I find that "too much tension" is actually boring for me. I get really uninvested when the protagonist has to face nothing but hurdle after hurdle after hurdle with no wins and no breathing space. I suppose it is meant to be thrilling but I find it tedious. Tension is better in small doses, otherwise you start to become immune to it and it loses its punch. That said, I am fully invested in the tension you are building wit that shelf. As the Leaning Tower of Books begins to list closer and closer to the door, Lord Kitty Purrsalot has wisely made himself scarce. His naive servant Carl, however, continues to be the protagonist we all keep yelling "Watch out for the shelf!" at while he blissfully goes about his day, safe in the knowledge that he is in a story and no harm will come to him. Lord Purrsalot also knows that no writer would alienate their readers by killing an adorable animal and therefore, he, too, is safe from harm. But he's also wise enough not to risk the subversion of expectations and has run for safety. Tension is mounting as our previously held belief that the shelf is safe is beginning to fall apart and our hero really is in peril. Will Carl make it out alive? Will Lord Purrsalot be safe in his hiding place, or will he come out for a cuddle just as the shelf finally gives out? These cliffhangers are killing me!
This was my biggest problem a couple of years ago, trying to basically write a compelling short story for every chapter instead of letting things ebb and flow like the tides. You can do a lot with low stakes in terms of pathos and worldbuilding and let your characters and setting naturally interact.
the last one gets me every time! I have notes upon notes, books upon books, I've watched videos and listened to podcasts - all to help me write the thing that I'm not writing because I feel like I don't know enough and I'm taking up most of my writing time looking up more info. All that to say, I really love watching your advice videos!😂 You're funny and succinct and your cat is a show stealer
You can use telling to get through large amounts of detail quickly. You can use passive voice to change the order in which you give information. Verb choice can differentiate characters in dialogue, or a first person narrator. Sentence fragments for emphasis!
“If what is ruining your novel is that it is not written yet…” Ha! Number three is my problem. My story’s scale and stakes keep escalating. I started off writing a "simple" ghost story, but then got caught up in the implications of, “Wait a minute if there are ghosts, that would mean this, and then it would mean…” I think ghost stories and paranormal overall ignore this kind of thing for the most part. It's like, say, Stephen King's Pet Semetery focuses on just one family - Otherwise you'd have to answer, “What would happen to the world if there was a place where dead things resurrect?” Answering that kind of question is where my series has gotten more than a little convoluted. I certainly read too many comic books growing up. But that is what I like... Thanks for the context and nuance!
Are you aiming to write horror specifically, or some other sort of gothic-flavoured speculative fiction? I think the broad strokes of genre distinctions are helpful to keep in mind when thinking about how much to explain. orror is mostly about the unexplained, impossible and incomprehensible being after you, so the genre relies on NOT answering most logical questions. Horror is not meant to be logical, that can even be a very impactful part of it. Then again, in some older gothic stories (like The Great God Pan, there's a nice audiobook reading of it on spotify afaik) do rely heavily on empirical science and characters TRYING to understand why the impossible is happening - and finding no logical results anyway. Fantasy slides a bit to the left from that idea - the unexplained is no longer terrifying, but awe-inspiring and exciting. The gothic turns into the romantic (in an art history sense, not necessarily as a love story). And science fiction takes a step towards actually explaining the phenomena, asking instead 'okay, but what IF there was logic behind all this, can we explore this idea further?' There are a lot of places where horror, fantasy and science fiction cross those boundaries, but knowing what's what might help you forward!
@jasminv8653 Thanks but, with five books written and the overall arc of 5-10 more plotted, it is what it is. I call it "paranormal suspense," and I'm not at all interested in trying to make it conform to pre-established classic genres. I'm writing what i enjoy, and what I hope a certain niche of readers will also really enjoy. People who have liked many of the stories and series I have will really enjoy this series, as each book is a good self-contained story while the series builds to a satisfying climax. They say classic genres are just marketing -- originally so bookstores would know what shelf to put the new books on, and so readers would know what part of the store to go to... I'm overall happy with my 'genre' and think it will have appeal -- but the challenge will be marketing it. As Craig Martelle puts it: "Put your book in front of the right reader." Fortunately I won't be worrying about that until I publish the 5th, which ties up the first year arc, answering a primary mystery about the main character In the meantime, it's a lot of fun, and the good kind of hard challenge.
Thank you for the reminder to give readers a break from tension. I’m writing a thriller and find myself jumping from tense action to tense action. I have to keep reminding myself to slow down between scenes.
For every single "Don't" at least a few hundred thousand books "did" and went on to be wildly successful. At some point writing advice becomes pointless. Stephen King doesn't need writing advice just like Haruki Murakami doesn't need writing advice. Eventually you have to say "fuck it I'll do it my way" and write. You become confident and competent enough to know what works on your own and by reading a lot. Don't let this nebulous "reader" keep you from writing your book.
For the tension issue, I've recently been reading Benedict Jacka's "Alex Verus" series. The series as a whole follows a typical three-act structure and I've been noticing that the act two despair bit works much better when it's a part of one book rather than lasting for more than two full volumes. I seem to be mostly past that low point now, but it was exhausting in the middle, to the detriment of my enjoyment of the series (and my ratings, for what they're worth).
The expectations one is tricky, as some people see the expectations set by genre, marketing and presentation as a kind of “contract with the consumer”, while on the other hand one of the things that art should do is surprise and confound. I’m generally pleasantly surprised when a novel turns out completely different from what I expected, and some of my most powerful reading experiences have been like that. However, there are occasions when it can be a real let down, and I think those tend to happen when the expectation-breaking seems cheap or contrived, as in the “it was all a dream!” trope when it’s used as a cheap way to resolve a difficult plot contrivance.
There are enough writers carving their own path that you can market anything. If it's good it sells itself. If it's just okay, it will fall by the wayside. Zelazny, Harrison, Delaney, Dick, Johnson, Le Guin, Butler, Ligotti, Chiang, Mieville, Vandermeer all have done their own versions of established genre tropes and taken them in great directions.
I’ve got a good outline for my novel, and it probably is too big in terms of ideas and plots. But I figure I’ll just write it all and then let an editor tell me what’s too much after I’ve finished say a third draft. I’ve got 7 main characters and 5 supporting, and the book will be between 400 and 500k words after a first draft. But I swear they all work together for a cohesive story. Although, I anticipate that I’ll be able to combine some characters after a few drafts.
The biggest problem for a writer is that every reader is different. As a reader, my tastes tend to be the opposite of what authors following the "prevailing wisdom" prefer. (Incidentally, I prefer, "the currently accepted norm"). * I dislike too much tension in a novel, which is why I am increasingly drawn to Japanese and Korean novels. I want to relax when I read. I don't want to be permanently on the edge of my seat. * I enjoy interludes where a character has a meal, drinks a beer, or takes a train - as long as the writing is good. * I believe the passive voice is often the best construction. As a newspaper headline, "Kennedy Assassinated!" beats, "Unknown gunman assassinates Kennedy!" hands down. It is also useful for emphasising the object of the sentence instead of the subject. * In real life, people rarely change, and not every book needs a main character who starts with some lame internal problem that he learns to overcome. This is a cliche. And while the above may be why I have never hit the best seller list, I suggest reading Haruki Murakami's brilliant, "The Wind Up Bird Chronicle" for a novel that sold millions while breaking every "rule" in the book.
Thanks for this advice! Now I would like to politely ask if it would be possible for a more positive video topic? I've noticed allot of your videos are about ruining or bad novels...Could you maybe talk about things that make great novels? Or maybe something about tips revolving pacing of a novel. I'd love that from you. Thanks anyways. Just thought I'd suggest something I'd watch.
The issue is that the algorithm has been messed up since an October update to add in 3 minute shorts which has resulted in mostly negative content getting picked up by the algorithm. There is also suspicion that this is being exacerbated by the influence of bots training the YT algorithm to view negative content more favorably. It's an ongoing known bug that has not yet been fixed and may actually become the new default state of the algorithm to help maintain the state of affairs on the platform because profit incentives demand it.
It is worth noting that obvious contrivances can be useful as tools, but only if they are done intentionally. For example, you can use them to create a release of tension due to something being done for comedic effect. In a way, this is kind of what the nature of slapstick comedy is. Tom chasing Jerry through the backyard only to be suddenly hit in the face by various tools as he runs over them IS contrived... but the set up is done well enough that it is made funny by the circumstances. The real problem is when a writer includes an obvious contrivance but is unaware of it and does not take the time to address it or its obvious issues.
The old 'show don't tell' advice is a perfect example of advice that is generally good but some times you should ignore. Because telling is significantly faster, and can greatly improve pacing when used at key spots.
He literally mentions this... explicitly in the very sentence you timestamped. "Being aware of what sort of predictions and expectations the reader has as they start and as they read your novel is going to help you guide your writing efforts, and will allow you to either violate or meet those expectations depending on what you want to do in the story."
I am the same way, so I get it. I don't feel the vicarious feelings of characters when reading like many people do, so it's hard to be certain what I grasp they mean is completely correct, but it has worked for me as a guideline when writing "tension" personally. I think "tension" is the wrong term but gets used because most readers feel it in a similar manner. It's more like "building expectations". For example, if you see two characters who have strong romantic or s**ual chemistry interacting regularly, you expect them to at some point act on it, so the question becomes, "what will finally make them act on it?" That is what people like this seem to mean when they mention tension... the idea of, "I know what is going to happen but I don't know when or how and I want to know." I think it is also worth mentioning that there isn't really just one type of tension though. My example is a tension between "I know it will happen, but I don't know the specifics." Consider this a "tailored tension." There's only so many possible outcomes because the author built the expectations in a certain way. But what about tension built for an event with unknown outcomes? A sort of "I know something is going to happen, but I do not know what will happen." Usually this would still be split between, two or three possible events, each of which can have their own possible outcomes, often falling back to a simple, "Do they succeed or do they fail," conclusion. The reader has an expectation of an event that will occur, but what happens can usually go in varying directions. The tension being built is to make it appear as if each outcome (Victory, Defeat, Mutual Gain, Mutual Loss, and whatever desired outcomes the author wants to make seem viable) has a realistic chance of occurring for each of the events without giving away too much as to which event will happen. For example, if the hero of the story is vastly outmatched by the antagonist without anything to close that gap, then there is no tension if the hero tries to fight the antagonist because the reader knows that either the hero will lose (which is the only correct answer) or the hero will win in a contrived or unsatisfying manner (which runs afoul of a later warning Carl gives). Even if the hero goes in with a plan, if it isn't communicated to the reader, then it doesn't feel as good for the reader when that plan plays out. Instead it feels as if the writer wrote themselves into a corner and, "this was my plan all along" was a copout or a cheap attempt to hoodwink the reader. What the writer might do instead is have the hero have a desired event (try to talk the antagonist out of their plans) but set up that the hero is taking steps in case other events occur (such as a fight breaks out, an ultimatum is made, a challenge/test is extended to the hero, or the antagonist decides they are willing to negotiate). The hero's steps towards each of these possible events builds tension because the author is telegraphing how the meeting with the antagonist might go, but because the audience doesn't know which route or whether the hero will succeed or fail, the audience becomes invested in resolving their interest. "How does the hero plan to talk down the antagonist? If the antagonist can be talked down, will they demand anything from the hero in return or will the hero have something to make it a total concession? If the hero has to fight despite being so weak, what will they do to defend themselves and maybe even win?" and so on. Good tension is about broadcasting points of possibility for how things can and (one of them) must play out without revealing to the audience the definitive answer. It's worth remembering that narrative tension is like a rubber band... you can't just stretch it but must also relax it too, otherwise the rubber band will snap. And if tension snaps, then you won't be able to get it back to the same way it was no matter how much you try. Tension will snap when you just put too much onto your readers in terms of expectations for what all events will happen and what all outcomes can occur that they just stop caring because it's too much. It's like how in Marvel movies audiences no longer care about the stakes because they started as saving a city and have now scaled to saving the multiverse... why should we care about any of this when it's so high-concept and the stakes we know about in the overall story now make down-to-earth stories seem irrelevant because the wider story being told could make this situation not matter? The rubber band has snapped which means writers have to use more effort in order to generate the same tension from the snapped rubber band OR find ways to get the audiences to take new rubber bands for these new movies... both are incredible challenges no writer should want to be forced into because getting the audience to care again is so much harder than getting them to care for the first time is. (It's telling that I think No Way Home was maybe the only movie in the MCU to convince audiences to take a new rubber band whereas all the other shows and movies, especially Multiverse of Madness, tried to obstinately keep the same rubberband from Endgame with only Loki Season 2 being, arguably, capable of getting audiences to care with the tension snapping again for many watchers with the finale.)
CARL DUNCAN, everybody.. what a legend. Dude pulls the best creativity out of me just by calling me out. Well, at least I’ll believe that one rule was ssssppeeciiffiiccally made for me. You MADCAT!!! 😅😅
too much tension is why I stopped reading thrillers. I really hate when the problem is on the edge of solved and more problems are introduced at the last minute. I would skip that and go to the last pages. Sorry Clive Cussler, I'm done with you and others like you.
Reader expectations can be addressed from 3 main angles: 1. What are the expectations they have based on the genre? For example, I mostly write in subgenres within romance and within portal fantasy. I know that if I am establishing a love-[SHAPE] (let's keep it simple with a love triangle) then I need to establish the characters involved early, regularly make progress towards each character's potential as a viable "endgame", then finish either with the desired couple being together or (if a serialized work) have the couple I want the readers to walk away with as the current "endgame" be progressed to some notable degree further than the other. If I am writing a serial work and adding the love triangle in book 2 of 3 (for example) then I need to temporarily separate the original endgame, let the new pairing develop a genuinely equivalent relationship in (at most) half the time I gave in the first book, then reintroduce the other love interest before switching to a tug-of-war in how I portray the merit of each relationship throughout book 2 and the first half of book 3 before really locking in why the final couple truly was just going to be the actual endgame. A poorly handled love triangle will instead refuse to establish the merit of both possible couples, will assume the audience already agrees with the author on who the best partner is, or otherwise fail to write a compelling romance let alone a compelling relationship. 2. What expectations do you as the author establish your audience to hold? Think of this as an extension of Chekhov's Gun. If you write a story where the main character is given 5 items at the start and 4 of the items get used throughout the story but the fifth is never mentioned, then your audience will get frustrated because you telegraphed that each of these items will have a use but you refused to use them all. Or if you take the time to mention there have been bandit attacks along Cutthroat's Pass then have your cast drive through there 100 pages later... you better have bandits (or some group posing as bandits) attack your characters. Or finally, if you are telling a story where a woman was separated from her baby before she eventually has to move away (maybe not by choice), then your audience may not care as much about the story you are telling because the thought of "but what about the baby" is racking around in their head, distracting them. 3. What expectations might your audience infer even if you didn't intend to imply them? If 1 is "Expectations by tradition," and 2 is "Expectations by intention," then this could be summarized as "Expectations by bias and preference." For this, you just simply need to know what audience you are courting. For example, if you are including a lot of text the audience seems to be taking as homoerotic, then you need to either make it far more clear in the writing that isn't the intention OR you need to follow through on the way people are taking it. Beta readers are a huge help in gauging the expectations your audience will hold especially if you set up a system to accurately track the thoughts your beta readers have at different points throughout the story. A great beta reader can do this without prompting but most need questionairres and "study guides" almost. (Genuinely not an insult. It's hard to instinctively know what to say especially if you haven't beta read for someone before or if you normally don't read for this sub/genre.) For example, when I beta read, I'll read through once and any time I have a thought, no matter what it is or how relevant, I note it down. Then I read again using this time only to not down my thoughts at the end of each chapter and to give my perspective on its rereadability. Then once more where I will only do this at the end of each act, again commenting on the 3rd-read experience. This is my way of providing a structure for myself when not given one, but a great beta reader doesn't need to do 3 reads to figure these things out. They can just do it, like super-easily, with 1/10th the effort I put in. In short, you find the expectations of your audience by knowing the genres and subgenres you are writing for and what audiences expect from them, make sure you follow through on the expectations you tell your audience to have, and then find out what kinds of audience would be drawn to your work and establish within the text which of their assumptions they are likely to have due to the kinds pf people they are that are correct and incorrect to have about the story. If you have more specific questions, I'll try to answer where I can.
So off topic question; what do you do when there is a trope you desperately want to avoid but that fit's your narrative in a way that makes it hard not to use? In this case it's magic school, and a major story beat involves the protagonist needing to be trained by a qualified institution because of politics, but I just loath 99% of these and find even the series where I like it I prefer the bits that take place outside of the magic school.
If you hate magical schools, think of something else. I know you said it needs to be a school, but there are like ten similar options that pop right into my head. Maybe they're drafted into the army instead. Maybe they bribe/blackmail the school. Maybe they fake their qualifications. Maybe they seduce someone high up in the government and get the requirement to go to a qualified institution waived. Maybe they hunt down an elusive qualified instructor who never takes students. I don't really know your story, but there have got to be countless alternatives since you can just make em up :D Don't write a school arc if you hate school arcs. Don't NOT write a school arc because you hate cliches. You can transcend cliches with creativity and passion.
Tropes are tools. They are not good. They are not bad. Every trope can be used in a manner that is positive or negative. There is nothing new under the sun, so don't worry about it being overused. If you want to use a trope but can't find a way you want like using it, then consider how you are using it. The following are just the most common methods of playing with a trope and just one of many ways in which you can take the story using each of these methods of trope-play. - *Are you playing it straight?* The school of magic is the premier institution for learning magic and is influential towards the politics/events of the story by its own merit as well as the merit of those who run the school. - *Are you subverting it?* The school of magic is actually quite incompetent and its influence derives from its history and therefore past traditions grant it sway over the politics/events of the story even though such influence is undeserved. - *Are you deconstructing it?* The school of magic being the primary institution of learning where the politics forcing the MC into learning here are actually counterproductive to the MC's needs, resulting in the MC finding better tutelage outside the rigid bounds of the traditional expectations thus creating conflict which stems from a combination of the school's traditional history, the present world's political landscape, and the MC's potential futures. - *Are you lampshading it?* The school of magic is treated by the world as the premier school of learning for magic, but the person the MC best learns from isn't associated with the school and actually far more competent than any instructor there, yet seems to be unaware of this fact while also pointing out how media stresses the importance of magic schools while also actively undermining them by showing students getting bad educations from the school and great educations elsewhere. (Or in other words, are you making a joke of the subject by actively doing the thing and commenting on it at the same time from within the story.) These aren't even most of the ways you can handle the trope. And to me it sounds as though you might be Justifying the trope. That is to say the MC has to learn from the magic school for political reasons but explaining this fact is about as far as you actually take it... There is nothing wrong with merely justifying a trope and moving on. That's wholly valid, but it might be causing you to find yourself uninspired to move forward with the story since this isn't enough for YOU as a writer. You happen to enjoy stories in this setting type that take place mostly OUTSIDE the school, so justifying why you can't just do that is creating a creative dead-end for you. Instead, try to play around with the trope a bit more to see how you like it in a different manner. That might get your creativity running again and can propel you to view your story in a different light.
@@flannerysnotebook @neu_dae It's less that I think tropes are cringy or overused and more I tend to really dislike this one, I find that it's inclusion tends to bring down the overall quality of most writing. There are plenty of things I've read that include this trope for part of the story and I find that almost universally the parts of the story not doing this are better. My question was less about this trope in particular though and more about overall broad strokes sort of shaping of a tale
@@TheMichaellathrop Didn't say that you think them "cringy or overused". I said that you tend to think this trope is particularly bad, and it's why I pointed out the many ways you can play it to make it not so... repetitive. Also, my answer does point towards how to shape a tale. The idea was more meant for, "how to use tropes as tools to make the tale satisfying," because the problem you're having was one you correctly identified... you don't like this trope yet you are writing the trope. The first step to making your story better is to focus on things you care about. The answer ultimately boils down to three options: Keep it as is, Play with the trope, or throw out the trope altogether and focus on the tropes you know you like. Number 1 and 3 are the most obvious ones to say and the least helpful, so I offered Option Number 2. The issue you're having isn't one of the story's structure; it's a conflict between your preference and the story's "Flavor Profile". Otherwise, if you're wanting story shapes, there's a ton of them depending on your needs. It's better to google them than to rely on someone suggesting a random shape that works for them that may not work for you or may not work for this specific story of yours.
Carl, next time just say….. ‘dave, this one is for you!’ 😂 You madcat!!! Nope nope nope. The Ancient World shall be so fricken big. Massive. Massive. 8 languages. Realism. Religions. A flat universe with earths realm protected by the biredome and the Wall of Amon. Its all encompassing of all human conspiracy, history and astrology. The 24-book universe is the future of literature and film. Star Wars will be put to rest. Harry Potter will be a ruined IP after HBO makes it again. LotR has already shat the bed long ago. The world has died of hunger from the death of great story, of great sorrow from pages. The world needs a new…. Massive, endless universe that seems to never end, in its landscape, in its history, it its endless novels. You almost got me!!! I almost put all 24 books reduced down to 1.7 books instead!! You MAD cat!!!😅
I find that "too much tension" is actually boring for me. I get really uninvested when the protagonist has to face nothing but hurdle after hurdle after hurdle with no wins and no breathing space. I suppose it is meant to be thrilling but I find it tedious. Tension is better in small doses, otherwise you start to become immune to it and it loses its punch.
That said, I am fully invested in the tension you are building wit that shelf.
As the Leaning Tower of Books begins to list closer and closer to the door, Lord Kitty Purrsalot has wisely made himself scarce. His naive servant Carl, however, continues to be the protagonist we all keep yelling "Watch out for the shelf!" at while he blissfully goes about his day, safe in the knowledge that he is in a story and no harm will come to him. Lord Purrsalot also knows that no writer would alienate their readers by killing an adorable animal and therefore, he, too, is safe from harm. But he's also wise enough not to risk the subversion of expectations and has run for safety.
Tension is mounting as our previously held belief that the shelf is safe is beginning to fall apart and our hero really is in peril. Will Carl make it out alive? Will Lord Purrsalot be safe in his hiding place, or will he come out for a cuddle just as the shelf finally gives out? These cliffhangers are killing me!
This was my biggest problem a couple of years ago, trying to basically write a compelling short story for every chapter instead of letting things ebb and flow like the tides. You can do a lot with low stakes in terms of pathos and worldbuilding and let your characters and setting naturally interact.
the last one gets me every time! I have notes upon notes, books upon books, I've watched videos and listened to podcasts - all to help me write the thing that I'm not writing because I feel like I don't know enough and I'm taking up most of my writing time looking up more info. All that to say, I really love watching your advice videos!😂 You're funny and succinct and your cat is a show stealer
You can use telling to get through large amounts of detail quickly. You can use passive voice to change the order in which you give information. Verb choice can differentiate characters in dialogue, or a first person narrator. Sentence fragments for emphasis!
you're a gem Carl. love your dead pan humor, and congrats on pulling together your insights
“If what is ruining your novel is that it is not written yet…”
Ha!
Number three is my problem. My story’s scale and stakes keep escalating.
I started off writing a "simple" ghost story, but then got caught up in the implications of, “Wait a minute if there are ghosts, that would mean this, and then it would mean…”
I think ghost stories and paranormal overall ignore this kind of thing for the most part. It's like, say, Stephen King's Pet Semetery focuses on just one family - Otherwise you'd have to answer, “What would happen to the world if there was a place where dead things resurrect?”
Answering that kind of question is where my series has gotten more than a little convoluted.
I certainly read too many comic books growing up. But that is what I like...
Thanks for the context and nuance!
Are you aiming to write horror specifically, or some other sort of gothic-flavoured speculative fiction? I think the broad strokes of genre distinctions are helpful to keep in mind when thinking about how much to explain.
orror is mostly about the unexplained, impossible and incomprehensible being after you, so the genre relies on NOT answering most logical questions. Horror is not meant to be logical, that can even be a very impactful part of it.
Then again, in some older gothic stories (like The Great God Pan, there's a nice audiobook reading of it on spotify afaik) do rely heavily on empirical science and characters TRYING to understand why the impossible is happening - and finding no logical results anyway.
Fantasy slides a bit to the left from that idea - the unexplained is no longer terrifying, but awe-inspiring and exciting. The gothic turns into the romantic (in an art history sense, not necessarily as a love story). And science fiction takes a step towards actually explaining the phenomena, asking instead 'okay, but what IF there was logic behind all this, can we explore this idea further?'
There are a lot of places where horror, fantasy and science fiction cross those boundaries, but knowing what's what might help you forward!
@jasminv8653 Thanks but, with five books written and the overall arc of 5-10 more plotted, it is what it is.
I call it "paranormal suspense," and I'm not at all interested in trying to make it conform to pre-established classic genres.
I'm writing what i enjoy, and what I hope a certain niche of readers will also really enjoy. People who have liked many of the stories and series I have will really enjoy this series, as each book is a good self-contained story while the series builds to a satisfying climax.
They say classic genres are just marketing -- originally so bookstores would know what shelf to put the new books on, and so readers would know what part of the store to go to...
I'm overall happy with my 'genre' and think it will have appeal -- but the challenge will be marketing it. As Craig Martelle puts it: "Put your book in front of the right reader." Fortunately I won't be worrying about that until I publish the 5th, which ties up the first year arc, answering a primary mystery about the main character
In the meantime, it's a lot of fun, and the good kind of hard challenge.
Thank you, Carl. Always great advice.
Thank you for such helpful advice!! I’m a new writer and subscribe to several writing advice channels. Your channel is one of the very best.
nr. 1 thing that will ruin your novel: writing on paper, for anything not set in metal cannot be trusted
Thank you for the reminder to give readers a break from tension. I’m writing a thriller and find myself jumping from tense action to tense action. I have to keep reminding myself to slow down between scenes.
For every single "Don't" at least a few hundred thousand books "did" and went on to be wildly successful.
At some point writing advice becomes pointless. Stephen King doesn't need writing advice just like Haruki Murakami doesn't need writing advice. Eventually you have to say "fuck it I'll do it my way" and write. You become confident and competent enough to know what works on your own and by reading a lot. Don't let this nebulous "reader" keep you from writing your book.
For the tension issue, I've recently been reading Benedict Jacka's "Alex Verus" series. The series as a whole follows a typical three-act structure and I've been noticing that the act two despair bit works much better when it's a part of one book rather than lasting for more than two full volumes. I seem to be mostly past that low point now, but it was exhausting in the middle, to the detriment of my enjoyment of the series (and my ratings, for what they're worth).
The expectations one is tricky, as some people see the expectations set by genre, marketing and presentation as a kind of “contract with the consumer”, while on the other hand one of the things that art should do is surprise and confound. I’m generally pleasantly surprised when a novel turns out completely different from what I expected, and some of my most powerful reading experiences have been like that. However, there are occasions when it can be a real let down, and I think those tend to happen when the expectation-breaking seems cheap or contrived, as in the “it was all a dream!” trope when it’s used as a cheap way to resolve a difficult plot contrivance.
There are enough writers carving their own path that you can market anything. If it's good it sells itself. If it's just okay, it will fall by the wayside. Zelazny, Harrison, Delaney, Dick, Johnson, Le Guin, Butler, Ligotti, Chiang, Mieville, Vandermeer all have done their own versions of established genre tropes and taken them in great directions.
I’ve got a good outline for my novel, and it probably is too big in terms of ideas and plots. But I figure I’ll just write it all and then let an editor tell me what’s too much after I’ve finished say a third draft. I’ve got 7 main characters and 5 supporting, and the book will be between 400 and 500k words after a first draft. But I swear they all work together for a cohesive story. Although, I anticipate that I’ll be able to combine some characters after a few drafts.
This is a really good channel that I super appreciate.Thank you
The biggest problem for a writer is that every reader is different. As a reader, my tastes tend to be the opposite of what authors following the "prevailing wisdom" prefer. (Incidentally, I prefer, "the currently accepted norm").
* I dislike too much tension in a novel, which is why I am increasingly drawn to Japanese and Korean novels. I want to relax when I read. I don't want to be permanently on the edge of my seat.
* I enjoy interludes where a character has a meal, drinks a beer, or takes a train - as long as the writing is good.
* I believe the passive voice is often the best construction. As a newspaper headline, "Kennedy Assassinated!" beats, "Unknown gunman assassinates Kennedy!" hands down. It is also useful for emphasising the object of the sentence instead of the subject.
* In real life, people rarely change, and not every book needs a main character who starts with some lame internal problem that he learns to overcome. This is a cliche.
And while the above may be why I have never hit the best seller list, I suggest reading Haruki Murakami's brilliant, "The Wind Up Bird Chronicle" for a novel that sold millions while breaking every "rule" in the book.
Thanks for this advice! Now I would like to politely ask if it would be possible for a more positive video topic? I've noticed allot of your videos are about ruining or bad novels...Could you maybe talk about things that make great novels? Or maybe something about tips revolving pacing of a novel. I'd love that from you. Thanks anyways. Just thought I'd suggest something I'd watch.
Ikr
The issue is that the algorithm has been messed up since an October update to add in 3 minute shorts which has resulted in mostly negative content getting picked up by the algorithm. There is also suspicion that this is being exacerbated by the influence of bots training the YT algorithm to view negative content more favorably. It's an ongoing known bug that has not yet been fixed and may actually become the new default state of the algorithm to help maintain the state of affairs on the platform because profit incentives demand it.
I subbed because of that picture in the back. The great advice is a bonus
My expectations were not confirmed because with the thumbnail I expected one of the things to be blamed on the cat.
It is worth noting that obvious contrivances can be useful as tools, but only if they are done intentionally. For example, you can use them to create a release of tension due to something being done for comedic effect. In a way, this is kind of what the nature of slapstick comedy is. Tom chasing Jerry through the backyard only to be suddenly hit in the face by various tools as he runs over them IS contrived... but the set up is done well enough that it is made funny by the circumstances. The real problem is when a writer includes an obvious contrivance but is unaware of it and does not take the time to address it or its obvious issues.
The old 'show don't tell' advice is a perfect example of advice that is generally good but some times you should ignore. Because telling is significantly faster, and can greatly improve pacing when used at key spots.
WHat? the cat will spoil my novel??????
1:30 What happened to subverting expectations to make a story more interesting? This isn't always bad.
He literally mentions this... explicitly in the very sentence you timestamped. "Being aware of what sort of predictions and expectations the reader has as they start and as they read your novel is going to help you guide your writing efforts, and will allow you to either violate or meet those expectations depending on what you want to do in the story."
What is a tension? I don't feel it when I read a book... but then I don't feel much at all, not to say I am dead inside.
I am the same way, so I get it. I don't feel the vicarious feelings of characters when reading like many people do, so it's hard to be certain what I grasp they mean is completely correct, but it has worked for me as a guideline when writing "tension" personally.
I think "tension" is the wrong term but gets used because most readers feel it in a similar manner. It's more like "building expectations". For example, if you see two characters who have strong romantic or s**ual chemistry interacting regularly, you expect them to at some point act on it, so the question becomes, "what will finally make them act on it?" That is what people like this seem to mean when they mention tension... the idea of, "I know what is going to happen but I don't know when or how and I want to know."
I think it is also worth mentioning that there isn't really just one type of tension though. My example is a tension between "I know it will happen, but I don't know the specifics." Consider this a "tailored tension." There's only so many possible outcomes because the author built the expectations in a certain way.
But what about tension built for an event with unknown outcomes? A sort of "I know something is going to happen, but I do not know what will happen." Usually this would still be split between, two or three possible events, each of which can have their own possible outcomes, often falling back to a simple, "Do they succeed or do they fail," conclusion. The reader has an expectation of an event that will occur, but what happens can usually go in varying directions. The tension being built is to make it appear as if each outcome (Victory, Defeat, Mutual Gain, Mutual Loss, and whatever desired outcomes the author wants to make seem viable) has a realistic chance of occurring for each of the events without giving away too much as to which event will happen.
For example, if the hero of the story is vastly outmatched by the antagonist without anything to close that gap, then there is no tension if the hero tries to fight the antagonist because the reader knows that either the hero will lose (which is the only correct answer) or the hero will win in a contrived or unsatisfying manner (which runs afoul of a later warning Carl gives). Even if the hero goes in with a plan, if it isn't communicated to the reader, then it doesn't feel as good for the reader when that plan plays out. Instead it feels as if the writer wrote themselves into a corner and, "this was my plan all along" was a copout or a cheap attempt to hoodwink the reader. What the writer might do instead is have the hero have a desired event (try to talk the antagonist out of their plans) but set up that the hero is taking steps in case other events occur (such as a fight breaks out, an ultimatum is made, a challenge/test is extended to the hero, or the antagonist decides they are willing to negotiate). The hero's steps towards each of these possible events builds tension because the author is telegraphing how the meeting with the antagonist might go, but because the audience doesn't know which route or whether the hero will succeed or fail, the audience becomes invested in resolving their interest. "How does the hero plan to talk down the antagonist? If the antagonist can be talked down, will they demand anything from the hero in return or will the hero have something to make it a total concession? If the hero has to fight despite being so weak, what will they do to defend themselves and maybe even win?" and so on. Good tension is about broadcasting points of possibility for how things can and (one of them) must play out without revealing to the audience the definitive answer.
It's worth remembering that narrative tension is like a rubber band... you can't just stretch it but must also relax it too, otherwise the rubber band will snap. And if tension snaps, then you won't be able to get it back to the same way it was no matter how much you try. Tension will snap when you just put too much onto your readers in terms of expectations for what all events will happen and what all outcomes can occur that they just stop caring because it's too much. It's like how in Marvel movies audiences no longer care about the stakes because they started as saving a city and have now scaled to saving the multiverse... why should we care about any of this when it's so high-concept and the stakes we know about in the overall story now make down-to-earth stories seem irrelevant because the wider story being told could make this situation not matter? The rubber band has snapped which means writers have to use more effort in order to generate the same tension from the snapped rubber band OR find ways to get the audiences to take new rubber bands for these new movies... both are incredible challenges no writer should want to be forced into because getting the audience to care again is so much harder than getting them to care for the first time is. (It's telling that I think No Way Home was maybe the only movie in the MCU to convince audiences to take a new rubber band whereas all the other shows and movies, especially Multiverse of Madness, tried to obstinately keep the same rubberband from Endgame with only Loki Season 2 being, arguably, capable of getting audiences to care with the tension snapping again for many watchers with the finale.)
CARL DUNCAN, everybody.. what a legend. Dude pulls the best creativity out of me just by calling me out. Well, at least I’ll believe that one rule was ssssppeeciiffiiccally made for me. You MADCAT!!! 😅😅
When clicking on one of your videos I expect to see a cat. And thus if the cat is not in the video then the video is ruined!
too much tension is why I stopped reading thrillers. I really hate when the problem is on the edge of solved and more problems are introduced at the last minute. I would skip that and go to the last pages. Sorry Clive Cussler, I'm done with you and others like you.
How can you know what a readers expectations are?
Reader expectations can be addressed from 3 main angles:
1. What are the expectations they have based on the genre? For example, I mostly write in subgenres within romance and within portal fantasy. I know that if I am establishing a love-[SHAPE] (let's keep it simple with a love triangle) then I need to establish the characters involved early, regularly make progress towards each character's potential as a viable "endgame", then finish either with the desired couple being together or (if a serialized work) have the couple I want the readers to walk away with as the current "endgame" be progressed to some notable degree further than the other. If I am writing a serial work and adding the love triangle in book 2 of 3 (for example) then I need to temporarily separate the original endgame, let the new pairing develop a genuinely equivalent relationship in (at most) half the time I gave in the first book, then reintroduce the other love interest before switching to a tug-of-war in how I portray the merit of each relationship throughout book 2 and the first half of book 3 before really locking in why the final couple truly was just going to be the actual endgame. A poorly handled love triangle will instead refuse to establish the merit of both possible couples, will assume the audience already agrees with the author on who the best partner is, or otherwise fail to write a compelling romance let alone a compelling relationship.
2. What expectations do you as the author establish your audience to hold? Think of this as an extension of Chekhov's Gun. If you write a story where the main character is given 5 items at the start and 4 of the items get used throughout the story but the fifth is never mentioned, then your audience will get frustrated because you telegraphed that each of these items will have a use but you refused to use them all. Or if you take the time to mention there have been bandit attacks along Cutthroat's Pass then have your cast drive through there 100 pages later... you better have bandits (or some group posing as bandits) attack your characters. Or finally, if you are telling a story where a woman was separated from her baby before she eventually has to move away (maybe not by choice), then your audience may not care as much about the story you are telling because the thought of "but what about the baby" is racking around in their head, distracting them.
3. What expectations might your audience infer even if you didn't intend to imply them? If 1 is "Expectations by tradition," and 2 is "Expectations by intention," then this could be summarized as "Expectations by bias and preference." For this, you just simply need to know what audience you are courting. For example, if you are including a lot of text the audience seems to be taking as homoerotic, then you need to either make it far more clear in the writing that isn't the intention OR you need to follow through on the way people are taking it. Beta readers are a huge help in gauging the expectations your audience will hold especially if you set up a system to accurately track the thoughts your beta readers have at different points throughout the story. A great beta reader can do this without prompting but most need questionairres and "study guides" almost. (Genuinely not an insult. It's hard to instinctively know what to say especially if you haven't beta read for someone before or if you normally don't read for this sub/genre.) For example, when I beta read, I'll read through once and any time I have a thought, no matter what it is or how relevant, I note it down. Then I read again using this time only to not down my thoughts at the end of each chapter and to give my perspective on its rereadability. Then once more where I will only do this at the end of each act, again commenting on the 3rd-read experience. This is my way of providing a structure for myself when not given one, but a great beta reader doesn't need to do 3 reads to figure these things out. They can just do it, like super-easily, with 1/10th the effort I put in.
In short, you find the expectations of your audience by knowing the genres and subgenres you are writing for and what audiences expect from them, make sure you follow through on the expectations you tell your audience to have, and then find out what kinds of audience would be drawn to your work and establish within the text which of their assumptions they are likely to have due to the kinds pf people they are that are correct and incorrect to have about the story.
If you have more specific questions, I'll try to answer where I can.
So off topic question; what do you do when there is a trope you desperately want to avoid but that fit's your narrative in a way that makes it hard not to use? In this case it's magic school, and a major story beat involves the protagonist needing to be trained by a qualified institution because of politics, but I just loath 99% of these and find even the series where I like it I prefer the bits that take place outside of the magic school.
If you hate magical schools, think of something else. I know you said it needs to be a school, but there are like ten similar options that pop right into my head. Maybe they're drafted into the army instead. Maybe they bribe/blackmail the school. Maybe they fake their qualifications. Maybe they seduce someone high up in the government and get the requirement to go to a qualified institution waived. Maybe they hunt down an elusive qualified instructor who never takes students. I don't really know your story, but there have got to be countless alternatives since you can just make em up :D
Don't write a school arc if you hate school arcs. Don't NOT write a school arc because you hate cliches. You can transcend cliches with creativity and passion.
just use the trope, tropes aren't inherently a bad thing if they're done well - also cringe culture is dead, do it!
Tropes are tools. They are not good. They are not bad. Every trope can be used in a manner that is positive or negative. There is nothing new under the sun, so don't worry about it being overused.
If you want to use a trope but can't find a way you want like using it, then consider how you are using it. The following are just the most common methods of playing with a trope and just one of many ways in which you can take the story using each of these methods of trope-play.
- *Are you playing it straight?* The school of magic is the premier institution for learning magic and is influential towards the politics/events of the story by its own merit as well as the merit of those who run the school.
- *Are you subverting it?* The school of magic is actually quite incompetent and its influence derives from its history and therefore past traditions grant it sway over the politics/events of the story even though such influence is undeserved.
- *Are you deconstructing it?* The school of magic being the primary institution of learning where the politics forcing the MC into learning here are actually counterproductive to the MC's needs, resulting in the MC finding better tutelage outside the rigid bounds of the traditional expectations thus creating conflict which stems from a combination of the school's traditional history, the present world's political landscape, and the MC's potential futures.
- *Are you lampshading it?* The school of magic is treated by the world as the premier school of learning for magic, but the person the MC best learns from isn't associated with the school and actually far more competent than any instructor there, yet seems to be unaware of this fact while also pointing out how media stresses the importance of magic schools while also actively undermining them by showing students getting bad educations from the school and great educations elsewhere. (Or in other words, are you making a joke of the subject by actively doing the thing and commenting on it at the same time from within the story.)
These aren't even most of the ways you can handle the trope. And to me it sounds as though you might be Justifying the trope. That is to say the MC has to learn from the magic school for political reasons but explaining this fact is about as far as you actually take it... There is nothing wrong with merely justifying a trope and moving on. That's wholly valid, but it might be causing you to find yourself uninspired to move forward with the story since this isn't enough for YOU as a writer. You happen to enjoy stories in this setting type that take place mostly OUTSIDE the school, so justifying why you can't just do that is creating a creative dead-end for you. Instead, try to play around with the trope a bit more to see how you like it in a different manner. That might get your creativity running again and can propel you to view your story in a different light.
@@flannerysnotebook @neu_dae It's less that I think tropes are cringy or overused and more I tend to really dislike this one, I find that it's inclusion tends to bring down the overall quality of most writing. There are plenty of things I've read that include this trope for part of the story and I find that almost universally the parts of the story not doing this are better. My question was less about this trope in particular though and more about overall broad strokes sort of shaping of a tale
@@TheMichaellathrop Didn't say that you think them "cringy or overused". I said that you tend to think this trope is particularly bad, and it's why I pointed out the many ways you can play it to make it not so... repetitive.
Also, my answer does point towards how to shape a tale. The idea was more meant for, "how to use tropes as tools to make the tale satisfying," because the problem you're having was one you correctly identified... you don't like this trope yet you are writing the trope. The first step to making your story better is to focus on things you care about. The answer ultimately boils down to three options: Keep it as is, Play with the trope, or throw out the trope altogether and focus on the tropes you know you like. Number 1 and 3 are the most obvious ones to say and the least helpful, so I offered Option Number 2. The issue you're having isn't one of the story's structure; it's a conflict between your preference and the story's "Flavor Profile".
Otherwise, if you're wanting story shapes, there's a ton of them depending on your needs. It's better to google them than to rely on someone suggesting a random shape that works for them that may not work for you or may not work for this specific story of yours.
I like your mouse avatar.
That's his cat! Lens distortion.
@@PaulRWorthington I know. I like to pick and make kind and gentler fun at Carl, every chance I get.
Hawk 2 uh?
Carl, next time just say….. ‘dave, this one is for you!’ 😂
You madcat!!!
Nope nope nope. The Ancient World shall be so fricken big. Massive. Massive. 8 languages. Realism. Religions. A flat universe with earths realm protected by the biredome and the Wall of Amon. Its all encompassing of all human conspiracy, history and astrology. The 24-book universe is the future of literature and film. Star Wars will be put to rest. Harry Potter will be a ruined IP after HBO makes it again. LotR has already shat the bed long ago. The world has died of hunger from the death of great story, of great sorrow from pages.
The world needs a new…. Massive, endless universe that seems to never end, in its landscape, in its history, it its endless novels.
You almost got me!!! I almost put all 24 books reduced down to 1.7 books instead!! You MAD cat!!!😅