I remake ELDEN RING combat to prove a point!!
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ส.ค. 2024
- Some people have claimed that realistic video game combat animations for swords and other medieval weapons cannot be achieved due to many gameplay requirements. I will prove them wrong.
#medievalcombatreference
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7 ft long nodachi (aka Nagakiba): Fast swings, just at the cost of more stamina
6 ft long greatsword: *OH GOOD HEAVENS-*
You see, this is why I love shad. He gives his opinion, gives sources, and when people doubt him, he lets his actions speak louder than his words
is this the literal example of talk softly carry a big stick? :O he do got a big stick there 🤔
Speak softly and carry a longsword.
He's a real chad
His words are frickin infinite. I have to watch him at 2x speed to get through anything because he talks so damn much...
@@ianswinford5570 Speak softly and carry a Zweihänder :p
I want to see a game where when you start using a weapon, you character just flings it around randomly like an idiot, but as you use the weapon more and you character becomes more proficient and the animations change to become more trained and controlled and realistic.
This is a fantastic fucking idea
weapon mastery
There's a dungeon crawler called Exanima that kinda naturally plays that way because you use the mouse to control the arc of your swings. It has fully simulated physics too, so your attacks are also affected by things like the way you move your charcater during a swing and how the weapon is balanced (as in how its actually weighted, not damage numbers). In the beginning you'll mostly just be flailing your mouse around but it gets much more refined as you start to understand the game's systems
Gothic one and two do this. The more points you put in a skill the better you swing the sword and are even able to combo
check out kingdom come deliverence. They did something like that. At first player character have low stamina and swings swords slowly but when you get more proficient with certain weapon you are faster and can even combo your attacks into a finisher
Hot take: The Guts Greatsword should remain as it is if the director's desire was for Guts cosplay to mirror that of Berserk, but should be unique to that one sword and not shared with Ultra-Heavys
Agreed, I kinda expected Malekith's sword to have some of his moveset but nope
Agreed also from soft clearly drew a lot of inspiration for dark souls and elden ring from berserk
Having Guts' moveset will make it extremely overpowered, as it should be
Tough to balance, but they have basically done exactly that in dakr souls with the farron greatsword.
L1 in duel wield letd you perform acrobatic spins and leaping slashes. It's actual usefulness in pvp is questionable but still sick as hell
Seeing the zweihander being subject to the same moveset despite being 1/50 of the weight hurts...
(yes i'm responding to a year old comment.)
What's funny is that I'm not crazy about realism, but I used the Knight's sword just because the stances look way cooler than swinging the sword around like you can't control it.
Same with Banished Knight Greatsword. I would like to use Claymore and other greatswords in ER but the way you character swings them, slams them in to the ground... Pain.
And here I am duel wielding great swords because it looks cool. Though I will agree that the single wielded great sword animations aren't great.
Exactly, in the game, it looks like the character took a weapon too heavy for herself and struggle with it in every move.
You guys care about overcommitted swings while here I am, wanting them to replace summersaults with a Bloodborne style hop. You know, something you'd do in combat vs something that makes no sense in combat.
@@Acesahn makes sense. But dodge rolls is such a staple of the souls games now.
I've noticed that there's a lot more twirling of the blade in realistic sword combat than there is wide swinging. It's an interesting detail.
Because twirling is swifter and much more conservative and effective than swinging your weapon around vigourously. Also puts you in MUCH less danger. Wide swings in superhuman scenes only work because of the insane effects that follows.
Not meant to be offensive, so sorry if it was.
@@swordzanderson5352 You didn't sound rude to me! I was about to say basically everything you said lol!
@@swordzanderson5352 None taken. That's actually interesting to know.
@@RacingSnails64 I had to say stuff like this, knowing what the internet folk can be like. Thanks for bothering to assure me, appreciated
Twirling is also harder for eyes to track then wide swings
Okay, I loved the animations of elden ring despite some being from older games but seeing you do your own, I need these
i think a marriage of the satisfying ground thuds in elden ring with the trained flair would be best
@@LoonieMoony I don't like the ground hits. I think the heavy swish, and then the sound of the blow connecting with a valid target or a vertical/sloping environmental detail, is good enough.
@@RorytheRomulan fair enough. really we just want variety so we can pick and choose
@@RorytheRomulan Disagree heavily. It's part of the style of the souls games to emphasize that impact and brutalness. At least let some greatswords smash into the ground
@@NeutralGuyDoubleZero Then the style is simply incorrect. If the question for the team was "how do we show the player how powerful this thing is" then the answer is "I know, we'll make them hit the ground all the time and be terrible with it." We can find another way. Weapons in the colossal category are probably the only ones I could see hitting the ground all the time no matter how much the wielder tries to compensate.
Man these animation analysis vids are dope! I doubt Fromsoft will go out of their way to adjust all their assets since that's probably harder than I think it is. However elder scrolls 6 better be doing homework.
I think you mean Modders better be doing their homework XD.
I love your videos and I find you in the most random places.
@@m1_1911 I have many interests. Used to be a brony too, a bunch of comments there.
Knowing Bethesda, they are probably going to reuse animations made by modders for skyrim...
Fromsoft never wanted the game to be realistic...... Lol
The medieval combat reference thing is great because it's a resource. Games where it fits can use it, games where it does not still don't have too.
Making the attacking animation more ‘realistic’ itself can make the moves look ‘cooler’ since movement in real martial arts almost always look more refined and precise. It makes the character who pulls out these moves look more like a seasoned fighter (which is exactly what many characters in fantasy game suppose to be) instead of some amateurs who have no idea what he is doing.
Your comment just gave me an idea. What if the lousy flailing animations were not as effective and left you more open to attack (as they would in real life), but that's how a character fights at a low level of training, and increasing skill and experience unlocks the better animations? That would be an interesting thing to put into a game. Instead of arbitrary "increased damage" or "hit rate" as a character levels up, your attacks and defense actually become physically better.
If you think about it, that is realistically how a fighter of any kind improves in real life. More control, better technique, and giving less openings during combat.
@@Kelnx That would be absolutely amazing, I would just feel bad for the poor devs having to animate all of those movesets and subtle changes lol. If you look at the cutscenes in Sekiro though you actually can subtly see these improvements as the game progresses, mainly with how he draws his sword its really cool
Dark Souls/Elden Ring in-game characters are essentially (lore-wise) just random people who are thrown in a world where they know nothing. The peple they meet are using them for their own purposes, they have no mentor or training and have no expectation to succeed in their task. The idea is that you're taking on tasks that everyone before you has failed to achieve. Because they, just like you, are just untrained, random people thrown into the role by necessity of their world. It's not meant to be a medieval trained combat simulator, it's a series of trials you have no training to achieve and being required to learn how to solve them.
@@dangehret1349 I haven't played the game, so maybe I'm completely off. The problem I see with your argument is that if you are facing opponents who are trained and skilled in combat then your character had better learn those same skills to defeat them.
There is a right and a wrong way to use a shovel. The more you use one, the better you become at it. Your movements become more efficient and less tiring, you learn different techniques to deal with hard soil vs loose, etc.
The same would be true of a sword, though the stakes are obviously higher. Flailing around and expending unnecessary energy in wild swings would not only tire you out faster but it would expose you to attack. Any time your weapon is not between you and your opponent is a time in which they can strike you unopposed. A novice would be much better served by being too conservative: Don't swing unless you have a very good opening, keep your opponent at a distance, keep your weapon in front of you, etc.
There's a right and wrong way to use any tool. The more you use it, the more skilled you become.
@@malevolent7650 you aren't even thinking on how hard and worthless balancing all that would be. Imagine having 3 types of movesets for the same weapon and how may weapons there are on a dark souls game. Besides the game forces the adapting part into to you not your character, you're the one that has to adapt to the weapons, to their timings, to their reach, also you mention that a novice stays back and attacks just when necessary and that's exactly what a new players does and a better player will 100% exploit that
10:00
I believe I've seen this exactly in Dark Souls II, actually. It was with the Drangleic Greatsword, I believe. The game's justification was that it required as much skill as it did strength to wield. It's not a colossal sword, but it had a nice moveset and was a generally good weapon, actually.
Hollowslayer from DS2/DS3 shared the same moveset as well.
There are some greatswords in the game that have pretty good animations where the blade always ends in a nice defencive position but only for light attacks, strong attacks have always been baseball bat swings. Exemple is the banished knight greatsword a favorite of mine in ER
Actually there is a few swords with that moveset, like banished knight sword and knight sword
@@sirlenemodesto2665 Banished knight greatsword have a best damage of all two-handed swords in quality build. (Only phys. damage, but with enchantments - yes, it's the best one)
@@YesB0B they didn't.
Ds2 have only two hits.
Ds3 have three hits, and goes like 1-2-3-2-3-2-3-2-3... And so on.
As an animator trying to improve to get into some game animation jobs, this is extremely helpful, thank you Shad.
Shad yet again you miss the obvious answer. The ground is magnetic, so when the swords hit the ground they are extra hard to pick up. That's why running and jumping with them on your shoulder is fine, but swinging them is hard. Hope this helps.
This was an excellent idea, Shad.
Perhaps you could do a whole series of these, for different weapon types?
Sword and shield, dual wield daggers, pole arms, etc.
I hope Lyndybeige can do the spears!
@@newpaperyes Lindy, or Schola Gladiatoria.
Perhaps Shad could do a collaboration?
The almighty Mace too
The great sword has never been done true justice despite being in practically every melee combat game
13:38 So, funny thing about this! I haven't tested it in Elden Ring, but in its predecessor Dark Souls 3, that same backswing actually DOES strike opponents behind the attacker! A common strategy in that game is to "back stab fish", in other words, to run behind the opponent to strike at their rear for a critical hit. Mistiming such an attempt would end with you getting smacked by the backstroke!
Yeah I 100% agree. Even if your character has maxed out strength, you're still wielding a greatsword like it's a top heavy club. I think it might be cool if they included a feature where the sword was swung awkwardly until you were so many points (in strength or dexterity respectively) above the requirements to weird the weapon. I want my character to look like they know what they are doing and be badass because of it
Hell Fallout New Vegas had that back in 2010.
@@justtime6736 Gothic had it in 2001.
Edited: There I go, not finishing the video before typing again... but yea, the Knight Sword and Banished Knight Sword exist.
I'm really unhappy with how the Zweihänder is pronounced in this video. it's called Zweihänder and not sweihänder. (translation with google translator)
I was about to comment the same thing. It would be great if the Strength/Dexterity stats could affect the animations. Imagine if having 40 strength made the Great Sword Animations get slightly faster, and changed them to a more realistic/professional stance.
I used to be of the mindset that "as long as it looks cool, it doesn't matter that it's unrealistic" but as I get older, realistic has become my definition of "cool". Especially when it comes to fantasy based on real world aspects of medieval life. Which is quite a lot of fantasy.
This goes for how people live their lives or accomplish everyday tasks and the like, not necessarily what inhabits the world, magic, etc.
I know it's not for everyone but I hope more developers decide to go down this route, especially with easy to access sources.
I agree, grounding things in reality is how you demonstrate how fantastical something is within the context. If you don't know what to expect you can't have your expectations subverted because you don't have any; It makes everything boring if you don't have any sense for how difficult or special an event or action is.
See I'm the opposite, when I was younger I was the sort of asshole nerd that would complain about things "not being realistic" constantly. Now I'm just like "does it serve gameplay whilst also approaching realism enough for the setting?" "Yes, then IDGAF". Like Monster Hunter combat is incredibly unrealistic and I couldn't give a fuck what people say about oversized weapons and the like...
@@luketfer Thing is Monster Hunter isn't unrealistic for it's setting. They live in a world of superhuman hunters who fight super powered beasts that are generally powered by their insane biology. Hunters use the biology of the beasts against them as a 'sort of level up' instead of the normal exp system, while we have a few fantasy races like the cats or wyverians, most fantasies do, and we also have a couple of insane weapons(like my charge blade or the gunlance) but those are handwaved by being of the AC.
To fight stupidly huge beasts one v one with the amount of strength hunters have, it's perfectly 'realistic' to the setting. And they flesh out that setting as much as they can without anime like powercreep or the like. I mean the Fatalis family has literally been the ceiling of power in the entire verse since the first game. Whereas most games would of made dozens of monsters above it bare minimum if it were other games with a progression system.
Not MH though. Instead they just flesh out the lower tiers of creatures, because those weaker ones never stop being a threat. We never get to a point where "Rathalos" is a weakling that a five year old can kill or any rookie hunter in story wise. Just our power fantasy hunter.
Most people don't want to see Superman using normal medieval weapons against others because they'd shatter like glass on his enemies. It's unrealistic to the setting itself. However other lower fantasy settings can work better to add in more realism to the combat. The higher the fantasy the less this is necessary as our weapons and styles become more and more obsolete. Like Monster Hunter for example.
@@luketfer nice, some times I have a similar perspective but personally, for the most I don't care as long the way the creators decide to portray things helps to the narrative (depending genre and stuff): they want non sense action? cool! make impossible and extravagant moves... they want a serious and gritty approach? ok then do It like that, perhaps a mix?
I also think that is kind of absurd to expect certain things to be "realistic".
Not necessarily realistic (I love the flashy spins on the Star Wars Lightsabre fights) but just generally controlled, precise and skilled movements look and feel much better. Take Monster Hunter for example, the animations feel exact and graceful despite being quite slow. I want to see my character being a skilled badass not flailing around, realistic isn’t as important to me personally as just skilled
What I like about Shad is that he does not try to say it must be historical or fantasy but show how you can respect both.
You know, if I'm ever going to write combat into a story with fictional weapons, I'd want Shadiversity and Skallagrim to coach me on how such weapons would work practically or so.
Because man... I love their analysis of these things
Brandon Sanderson actually did consult Shad for Rhythm of War. I think it's pretty apparent where that consultation was applied, as there is a scene in the book where a POV character is packing for a trip and detailing the arsenal of weapons that he is bringing with him.
Shad, you are epic! #medievalcombatreference is a fantastic initiative. I've enjoyed this discussion so much, can't wait to be part of it. And in this video especially, you really nail the tempo and rhythm of the attack patterns in a Fromsoft game. And I'm glad you made the very important distinction that the goal is to make the moves look better, not transform the mechanics of the game to make everything exactly historically accurate. My video is in preproduction, I am honored to have been mentioned in your previous video. I hope you enjoy it, I think I define exactly what makes a good telegraph in an easy to understand and applicable way, while keeping martial stances. And yes, I will be DUAL WIELDING "great swords". Cheers mate!
Very excited to see your vid!
Dual wielding Greatswords? Whew! Watch out Shad, this guy might be at a higher level of Chad than you are! 😉
As a game dev i was exploring the idea of having trained and untrained versions of the same weapon. This is such a good visual reference for what i want to achieve! Thanks for this
Are you talking about whether the character has Proficiency in the weapon, like a D&D style stat system? If so, that's an AWESOME idea! I'm not sure if the average gamer would notice it, but those that do would really appreciate it!
@@Numl0k you can make it pretty obvious. it's very easy to miss the point when trying to use a sword if you have no idea of what you're doing and it's very noticeable. just make the animations even more obvious and clumsy at first and more refined with experience
I’m a hardcore FromSoftware fan and I have to say this is an amazing video - it’s awesome to get a pro’s critique on the weapon animations in the game.
Of course, there’s nothing inherently “wrong” with FS’s choices of animations because they’re going for “visual flair” and “drama” more than anything… and the animations look DAMN cool to an untrained eye. There’s also the fact that animators have much more to consider than the “realism” of the swing of a sword. As another person commented, the “feel” during gameplay odds incredibly important. That said, I wouldn’t be mad if they incorporated some of these changes in future titles.
I just had an interesting thought: what is FS made it so that the player character’s animations started off rough and “untrained” looking when you only have the bare minimum stats to use a particular weapon but then as you invest more points into those required stats, the avatar starts using more proficient-looking attacks?
This would effectively double the number of animations required for each weapon category but I don’t think that’s a big deal considering the fact they’ve been using a lot of the same animations for a while now
Whatever you say, fanboy.
@@IncognitoActivado huh?
11:22 I like the thought but I feel like that would require ungodly amounts of strength to be able to control a colossal swords momentum like that. Game balance wise those animations could be unlocked after crossing a str threshold like 60 or 70
Our characters are already strong enough to do those moves, when we enhance str we actually do the same move but capable of causing deeper cuts with less effort, that is my perspective from using a strenght based lancer at least
I love elden ring animations, but whenever a greatsword hits the ground and throws sparks, it gives me traumatic Forged in Fire strength test flashbacks.
Oh you got to do the training to get rid of that and feel the same satisfaction that I feel when they hit the ground. It's amazing when they hit the ground!
There are some wolves that drag their chin on the ground before biting you and that feels badass
historically
letting your weapon hit the ground would probably be grounds for extreme disciplinary actions. even with the big stuff...it aint cheap or easy to maintain!
people would be trained at least somewhat and often passed down at least a generation or 2 if not more....especially if you survived
theres no way poor form like this wouldnt be noticed and accounted for in training of anyone even working as a guard...there are/were other people standing around watching while others trained (waiting their turn or otherwise)
i expect there were at least some groups who reached "ninja" levels of capability with the european arts to say otherwise would be to say nobody took it seriously which just isnt possible
This is seriously cool. I wasn't sure about this initially because I was worried about the telegraphing and having it look cool, but the more realistic ones actually look way better than the game's. It looks just as cool but it's controlled and trained and in my opinion that makes it way cooler
After seeing this side by side comparison, the game animation actually looks like fish on land. I can't unsee it now when playing the game.
The way the zweihander clashes in the game looks like the Tarnished is just flinging it around, except in the backwards slash after the thrust. That one looks deliberate, like she noticed she didn't thud it on the ground and overswung even more
I love how the souls community adopted "git gud" and the theme of these games is that they've been getting harder and harder with their design, yet there are those who'll argue it shouldn't be more realistic and we need that much telegraphing. I for one welcome the new possibilities of challenge.
I mean untelegraphed attacks wouldn't be a challenge, they would just be unfair.
@@adamreif7338 I wouldn´t say "unfair". In HEMA the often reached goal is an untelegraphed attack. The only telegraphing being the time between when the weapon starts moving and when it hits you. But hey we yll understand monitor lag, internet lag and imput lag can influence the standard reaction time to the point it´s "unfair" in a way where the game becomes pay (patr manufacturers and providers) to win. So let´s keep telegraphing BUT don´t make telegraaphing a stupid useless slowass windup. Telegraphing could be done by slight changes of pose, leg movement or a change of stance. If we stop focusing on the weapon alone and instead focus on the whole figure then we can achive a lot more subtle and "professional" looking telegraphing that doesn´t look dumb but still furfills it´s purpouse.
Honestly going from dark souls to elden ring, the extra telegraphing made the game harder because I continuously dodge or parry too early. I'm used to faster attacks and find them more fun
@@adamreif7338 imo you could still take the new shad movesets and amplify a bit the timing and the visual cues of direction and achieve good playability
because its not just about telegraphing. Its also about timing and positioning. I don't like the use of the word telegraphing in this video. It focuses too much on one aspect of the combat. Knowing a move is coming is only so helpful if you don't know what move it is, how fast it will strike, and where it will strike. If I don't know what the tell means, I just know to get out of range, which effectively means they are also out of my range, unless I'm also ranged spec, and even then, they might be able to dodge out of the attack animation. There are plenty of games with shorter telegraphs that have easier combat. That's just that games pace. Elden's Rings combat pacing is different.
I love and admire the way you always take things further by actively responding to speculation and claims with well thought out and detailed video explanation responses. Marvellous!
Man, I don’t get why they can’t just have professional weapon masters do the animations like this. What Shad showed looked way way cooler and would work with the fast passed combat in Elden Ring. As it is, our characters look like total weaklings, no wonder everything kills us so much. It’s like the Tarnished weren’t properly trained in the arts of battle at all. Tarnished of no renown indeed.
If I had to guess I would sadly say its cost for hiring people with a wide array of weapon skills to be able to showcase stuff like that, which what shade is promoting would fix that for sure, or at least help. Maybe not as accurate as motion tracking suits. But honestly that would be close enough it would improve for anyone who used it. As I dont think it also comes down to if you dont know how, you just go with what you think could be close.
@@ChapterMasterADO The move sets are the same for male and female. So idk what your talking about. Plus when you move into superhuman strength to wield massive weapons. It would matter even less.
I get what you mean but are people seriously bitching about just because of a smal detail? Like the employees are already underpaid and you guys still expect more from them?
@@Loser-jh3tq It’s not that a lot of people are bitching we’ve seen these animations since dark souls, we just don’t feel like watching our swords dig into the ground and our characters look retarded when they swing, can be at least a tiny bit more structured. That’s really all it’s not that we’re going to quit playing because of it or anything lol
@@Loser-jh3tq I don't think your getting it at all, I love the game it's fun even if pvp isn't something I am good at. It's a truly beautiful game, the reason shad is saying this and I agree is they have shown proof they do care that weapons look accurate with some of them. The ones that do are honestly pure joy to use. I love duel weilding the scavengers curved blade. The moves are just satisfying. But I don't get that from some other weapons. Doesn't mean I don't like them cause I do. But I wish they felt better, if they didn't care at all I would think it would be a diffrent story but again it is shown they do
Overall I like this video, Shad. I'm studying to be a game animator right now, and I'm a huge fan of souls-games so heres my take:
First off, awesome job with these moves. I really think that if fromsoft started with this as reference, the animations for Zwei and greatswords would be on point. They are clean, realistic, and have good weight to them. They really look incredibly souls-like. And I do agree that the original movesets are unrealistic and could be improved. However I think that if you removed too much weightyness from all of these animations you would lose the "soulsy" charm of swinging a big unrealistic fantasy weapon around. Its all about finding that sweet spot. For example, zweihander and regular greatswords should definitely be treated as a lighter weapon. UGS like guts' sword, though, are meant to seem fantastically heavy. It's one of the principals of animations to exaggerate and souls-games are known for their exaggerated weapons.
Anyway I really do like your body-acting, again seriously awesome job. I tried to do an attack animation myself recently and it just went horribly wrong so I hope it's ok I use them as reference for a project!!
small note about the overswings with great words: because the hitboxes are so tight, if a enemy does a sideways sweeping attack as you finish certain swings, your character can actually get low enough to "dodge" the attack. it's really fun, and really nigh-impossible to time.
Very good demonstrations.
This is a good example of something we could use to animate a character in the game we're developing right now.
Don't worry, you still can do it just with the previous video
@@Sonofsun. it's the type of sword.
This video has a longer sword, similar to the one we are working.
@@Hrorwulf hmk
Yeah it’s really tough when you have a high level character who is supposedly a master of their arsenal and then they proceed to wield their weapons like toddlers. I think it would be awesome if your character started with the original animations and have them progress towards the more controlled animation over time as they level up and master combat.
Agreed! It would be so cool if like say 1-15 strength was that slamming it around default animation, then every 15 levels from there it changed and became more refined. It would also take away the whole required stat mechanic, instead you could just use whatever you wanted but it would just wield very poorly and have high telegraphing, maybe have a slight damage nerf until you could wield it effectively. This way weapons could could instead have a like a mastery level stat requirement. You can still use it but you would be the best at using with XXX strength, etc.
Yes.
this. aaaaall of this
@@nuclearsimian3281 yes just use it right
Gothic(1-2) is indeed the best game where is
the problem with the more realistic animations is that they dont have the "umph" that would display "oh shit this must do A LOT of damege"
and then they do sligthly more damage than a dagger
It might tie into what demographics like these games, where big overemphasized movements look cool and powerful to some people. Other people like me think it looks dumb, but I’m not planning on buying the game anyway.
Yes exaggeration is actually one of the principles of animation. You usually want to exaggerate the weight of objects so that it reads better on camera. Such is the difference between simulation and representation.
That's simple to fix, change the reaction of the target hit. Colossal weapons can have realistic animations, and if the they hit, smaller opponents go flying.
@@Lethargy514 I don't know why not, it's an important part of comics and animation.
Alot of people say the combat isn't accurate but never give an alternative,but you actually explained how you could have more accurate techniques while still keeping rythim and timing of the dark souls combat system,i applaud you for that
So the thing is, animation in general, and gameplay animations in particular, have a lot more going on that just what you're proposing here. To use your first example to illustrate, there are a couple of reasons that the player leads with the shoulder, stands off balance, and over-swings. The first is simply good animation form. Animation is not about photo-accurate renderings of reality, conventions like follow-through, secondary action, staging, and exaggeration exist to accentuate the action, an over-reliance on realism runs the risk of undermining the verisimilitude of the thing, the sense that it is real. Staging, in particular, is pertinent. In animation, staging is the idea that action poses need to be readable. The simple staging test is to see if you can tell what the action is through the silhouette of your pose alone. In a 3D game, this needs to be the case from every angle, and especially from the default camera position. A lot of 'unnecessary' movement is helpful here.
Anticipation and follow through in gameplay animation is not only essential for gameplay purposes, but also ironically grounds the player in their world, whereas more realistic animations often do not. This sort of feedback needs to be clear not just to pvp opponents but to the player. Audio-visual feedback, like say, a sword overswinging and hitting the ground with a loud *clank* is essential to good gamefeel. The common adage is that an animator's job is to make their work 'more real than the reality'. Most of your target audience is very very unlikely to be trained or even educated in historic combat practices. Fact is, real martial combat, to my understanding, is about *not* making unnecessary movement, and *not* being readable to your opponent. Good animation and especially good gameplay animation is precisely the opposite. Of course, any veteran designer or animator knows this, and I think there's very little risk that skilled artists would ever grind away the character of their work through an over-reliance on realism.
Truly, the idea of the project is a commendable one. Reference material is immensely valuable to animators, even with all I've said. You can only exaggerate reality by understanding it. A large resource of compiled combat reference is a fantastic idea, it just really rubs me the way that the 'criticisms' of some game animation are being made, especially given the apparent lack of understanding on the subject, if that makes sense. You clearly know what you're talking about when it comes to historical weapons and their use, so you're plenty qualified to undertake this commendable project. Please understand, that the animators and designers that make the sort of gameplay animations you're railing against are also very qualified in their respective fields, and have thought about the many, many variables that go into gameplay animation, a lot longer than you have.
Nailed it. I used to be extremely critical of games having unrealistic animations and mechanics, but after having dabbled in game development and animation for a few years, I’ve done a full 180 on the subject. His arguments are understandable, but ultimately he isn’t an animator or a game developer.
You illustrate my thoughts exactly about this topic. The principles of animation is directly antithesis to realistic combat. Can you make a good game with it? Yeah, I mean there are many medieval combat games specifically with that niche like kingdom come. If you want that go play that instead. However I don't think it's worth forsaking the artistic visual combat style identity, power fantasy, and most importantly, *good gamefeel* just to cater to niche audiences such as medieval enthusiasts like me. When I play these games I know that they want to make me feel good when I swing a massive sword and slam it on the ground, it isn't about trying to depict realistic combat, it never was.
You really care this much lol I just play game brain go dumb big monster die. Anyway I just wanted to say and ask did you not have time to do anything else with the life you used to write that ? If not fair enough and of course your opinion is valid also I think he knows it doesn’t have to be exactly the same as irl he is simply saying they could.
That's my real criticism with this project as well, while having a good and easily accessible source to reference from would be very nice to have, in practice it's never so simple. Thank you for explaining this in a way I would have trouble doing.
Do animators think like this when they do Katanas too ?
Is it bad that I normally watch Shad's reactionary vids without seeing the original? Watching him dump on the comment section makes me smile.
My normal path is watching backwards through a string of vids to the original
I just watch the shad video cuz if he took you time to make it I know he's correct
I know what you mean, I enjoy watching him answering comments directly.
Also I watch the answer videos first, since I can then after that watch the original to find out what people were talking about... It's fun, you should try it!
@@grandwizardnoticer8975 The old switcheroo.
Super cool video, one reason though that the swords hit the ground kinda wildly is to cause something called roll catching. Weapons that hit the ground can deal damage through a roll more often. So heavy weapons get that advantage to help balance. I love what you are doing keep it up.
I guess roll catching could still exist without hitting the ground, but then it would be less clear in pvp that the weapon has that effect. Not everything will be able to be implemented exactly and maintain game mechanics but I know you know that.
Honestly though I love what you are doing and how specific you are being. Your examples look amazing!
This is why the Banished Knight Greatsword is one of my absolute favorite weapons in the game, because it uses a much more historically accurate German longsword-inspired moveset. The blade never really overswings and always returns to a position facing the opponent. It looks cool as heck, and functions slightly better than the normal greatsword moveset due to the wider swings. If only it had a thrusting R2...
As a long time souls fan, I absolutely agree we didnt need such horrendous animations to achieve what they wanted. Any fan of Fromsoft knows that many of these moves were all carried over from previous games, some all the way back from demon's souls or DS1. Still i had hoped they would change some of these things but its pretty clear where most of their effort went. Great vids Shad i'd love to see where this goes
Yeah, animations are basically the same since at least a decade.
Yeah, and the improved GS swings he likes are tweaked versions from the swings in DS2.
Here's the thing why would they change them when from there perspective they've already perfected those animations.
To be honest they never seemed satisfied with their animations and thats a good thing. Every game seems to always tweak or add to their main weapon movesets, or like in DS2 added 2 greatswords that have a new light moveset altogether. Ultimately what we want is just cosmetic and its hard to justify that cost when your making something like Elden Ring, with new open world gameplay and like 100+ boss enemies, your going to reuse everything you can to save money and time. Already the new ashes of war system must have broken a few ppl, because now you can do things like put the katana double slash on to greatswords or stormblade on the great epee or whatever. Its just cosmetic changes are always on the bottom of their list and while id like that to change it's often justifiable.
Well at least Katana animations were updated.
“Flailing around like a drunken ogre”
My drunken ogre is offended 🤣
I've been an animator for a few years in the games industry and while I agree that the katana class is obviously a bit biased when it comes to how skillful the choreography looks, I think there's some misconceptions on what makes an animation good and bad. I don't think it's fair saying the animations are bad based on inaccuracy choreography-wise and I'll explain why.
TLDR: if a game does not care about historichal accuracy, it's not important, has not been prioritized and should not be a large factor in judging the overall quality of the animations since it's largely contextual.
Theres a big lack of understanding from the historical crowd when it comes to animation principles, notably exaggeration. It's one of if not the most important principle that often times work completely against making anything realistic or logical from a martial arts perspective.
You have to understand that animators aren't prioritizing realistic movements, they are prioritizing exaggerated and clear movements that communicate as much as possible to the player. This often times translates into overswinging, flashy choreography, shit crashing into things and being way heavier than they'd normally be.
This means that there's a very clear sacrifice of animation clarity when you prioritize realism, I know that the point of this video is to motivate that the sacrifice isn't as great as people would think but from my own animation perspective I think that they've largely done a spectacular job with that already.
Edit: You could sum that up by saying that there's really not much wiggle room between realism and clarity. Elden rings anims are already at the edge of what's possible in terms of realism while still keeping animation clarity pretty high so going further in realism would compromise quality too much.
How good animations are in a game largely comes down to how well they serve their purpose of communicating the underlying design ideas and how well they follow animation principles within the restrictions of the game. It's contextual and completely dependent on the vision of the product and the what the consumers find appealing.
If the product at large does not care about historichal accuracy when it comes to choreography, other aspects are way more important. Like exaggerated weight, strong posing and moves that feel RELATABLE to the consumer. It's not about what's "right", it's about what's appealing and appropriate in it's context. Most people have no idea how real longsword swinging looks like but have seen cool samurais drawing katanas from the hilt for example.
Now think about the combat mechanichs in this game, they lock you in an animation whenever you do an attack - seems pretty appropriate to exaggerate the character overswinging the crap out of that swing right? If the character would be balanced and effecient about it there'd be a gap in communication between the game-mechanics and how the character moves, because why would he/she NOT be able to move if it looks easy to do so. There's a clear intention behind why the animators went in the exaggerated direction.
I think you can make an argument about consistency in the choreography between weapon classes and it's also cool to different moves but I often see this lack of perspective when it comes to understanding that the product might not be aim appeal to history buffs. This lack of perspective feels quite tonedeaf sometimes especially when there's an underlying quality judgement even though they're well made and really well implemented.
Sure you can argue that more realistic animations would be more appropriate but you have to understand that people generally don't care as much about this as you do and because of that the product will most likely not be interested at all in compromizing animation clarity for that goal.
Hope that makes sense, I can understand your perspective tho as I have some martial arts exp myself :)
You can describe it simply as this:
most animators goal is to make animations that makes peoples brain go "nice" rather that actually be accurate/correct in the subject matter. Most people think animations that overexaggerate everything are more satisfying to look at than animations that are realistic/correct, sure there's a minority with the opinion that realistic stuff is more satisfying but they're dwarfed by the amount of consumers who actually matter for the product.
Unfortunately there's also very little wiggle room in between exaggeration and realistic since they're largely opposites.
@@maxjarvela4255 The problem is, people aren't stupid. And people do care. We just know that to tell a developer to put in effort is like a asking a Gender Studies Major for actual creditable work.
Everyone knows it takes effort to put in realism, it's far easier to be flashier than use fancy words to distract way the real problem.
--
Game development Priorities has been treating people like idiots
You don't have to communicate to players by devolving principals, or Fundamentally reductionist.
7:14 as shad points at, his form isn't perfect but he recognizes his own deficiencies, why can't you as a Game Developer do the same??
Why is the PEOPLES FAULT "for not understanding how hard it is," we do. And that why if we are going to pay $50+ for a game we expect you to put in effort.
Giving reference material is great, as an artist I would personally love more references to allow my art to have more realistic grounds.
For video games I feel concept artists and animators etc would benefit greatly from your reference idea
I have to say, as a dark souls player, the way your "animations" come out geniuenly look very familiar and similar to dark souls animations, while looking more skilled and realistic, very cool.
This... this gives me hope...
I always thought the animations in dark souls worked really well because you're playing as an undead hunk of beef jerky losing his soul, so you can't remember finer techniques due to hollowing. In the first gsme at least. The other two speed up a fair bit.
Utility is beautiful. I've always thought so. Deliberate purpose itself makes things cooler. It makes things look like they really exist rather than invented wholecloth. Sure there's a place for the bombastic and fantastic. But I've always preferred action to have limitations. Because only then can you push it to the limit.
@@Klausinator451 The problem is that with things like a katana, all of a sudden you are competent. Katanas, rapiers, scimitars and even some maces all get used pretty competently. But then other weapons are just wild random swings.
@@DaShikuXI Because those are Dex weapons (aside from the mace). Dexterity weapons have finer movesets because they're supposed to reflect a skillful user. This principle applies to all Souls games.
I like your defense, Shad. But I think you missed an opportunity to make a very important point. The idea in video games that the major difference between larger weapons and smaller weapons is the "amount" of damage they do is a dumb idea. As is the notion that game "balance" is fundamentally a matter of trading off the amount of damage and the speed of striking. As long as heavy weapons do signficantly more damage than small weapons, then yes, you have to "balance" this by making heavy weapons also significantly SLOWER. But the fact that this "balance" has been a major trope in video and role-playing games for so long is really a great mistake. It is every bit as possible to kill someone outright with a single blow using a dagger as it is using a great sword. And to wield a great sword as quickly as a dagger. "Damage" is an abstraction anyway. But the fact of the matter is that the major advantage of larger weapons has very little to do with how capable they are of injuring someone, but rather the two major factors of 1) REACH and 2) ARMOR PENETRATION. In fact, as you and others have noted many times in your videos, a dagger can be an deadly weapon even against armor, but only by finding the gaps in it. But assuming you are at the right RANGE from your opponent, and neither opponent is wearing armor, there is absolutely NO REASON to consider a great sword as more likely to injure or kill than a dagger or a short sword. Why don't we throw away this whole idea that bigger weapons do significantly more damage and instead make most weapons do more or less the same "damage", while making armor penetration and range more of a factor in weapon choice?
Why don't we throw away idea of bigger does more damage?
Because that's main visual clue for players to see what weapon to choose.
I agree dumb idea but realise, game companies care for sales and most players won't be knowledgeable about how it would work in reality.
So either bigger is better or more fancy looking is better (I can think of few FPS shooters who class weapons combat worthness aka how good it is, based on not size but how cool or how complex it looks).
So I assume that's why we can't have realistic fight simulators.
Because of gameplay, because of fun, and because of expectations.
Do you know what is "bullet drop" ? If you've played any battlefield with a sniper, you know what it is. And it works nothing like in real life. You don't experience any bullet drop at less than 200m, and scopes are usually calibrated to hit dead center at 500m. Yet take a sniper, any sniper, in any battlefield game (or any game really) and 20m away your bullet will start dropping as if you were shooting bottle corks.
That's 100% unrealistic, yet, it's in nearly every game.
Because that's what the players are expecting. Even if it's a shitty, totally unrealistic, and stupid mechanic, it's what players expect to find when they use a scope, they want this. They want to aim 50cm above the head of someone 20m away because they feel this is how it should be, because they find it "requires more skill", and ultimately, they find it more fun this way.
Players find it more fun that a bigger weapon deals more damage, so it does. Players expect a bigger weapon to be slower, so it is. And game devs have to balance games around that. Of course you could make a game about weapon reach, where every hit instantly kills or disable, but who would play this game ? Would it be fun to play ? There was a fighting game like that in the late 90s, Bushido blade. Guessed what game sold more, Bushido Blade or Soul Calibur ?
That would require a restructuring of weapon categories and add another variable to the simple damage/speed dynamic which I imagine most developers wouldn't be too keen on. Plus the real world dynamic of a single dagger wound being able to prove fatal wouldn't mesh well with stat-based games.
I like the idea though. Don't use your beefy two hand sword against the small nimble target because you're doing similar damage as the dagger and the target doesn't have enough defense to justify the armour penetration. So save your beefy two hander for the heavy meaty bois and pull out an arming sword for the speedy bois.
Edit: forgot to add, most games have trouble managing/balancing reach difference between melee weapons adding more complications to applying realism.
This is a great idea for more niche games, but it doesn't work in mass market. Games are games, they're (usually) not meant to be realistic, and the idea of damage amounts is a core element to games. While this kind of thing would be cool to see, it completely disregards what video games are and how they're designed. Again, a cool idea for niche or specialized games, but a terrible one for mass market and especially terrible to attempt to become the new norm
Sweet spots should do more damage. Sweet spots as in both location of the enemy and striking point of the blade. A slash with the blade tip should apply less "damage" than the blade's sweet spot (2/3 the length of the sword). An example, anyone familiar with Super Smash Brothers Melee, Marth has a sweet spot on the blade where he does more damage than if he were to hit with the tip. An aside, Mordhau does the best at applying balance to weapons "speed" vs "damage", in dynamic ways. Some factors, speed of the swing/thrust, the victim's armor at that location (mail vs plate), blunt modifiers applied if strike, stab modifiers if thrust, etc.
I feel like it would be really cool if these proposed animations were only used once the player has exceeded the stat requirements for a weapon, to show one's refinement of technique as the weapon becomes easier to weild.
This would make so much sense, too!
First of all, you do less damage, now justified by the improper form.
Second, you could still use specific weapon arts, just like ingame, because you technically have the "knowledge" for it.
Third, i added this point cause three is a good, round number.
Random person trying their best after waking up in a hell-like fantasy world.
This guy:
THEIR TECHNIQUE IS FLAWED
Sorry if this has already been said, but it seems like a lot of the clunkier movesets are re-used assets from the older From Software games. The better animations seem to be mostly newer weapons.
Yeah, the banished knight greatsword shows this perfectly. When two handed, the animation shows both good technique and the weight of the weapon. It isn't the most realistic, but it is good enough. That is why I use it all the time.
People seem to like glossing over the fact that it's still using animations from as far back as Dark Souls 1. It's awful.
@@HSnake5 I don't know if I'd call it awful, but definitely lazy.
@@ameritus9041 or alternatively, you could say that they'd be taking a risk by overhauling the movesets for the old weapons. I don't think it was laziness so much as playing it safe, and I say that because a lot of weapons like the Zweihander don't have identical animations to their Dark Souls counterparts, but rather new animations that were created to handle very similarly to how they handled in Souls. I think they intentionally kept the mechanics of the preexisting weapons intact rather than overhauling them with more realistic movesets, and that it wasn't really to do with asset reuse.
@@HSnake5 Why change things if they still work? Elden Ring has a massive amount of content, reusing player animations allow them to make a bigger game with more of everything for less development time.
I think it's actually a pretty significant detail that all of the weapon animations you like are for dexterity weapons, and the ones you dislike are for strength weapons. I don't think it was by accident that the dex weapons (a stat that actually was just called "skill" in Bloodborne) give the impression that the wielder is using sophisticated techniques while the strength weapons look like the wielder is bludgeoning someone to death with a clunky piece of iron. I imagine the Elden Ring devs wanted to make the two types of melee builds look and feel very distinct from each other. Of course the trope that some weapons only require brute strength and others only require skill and NO strength (cough bows cough) is just that--a trope--but it's more or less permanently cemented in the world of RPGs, so while it doesn't justify the sloppy looking animations, I think it's a better explanation than "you have to make them look bad because balance".
the banished knight greatsword is a str weapon. and its moveset(2-h) is pretty realistic.
Pretty sure you’re spot on
FYI irl bows require lots of strength
they weigh a lot and you have to bend the bow to actually give strength to the arrow (it's not the string that gives force)
@@tuluppampam That's exactly what I was talking about. The RPG trope is that bows require "dexterity" but no strength, when in reality that isn't true at all. (Though I get that games change reality for the purpose of balance and I'm fine with that to an extent.)
Knight's and Banised Knight's Greatsword use a different animation/moveset on two handed R1(normal swing). I think this video would be more complete if you can give your opinion on this moveset, since at least for the laymen, they move more gracefully and seems lighter on the swing than other greatswords.
Bruh he did near the end of the video
In what you've shown, shad, I agree, being a game developer, the thing is, in games like elden ring where there are so many different weapon sizes for each type of weapons, where they use the same animations for the sake of saving time in development, if you make the character do a lighter, more accurately portrayed attack, with proper posture and all, then it'll look silly when he's using a huge unrealistic weapon of the same type instead too. Plus there's usually, as it is in elden rings case, a stylistic choice that might be priority over a realistic choice too, and these might change from weapon or fighting style to another even in the same game.
So a decision has to be made at that point right? Do they have time to implement different animations in the development time frame, can this be a priority, will it need more work to be done? These must be decided early on in development planning and even then it might not be done for the sake of saving time and work efficiency depending on how the development goes it might get cut. That's just how and why these things happen when games get made. And I betcha this is what happened that led to the different animations for the same type of weapon in the example you showed with the greatswords
Not every weapon of the same type has the same move sets, for example look at the Halberds, there are 3 different Light Attack move sets and 2 Heavy Attack move sets
So for all the ridiculously oversized weapons they certainly could use the move sets currently in-game, there's a precedent for different weapons of the same type using different move sets
For those arguing about him swinging high. I'm pretty damn sure he could just lower the swing a bit.
And regardless it is just an example of a different type of swing that accomplishes the same target profile.
Neck and head swings were actually trained in since that's where the armor was thinnest. So high swings were quite common.
High swings were certainly common, but historically you were often fighting someone of comparable height, and if you weren't you'd just adjust your aim. But if you have a limited animation budget you have to make attacks that work against all kinds of different enemies. So yes, the standard animation should be a bit lower, probably chest height at the highest. Overall I think Shad's moveset would work just fine with a little bit of polishing and fine-tuning. Nothing that Shad couldn't do himself if he wanted to.
Souls games already have a system where attack height is based on camera angle.
If you're locked onto an enemy with similar height to yours, you actually attack *slightly downwards* because _the camera is pointing slightly downwards._
So its really a non-issue.
@@DJWeapon8 Oh. That's kinda neat actually.
The side by side comparisons was a great idea and really proved your point you can just do slight modifications that achieve significant improvements. The single point that they're not striking the ground with each swing of the great sword is already a huge improvement! The only one I could forgive is the guts like sword where the weight and the thickness of the bevel looks like it could at least handle some of the wear and tear of smashing the earth repeatedly but the zweihander animation is currently immersion breaking.
I like how Shad looks scarier with the wood sword than the game character fully armed. Competence is shinier than steel, isn’t it?
I mean Gut's sword is basically a giant club with extra steps.
Funny enough, Guts has very good control over his sword in the manga. He is fairly good about not letting the weight pull him around and strike the ground and such..
i want more attacks to hit the ground, not less, it is already annoying to hit rats and slimes as it is
The description for Siegfried's weapon and style in Soul Calibur 6 does a good job of explaining how the obnoxiously over sized swords can be used with some finesse. Big old copy paste:
"The giant two-handed sword used by this style both fortress and weapon. Slash follows slash as intricate stance shifts allow its user to compensate for the blade's weight-indeed, to use it to quickly transition to yet another block or strike, confounding an opponent and breaking their guard. When on the defensive, mighty blows made with all the wielder's spirit behind them are powerful enough to shatter boulders, and can instantly turn a losing battle into a triumphant victory.
Though not naturally built to wield such a large sword Siegfried still chose the Zweihänder as his weapon of choice.
You might be fooled into thinking the style required to swing this sword is all power, however, it’s actually quite subtle. The blade’s great weight can be used for both offense and defense, while slight changes in the wielder’s stance allow for giant moves with minimal movement.
The strikes Siegfried employs are designed to crush more than cut, and can make mincemeat of armor. Those foolish enough to think they can seize victory if they get in close will likely find themselves swept up in a series of carefully-planned movements and strikes, all leading to the attacker’s inevitable demise. If you are unfortunate to find yourself hit directly by a blow from this sword, death is all but certain and immediate."
I love that it actually sounds reasonable, even if it's pretty much impossible to pull off in a real world setting. I especially like how in that description they make a sane jab at the fact that he's a bit on the short side, and shouldn't be using a sword that's as long, if not longer than he is tall and is broader than his own head!
After about 80hrs playing with longswords and then using the zweihander towards the end of that 80hrs. I actually got so disheartened in feeling that my knight style character was an untrained buffoon swinging as wildly as he does that I have opted to start again with a different character and build. My new character started using 2 katanas and has now moved on to using the twinblade, neither of those 2 fighting styles really make any sense to me logically, but the animations feel intentional and like my character now reflects the skill needed to fell such great enemies.
I feel this is a good example of how the animations should have some structure and feel like they are being executed well by a character with experience, and that doing so doesn't have to mean being 100% realistic. Just more intentional and grounded, even if its just grounded relative to the fictional world it exists in. Basically, don't force my trained knight character to feel like an ooga booga caveman swinging his big wooden club when he is actually wielding a skilful weapon.
Imagine complaining about animations in a souls game
The souls games were made with world building, challenge and story in mind, not how good the graphics or animations are, so please don't drop an entire character because you were mildly pissy about some animations
@@Lopeped-Cring Fair, I happen to like roleplaying as pretty specific characters. So for me it is worth it to have a different character as I had already planned more anyway. Just a shame my initial one didn't feel as immersive as I wanted. I play the game differently to you and vice versa, that's fine.
Elden ring is still one of the best games I have played. Pls don't try telling people what they can or can't complain about in regards to something thoroughly subjective. Imagine taking someone's minor complaint about an aspect of something and then extrapolating it out and assuming that complaint applies to the greater topic as a whole. That's a lot of assumptions you are making. Trust me I wouldn't have put 150hrs into the game if I didn't like it.
@@gecho8848 yeah agreed, I had just made my comment condescending as there has been many comments in this video that make elden ring to be bad or not immersive due to the animations not being HYPER REALISTIC 100% REAL or just meh in general and you sounded like one of them at first, that's my fault and I apologise for the condescendance.
I understand where you are coming from to an extent. I personally dont really role-play much, especially in souls games because its clear that your character is supposed to be unskilled and so I just play as I usually play a.k.a whatever the hell i feel like at the time which seems to work well and allows me to enjoy it highly
@@Lopeped-CringFirst I just want to apologise for typing so much! Didn't intend to. Just an interesting topic to me haha.
Yeah don't worry about it, It's easy to have this stuff happen over the internet. I generally don't bother reading comments too much, I find it is healthier to just share my opinion if I feel like it. And if someone wants to respond (like in this case) I like to have a proper interaction there. It's also worth remembering that this community is all about realism when it comes to this stuff. So its a very biased audience. I say that as a long time viewer.
Also I do believe Shad has gotten a little too used to his audience praising him and he can come across rather arrogant in the way he frames his arguments/opinions. He is still great imo but I do think he could work on how he presents his arguments to avoid seeming arrogant. Or not since it's his channel and he can do what he wants, but still just a suggestion.
Having said that I do think animations in games are important (even souls games) as they reflect your character/your characters journey. Imo the game shows a lot of skill and flourish in many weapons but then little to no skill in other weapons. I mean imagine just making the katana move sets like the basic short sword animations. Pretty sure there would be an outcry of criticism from everyone as it's a weapon often associated with highly skilled users and those animations wouldn't reflect the culture of that weapon. However the weapons currently wielded like big clumsy clubs also require highly skilled users and certainly do not represent the culture they existed in.
Its just a disparity. I think in any game where the animation you start with is what you will have for the whole game. It should be at least moderately skilful looking to avoid feeling as though your characters progress in stats isn't reflected by their in world behaviour. Of course these things don't matter to everyone and that's totally fine. By the way what's your favourite weapon/build in the game so far?
@@gecho8848 seems you have brought great points, it seems you are very correct in all regards
With the little bit I have played so far I particularly like the hook claws, uchigatana and vulgar militia saw, and my build is a jack of all trades. I dont really go for particular builds in games because I usually change my approach on every fight
Those new legitimately look really good and seem like they could fit into the game perfectly, props to the work Shad did to figure that out.
Ultimately it comes down to what's fun, however realistic combat and fun combat don't have to be separate. Amateur and masterful techniques can also coexist as well, this could be a more natural way to gauge an enemy's level/threat over whether there numbers are higher than yours
I always thought a character's animations should change as they get proficient with a weapon.
With firearms or melee weapons - any weapon, really - the character should go from wild swings and flails to quick, concise movements as they either level up the stat to use the weapon, or level up the weapon's proficiency instead.
A lot of games already do this, where weapon proficiency increases various things such as damage, attack speed, reload speed, etc.; basically have this combined with subtle changes in animation, would look and feel great when your character uses their weapon like a professional.
This debate exists with FPSs as well. Some simply prefer "Arcade" gameplay.
There’s nothing fun about looking incompetent when you’re supposed to be a great and skilled warrior
@@DisemboweII changing a number for damage or attack speed is incredibly easy, having subtle animation changes for every single type of attack throughout your entire game is a MASSIVE amount of extra work to do.
@@johnevergreen8019 yeah, but not every protagonist is a great and skilled warrior. The tarnished seems to just pick up weapons and uses them how they imagine them to be used
*Criticism incoming*
*Shad proving his point in a clear, constructive and respectful way*
That's why I love your channel!
And yet he builds himself into a rage on subjects and capitalised every letter of his video titles like hes yelling. I like him most of the time but he does exaggerate things sometimes.
@@spitandfire Not what I personally would call a rage. Passion for the subject imho, but I guess we all have our different pov.
@@alpinewolf7751 with this I refer to his video on weird history's armour video. He got himself incredibly worked up for that one. I know some of it is for effect. But it's like alex jones. Rage to make your point seem authoritative and correct.
With all due respect, the animations in the game are not meant to be 1:1 realistic with real life. Animation fundamentals teach exaggeration and for good reason. Not only does it help the viewer understand what they're looking at (clarity purposes) but it creates much more dynamic poses and is overall a more pleasing visual experience, especially in a game that emphasizes epic battles, it makes sense to have epic posing and exaggerated attacks.
Honestly using the spears was much more fun for me because they didn’t look so painful. It feels way cooler when your character exerts such fine control over their weapons.
They were my go-to in SotFS, but the awful durability was the real final boss.
@@MoltenMouseMetal you can get the bracing knuckle ring +2 pretty early in the undead crypt, pretty sure it's just lying around because i dont think i killed anything where it was
This is wonderful! I know from doing art as a hobby that someone giving away free reference material online is a true hero. You shad, are even more of a hero because you have this wide arsenal of clothing and weapons that are true to history that you give detailed info on!
Someone should set up a website for medieval reference art and information. There's so many misconceptions and something directed at artists and game designers could be really helpful.
@@0612rex Or add it to the wiki
Ideal scenario* would be to have a mechanic where your character's form starts off wild but becomes more realistic and refined as you kill enemies and/or level up certain attributes.
*unless taking over a pre-existing character like, say, Geralt
That be cool! A low level character could have wild weak swings, and then they become more precise and controlled. An evolving art style and you could add gameplay benefits like increased bleed chance or critical hit change/dmage
Yes or you level up the weapon class instead, because levelling up while using a mace shouldnt make you more proficient in the sword (if you want it to be that little bit more realistic)
Sounds like extra work for almost nothing. Don't get me wrong, its a great idea, i just don't see any game company deciding to allocate resources to a system like that
@@phenix2403 agreed, but still cool
@@phenix2403 There is a game that is specifically focusing on like, realistic sword styles. Player versus player.
I cant remember the name.
I am seeing some idiotic comments claiming that it's just a fantasy game and so it doesn't have to be realistic. The thing is even fantasy has something we called physics and body mechanics. When we overswing weapons and do not have the proper posture we are unnecessarily wasting energy and not using energy efficiently, hence it may seem badass but it doesn't make a lot of sense expecially if the player character is skilled in using that particular weapon.
Furthermore, why does the player character use the rapier/thrusting swords and katana properly and skillfully but for reason swings straights swords, greatswords or swords in general like an unskilled barbarian, there is a lack of consistency especially because swords are not as heavy as they appear. It perpetuates the myth that medieval european swords are crude, dull and heavy while katanas are so called more skilled and elegant which is disrespectful to European Medieval History that the game is clearly inspired by.
To add to this point, why does the player character strike the ground with so much force that it would no doubt blunt their swords making it useless in terms of cutting his enemies, and doing this he can also damage and even break the sword and this breaks my sense of immersion.
Thus, the logic that it's a fantasy game and therefore we do not need to use swords properly feels idiotic.
10:38 your swings are very high, there are already in-game problems with certain weapons not swinging low enough to hit certain enemies, or deal with terrain height differences, or crouching enemies in pvp. the elden ring character could be swinging closer to the ground for hit-box reasons. Likewise the Zweihander hitting behind the elden ring character on the last swing IS significant in gameplay for the same reason. hitboxes.
Exactly. A lot of these aren't taking account of the characters physical capabilities or the weight of the weapon being used. For example, I like that the Zwei has the 3rd attack drag the sword for a bit before swinging, because it shows that the sword still has weight. The representation is hard to see as "more realistic" because he's using a prop, which likely has much less weight than a full steel greatsword.
@@zaney-boi9974 okay but a zwiehander wasn’t as heavy as it is being shown in elden ring. In Elden ring and in all the other souls games the zwiehander is shown as unwieldy when in reality it weighed anywhere from 4.4 to 8.8 pounds.
@@thepieman69 Yes, but it's also decently long, being about 7 feet, or 84 inches, most likely making it more top-heavy.
@@zaney-boi9974 if the grip is properly weighted than the wieght is in the middle of the sword just above the Hilt.
@@zaney-boi9974 Yes a real zwei-hander is heavier, and that's why he would move it faster in real life since it has momentum, but he's using a wooden prop so he can move as slowly as it's needed for gameplay purposes.
I love how Hellish Quart can literally use historical moves through Motion Capture, and it’s a fun and snappy experience.
Come on. If you think society likes it, you're delusional. Ask society their opinion and you'll see. There's a reason why games aren't made this way.
@@theodorealenas3171 ”we live in a society“
Bad example, it a one on one dueler sorta built the with fencing in mind. It conceptually an very unifacetted , simple game in terms of gameplay. RPGS are fuck tonne more multifaceted and usually have ton game play elements, this puts more stress on software more brutal design designs to meet deadlines. Something has got to give from a developing perspective if you want to have game done on that lacks glitches, etc.
It also has different priorities in mind when it comes to its animation. Hellish Quart works because you're fighting people and only people. I don't think people understand the vast array of enemies that the player tangos with in a FromSoft game. The ideal moveset for a weapon must be viable across all enemy sizes and be easy to read since the latency in those games can be a bitch due to how much that's gotta be rendered. It's nothing like online in a fighting game.
@@theodorealenas3171 I don't think Herbert is concerned about what society thinks. It's completely fine if a game satisfies only a niche group of gamers. There's already an abundance of games with generic sword-flailing animations.
Good job Shad. I'm a game developer and I appreciate and approve this.
This was SO helpful! I am actually in College right now for Game Dev and in my gaming anim course I need to do a heavy attack, and this is a great resource thank you!
7:05 Shad's "battle face" is actually quite intimidating!
You can almost hear him scream at you with that open mouth. Not enough just having to deffend from these attacks? Ok, Let me pierce your ears as a bonus.
I'm at 4:50 and as one of the critics of the video before I'll say this before even seeing the new moveset. Thank you for compromising and my arguments were only that what you showed (the most likely things to be added due to being present as an example) were too effective and single human target oriented for an Elden Ring type game. Also in Street Fighter at least when I played you didn't parry so the telegraphed movement is kinda pointless there. But thank you Shad for the follow up even if you don't feel like you compromised this makes me happy to see.
You can parry in certain streetfighter games, but the speed of most attacks start ups are still around 7-12 frames per second, barely fast enough for most people to react to. This is why you need to practice, so people who think the speed or lack of speed in FromSoft games animations is for the sake of balance need to get gud at those games and then see what they have to say.
One of the most famous clips of Street Fighter is a pro parrying every single hit in a multi-hit super perfectly, since just blocking would have resulted in dying.
The exact timing varies based on the game, but its usually about 1/30th of a second give or take a frame.
@@charlesqbanks That's comparing apples to oranges, though. Do you not realize that the online netcode for a fighting game is vastly different from the netcode for a game like Elden Ring? Of course Street Fighter can afford to have tight parry windows in an online setting, they're only two people fighting at a time in a singular two-dimensional arena. There's hardly as many resources being used compared to invading someone's world.
Even if people disagree, I think it's a great idea to have references for animators to draw upon to help make fighting look more believable. At the very least, not showing obvious openings to an opponent for no reason.
"If the truth shall kill them, let them die." -Immanuel Kant
Oh my goodness!! They ALL look sooooo much better. I know you've been saying it for years but real sword techniques really look smoother and make the character seem so much more trained. Hopefully game companies really start to listen. False edge cuts needs to be more common in video games.
Now, I am not disagreeing with Shad, and I think the animations look quite ridiculous. But there is something very interesting that happened, where people absolutely despised rapiers in some Souls games. To the point there was this honor system in which you would be shunned for using one. What was the reason? The rapier animation had proper form, making it really hard to read and defend.
Make every weapon have as much proper form as possible.
If every weapon is hard to read and defend easily, then nothing is.
Now, that rapier is just a normal weapon.
Perhaps if the other weapons had proper form the rapier wouldn't be almost impossible to address. Just saying. That or git gud, as the saying goes.
@@luelee6168 the other weapons work against hordes of enemies, the rapier dont
It's because of pvp, rapiers have been consistently overpowered in a lot of the souls games, especially ds2 and 3, so when you saw someone with a rapier the likely reaction was to grunt in frustration due to the power and speed of the weapon in question. Absolute s tier
@@devforfun5618 We are talking about pvp after all.
Damn i like your colossal sword redesign, it did strike me odd that these apparently trained soldiers used big weapons in a clumsy way.
okay but the fact that i just watched this AND went to play later just to see that they actually implemented this is crazy! awesome work shad.
I have three rules of thumb when using bigger swords and practicing my own stances and swings.
1. You generally do not let your blade touch the ground. Not only does this damage the blade in the long run but it's harder to get the next two points to work.
2. If your comboing you want your attacks to flow well and feel natural.
3. Always practice guarding and faints in the middle of your combos.
One thing I often notice in Fromsoft games is that enemies sometimes have more realistic movesets that players cannot do, such as hitting with the butt of the weapon with polearms ect. Might be interesting to go through the game and examine the attack patterns for humanoid enemies and see how realistic their movesets are too.
The argument that “the weapon is too big to be swung properly!” also goes out the window when you notice a lot of enemies and bosses whose weapons are proportionately the same size as yours, but can swing them with a lot more control and finesse. Just look at the Lothric Knight with the greatsword for an example.
@@snipetysniper that's why the bosses and lothric knights are hard. They move quicker and with more grace. If the player had that much ease of control then those hard enemies would be a lot easier
The reason the enemies can have more realistic movesets mostly comes from the fact that any given enemy isn't as limited in potential attacks as the player is. There are only 3 buttons used for any set of attacks in a FromSoft game, light attack, heavy attack and since DS3 special attack (Weapon Art in DS3, Ash of War Skill in Elden Ring). There are already some extra attacks that are lesser used (Running Attack, Rolling Attack, Backstep attack, and now crouch attacks, guard counter attacks and mounted attacks in Elden Ring), and there are one-handed and two handed variants to all of this and already you're looking at 14 types of attack not counting specials or mounted attacks, which is a lot. But enemies can theoretically have even more than that and can also have more specific situational moves for special circumstances that can't easily be put into a controller based input scheme. Something like a pommel strike of spear butt strike makes sense as a pushback move if someone's too close, but what input would you sacrifice to fit that into the player's attack repertoire?
FromSoft games sacrifice some realism for utility in these games since they don't use contextual attack animations. You're able to do any of the weapon attacks from any position at basically any time instead of getting more contextually unique attacks based on player versus enemy position which is something that is more common in games with more fixed matched animations. If they wanted more specific variations and maneuvers than what are already in the Souls games without contextual matched animations it would start getting into fighting game territory, where you'd need lots of precise command input combinations. And earlier Souls games did have a couple for jumping attacks and kicks, but a lot of people found them difficult to input with intention (since the special command was a quick forward motion input at the same time as an attack input which was easy to do accidentally) which is why I'm guessing even those very simple button combination attacks were removed from Elden Ring.
@@MidlifeCrisisJoe Exactly. I dislike where this string of videos went because the discussion has changed in such a way that feels like the realism crowd is missing the bigger picture. Video games are meant to be video games, not combat history museums. The realism should compliment the gameplay, not the gameplay complimenting the realism.
@@kabrozkabroz not to mention that realistic move set or not, you're still gonna be lightsabre-ing swords right through plate armour and not killing the dude inside instantly
I love these animations, specifically the spin over the head here at 14:55. It makes logical sense when you consider that Shad is arguing to make the changes to these animations from the standpoint of historical accuracy to combat that they would be so much more effective... well... IN COMBAT!
But that overhead spin there would singlehandedly be so effective as an attack in Elden Ring that I do wish it was in the game. Think of how many people first of all would not see the first hit of the spin coming, and even if they did dodge it would probably get hit by the second attack dodging too early with the first!! Imagine a full 360 Artorias spin like that as a roll catching move! How awesome would that be?!
Love the content as always Shad! Thank you for sharing your ideas with us!
You would be surprised how easily that attack can be parried if it isn't a full charge double handed R2.
More often than not... Multi Attack combos are prone to parries.
@@absolstoryoffiction6615 You can justify it as high risk, high reward move. Your screwed if they catch the input, but the same goes for them if they misread you.
The first hit would probably have to be weaker to balance it out but yeah, like staggering your opponent to combo into that 2nd heavy hit.
Your replacement for the Greatsword swings reminds me a lot of the Hollowslayer Greatsword moveset from Dark Souls 3. They used a little more flare in the animation which probably hinders the balance and recovery but looks real fancy and pretty
I think I meant the heavy attack swings, whoops
Dayum that colossal sword spin was sexy
I wouldn't change elden ring, but I would love to see a game with max but reasonably fun realism in it. Kingdom Come was good, but I think we can even do better.
Well, I would.
At least I would change the katana class to some "longsword/bastard sword" class and add several european and may be Chinese weapon there.
The combat in kingdom come is so fun once your trained up, But not sure how well that style of combat would translate into pvp.
@@ghosturiel very graceful katanas and rapiers movesets doesn't make pvp in souls and elden ring impossible.
And there comes the "Hellish quart", so pretty soon we'll be able to see how well it can go.
Well, we tried!
Fun fact: The hits taken in KCD are not calculated - they are mocapped too! One of our poor brave assistant teachers was there on the receiving end of all those techniques.
I would change the animations, the current ones are very boring and bland expect for some weapons.
Sekiro, another From Software game, actually accomplishes reality while being a fantasy. The telegraphs in Sekiro are much more subtle and believable compared to Elden Ring and Dark Souls.
Tails of Iron did realistic combat.
You move insanely fast with a parry that is active frame 1. This is Apples to Oranges.
I like the way the video presents your point. If we're being honest though, the game isnt meant to be historically accurate combat wise. It's a fantasy rpg. The over exaggerated wind ups and heavy swings connecting on whatever you're intending to slaughter is extremely pleasing haha. But, I get why someone with expertise in sword combat would find it unappealing. It's a game though.
Video game logic - If it's bigger than a long sword, you must act like it's a 25lb sledgehammer when attacking.
I always used to prefer theses weapons that had a more refined, trained moveset. Never really thought about it too much before, but now I see it's simply because they look so much better!
As always Shad is 100% correct, it would look much better if they were all like this.
It's called lazy game design. They use the same type of stupid animation for multiple weapons because they want to spare money and do not make good looking animations for each weapon.
it’s surprising that no one mentioned the need for the attacks to hit low to the ground ! countless times my colossal sword swings over rats and small creatures. While your new animations look and feel better, there’s no chance they would hit any enemies smaller than human build.
on this i have to dissagree, the moves he did looked much higher than the ones in game, so i feel like if those were the animations, small enemies would be 10 times harder to hit
I was initially sceptical of your point of view but this video has put my doubts to rest.
The more realistic greatsword animation also demonstrate that you could add a different animation set for light ultra greatswords with the same timing and keep the current ones for the more massive ultras because they already have two animation sets for greatswords so they could just do the same thing.
And lastly: you mentioned that you didn't think that the moveset for the Knight's greatsword and banished Knight's flowed naturally, I think I can explain why this is. That animation set originates from dark souls 2 where they actually used motion capture for some of the attack animations. The original movesets in ds2 are significantly smoother and more similar to real greatsword patterns such as figueiredo's 16 simple rules for montante but for whatever reason (I can't remember and I may not be entirely correct) they no longer have access to the original animations. So they recreated them first in dark souls 3 then in elden ring. And with each new version they got further from the original movesets.
"They're not flailing around like a drunken ogre." I'm sorry, but Exanima still has some of the most realistic combat I've seen in a videogame. It's just that in the hands of the average person it's basically the drunken knife fighting simulator.
And I'm for sure the strongest drunk over there.
It's the best medieval fighting game Ive played. The swordplay only looks imprecise when Ur bad at it.
It has realistic armor, weapons. So kool. I just play arena trying to get that gorgeous plate armor.
I just stumbled across that game earlier today for the first time. 😂
which would be accurate to real life I suppose
it takes quite a bit of time to learn, but damn does it pay off
Statistically the majority of fights with bladed weapons are drunk knife fights, so that's just more accuracy.
I think they should've made a "light" greatsword move set. A thin claymore has the same move set and speed as a giant dragon tooth
I'm a game dev and this is exactly what I was looking for
Contents aside, "gameplay shouldn't restrict realistic combat" is not how you convince people, as that *sounds* like gameplay is the less relevant part. Which they aren't ever going to agree on.
As nerds we're pretty damn bad at marking arguments and convincing people. A TH-cam person asked the viewers to convince him to try a niche gimmicky programming tool, Emacs, he said show me a short video of you using it. Nobody did! They sent him videos of 40 minute rambles.
Imagine enemies in Elden ring moving realistically instead of pivoting 90 degrees mid air and spazzing whilst sliding on the swing 10 times a second....Just wouldn't be a modern from soft game if the AI wasn't cheesing you. 😂
If they did develop better npcs I would raise my rating 8/10 to 8.5/10.
I have to say that I just dont think that Shad's replacement animation looks better. The strikes in ER just looks much more powerful. All Shad's adjustments would make the attacks less satisfying to use.
Basically this. This is why realism doesn’t belong to a game like ER. Animation also has it’s own principles to visualize weight and impact that is why realism isn’t always preferred.
Fromsoft weapon animations are not satisfying to use. They are so boring, whenever you swing you are just waiting for the extremely long windup to end
@@albusnightspring8057 It is only a case with big slow weapons.
I think there is definitely a time and place for realistic animations such as the ones you propose, especially in games which are based on that premise. However, I would argue it is not necessarily every game's goal to be realistic.
Animation is art, and there are very many principles to making that art impactful and aesthetically pleasing; a lot of these principles can be in direct competition with realism and practicality. Principles like anticipation and follow-through can be exaggerated to give an animation more weight and impact, and those exaggerations might throw off a real user's balance or leave gaping holes in the guard. In more extreme cases (I would point to fighting games such as Guilty Gear and Skullgirls), animation can stretch, squash, smudge, and bend characters in physically impossible ways that look ridiculous if you examine them critically for realism, yet nonetheless, they convey more intensely the message that the artist wanted to get across. The animations can be wrong in technique or realism specifically in order to provide a significantly different feeling and aesthetic.
I think it is completely reasonable to be irked by poor technique in animation, but that does not necessarily make it *bad animation* - I would say it just does not suit your tastes, and there is space for both art forms in order to appeal to different audiences and convey different messages as intended by the animator/artist themselves.
i think the point is that they don't have to be 100% realistic, but at least to look like the people using the sword know what they are doing, it is really immersion breaking when you want to play as an actual warrior but your character uses his sword like a caveman uses a club
underrated comment, not to mention that there is also the game feel factor, with the shad animations the sword looks way more light, which is more realistic, but would feel weird in a slow game, it also would feel less powerful, you can make it "slash" like sekiro animations do, but not heavy power.
There is also posing and visualization, lot's of times, realistic posing are just not interesting and good to see what is going one, so exaggerations happens for the sake of clarity
What I think could be really cool is if the game switches your animation based on what your character build is like. If it's specifically meant to be really good with swords, the animation would be like the one you proposed, but if the character is poorly trained, it uses the current animations.
Exactly!!!! The character feels like it doesn't know how to use the colossal sword properly or doesn't have enough strength to use it properly. If that was what they were aiming for, ok, but there should also have characters that do a more orthodox move set.
Yeah that is one of the things I like about Skyrim in which the more you practiced an action, the better you got at it.
After 60 strenght and still slamming the weapon around like when I only had 10
The problem with that is the amount of time and money it would cost. They're already having to code and animate all of these animations for every weapon in the game (more than every other past game). If they then had to recode and animate different movesets for every weapon for a "trained" trait, that would be insane. They don't have infinite time, there's some later game areas that are disappointingly a little empty, and I would rather them build the world more that making realistic movesets honestly.
@@NathanCassidy721 skyrim movesets don't change based on level, and I would argue that skyrim's animations are even worse
This has the energy of someone going "If you think you know so much, do it yourself" in an argument and the other person actaully doing it
Dude, you'll end up being hired to mo-cap these games. Great job.
That last spin attack looks beautiful!
This is a great followup vid, and very much appreciated, but I think you haven't considered other points of game balance, and hey, I'm not blaming you.
As first point, the souls' gameplay is in many ways a battle of attrition (both PvE and PvP) not only because the healing as a resource but also because players and monsters don't die in one hit like you could assume in real life (ok they may die in one hit but it is clearly unintentional, there's a lot of future game balance patches expected for that xd). How would this affect your conclusions and examples? What if the crude overswing of, let's say straight swords, is taking into account that people in that world no longer die in one well placed swing and they know it? Would that make it more logical to fight like you are cleaving through flesh and bone over and over?
On another unrelated point, souls' gameplay also is comparable to a fighting game (I love that you mentioned fighting games), especially in PvP, but with delayed response timings on top of its slower pace to help accommodate other aspects of gameplay; let me explain:
In fighting games, as you said, you have some attacks that can't be telegraphed the same way as in elden ring; but you can also guard much faster, it's much more responsive in fighting games. In souls' games, especially in PvP, when you roll you aren't immediately invulnerable the moment you press the button. This telegraphing sometimes helps you read the opponent when he wields a bigger weapon (this is called reaction roll), but it is literally impossible to do with smaller weapons, which force you to predict when to roll based on other behavior the opponent has (prediction roll) or face getting hit multiple times. The even smaller weapons, like daggers, curved swords, and thrusting swords, can't be reaction rolled at all if in close up neutral position, in exchange for having much lower damage (exactly like in fighting games), but spammed followup attacks are much more easily dodged without even timing you roll compared to the other "small" weapons, like the straight swords, hammers, etc. But these timings don't affect every aspect of the game in the same way.
There's also the component of stun. All weapons have a stun duration somewhat related to their attack speed and damage: as a rule of thumb, small weapons attack faster, deal less damage and stun less; larger weapons attack slower, deal more damage, and stun more. But even in the same category of weapons these things change: the two distinct greatsword movesets have been (somewhat) preserved from previous games and they have different damage modifiers, different stuns, and other stats, which brings me to the next point.
Weapons have different active poise values. Active Poise is the resistance to being interrupted mid-attack, and it's a value that gets drained as you get hit and with different intensities depending on what hits you. Small weapons literally don't have poise, while greatsword-like and bigger ones have increasing amounts (there's also armor poise but let's not get into that). This creates another layer of depth in the gameplay that is very important, which is trading damage. For example, again the two greatsword movesets, the crude one's poise starts having effect at different timings than the more balanced one, resets at different points during followup attacks, has a different maximum value, and other parameters.
There's also the number of frames the hit box is active dealing damage, which also changes.
So now you have to decide whether to trade, dodge, block, strafe, whiff punish, space, bluff, etc, sometimes multiple of these at the same time or in rapid succession, or change as the combat progresses. The community literally borrowed much of this lingo from fighting games, that's how closely related it is.
Also as an example, in souls games straight swords have always been in a high tier in terms of power (some considering them overpowered) considering their speed, reach, area, recovery timings, etc etc. and making it more realistic would probably make them either the best weapon category or force another balance change that would make them worthless.
If we visualize this game as stickmen hitting each other with unidentifiable pool noodles, having all what I said into account (including the first one about attrition and health bars), if we change the movesets too much to imitate reality (I know, you don't mean a perfect imitation but) I fear that in the end all these nuances I've talked about would be much less impactful and many different weapon categories, although having movesets that look different, they would end up working almost the same: straight swords would need to stun as daggers, greatswords wouldn't have poise and work like slower straight swords, the zweihander would need to deal less damage and have its hitbox start slow, then appear faster, and linger more time like if it was a glaive (I based this one on the information you gave with your new moveset examples), things like that. In the end different looks same weapon. This already happens many times within each category of weapon, and I wouldn't like it to happen between different categories. I fear that I would no longer be playing a souls game by from software, it would be another very different game.
This was really well done with the side-by-side comparisons! We need more of these in the game dev community. 👍