If you liked this video, check out my Story Grid series: th-cam.com/play/PLte6jZwxpFsXb2UpZIcKnAOw4eROv4TGU.html I went through the ENTIRE Story Grid process with one of my books!
Thank you so much for watching!! :) Btw I think (know) I need to update this PDF & have it on my to-do list! If you find anything that seems incorrect or broken, please feel free to let me know! 🙏
As others have mentioned, the Story Grid method is primarily for editing and revising a novel (note the book’s subtitle). But it discusses the Five-Leaf Genre Clover at length, which is an immensely helpful technique for preparing a draft. Skip the rest until you’ve finished a draft and it’s ready for revision.
I really appreciate you talking about it as "plot archetype" instead of "genre" - the genre part was tripping me up. I'm going to do the same with the new John Truby book I picked up on genre.
YES! I got the term from Brandon Sanderson and it makes so much more sense to my brain, especially when we're talking about books that blend 2-4 "genres"
(Story nerd from the UK, here - old granny writer). I found your channel today, Nicole. I agree with much that you say about Story Grid, and, like some of the commenters, I use it more as an editing tool. The point you made about preferring 'plot archetype' rather than 'genre' - absolutely agree. I cannot stuff my Fantasy/Mystery novel into the 'genre' glass slipper! Story Grid, I think, comes into its own after all the hard work of writing the draft, that tells the story we want to tell, has been done. It allows us to view the story dispassionately, scientifically - like a surgeon. All good wishes to you. Happy Writing!
Thank you so much! That's such a great way to frame it: looking at it scientifically like a surgeon. I've really started using it more as an editing tool now too. Happy writing to you!
I temporarily switched the story grid for Harmons Story Cicle. They’re fairly similar, but what I don’t like about SG is that it’s so much to keep track of all at once that I found myself confused about what is or isn’t supposed to go where and thus I spend more time fiddling with values and variables than coming up with the story.
Haha true! I've used the story circle before too - have a video somewhere. Honestly, neither one has been amazingly successful for me, I think because of exactly what you said...I fiddle with the values & variables too much and then those aren't necessarily perfectly reflected in my actual writing curious what resources you're using for story circle? Is there a book? I think I went off a YT video :)
I love the "Story Grid," but I agree with you that it is not a one-stop shop. It really is more of an editing guide and not an outlining tool. I like you have used it for outlining, but I was very unhappy with my ending pay-off. The best thing I continually use is the five commandments for scene structure. It gives me a fast way to outline a chapter when I need to prepare to write it. I used the outline I created using Story Grid to write my first novel (in the first draft stage at this time -- awaiting edit - finished mid-October). I started a NaNoWriMo project (2nd Nocewl in this Universe preceded the first work in time but has one character in both.) basing my original outline on the foolscap, but ran across the "Save the Cat" method and jumped on that about a week into my work. I spent an afternoon moving my obligatory scenes from my external and internal genres (Story Grid), and it opened up my story -- and helped me see where my Ending Payoff on my first novel fell apart. I have been using the Five Commandments to outline each chapter as I do a bit of discovery writing. I also used the Story Grid to analyze a masterwork (Dune by Frank Herbert), and it opened up how this work was put together and helped me see where I needed to work on my story(ies). I see Story Grid as a grat help and am planning on beginning my Editing process (mid-December to early January) by using the spreadsheet. I think this is a useful tool. When I was analyzing Dune, which I had read several times, I could separate the work from my love of the book. I could see why Shawn recommends the spreadsheet because it moves one out of the prose to see how you have put a story together. This is his main goal in the Story Grid, and we ambitious people (you and I) have attempted to use it for outlining. I agree with you. The best way is to find several different ways. I think the next time I will attempt to outline a plot, I will begin with "Save the Cat." Go back to my content genres (What you label as plot archetypes -- a good way to think of them) from Coyne's book to see that I have the obligatory scenes and conventions, then start the manuscript. Overall, I think our analysis of this book is great. I give if a great bit of credit, as I read it just as I was beginning my journey on really jumping into the writing scene and it gave me the structure without a lot of crazy analysis. I am reading "Story" by McKee right now, and I am thinking this would be a good book to read alongside because he also uses the five commandments but so far hasn't called them that. You mentioned someone who had a good video on scene structure (something I am attempting to work on right now) was that "Michelle Schusterman" that you mentioned below? Best of luck in your writer journey.
I totally agree with you. The "Five Commandments" are very much the most valuable thing I took from Story Grid. I will always credit it with teaching me to write scenes: to create turning points and decision points and that led to one of the biggest, quickest jumps in the quality of my writing. I'm also planning on using the Story Grid in Jan/Feb to help me edit this project! I like how you describe it as "moving out of the prose." I think using it for editing will really help with those sort of "kill your darlings" moments. "Story" by McKee is on my list! And yes, Michelle Schusterman has really excellent writing videos! Best of luck to you too! Thanks for your detailed comment, so cool to hear others' perspectives and experiences!
Wow, I did the exact same thing with my two-protagonist story and Brandon Sanderson’s plot archetypes. My story was a mess until I broke it up into its three plot archetypes, one for each character and a love story binding the two plots together. So cool to hear you say you did the same thing with Brandon’s method. I agree that thinking of it like a plot archetype is so much more helpful. Save the Cat calls it genres too, but I just translate that into archetype, and we’re good to go.
Great perspective. Very helpful for someone just getting into story grid. I already have my first novel finished and revised pretty much to my ability, and I think StoryGrid will be really helpful to analyze it through a fundamental and professional lens. Glad to hear you say, "Don't use just one method." People often think they've figured out the unified theory, a single, best way to do things, but they're wrong if simply for the fact that other people think and work differently. Thanks!
This is a great video. I’m studying writing and Story Grid really stands out. It’s great to hear the other side / weaknesses / blind spots of it, because it does seem to be quite unique and powerful otherwise
Agreed! It is super powerful and offers lots of value! But no one method can be perfect for everyone :) I know elements of their methodology have evolved since I posted this video as well
story gridding saved my story recently, helped me figure out which scenes and concepts were missing or not tying together- also showed the missing gaps in character growth which was cool. doing a character growth grid i think would be a sick addition or option for editting
Totally agree! I found it needs to somehow find a way to incorporate Swain’s MRU and Scene and Sequel for better cause and effect and character development. I ended up doing a hybrid of the two and my story felt better for it. So, I use Story grids dilemma as the beginning of Swain’s Sequel unit but I keep it short. For general scene structure, storygrid is phenominal. My scenes feel complete.
Ooo I HAVE to check out Swain's Scene and Sequel. What does MRU stand for? That sounds like something my writing would benefit from! I LOVE doing hybrids of different schools of advice! I totally agree, scene structure from story grid totally levelled my writing up!
Story grid seems amazing for scripts and novels written chronologically, but if your *novel* contains a lot of flashbacks and/or winding prose then it's a bear to use. I do like how it gives a guideline on what to evaluate in a scene. That's a gem.
Good, insightful video! I like how you discussed your experience with a popular methodology, giving it a personal evaluation, and backing up why you feel it did/didn't work for you. These kinds of videos are always interesting and helpful :)
Aww thank you so much! And I'm so glad you found it helpful! I think there are so many different methodologies that, in the end, everyone ends up with their own hodge-podged versions :)
Story Grid has a lot of good advice, mainly unteaching us bad habits that we learned in school, but each writer is unique. What works for some won't work for all. Here's my process, but I can't tell you if it's good because I've never gotten anything published. It's just helped me get words on a page quickly. Brainstorm until you have a one sentence story idea: Create a detailed outline via zero drafting--now that AI's a thing, you have it help you using something called the fractal technique, or you can just use the older version of that--the snowflake method--and do it yourself. Break your outline into a chapter-by-chapter guide and continue to fill in details Go back and continue adding details until you have a first draft. Edit the first draft--go back and add detail, polish, line edit, etc. Get a friend to read it, rinse and repeat.
Yup. You hit the nail on the head. These types of structures are really more of an organizational / editing tool. You can memorize them and then call upon them when you're plotting (say you're stuck after Act I and you remember there is a fun and games section so that knowledge triggers scene ideas) but if you actually try to use them as a fill-in-the-blank tool (which I've seen a lot of people do) then you're missing so much of your plot.
I'm roughly 2/3 the way through the Story Grid book, and I've watched many videos. For me, they are taking something (writing a book) and making it more complicated than it is. To your point and why it didn't work for you, I can't imagine using it alone for writing a story. I can see using it as sort of a check list after the first draft, however. Save the Cat Writes a Novel is far more down to earth and something I can get my head around. I'm glad that I happened across your video because as I've gone through story grid, I've struggled with how I'd actually use it.
I totally understand that feeling, and agree that STC is far more "user friendly." There's definitely stuff that's helpful but I do think a good chunk of story grid is story theory - and that's totally valid, but it can way overcomplicate stuff for writers
I like the idea of spreadsheets for keeping track of things. I find Story Grid a bit fiddling to actually use simply because it’s so much to keep track of before you do anything with the story. The 8-beat Harmon Cicle seems pretty solid as does STC if done alongside strong character and world building sections.
Excellent. I'm taking the information from the storygrid site and adding notes to my 2nd brain on writing technique. The same with K.M. Weiland's website/videos and many other sources (including you 😃) . I'm always careful when I feel something is wrong in case I'm suffering from bias, so thanks for clearing some of that up. Love and light.
My first story mixes a dozen genres, so in extreme cases like this, your insights are plotting each thread/subplot separately for progression become mandatory. I use Scrivener to write. The binder (nested structure holding the content of my book) is my living outline. I keep all my threads/subplots together in separate folders so I can track their progression. For scenes that connect between multiple subplots, I add thread name prefixes into the name. Then I thread them together as I write that part of a book.
Ooo yes with so many genres, threads would be even more important!! Cool to hear your process. I haven't gotten into Scrivener but it definitely sounds like a great system!! Also love the thread name prefixes...that's smart...I may use that idea :)
@@NicoleWilburI highly recommend scriviner because of its flexibility. I could not have written my book without it. The villains plan on my next book is really complex. With my ADHD, I'm writing scenes across my entire series. I can store pre-written stuff and notes into buckets and slot them in later.
So true! I started using it after my first draft was done, and the TH-cam page where Tim gives the lessons, so for me I was like holy crap this is what I needed.
I'm glad I saw this video. I guess I'm not the only one having some issues with the Story Grid. I get what they're saying, but I find that some of my plot ideas really don't fit that neatly into one Content Genre/Plot Archetype. And yes, although Story Grid is helpful in some ways and as a way to analyze a completed draft, it's not that great for construction of the character or how the plot relates to the character. I have a friend who says that if you get stuck on your writing, return to what your best element in the story is. For example, mine happens to be setting: so, if I get stuck, I try to remember how the story relates to the setting etc. Hers happens to be character, if she gets stuck, she always returns to the character to ask what happens next etc. And yeah, it doesn't always help to model your work on one specific type of process. I tried the Three Story Method by J. Thorn as well as The Story Equation by Susan May Warren. They have some of the same basic ideas as Story Grid, but they focus more on plot construction and character journey, respectively. I agree that Story Grid has too much to keep track of, and that it's not always possible to use that model to construct a story. I get lost in all the new terms and acronyms and such that it *takes the joy away from writing*. I get exasperated. The Story Grid seems to be for people who are more mathematically inclined than most writers are. I'm about emotion and raw feelings and reaction rather than thinking and logic and calculation. And I'm willing to bet most writers are like me. So thank you for putting this video up here, I'm glad I'm not the only one struggling with it.
I'm glad you found it relatable!! I love that advice to go back to the best element...I've found myself following that a lot. Or rather, asking "where's the conflict?" and just going from there. I haven't heard of those books, excited to add them to my list!! Haha there's definitely good stuff but I totally get the exasperation :)
I use Story Grid for creating my story, but I do modify it a little becuase as you mention, there needs to be motivations and change for your character. Story Grid does this, if you understand what is supposed to be happening in each of those four quadrants. There's a micro layer, a middle layer and an overall arc. The bottom line of course is that the best way for you to write your story is the way that works best for you.
Thanks for this video. I just watched the first five videos about StoryGrid. The first one essentially says you have to start with at least your first draft of the novel. So your advice is timely for me before I try, yet again, to outline my story. Next I'm going to watch your video about how you *_did_* outline your novel. Oh and now I am *SUBSCRIBED!*
What a great video series to start off with! If you’re interested in hearing more about how to use the Story Grid to outline, I suggest These articles: storygrid.com/using-the-story-grid-to-outline/ storygrid.com/how-to-outline-a-novel/ And the podcast episodes 186, 21, and all the ones on the Masterwork experiment. Thanks for watching!
(The Masterwork experiment is a bit different. They use analysis of another masterwork as a basis for a new story...would never suggest outlining a story beat by beat 😂 but I found it valuable nonetheless)
Fair point. Stands to reason that not every writer will respond the same to each bit of advice. Personally I find an editor’s insights to be invaluable, though it seems to impede my forward progress as I’m an over-thinker. C’est la vie
Oh absolutely! There's so much value in the story grid ! It completely changed how I wrote...but exactly -- when I relied on it exclusively -- I started overthinking, arguably about the wrong things for the point in the process I was in & found how *I* used the story grid ineffective
These are great points. I think story grid is good to use for developing how the story unfolds once you have the story. And it's great for using on a scene level.
@13:05 Quote: "It is not a good idea to rely on one methodology or just one craft book because every writer will need a slightly different process and every book will need a slightly different process." YES! This, this, this and this again. I'm currently using "Story Engineering: Mastering the 6 Core Competencies of Successful Writing" by Larry Brooks as a process for doing my pre-first draft story planning, but it certainly won't be the only resource I use to write my novel. I'm also subscribed to the Story Grid TH-cam channel, I have other books about writing scenes and creating characters, and I'm always on the lookout for new methods of approaching problems that come up in my work. Methods are not magic bullets that can magically produce great novels. They are experiments to try out, find out what works for your project and abandon the rest.
Absolutely!! It's funny how the marketing of these books ("the only book you'll ever need!") actually kind of undercuts their usefulness! I'm super interested in your process using Story Engineering - I didn't take a lot of concrete lessons from that book but I know people love it. How are you using it? I also love the concept of these methods as experiments - yes, yes, yes!
@@NicoleWilbur I take notes while reading each part then do the exercises at the end of each part. Once I complete the exercises, I go back the to concept questions I created at the end of Part 2 and use what I've learned in the most recent section to refine my concept questions so that by the time I've finished the book, I should have a story "blueprint". It won't be a full outline, but it will give me a more developed idea of what my story will look like.
During the first part of this, I found myself thinking "but obviously it doesn't tell you that!", so I think the conclusion you came to, of not relying only on one source, is right. I think most people naturally get some parts of story-telling, so they don't bother to explain them because they're "obvious", when they're not obvious to everyone. So you need to look at a view different resources to cover all of the blindspots the writers of those resources have. For me, I didn't think of using the story grid to plan a story. I wrestled with the story I was developing to try to fit it into a structure to make the whole thing stronger, and it worked. I found myself thinking, okay, my predominant genre is a love story, so if that's what I want it to be, the three big story turns need to be about the love between these two characters and the decisions they make because of it. Other stuff happens that also affects them, but if I don't treat their love like it's the point of the story then it won't be. For me, Dwight V. Swain's scene structure of Goal -> Complications -> Setback (crisis, in the Story Grid) -> Immediate Reaction -> Dilemma -> Decision is making more sense. The second half, of reaction to dilemma to decision, can be very short, maybe even a sentence, but still, thinking about it in those terms worked better for me than thinking of a climax and resolution. I don't really get where the crisis, climax, and resolution separate. I'm now thinking that the 'climax' of a scene might actually be in terms of the POV character's goal, OR the conflict, OR the decision. The decision the character makes might actually be the resolution of the scene instead. For instance, I just wrote a scene where my POV character is at a meeting of lords, watching the attendees, with the goal of figuring out who he can trust or not. The attendees have an argument, which comes to a climax, but my POV character doesn't achieve his goal because he still has reasons to trust or distrust everyone. He has to make a decision based on his lack of information. You could arguably say, well, that's his crisis, but then the climax takes place in a whole other scene.:/ It makes more sense for me to have the conflict reach a climax, the POV character react to his setback - realise he can't trust anyone - and then debate with himself and make a decision about what to do next, which sets up the goal for his next scene. Coyne never says it, as far as I know, but I think the five point structure only makes sense if it overlaps, so the climax or resolution of one scene, for example, might be the inciting incident of another. Swain talks in terms of scenes - the above is actually two scenes, one proactive and one reactive, but I think of them as one long sequence which can be split if desired - and I'm just at the start of thinking about whether that feels right for overall story structure. I have noticed that some scenes are entire reactions to other scenes, even though they have their own proactive structure (goal, etc etc) separate from the earlier scene. One thing that I am struggling with is the story grid's value shifts. I get the basic premise, and I can feel when I get it right. I'm excited to write the scene and it's really fun to work up to the shift in value and imagine springing it on a reader. Almost like writing a plot twist. But I feel like they keep giving us examples of values but there's no full list anyway, so when I'm asking "does this scene have a shift in value?" I have to keep questioning "is that a value? Is that a shift in it?". Something just isn't clicking for me. I actually found your video when looking for more content on that, to see if more explanation and examples helped. Paul Tomlinson's Eight Sequences is another concept I've found useful for overall structure, along with the story grid and Randy Ingermanson's three disasters and a resolution.
I’ve been wondering if SG’s dilemma, crisis, resolution is actually Swain’s Sequel unit. Not sure at all but I sometimes treat it as such. In Swains Sequel, POV confirms his new goal..which is what happens at the Resolution point in SG. In other words, I wonder if an SG scene is a modern version of Swain in that one SG scene combines Scene Sequel into one. If you need to separate, you can too.
It might help to define value as meaning. What has meaning for your protagonist? Does that meaning change bc of the action in the scene? Perhaps you get stymied bc your childhood definition of values was unchangeable. Some belief systems tend to insist that values don't change, when real life insists upon change and growth in meaning.
Each writer's method is their method. This should be a maxim. There's really no one way that works for everyone. Ever writer has to find their own unique way of writing stories. Steven King is famous for being a pantser. In a recent interview, he was asked if he ever plotted stories, and he said it never worked for him. On the other end of the spectrum is Robert Ludlum, who is famous for plotting his novels. And still there are a lot of writers who are in the middle, who mix plotting and pantsing. And even plotting itself has different approaches and models. In the end, whatever works for someone is what works for them. :)
Another craft book/resource I need to check out!! Thank you for the PDF as well. That'll be a great place to start as it looks like there's a ton out there about this method!
Thanks for this video! I try different methods to try on short stories by Chekov, Babel, Wolff, Munro, Atwood, and see what the methods fail to account for. Most of the methods behave like screen or stage writing, thinking too broadly. I notice that the great works begin in the sentence, or phrase, even, and aren't really like film. It's about language, about narrative thought. This is why writing can be interesting if you're a pantser, because feel out the possibilities of what might come next based on the the sentences that came before. Coherence develops, as does conflict, contrasts, tensions, and all the dramas of the page. Stories written from the top down, or from the outside in with methods like the Grid seem like they were. It's like draping the dead skin of a victim over a stick figure manikin. (That was a reference to Silence of the Lambs used in one of the Grid videos, of course.) So you're right -- never enslave yourself to a method, because it will always be incomplete.
Haha love the silence of the lambs reference - so relevant when it comes to story grid!! Really cool to hear you try out so many different methods. I will say I find intuitiveness for me really depends on the medium. I wrote a series of linked short stories very intuitively, from that flow state and just let everything happen organically. With novels, there's so much I'm pulling in every tool I can think of to get the structure/plot right. With stage plays, I do a mix of both.
The guy who does the Story Grid TH-cam channel sounds sometimes like he's in a cult to me. He said there is an objectively right way to tell a good story too, which I think is just insane. I'm not really interested in frameworks. I think I usually start with a point I want to make, then I build a conflict around that in a way that won't seem like a lazy straw man. The world and the characters have to sufficiently challenge the protagonists, or the premise, and then it will logically follow that the audience is challenged as well. Probably the simplest way I can put this is to approach everything with the postscript "Not necessarily."
I love that as a postscript - it really solves a lot of problems with writing advice :) SO cool that you work from the point you're making/the theme etc. That's a great way to approach it! Yeah, I do think a few of the big time stroy-gridders are practically religious about it
I'm a huge fan of John Truby's Anatomy of Story & Save The Cat Writes A Novel by Jessica Brody but I just stumbled across the Story Grid, curious to see what it says! Loved the video!
Immediate Fiction by Jerry Cleaver and Larry Brooks Story Structure are probably the two best books that helped me understand the what and why of plotting a story.
I have tried Story Grid from the book but although parts of it make sense, I find some parts overly proscriptive. This may be because I am a pantser but I am not going to change my writing style just to obey some tool. That would defeat the main reason I am a pantser.
I feel like there's a positioning problem with Story Grid as well - from memory (and admittedly, it's been a while!) at the beginning of the book I think he sells it as the only resource you'll ever need. The problem with this is that if this is your sales pitch, it should be a standalone resource, not something that should be used as a compliment to others. My faves are still Save the Cat (higher level, but when I went through it I felt like I could have written a book using it alone) and Story Engineering. 😊
I definitely agree! I think there can be issues with any book that's selling itself as 'the only way' to write a story or 'the only resource' because I really do think the helpfulness of a resource depends on the writer, as well as the book you're writing! These are on my list to check out as well :)
Story grid isn't supposed to help you write a story. It helps you edit. It's not fair to say that it failed in that respect when that's not what it's for.....
Hey, fair comment :) I’m going to guess you didn’t watch much of the video (again, fair). Basically, my aim was to reflect on why it’s not a great outlining tool and why I shouldn’t have relied on it for that - I say that *I* went wrong with the Story Grid more than the Story Grid inherently failed. Shawn Coyne et al DO advocate creating the Foolscap and using certain other Story Grid elements to plan your novel (numerous blog posts, episodes on this) but you’re completely right in that it is originally an analysis/editing tool (which I mention around 03:55). I know the title is a bit click-baity and not quite hitting the nail on the head with what the video is about so I totally understand where you’re coming from! The story grid is a GREAT editing tool and completely transformed my writing - I have some very positive videos on it as well 🙂
It's pronounced "fool's cap," not "fool scap." Comes from the size of paper used (8" x 13" or 8.5" x 13.5"), which traditionally bore a jester's cap watermark.
It was kind of hard to follow this as you tend to speak very fast for me but I'm beginning to feel daunted by writing my story because apparently it's this really complicated convoluted world of structures and rules leaving me feeling like instead of telling a story, rather writers just enjoy making the process as complex a puzzle to figure out as possible. Let's just invent problems to solve for the sake of solving a problem sort of thing. These are all new concepts to me and it's confusing my process more i think lol
Oops yup...I speak very fast. I've started slowing my videos down a bit to fix that now I totally get it. Two things that might be helpful: 1. Story Grid is meant for editing, really. If you're in the middle of a first draft (and especially if it's a first first draf), ditch it until you're finished 2. No system is the be-all, end-all of story. Even after the first draft stage, if it's not working for you or you find it convoluted, don't use it. Story Grid is one of if not the most theoretical termonology-focused craft books out there. Studying story structure is a good idea - but maybe go w something simpler: like three acts with two pinch points and two plot points.
I have found in my writing that I have to write what I want, first. Everything else is a set of cubby holes in which to fit what I already have to make the story more acceptable to the public. Tell your story the way you want to, Disco Bean. Remove the confusion by following your heart. The problems to be solved are someone else's work, not ours.
@@GeorgiaGabet-sb7wv Thank you!!! Some one I was sort of collaborating with or ping ponging ideas of briefly had found alot of things in my story they did not like or questioned.... I forced me to take an honest look and decided in the end there were a few things I had kept from the original version of the story and altered to make a less confusing plot. But then it made me realize it's my story and I can change anything! So now unfortunately I'm stuck in this unending rut of exploring possible other big changes to make a more interesting story or less confusing or my favourite - a story that "has a point". Now that I realize the options are limitless I'm like... "Hmmm that's an interesting idea" or finding myself gravitating towards completely reverting back to an ending that's more similar to original where the two characters end up reuniting later in life and living happily ever after (obviously they don't, now, which is more realistic). I've got so many possible versions n my head now I'm stuck trying to figure out now wth I am actually trying to say. This younger person thought my character hasn't struggled enough and I needed to create more barriers for him to have overcome to be relatable or likable -- and then the person who knew nothing about my story who was aged for the audience of readers of the era my story takes place criticized the idea as being a tired over-done trope and suggested a happier scenario. Oy. That's why I was like ya know what? I must be on the right track with what I have. I still have no idea how to structure my story or what the arcs are or rising action or purpose is... i often question now why my main character is stuck and never gets together with the other character (who hasn't struggled enough). Character #2 *has* to die, right- like... No one would believe if he didn't. Although I do heartily fantasize about original version where the two reunite many years later and DO get together.
It looks like you're showing too many people your work before you're done with what you want to say for yourself. One of the biggest rules of writing is to Keep Silent until the story is on the page. These other people are editors unless you consider them collaborators. Get what you want to say onto the page, first. All editors can do is take away from your story and frustrate you until you give up on the project altogether. A collaborator gets equal billing in the writing, so be careful whom you take into your confidence.Their professionalism should help get the story done, not add confusion. SG did say that it is better to start simple, so I suggest finding the base of what you wanted to say when you first started writing, back when the idea was fresh and exciting to you. Get that all onto the page, no matter how simple. Do not edit in any way, shape or form until the story is as complete as you can get it, or you will find yourself constantly editing, never finishing. Besides, You seem to have added a critic to your inner circle. That is dangerous! Critics are only your friends after the book, play, whatever is published- to give your work ad time and convince others to see for themselves. Once you've hit confusion, it's hard to figure out what you had wanted to say, originally. Been there. This reverts to the idea of values, but instead of looking at the characters' values, you have to look at your own. What has meaning to YOU? This meaning is what may have started the story in the first place. Writing should never be this hard. As beginners, we don't know this, and it's easy to fall into traps. Sometimes, it's just easier to trash it all and start over, but the difficulty level makes us wonder why we wanted to write at all. If there is a story inside you, don't give up until that story is satisfied. Starting over is not giving up- it's more like calling a do- over in a game so you can use what you have learned. Again, Style, Story Arcs, Rising Action, etc. are editing tools. You aren't at that point yet. They can only create confusion and frustration in a writer. Leave those tools for someone else at this point. May I suggest the simplest path at this stage? Live the story. You be the protagonist. Be your own hero. What would you do in this predicament? Such questions get the story onto the page. Then you have something to work with if you want to play with all the tools and opinions out there. The story comes first! No one ever tells us this, but they have a nasty sounding name for it: pantser- writing by the seat of your pants, making it up as you go along. Hint: all writers make stuff up, and nothing under the sun is ever new. Such a saying is daunting. How do YOU see the series of events? This is what reveals meaning- seeing with different eyes, a different perspective. This point of view is your personal style. You don't see the difference in perspective because you're living it, but it is there.
If you liked this video, check out my Story Grid series: th-cam.com/play/PLte6jZwxpFsXb2UpZIcKnAOw4eROv4TGU.html
I went through the ENTIRE Story Grid process with one of my books!
Btw, where is the PDF you referenced in the video? Thanks!
Great video! Thank you so much. I'm also wondering where I can find the PDF you mentioned in the video.
Here is the PDF www.nicolewilbur.com/post/a-super-simple-cheat-sheet-to-the-story-grid-universe
Thank you so much for watching!! :)
Btw I think (know) I need to update this PDF & have it on my to-do list! If you find anything that seems incorrect or broken, please feel free to let me know! 🙏
As others have mentioned, the Story Grid method is primarily for editing and revising a novel (note the book’s subtitle). But it discusses the Five-Leaf Genre Clover at length, which is an immensely helpful technique for preparing a draft. Skip the rest until you’ve finished a draft and it’s ready for revision.
I really appreciate you talking about it as "plot archetype" instead of "genre" - the genre part was tripping me up.
I'm going to do the same with the new John Truby book I picked up on genre.
YES! I got the term from Brandon Sanderson and it makes so much more sense to my brain, especially when we're talking about books that blend 2-4 "genres"
(Story nerd from the UK, here - old granny writer). I found your channel today, Nicole. I agree with much that you say about Story Grid, and, like some of the commenters, I use it more as an editing tool. The point you made about preferring 'plot archetype' rather than 'genre' - absolutely agree. I cannot stuff my Fantasy/Mystery novel into the 'genre' glass slipper! Story Grid, I think, comes into its own after all the hard work of writing the draft, that tells the story we want to tell, has been done. It allows us to view the story dispassionately, scientifically - like a surgeon. All good wishes to you. Happy Writing!
Thank you so much! That's such a great way to frame it: looking at it scientifically like a surgeon. I've really started using it more as an editing tool now too.
Happy writing to you!
I temporarily switched the story grid for Harmons Story Cicle. They’re fairly similar, but what I don’t like about SG is that it’s so much to keep track of all at once that I found myself confused about what is or isn’t supposed to go where and thus I spend more time fiddling with values and variables than coming up with the story.
Haha true! I've used the story circle before too - have a video somewhere. Honestly, neither one has been amazingly successful for me, I think because of exactly what you said...I fiddle with the values & variables too much and then those aren't necessarily perfectly reflected in my actual writing
curious what resources you're using for story circle? Is there a book? I think I went off a YT video :)
Exactly! This is why I stay away from the plot grids. Too much plotting, not enough writing.
I love the "Story Grid," but I agree with you that it is not a one-stop shop. It really is more of an editing guide and not an outlining tool. I like you have used it for outlining, but I was very unhappy with my ending pay-off. The best thing I continually use is the five commandments for scene structure. It gives me a fast way to outline a chapter when I need to prepare to write it. I used the outline I created using Story Grid to write my first novel (in the first draft stage at this time -- awaiting edit - finished mid-October).
I started a NaNoWriMo project (2nd Nocewl in this Universe preceded the first work in time but has one character in both.) basing my original outline on the foolscap, but ran across the "Save the Cat" method and jumped on that about a week into my work. I spent an afternoon moving my obligatory scenes from my external and internal genres (Story Grid), and it opened up my story -- and helped me see where my Ending Payoff on my first novel fell apart. I have been using the Five Commandments to outline each chapter as I do a bit of discovery writing.
I also used the Story Grid to analyze a masterwork (Dune by Frank Herbert), and it opened up how this work was put together and helped me see where I needed to work on my story(ies).
I see Story Grid as a grat help and am planning on beginning my Editing process (mid-December to early January) by using the spreadsheet. I think this is a useful tool. When I was analyzing Dune, which I had read several times, I could separate the work from my love of the book. I could see why Shawn recommends the spreadsheet because it moves one out of the prose to see how you have put a story together. This is his main goal in the Story Grid, and we ambitious people (you and I) have attempted to use it for outlining.
I agree with you. The best way is to find several different ways. I think the next time I will attempt to outline a plot, I will begin with "Save the Cat." Go back to my content genres (What you label as plot archetypes -- a good way to think of them) from Coyne's book to see that I have the obligatory scenes and conventions, then start the manuscript.
Overall, I think our analysis of this book is great. I give if a great bit of credit, as I read it just as I was beginning my journey on really jumping into the writing scene and it gave me the structure without a lot of crazy analysis. I am reading "Story" by McKee right now, and I am thinking this would be a good book to read alongside because he also uses the five commandments but so far hasn't called them that.
You mentioned someone who had a good video on scene structure (something I am attempting to work on right now) was that "Michelle Schusterman" that you mentioned below?
Best of luck in your writer journey.
I totally agree with you. The "Five Commandments" are very much the most valuable thing I took from Story Grid. I will always credit it with teaching me to write scenes: to create turning points and decision points and that led to one of the biggest, quickest jumps in the quality of my writing.
I'm also planning on using the Story Grid in Jan/Feb to help me edit this project! I like how you describe it as "moving out of the prose." I think using it for editing will really help with those sort of "kill your darlings" moments.
"Story" by McKee is on my list! And yes, Michelle Schusterman has really excellent writing videos!
Best of luck to you too! Thanks for your detailed comment, so cool to hear others' perspectives and experiences!
Wow, I did the exact same thing with my two-protagonist story and Brandon Sanderson’s plot archetypes. My story was a mess until I broke it up into its three plot archetypes, one for each character and a love story binding the two plots together. So cool to hear you say you did the same thing with Brandon’s method. I agree that thinking of it like a plot archetype is so much more helpful. Save the Cat calls it genres too, but I just translate that into archetype, and we’re good to go.
Ahh yes! I love that it helped you too!
I do love plot archetypes...it generally helps me un-confuse myself!
Great perspective. Very helpful for someone just getting into story grid. I already have my first novel finished and revised pretty much to my ability, and I think StoryGrid will be really helpful to analyze it through a fundamental and professional lens. Glad to hear you say, "Don't use just one method." People often think they've figured out the unified theory, a single, best way to do things, but they're wrong if simply for the fact that other people think and work differently.
Thanks!
So exciting that you have your first novel finished!!
Glad you enjoyed it :)
This is a great video. I’m studying writing and Story Grid really stands out. It’s great to hear the other side / weaknesses / blind spots of it, because it does seem to be quite unique and powerful otherwise
Agreed! It is super powerful and offers lots of value! But no one method can be perfect for everyone :) I know elements of their methodology have evolved since I posted this video as well
Thank you for sharing your story grid compilation. Very awesome and helpful of you.
Yay! So glad it was useful :)
story gridding saved my story recently, helped me figure out which scenes and concepts were missing or not tying together- also showed the missing gaps in character growth which was cool. doing a character growth grid i think would be a sick addition or option for editting
That's amazing!!! Definitely love the idea of the character growth grid too
Totally agree! I found it needs to somehow find a way to incorporate Swain’s MRU and Scene and Sequel for better cause and effect and character development. I ended up doing a hybrid of the two and my story felt better for it. So, I use Story grids dilemma as the beginning of Swain’s Sequel unit but I keep it short. For general scene structure, storygrid is phenominal. My scenes feel complete.
Ooo I HAVE to check out Swain's Scene and Sequel. What does MRU stand for? That sounds like something my writing would benefit from! I LOVE doing hybrids of different schools of advice! I totally agree, scene structure from story grid totally levelled my writing up!
Story grid seems amazing for scripts and novels written chronologically, but if your *novel* contains a lot of flashbacks and/or winding prose then it's a bear to use. I do like how it gives a guideline on what to evaluate in a scene. That's a gem.
Totally agree! The scene-level stuff is really useful!
Good, insightful video! I like how you discussed your experience with a popular methodology, giving it a personal evaluation, and backing up why you feel it did/didn't work for you. These kinds of videos are always interesting and helpful :)
Aww thank you so much! And I'm so glad you found it helpful! I think there are so many different methodologies that, in the end, everyone ends up with their own hodge-podged versions :)
Story Grid has a lot of good advice, mainly unteaching us bad habits that we learned in school, but each writer is unique. What works for some won't work for all. Here's my process, but I can't tell you if it's good because I've never gotten anything published. It's just helped me get words on a page quickly.
Brainstorm until you have a one sentence story idea:
Create a detailed outline via zero drafting--now that AI's a thing, you have it help you using something called the fractal technique, or you can just use the older version of that--the snowflake method--and do it yourself.
Break your outline into a chapter-by-chapter guide and continue to fill in details
Go back and continue adding details until you have a first draft.
Edit the first draft--go back and add detail, polish, line edit, etc. Get a friend to read it, rinse and repeat.
Niceee!! That seems like such a fun process! Totally with you on the importance of getting words on the page quickly :)
Yup. You hit the nail on the head. These types of structures are really more of an organizational / editing tool. You can memorize them and then call upon them when you're plotting (say you're stuck after Act I and you remember there is a fun and games section so that knowledge triggers scene ideas) but if you actually try to use them as a fill-in-the-blank tool (which I've seen a lot of people do) then you're missing so much of your plot.
Haha the promise of fill-in-the-blank never seems to work out 😜!
I'm roughly 2/3 the way through the Story Grid book, and I've watched many videos. For me, they are taking something (writing a book) and making it more complicated than it is. To your point and why it didn't work for you, I can't imagine using it alone for writing a story. I can see using it as sort of a check list after the first draft, however. Save the Cat Writes a Novel is far more down to earth and something I can get my head around. I'm glad that I happened across your video because as I've gone through story grid, I've struggled with how I'd actually use it.
I totally understand that feeling, and agree that STC is far more "user friendly." There's definitely stuff that's helpful but I do think a good chunk of story grid is story theory - and that's totally valid, but it can way overcomplicate stuff for writers
I like the idea of spreadsheets for keeping track of things. I find Story Grid a bit fiddling to actually use simply because it’s so much to keep track of before you do anything with the story. The 8-beat Harmon Cicle seems pretty solid as does STC if done alongside strong character and world building sections.
Excellent. I'm taking the information from the storygrid site and adding notes to my 2nd brain on writing technique. The same with K.M. Weiland's website/videos and many other sources (including you 😃) . I'm always careful when I feel something is wrong in case I'm suffering from bias, so thanks for clearing some of that up. Love and light.
Love the concept of the writing technique brain :) cheers!
My first story mixes a dozen genres, so in extreme cases like this, your insights are plotting each thread/subplot separately for progression become mandatory.
I use Scrivener to write. The binder (nested structure holding the content of my book) is my living outline. I keep all my threads/subplots together in separate folders so I can track their progression. For scenes that connect between multiple subplots, I add thread name prefixes into the name. Then I thread them together as I write that part of a book.
Ooo yes with so many genres, threads would be even more important!! Cool to hear your process. I haven't gotten into Scrivener but it definitely sounds like a great system!!
Also love the thread name prefixes...that's smart...I may use that idea :)
@@NicoleWilburI highly recommend scriviner because of its flexibility. I could not have written my book without it. The villains plan on my next book is really complex. With my ADHD, I'm writing scenes across my entire series. I can store pre-written stuff and notes into buckets and slot them in later.
So true! I started using it after my first draft was done, and the TH-cam page where Tim gives the lessons, so for me I was like holy crap this is what I needed.
That's awesome!! I find it so helpful for editing too :)
I'm glad I saw this video. I guess I'm not the only one having some issues with the Story Grid. I get what they're saying, but I find that some of my plot ideas really don't fit that neatly into one Content Genre/Plot Archetype.
And yes, although Story Grid is helpful in some ways and as a way to analyze a completed draft, it's not that great for construction of the character or how the plot relates to the character.
I have a friend who says that if you get stuck on your writing, return to what your best element in the story is. For example, mine happens to be setting: so, if I get stuck, I try to remember how the story relates to the setting etc. Hers happens to be character, if she gets stuck, she always returns to the character to ask what happens next etc.
And yeah, it doesn't always help to model your work on one specific type of process. I tried the Three Story Method by J. Thorn as well as The Story Equation by Susan May Warren. They have some of the same basic ideas as Story Grid, but they focus more on plot construction and character journey, respectively.
I agree that Story Grid has too much to keep track of, and that it's not always possible to use that model to construct a story. I get lost in all the new terms and acronyms and such that it *takes the joy away from writing*. I get exasperated.
The Story Grid seems to be for people who are more mathematically inclined than most writers are. I'm about emotion and raw feelings and reaction rather than thinking and logic and calculation. And I'm willing to bet most writers are like me.
So thank you for putting this video up here, I'm glad I'm not the only one struggling with it.
I'm glad you found it relatable!! I love that advice to go back to the best element...I've found myself following that a lot. Or rather, asking "where's the conflict?" and just going from there.
I haven't heard of those books, excited to add them to my list!!
Haha there's definitely good stuff but I totally get the exasperation :)
I use Story Grid for creating my story, but I do modify it a little becuase as you mention, there needs to be motivations and change for your character. Story Grid does this, if you understand what is supposed to be happening in each of those four quadrants. There's a micro layer, a middle layer and an overall arc. The bottom line of course is that the best way for you to write your story is the way that works best for you.
Love that you get so much out of this resource !!
Thanks for the PDF Nicole!
You are so welcome!
Thanks for this video. I just watched the first five videos about StoryGrid. The first one essentially says you have to start with at least your first draft of the novel. So your advice is timely for me before I try, yet again, to outline my story. Next I'm going to watch your video about how you *_did_* outline your novel.
Oh and now I am *SUBSCRIBED!*
What a great video series to start off with! If you’re interested in hearing more about how to use the Story Grid to outline, I suggest
These articles:
storygrid.com/using-the-story-grid-to-outline/
storygrid.com/how-to-outline-a-novel/
And the podcast episodes 186, 21, and all the ones on the Masterwork experiment. Thanks for watching!
(The Masterwork experiment is a bit different. They use analysis of another masterwork as a basis for a new story...would never suggest outlining a story beat by beat 😂 but I found it valuable nonetheless)
Fair point. Stands to reason that not every writer will respond the same to each bit of advice. Personally I find an editor’s insights to be invaluable, though it seems to impede my forward progress as I’m an over-thinker. C’est la vie
Oh absolutely! There's so much value in the story grid ! It completely changed how I wrote...but exactly -- when I relied on it exclusively -- I started overthinking, arguably about the wrong things for the point in the process I was in & found how *I* used the story grid ineffective
These are great points. I think story grid is good to use for developing how the story unfolds once you have the story. And it's great for using on a scene level.
@13:05 Quote: "It is not a good idea to rely on one methodology or just one craft book because every writer will need a slightly different process and every book will need a slightly different process."
YES! This, this, this and this again.
I'm currently using "Story Engineering: Mastering the 6 Core Competencies of Successful Writing" by Larry Brooks as a process for doing my pre-first draft story planning, but it certainly won't be the only resource I use to write my novel. I'm also subscribed to the Story Grid TH-cam channel, I have other books about writing scenes and creating characters, and I'm always on the lookout for new methods of approaching problems that come up in my work.
Methods are not magic bullets that can magically produce great novels. They are experiments to try out, find out what works for your project and abandon the rest.
Absolutely!! It's funny how the marketing of these books ("the only book you'll ever need!") actually kind of undercuts their usefulness!
I'm super interested in your process using Story Engineering - I didn't take a lot of concrete lessons from that book but I know people love it. How are you using it?
I also love the concept of these methods as experiments - yes, yes, yes!
@@NicoleWilbur I take notes while reading each part then do the exercises at the end of each part. Once I complete the exercises, I go back the to concept questions I created at the end of Part 2 and use what I've learned in the most recent section to refine my concept questions so that by the time I've finished the book, I should have a story "blueprint". It won't be a full outline, but it will give me a more developed idea of what my story will look like.
That's awesome!!! Thanks for sharing about it!
During the first part of this, I found myself thinking "but obviously it doesn't tell you that!", so I think the conclusion you came to, of not relying only on one source, is right. I think most people naturally get some parts of story-telling, so they don't bother to explain them because they're "obvious", when they're not obvious to everyone. So you need to look at a view different resources to cover all of the blindspots the writers of those resources have. For me, I didn't think of using the story grid to plan a story. I wrestled with the story I was developing to try to fit it into a structure to make the whole thing stronger, and it worked. I found myself thinking, okay, my predominant genre is a love story, so if that's what I want it to be, the three big story turns need to be about the love between these two characters and the decisions they make because of it. Other stuff happens that also affects them, but if I don't treat their love like it's the point of the story then it won't be.
For me, Dwight V. Swain's scene structure of Goal -> Complications -> Setback (crisis, in the Story Grid) -> Immediate Reaction -> Dilemma -> Decision is making more sense. The second half, of reaction to dilemma to decision, can be very short, maybe even a sentence, but still, thinking about it in those terms worked better for me than thinking of a climax and resolution. I don't really get where the crisis, climax, and resolution separate. I'm now thinking that the 'climax' of a scene might actually be in terms of the POV character's goal, OR the conflict, OR the decision. The decision the character makes might actually be the resolution of the scene instead. For instance, I just wrote a scene where my POV character is at a meeting of lords, watching the attendees, with the goal of figuring out who he can trust or not. The attendees have an argument, which comes to a climax, but my POV character doesn't achieve his goal because he still has reasons to trust or distrust everyone. He has to make a decision based on his lack of information. You could arguably say, well, that's his crisis, but then the climax takes place in a whole other scene.:/ It makes more sense for me to have the conflict reach a climax, the POV character react to his setback - realise he can't trust anyone - and then debate with himself and make a decision about what to do next, which sets up the goal for his next scene. Coyne never says it, as far as I know, but I think the five point structure only makes sense if it overlaps, so the climax or resolution of one scene, for example, might be the inciting incident of another.
Swain talks in terms of scenes - the above is actually two scenes, one proactive and one reactive, but I think of them as one long sequence which can be split if desired - and I'm just at the start of thinking about whether that feels right for overall story structure. I have noticed that some scenes are entire reactions to other scenes, even though they have their own proactive structure (goal, etc etc) separate from the earlier scene.
One thing that I am struggling with is the story grid's value shifts. I get the basic premise, and I can feel when I get it right. I'm excited to write the scene and it's really fun to work up to the shift in value and imagine springing it on a reader. Almost like writing a plot twist. But I feel like they keep giving us examples of values but there's no full list anyway, so when I'm asking "does this scene have a shift in value?" I have to keep questioning "is that a value? Is that a shift in it?". Something just isn't clicking for me. I actually found your video when looking for more content on that, to see if more explanation and examples helped.
Paul Tomlinson's Eight Sequences is another concept I've found useful for overall structure, along with the story grid and Randy Ingermanson's three disasters and a resolution.
I’ve been wondering if SG’s dilemma, crisis, resolution is actually Swain’s Sequel unit. Not sure at all but I sometimes treat it as such. In Swains Sequel, POV confirms his new goal..which is what happens at the Resolution point in SG. In other words, I wonder if an SG scene is a modern version of Swain in that one SG scene combines Scene Sequel into one. If you need to separate, you can too.
Ooh very cool! I will have to look into Swain!
It might help to define value as meaning. What has meaning for your protagonist? Does that meaning change bc of the action in the scene? Perhaps you get stymied bc your childhood definition of values was unchangeable. Some belief systems tend to insist that values don't change, when real life insists upon change and growth in meaning.
Your point around 5:15 or so, about how one of these tools should feel like it's fueling your story... Brilliant!
Haha that's so sweet! It's a good rule of thumb to find a good method I think!
Each writer's method is their method. This should be a maxim. There's really no one way that works for everyone. Ever writer has to find their own unique way of writing stories. Steven King is famous for being a pantser. In a recent interview, he was asked if he ever plotted stories, and he said it never worked for him. On the other end of the spectrum is Robert Ludlum, who is famous for plotting his novels. And still there are a lot of writers who are in the middle, who mix plotting and pantsing. And even plotting itself has different approaches and models. In the end, whatever works for someone is what works for them. :)
Another craft book/resource I need to check out!! Thank you for the PDF as well. That'll be a great place to start as it looks like there's a ton out there about this method!
It's a great one! Happy to throw in another suggestion haha :)
So relatable, I appreciate hearing your experiences!
Thanks for this video! I try different methods to try on short stories by Chekov, Babel, Wolff, Munro, Atwood, and see what the methods fail to account for. Most of the methods behave like screen or stage writing, thinking too broadly. I notice that the great works begin in the sentence, or phrase, even, and aren't really like film. It's about language, about narrative thought. This is why writing can be interesting if you're a pantser, because feel out the possibilities of what might come next based on the the sentences that came before. Coherence develops, as does conflict, contrasts, tensions, and all the dramas of the page. Stories written from the top down, or from the outside in with methods like the Grid seem like they were. It's like draping the dead skin of a victim over a stick figure manikin. (That was a reference to Silence of the Lambs used in one of the Grid videos, of course.) So you're right -- never enslave yourself to a method, because it will always be incomplete.
Haha love the silence of the lambs reference - so relevant when it comes to story grid!! Really cool to hear you try out so many different methods. I will say I find intuitiveness for me really depends on the medium. I wrote a series of linked short stories very intuitively, from that flow state and just let everything happen organically. With novels, there's so much I'm pulling in every tool I can think of to get the structure/plot right. With stage plays, I do a mix of both.
The guy who does the Story Grid TH-cam channel sounds sometimes like he's in a cult to me. He said there is an objectively right way to tell a good story too, which I think is just insane.
I'm not really interested in frameworks. I think I usually start with a point I want to make, then I build a conflict around that in a way that won't seem like a lazy straw man. The world and the characters have to sufficiently challenge the protagonists, or the premise, and then it will logically follow that the audience is challenged as well.
Probably the simplest way I can put this is to approach everything with the postscript "Not necessarily."
I love that as a postscript - it really solves a lot of problems with writing advice :)
SO cool that you work from the point you're making/the theme etc. That's a great way to approach it!
Yeah, I do think a few of the big time stroy-gridders are practically religious about it
I'm a huge fan of John Truby's Anatomy of Story & Save The Cat Writes A Novel by Jessica Brody but I just stumbled across the Story Grid, curious to see what it says! Loved the video!
I LOVE the Anatomy of Story and am hoping to try Save the Cat soon!!! It's definitely a great resource! Thank you :)
This is very helpful, Nicole. Thanks a lot!
Thank YOU! :)
Immediate Fiction by Jerry Cleaver and Larry Brooks Story Structure are probably the two best books that helped me understand the what and why of plotting a story.
Thank you so much for the recommendations! I will check these out :)
I have tried Story Grid from the book but although parts of it make sense, I find some parts overly proscriptive. This may be because I am a pantser but I am not going to change my writing style just to obey some tool. That would defeat the main reason I am a pantser.
Agree on some bits being overly prescriptive :)
What’s your ultimate favorite book on novel writing?
I really love the Anatomy of Story! Not only is the content great but it’s such a fun read!!!
@@NicoleWilbur How do you keep all that information straight in your head as you write?
Haha I definitely don't! But I try my best to plan ahead of time and incorporate stuff during editing
I feel like there's a positioning problem with Story Grid as well - from memory (and admittedly, it's been a while!) at the beginning of the book I think he sells it as the only resource you'll ever need. The problem with this is that if this is your sales pitch, it should be a standalone resource, not something that should be used as a compliment to others.
My faves are still Save the Cat (higher level, but when I went through it I felt like I could have written a book using it alone) and Story Engineering. 😊
I definitely agree! I think there can be issues with any book that's selling itself as 'the only way' to write a story or 'the only resource' because I really do think the helpfulness of a resource depends on the writer, as well as the book you're writing!
These are on my list to check out as well :)
I loved Save The Cat! And don't forget Story by Robert Mckee 😀
I find that the story grid is good for revisions but it isn't a plotting tool or for use when writing. Editing, it's good.
Totally agree!!
Story grid isn't supposed to help you write a story. It helps you edit. It's not fair to say that it failed in that respect when that's not what it's for.....
Hey, fair comment :) I’m going to guess you didn’t watch much of the video (again, fair). Basically, my aim was to reflect on why it’s not a great outlining tool and why I shouldn’t have relied on it for that - I say that *I* went wrong with the Story Grid more than the Story Grid inherently failed. Shawn Coyne et al DO advocate creating the Foolscap and using certain other Story Grid elements to plan your novel (numerous blog posts, episodes on this) but you’re completely right in that it is originally an analysis/editing tool (which I mention around 03:55). I know the title is a bit click-baity and not quite hitting the nail on the head with what the video is about so I totally understand where you’re coming from! The story grid is a GREAT editing tool and completely transformed my writing - I have some very positive videos on it as well 🙂
Story Grid does have a planning tool - Story Grid 624. I find it amazing and results in a fabulous plot/outline/brainstorm
Ooo thanks for this! I don't think they had that a few years ago? I'll have to check it out!
It's pronounced "fool's cap," not "fool scap." Comes from the size of paper used (8" x 13" or 8.5" x 13.5"), which traditionally bore a jester's cap watermark.
Interesting!
Didn't realise there was a formula to write a book.
lol there's definitely no formula that's for sure!
It was kind of hard to follow this as you tend to speak very fast for me but I'm beginning to feel daunted by writing my story because apparently it's this really complicated convoluted world of structures and rules leaving me feeling like instead of telling a story, rather writers just enjoy making the process as complex a puzzle to figure out as possible. Let's just invent problems to solve for the sake of solving a problem sort of thing. These are all new concepts to me and it's confusing my process more i think lol
Oops yup...I speak very fast. I've started slowing my videos down a bit to fix that now
I totally get it. Two things that might be helpful:
1. Story Grid is meant for editing, really. If you're in the middle of a first draft (and especially if it's a first first draf), ditch it until you're finished
2. No system is the be-all, end-all of story. Even after the first draft stage, if it's not working for you or you find it convoluted, don't use it. Story Grid is one of if not the most theoretical termonology-focused craft books out there. Studying story structure is a good idea - but maybe go w something simpler: like three acts with two pinch points and two plot points.
I have found in my writing that I have to write what I want, first. Everything else is a set of cubby holes in which to fit what I already have to make the story more acceptable to the public. Tell your story the way you want to, Disco Bean. Remove the confusion by following your heart. The problems to be solved are someone else's work, not ours.
@@GeorgiaGabet-sb7wv Thank you!!! Some one I was sort of collaborating with or ping ponging ideas of briefly had found alot of things in my story they did not like or questioned.... I forced me to take an honest look and decided in the end there were a few things I had kept from the original version of the story and altered to make a less confusing plot. But then it made me realize it's my story and I can change anything! So now unfortunately I'm stuck in this unending rut of exploring possible other big changes to make a more interesting story or less confusing or my favourite - a story that "has a point". Now that I realize the options are limitless I'm like... "Hmmm that's an interesting idea" or finding myself gravitating towards completely reverting back to an ending that's more similar to original where the two characters end up reuniting later in life and living happily ever after (obviously they don't, now, which is more realistic). I've got so many possible versions n my head now I'm stuck trying to figure out now wth I am actually trying to say. This younger person thought my character hasn't struggled enough and I needed to create more barriers for him to have overcome to be relatable or likable -- and then the person who knew nothing about my story who was aged for the audience of readers of the era my story takes place criticized the idea as being a tired over-done trope and suggested a happier scenario. Oy. That's why I was like ya know what? I must be on the right track with what I have. I still have no idea how to structure my story or what the arcs are or rising action or purpose is... i often question now why my main character is stuck and never gets together with the other character (who hasn't struggled enough). Character #2 *has* to die, right- like... No one would believe if he didn't. Although I do heartily fantasize about original version where the two reunite many years later and DO get together.
It looks like you're showing too many people your work before you're done with what you want to say for yourself. One of the biggest rules of writing is to Keep Silent until the story is on the page. These other people are editors unless you consider them collaborators. Get what you want to say onto the page, first. All editors can do is take away from your story and frustrate you until you give up on the project altogether.
A collaborator gets equal billing in the writing, so be careful whom you take into your confidence.Their professionalism should help get the story done, not add confusion.
SG did say that it is better to start simple, so I suggest finding the base of what you wanted to say when you first started writing, back when the idea was fresh and exciting to you. Get that all onto the page, no matter how simple. Do not edit in any way, shape or form until the story is as complete as you can get it, or you will find yourself constantly editing, never finishing.
Besides, You seem to have added a critic to your inner circle. That is dangerous! Critics are only your friends after the book, play, whatever is published- to give your work ad time and convince others to see for themselves.
Once you've hit confusion, it's hard to figure out what you had wanted to say, originally. Been there. This reverts to the idea of values, but instead of looking at the characters' values, you have to look at your own. What has meaning to YOU? This meaning is what may have started the story in the first place.
Writing should never be this hard. As beginners, we don't know this, and it's easy to fall into traps. Sometimes, it's just easier to trash it all and start over, but the difficulty level makes us wonder why we wanted to write at all. If there is a story inside you, don't give up until that story is satisfied. Starting over is not giving up- it's more like calling a do- over in a game so you can use what you have learned.
Again, Style, Story Arcs, Rising Action, etc. are editing tools. You aren't at that point yet. They can only create confusion and frustration in a writer. Leave those tools for someone else at this point.
May I suggest the simplest path at this stage? Live the story. You be the protagonist. Be your own hero. What would you do in this predicament? Such questions get the story onto the page. Then you have something to work with if you want to play with all the tools and opinions out there. The story comes first! No one ever tells us this, but they have a nasty sounding name for it: pantser- writing by the seat of your pants, making it up as you go along.
Hint: all writers make stuff up, and nothing under the sun is ever new. Such a saying is daunting. How do YOU see the series of events? This is what reveals meaning- seeing with different eyes, a different perspective. This point of view is your personal style. You don't see the difference in perspective because you're living it, but it is there.
Who is the youtuber(she) you mentioned in this video but not said her name?
Thanks for the catch! It's Michelle Schusterman
@@NicoleWilbur Michelle is the shiznit!! One of the greats on here