This whole not being able to slightly raise your arm now when dropping the ball, even if you hit it below your waist, is ridiculous, in my opinion.
Yeah I agree. It’s in its developmental stages right now… with it being so young. Once they figure out the best solution, that’s what we will all be doing. Thoughts?
Thoughts…this is hot garbage. Let’s get rid of the forward pass in football…some qbs can throw further than others and it’s not fair. No dunking in basketball…not everyone can. Any pitch over 100 is a foul…not everyone can throw that hard and can you imagine how hard it is to hit??? Unfair!!!
Totally agree. It’s all nonsense. How are they going to measure a 45 degree angle from a 47 degree. They can’t Further more these guys are pros they can hit and retrieve every shot in the book. Just let them play already. Sheez
Agree. Tennis player here and the obsession over this type of minutiae really discourages me from switching over. Not that pickleball doesn't already have enough players. Hopefully recreational games are more mellow/easygoing than this.
The point of this is to take the serve out of the game. I think this gets too technical for the average or beginner player, but it doesn't stop players from doing a drop serve and not worrying about all these technicalities. All sports have moves or techniques which more advanced players will be able to execute more than a beginner.
Agree, it should be simple. What makes it not simple is failure to enforce the rule. The most egregious example being at the pro level (which of course trickles down) where serves are now full force volleys at or above the waist line, paddle above the wrist, refs ignore it. So, we get into the complicated metrics game of control. It’s kinda like needing to go back to the original constitution to get a grip on social sanity: go back to the original pball rule book and ENFORCE serve requirements to the original purpose of the serve, initiation of the point, that’s why the two-bounce rule is there.
When I started pickleball a year ago I got decent with the drop serve. But once I started playing at different courts (even at the same location), the inconsistencies of the ground + the holes of the ball had too much variances as to where and when you're going to strike it that at times you need to drop twice to get that proper bounce. Serves are sure weapons on the court but I wish they focused more on the important things like having at least line callers. Regardless of the opinion of the pros on having line judges, it's ridiculous that an opponent can make calls that jeopardizes one's effort which is a bigger issue. It's like being on trial where your defense is overruled by the one suing you instead of the judge (a third neutral party) making the ruling. Some pros hate line judges until they face Salome.
I like the drop serve idea, solves the problem of lifting with the volley serve. Great question is, when playing recreationally and not at the pro level, should everyone be getting mad at the guy that spins it, drop serves or side arms it? Rec play should be for fun, so I say as long as it isn't an obvious overhead tennis serve, let people serve how they like if it remotely represents a serve close to the hip. If you go pro, stick with the pro rules.
Absolutely! I am fairly new to the game and just enjoy a spirited but friendly game. All these weekly complications are going to suck the life out of a good thing
I agree with not being so picky about it. I’ve seen comments about arguments on the court but at amateur level I don’t see that it really matters that much. I go to have fun and get exercise.
Paddle/Wrist position does not matter in drop serves according to USA pickleball rule book. You could in theory drop to your knees after dropping the ball and hit an overhead serve if the ball would bounce high enough. In my opinion making all serves a drop serve will end most of the serve disputes
@@pickleballplaybook it's in the section that covers the drop serves. Rule 4.A.8.C - "the restrictions that apply to the volley serve in rule 4.A.7 do not apply to the drop serve"
🤣 I love this! I would now like to make this my signature serve. And I just checked the rules, and it looks to me like you’re absolutely correct. I was thinking beefier that navel-level spotted to both serves, but I see now that it doesn’t. Thank you for pointing this out. :)
@@liit4m8 the issue is it's almost impossible to get a ball to bounce above your waist by dropping it in the drop serve. However, If you can get used to hitting the shin high you can get a lot of spin and wrist action once you learn the mechanics
There is a problem with the drop serve too. We have some young kids and short adults, they drop the ball and drive the ball hard, many seniors are having hard time to return it. we just need to watch the side spin/bounce serve.
I don't know how long the drop serve has been around but it was originally for players with disabilities. In 2021 it was allowed on a trial basis and in 2022 made legal for everyone.
@@jeremypuckett3382 the ball bounce same height, tall adults have disadvantages. Some parents brought their kids and I played with young tennis players; they can hit the ball with full side drive & side snap drive.
@@gabeanderson8816 I'm late to the party with this video. Sorry, that's the top of the pelvic bone. The hip bone is where your leg attaches, generally just above the level of your groin. Think hip hugger pants. This guy is wearing high-waisted pants.
@@SanityReigns-pz8qhyep, you’re right. Good clarification. Rulebook should use actual anatomical terms. All the ref training I’ve received has referred to the iliac crest as the “top of the hip” which is confusing
West Coast Florida gets super windy on the courts regardless of changing angle because the wind angle changes so quickly. Lots of droppers switch their server when this happens.
I don´t like the drop serve for myself but these rules are getting ridiculous on the volley serves. If this new drop from the hip thing becomes a rule in non-pro play then I will be going to a drop serve. That 45 degree thing looks terribly awkward.
Pickleball is already a rule-intensive sport, whether it is with regards to the NVZ faults, the base line foot fault on the serve, the service motion or the line calls. And now they are talking about the no-carry rule and a colour rule for clothes and the paddle. Even in the case of an officiated match, it is difficult for a referee (or even two referees in some cases) to enforce this farrago of rules. A referee would eyes all around his head. And let’s not forget what problems this creates for non-officiated matches, whether for competitive or social play. One of the aspects of the game that often causes bitter arguments on court, especially at the amateur level (since there are no officials present) is the traditional service rule (or rules). 1. Contacting the ball above the waist (belly button?) : With some people, it is rather difficult to determine where is their waist (let alone their belly button or the top of their hip bone). Also, some people bend down quite far at the waist and knees when serving. So should it be their waist when standing upright, or when they are bending ? Then how can one really tell if they are following the rule ? 2. Contacting the ball with the head of the paddle above the wrist : Again, this rule causes many squabbles as to whether the head of the paddle was above or below the wrist when the ball was contacted. The server is often accused of serving "side-arm", especially when that person attempts to put right or left side spin on the ball. This happens on the forehand serve, but very often on the backhand serve. 3. Contacting the ball while making an upward motion : We used to be told to serve in a manner resembling the motion that is used in throwing a bowling ball. The service motion has evolved and this technique is no longer strictly observed. Even a slight upward motion can be used, which is difficult to determine and can cause disagreement. Implementing the drop serve as the only serve allowed would resolve the above-mentioned issues, including the finger spin technique. If professional players are reluctant to adopt this rule, maybe this rule could be imposed at the amateur level where there are no officials present to make a decision. For example, for amateur matches, the rules say that if, on the serve, the ball hits the top of the net and falls in the appropriate service court passed the NVZ line, the serve is considered good and play continues, whereas this rule doesn’t apply to professional matches. Also, the rule for the drop serve should specify that the ball must be dropped from above the shoulder to make sure that the serve is not imparting downward force on the ball. Many players using this serving technique drop their hand with the ball, but claim that they are not putting downward force on the ball.
A lot of players crouch down quite a bit before releasing the ball then use the upward (and forward) momentum before contacting the ball at the top of their extension. When crouched the arm will be much higher than 45 degrees… even close to horizontal. Then, as you stand up during the swing the ball contact will be at or below the hip level. I understand that 45 degree analogy if you start standing erect.
Good point! I think if they’re going to crouch, their serve will be a lot less powerful because they are going to have to swing extremely quickly to get it before it hits the ground. This will not allow them to do a full coil and uncoil as they hit through the ball. What do you think?
@@pickleballplaybook the example at the end of the video also highlights how subtle the "toss" is... in regular speed it doesn't look like there is any upward motion but when you slow it down it shows the ball moving upward slightly. I suspect that when it comes to the pros they will "release" around waist-height but perhaps the ball will have a slight upward trajectory (barely perceptible to the human eye). This also "hangs" the ball for a short time in the air allowing more time for the swing and subsequent followthrough. While I agree that a bounce serve is probably the easiest to rule on... I absolutely love the volley serve which eliminates a few elements like wind and inconsistent bounces (small inconsistencies in the court surface, ball bounces on a hole, debris on the court).
Questions for clarification: What was the issue with you raising the ball right as you served? Was he calling it over the waist or was he calling it a toss? If it's over the hips then just start lower. If he's calling it a toss, then how can it be a toss if you are still holding it? It only matters what the ball does after you let go, correct? In the clay shooting sport of FITASC, shooters are required to have a line embroidered or marked on their garment because the gun butt stock must remain below that line until after the clay target is thrown. I wonder how long it will be before you have to have a line on your shirt to indicate your waist in pickleball? I'm new to the sport, and have played in no tournaments, but it seems boring to remove all of the variety/fun out of the serve.
@@pickleballplaybook I get what they are saying, but to my opinion it doesn't matter what it does while it's still in your hand as long as it doesn't go up any once it leaves your hand.
The drop serve is and has been part of the game and with the current rules, makes the most sense, esp. if players are having issues with the rules of serving. They at least get that if they are being called out for breaking said rules. I've been working on my my drop volley serve and use both actually depending on factors per match.
Does anyone have actual Player statistics on Aces per game? Versus other sports with Serves? I rarely get Aces in Pickleball compared to how many I get in Volleyball and Tennis.
I can see this in officiated game, but not in rec games. I played a guy who was side arming his serve, and told him that his serve was illegal, and he denied what i said and said that his serve was totally legal. The next few times he served more underhand and his serve was so much slower.
Great video. Most people I speak with, just allow a drop serve only. Towards the end of the video you asked the ref if he'd call your serve and he said "probably" not. Probably??????? Just more confusion.
I've been playing less that a year but I noticed right away all the people who serve illegally. They are too close to call for the most part. When called out, they always say "I'm swinging up!" and yeah, 1 degree up is up, I guess. Nobody wants to talk about their paddle being below their wrist though. I've never heard the complaint about the wind and the drop serve and never really had a problem with the drop serve in windy/gusty conditions. I think you automatically compensate after a drop or two. The complaint I have heard about going to the drop serve is that the volley serve has been around since the beginning of pickleball and players have worked on perfecting their volley serve over the years. That is no doubt true, but it doesn't change the fact that the existing volley serve rules are impossible to enforce. I suspect those that will complain the loudest are the ones that have perfected a border line serve that is probably illegal but too close to call. Mostly what this change does is move the point of contact lower. The other rules are still in effect, so you are going to have the same problem with people hitting a side-arm serve. You may not see it at first, but given enough time, players will figure it out. The drop serve is the ultimate answer.
If the rule states that the ball cannot be struck above your hip when you are standing upright, then if they bend their knees quite a bit and get low to the ground, then they should be able to have a higher degree than 45, right ?
the only rule for the drop serve which I have read in rec play, is that you drop the ball not toss it not bounce it. The ball does not bounce above the waist, therefore you don't have to worry about when where you contact the ball. From my last reading of the rule book it said something like drop serve =you have to drop the ball and NO OTHER RULES apply.
Can we first establish the HIPS AND WAIST the band around his body is at HIS waist, hips are the sides of your legs not at your waist at all. Hips around would include your butt, waist is in naval area above the hips where a belt would ideally go. ESTABLISH THAT first then decide where ball hand arms should be
Consider. In tennis ground strokes are amazing if hit 90-95 mph. Serves can be up to 145 mph. It’s all in the mechanics. A pickleball serve underhand is world class if 60-65 mph. What is the goal here? Maybe just toss the ball into play overhand. This is getting ridiculous
The fences are way to close to do an overhead serve. I could easily hit the side fence every serve I do. Also this would make pickleball less inclusive and not as many people would play. Hence why there is more people that play pickleball than any other sport on the planet! What are your thoughts?
I’m not suggesting overhead serves. I think pickleball was designed to disadvantage the server. Tennis is opposite. The serve has the advantage. If pickleball wants to further disadvantage the serve maybe go to a ping pong serve. It must bounce on server’s side then in opponent’s serve box. I’m being facetious but it would certainly negate the serve.
Definitely think they should allow drop serve. Wind argument is weak. If the wind is gusting or strong, it would still effect the ball weather it's a drop serve or volley serve. Drop serve is easy to rule on because, as you said, no way for it to bounce too high. Surprised they're not allowing it.
To those that love the drop serve: ***** This is not the "easy answer" you think it is. ***** I regularly play with players that don't do a clean drop - they add energy and even obvious (but not crazy) spin. They are astonished. They CAN'T do it right even when I explain. Just like some people violate the nvz and don't believe it when you tell them.
Good point. I think since it has to hit the ground, any spin they apply is to their detriment cause it will give them an inconsistent bounce. Thoughts?
Looks like I'll have to figure out and fix my serve. My regular coach says my serve is fine. I went to a new location to play and was told that my serve was illegal. I'm pretty new to pickleball (about 3.5 months), but I do understand the strategies. I think the drop serve should be an option in all applications.
the drop serve is the ONLY way to eliminate all the drama of the serve...Tyson is probably the biggest offender but others are getting close to the line...I am a volley server but I am sure I can change...when I first started, other players say I had a border line illegal serve ( more level with navel) so I changed...that was over a year ago and i never even notice the subtle change...the first couple of serves were a learning curve but it is 2nd nature after a few games just like a drop serve will be for me...i may even try a few tomorrow to see the difference
I agree that making the drop serve the only legal serving option is the best way to go. I don’t agree that Tyson’s serves are illegal. I have looked at his serves frame by frame and I think that they are just barely legal, which is the same thing as completely legal. The only thing that is questionable is whether he contacts the ball below the waist. Unfortunately “waist” is never precisely defined in the official rules, so no one can really call him on this because in pickleball we tend to only call an infraction if there is no doubt on the call. Also, I have not seen “waist” defined in the rules. Outside the rules, I think that it is considered to be the level of the navel, but until the rules require us to play with the navel exposed (unlikely to say the least), there is no way to fairly enforce this rule.
@@pickleballplaybookdid he mean CANT toss the serve? I’m under the impression that a slight toss on the volley serve is legal so long as all contact is below hips with upward swing which is angled lower then the wrist. Can you confirm? Reason I ask is because someone called me on a slight toss to my volley serve today telling me it was illegal and I don’t believe it is if all other contact requirements mentioned are met. Thank you!
This is why tennis is easier "rules wise" This is over complicated. "Tennis, hit the ball out of the air, behind the line in each of your service box's starting to the right and get the ball into the opposite service box over the net, to your opponent int'l you reach 4 points or win by 2 .Also has to touch inside or on the line in the opponents service box opposite of you or its a fault, try one ,more time". My rebuttal for Pickle ball is to keep it simple and fair for everyone. To do that make it so you have to make contact at or under the tennis, oh i mean pickle balls net at the highest point. This removes advantages of taller people who have higher hips because this sport, i mean rule is unfair for short people.
Very true! Pickleball is still in its infancy and has to pin down some rules. This definitely isn’t the solution but it’s a step in the right direction I believe. What do you think?
Exactly. So many are serving sidearm. Just have hand under the ball. A pitcher in softball cannot serve sidearm, That is illegal. Have hand under ball on release, same as softball.
@@CreightonOls I don't think ppl who gripe about "too many" rules (esp. for serves) realize that the *point* of serves is not to ace most of the time (which would turn paddle / racket sports into mostly battles of serves which almost noone would want to play / watch). The *point* is to help ensure that both: a) most serves *and* b) most *returns* of most serves are returnable so that each side has a likely chance to return a ball to get a rally going. Unlike tennis, pb rules allow serves to land near the baseline, that plus the relative ease of landing a serve near the baseline even with an underhand softball pitch like toss is plenty to ensure that the returns of those serves are returnable.
Why don't they simply make the rule that the ball can not be higher than the net when hit during the serve. This removes the size of the server as being a factor and is universally consistent.
So many rules I can’t keep up. I was told yesterday that I was doing a fault serve because I was holding the ball palms up vs palms down. I am short so my serve is just by my navel area. Am I at fault?
My question/comment is, what difference does it make what you do with your arm AFTER you have dropped the ball away from your hand???? I can understand this caveat if this stipulation applied when the ball is still in your hand. Unless you are a magician, you can't affect the ball's drop after you have released it.
It’s not that my arm is lifting after I drop, it’s that it lifts as you drop. This is because if I don’t have some lift the ball will hit the ground before I have time to swing at it. Does that help?
I'm sorry to say, but IMO, this serve rule proposal is silly at best! What is the advantage of this serve rule change? I can't see any difference and/or advantage that one will have by serving above or below the waistline! Pickleball is a fun game, but if you guys are going to make it more complicated with goofy rules, then it will no longer be fun! If you want to apply this rule at tournaments, then fine! But, if you're going to make this rule standard for everyone who plays (even just for fun,) then you'll see more division and arguments between players! Please take it easy with all the new rules! Let's keep the game fun and easy to play for everyone!
All about momentum. If you fall even after the point is dead you get a fault called. Unless of course you step in on purpose and have full control of yourself!
@@pickleballplaybook for real? Is that offical? If the ball bounces 2 isnt the point over? Like in tennis. I can touch the net , fall over the net as long as the ball has bounced twice?
I have no idea about this. I'm a tennis player. You can literally do whatever you want on the serve as long as it doesn't bounce. I say do whatever you want on the serve as long as it does bounce in pickleball. Makes things much simpler for all involved.
These kind of rules do NOT make sense for few reasons I could think of listed below: Even for a trained referee, it is tough to say if 42, 43 or 44 degrees are legal and if 46, 47, 48 or 49 are legal. I mean even for a trained referee, it is tough to measure degrees. This gets even more absurd at the recreational level and other local tournaments ! I think rules should be made in such a way that they are easier to enforce, not have a subjective element to the. If rules are subjective, then by the same token, how can they be considered a rule ?
It's not a 'bounce' serve. You can't propel it. You can only drop it which happens to allow it to bounce. People already get very confused by the word 'bounce' being incorrectly referenced.
@MrCho14 it doesn't need to be propelled to bounce. Gravity does all the work. Drop a pickleball from waist level onto a pickleball court and it will bounce even without being manually propelled
I think the drop serve only fixes more problems than it creates and is the best way to go. Also, all illegal serves should cause a penalty with no re-does.
This seems to be indicative of a sport going through growing pains. I'm not sure the best people are in place right now at the PPA. The fact that they are still toying around with the serve at this point, with rules that will greatly burden referees and add controvercy for fault calls, is absurd. Just make it a drop serve and be done with it. This sport could grow to a new level if the right people are making the right moves. This is not a move in the right direction.
I completely agree. Only way to keep it fair. People complain that the drop serve is too difficult in the wind though… those are all low level players that say that. So I think at lower levels you can do either but at higher levels it should be drop only. Thoughts?
With a little wind, the drop serve can be absolutely deadly. I'm not sure why I focused on the drop serve, but I did. The way I serve, I can hit a very spinning shot that will move 3 feet laterally as it curves over and low to the net. I can vary how much power I can put behind it to a degree. So I never really hit it the same twice. I'll push it deep, drop it short, or make it more of a power shot here and there. All with the exact same mechanics so I can disguise what serve I'm hitting quite easily. If there is wind in my face, this serve is lethal.. I can push it deep, which is my standard serve. It's not particularly hard to return, but you have to respect it, as the extreme movement and skip it takes on the bounce can very easily wind up in disaster for the returning player if they try "counter spin", or some fancy wrist shot with it. Its ofen it long or in the net if they don't just push it back. When I play new guys(even skilled ones), I'll sneak a few points if they aren't used to it. They will try something other than a vanilla return and will hit it out or in the net. But eventually, they get used to it. It tends to provoke a very predictable 2nd shot, which is why I have been told many times it's a really good serve. It's not particularly hot, but it is tricky enough that you just want to get it back over. So, we tend to have an easier 3rd shot. If there is wind in my face, I can increase the spin and decrease the power. This causes it to fly over the net, bounce short, and literally start rolling sideways. It's lethal. The wind scrubs enough speed off that it just dies when it hits. If the opposing team starts cheating up, I'll hit it deep! It's very effective. If there is a significant wind in my face, I can easily run off 4-5 or more points a serving session. If the wind is to your back, it's not particularly helpful, but if it's in your face, or one side - wow.. Now its not as sexy as a poweful volley serve, but I use it because i have learned to be very consistent with it, and I'm more interested in setting up the 3rd shot than scoring aces. The drop serve allows me to do that very well. I don't think people understand the potential of the drop serve.
Nothing makes a sport more popular to the masses than unnecessarily complicated rules that are literally impossible to monitor and enforce at the amateur level where there's no umpire. Ah yes, declaring a lot of recently purchased expensive equipment by major brands illegal is also a great way to boost a sports popularity!
The current rules for the volley serve are too complicated and difficult to enforce. So this new test rule further complicates it to make contact height more easily enforceable but adds yet another difficult aspect to enforce. THIS IS NOT PROGRESS. The rules on the volley serve and its enforcement are irredeemable. Several other pros like Zane Navratil have said to just standardize on the drop (bounce) serve. I don't see a better solution.
For recreational players we play with warped pickleballs an imperfect courts so dropping the ball becomes an adventure. Volley serves solve that problem.
Drop serve only everywhere. It solves all the close infractions. Such an easy fix. Additionally, they should implement Rally scoring right now. I was a badminton player when we had side out scoring. I didn't think I would ever get used to Rally scoring. I thought Rally scoring changed the game forever. I was stupid. I remember the Nationals with people playing at 2:00 am and back on court at 8:00 am. Stupid!!! All larger Tournaments should go to "Rally period. Just think, being able to arrive at the court and playing close to when it is scheduled? Who doesn't want that.
I agree that the simplest solution is universal adoption of the drop serve, @ ALL LEVELS. The challenge to this fix is, I fear, the Olympics. Going to the drop serve would be the equivalent of mandating no overhead serves in tennis, a decidedly amateurish adoption. It seems that the Olympics Poobahs are more inclined to admit racquet/paddle sports that emphasize aggression from the outset of the game (emotionalism overrules intellectualism). Of course, flag football has been admitted, not the NFL (wait, there’ll be 6’ 8”, 380# O&D linemen in Olympic flag football!). The legalization of the drop serve is, I think, an attempt to encourage a return to the original purpose of the pball serve: point initiation follow by a two-bounce return. At THAT POINT, it’s equal GAME ON. I do think that it’d be nice to get back to that, especially below the pro level. The Olympics quit being an amateur event 3 decades ago, so it’s not likely that any pball levels below pro will be in the Olympics. Pros do need to play to pro-level (& preferred Olympic-level) rules, so the volley serve could be authorized as low as the 5-level, or just restricted to the pro level.
Tennis (and PB) player here. As undeniably observable in the video, the arm is "rising" BEFORE release of the ball, NOT afterwards while hitting the ball. When serving from open stance as demonstrated in the video, the tossing ball arm is "rising" because the ball hand is reaching way over to the opposite side of the body where the hitting zone is located. Instead, close the stance and bend forward at the waist for numerouse significant advantages: - the tossing arm is now almost vertical and stationary for very consistent release of the ball. - much simpler biomechanics (fewer moving parts) for increased consistency and accuracy. - controlled back to forward body weight transfer for increased power WITH accuracy. In general, whenever setting up to hit a groundstroke, use closed stance as much as possible.
I too am a tennis and PB player. Pickleball is a bit different with ground strokes. You actually want to keep an open stance as much as possible so you’re facing the court. You’re more like a goalie in Pickleball. The #1 player in the world just changed his serve to open stance (Ben John’s). Interestingly enough when my arm rose the ref said that he saw it slightly rise but wouldn’t call it. Definitely a difficult thing to monitor as a ref.
@pickleballplaybook Open stance "goaltending" at the kitchen where the exchanges are fast is certainly correct. Crabbing in open stance provides mobility. As for groundstrokes, as clearly observable in many recent videos, when there is plenty of time to correctly set up for the shot, BJ, ALW, etc, hit with varying amounts of closed stances.
They should go to the drop serve only. The lift of the ball and a 45 degree arm angle are pretty judgmental and will have the same issues we have with NFL refs.
We will have some at our club using cell phone video and cameras to view "like the pro's." How about teaching people to release and bounce from day 1 on serves, and then the returner figures out what to do!
There going to screw this game up just like they have with golf, can,t stop meddling with it, it,s tedious , sit down once and for all and get everything fixed and then leave it at that..
+1 on drop serve only - as i understand it the whole point of the serve in pickleball being slowed down is to basically guarantee a rally - so lets just have a simple to enforce rule
Drop Serve. A simple solution that is fair or equal for everyone...you can't cheat on this unless you spin it or toss it up, both easy to see by the Ref or your opponent. The excuse not to allow it because the wind can blow it is silly since the wind can blow any shot any time and we all adjust our shots based on the wind.
Excellent video man! Thank you. And I agree with most of the others, it’s absolutely stupid. How are the rules are going. When I took my first lessons, he went over the two different serve types, and I remember thinking what the heck? Just make it a drop serve for everybody, for crying out loud…
oh and one other thing, while I'm not a scientist, I know any object falls at a rate of 32 ft per second per second. Therefore, the determining factor on what height the ball has fallen to is not the angle of the arm, its the timing of backswing. A player with longer backswing takes longer to contact the ball therefore contacting it lower even when dropped from same height as playing with shorter quicker backswing.
With a stopwatch and a yardstick, you could fix your misperception with a rather trivial investment of your own grey matter. You've quoted the downward acceleration at sea level on planet Earth. Newton taught us that: d = v0 * t + 1/2 * a * t^2 With v0=0 for a motionless drop, a=9.81 m/s^2, and some rearrangement you get: t = sqrt(d) / sqrt(9.81/2) Restated in English, time (seconds) is linearly proportional to the square root of distance fallen (meters). I'm 20% taller than a woman who is 5'3" but I only get about 10% longer to hit the ball. This because sqrt(1.2) approximately equals 1.1. This doesn't matter much physically, because it's the same formula for acceleration of my backswing. My backswing is also 20% further, but it only takes 10% longer to complete at the same paddle acceleration. This cancels out physically, but not cognitively. I still have longer to plan it out. But my nerves are 20% longer and it really does take 20% longer for my nerve impulses to travel to my muscles and the sensory signal to travel back. This degrades coordination in taller people. But the paddle weighs less compared to my body mass, so it takes less relative effort to accelerate the paddle at the same rate, which boosts control, partially cancelling out the long nerve path. My high torso mass relative to my limbs helps to stabilize my swing. But it also makes running expensive and you have a lower oxygen intake to body mass ratio (hence you rarely see Shaq on the Tour de France). But maybe you can get away with running a bit less, because you can reach more without moving your feet. Except your partner is short and doesn't have the wheels to run back to defend the lob, so you end up defending the deep lob on your partner's side. You've got sasquatch legs, so no problem running back to your own diagonal corner to cover a short return when your partner can't be bothered to switch. Well, so much for standing around in one place using your long arms. Finally, I can reach a full foot deeper into the kitchen when I crouch so that my shoulder is at net height. When I stand erect, it's a 45 degree downward arm angle to place my paddle at net height, which cancels out most of my reach advantage. To get my shoulder to net height requires almost a 90 degree knee bend. Hard to run in a 90 degree knee bend. Up elevator, run to new place, down elevator. I can run fast or I can reach deep into the kitchen, but only with an elevator in between. The elevator delay is pretty significant in a fast exchange. When I don't crouch, my oblique line of sight to balls coming horizontal over the net with barely any clearance is terrible for assessing details of ball path, especially spin. There are a lot of tradeoffs against scale if you stop to think long enough. The first step on a long journey is stopping to think once.
Gusty wind is likely more of a problem than constant wind because you can't predict what will happen over the time the ball is dropped and then bounces up. This is less of an issue with a volley serve where there is very little time between the ball release and paddle impact.
I play on one surface, a tennis court with PB lines, where the camber for water runoff is excessive. The worst corner messes with my bounce serve something fierce, as the ball kicks to the side after the bounce, and not so consistently, either. Ball after ball goes out by six inches to the side if I don't nerf my standard mechanics. At the pro level, I suspect this is a variable they don't need.
3:45 you still raise your arm an inch or two!!! This is a stupid rule -_-. The rule that you can't hit above the naval is ridiculous and unfair as well since people have different heights. So shorter people have their disadvantages exaggerated.
From a referee's perspective, this is a PIA....adding more "hair-splitting" rules that really don't make that much difference is mentally exhausting when having to watch for these types of things in all day, all weekend tournament.
Another issue with new volley serve rules is that the body naturally ticks upward when you start motion for serving underhand. This natural rotation brings the drop hand (non-paddle hand) upwards. It's a natural motion, so it's going to be extremely difficult to judge these serves. Which then would most likely cause undue focus on the serve, which might lead to additional distraction for the referees. 🤷♂
After watching this weekend there doesn’t seem to be a big issue with this. Ben was called a couple of times. The PPA never allows the drop serve. PPA should just follow USAP Rules period.
Drop serve solves almost all of your problems. I use it regularly, including on windy days. Even on windy days, it is way easier to hit than a volley serve. Some of the people I play with give the ball a slight toss on a drop serve, making it illegal, but I never call it unless it is really egregious. I figure that a slight toss gives no meaningful advantage over just dropping the ball, so it is not a problem for me to just let it go.
When some of my opponents miss their return, it will be because my arm was raising as I released the ball. Of course, they are watching for any tiny infraction rather than the ball being served. I'd like to keep the drop serve.
Yes but then they’re only calling it 50% of the time. If you go lower as the standard then they’ll still go above that but you can monitor it much more and it is much below the chest even when it’s “high”
Drop server should be only server allowed but if powers that be aren't going to do that I guess what the PPA is doing solves the HUGE problem with illegal servers. The biggest issue with this change is, if implemented as the rule for volley serves as a USAP rule in the future, is that in non-officiated matches the opponent can't call illegal serves so you'll still have people dropping it from above the hip or tossing it.
I have been saying this for a while-palm facing down released no higher than waist level is how the volley serve should be ruled. It is easier for a referee to judge and as a player really not that hard to make this adjustment. To many uncontrollable variables with a drop serve for me (wind, surface, type of ball, player height, etc.), however both should still be the players option.
99% of the players, me included, slightly toss the ball upwards to sync with the natural follow-up motion to extend the torque on the body. Good luck to penalize on that. Second, I like to step in the ball and trust me, that adds 20% more power to the shots, I am aceing easily most of the 3.0 players. Try to penalize that one as well. They need to stop crafting new rules on the serves, especially because 99% of the people don't play in official tournaments, the only rule should be not to add pre-spin, the height will always be something questionable. I guarantee Johns hits some serves above his waist, if not most of them.
Just go with the rules we have had for years. The more space there is between the paddle and ball allows for the accuracy to go down. I want to hit specific spots/areas with the highest accuracy.
If they are gonna be this intense about the rules, they should just standardize the drop serve across the board. How can I, as a 4.0 player in a tournament verify if my opponent is at 60 degrees versus 45 degrees with his/her arm? Or a slight upward movement?
Realistically, the drop serve makes the rules much easier to follow. There’s no reason the serve should be this nuanced, we don’t need to turn pickleball into the NFL and have instant replay to check on the validity of a serve.
Just drop the ball and get the point started.
This
Exactly! This is a great explanation haha. It makes no sense to have to look at the angle. I’m sure they’ll not move forward with this one, but what do you think?
@@pickleballplaybookI certainly hope they don’t move forward with rule. A lot of lower level players already struggle with serving and this is going to make it even more difficult to serve legally.
Straight up!
Personally I already drop serve, and you can do things with the drop that are super cool that you could never do with a volley serve. The benefit of the drop is that I am free to just hit the ball as best I can. Plus I’ve seen a lot of people break the existing rules unknowingly with volley serving, and don’t have the heart to tell em.
I think the only argument I’ve ever heard against the drop serve is wind affecting your dropped ball, which would affect everyone equally and has never been much of an issue for me without huge gusts.
I think they are making this aspect of the game way too complicated; the game should be played for beginners and pros. If they are going in the direction where you are adding tedious rules to the serves besides not hitting above your waist/wrist below, you might as well just make a drop serve-only rule. This whole not being able to slightly raise your arm now when dropping the ball, even if you hit it below your waist, is ridiculous, in my opinion.
Yeah I agree. It’s in its developmental stages right now… with it being so young. Once they figure out the best solution, that’s what we will all be doing. Thoughts?
Thoughts…this is hot garbage. Let’s get rid of the forward pass in football…some qbs can throw further than others and it’s not fair. No dunking in basketball…not everyone can. Any pitch over 100 is a foul…not everyone can throw that hard and can you imagine how hard it is to hit??? Unfair!!!
Totally agree. It’s all nonsense. How are they going to measure a 45 degree angle from a 47 degree. They can’t Further more these guys are pros they can hit and retrieve every shot in the book. Just let them play already. Sheez
Agree. Tennis player here and the obsession over this type of minutiae really discourages me from switching over. Not that pickleball doesn't already have enough players. Hopefully recreational games are more mellow/easygoing than this.
The point of this is to take the serve out of the game. I think this gets too technical for the average or beginner player, but it doesn't stop players from doing a drop serve and not worrying about all these technicalities. All sports have moves or techniques which more advanced players will be able to execute more than a beginner.
I am all in on the drop serve. The rules for the drop serve are simple and straight forward and can be easily enforced by refs at tournaments.
100%
I like the original rules! 2 pages, now we have 200 page bibles to read like tennis, which went south with rule changes, racquets, balls, short sets .
Or just drop serve.
Agree, it should be simple. What makes it not simple is failure to enforce the rule. The most egregious example being at the pro level (which of course trickles down) where serves are now full force volleys at or above the waist line, paddle above the wrist, refs ignore it. So, we get into the complicated metrics game of control. It’s kinda like needing to go back to the original constitution to get a grip on social sanity: go back to the original pball rule book and ENFORCE serve requirements to the original purpose of the serve, initiation of the point, that’s why the two-bounce rule is there.
Plus...tennis is a real sport...
🤣🤣
Drop serve. Why aren't they allowed in PPAs as you stated??
I don’t know why. I’d be interested to find out though! If you find out let me know
When I started pickleball a year ago I got decent with the drop serve. But once I started playing at different courts (even at the same location), the inconsistencies of the ground + the holes of the ball had too much variances as to where and when you're going to strike it that at times you need to drop twice to get that proper bounce. Serves are sure weapons on the court but I wish they focused more on the important things like having at least line callers. Regardless of the opinion of the pros on having line judges, it's ridiculous that an opponent can make calls that jeopardizes one's effort which is a bigger issue. It's like being on trial where your defense is overruled by the one suing you instead of the judge (a third neutral party) making the ruling. Some pros hate line judges until they face Salome.
Well said. Continuing to have players call lines at the highest level is bewildering given the rulebook tinkering over the last few years.
That's why they eliminated lets in college tennis. Too many guys getting aced and calling let. Low integrity
I know the ground will be different everywhere but it’s not so different that you can’t make contact with the whiffle ball. I believe in you haha!
Adding a huge layer of judgement in to the game!!
Must to complicated and will be difficult to implement consistently.
I think it’s a step in the right direction. They should just go to a drop serve. What do you think?
Drop serve only, is the way to go. No restrictions other than the actual “drop”. No complications.
I’ll go you one farther. Just require the “serve” to be an underhand toss (like a softball pitch) already! 🤣
That motion is what the original intent was and measured from. The money game changed it.@@tomchien7692
Drop serve, the rest is just to complicated and subjective.
Not allowing drop serves is just dumb
This is exactly why I started drop serving. I never wanted any drama or disagreement if my volley serve was legal or not.
A bunch of stupid rules that they enforce only once in while. Maybe the PPA should focus on getting line calls correct instead.
Maybe but I think it’s a good step forward. Ultimately the only solution rn is the drop serve. What do you think?
I like the drop serve idea, solves the problem of lifting with the volley serve. Great question is, when playing recreationally and not at the pro level, should everyone be getting mad at the guy that spins it, drop serves or side arms it? Rec play should be for fun, so I say as long as it isn't an obvious overhead tennis serve, let people serve how they like if it remotely represents a serve close to the hip. If you go pro, stick with the pro rules.
Absolutely! I am fairly new to the game and just enjoy a spirited but friendly game. All these weekly complications are going to suck the life out of a good thing
Then why have a rule book?
I agree with not being so picky about it. I’ve seen comments about arguments on the court but at amateur level I don’t see that it really matters that much. I go to have fun and get exercise.
Yeah I agree! It’s really the only solution I can think of right now
Paddle/Wrist position does not matter in drop serves according to USA pickleball rule book. You could in theory drop to your knees after dropping the ball and hit an overhead serve if the ball would bounce high enough. In my opinion making all serves a drop serve will end most of the serve disputes
Really? I didn’t know this. What rule says this? Interesting!
@@pickleballplaybook it's in the section that covers the drop serves. Rule 4.A.8.C - "the restrictions that apply to the volley serve in rule 4.A.7 do not apply to the drop serve"
🤣 I love this! I would now like to make this my signature serve.
And I just checked the rules, and it looks to me like you’re absolutely correct. I was thinking beefier that navel-level spotted to both serves, but I see now that it doesn’t. Thank you for pointing this out. :)
@@liit4m8 the issue is it's almost impossible to get a ball to bounce above your waist by dropping it in the drop serve. However, If you can get used to hitting the shin high you can get a lot of spin and wrist action once you learn the mechanics
@@2kpounders461, thanks for your response. I will keep that in mind.
They should keep the drop serve in this tournament. Drop serves were always legal. Maybe allow only drop serves.
Yeah I don’t know why they don’t have it legalized in PPA! Why do you think?
There is a problem with the drop serve too. We have some young kids and short adults, they drop the ball and drive the ball hard, many seniors are having hard time to return it. we just need to watch the side spin/bounce serve.
why is that a problem? any serve you can do those same things and they are not illegal.@@KingKangUSA
I don't know how long the drop serve has been around but it was originally for players with disabilities. In 2021 it was allowed on a trial basis and in 2022 made legal for everyone.
@@jeremypuckett3382 the ball bounce same height, tall adults have disadvantages. Some parents brought their kids and I played with young tennis players; they can hit the ball with full side drive & side snap drive.
His hipbones are extraordinarily high!
Not really. Check your own on the sides. Just inches below your rib cage.
🤣🤣
@@gabeanderson8816
I'm late to the party with this video. Sorry, that's the top of the pelvic bone. The hip bone is where your leg attaches, generally just above the level of your groin. Think hip hugger pants. This guy is wearing high-waisted pants.
@@SanityReigns-pz8qhyep, you’re right. Good clarification.
Rulebook should use actual anatomical terms. All the ref training I’ve received has referred to the iliac crest as the “top of the hip” which is confusing
West Coast Florida gets super windy on the courts regardless of changing angle because the wind angle changes so quickly. Lots of droppers switch their server when this happens.
I like playing in wind
I don´t like the drop serve for myself but these rules are getting ridiculous on the volley serves. If this new drop from the hip thing becomes a rule in non-pro play then I will be going to a drop serve. That 45 degree thing looks terribly awkward.
Yeah it’s a tough one for sure. Not fun to play against someone who cheats, but also not fun to have to keep changing the serve rules
IMO, just go to a drop serve only. It's much easier to enforce and still allows a strong server to impact the point to a degree.
I agree! It is so much easier to manage. One problem with it might be if players start slightly tossing it up. No one serve is perfect… yet!
Pickleball is already a rule-intensive sport, whether it is with regards to the NVZ faults, the base line foot fault on the serve, the service motion or the line calls. And now they are talking about the no-carry rule and a colour rule for clothes and the paddle. Even in the case of an officiated match, it is difficult for a referee (or even two referees in some cases) to enforce this farrago of rules. A referee would eyes all around his head. And let’s not forget what problems this creates for non-officiated matches, whether for competitive or social play.
One of the aspects of the game that often causes bitter arguments on court, especially at the amateur level (since there are no officials present) is the traditional service rule (or rules).
1. Contacting the ball above the waist (belly button?) : With some people, it is rather difficult to determine where is their waist (let alone their belly button or the top of their hip bone). Also, some people bend down quite far at the waist and knees when serving. So should it be their waist when standing upright, or when they are bending ? Then how can one really tell if they are following the rule ?
2. Contacting the ball with the head of the paddle above the wrist : Again, this rule causes many squabbles as to whether the head of the paddle was above or below the wrist when the ball was contacted. The server is often accused of serving "side-arm", especially when that person attempts to put right or left side spin on the ball. This happens on the forehand serve, but very often on the backhand serve.
3. Contacting the ball while making an upward motion : We used to be told to serve in a manner resembling the motion that is used in throwing a bowling ball. The service motion has evolved and this technique is no longer strictly observed. Even a slight upward motion can be used, which is difficult to determine and can cause disagreement.
Implementing the drop serve as the only serve allowed would resolve the above-mentioned issues, including the finger spin technique.
If professional players are reluctant to adopt this rule, maybe this rule could be imposed at the amateur level where there are no officials present to make a decision. For example, for amateur matches, the rules say that if, on the serve, the ball hits the top of the net and falls in the appropriate service court passed the NVZ line, the serve is considered good and play continues, whereas this rule doesn’t apply to professional matches.
Also, the rule for the drop serve should specify that the ball must be dropped from above the shoulder to make sure that the serve is not imparting downward force on the ball. Many players using this serving technique drop their hand with the ball, but claim that they are not putting downward force on the ball.
Love your perspective. I don’t think the rule is near perfect but it’s a step in the right direction
A lot of players crouch down quite a bit before releasing the ball then use the upward (and forward) momentum before contacting the ball at the top of their extension. When crouched the arm will be much higher than 45 degrees… even close to horizontal. Then, as you stand up during the swing the ball contact will be at or below the hip level. I understand that 45 degree analogy if you start standing erect.
Good point! I think if they’re going to crouch, their serve will be a lot less powerful because they are going to have to swing extremely quickly to get it before it hits the ground. This will not allow them to do a full coil and uncoil as they hit through the ball. What do you think?
@@pickleballplaybook the example at the end of the video also highlights how subtle the "toss" is... in regular speed it doesn't look like there is any upward motion but when you slow it down it shows the ball moving upward slightly. I suspect that when it comes to the pros they will "release" around waist-height but perhaps the ball will have a slight upward trajectory (barely perceptible to the human eye). This also "hangs" the ball for a short time in the air allowing more time for the swing and subsequent followthrough. While I agree that a bounce serve is probably the easiest to rule on... I absolutely love the volley serve which eliminates a few elements like wind and inconsistent bounces (small inconsistencies in the court surface, ball bounces on a hole, debris on the court).
2025, they'll restrict bending the knee at any point on the serve.
Questions for clarification: What was the issue with you raising the ball right as you served? Was he calling it over the waist or was he calling it a toss? If it's over the hips then just start lower. If he's calling it a toss, then how can it be a toss if you are still holding it? It only matters what the ball does after you let go, correct?
In the clay shooting sport of FITASC, shooters are required to have a line embroidered or marked on their garment because the gun butt stock must remain below that line until after the clay target is thrown. I wonder how long it will be before you have to have a line on your shirt to indicate your waist in pickleball? I'm new to the sport, and have played in no tournaments, but it seems boring to remove all of the variety/fun out of the serve.
You have to drop it. So that slight rise means I’m not dropping, I’m tossing. Does that make sense?
@@pickleballplaybook I get what they are saying, but to my opinion it doesn't matter what it does while it's still in your hand as long as it doesn't go up any once it leaves your hand.
This seems to be a ridiculous and unnecessary rule that has an inconsequential impact on a serve. Someone must need to feel important.
Agreed!
The drop serve is and has been part of the game and with the current rules, makes the most sense, esp. if players are having issues with the rules of serving. They at least get that if they are being called out for breaking said rules. I've been working on my my drop volley serve and use both actually depending on factors per match.
100% with you!
Does anyone have actual Player statistics on Aces per game? Versus other sports with Serves? I rarely get Aces in Pickleball compared to how many I get in Volleyball and Tennis.
No one does! Crazy right?
I can see this in officiated game, but not in rec games. I played a guy who was side arming his serve, and told him that his serve was illegal, and he denied what i said and said that his serve was totally legal. The next few times he served more underhand and his serve was so much slower.
Interesting 🧐
@@pickleballplaybook so i guess like some of the other people who commented, the drop serve would solve all
Great video. Most people I speak with, just allow a drop serve only. Towards the end of the video you asked the ref if he'd call your serve and he said "probably" not. Probably??????? Just more confusion.
Yeah that’s the way to go
I've been playing less that a year but I noticed right away all the people who serve illegally. They are too close to call for the most part. When called out, they always say "I'm swinging up!" and yeah, 1 degree up is up, I guess. Nobody wants to talk about their paddle being below their wrist though.
I've never heard the complaint about the wind and the drop serve and never really had a problem with the drop serve in windy/gusty conditions. I think you automatically compensate after a drop or two. The complaint I have heard about going to the drop serve is that the volley serve has been around since the beginning of pickleball and players have worked on perfecting their volley serve over the years. That is no doubt true, but it doesn't change the fact that the existing volley serve rules are impossible to enforce. I suspect those that will complain the loudest are the ones that have perfected a border line serve that is probably illegal but too close to call.
Mostly what this change does is move the point of contact lower. The other rules are still in effect, so you are going to have the same problem with people hitting a side-arm serve. You may not see it at first, but given enough time, players will figure it out.
The drop serve is the ultimate answer.
or the top of the paddle being above the wrist!!
Yeah that’s a great argument for the drop serve!
If the rule states that the ball cannot be struck above your hip when you are standing upright, then if they bend their knees quite a bit and get low to the ground, then they should be able to have a higher degree than 45, right ?
Correct!
Question, can I drop the ball from shoulder height and then hit the ball on waist height for the serve?
Not for this tournament! Must be dropped below the top of the hip
@@pickleballplaybook oh so any other tournaments other than this one doesn’t apply to the rules?
Correct!
the only rule for the drop serve which I have read in rec play, is that you drop the ball not toss it not bounce it. The ball does not bounce above the waist, therefore you don't have to worry about when where you contact the ball. From my last reading of the rule book it said something like drop serve =you have to drop the ball and NO OTHER RULES apply.
Can we first establish the HIPS AND WAIST the band around his body is at HIS waist, hips are the sides of your legs not at your waist at all. Hips around would include your butt, waist is in naval area above the hips where a belt would ideally go. ESTABLISH THAT first then decide where ball hand arms should be
💯
Consider. In tennis ground strokes are amazing if hit 90-95 mph. Serves can be up to 145 mph. It’s all in the mechanics. A pickleball serve underhand is world class if 60-65 mph. What is the goal here? Maybe just toss the ball into play overhand. This is getting ridiculous
The fences are way to close to do an overhead serve. I could easily hit the side fence every serve I do.
Also this would make pickleball less inclusive and not as many people would play. Hence why there is more people that play pickleball than any other sport on the planet! What are your thoughts?
I’m not suggesting overhead serves. I think pickleball was designed to disadvantage the server. Tennis is opposite. The serve has the advantage. If pickleball wants to further disadvantage the serve maybe go to a ping pong serve. It must bounce on server’s side then in opponent’s serve box. I’m being facetious but it would certainly negate the serve.
This is a stupid rule. Micromanaging like the NFL.
Yes, but they’re definitely headed in the right direction. I think the only fair thing to do is just take it to the drop serve. What do you think?
@@pickleballplaybookI think not.
Definitely think they should allow drop serve. Wind argument is weak. If the wind is gusting or strong, it would still effect the ball weather it's a drop serve or volley serve. Drop serve is easy to rule on because, as you said, no way for it to bounce too high. Surprised they're not allowing it.
Interesting
Thanks for these update. Hey what mic are you using. Thanks.
Rode wireless go II! Let me know if you have any other questions.
To those that love the drop serve:
***** This is not the "easy answer" you think it is. *****
I regularly play with players that don't do a clean drop - they add energy and even obvious (but not crazy) spin. They are astonished. They CAN'T do it right even when I explain. Just like some people violate the nvz and don't believe it when you tell them.
Good point. I think since it has to hit the ground, any spin they apply is to their detriment cause it will give them an inconsistent bounce. Thoughts?
@@pickleballplaybook could be. but my point was there are already plenty of clear violations (and subtle edge cases) with the new drop serve.
Looks like I'll have to figure out and fix my serve. My regular coach says my serve is fine. I went to a new location to play and was told that my serve was illegal. I'm pretty new to pickleball (about 3.5 months), but I do understand the strategies. I think the drop serve should be an option in all applications.
Yeah it will be interesting to see what happens!
There’s a chance that this isn’t adopted though. Ben Johns had two pretty arbitrary faults called against him over the weekend
the drop serve is the ONLY way to eliminate all the drama of the serve...Tyson is probably the biggest offender but others are getting close to the line...I am a volley server but I am sure I can change...when I first started, other players say I had a border line illegal serve ( more level with navel) so I changed...that was over a year ago and i never even notice the subtle change...the first couple of serves were a learning curve but it is 2nd nature after a few games just like a drop serve will be for me...i may even try a few tomorrow to see the difference
100. I completely agree
Actually, “only way” is to require the “serve” to be an underhand toss (like a softball pitch). 🤣
I agree that making the drop serve the only legal serving option is the best way to go. I don’t agree that Tyson’s serves are illegal. I have looked at his serves frame by frame and I think that they are just barely legal, which is the same thing as completely legal. The only thing that is questionable is whether he contacts the ball below the waist. Unfortunately “waist” is never precisely defined in the official rules, so no one can really call him on this because in pickleball we tend to only call an infraction if there is no doubt on the call. Also, I have not seen “waist” defined in the rules. Outside the rules, I think that it is considered to be the level of the navel, but until the rules require us to play with the navel exposed (unlikely to say the least), there is no way to fairly enforce this rule.
Is it true that on a volley serve now you can toss the ball upwards before making contact?
Only for that tournament that happened this past weekend. Watch from 00:00 to 00:59
@@pickleballplaybookdid he mean CANT toss the serve? I’m under the impression that a slight toss on the volley serve is legal so long as all contact is below hips with upward swing which is angled lower then the wrist. Can you confirm? Reason I ask is because someone called me on a slight toss to my volley serve today telling me it was illegal and I don’t believe it is if all other contact requirements mentioned are met. Thank you!
This is why tennis is easier "rules wise" This is over complicated. "Tennis, hit the ball out of the air, behind the line in each of your service box's starting to the right and get the ball into the opposite service box over the net, to your opponent int'l you reach 4 points or win by 2 .Also has to touch inside or on the line in the opponents service box opposite of you or its a fault, try one ,more time".
My rebuttal for Pickle ball is to keep it simple and fair for everyone. To do that make it so you have to make contact at or under the tennis, oh i mean pickle balls net at the highest point. This removes advantages of taller people who have higher hips because this sport, i mean rule is unfair for short people.
Very true! Pickleball is still in its infancy and has to pin down some rules. This definitely isn’t the solution but it’s a step in the right direction I believe. What do you think?
Omigosh! Just require the “serve” to be an underhand toss (like a softball pitch) already!
Exactly. So many are serving sidearm. Just have hand under the ball. A pitcher in softball cannot serve sidearm, That is illegal. Have hand under ball on release, same as softball.
@@CreightonOls I don't think ppl who gripe about "too many" rules (esp. for serves) realize that the *point* of serves is not to ace most of the time (which would turn paddle / racket sports into mostly battles of serves which almost noone would want to play / watch). The *point* is to help ensure that both: a) most serves *and* b) most *returns* of most serves are returnable so that each side has a likely chance to return a ball to get a rally going. Unlike tennis, pb rules allow serves to land near the baseline, that plus the relative ease of landing a serve near the baseline even with an underhand softball pitch like toss is plenty to ensure that the returns of those serves are returnable.
Maybe but I think it’s a good step forward. Ultimately the only solution rn is the drop serve. What do you think?
Why don't they simply make the rule that the ball can not be higher than the net when hit during the serve. This removes the size of the server as being a factor and is universally consistent.
I like it!
It is also possible for a server's body to bend at the waist: 90 degree angle can be legal.
Interesting Richard. I haven’t thought of that
So many rules I can’t keep up. I was told yesterday that I was doing a fault serve because I was holding the ball palms up vs palms down. I am short so my serve is just by my navel area. Am I at fault?
Haha remain calm! Thats completely legal to do unless you’re a pro at the PPA. Which you’re not, and neither are 99.99% of pickleball players haha
There are things you can do with a drop/bounce serve that will make it superior and faster than any other serve.
My question/comment is, what difference does it make what you do with your arm AFTER you have dropped the ball away from your hand???? I can understand this caveat if this stipulation applied when the ball is still in your hand. Unless you are a magician, you can't affect the ball's drop after you have released it.
It’s not that my arm is lifting after I drop, it’s that it lifts as you drop. This is because if I don’t have some lift the ball will hit the ground before I have time to swing at it. Does that help?
I'm sorry to say, but IMO, this serve rule proposal is silly at best! What is the advantage of this serve rule change? I can't see any difference and/or advantage that one will have by serving above or below the waistline! Pickleball is a fun game, but if you guys are going to make it more complicated with goofy rules, then it will no longer be fun! If you want to apply this rule at tournaments, then fine! But, if you're going to make this rule standard for everyone who plays (even just for fun,) then you'll see more division and arguments between players! Please take it easy with all the new rules! Let's keep the game fun and easy to play for everyone!
It’s silly for sure haha. Just go to a drop serve!
Question. If i put a ball away and it has bounced twice and then i fall or step into. Kitchen? What is ruling ?
All about momentum. If you fall even after the point is dead you get a fault called. Unless of course you step in on purpose and have full control of yourself!
@@pickleballplaybook for real? Is that offical? If the ball bounces 2 isnt the point over? Like in tennis. I can touch the net , fall over the net as long as the ball has bounced twice?
Momentum is all that matters
I have no idea about this. I'm a tennis player. You can literally do whatever you want on the serve as long as it doesn't bounce. I say do whatever you want on the serve as long as it does bounce in pickleball. Makes things much simpler for all involved.
Yeah pickleball is very different! Gotta have some type of restriction on serve or it ends up just being aces every serve
These kind of rules do NOT make sense for few reasons I could think of listed below:
Even for a trained referee, it is tough to say if 42, 43 or 44 degrees are legal and if 46, 47, 48 or 49 are legal. I mean even for a trained referee, it is tough to measure degrees.
This gets even more absurd at the recreational level and other local tournaments !
I think rules should be made in such a way that they are easier to enforce, not have a subjective element to the. If rules are subjective, then by the same token, how can they be considered a rule ?
Exactly! Just go to a drop serve
Have not tried with pickleball ball but in windy conditions, putting a slight rotation on the ball will diminish the wind effect.
Sorry, but imparting spin on the ball prior to a serve is illegal.
Winds not a big deal when serving. Only on every other shot
I think we should switch to drop server only
100! Why do you think?
I think the drop serve should be called a "bounce serve" since both current drop and volley serves are technical dropped.
But you can’t bounce it like you do a tennis ball. I did that once in a tournament without thinking & it was a fault. ( longtime tennis player)
It's not a 'bounce' serve. You can't propel it. You can only drop it which happens to allow it to bounce. People already get very confused by the word 'bounce' being incorrectly referenced.
@MrCho14 it doesn't need to be propelled to bounce. Gravity does all the work. Drop a pickleball from waist level onto a pickleball court and it will bounce even without being manually propelled
Haha this is so true! The new serve is really a serve
I just want to know how you play indoor pickleball on that court with the sideline right next to the wall...
You don’t. Such a waste of a court😂 you can only film on it
I agree that the drop serve is probably the fairest and most competitive.
Absolutely! What makes you say that though?
I think the drop serve only fixes more problems than it creates and is the best way to go. Also, all illegal serves should cause a penalty with no re-does.
Yes! That’s exactly what I think. Are you watching the masters this weekend?
@@pickleballplaybook Thanks, I'm a football guy so playoffs first lol.
This seems to be indicative of a sport going through growing pains. I'm not sure the best people are in place right now at the PPA. The fact that they
are still toying around with the serve at this point, with rules that will greatly burden referees and add controvercy for fault calls, is absurd. Just make it a drop serve and be done with it. This sport could grow to a new level if the right people are making the right moves. This is not a move in the right direction.
Exactly!
Drop serve is the way to go. It’s the only way to keep people from having to argue about it or feel cheated.
I completely agree. Only way to keep it fair. People complain that the drop serve is too difficult in the wind though… those are all low level players that say that. So I think at lower levels you can do either but at higher levels it should be drop only. Thoughts?
If wind is a problem, drop serve it from a few inches , that's what I do. My serve is considered very good btw.
Great point! I’m tired of hearing people complain about the wind and a drop serve. Thats part of the game. What do you think?
With a little wind, the drop serve can be absolutely deadly.
I'm not sure why I focused on the drop serve, but I did.
The way I serve, I can hit a very spinning shot that will move 3 feet laterally as it curves over and low to the net. I can vary how much power I can put behind it to a degree. So I never really hit it the same twice. I'll push it deep, drop it short, or make it more of a power shot here and there. All with the exact same mechanics so I can disguise what serve I'm hitting quite easily. If there is wind in my face, this serve is lethal..
I can push it deep, which is my standard serve. It's not particularly hard to return, but you have to respect it, as the extreme movement and skip it takes on the bounce can very easily wind up in disaster for the returning player if they try "counter spin", or some fancy wrist shot with it. Its ofen it long or in the net if they don't just push it back.
When I play new guys(even skilled ones), I'll sneak a few points if they aren't used to it. They will try something other than a vanilla return and will hit it out or in the net. But eventually, they get used to it.
It tends to provoke a very predictable 2nd shot, which is why I have been told many times it's a really good serve. It's not particularly hot, but it is tricky enough that you just want to get it back over. So, we tend to have an easier 3rd shot.
If there is wind in my face, I can increase the spin and decrease the power. This causes it to fly over the net, bounce short, and literally start rolling sideways. It's lethal. The wind scrubs enough speed off that it just dies when it hits. If the opposing team starts cheating up, I'll hit it deep! It's very effective.
If there is a significant wind in my face, I can easily run off 4-5 or more points a serving session.
If the wind is to your back, it's not particularly helpful, but if it's in your face, or one side - wow..
Now its not as sexy as a poweful volley serve, but I use it because i have learned to be very consistent with it, and I'm more interested in setting up the 3rd shot than scoring aces. The drop serve allows me to do that very well.
I don't think people understand the potential of the drop serve.
Nothing makes a sport more popular to the masses than unnecessarily complicated rules that are literally impossible to monitor and enforce at the amateur level where there's no umpire. Ah yes, declaring a lot of recently purchased expensive equipment by major brands illegal is also a great way to boost a sports popularity!
Good point!
The current rules for the volley serve are too complicated and difficult to enforce. So this new test rule further complicates it to make contact height more easily enforceable but adds yet another difficult aspect to enforce. THIS IS NOT PROGRESS.
The rules on the volley serve and its enforcement are irredeemable. Several other pros like Zane Navratil have said to just standardize on the drop (bounce) serve. I don't see a better solution.
Maybe but I think it’s a good step forward. Ultimately the only solution rn is the drop serve. What do you think?
For recreational players we play with warped pickleballs an imperfect courts so dropping the ball becomes an adventure. Volley serves solve that problem.
Drop serve only everywhere. It solves all the close infractions. Such an easy fix. Additionally, they should implement Rally scoring right now. I was a badminton player when we had side out scoring. I didn't think I would ever get used to Rally scoring. I thought Rally scoring changed the game forever. I was stupid. I remember the Nationals with people playing at 2:00 am and back on court at 8:00 am. Stupid!!! All larger Tournaments should go to "Rally period. Just think, being able to arrive at the court and playing close to when it is scheduled? Who doesn't want that.
I half agree. Drop serve all the way. Rally scoring optional
They should implement tennis scoring. & play a set to determine the match, or 2 out of 3 tie-breakers.
That could be fun!
Very well done video. You have a talent for getting to the point and talking about only the details that matter
I appreciate that a ton! More to come ❤️
I agree that the simplest solution is universal adoption of the drop serve, @ ALL LEVELS. The challenge to this fix is, I fear, the Olympics. Going to the drop serve would be the equivalent of mandating no overhead serves in tennis, a decidedly amateurish adoption. It seems that the Olympics Poobahs are more inclined to admit racquet/paddle sports that emphasize aggression from the outset of the game (emotionalism overrules intellectualism). Of course, flag football has been admitted, not the NFL (wait, there’ll be 6’ 8”, 380# O&D linemen in Olympic flag football!). The legalization of the drop serve is, I think, an attempt to encourage a return to the original purpose of the pball serve: point initiation follow by a two-bounce return. At THAT POINT, it’s equal GAME ON. I do think that it’d be nice to get back to that, especially below the pro level. The Olympics quit being an amateur event 3 decades ago, so it’s not likely that any pball levels below pro will be in the Olympics. Pros do need to play to pro-level (& preferred Olympic-level) rules, so the volley serve could be authorized as low as the 5-level, or just restricted to the pro level.
Tennis (and PB) player here.
As undeniably observable in the video, the arm is "rising" BEFORE release of the ball, NOT afterwards while hitting the ball.
When serving from open stance as demonstrated in the video, the tossing ball arm is "rising" because the ball hand is reaching way over to the opposite side of the body where the hitting zone is located.
Instead, close the stance and bend forward at the waist for numerouse significant advantages:
- the tossing arm is now almost vertical and stationary for very consistent release of the ball.
- much simpler biomechanics (fewer moving parts) for increased consistency and accuracy.
- controlled back to forward body weight transfer for increased power WITH accuracy.
In general, whenever setting up to hit a groundstroke, use closed stance as much as possible.
I too am a tennis and PB player.
Pickleball is a bit different with ground strokes. You actually want to keep an open stance as much as possible so you’re facing the court. You’re more like a goalie in Pickleball. The #1 player in the world just changed his serve to open stance (Ben John’s).
Interestingly enough when my arm rose the ref said that he saw it slightly rise but wouldn’t call it. Definitely a difficult thing to monitor as a ref.
@pickleballplaybook
Open stance "goaltending" at the kitchen where the exchanges are fast is certainly correct. Crabbing in open stance provides mobility.
As for groundstrokes, as clearly observable in many recent videos, when there is plenty of time to correctly set up for the shot, BJ, ALW, etc, hit with varying amounts of closed stances.
They should go to the drop serve only. The lift of the ball and a 45 degree arm angle are pretty judgmental and will have the same issues we have with NFL refs.
Exactly!
Not to mention if someone has unusually short or long arms. Huge advantage for short and disadvantage for long.
We will have some at our club using cell phone video and cameras to view "like the pro's." How about teaching people to release and bounce from day 1 on serves, and then the returner figures out what to do!
I don’t quite understand what you’re saying. Can you explain?
There going to screw this game up just like they have with golf, can,t stop meddling with it, it,s tedious , sit down once and for all and get everything fixed and then leave it at that..
Maybe but I think it’s a good step forward. Ultimately the only solution rn is the drop serve. What do you think?
+1 on drop serve only - as i understand it the whole point of the serve in pickleball being slowed down is to basically guarantee a rally - so lets just have a simple to enforce rule
Exactly!
Paddle above wrist is a very common error at the recreational level. I support a mandatory drop serve.
Yeah it is. I see it ALL the time!
Drop Serve. A simple solution that is fair or equal for everyone...you can't cheat on this unless you spin it or toss it up, both easy to see by the Ref or your opponent. The excuse not to allow it because the wind can blow it is silly since the wind can blow any shot any time and we all adjust our shots based on the wind.
Exactly!
Excellent video man! Thank you. And I agree with most of the others, it’s absolutely stupid. How are the rules are going. When I took my first lessons, he went over the two different serve types, and I remember thinking what the heck? Just make it a drop serve for everybody, for crying out loud…
I appreciate the love! Drop serve only!
oh and one other thing, while I'm not a scientist, I know any object falls at a rate of 32 ft per second per second. Therefore, the determining factor on what height the ball has fallen to is not the angle of the arm, its the timing of backswing. A player with longer backswing takes longer to contact the ball therefore contacting it lower even when dropped from same height as playing with shorter quicker backswing.
With a stopwatch and a yardstick, you could fix your misperception with a rather trivial investment of your own grey matter.
You've quoted the downward acceleration at sea level on planet Earth. Newton taught us that:
d = v0 * t + 1/2 * a * t^2
With v0=0 for a motionless drop, a=9.81 m/s^2, and some rearrangement you get:
t = sqrt(d) / sqrt(9.81/2)
Restated in English, time (seconds) is linearly proportional to the square root of distance fallen (meters).
I'm 20% taller than a woman who is 5'3" but I only get about 10% longer to hit the ball.
This because sqrt(1.2) approximately equals 1.1.
This doesn't matter much physically, because it's the same formula for acceleration of my backswing. My backswing is also 20% further, but it only takes 10% longer to complete at the same paddle acceleration. This cancels out physically, but not cognitively. I still have longer to plan it out. But my nerves are 20% longer and it really does take 20% longer for my nerve impulses to travel to my muscles and the sensory signal to travel back. This degrades coordination in taller people. But the paddle weighs less compared to my body mass, so it takes less relative effort to accelerate the paddle at the same rate, which boosts control, partially cancelling out the long nerve path.
My high torso mass relative to my limbs helps to stabilize my swing. But it also makes running expensive and you have a lower oxygen intake to body mass ratio (hence you rarely see Shaq on the Tour de France). But maybe you can get away with running a bit less, because you can reach more without moving your feet.
Except your partner is short and doesn't have the wheels to run back to defend the lob, so you end up defending the deep lob on your partner's side. You've got sasquatch legs, so no problem running back to your own diagonal corner to cover a short return when your partner can't be bothered to switch. Well, so much for standing around in one place using your long arms.
Finally, I can reach a full foot deeper into the kitchen when I crouch so that my shoulder is at net height. When I stand erect, it's a 45 degree downward arm angle to place my paddle at net height, which cancels out most of my reach advantage. To get my shoulder to net height requires almost a 90 degree knee bend. Hard to run in a 90 degree knee bend. Up elevator, run to new place, down elevator. I can run fast or I can reach deep into the kitchen, but only with an elevator in between. The elevator delay is pretty significant in a fast exchange. When I don't crouch, my oblique line of sight to balls coming horizontal over the net with barely any clearance is terrible for assessing details of ball path, especially spin.
There are a lot of tradeoffs against scale if you stop to think long enough.
The first step on a long journey is stopping to think once.
Interesting!!!
Gusty wind is likely more of a problem than constant wind because you can't predict what will happen over the time the ball is dropped and then bounces up. This is less of an issue with a volley serve where there is very little time between the ball release and paddle impact.
Even so. It takes very minimal hand eye coordination to hit the ball. That being said, I can see how gusty wind would be a much bigger issue
For a true "drop serve" that is true, but the rule being talked about here is not THAT drop serve.
I play on one surface, a tennis court with PB lines, where the camber for water runoff is excessive. The worst corner messes with my bounce serve something fierce, as the ball kicks to the side after the bounce, and not so consistently, either. Ball after ball goes out by six inches to the side if I don't nerf my standard mechanics. At the pro level, I suspect this is a variable they don't need.
That wall being so close to the court makes me feel claustrophobic
Same!!!
I am confused. if you cant let your arm raise, how do you throw the ball in the air
You have to drop it. Does that make sense?
This is a fun game... keep it that way by not having too many rules. Just do the drop serve to keep it simple.
Exactly!
I would think if palm is down, it should be a good serve
Maybe but I think it’s a good step forward. Ultimately the only solution rn is the drop serve. What do you think?
His drop serves near the end were illegal. Paddle was above wrist at contact and he was hitting over the ball.
Not illegal according to the head ref. He said I have the best serve he’s ever seen
The whole side of that court is like 2 inches off that wall
Yeah it was poor planning! Haha
Do people really play on that court with the wall 3" from the line?
I was thinking the same thing! That’s not a court I’d play on.
Ridiculous right?? Haha
As a new player this is a huge red flag. How has this not been sorted out?
Yes but it’s a step in the right direction. I think it should be drop serve only. What do you think is the solution?
The drop serve is less powerful looking serve . It’s also hard to tell if the paddle head is lower than the hand at that speed !
It has to be in order for it to go over the net. I explain this in the video. Hopefully that helps!
So its August 2024 now, was this implemented?
It was! It’s actually going really well
@@pickleballplaybook not for me! 🤣😂
3:45 you still raise your arm an inch or two!!! This is a stupid rule -_-. The rule that you can't hit above the naval is ridiculous and unfair as well since people have different heights. So shorter people have their disadvantages exaggerated.
I know, isnt that crazy!!
KISS - "Keep It Simple...." - Do the Drop Serve. Thumbs Up For The Drop Serve.
Haha I love it. 👍👍👍
I only do a drop serve.
Maybe but I think it’s a good step forward. Ultimately the only solution rn is the drop serve. What do you think?
From a referee's perspective, this is a PIA....adding more "hair-splitting" rules that really don't make that much difference is mentally exhausting when having to watch for these types of things in all day, all weekend tournament.
Yes, but they’re definitely headed in the right direction. I think the only fair thing to do is just take it to the drop serve. What do you think?
Another issue with new volley serve rules is that the body naturally ticks upward when you start motion for serving underhand. This natural rotation brings the drop hand (non-paddle hand) upwards. It's a natural motion, so it's going to be extremely difficult to judge these serves. Which then would most likely cause undue focus on the serve, which might lead to additional distraction for the referees. 🤷♂
Maybe but I think it’s a good step forward. Ultimately the only solution rn is the drop serve. What do you think?
Great Job Austin, on getting full up facts on this subject!!
I appreciate that! What’s your name?
Patrick@@pickleballplaybook
After watching this weekend there doesn’t seem to be a big issue with this. Ben was called a couple of times. The PPA never allows the drop serve. PPA should just follow USAP Rules period.
There’s a huge issue! This has been very helpful to have this
Drop serve solves almost all of your problems. I use it regularly, including on windy days. Even on windy days, it is way easier to hit than a volley serve. Some of the people I play with give the ball a slight toss on a drop serve, making it illegal, but I never call it unless it is really egregious. I figure that a slight toss gives no meaningful advantage over just dropping the ball, so it is not a problem for me to just let it go.
Yeah it sure does. Just sucks when the wind is blowing
They should serve overhead like in tennis, but they have to serve it into the kitchen. 😊 probably really difficult.
Haha yeah that’s be interesting. Since the fences are so close, you could pretty easily hit the side fence with your overhead serve.
When that happens, basketball players will start to rule Pickelball.
When some of my opponents miss their return, it will be because my arm was raising as I released the ball. Of course, they are watching for any tiny infraction rather than the ball being served. I'd like to keep the drop serve.
Interesting!
What problem does this solve?
Many pros were serving at chest height. This is an attempt to get their serves lower
@@pickleballplaybook Can’t they tell a chest, he serve by looking?
Yes but then they’re only calling it 50% of the time. If you go lower as the standard then they’ll still go above that but you can monitor it much more and it is much below the chest even when it’s “high”
I think calling the slight natural up movement when you rotate is a bit much. We don't want robotic serves.
Yeah 👍 where is the line though?
should keep drop serve...
Why’s that?
Drop server should be only server allowed but if powers that be aren't going to do that I guess what the PPA is doing solves the HUGE problem with illegal servers. The biggest issue with this change is, if implemented as the rule for volley serves as a USAP rule in the future, is that in non-officiated matches the opponent can't call illegal serves so you'll still have people dropping it from above the hip or tossing it.
Yeah I guess we will see what the rule ends up being! The drip serve just makes sense to me
Remove volley serve and limit the drop height as the waist then it will be much simpler. The ref only needs to monitor the drop height.
Yes!
I have been saying this for a while-palm facing down released no higher than waist level is how the volley serve should be ruled. It is easier for a referee to judge and as a player really not that hard to make this adjustment. To many uncontrollable variables with a drop serve for me (wind, surface, type of ball, player height, etc.), however both should still be the players option.
But what if there are no refs? What if it’s just rec? Who will monitor?
99% of the players, me included, slightly toss the ball upwards to sync with the natural follow-up motion to extend the torque on the body. Good luck to penalize on that. Second, I like to step in the ball and trust me, that adds 20% more power to the shots, I am aceing easily most of the 3.0 players. Try to penalize that one as well. They need to stop crafting new rules on the serves, especially because 99% of the people don't play in official tournaments, the only rule should be not to add pre-spin, the height will always be something questionable. I guarantee Johns hits some serves above his waist, if not most of them.
Good stuff!
Just go with the rules we have had for years. The more space there is between the paddle and ball allows for the accuracy to go down. I want to hit specific spots/areas with the highest accuracy.
The problem is that the rules we have had for years are being abused.