As a person who was drawn to modern strategy and tactics because of an interest in classical warfare, Thucydides in particular, this video is an amazing collision of two interests. Looking forward to all future War Room episodes, and very excited to think that more classical battles could be on the table.
This was simply brilliant, you have real talent for explaining the details in a way that's easy to understand and entertaining to listen to. I think this is up there with the likes of Kings & Generals, History Marche & Invicta in terms of quality of content. I particularly like the carving out of the problems facing both sides and their weighing up of the risks and rewards, it makes it so much more tangible than other histories/documentaries I've watched. Your use of maps presents the situation in a manner that allows the viewer to get into the heads of the commanders so as to understand their perspectives given the fog of war. I'd certainly be up for seeing more content on the Peloponnesian war. Great job! What's your background Hapless? Are you a trained historian or just a hobbyist?
He is a world treasure. Every night my whole family is made to watch Scottish Corridor on repeat until I fall asleep. But yeah your right, his descriptive nature really is a talent and it's certainly something potent.
@joseywales3848 Thanks very much man! Good to see you in the comments again. I am not a historian by training no (unless you count A-Level History I guess). Just an interest I suppose.
@@usuallyhapless9481 well you could have fooled me and half of your subscribers I imagine. I'm glad to see your channel doing so well, I think with documentaries of this quality your channel is set for exponential growth. All the best.
This was such a treat! Can we hope to see more? Peloponnesian War is such a great source of topics for discussions and thinking, from a tactical to strategic level. I like how you said correctly that Sparta relied on an image of its army, until today, more than on an actual fighting demonstration, due to very limited and shrinking number of “proper” Spartans. Marketing in practice, 430BC.
Thank you ! Greece and Rome at war from Connolly, wonderfull book which has enlighted my winter's evenings when i was a teenager ! Remembering the marvelous illustration.
Yeah there are similarities, I think it's more like the US & USSR with one nation as a hegemony over less powerful allies. The Peloponnesian war kicked off as an escalation of smaller conflicts between client states/allies.
Yep. This is one of the reasons why History of the Peloponnsian War is such an International Relations staple: Thucydides might be talking about a specific historical event, but he's focusing in on baseline human behaviour and the reasons behind it.
The lesson about passing out on peace in exchange for a non-decisive military victory speaks volumes in the reignition of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict of the last days. It sounds crazy but some time ago peace was on the table, it _could_ be achievable, not easily but certainly more than it can now, yet both sides unilaterally decided that they could gain more with the conflict tomorrow than they would win with peace today, and so we have what we have today.
Frequently the difficulty isn't peace but lasting peace. In the specific case of Pylos, a peace treaty might have stopped the fighting for a while, but it didn't resolve the issues that brought Athens and Sparta into conflict in the first place. This is exactly what happened a few years later with the Peace of Nicias: there was just peace, not resolution and within a decade the war was officially back on again.
Good vid mate. I saw some military historian recently calling in question how the phalanx faught. The 8 row deep, they belive, had rows of archers in between every couple of rows. It could also make the backrows more flexible. I dunno the validity of it, but fun to think about how little we actually know about how they fought
Yeah, there's some movement on how phalanxs actually fought. We'll never know, though I suspect cramming archers into the same formation is a bad idea: they can't see anything, can't aim , can only fire up in the air, there are command and control issues... not convinced.
@@usuallyhapless9481 the vase you showed in your vid has archers after a line of spears, i mean i could see it as something that could be before the lines met. Then they filter through the back and flank the other line. Dunno 😁
I dont remember if it was kings and generals or invicta channel but i think they started series of lectures about reconsidering ancient greek warfare. You start with common explanation about pushing, 8 ranks deep, little coordination and so on but then you show these adorable contradicting pictures that pretty much show exactly what i am talking about. Combat had to be more fluid and more maneuver focused, whole story about battle shows that kind of thinking. I am not saying that they never fought in tight deep formations pushing on each other but saying that greek hoplite was supposed to fight like this is wrong and unrealistic. It doesn't take genius to realize how about using guys from ranks behind to envelope enemy...
So yes- I did watch something along those lines (waiting for part 2, IIRC). And there is plenty of evidence even from the histories that hoplite warfare was considerably more fluid: how do you charge down the beach Marathon or across the sand at Cunaxa while maintaining a tight formation? In the end, it was simpler to focus on the 'conventional basics' for a video about Pylos (it was already long enough!). There may or may not have been tactical considerations on the island: did the missile fire of hordes of light troops encourage the Spartans to spread out? Were they so outnumbered that clumping up into a tight phalanx would lose them the freedom of manoeuvre they needed to prevent themselves being totally surrounded? Those are interesting questions, but I don't think they would have changed the outcome that much.
My favorite part is when the Athenians used their T-72s to sweep around the Spartan flank, but the Spartans used Javelins to destroy them.
Yes, that was a crucial moment in the battle.
My favorite part was when the Spartans sent their armored cavalry up the left map edge to contest the objective in the last minute of the battle.
It would be pretty funny to see a thrown javelin (little J) take out a T-72.
Hahaha
@@usuallyhapless9481 Remember, even non-penetrating hits can damage subsystems.
Was not expecting Hapless to go ancient on us. A surprise but a welcome one to be sure.
You are truly transforming from an educational simulation youtuber, into a historical and warfare channel. I enjoyed every minute of it ❤
As a person who was drawn to modern strategy and tactics because of an interest in classical warfare, Thucydides in particular, this video is an amazing collision of two interests. Looking forward to all future War Room episodes, and very excited to think that more classical battles could be on the table.
This was simply brilliant, you have real talent for explaining the details in a way that's easy to understand and entertaining to listen to. I think this is up there with the likes of Kings & Generals, History Marche & Invicta in terms of quality of content. I particularly like the carving out of the problems facing both sides and their weighing up of the risks and rewards, it makes it so much more tangible than other histories/documentaries I've watched. Your use of maps presents the situation in a manner that allows the viewer to get into the heads of the commanders so as to understand their perspectives given the fog of war. I'd certainly be up for seeing more content on the Peloponnesian war.
Great job!
What's your background Hapless? Are you a trained historian or just a hobbyist?
He is a world treasure. Every night my whole family is made to watch Scottish Corridor on repeat until I fall asleep. But yeah your right, his descriptive nature really is a talent and it's certainly something potent.
@joseywales3848 Thanks very much man! Good to see you in the comments again.
I am not a historian by training no (unless you count A-Level History I guess). Just an interest I suppose.
@@usuallyhapless9481 well you could have fooled me and half of your subscribers I imagine. I'm glad to see your channel doing so well, I think with documentaries of this quality your channel is set for exponential growth. All the best.
I really love the diversity in content. I want this channel to explode!
This was such a treat! Can we hope to see more?
Peloponnesian War is such a great source of topics for discussions and thinking, from a tactical to strategic level.
I like how you said correctly that Sparta relied on an image of its army, until today, more than on an actual fighting demonstration, due to very limited and shrinking number of “proper” Spartans. Marketing in practice, 430BC.
The War Room is a great series
Absolutely excellent as always. That trick with the painting when the Spartans got outflanked was neat
Excellent video - in every aspect! And you have shot Thucydides to the top of my 'to be read next' stack. Thanks. 😊
A fantastic episode in an already fantastic series
Thank you so much! There's another one coming this Friday ;)
good videos man, always enjoy your format and the effort you put into these videos
I read my Thucydides a good forty years ago. Basically the first 'real' history, as opposed to tall tales and anecdotes of the other historians.
Alright, this is too much quality Hapless. You just made yourself a new patron.
Thank you so much! The Patreon is couple of weeks ahead right now, so there's a few more videos over there.
Could we have the Bibliography used in the description ? Eager to watch your doc !
I always forget the bibliography. Added to the description!
Thank you ! Greece and Rome at war from Connolly, wonderfull book which has enlighted my winter's evenings when i was a teenager ! Remembering the marvelous illustration.
Excellent as ever!
Thanks to this video I’ve noticed some similarities between the relationship of Sparta and Athens and Russia and the US.
Interesting 🤔
Yeah there are similarities, I think it's more like the US & USSR with one nation as a hegemony over less powerful allies. The Peloponnesian war kicked off as an escalation of smaller conflicts between client states/allies.
Yep. This is one of the reasons why History of the Peloponnsian War is such an International Relations staple: Thucydides might be talking about a specific historical event, but he's focusing in on baseline human behaviour and the reasons behind it.
The lesson about passing out on peace in exchange for a non-decisive military victory speaks volumes in the reignition of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict of the last days. It sounds crazy but some time ago peace was on the table, it _could_ be achievable, not easily but certainly more than it can now, yet both sides unilaterally decided that they could gain more with the conflict tomorrow than they would win with peace today, and so we have what we have today.
Frequently the difficulty isn't peace but lasting peace. In the specific case of Pylos, a peace treaty might have stopped the fighting for a while, but it didn't resolve the issues that brought Athens and Sparta into conflict in the first place. This is exactly what happened a few years later with the Peace of Nicias: there was just peace, not resolution and within a decade the war was officially back on again.
Another glorious hapless video.
Good vid mate. I saw some military historian recently calling in question how the phalanx faught. The 8 row deep, they belive, had rows of archers in between every couple of rows. It could also make the backrows more flexible. I dunno the validity of it, but fun to think about how little we actually know about how they fought
Yeah, there's some movement on how phalanxs actually fought. We'll never know, though I suspect cramming archers into the same formation is a bad idea: they can't see anything, can't aim , can only fire up in the air, there are command and control issues... not convinced.
@@usuallyhapless9481 the vase you showed in your vid has archers after a line of spears, i mean i could see it as something that could be before the lines met. Then they filter through the back and flank the other line. Dunno 😁
A surprise to be sure, but a pleasant one.
Interesting topic! Very unexpected!
If this becomes a regular thing you might have to change your name to 'Usually Hoplites'... :D
Ha! Maybe. As much as a specific Peloponnesian War series is attractive, the plan is to jump around history for a little bit first.
We don't deserve this man.
True, he's another level!
now this is something new
awe man - I have to be at work in 28 minutes :(
something to look forward to man. have a good day.
Use double speed!
The time honored greek tradition of fighting other greeks
I dont remember if it was kings and generals or invicta channel but i think they started series of lectures about reconsidering ancient greek warfare.
You start with common explanation about pushing, 8 ranks deep, little coordination and so on but then you show these adorable contradicting pictures that pretty much show exactly what i am talking about.
Combat had to be more fluid and more maneuver focused, whole story about battle shows that kind of thinking. I am not saying that they never fought in tight deep formations pushing on each other but saying that greek hoplite was supposed to fight like this is wrong and unrealistic.
It doesn't take genius to realize how about using guys from ranks behind to envelope enemy...
So yes- I did watch something along those lines (waiting for part 2, IIRC). And there is plenty of evidence even from the histories that hoplite warfare was considerably more fluid: how do you charge down the beach Marathon or across the sand at Cunaxa while maintaining a tight formation?
In the end, it was simpler to focus on the 'conventional basics' for a video about Pylos (it was already long enough!). There may or may not have been tactical considerations on the island: did the missile fire of hordes of light troops encourage the Spartans to spread out? Were they so outnumbered that clumping up into a tight phalanx would lose them the freedom of manoeuvre they needed to prevent themselves being totally surrounded?
Those are interesting questions, but I don't think they would have changed the outcome that much.