There Are Writers Who Outline And There Are Writers Who Fail - Corey Mandell
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ก.พ. 2024
- Corey Mandell is an award-winning playwright and screenwriter who has written projects for Ridley Scott, Wolfgang Petersen, Harrison Ford, John Travolta, Warner Brothers, Universal, 20th Century Fox, Fox 2000, Fox Family, Working Title, Paramount, Live Planet, Beacon Films, Touchstone, Trilogy, Radiant and Walt Disney Pictures.
Corey teaches screenwriting via private online classes using video conferencing to allow participants to see and hear each other in real time. His highly popular classes draw students from across the US, Europe and Australia.
His students have gone on to sell or option scripts to Warner Brothers, Paramount, Sony Pictures, Disney, Fox, Fox 2000, MGM, Universal, USA Network and Lifetime. Others have gained admission to the USC Graduate Screenwriting Program, the AFI Conservatory Screenwriting Program and Sundance Screenwriter’s Lab.
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Here is our full interview with Corey - th-cam.com/video/CWfcjN8ajHg/w-d-xo.html
Stephen King: Never write down an idea, you'll end up with a bunch of banal ideas. Good ideas always stay with you and you won't forget them.
David Lynch: Always write down every idea you have, because there's nothing worse than having a great idea and not being able to remember it.
He’s 100% right about kids. They’re so creative & playful. Once you get older, you become an overly serious adult whose individuality has been destroyed by the world. A youthful spirit is priceless.
I totally agree that the creation process is a very personal thing. Don’t JUST follow others’ advice; explore the methods that work best for you.
1000% right about kids! I remember as a kid, I lived in a world of imagination, of creativity and possibility. I was always writing lyrics, short plays, fan fiction, etc. I was also very into singing along to cds, like karaoke in my living room. I think it requires to be a bit of a rebel as artists because we often hear from family members, friends, friends of family that we should get a real job, study something that we can actually make a living with, but what if those jobs/careers don't really give us joy?
What's so great about the place that Corey's advice comes from is that he so fully understands that the process of writing something can be so many things at once. You're not just discovering the story, you're discovering yourself as a person, and yourself as a writer all at the same time. I also love his persistent advice about challenging your own grain and getting yourself out of your comfort zone. In baseball, even if you're a right handed hitter, a good coach will make you take swings from the left side. You might not learn how to hit well left handed, but you'll learn something. Something you weren't expecting to learn.
Corey is The Man.
Corey's always worth listening to. Clear, concise, insightful.
Those who don't outline can write a story but if they try to write a series they will eventually fail because they will eventually write themselves into a corner.
So true! I came to a similar conclusion through my process of redoing most of my outlines when I actually went to write, I started feeling like a lot of it was just a series of flat events, then I asked myself what kind of feelings should the audience be feeling at this point, and it started writing itself. I did have an outline as a backbone, but I'll just throw out whole scenes if I need to/ they don't serve a purpose.
As someone who has been through all of Corey's amazing courses. I used to be just a conceptual writer, obsessed with outlining first. Right now I create the experience and explore events, explore characters intuitively and it so far has created my best work. Stepping out of your comfort zone and trying the other side of writing really brings great and surprising results to your overall story, in my experience. Thank you once again, Film Courage. It's because of you, I found Corey. Never forget how much value you bring to people.
Omfg once again you make a video about the exact thing I’m dealing with. I started this script knowing the first act and the end and not outlining and now I’m Paying the price. It’s still going to work though. I knew enough of the time and the world and it’s a goofy comedy so the internal logic doesn’t have to be perfect.
This guy is completely correct in the grand scheme. You can absolutely crank out pages when you have an outline.
Outlining helps to structure a story, but none of that matters if the events of the story are boring or if the characters aren't interesting or if the dialogue is bad. Make sure those things are taken care of first.
Corey obliterates all the noise about discovery writers v outliners, story vs plot, plot vs character, theme vs character. None of that matters if the story doesn't resonate with the audience, and the only that's going to happen is if you're giving the audience compelling events as part of an experience, and that can be achieved through *any* process that works for the writer. What a wonderful tool for every writer! This video explains why so many committee made big budget movies of today are so forgettable and similar, and why audiences feel so apathetic.
I wonder if the 'experience map' could also be used to revise/rewrite an existing draft that isn't working by forcing the writer back to basics to assess all the existing scenes. This goes hand in hand with his "What's it really about?" advice. If the writer has a clear understanding of what it's really about and what experiences the viewer is going to have then I agree, the writing experience becomes not only easier, but more fun, because you're always going to have guiding light that makes sense, rather than contrivance. "Story Design" is basically what a discovery writer does in their head before or during the first draft, I suppose, and gives them a solution whenever an outliner tells them how they "should do it". Even a meticulous outliner can get lost in the process if they discover their scenes don't resonate and aren't compelling.
I outlined my script with the good old 3 Act Structure. And in each act, there's a turning point which takes my story in different turns.
I'm absolutely in NO way against outlining, but those who tell me I have to first don't help, and instead get in my way because I can't even begin to outline until I've started writing. It's just how my brain works. Until I learned that, and worked it out my own way, my own style of writing, I was never able to get anything written. Do what works for YOU!
I’ve only ever once outlined a script. It was after I took Corey’s course 🤣
Some have to outline, some have it naturally engrained in their subconscious, basically every good writer outlines, knowingly or unknowingly.
Mandell's approach to screenwriting is fascinating. The question is, how do you balance the need for structure in outlining with the freedom to let creative ideas flow?
I suppose it's just a matter of practice and getting feedback. But how many creative decisions does the writer potentially make on what is "supposed to" happen based on their fears of judgement or expectations based on similar stories. I think creativity comes in the absence of fear, combined with some distinct boundaries or limitations that force the artist to explore different solutions.
I have done both, outlines certain stories both in screenplays and prose, and haven't outlined with other tales, especially prose, and that sense of discovery can be liberating, it does seem true that Characters will often tell you where to go with a story. It all depends.
I love Screen Courage but almost didn’t click on this one because the title is the opposite of what @coreymandell is suggesting. Story design and objectives is something I only just started to scratch the surface of and I have written scripts with outline and without. It’s reassuring to find that my instinct to pursue objective and story design is a view other writers share. And also I have far more trust in consultants like Corey or Glenn Gerrs who say there is no one way to find your process. 👏 👏
I felt the same til I saw his face.
I make outlines but end up changing the outline as new ideas come to me so then I realized, why am I wasting my time making an outline if I'm not really going to follow it anyway? Keeping to an outline limits your creativity. I guess I figured out what he is saying from my own experience.
An outline isn't supposed to be a prison, it's a guideline, a scaffold, a tool. And any beginner would be foolish to completely ignore it. But it can also be incredibly hard to do, especially when you don't have a lot of experience. It always irritates me when I see people starting to write for the first time and they go like "oh, I'm a Pantser, not a Plotter", not because they write better without an outline, but because they just have no idea what an outline even is, and writing an outline can be way harder than just starting to write, and they read about pantser and plotter and boom, they no longer need to care about outlines. It doesn't work like that. At the same time, "you must have an outline" is no good advice, either. You should understand what an outline is, and how you can use it as a tool. Sometimes you'll use it to set up a scaffolding for yourself. Sometimes you use it to measure your story once you've written it, to see if it shapes up to something coherent. But completely ignoring it, I think, is always to your own detriment.
I think this comes back to Corey's point about different kinds of artists/writers, though. Some are very focused on the intricacy of the plot, and others are very focused on authenticity and instinct of how things feel. And of course some people are a combination of both. I agree that an outline is often incorrectly implied to be rigid and detailed, probably because most writing advice (especially the stuff regurgitated on online) is based on fitting an existing paradigm to an existing finished script and working backwards, and so it artificially gives the impression that writing a "great script" involves never deviating from an outline/paradigm.
Through all of my writing education my most powerful question was "why". Teachers/professors would ask what technique or style I was using and I would just tell them, "none, my own". The look of confusion and consternation on most of their faces was like watching a goldfish try to understand the mating habits of a Bengal tiger... you're welcome.
I don't know how anyone writes a story without outlining it beforehand. I couldn't. For me outlining is about 90% of the work.
Outlining for an 'experience map' doesn't make sense to me. I outline to create a well told story. If the story is well told then the audience will naturally respond with whichever emotion applies to the moment.
If a story is well told it will evoke emotions in the audience as they experience the story though, no?
@@Ruylopez778 Yes.
@@matthewlavagna6080 So why not try an experience map before outlining? I think that would make it easier to produce a "well told" story.
@@Ruylopez778 How would that even work? It doesn't make any sense to me.
@@matthewlavagna6080 I suppose what I understood it to mean is to focus more on the audience and your own vision for the story at first - like a mood board? I suppose it's no different than how most people begin the outline process, but the outline process usually focuses on structure or arc or objectives. I think the risk with this is that they aren't necessarily unified and may be contrived or banal - as in the writer had an idea that they wanted to write and justifies a way to include it even if it doesn't fit. I think the idea is to have a cohesive emotional thread and then build detail into that thread through compelling ideas.
Perhaps the way to practice this is to deconstruct a popular movie and work out the resonating, experience side of the story, and how that informs the scenes? For example, SHAWSHANK, while we can talk about characters and arcs and themes, let's say the starting point might be the idea of "friendship" and then within that we get institutionalisation, solitary confinement, punishment, bullying, gang war, smuggling & trading favors, and so you have a new inmate and the guy who can get you anything. And from there you think about the duration of a sentence and how prison changes a man, education, regret, disillusionment and suicide etc. And that then gives you the ideas for those scenes. And then from there, flesh out each of the scenes and arcs and characters. You might have the theme of 'freedom is a state of mind that prison can't take away' before you start the outline or after you revise it, but everything ties back in to that friendship between Andy and Red. That's just my take on it. I'm not saying that's exactly what Corey meant, or that it will work for everyone, but potentially it could make the whole thing resonate more, and be easier to construct and work through the early drafts.
Outcome over output over process
I'm no professional writer, haven't sold a script but have written 7 or 8 of them. I realized when watching this that I always outline when for one reason or another I don't particularly enjoy the concept but grinding away because it's part of the "necessary: steps required to perhaps, maybe make a career out of this shit. (ie short film, zero budget, one location) but when working on scripts I really enjoy, sometimes obsess over, it's all write as you go. In my head I will usually have a good idea of where it needs to go and how it all ends but that's it I just let it flow.
Outlining seems great for grinding through crap you've been told to do or don't particularly enjoy doing but is restrictive and ultimately ignored anyway, for the writing that you're passionate about.
I feel like winging it doesn't work when you're working on a series with specific guidelines and a time limit.
Thanks again for more great insights from Corey. I have always thought of my process as outlining, which I do in stages to prepare for writing and as I write. It is actually story and experience design as Corey describes. Understanding the difference between these processes and being able to communicate it effectively is why Corey is a favorite.
Love love love Battlefield Earth!
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This is great. I start with the character or characters, then the objectives then the headings. Once done, all else is smoothe, because I know what they want and why.
2:40
That was me…
I was stubborn for a while and said “outline?!” Who needs her?!”
Then I tried outlining bc I needed writing motivation. It worked for a while, then I got bored.
Now, I barely outline. The outline is just part of the process. I just kinda have an idea of my major plot points and where the script will end. I outline as I go so I know what I need to write next, but so I don’t get lost because of an outline I wrote a month or two ago. We know our characters, we know our arcs. Let’s get to work!!!! 🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉
WHAT i feel the main difference between writers who outline or plotting upfront and writers who go with the flow...i feel that plotters has more commercial appeal than other one..for eg christopher nolan vs tarantino-u can see how much plot is there in nolan movies than tarantino movies. if Inglourious Basterds have been written by nolan,i think there will be more exciting scenes or more opponents.right?i dont know..just a thought..
Or, tarantino can't write a story to save himself so compensates with over-stylize superficial "coolness" to distract the slack jawed masses from the total lack of plot.
@@itadaku23 i am not saying one is better than the other..i am saying difference i felt between being pantser and plotter..
I have tried so many times to JUST write and it doesn't work for me. I go off on a complete tangent. I MUST outline. In fact I spend 80% outlining and 20% writing. I will say this about Corey though. I think his comment about "the best writers never outline" isn't true. I've noticed something about great writer interviews. All of them love to say I don't outline and yet when you get a glimpse of their offices where they work, they have story boards all over their walls. It’s almost like it’s a sin to outline or its embarrassing for them. But I bet you that each and every one of them organize their thoughts somehow. And the moment you write something. Even if it’s just an idea on what’s going to happen in ACT 1...then you are outlining my friend. Call it what you want.
What do you think?
Outlining has worked really well for me with writing a novel, I floundered around for waay too long until I studied structure and outlined it. Now I am editing it and starting a screenplay (different story). I am walking around writing out scene blurbs and the outline. It's taking awhile but I know one I have everything mapped out the script will flow just like the novel did. I read somewhere that Ian Fleming outlined his Bond books for months and then wrote the novel in 6 weeks. It worked for him ... although different people have their own processes, it's working for me! Thanks for this video!!
Corey's illuminating articulation has left me in deep thought yet again. Thank You.
We, aspiring writers lost in the desert, desperately seeking applicable insights to quench our thirsts. Enter the sagacious spring of Corey Mandell. It means more then you'll ever know.
Really good clip thank you! Also applies to games design.
Thanks for posting! What kind of game design?
Experience map. Crazy ive only heard about this concept now. On it. 😊
Does anyone write an outline without the experience design in mind anyway?
Thank you! I have NEVER outlined any of my scripts before hand. I wouldn't even know where to start. If I put something in, I'll go back and earmark or edit for that change then keep on writing. If I do research, ill put notes in front of my work to be sure to include those details as I write.
Thanks, that made a whole heap of sense… 🎆
For me writing into the dark is the first option. I really like the idea of an experiences map.
I don't think you necessarily need to outline the whole story but I think knowing your protagonist's character arc before you begin is very important.
The primary thing is to have a well-defined goal. Character arcs and outlines can be derived from that if need be. If you start with something else like the setting, character arc, a plot event, or whatever, I believe it's best to still try and nail down the goal early on.
@@ssssssstssssssss The character arc is the goal. Name a goal that doesn't involve character change.
Yup. Do what works for you.
This guy is deluding himself. 😂
I knew a guy who said, resting your steak 20 minutes is nonsense! He said, by the time you finish cooking the steak, and then you get your sides together, bla bla bla, sit down to eat, 20 minutes has passed anyway! 😯
Soooooo you do let your steak rest after all? 😂
He, like Steven King, has convinced himself that he doesn't outline, by simply calling it an experience map. Or as I would call it, a poorly done outline. 😂
Outlining is a tool. One that only works if you master it. Otherwise like all tools, you will probably find it frustrating.
Complete. Bull. Shit. Steven King never 'outlined' anything in his entire life.
"The last thing I would ever want to do would be to spoil a book, with plot."
Is Steven King a writer who 'failed'?
What he is , is one of scores of examples who did not ever outline prior to drafting and who did not ever fail. So don't buy in. If King and thousands of others can do it, so can you. Plot always emerges automatically in every story he writes, even though he never focuses his attention there, and very likely because he doesn't. On purpose.
There is an actual very good reason to not outline before you draft:
Those who outline BEFORE drafting do typically succeed more than writers who NEVER outline, but the key is not IF you outline, it's WHEN. If you outline AFTER drafting, to edit, revise, polish, restructure, and to fix problems, that can be just as effective, if not one whole hell of a lot more so, than outlining before you draft, which has a tendency to not let the creative forces (all of which come from your unconscious and never from your conscious awareness) drive the bus. All you have to do is be willing to do the work. After the draft.
It's good to have some partly formed idea ahead of time, but in drafting, ignore and transcend whatever glimmer of a plan there is, let what happens happen, let your ego take a back seat, and relegate yourself to the role of stenographer. Just blast it out without thinking about it. Shoot first and ask questions later. Once it's on the page, then you have something to work with, consciously. Something you have created. And you can thank your unconscious for that. Your unconscious never needed an outline to provide the creativity.
Writing is not like doing ice sculptures with a chainsaw (do those artists outline first?), writing is a wholly non-destructive medium. Creativity never comes from your conscious awareness. Not even a little bit. Our conscious minds simply take ownership of it once it is gifted to us by our unconscious.
Have the courage to trust your unconscious. It knows what it's doing. It knows your story already. Listen to it tell you your story, write that down, and then fix what doesn't work, after the fact, after the drafting.
Bottom line, outlining before drafting, a function borne out of conscious awareness, can just get the eff in the way of your creativity. Don't let it, and not outlining beforehand can prevent that problem completely.
So yes, outlining can be a very good idea. But outlining before you draft can be a really bad idea that can have you stumbling over your own two feet. Be willing to accept that the more you strategize to come up with a formula, the more you're going to stumble, and the less your unconscious will be able to whisper your story to you.
It's not a matter of the order in which you do what you need to do. It's a matter of IF.
His very first line is saying he would never tell every writer to outline. Did you watch the video?
Exceptions don’t disprove the rule.
JK Rowling outlined like crazy
I mean one of the big criticisms of King is that his endings can feel 'weak'. As far as I know, he writes at least one revision, where he can change things from the first draft, even if only minor things. Just because he has an interesting hook and an appealing voice, doesn't mean his process works for everyone. King advocates never writing down ideas because you'll own have a list of bad ideas. Good ideas stick, he says. David Lynch advocates always writing down ideas because there's nothing worse than not being about to remember a great idea. Who is right? Who is wrong? Both. Neither.
You are SPOT ON with the subconscious doing a lot of the writing. I had heard once to “let yourself write things, even if they don’t fit or if you can’t see where this will go, or why it’s important; your subconscious knows. It writes ahead of you. Trust it.” Excellent post 👊🏽👍🏽
What kind of light did you use for this particular video and how close or how far away did you place your light?