25 years ago I found really by accident that I would do a first hone with a very rough hone. Then I saw the error that a guy that worked for me made. I went back with a hone that was very, very fine. After that engine was broken in on my dyno I noticed that everything ran better and different, plus it made more power that when we first built the engine by about 40 Lb/Ft and 30 HP. I attributed to better ring sealing because I did such a fine final hone. What I came to realize was that what I really did was leave the grooves deeper in the cross hatch and that was when I first figured out that the oil film on the cylinder wall was critical in getting a good seal. Great to see a machine like this today that can provide more accurate results. Thanks Lake...
Love this Info !!! This kind of stuff reminds me of hanging around a friends Engine Shop in the 80's. We called him "The Master of going Faster". He had a small block all assembled ready for a team to pick up , A salesmen comes in with a Tool for a smooth final finish on the bores. He used a similar honing tool to a -- Sunnen CK-10. Salesman paid for all Gaskets and Labor to try new finish tool (as I remember it wrapped around stones - then you did your finish pattern with this on) Leaked Down Engine Ready to go then took it apart to Update Finish Pattern , then reassemble. If my memory is correct Leak Down Dropped in the area of 10 to 15 percent. Needless to say he was sold on using this on every block from that day forward. ( FORD contacted him and other small engine shops to build a test mule 2.3 4 cylinder, then compared them. His Engine had Highest HP and Torque and Lowest BSFC to achieve those numbers. Also ran longer than all the other test mules engines during those abuse sessions) Keep up the great info !!!
Hi Lake, big fan of your Dad, and you now as well. Very informative videos, appreciate you showing theory and practice applied to real world applications and the cause and effect of these. I am interested in tribology, worked as a Mechanical Development Engineer including plateau honing of cylinder bores and liners with a well known Diesel engine designer and manufacturer Mr. Mark Malburg used to be employed with. Sat through some of his seminars, he is a genius at surface texture measurement and software design to accurately measure plateau honed surfaces like cylinder bores among other applications. Keep up the great work.
An acquaintance of mine ran a Sportsman class stockcar in the 90's. He told me Amsoil was the only oil that allowed him to see the crosshatchs at the end of the racing season. I know there's a lot of other variables that go into that, but I've been using Amsoil ever since in everything I own from my grass trimmer to my 4x4.
I believe, I could be mistaken but most car manufacturers actually say to not use amsoil. Again, I could be mistaken but I’m pretty sure they say amsoil will void the warranty on your vehicle. I use eneos oil in all of my cars. I love that stuff. I swear to god it looks and feels like the cleanest oil on earth. It cost about the same as amsoil but worth it. Eneos is japans largest motor oil company and we all know how long Japanese cars last. That’s proof enough for me.
@@I_will_show_you_monkey I'll check that oil out. I've heard the name, but never looked into it. Car manufacturers say that about all oil. It's a marketing tool they use to sell more of their own oil. It's against the law in North America to void a warranty over oil, brake pads/rotors, and other routine maintenance parts. Lawn mower, ATV, Farm tractor, even chainsaw companies try and tell you you'll void warranty if you don't use their oil. Total B.S.
How would you work out that the cross hatch should be the same top to bottom when cylinder pressure, temp, speed etc are different from tdc to bdc and the volume of oil?
We all know what happens when the cyl walls become polished but would it be wise to torque plate the block deck for a more precise bore ? Tolerances change when head bolts are torqued ! I know oldsmoble did this in the 60's and 70's
Some high-performance engines use laser-etched microstructures on the cylinder walls or piston rings. What are your thoughts on that vs these honing techniques, and do you provide these kinds of products?
I watch another channel Powell Machine and he does try and get good numbers, but nothing like what you get here with the Rottler and I asked him in the comments would he consider getting a Rottler and he said When I have an extra $180k. So Rottler or whoever else, you need to do better. The first company that can bring this tech to the normal machine shop will be very successful. Because while you know what’s best, if no one or few can replicate it, then what good is it? I challenge all companies out there to create a machine that can do this for under $40-50k.
Still crazy! Small shops can't afford that. You couldn't make that money back in with a 30yr mortgage! I used a Sunnen portable hone for years and a plateau brush afterwards.NEVER had a problem! And never left more than .002 after boring. Van Norman 777 Left silk smooth surface easy to hone . Don't know what's the big fuss about honing. Cleaning and basics is more important. Most guys first engines blow up because they hit the crank with the rod bolts. And put the pistons in the engine on the stand like it's in the car. Turn the deck towards you when installing pistons. Squatting underneath the engine is working like a schmuck.
Powell showed me his numbers on the first video of his that I watched. I think I’ve watched every Lake Speed honing video and I haven’t seen any numbers yet. Nor does he say what they are trying to hit. I don’t know how they can talk so much and never say or show me anything. Now he says go to size and plateau. Well I’ve been doing that for 10 years. It’s the only way I can get the valleys deep enough to have something left after the plateau. He has Greg Anderson on there. Do you think he gave us some numbers to shoot for? No. I don’t know how I could get less information.
Dear Lake Speed Jr., your videos are very inspirational and fun to watch! I have a question where you may be the right person to answer. I‘m a BMW enthusiast and they have switched from bucket cam followers to roller finger follower style in the last decades. The finger follower engines I have seen typically experience a lot of wear on the valve guides. They wear out like an oval trumpet shape, if that makes sense. My question is, how can I improve longevity of bronze valve guides? Do you have a recommendation on how to resurface the valve stems and what Ra values etc. to aim for? Does DLC /TIN coating help? I am looking very much forward to your reply
I haven't worked with or looked at those engines, but I know some engines wear guides because of misalignment (like some LS and their rockers). Some wear due to what you're pointing at, guide material isn't working with the surface treatment (or lack thereof), but it seems like a strange thing for a manufacturer to get wrong (though it's happened before).
@@PSA78 I feel like this issue isn’t very well known in the BMW community, since it’s somewhat of a newer phenomenon (almost all BMW engines used bucket type lifters until around 2006 and there was absolutely 0 wear on valve guides or stems until then). Also properly diagnosing valve stem wear and quantifying it with a bore gauge etc. is a rather involved process for most shops or hobbyists. BMW addressed this issue with chrome nitride coatings on the valve stems from around 2012-2013, but I feel like there’s still a lot of room for improvement. Seeing the great results in these videos regarding honing, rings and piston technology got me thinking if the surface treatment for valves could be optimized (worn out valve stems will not only kill your guide seals and have the engine burn oil, it will also lower compression, wear out the seats and kill power end efficiency).
I work as an engine machinist. I guess this is 'interesting' to the average guy that tinkers with engines occasionally, but in reality, they will never have an influence on the outcome of this work. What I don't like is when people drop off engine components to have them machined or refinished and they tell me how to do my job, which I have been doing since 1987,based on what they have watched on TH-cam. It's amusing at first, but lately it's been getting ridiculous.
Do you look up the specifications and tolerances of the engines you machine? Some people have specific requirements for machining, for example you can't shave the head more than x amount or you start changing the quench which requires more machining. Or engines with timing chains have their timing altered by decking both head and block over specification, even though both are within warp tolerances. Every engine is different, even the same engine from the same manufacturer, they're all slightly different.
Then stay in the dinosaur age... It is clear from your past comments on this channel that you don't care much for Total Seal. I too started in the late 80's. Times change and things get better... Try and open your eyes.
Out of curiosity, if inere to drop my engine off to ya, and I said ,gap the rings to 900hp on a boosted application. After all the measurements, what would be your ring gaps, on a 3.5inch bore? I ask cause that's what I did. Now I'm sitting here with 2 cracked ringlands and 9 months later refreshing a new motor and gapping the rings myself cause the machine shop went too small.
@@PiterStreak This is what I don't understand, is this guy saying that leaving instructions and specifications to your machine shop telling them how to do their job? If you put 45 degree cross hatch angle on every cylinder you machine, you're going to have some pissed off customers.
All skilled trades are minimized. Been in the automotive machining trade since 1991 myself. There was once a sign hanging on the wall of a shop I traded with “ The beatings will continue until the morale improves!” .
25 years ago I found really by accident that I would do a first hone with a very rough hone. Then I saw the error that a guy that worked for me made. I went back with a hone that was very, very fine. After that engine was broken in on my dyno I noticed that everything ran better and different, plus it made more power that when we first built the engine by about 40 Lb/Ft and 30 HP. I attributed to better ring sealing because I did such a fine final hone. What I came to realize was that what I really did was leave the grooves deeper in the cross hatch and that was when I first figured out that the oil film on the cylinder wall was critical in getting a good seal.
Great to see a machine like this today that can provide more accurate results. Thanks Lake...
Thanks for sharing!
Love this Info !!! This kind of stuff reminds me of hanging around a friends Engine Shop in the 80's. We called him "The Master of going Faster". He had a small block all assembled ready for a team to pick up , A salesmen comes in with a Tool for a smooth final finish on the bores. He used a similar honing tool to a -- Sunnen CK-10. Salesman paid for all Gaskets and Labor to try new finish tool (as I remember it wrapped around stones - then you did your finish pattern with this on) Leaked Down Engine Ready to go then took it apart to Update Finish Pattern , then reassemble. If my memory is correct Leak Down Dropped in the area of 10 to 15 percent. Needless to say he was sold on using this on every block from that day forward. ( FORD contacted him and other small engine shops to build a test mule 2.3 4 cylinder, then compared them. His Engine had Highest HP and Torque and Lowest BSFC to achieve those numbers. Also ran longer than all the other test mules engines during those abuse sessions) Keep up the great info !!!
Cool! Thanks for sharing!
Great information !!
Glad it was helpful!
Very informative and very scientific. Love Speed Junior! I'm from Pakistan
Thanks!
Hi Lake, big fan of your Dad, and you now as well. Very informative videos, appreciate you showing theory and practice applied to real world applications and the cause and effect of these. I am interested in tribology, worked as a Mechanical Development Engineer including plateau honing of cylinder bores and liners with a well known Diesel engine designer and manufacturer Mr. Mark Malburg used to be employed with. Sat through some of his seminars, he is a genius at surface texture measurement and software design to accurately measure plateau honed surfaces like cylinder bores among other applications. Keep up the great work.
Awesome! Thanks for watching!
An acquaintance of mine ran a Sportsman class stockcar in the 90's. He told me Amsoil was the only oil that allowed him to see the crosshatchs at the end of the racing season.
I know there's a lot of other variables that go into that, but I've been using Amsoil ever since in everything I own from my grass trimmer to my 4x4.
I believe, I could be mistaken but most car manufacturers actually say to not use amsoil. Again, I could be mistaken but I’m pretty sure they say amsoil will void the warranty on your vehicle. I use eneos oil in all of my cars. I love that stuff. I swear to god it looks and feels like the cleanest oil on earth. It cost about the same as amsoil but worth it. Eneos is japans largest motor oil company and we all know how long Japanese cars last. That’s proof enough for me.
@@I_will_show_you_monkey I'll check that oil out. I've heard the name, but never looked into it.
Car manufacturers say that about all oil. It's a marketing tool they use to sell more of their own oil. It's against the law in North America to void a warranty over oil, brake pads/rotors, and other routine maintenance parts.
Lawn mower, ATV, Farm tractor, even chainsaw companies try and tell you you'll void warranty if you don't use their oil. Total B.S.
How would you work out that the cross hatch should be the same top to bottom when cylinder pressure, temp, speed etc are different from tdc to bdc and the volume of oil?
We all know what happens when the cyl walls become polished but would it be wise to torque plate the block deck for a more precise bore ? Tolerances change when head bolts are torqued ! I know oldsmoble did this in the 60's and 70's
Oh yeah. Using a torque plate is key.
@@TotalSeal How about heating the block to the temp it operates?
So what is the right cross hatch angle for our engines?
Some high-performance engines use laser-etched microstructures on the cylinder walls or piston rings. What are your thoughts on that vs these honing techniques, and do you provide these kinds of products?
That is interesting technology. We don't provide that technique, but it is an alternative to the honing methods we discuss.
35.5 degree's
I watch another channel Powell Machine and he does try and get good numbers, but nothing like what you get here with the Rottler and I asked him in the comments would he consider getting a Rottler and he said When I have an extra $180k. So Rottler or whoever else, you need to do better. The first company that can bring this tech to the normal machine shop will be very successful. Because while you know what’s best, if no one or few can replicate it, then what good is it? I challenge all companies out there to create a machine that can do this for under $40-50k.
The Rottler machines are $80k, not $180
Still crazy! Small shops can't afford that. You couldn't make that money back in with a 30yr mortgage!
I used a Sunnen portable hone for years and a plateau brush afterwards.NEVER had a problem! And never left more than .002 after boring. Van Norman 777 Left silk smooth surface easy to hone . Don't know what's the big fuss about honing. Cleaning and basics is more important. Most guys first engines blow up because they hit the crank with the rod bolts. And put the pistons in the engine on the stand like it's in the car. Turn the deck towards you when installing pistons. Squatting underneath the engine is working like a schmuck.
@@TotalSeal I’ll reply back to him in that comment then. Maybe he was over exaggerating to justify not having one.
Comec will do similiar for 35k
Powell showed me his numbers on the first video of his that I watched. I think I’ve watched every Lake Speed honing video and I haven’t seen any numbers yet. Nor does he say what they are trying to hit. I don’t know how they can talk so much and never say or show me anything. Now he says go to size and plateau. Well I’ve been doing that for 10 years. It’s the only way I can get the valleys deep enough to have something left after the plateau. He has Greg Anderson on there. Do you think he gave us some numbers to shoot for? No. I don’t know how I could get less information.
So what IS the right crosshatch angle?
I assume its a horses for courses thing but what's the range and for what applications?
video was more of an advertisement than DIY information
The cross hatch angle should change based on the application
@@TotalSeal what's the primary factor, operating RPM range?
@@ElPants21 As mentioned in the video, the length of the stroke matters the most. The longer the stroke, the wider the cross hatch angle.
I want laser etched cross hatch on carbonitrided alloy steel cylinders.
That would be awesome
Dear Lake Speed Jr., your videos are very inspirational and fun to watch! I have a question where you may be the right person to answer. I‘m a BMW enthusiast and they have switched from bucket cam followers to roller finger follower style in the last decades. The finger follower engines I have seen typically experience a lot of wear on the valve guides. They wear out like an oval trumpet shape, if that makes sense. My question is, how can I improve longevity of bronze valve guides? Do you have a recommendation on how to resurface the valve stems and what Ra values etc. to aim for? Does DLC /TIN coating help?
I am looking very much forward to your reply
That’s a great question. I’ve not worked on that problem before, so I don’t have an answer.
@@TotalSeal Thanks for your reply. I’ll stick to replacing guides and exotic coatings so long :)
I haven't worked with or looked at those engines, but I know some engines wear guides because of misalignment (like some LS and their rockers). Some wear due to what you're pointing at, guide material isn't working with the surface treatment (or lack thereof), but it seems like a strange thing for a manufacturer to get wrong (though it's happened before).
@@PSA78 I feel like this issue isn’t very well known in the BMW community, since it’s somewhat of a newer phenomenon (almost all BMW engines used bucket type lifters until around 2006 and there was absolutely 0 wear on valve guides or stems until then). Also properly diagnosing valve stem wear and quantifying it with a bore gauge etc. is a rather involved process for most shops or hobbyists. BMW addressed this issue with chrome nitride coatings on the valve stems from around 2012-2013, but I feel like there’s still a lot of room for improvement. Seeing the great results in these videos regarding honing, rings and piston technology got me thinking if the surface treatment for valves could be optimized (worn out valve stems will not only kill your guide seals and have the engine burn oil, it will also lower compression, wear out the seats and kill power end efficiency).
100µ is .003937"
100 micro inches is .0001
@@TotalSeal .0001" is 2.54µ we are mixing semantics, I am speaking about microns (metric) and you are speaking about fractions of tenths, No Problem
I work as an engine machinist.
I guess this is 'interesting' to the average guy that tinkers with engines occasionally, but in reality, they will never have an influence on the outcome of this work.
What I don't like is when people drop off engine components to have them machined or refinished and they tell me how to do my job, which I have been doing since 1987,based on what they have watched on TH-cam.
It's amusing at first, but lately it's been getting ridiculous.
Do you look up the specifications and tolerances of the engines you machine? Some people have specific requirements for machining, for example you can't shave the head more than x amount or you start changing the quench which requires more machining. Or engines with timing chains have their timing altered by decking both head and block over specification, even though both are within warp tolerances. Every engine is different, even the same engine from the same manufacturer, they're all slightly different.
Then stay in the dinosaur age...
It is clear from your past comments on this channel that you don't care much for Total Seal. I too started in the late 80's. Times change and things get better... Try and open your eyes.
Out of curiosity, if inere to drop my engine off to ya, and I said ,gap the rings to 900hp on a boosted application. After all the measurements, what would be your ring gaps, on a 3.5inch bore?
I ask cause that's what I did. Now I'm sitting here with 2 cracked ringlands and 9 months later refreshing a new motor and gapping the rings myself cause the machine shop went too small.
@@PiterStreak This is what I don't understand, is this guy saying that leaving instructions and specifications to your machine shop telling them how to do their job? If you put 45 degree cross hatch angle on every cylinder you machine, you're going to have some pissed off customers.
All skilled trades are minimized. Been in the automotive machining trade since 1991 myself.
There was once a sign hanging on the wall of a shop I traded with
“ The beatings will continue until the morale improves!”
.