Hey everyone, I hope you all enjoyed the video! At 9:17 I definitely meant to say 2941 - 2942 of the Third Age. Lol just a thousand years off, that's all.
If Saruman had stayed good I do not think that the Two Towers could have existed and the Lord of the Rings trilogy may have been shortened to only one book or if they book series was creative enough to come up with other good ideas besides Saruman becoming a villain there would be two, but obviously without the Two Towers since Saruman was largely responsible for that event instead of Sauron. Now there might also still be a Grima Wormtongue as a villain used to corrupt the King of Rohan's mind, but obviously not serving under Saruman. Also, it is entirely possible that the King of Gondor could still be corrupt, but again without Saruman's involvement it would be Sauron who would need to get more directly involved in making attacks towards those who stand in his way including the King of Rohan and King of Gondor instead of Saurman by using Sauron's Nazgul and the Witch king of Angmar to command their army for attacking the human race and possibly elves as well.
Or would the original timeline be the regular hard mode? If that is the case then what would be the harder than hard unfair mode (like legendary from Halo or veteran from Call of Duty)?
We only got 're see a hand full of elves, in combined LOTR and Hobbit, Legolas, Galadril, the male in LOTR who dies at helms deep. Elrond. Then really only Thrandrul and the She elve who gets killed, who wants Killi over Legolas es little woody prick...
Why couldn't they have just, staged a little battle before the amazing of darkbess, and have the eagles fly them, right to the mouthpipe of my doom....
In some of Tolkien's material, it's mentioned Saruman realized, for a time, just what he'd gotten himself into when he threw his lot in with Sauron and intended to ask Gandalf to rejoin them. However, Gandalf escaped, Saruman was humiliated, and any thought of reconsidering his position disappeared.
GOD: I needed him for the next song of creation.....you won't be disappointed. For real though. He was such a great human being with lots of stories and wisdom. And I honestly feel he was probably the best actor this world has given us if not then one of. You live forever in your portrayals of great and awesome characters, especially the evil ones MUUUHAHAHAHAHAHA
Me too, he did a really great job taking the role of Saurman. This is the one film role from Christopher Lee that we shall not forget as the LOTR fans.
The tragedy of this alternative ending is that due to the extended length of the adventure, Bag End got auctioned off long before Bilbo returned to the Shire.
Veteran compensation in the Shire is atrocious. Just look at old man Bilbo. He lost his hobbit hole and can't even afford to have five full meals a day. Most folk don't even know the sacrifices their heroes endured to secure peace, freedom, and justice for their new empire.
That's fine. Bilbo at that point had amassed enough wealth to buy it back 10 times over, or even start over on a new plot and build an underground mansion; he'd definitely get excavation halp from the dwarves for everything he did for their people.
Not the ending in the books. Saruman doesn't die at his lair but escapes to the Shire along with Wormtongue. They take over the Shire while the Frodo and Sam are away completing their journey. The returning hobbits have to re-establish order in the Shire through a violent battle. It's a very dramatic ending unlike the Movie that has the heroes simply returning home in a namby-pamby way.
@KyodaiKen1979 He would eventually. When Boromir died in Aragorn's arms, he said he would've followed him. Boromir wasn't as stubborn and reluctant to give up power as his father.
There MUST be a plot where Boromir dies. Name ONE movie or even a show where Sean Bean's character doesn't die. I'll check back with you in a few years. Time enough for Sean Bean to finally accept such a role in an upcoming production in the near future, and ultimately break his streak of always dying.
"And maybe that's the moral of the story: we must always remain true to out friends." Hm, okay. Let's try this theory in the other direction. *clicks on "What if Gandalf Joined Saruman", because they are friends*
It's a good story, I'll give it that. The only downside is that when Bilbo finally returned to the Shire all his stuff would be long gone and the Sackville-Baggins would be living in Bag End.
@DaM0ful It would be like "u see that huge land starting around the Bree and ending somewhere close to Fornost and Grey Havens? I buy it, good deal, isnt it? xD "
Well, he could get his stuff back by pleading with the Shire's Mayor and he pretty much would have a very strong case - and powerful friends to do so in this timeline. He would also feel tempted to go to the mountains again,and would likely travel alongside young Frodo and show this boy the wonders of the world, now safer to adventure around without the Dark Lord Sauron in it.
Saruman was originally a Maia whose weaknesses was power and jealousy. His desire to be all-knowing led him to his eventual corruption, yet his lust for power also led him to betray his friends and eventually betray Sauron to further his own interests. Saruman was also jealous of Gandalf (at least from the books it seemed that way). Great video on a great character. Christopher Lee nailed Saruman even though Peter Jackson changed his ending from the books.
Saruman: It is so difficult to fight Sauron, that it is impossible. Gandalf: Dude, you just made it so, if you didnt join him, we would beat him with ease.
The ending off this should be "as they are upon the ship that leaves mithlond. Saruman would hug Gandalf and say. "We did this together my friend. My dear Olorin. We can finally go home. And rest." Gandalf stares back at him and would say"i could not have done this without you. Curumo the wise" they then leave mithlond and set a course for valinor you can hear the laughter of Gandalf and Saruman as they change their forms back to what they looked like before they left Valinor. And they came back as best friend. As they reenter valinor as Olorin and Curumo. Once again The End There and back again by bilbo baggins."
@@bob5510 No. It's what most Star Wars Lore fans use to measure the timeline of the Star Wars universe (both in Legends and Canon because there is no concrete way of how time is measured in the SWs Universe). BBY means "Before The Battle of Yavin" and the other being ABY "After The Battle of Yavin".
Yeah, no kidding, the only person I’d add would be Obi-Wan, because then Christoper lee gets to be a happy, if rather imposing best friend forever with his buddies Gandalf and obi-wan. It’s all he ever wanted :)
This is a theory that has really interested me for a long time. And I think Saruman being good would have really changed The War of The Ring quite a bit, and would have made The Fellowships journey to Mordor a lot easier, obviously lol. :)
@ Luke Skywalker the 2nd That last remark of you says it all , and it's why Saruman was truly meant to betray them, as he was also meant to try to doublecross Sauron, because above all else he wanted the One Ring for himself.
I dont think it would change a lot, if Saruman had stayed good, he would be kinda Helpful at defending Minas Tirith and they would not have lost any warriors at helmst deep (depending on if sauron would have attacked helms deep himself) but the key plan getting frodo and sam to mount doom and destroying the ring without sauron noticing would be the same wether or not saruman was good.
Darth Nihilus Tony machavelli Is it... Ask Sharu-kin (sargon of akkad), assyrians, persians, Alexander the great, Roman Cesars, Mongol khans etc. Or let us ask what do the folk in NWO think.
Alleged awesome magical ring. Lets be honest there is a lot of Hype about the One Ring... but it didn't exactly do any favors to the people wielding it. Other than keeping Sarumon alive after his death. It kind of failed to control the races of Middle earth, he got a super big ego and got taken down by a single sword swipe and so on.
12:15 not sure that Bilbo wouldn't have sailed west eventually as in the book even Sam sails west (as mentioned in the appendices) and he'd only carried the ring for a short while.
Few problems that could complicate the story from just being "super easy mode Lord of the Rings". 1. If Gandalf was with Bilbo and the dwarfs as they went through the forest, they likely would have gotten through without running into the elves or spiders. They were actually way closer to the exit than they thought when they desperately left the path to hunt a deer, and Gandalf likely would have kept them on track. That means the elf-king would have no reason to be heading towards Lake Town in force in pursuit of the dwarves, putting him at least several days behind the original timeline if he still sent aid after Smaug's defeat, and assuming that aid was still his full fighting force. This could result in the elf army being too late for the Battle of Five Armies and the resistance against the orcs being much, much weaker. Erebor and Lake Town, in all likelihood, get overrun with maybe Bilbo and Gandalf escaping. 2. Theodin's grandfather was, by all accounts, not a good king. Part of the journey would be going to Gondor and convincing his son to go lead the people where his father wouldn't. 3. Without the last stand of the free people distracting him, Sauron would have no reason to empty his land of orcs, meaning the White Council would have an army to contend with on top of the Nazgul. In the books he was still sending small fractions of his armies out to test Gondor's strength, reserving most orcs in Mordor.
I would hope the upcoming television program would present Bombadil in that light. He's a creature of paradox not straight storytelling and that's important.
Shelob also had no interest or desire in the ring. "Little she knew of or cared for towers, or rings, or anything devised by mind or hand," The Two Towers. "Shelobs Lair" page 333
Thomas Walsh That indicates to me her feral and bestial nature rather than any kind of immunity. The same way Farmer Maggot's dog probably felt no temptation to take the ring when Frodo stayed with him.
@Neurotica Combustion Ungoliant is primordial evil/darkness from before the music of creation. So It would make sense that Shelob her daughter would be 100% immune to/not interested in the one ring
If Sauron noticed the fellowship entering his domain like the narrator says then I believe he wont only sent the nine to stop them but Mordor's entire army that means hordes of orcs, uruk-hai, trolls of any kind, felbeast and other monsters briefly mentioned in the book such as werewolves etc So that begs the question would the fellowship survive such an onslaught or they'll be eventually overwhelmed and destroyed one by one
@@Xlen-omega Well basically no the "Uruk hai" existed long before They were known as "Black Uruks" Saruman's Uruk hai were better though more closer to humans in appearance Even so after Saruman's demise many remnants of his Uruk hai went to Mordor and joined Sauron's army
I think I have found a flaw in your theory. If Thrain had still been alive, and joined with his sons company, then they would not have sought a 15th member. Bilbo was chosen to accompany the Dwarves to offset the 'unlucky' number 13. If Thrain had been there, they already would have their 14th member and not asked Gandalf to find another one.
Just as Bob Smith says sorry on the premonition of Gandalf having seen, or dreamed of the great things bilbo might accomplish would have brought him anyway. Plus having a thief always makes sneaking into a mountain fortress easier.
Even if everything had remained the same up until the start of The Fellowship of the Ring, Saruman remaining good and overcoming the temptations of the One Ring and Sauron, things would have been far easier for the Fellowship. Because Gandalf wouldn't have been imprisoned by Saruman, he would have met Aragorn and the Hobbits at Bree. Frodo may have not been stabbed at Weathertop with both Aragorn and Gandalf there. They wouldn't need to contend with the Uruk-Hai or the threat of Saruman's spells and forces, even possibly not needing to go through Moria as they could just have taken the Gap of Rohan. Even if they needed to continue through Moria Boromir would have likely lived, and Saruman might have left his tower to continue Gandalf's work until his resurrection as a White Wizard. Boromir might not have tried to take the Ring from Frodo due to Saruman's commanding voice. The Battle of Helms Deep and all the ill that had befallen Rohan would have likely not happened leaving them at full strength to aid Gondor. Gandalf and Saruman would have likely rallied the Ents and possibly the Dwarves as Frodo and Sam sneaked into Mordor. Gollum's greed would have still been the undoing of the One Ring, trying to take it from Frodo in the Crack of Doom and falling with his precious to his doom. With the One Ring's destruction, the War of the Ring and the Third Age would come to an early close, with less loss of life and hardship. The Shire wouldn't have been scorched, Gondor and Rohan would have not suffered as much and the Fourth age would have been an even more prosperous time for Mankind as the Elves started to take leave of Middle Earth along with Gandalf and Saruman. Frodo might not have left until much later since he wouldn't have had as much of a toll taken on him as in the canon timeline, however I could see him leaving with Sam who after a long life would continue to follow his friend as was his family's duty to the Bagins. In the end Saruman remaining loyal to his friends would have worked out better for nearly everyone including Saruman and probably Grima Wormtongue.
If all that did happen, as much as i wouldve liked saruman to stay good. We wouldn't have the masterpiece we now call the lord of the rings. It just wouldn't be the same, wouldn't make for as good of a story.
Sarumon wouldnt of left his tower! The place where isengard was stationed was à very good strategic point to counter attacks saurons forces! Leaving it unguarded would of been giving sauron a foothold deep into middle-earth.
Alternatively, instead of taking the Gap of Rohan, they could take the Pass at Caradhras which would not have been affected by Saruman’s weather-controlling spell against the Fellowship
Your videos are both equally entertaining and informative. This is as close to perfect from any TH-camr out there speaking about Tolkien's work. I'd actually love to know if there's enough info on Eru Illuvatar, the origins of The One to make a video, or maybe enough info on he interactions between the Valar, namely Manwe, and Eru? Excellent channel and please keep the videos coming!
It's rather obvious having the most powerful deity on the side of good would have greatly sped up the story. Afterall, he's basically the only one of the wizards who could turn a battle around by simply talking, which technically doesn't violate his god given handicap to never straight up overpower the enemy. If he could deal with the Witch King of Angmar without even leaving Orthanc, imagine what he could do to lesser creatures in person. I believe only Gandalf the White was completely immune to Saruman's voice, as he's essentially Saruman as he should have been.
the astari were angelic figures but there is still a pantheon of people with more power than Saruman, (there is also the fact that Souron even with his powers divided was stronger than Saruman and possibly the wizards all put together).
@@henrypaleveda7760 Of course there are more powerful beings, but I was really only referring to those present... Not really counting Sauron given he is weakened and mostly bound to his tower.
@@henrypaleveda7760 There likely weren't, with the exception of Sauron, the rule is roughly that you have to be at most on par with those you are facing. So if Gandalf is in the Shire he does what are basically party tricks with fireworks. And when he is Moria fighting a Balrog he creates a force field and falls thousands of feet cuts down the creature three times his size and comes back from the dead. They scale.
If Thrain is alive and well, then it's far from certain that Bilbo would the expedition to Erebor. A big part of the reason for searching out another party member was to avoid unlucky number 13.
Hey, this was really interesting! There are a lot of good points, but also some problems: Firstly, the Quest for Erebor might have turned better, because Thráin, who had just been jailed for a very long time and dispossessed of his ring (which would probably give him more humility) would be in command and because Gandalf and his advices would be there. Those factors would probably help to avoid the crisis with the Men of Laketown, and there would probably be at least some survivors in the Dwarven royalty after the battle. There also probably would't be any problem with Thranduil's Elves. Now, the White Council almost certainly wouldn't go with Bilbo in its entierty, for the same reasons they didn't in the actual book. They have realms to manage, would be more easily spotted by the Enemy due to the tremendous stregth of their combined power, etc. A good Saruman, though, might very well take the journey, as Orthanc was simply his home. A council similar to the one that took place in Rivendell during LOTR would probably be called in Isengard, and a Fellowship would be formed by Gandalf, Bilbo, Saruman and members of other realms. Amongst them, Elrond would probably send his sons, and Erebor would most likely send someone out of gratitude. As most of the "true" Fellowship was royalty, I believe Thorin, if Thráin survived (Thorin was already relatively old, though), or Fíli or Kíli or both would probably be the chosen one(s)! Or maybe Balin, because of his amity with our Hobbit? Hey, maybe Denethor's father himself (Ecthelion) could be a member too, as his own father was still the Steward! And Legolas could come in this timeline just as he did in the canon one. Finally, I'd say the Nazgûl, even in Mordor, wouldn't even be the shadow of a match for the full White Council. Hell, Sauron himself wouldn't be if it wasn't for the limitations given to the Wizards by the Valar! Moreover, he had less time to recover his strenght in this timeline. Against only Saruman, Gandalf and a bunch of skilled fighters, they would still most probably lose, but I think they could give them a good challenge. That being said, I also think you overestimate the strenght of the Ring's hold over Bilbo: at this point, he had owned it for a time far shorter than even Frodo had and, as I already said, Sauron would be weaker. And the journey would have been easier with a Fellowhip that powerful, and undivided. With all that, and the voice of Saruman as an extra, I think Bilbo could throw the Ring himself. The only setback for the Free Peoples I can see with this timeline is that no one would deal with Durin's Bane. Well, maybe, maybe with Sauron out of the picture the Valar could allow the Istari to unleash their full power against him as he would after all be the last notable servant of Morgoth in Middle-earth and isn't some kind of dark lord that could inspire a tentation of power, and the Balrog would most certainly lose against them as the weakened Gandalf alone actually met success at the job, but I don't know if the Wizards themselves would be overjoyed with the perspective. That and the fact that the return of the King might prove more difficult as Aragorn wouldn't come providencially in times of need. On the other hand, though, he could still work as Thorongil for a time against Harad, Rhûn and Umbar(let's remember Ecthelion was quite fond of him), and maybe focus on rebuilding Arnor first before being accepted as king in Gondor, so who knows? EDIT: Another thing is that I don't think Bilbo would necessarily be part of the trip. As he and Frodo didn't keep it for years, Hobbits hadn't yet made the proof of their resilience against the Ring, so, while Gandalf probably wouldn't want to carry it to Isengard himself in fear of tentation, plus the fact that a seat at the council as the Ringfounder wouldn't be out of place, he doesn't really have a reason to bring Bilbo further with him, even though he likes Hobbits. Especially as he likes them (and Bilbo in particular), actually! That being said, Bilbo could of course propose himself as his nephew did!
What if, during the council at Elrond’s house when Frodo was chosen to carry the One Ring. Frodo, either Declined, or simply was not chosen by the council. I think this is a particularly interesting “what if” considering that Gandalf knew that Frodo was ideal as a ring bearer, but was reluctant to place such a heavy burden on him. Perhaps Sam, Merry or Pippin would have carried the ring. Although I feel that this would have just resulted in a similar story as LOTR . perhaps Elrond, Gimley, or Legolas and Boromir would have held the ring in an attempt to destroy it at Mount Doom. I think the possibilities are endless.
So what would happen if Sauron reclaimed Middle Earth? Will Valinor be invaded again and a second war of wrath would occur? Will the Noldor reclaim the lands lost?
One observation: I believe you meant 2941 - 2942 of the Third age rather than 3941 - 3942. Great video as always! It was hard to choose from choices in the poll you put up and I wish you could do them all! Keep it up!
@@MenoftheWest What if after the Discord caused by Melkor in the Music of creation, Melkor changed his ways and remained loyal to Eru and all the other Valar became evil and attempted to take the Imperishable Flame?
It is, but Gandalf never would have touched the ring. It would have been difficult for him to snatch it from Bilbo, wouldn't it have been? Though, maybe if it was just a second.
Looking forward to the next one! I've always wondered what would have happened if Sauron hadn't thrown his chance of redemption away with the ring making scheme. Both he and Gollum, longest bearers of the one ring, begin their possession of it with the murder of a friend. You might even push to say best friend, depending on how you read the text for each. In any case - what would have happened if Sauron had "seen the light" while working as Annatar and truly sought an alliance with Celebrimbor and the elves? Where would they have led Middle Earth with a Sauron working to redeem himself, openly or otherwise, I wonder. Especially factoring in whether or not you think the one ring would be present in this narrative, and what effects it would have on all involved. Could Sauron have done it, or like Gollum, would his own corruption and shadow catch up with him no matter how far he tried to outrun it?
Great question! Great scenario and execution! As you said, there is no wrong answer, but here are my own tweaks: 1/I sure hope Gandalf doesn't need to take the Ring from Bilbo by force, but manages to persuade him, or if he doesn't, then asks for another bearer (as refusal would be a sign that Bilbo IS being influenced/corrupted rather fast). 2/I also doubt too many members of White Council joining the Fellowship, as the whole idea was secrecy and they're very high profile, and as most of them are needed elsewhere to organize the various people of Middle Earth. 3/Assuming that Gandalf is present when that decision is taken, they would probably have avoided Cirith Ungol (see his reaction when Faramir lets him know the path Gollum is leading Frodo and Sam on [original timeline]). 4/Finally, with the presence of Gandalf, Gollum might have resorted to giving incomplete (no mention of the Ring) intelligence about the Fellowship to Sauron's informants, hoping to get his hands on the One this way. 5/Though most of the way would have been easier in this timeline, the path from the choosen entery point into Morodor to Orodruin would have been harsher, as stealth and water supply become primary factors (and with a larger, hevier-footed group...). That's where Saroumane, as a real ally of both the Council and Rohan, organizes with Gondor enough turmoil to get Sauron's gaze and attention out of Mordor while the company progresses. 6/Faramir is too young, but maybe a wise and gifted ranger gets "recruited" on the threshold of Mordor, wich helps make (5) work. Keep up the good work!
the bagpipe part of the soundrack made me cry, bagpipes always do that to me. love this content though! not just the theories and breakdowns, but the featured art
I just recorded a video on this topic as a Patreon benefit. I luckily hadn’t seen yours before so it was interesting to be able to watch this after recording to see where we agree and where we differ. Stay tuned!
@@MenoftheWest well not strictly patrons only, but one of my support levels entitles the patron to pick a video topic, so the video will be public when it launches. :)
Interesting You can see why JRR took the white council out of the picture and having Saruman turn bad As the forces of Mordor would be less developed at this time, perhaps the wizards/elves/dwarves could have arranged for the armies of men/elves/dwarves to march on the black gates at the same time as the white council and Bilbo took their route Surely Sauron would have recognised the power coming into his lands and moved the 12 Nazgul (any any other nefarious forces) to counter them while they were in the marshes - only a direct threat coming through the gates and into his lands might have forced him to split his more limited forces But if he sensed the ring, wouldn't he go all out to prevent the plans regarding Mount Doom ? Very cool exercise Doing this increases your appreciation of the genius of Tolkein - everything had a point
"They're taking the Hobbits to Isengard," said Legolas in a calm and happy voice, as that is where the forces of the Free Folk had gathered for their final assault on Mordor under the guidance and leadership of White Council of which is led by Sauraman the White. Still could happen.
They can still take the hobbits to Isengard. Perhaps Saruman finds it too inconvenient to travel to Elrond’s council, just like how Galadriel stays put. The Fellowship would still stop by Isengard to say hello to Saruman and maybe get some sage-like wisdom from him. They can use Saruman’s palantir at Orthanc to help them plan out their path.
Its interesting. Saruman was an Maia. But he and Gandalf weren't sent in angelic form but rather in the body's of old men. Saruman turning to greed and power, was so very human of him. Gandalf was known as the wisest of all maia I believe, so even trapped in a human body for a great deal of time, his intentions stayed noble.
Fabled Fantasy Not that Gandalf was the wisest. That actually goes to Saruman. However, Gandalf was the most humble. He didn’t think himself worthy to become one of the Istari & he was afraid. I also believe it has something to do with the particular Valar that each of them served. It determined a bit of their temperament. Radagast served a nature Valar therefore he was obsessed with the natural world to the point that he failed the commission of the Wizards to help guide the races of Middle Earth against Sauron. I believe, & this is where my memory fails me, that Saruman served a Valar of wisdom therefore his lust for knowledge which turned into a lust for power. I cannot remember the particulars of the Valar that Gandalf served but I believe it had an effect on the kind of person that he was.
You're thinking of Nienna the Valië, sister of Mandos (whose real name is Námo) rather than wife. The wife of Lord Námo is Vairë, she who decorated the Halls of Mandos with many tapestries depicting the world's history. Gandalf, who was also known as the Maia named Olórin, worked for a few different Valar: Nienna, Lord Irmo of the Gardens of Lórien, and the Elder King Manwë, brother of Melkor.
LUKA Thank you got the response. I’ve still yet to read the Silmarilion. Though my memory could be tainted by the movies & this not actually be in the LOTR books Gandalf says that Saruman is the wisest of them which is what I was basing it off of. But that can be credited again to Galdalf’s humility
Gandalf: "I fear that the one ring has resurfaced!" Saruman: "How can you be sure about that? May I see that ring for myself, for a quick identify-spell, please?" Gandalf: "Frodo, give him the ring!" Froddo: "Here you are!" Saruman grabs the ring, fails his saving throw and is utterly corrupted to evil. Saruman kills off Frodo and Gandalf by beating the crap out of them with his staff and lives unhappily ever after. End of the story.
Paul A. The wizards came after the Last Alliance to stave off the influence of Sauron. If Isildur had heeded Cirdan and Elrond and destroyed the ring right after the battle the wizards would have never left Valinor to go to Middle Earth.
Then the whole saga really ends with the end of the Second Age.... Isildur being King in the North and High King, Anarion's eldest son being King in Gondor. No Sauron, no Nazgul in the third age, and a time of peace, prosperity and progress for the Kingdoms of Men (BTW-- Arnor would not have been split into three Kingdoms and then fallen piece by piece, since the Witchking never was and Angmar didn't come about without him....). Still would have been a problem with Dragons here and there, but Smaug would have been an isolated threat, not a potential weapon for Sauron to use against all the North. The Dwarves would still have had a major problem in Moria sooner or later when they ran into the Balrog-- either Moria is just plain lost never to be recovered... or, without the threat of Angmar, maybe Glorfindel would feel like killing another Balrog before leaving Middle Earth.... I suppose the Professor could have written a great set of books about the battles to end the Second Age, instead of his wonderful trilogy about the end of the Third Age that we all know and love.
Given that Bilbo gave up the ring without knowing what it really was after having it for as long as he did, I think he'd be able to destroy it without help from Gollum right after he got it.
I'm really intrigued by this hypothetical timeline! Just out of curiosity, would you envision the entire White Council (like Radagast, Cirdan, Glorfindel and even the Blue Wizards) joining the Fellowship with Bilbo? Or just the more prominent players like Saruman, Gandalf, Galadriel and Elrond? Either way, they would be the most OP Fellowship in existence lol
I really liked this but, I'd make two changes. - I think the nine would get dunked on by the wise. I always imagined a nazgul < balrog and most the wise are on the balrog level of strength. Especially, if they had the elves with them and not just the wizards. They also might be able to get a Boromir in his prime as well and I'd imagine that would be a sight to see as he was described as mighty. Although, I might be wrong on the dates for that one he might be too young/not alive yet. -I'd agree with you on it being a faster overall clear. However, I think that Sauron wouldn't be able to recreate himself fast enough/establish himself fast enough to provide a real defense against the wise/wage war on gondor. So it's likely they could just march in with some kind of Gondorian or Rohirric elite squad to body guard the wise. But, I haven't really studied lotr in close to a decade so I could be wrong. Great video man!
I have a theory I'd like to suggest. What would happen if all the races of men, men of the West, easterlings, the southrons, the wildmen, and the mercenary pirates joined forces against sauron. Also, the men of the mountain were not summoned, the final battle was all the living forces of men vs the forces of sauron
It really depends what would happen with the one ring, that is the point of the story but even so although it would be close I still think Sauron would win
why does the possibility of Bilbo and Glorfindel traveling together along with the rest of the white council sound so awesome also; I can entertain the idea of Bilbo being inducted into the white council when they meet at Orthanc
Well, interesting theory. The weaknesses I see with it is: 1. The white councl would never have gotten so far as you say before being checked. They would have been caught before they ever reached Minas Morgul. And then the hosts of Mordor, and the nine would all stand between them and Orodruin. 2. Gollum would not have been able to catch up and find them with the ring, so the sollution with his intervention destroying the ring is impossible. 3. Some things that you include in this alternative timeline would probably not have happened either if Saruman had remained true. Such as the Quest for Erebor, Battle of Five armies etc. The white council would not have thought old Smaug a priority if they knew that they were hot on the rings trail. Which would have meant that they would not have found the Ring because Bilbo would have stayed at home and never gotten lost from the dwarves. Thus, in classic Tolkien manner, Saruman was MEANT to go evil, because Bilbo was MEANT to find the Ring, and that he would not have if Saruman had stayed true...
Wasn't Pippin looking into the Palantir that was cast out of Orthanc by Wormtongue what convinced Sauron that he had run out of time and had no choice but to march forth to war immediately and what distracted him by forcing him to focus his eye abroad? I seem to recall it having been said somewhere in the Two Towers that had Sauron focused on the borders of Mordor, there would be no hope of ever infiltrating it to destroy the one ring. Without this chance encounter through the Palantir (along with the chain of events that transpired at and after Argonath), without Sauron thinking Saruman may double crossed him and possibly even seized the One Ring, would he have acted so rashly? Would he have marched to war focusing his eye abroad if he did not perceive an immediate threat of the ring being turned against him? Or would he have acted more cautiously, secured the borders of his realm, and ultimately detected and defeated any attempt to infiltrate it...unless the One Ring were actually wielded against him? One of the great accomplishments of the Lord of the Rings is how perfectly everything fits together, how things seemingly inconsequential or even evil, like the treachery of Saruman, were all essential to the completion of the quest. It was an impossible quest that could not have been accomplished in any other way than precisely in the manner that it was, any change for good or ill would have doomed the quest, as though Illuvatar himself was conducting the Symphony of the Age.
True, but how much of that was from the influence of the ring? It is trixy and gets inside your head, after all. It nearly drove Boromir to steal the ring from Frodo and he never even had to touch it.
@@josiaharaki7310 to your point it took almost nothing to drive Smeagol to kill his cousin. It took a little bit longer for Boromir and the fact that Bilbo could give up the ring at all shows just how resilient hobbits could be if they chose to (though Bilbo had his moments of relapse). Bilbo even spared Gollum something that Smeagol did not do on his first encounter with the ring. We do need a 'what if' on Smeagol.
I love the bonus feature in ROTK where peter is talking to Christopher Lee about the noise Saruman makes when wormtongue stabs him in the back. Just the epic ness of Christopher Lee says oh I know the noise a man makes when he is stabbed in the back. Man just thinking about a young Christopher Lee sneaking around Nazi occupied territory killing Nazis is incredible.
As far as this theory goes, I enjoy and love this one the most. Saruman, with all his knowledge, could have been the great wizard he was always meant to be, had he not given into to jealousy of Gandalf and lust for power. Had he stayed true, I feel it very well could have gone along these lines.
A great video of an interesting theory. So much would've change if some key figures had not died (Thorin Oakenshield) or turned Evil (Saruman). Such theories are very thought-provoking and provide many new perspectives from which to look at our favourite stories, the choices the character could've made,the events that could've happened at a different time,under different circumstances or even not come to pass at all. Also I have an idea for a theory. What if the Entwives had been found during the Third Age (after the War of the Ring) or some time during the Fourth Age ? Perhaps a theory as to where they could've gone. Would they be able to return and reunite with the Ents ? If so, how much of an impact could it have made on both the forests and Middle-earth as a whole ?
What if after the Discord caused by Melkor in the Music of creation, Melkor changed his ways and remained loyal to Eru and all the other Valar became evil and attempted to take the Imperishable Flame?
Good video I love the way you tell the story and the graphics behind it and I enjoyed it, like well deserved, but I believe that this would not happen. Mair spirits send to middle earth (also known as Istari) to guide the free people and help them against Sauron could not fight Sauron (Ilu Iluvatar rule) thus they could not walk straight into Mordor but as in a book, they could make a Fellowship and select the best to be the part of it. They could visit the kings of free people to gather an army to attack Sauron, but they could not go that way with them. They could plan their battles and so on but direct fight no way. They were sent to guide against the Sauron not to fight against him. And the second thing that crossed my mind is that The Wise would definitely beat the Nazguls. Even Gandalf managed it on his own in the first LOTR book (they fled from him, but still). So if Gandalf could make them run away from his power, The Wise would have crushed them.
Good video and theory. Without the very public, well known, and epic victories at Pelargir, Pelennor, and the Black Gate, not to mention his feats as Thorongil, I have a hard time seeing Gondor accept Aragorn as king, no matter how good the claim is. I suspect a victory over Sauron the big enemy under the Stewards would further cement Gondorian opposition to accepting a chieftan from the north (keep in mind Gondor had already rejected a King from the north). Keep up the good videos, just my two cents.
My thoughts exactly, the losing war and Aragorn being a big part in saving Gondor was a big deal for why he ended up getting accepted. I have a hard time believing that the Gondorian people would accept him as king if he didnt save them at Pellenor Fields.
In this scenario, I see Aragorn becoming king of a restored Arnor, and maybe at some point in the future, one of his descendants could reunite the two kingdoms.
I can't get enough of your videos! I'm literally looking in my feed every day for your next video! Than you so much for your hard work, dedication, and your inspiration of Tolkien's lore that brings us much wanted entertainment!
Even though Tolkien says in his Letters that, of the five Istari, Gandalf was the only one who completed his mission, I like to think that Alatar and Pallando at least helped by preventing some of the powers in the East from coming to Sauron's aid.
Well, did Tolkien changed his view of them later in life, particularly speculating that they worked in the East and contributed to Western victories by somehow reducing the number of those who followed Sauron - the Easterners would have had many more troops to join the battle otherwise. I think there was also something about them working with the good people of the East. "Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion ... and after his first fall to search out his hiding (in which they failed) and to cause [?dissension and disarray] among the dark East ... They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of East ... who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have ... outnumbered the West." - Last Writings, The Peoples of Middle-earth
Just found your channel after going back to my favorite trilogy once again and I gotta say I can't get enough of your videos. Continue the good work my friend
First of all, this has been an amazing story, and I especially like how one can even draw a moral from it, as you did in the end. The only thing I would disagree with is Bilbo's seeming agreeableness along the journey to destroy the one ring. Frodo's defining quality as the ringbearer was a kind of pure innocence that he managed to keep, even when his naivety was taken from him. He was tempted to use the ring on his journey, yes - but only when he was commanded by the forces of Sauron to do so, or when he found himself in an equivalent danger. Bilbo, on the other hand, was, and had always been, a trickster. A rulebreaker. Even his journey towards the lonley mountain can be conceptualized as an integration of this shadow side of him, for he didn't become a great warrior, but a thief. Which is to say that I really think we need a follow-up video to this one, going further in-depth about the possibility of Bilbo Baggins being sent to Mount Doom with the one ring. Because you can bet that Bilbo's "Hold my Beer" attitude would have caused interesting trouble along the way.
Hmmmm, this theory has some plotholes. Indeed the fight would have been lots easier and troubles would have been spared. Frodo won't be stabbed by a morgul blade, Pippin and Merry don't meet the Ents and they won't be awakened at all. The Uruk-hai don't see daylight and Faramir won't marry Eowyn. Gandalf doesn't upgrade to the White and the Balrog in Moria won't be slain, making it still not a safe place for the Dwarves. Also, Tom Bombadil would never be seen, making the aftermath of the LOTR totally differently. The cursed army in the mountains still would remain there and the need for reforging Narsil is gone. The southerlings are a question mark though. Indeed there won't be an exorcism of Theoden and Wormtounge won't be seen. Boromir won't be so cocky and lives. Gimli and Legolas won't be friends for life, making the bond of Elves and Dwarves still troublish. No Helm's Deep. And last but not least: would Sam be courageous enough to ask Rosie Cotton to marry him? Would Frodo marry? No golden tree west of the Misty Mountains. his changes so much and save tons of lives, but makes new bonds undone, so the game isn't totally up. Indeed the story would be shorter and lots of lives are saved, but how will it affect the new generation? It sounds to me that the love will be less that way.
Well for most of your points? The characters don't exist/aren't born yet. Sam, Frodo, Merry, Pippin, Boromir, Theoden, Eomer (Not Faramir), Eowyn are all not born. The ruler of Rohan at the time is Theodan's grandfather, not Theoden. Legolas would probably have remained in the Mirkwood with Thranduil, and Gimli would have been doing dwarf stuff. The Fellowship from the Lord of the Rings books/movies literally would not exist at the time that this takes place. And Tom Bombadil not being seen isn't a huge loss. Your points that are chronologically impacted: The Southerlings would still be a threat but more of a bandit thing, like Orcs would be after Sauron's defeat. The Easterling invasion of Gondor likely wouldn't have happened. The cursed army would still be there, but such is the lot in life of oathbreakers and traitors. The Balrog probably *would* be defeated but it would be done by more than one member of the White Council, so it's either more even, or one sided much like the quest to return the Ring would be. I wouldn't call no battle of Helm's Deep or Uruk-hai a bad thing. Given that the White Council would probably place Aragorn on the throne of Gondor, the reforging of Narsil would still happen but the desperate need would be gone. It's stated at the time that this alternate timeline takes place he is still being fostered by Elrond's sons, which means he is still rather young even by dunedein standards.
I think it likely that Arwen would not be given to Aragorn, as he never proved himself a king, and would have had it handed to him at a much younger age; unless he does go, at the time of this story, to fight the Corsairs. Perhaps that would be enough for him to be revealed as the true king, but then would he and arwen even meet one another??? more likely a Dúnedain's daughter would be found for him.
WHAT IF FARAMIR HAD GONE TO IMLADRIS and not Captain Sharpe?!?! And I love you for doin this for us. I'm gonna start brewing more coffee at home and see if I can put away some coins for the Company.
I reckon he would still have this great fear of him. But may sacrafise himself for the forces of good. But would he come back like Gandalf..... Who knows
Well, as far as I remember all the wise knew that the ring had fallen with Isildur. Saruman just claimed that it had been washed into the sea, even though he did not believe it (maybe because he had already found the other things Isildur had on his body, esp. the elendilmir?), so that would be no news to anybody, Gandalf stated in the council of Elrond that the tale of Isildurs fall was known by all the wise. And with the final move against Dol Guldur Saruman was part of the team, BECAUSE he wanted the ring for himself- he wanted Sauron gone. So there would not have been more firepower. Maybe the White Council would have made their move sooner, I give you that. I doubt they would have been able to rescue Thrain, though. When Dol Guldur would have come under attack, prisinoers would have been killed. But Gandalf did not want to wait for Bilbo to come of age because of destiny. He just liked the hobbits and the idea struck him, partly because he wanted to put a bee in Thorins bonnet, because that dwarf was too proud by half. He just picked Bilbo by chance. (Chance as we call it in Middle Earth. Of course it was Eru). He could have picked any hobbit with a mixture of Took and something more "settled". Yes, he might have helped the dwarves, but if they had been "battleready" they would not have needed Bilbo, would not have taken him. And even if they did, why would they be separated at the high pass before the orcs had remultiplied? In your timeline they would still habe been few because of their wars with the dwarves, so they would not have attacked the party, Bilbo would not have gotten lost, would not have stumbled across the ring (and Gollum) and thus the ring would have stayed in the montains, maybe to have been found by an orc. No doubt Saruman (either never having fallen or having taken up Gandalfs offer to join him again after the fall of Isengard) would have been an immense asset to the Free Peoples of the West. But I doubt it would have taken place so unchanged. More pieces would be on other parts of the board, too.
This video reminds us how much pain and sorrow it could be brought if we don't stay true and faithful to our ideals and friends. We could even become the very thing we hate the most!
I feel like with Gandalf's presence in Mirkwood, talking with Thranduil, and then later at the Lonely Mountain to talk sense into the dwarves, the situation at Erebor would likely have been much less volatile and the Battle of the Five Armies would probably have been much more one sided in favor of the forces of good, and so Thorin, Thrain, Fili and Kili would very plausibly survive. As for Durin's Bane, well. Khazad-dum might well be lost forever to the Dwarves.
Wait, I'm confused. Are you saying that the expulsion of Sauron from Dol Goldur took place BEFORE the events of The Hobbit, or is that part of the alternate timeline? Because I thought that Thrain was killed in that process. I also thought that in "An Unexpected Journey" Saruman was still on the good side. So at what point exactly in your video do the timelines split? Because it's unclear in any of the canon at what point exactly Saruman turned. Also, if the ring was kept for safe keeping in Isengard, how did Gollum or Bilbo even get it? I also wondered about a quote from Elrond in An Unexpected Journey, talking about how they had a "hard-won, watchful peace" for 500 years. What exactly had happened 500 years earlier? Was he referring to the expulsion of Sauron that hadn't happened in the movie yet?
Saruman at first opposed attacking Sauron because he knew Sauron's power would draw out the Ring. He later changed his mind when he realized Sauron was using Dol Guldor as a base to look for the Ring. In the alternate timeline, the attack would have happened earlier.
You should do a video like this about the 5 Istari, including the Blue Wizards staying true to their task. Or a video about if the Blue Wizards had stayed in the west.
Thank you for this interesting video as always. I have some doubts about your theory though. First, I don´t think the White Council would have gotten into Mordor that easily - Sauron would have noticed their presence much earlier, and would send his Nazgul to hinder them. Note that Gandalf said during the Council of Elrond that within Mordor, Sauron had a much enhanced strength, while the White Council, even the bearers of the Three Rings, would be weakened. That´s why a powerful Elf-Lord like Glorfindel was not preferred by Gandalf over Pippin. Gandalf knew that absolute stealth would be the only way to enter Mordor. Furthermore, it´s unclear to me why Aragorn would become king in this timeline. The reason he could become King Elessar in the actual story is that he had proven himself a worthy successor of Elendil. If Sauron were defeated while Aragorn was still a young boy, Aragorn would not have had the chance to prove himself. The stewards of Gondor would most likely not have accepted Aragorn as their liege.
I think the assumption for that is that if the White Council stepped forward and said 'This is the lost line, accept him as your King", then Gondor would have grudgingly accepted it. You don't really say no to three wizards, and a bunch of elves.
It would most probably have led to a major war between Gondor and the White Council. The only reason Aragorn was accepted as the King of Gondor was due to his extraordinary feats in the War of the Ring - and the death of Denethor. His heritage alone was not enough - otherwise the other Chieftains of the Dunedain could have become King as well.
That was BEAUTIFUL. I feel like the only part of that I'd disagree with, however, would be Bilbo not sailing into the West. I feel like he'd sail irregardless of how corrupted the ring had made him, as he was a ring bearer, plain and simple.
I can imagine if he build an army worthy of Middle Earth One idea I had was something I got from the "Deltora Quest" books. Creatures called "Ols" misty creatures that are shape shifters Something temporary to atleast by them time Another idea was something I got from the anime called "Naruto" when it comes to a rare technique called "Kekkei Genkai" Like call certain people by a dream to gather at Isanguard
![ILLSLICK - KILLSHOT REMIX [FULL VERSION]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/RIK8RrqIAzE/mqdefault.jpg)
![ทุกครั้งที่หลับตา (Lucid Dream) - AYLA's [ Official MV ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/4i1OBAQyv58/mqdefault.jpg)
Hey everyone, I hope you all enjoyed the video! At 9:17 I definitely meant to say 2941 - 2942 of the Third Age. Lol just a thousand years off, that's all.
Please do ep What if Gondolin never fall .
You did the same for 12:10
where do you see the palantir coming in with saruman in this breakdown?
That was quite a delay in Isengard.
This video should’ve been called “what if saruman the wise hadn’t abandoned reason for madness?”
HA nice.
Fax
True
If Saruman had stayed good I do not think that the Two Towers could have existed and the Lord of the Rings trilogy may have been shortened to only one book or if they book series was creative enough to come up with other good ideas besides Saruman becoming a villain there would be two, but obviously without the Two Towers since Saruman was largely responsible for that event instead of Sauron. Now there might also still be a Grima Wormtongue as a villain used to corrupt the King of Rohan's mind, but obviously not serving under Saruman. Also, it is entirely possible that the King of Gondor could still be corrupt, but again without Saruman's involvement it would be Sauron who would need to get more directly involved in making attacks towards those who stand in his way including the King of Rohan and King of Gondor instead of Saurman by using Sauron's Nazgul and the Witch king of Angmar to command their army for attacking the human race and possibly elves as well.
Well they kinda cheesed the win. If they didn't pull the sneaky beaky Sauron would've CRUSHED THE ENEMY!
War of the Ring - Easy mode
So is the original timeline normal mode? If so what would be hard mode? What about very hard mode (the harder than hard unfair mode)?
Or would the original timeline be the regular hard mode? If that is the case then what would be the harder than hard unfair mode (like legendary from Halo or veteran from Call of Duty)?
@@philiproe1661 hard mode would be if Aragorn was incompetent, and impossible mode would be Gandalf turnjng to corruption
@@warrenward6294
Or maybe Gandalf simply doesn't come back from the dead in addition to Aragorn being incompetent?
@@philiproe1661 that is also possible. It is hard to even theory craft a world where gandalf becomes corrupted
The hobbits would have never been taken to isengard
To isenguard, to isenguard.
Only one hobbit was.
Bullcrap. Could have be diff
We only got 're see a hand full of elves, in combined LOTR and Hobbit, Legolas, Galadril, the male in LOTR who dies at helms deep. Elrond. Then really only Thrandrul and the She elve who gets killed, who wants Killi over Legolas es little woody prick...
Why couldn't they have just, staged a little battle before the amazing of darkbess, and have the eagles fly them, right to the mouthpipe of my doom....
In some of Tolkien's material, it's mentioned Saruman realized, for a time, just what he'd gotten himself into when he threw his lot in with Sauron and intended to ask Gandalf to rejoin them. However, Gandalf escaped, Saruman was humiliated, and any thought of reconsidering his position disappeared.
Well I suppose he still sought the ring for himself
God i miss Christopher Lee
Me too, he will always be a legend! May he rest in peace.
Hasan Wilson I do too man. He will always be one of my favorite actors of all time. He will be missed. :(
GOD: I needed him for the next song of creation.....you won't be disappointed.
For real though. He was such a great human being with lots of stories and wisdom. And I honestly feel he was probably the best actor this world has given us if not then one of. You live forever in your portrayals of great and awesome characters, especially the evil ones MUUUHAHAHAHAHAHA
You beat me to it!
Me too, he did a really great job taking the role of Saurman. This is the one film role from Christopher Lee that we shall not forget as the LOTR fans.
The tragedy of this alternative ending is that due to the extended length of the adventure, Bag End got auctioned off long before Bilbo returned to the Shire.
damn
Veteran compensation in the Shire is atrocious. Just look at old man Bilbo. He lost his hobbit hole and can't even afford to have five full meals a day. Most folk don't even know the sacrifices their heroes endured to secure peace, freedom, and justice for their new empire.
@@ED11169 they rest in their armchairs eating pie because others eat month old waybread near a volcano
That's fine. Bilbo at that point had amassed enough wealth to buy it back 10 times over, or even start over on a new plot and build an underground mansion; he'd definitely get excavation halp from the dwarves for everything he did for their people.
And I bet it went to those pesky Sackville Baggins'
Meanwhile, Frodo becomes super bored living in the Shire.
Not the ending in the books. Saruman doesn't die at his lair but escapes to the Shire along with Wormtongue. They take over the Shire while the Frodo and Sam are away completing their journey. The returning hobbits have to re-establish order in the Shire through a violent battle. It's a very dramatic ending unlike the Movie that has the heroes simply returning home in a namby-pamby way.
Jerry Peach true, but this video isn’t canon, which makes UNLebanon’s comment all the more likely in this scenario.
Pippin and merry become alcoholics
And Bilbo dies because he would never escape with the ring in Gollum's cave
@@TheTheode Now, now. There is more to Merry and Pippin than their love of drink. They are also lovers of pipe weed!
There's just one massive problem with this timeline.
Boromir(Sean Bean): Wait, I'm still alive?
Berserk Knight
At least he is until Middle Earth became Westeros.
Hopefully the easterlings or haradrim can fix this plot hole.
No he'd die from a heart attack due to the excitement of hearing the story of Bilbo.
@KyodaiKen1979 He would eventually. When Boromir died in Aragorn's arms, he said he would've followed him. Boromir wasn't as stubborn and reluctant to give up power as his father.
There MUST be a plot where Boromir dies. Name ONE movie or even a show where Sean Bean's character doesn't die. I'll check back with you in a few years. Time enough for Sean Bean to finally accept such a role in an upcoming production in the near future, and ultimately break his streak of always dying.
"And maybe that's the moral of the story: we must always remain true to out friends."
Hm, okay. Let's try this theory in the other direction. *clicks on "What if Gandalf Joined Saruman", because they are friends*
Three way cosmic war between Eru, Melkor and the fallen maiar alliance.
They weren't really friends though right? They barely saw each other in the thousand years they were in middle earth.
They would kill each other fighting over the ring
It's a good story, I'll give it that. The only downside is that when Bilbo finally returned to the Shire all his stuff would be long gone and the Sackville-Baggins would be living in Bag End.
@DaM0ful It would be like "u see that huge land starting around the Bree and ending somewhere close to Fornost and Grey Havens? I buy it, good deal, isnt it? xD "
He'd be at them with a broom like the thieving rats they are! Doesn't he also comment at one point that smaug is a lot like a Sackville-Baggins
True dat
Well, he could get his stuff back by pleading with the Shire's Mayor and he pretty much would have a very strong case - and powerful friends to do so in this timeline.
He would also feel tempted to go to the mountains again,and would likely travel alongside young Frodo and show this boy the wonders of the world, now safer to adventure around without the Dark Lord Sauron in it.
true; but there are worse losses that the world might sustain.
That is a one very unexpected journey for Bilbo
Na that is two very unexpected journey for Bilbo
Saruman was originally a Maia whose weaknesses was power and jealousy. His desire to be all-knowing led him to his eventual corruption, yet his lust for power also led him to betray his friends and eventually betray Sauron to further his own interests. Saruman was also jealous of Gandalf (at least from the books it seemed that way). Great video on a great character. Christopher Lee nailed Saruman even though Peter Jackson changed his ending from the books.
He was envious of gandalf due to who his teacher was i believe.
Mikael Farris I like the films ending better, it still conveys the important point of how powerless Saruman is and he still dies to Wormtongue.
Who was the teacher of gandalf? Galadriel?
@@gabbalajadia9627 Manwe, Gandalf in his Maia form is arguably superior to Galadriel.
@@zdhim2714Manwe, got it. Thanks fam.
Saruman: It is so difficult to fight Sauron, that it is impossible.
Gandalf: Dude, you just made it so, if you didnt join him, we would beat him with ease.
"Dude stop swapping teams"
Well technically at the time when Saruman actually said that Sauron would have been far more powerful already
He only said after a long time of having been gaslighted and brainwashed by Sauron’s corruption.
@@miles1034 "Sorry Gandalf, team autobalance thrown me onto Sauron's side"
The ending off this should be "as they are upon the ship that leaves mithlond. Saruman would hug Gandalf and say. "We did this together my friend. My dear Olorin. We can finally go home. And rest." Gandalf stares back at him and would say"i could not have done this without you. Curumo the wise" they then leave mithlond and set a course for valinor you can hear the laughter of Gandalf and Saruman as they change their forms back to what they looked like before they left Valinor. And they came back as best friend. As they reenter valinor as Olorin and Curumo. Once again
The End
There and back again by bilbo baggins."
RIP Count Saruman 102 BBY - 3019 TA
Does BBY mean something in Lord of the Rings? I'm a little more familiar with Star Wars and it's a thing there.
Yea it is a SW joke as (according to my research) Count Dooku was born in 102 BBY
Ah. That's a good one lol
@Paul A. Wrong. Count Dooku is the Saruman of LOTR. The prequels were made 50 years after LOTR
@@bob5510 No. It's what most Star Wars Lore fans use to measure the timeline of the Star Wars universe (both in Legends and Canon because there is no concrete way of how time is measured in the SWs Universe). BBY means "Before The Battle of Yavin" and the other being ABY "After The Battle of Yavin".
Alternate title: Fellowship of the Ring Dream Team
Yeah, no kidding, the only person I’d add would be Obi-Wan, because then Christoper lee gets to be a happy, if rather imposing best friend forever with his buddies Gandalf and obi-wan. It’s all he ever wanted :)
@@The_Murder_Party why not Qui-Gon Jinn? He was Saruman’s favourite padawan? ;)
@@Th0ughtf0rce sure! though he wasn't invited. like obi was :)
Well if it was such i would hv the dark lord himself on the team.
This is a theory that has really interested me for a long time. And I think Saruman being good would have really changed The War of The Ring quite a bit, and would have made The Fellowships journey to Mordor a lot easier, obviously lol. :)
I wouldn't agree more about this Theory. This has been going on in my head whenever I often watch LOTR and the Hobbit film series.
@ Luke Skywalker the 2nd That last remark of you says it all , and it's why Saruman was truly meant to betray them, as he was also meant to try to doublecross Sauron, because above all else he wanted the One Ring for himself.
@@Taiko206 That's very true. :)
Sauruman also sent the other two wizards far away, so he he would not have to deal with them. Imagine if the other Istaris were involved?
I dont think it would change a lot, if Saruman had stayed good, he would be kinda Helpful at defending Minas Tirith and they would not have lost any warriors at helmst deep (depending on if sauron would have attacked helms deep himself) but the key plan getting frodo and sam to mount doom and destroying the ring without sauron noticing would be the same wether or not saruman was good.
Always remain true to your friends...
...unless there's a chance you can get your hands on an awesome magic ring and conquer the civilized world...
Nope conquering a planet is so boring.
Darth Nihilus Tony machavelli Is it... Ask Sharu-kin (sargon of akkad), assyrians, persians, Alexander the great, Roman Cesars, Mongol khans etc. Or let us ask what do the folk in NWO think.
Remaining true to your friends would only work if these so called friends wasn't groomed by fate, circumstance and dark speech.
@@ReasonAboveEverything Hulk Hogan & Razor Ramon don't share secrets
Alleged awesome magical ring. Lets be honest there is a lot of Hype about the One Ring... but it didn't exactly do any favors to the people wielding it. Other than keeping Sarumon alive after his death. It kind of failed to control the races of Middle earth, he got a super big ego and got taken down by a single sword swipe and so on.
I miss Christopher Lee sometimes.
May he find rest.
OMGoodness is he dead??
@@mikeokeeffe4692 Yes (seriously a simple google search would of been way faster than asking on youtube lol)
12:15 not sure that Bilbo wouldn't have sailed west eventually as in the book even Sam sails west (as mentioned in the appendices) and he'd only carried the ring for a short while.
I imagine he would sail west but not straight away. Probably around the time he leaves the shire in the cannon story once Frodo is all grown up.
"Smoke rises from the mountain of doom the hour grows late and gandalf the grey rides to isenguard seeking my counsel"
*after seeing him defend Galadriel*
Holy shit yeah, I wish he had stayed good.
Me too ...
Saruman is awesome ! 😊
"Are you in need of assistance my lady?"
Few problems that could complicate the story from just being "super easy mode Lord of the Rings".
1. If Gandalf was with Bilbo and the dwarfs as they went through the forest, they likely would have gotten through without running into the elves or spiders. They were actually way closer to the exit than they thought when they desperately left the path to hunt a deer, and Gandalf likely would have kept them on track. That means the elf-king would have no reason to be heading towards Lake Town in force in pursuit of the dwarves, putting him at least several days behind the original timeline if he still sent aid after Smaug's defeat, and assuming that aid was still his full fighting force. This could result in the elf army being too late for the Battle of Five Armies and the resistance against the orcs being much, much weaker. Erebor and Lake Town, in all likelihood, get overrun with maybe Bilbo and Gandalf escaping.
2. Theodin's grandfather was, by all accounts, not a good king. Part of the journey would be going to Gondor and convincing his son to go lead the people where his father wouldn't.
3. Without the last stand of the free people distracting him, Sauron would have no reason to empty his land of orcs, meaning the White Council would have an army to contend with on top of the Nazgul. In the books he was still sending small fractions of his armies out to test Gondor's strength, reserving most orcs in Mordor.
is Tom Bombadil the only being in Middle Earth completely 100% immune to the corrupting temptation of the One Ring?
Yes.
I would hope the upcoming television program would present Bombadil in that light. He's a creature of paradox not straight storytelling and that's important.
Shelob also had no interest or desire in the ring.
"Little she knew of or cared for towers, or rings, or anything devised by mind or hand," The Two Towers. "Shelobs Lair" page 333
Thomas Walsh That indicates to me her feral and bestial nature rather than any kind of immunity. The same way Farmer Maggot's dog probably felt no temptation to take the ring when Frodo stayed with him.
@Neurotica Combustion Ungoliant is primordial evil/darkness from before the music of creation. So It would make sense that Shelob her daughter would be 100% immune to/not interested in the one ring
If Sauron noticed the fellowship entering his domain like the narrator says then I believe he wont only sent the nine to stop them but Mordor's entire army
that means hordes of orcs, uruk-hai, trolls of any kind, felbeast and other monsters briefly mentioned in the book such as werewolves etc
So that begs the question would the fellowship survive such an onslaught or they'll be eventually overwhelmed and destroyed one by one
Didn't saruman create the uruk-hai? That said I agree with you a army would be sent.
@@Xlen-omega Well basically no the "Uruk hai" existed long before
They were known as "Black Uruks"
Saruman's Uruk hai were better though more closer to humans in appearance
Even so after Saruman's demise many remnants of his Uruk hai went to Mordor and joined Sauron's army
@@jackalhead7433 oh ok thanks I didn't know that.
I think I have found a flaw in your theory. If Thrain had still been alive, and joined with his sons company, then they would not have sought a 15th member. Bilbo was chosen to accompany the Dwarves to offset the 'unlucky' number 13. If Thrain had been there, they already would have their 14th member and not asked Gandalf to find another one.
(I know this is an old comment, but) maybe Thrain was too old to partake? Thrain would need healing and unable to join the fight at the mountain
Alexis S yeah thrain was fucked at that point, no way he woulda been able to go on some epic quest to retake their home
But Gangalf recognized that Bilbo would be useful and could have insisted he come along anyway.
Master Thief Bilbo always has a use.
Just as Bob Smith says sorry on the premonition of Gandalf having seen, or dreamed of the great things bilbo might accomplish would have brought him anyway. Plus having a thief always makes sneaking into a mountain fortress easier.
Even if everything had remained the same up until the start of The Fellowship of the Ring, Saruman remaining good and overcoming the temptations of the One Ring and Sauron, things would have been far easier for the Fellowship. Because Gandalf wouldn't have been imprisoned by Saruman, he would have met Aragorn and the Hobbits at Bree. Frodo may have not been stabbed at Weathertop with both Aragorn and Gandalf there.
They wouldn't need to contend with the Uruk-Hai or the threat of Saruman's spells and forces, even possibly not needing to go through Moria as they could just have taken the Gap of Rohan. Even if they needed to continue through Moria Boromir would have likely lived, and Saruman might have left his tower to continue Gandalf's work until his resurrection as a White Wizard.
Boromir might not have tried to take the Ring from Frodo due to Saruman's commanding voice. The Battle of Helms Deep and all the ill that had befallen Rohan would have likely not happened leaving them at full strength to aid Gondor. Gandalf and Saruman would have likely rallied the Ents and possibly the Dwarves as Frodo and Sam sneaked into Mordor.
Gollum's greed would have still been the undoing of the One Ring, trying to take it from Frodo in the Crack of Doom and falling with his precious to his doom. With the One Ring's destruction, the War of the Ring and the Third Age would come to an early close, with less loss of life and hardship. The Shire wouldn't have been scorched, Gondor and Rohan would have not suffered as much and the Fourth age would have been an even more prosperous time for Mankind as the Elves started to take leave of Middle Earth along with Gandalf and Saruman.
Frodo might not have left until much later since he wouldn't have had as much of a toll taken on him as in the canon timeline, however I could see him leaving with Sam who after a long life would continue to follow his friend as was his family's duty to the Bagins. In the end Saruman remaining loyal to his friends would have worked out better for nearly everyone including Saruman and probably Grima Wormtongue.
If all that did happen, as much as i wouldve liked saruman to stay good. We wouldn't have the masterpiece we now call the lord of the rings. It just wouldn't be the same, wouldn't make for as good of a story.
Sarumon wouldnt of left his tower! The place where isengard was stationed was à very good strategic point to counter attacks saurons forces! Leaving it unguarded would of been giving sauron a foothold deep into middle-earth.
If saruman stayed good then Gandalf would've never resurrected, he only resurrected to replace Saruman.
Even theodred. Or king theoden's son would have been alive.
Alternatively, instead of taking the Gap of Rohan, they could take the Pass at Caradhras which would not have been affected by Saruman’s weather-controlling spell against the Fellowship
Your videos are both equally entertaining and informative. This is as close to perfect from any TH-camr out there speaking about Tolkien's work. I'd actually love to know if there's enough info on Eru Illuvatar, the origins of The One to make a video, or maybe enough info on he interactions between the Valar, namely Manwe, and Eru? Excellent channel and please keep the videos coming!
Eru Illuvatar is literally the Judeo-Christian god Yahve, as a devout catholic the professor would not dare to conjure up an origin story for him.
You're wrong on a couple of counts, but I'll just settle for saying that Tolkien wasn't Catholic, he was Anglican.
@@metalboy5150 Pretty sure Tolkein was Catholic. CS Lewis was Anglican tho.
It's rather obvious having the most powerful deity on the side of good would have greatly sped up the story. Afterall, he's basically the only one of the wizards who could turn a battle around by simply talking, which technically doesn't violate his god given handicap to never straight up overpower the enemy. If he could deal with the Witch King of Angmar without even leaving Orthanc, imagine what he could do to lesser creatures in person.
I believe only Gandalf the White was completely immune to Saruman's voice, as he's essentially Saruman as he should have been.
Correct.
the astari were angelic figures but there is still a pantheon of people with more power than Saruman, (there is also the fact that Souron even with his powers divided was stronger than Saruman and possibly the wizards all put together).
@@henrypaleveda7760
Of course there are more powerful beings, but I was really only referring to those present...
Not really counting Sauron given he is weakened and mostly bound to his tower.
@@henrypaleveda7760 There likely weren't, with the exception of Sauron, the rule is roughly that you have to be at most on par with those you are facing. So if Gandalf is in the Shire he does what are basically party tricks with fireworks. And when he is Moria fighting a Balrog he creates a force field and falls thousands of feet cuts down the creature three times his size and comes back from the dead. They scale.
Reminder: Valar and Maiar are not deities. They're angelic beings.
If Thrain is alive and well, then it's far from certain that Bilbo would the expedition to Erebor. A big part of the reason for searching out another party member was to avoid unlucky number 13.
Hey, this was really interesting! There are a lot of good points, but also some problems:
Firstly, the Quest for Erebor might have turned better, because Thráin, who had just been jailed for a very long time and dispossessed of his ring (which would probably give him more humility) would be in command and because Gandalf and his advices would be there. Those factors would probably help to avoid the crisis with the Men of Laketown, and there would probably be at least some survivors in the Dwarven royalty after the battle. There also probably would't be any problem with Thranduil's Elves.
Now, the White Council almost certainly wouldn't go with Bilbo in its entierty, for the same reasons they didn't in the actual book. They have realms to manage, would be more easily spotted by the Enemy due to the tremendous stregth of their combined power, etc. A good Saruman, though, might very well take the journey, as Orthanc was simply his home. A council similar to the one that took place in Rivendell during LOTR would probably be called in Isengard, and a Fellowship would be formed by Gandalf, Bilbo, Saruman and members of other realms. Amongst them, Elrond would probably send his sons, and Erebor would most likely send someone out of gratitude. As most of the "true" Fellowship was royalty, I believe Thorin, if Thráin survived (Thorin was already relatively old, though), or Fíli or Kíli or both would probably be the chosen one(s)! Or maybe Balin, because of his amity with our Hobbit? Hey, maybe Denethor's father himself (Ecthelion) could be a member too, as his own father was still the Steward! And Legolas could come in this timeline just as he did in the canon one.
Finally, I'd say the Nazgûl, even in Mordor, wouldn't even be the shadow of a match for the full White Council. Hell, Sauron himself wouldn't be if it wasn't for the limitations given to the Wizards by the Valar! Moreover, he had less time to recover his strenght in this timeline. Against only Saruman, Gandalf and a bunch of skilled fighters, they would still most probably lose, but I think they could give them a good challenge. That being said, I also think you overestimate the strenght of the Ring's hold over Bilbo: at this point, he had owned it for a time far shorter than even Frodo had and, as I already said, Sauron would be weaker. And the journey would have been easier with a Fellowhip that powerful, and undivided. With all that, and the voice of Saruman as an extra, I think Bilbo could throw the Ring himself.
The only setback for the Free Peoples I can see with this timeline is that no one would deal with Durin's Bane. Well, maybe, maybe with Sauron out of the picture the Valar could allow the Istari to unleash their full power against him as he would after all be the last notable servant of Morgoth in Middle-earth and isn't some kind of dark lord that could inspire a tentation of power, and the Balrog would most certainly lose against them as the weakened Gandalf alone actually met success at the job, but I don't know if the Wizards themselves would be overjoyed with the perspective.
That and the fact that the return of the King might prove more difficult as Aragorn wouldn't come providencially in times of need. On the other hand, though, he could still work as Thorongil for a time against Harad, Rhûn and Umbar(let's remember Ecthelion was quite fond of him), and maybe focus on rebuilding Arnor first before being accepted as king in Gondor, so who knows?
EDIT: Another thing is that I don't think Bilbo would necessarily be part of the trip. As he and Frodo didn't keep it for years, Hobbits hadn't yet made the proof of their resilience against the Ring, so, while Gandalf probably wouldn't want to carry it to Isengard himself in fear of tentation, plus the fact that a seat at the council as the Ringfounder wouldn't be out of place, he doesn't really have a reason to bring Bilbo further with him, even though he likes Hobbits. Especially as he likes them (and Bilbo in particular), actually! That being said, Bilbo could of course propose himself as his nephew did!
What if, during the council at Elrond’s house when Frodo was chosen to carry the One Ring. Frodo, either Declined, or simply was not chosen by the council. I think this is a particularly interesting “what if” considering that Gandalf knew that Frodo was ideal as a ring bearer, but was reluctant to place such a heavy burden on him. Perhaps Sam, Merry or Pippin would have carried the ring. Although I feel that this would have just resulted in a similar story as LOTR . perhaps Elrond, Gimley, or Legolas and Boromir would have held the ring in an attempt to destroy it at Mount Doom. I think the possibilities are endless.
There's no chance Frodo would decline. Maybe not be chosen? But he'd likely run with the ring at that point.
It's not something you just give away
What if Tom bombadil took the ring to mordor?
Everyone complains about it not being possible, but this is a what if, so shoo.
So what would happen if Sauron reclaimed Middle Earth? Will Valinor be invaded again and a second war of wrath would occur? Will the Noldor reclaim the lands lost?
One observation: I believe you meant 2941 - 2942 of the Third age rather than 3941 - 3942. Great video as always! It was hard to choose from choices in the poll you put up and I wish you could do them all! Keep it up!
do more of these theories. do R+L= Aragorn
Lol that’s hilarious!
R+L?
@@henrypaleveda7760 it's a reference to a Game of Thrones theory of the same name
I'm surprised Preston hasn't come up with a theory on what aragorn's tax policy is
@@MenoftheWest What if after the Discord caused by Melkor in the Music of creation, Melkor changed his ways and remained loyal to Eru and all the other Valar became evil and attempted to take the Imperishable Flame?
This video is definitely amongst the best things I've ever watched before!😍
Thank you so much for this beautiful scenario and your hard work! ♥️💪🏻🍀
ditto!
It is, but Gandalf never would have touched the ring. It would have been difficult for him to snatch it from Bilbo, wouldn't it have been? Though, maybe if it was just a second.
Cristopher Lee
You shall never be forgotten for your badass acting and life.
Alas, badass becomes legend. Legend becomes myth. And all myths change and fade.
Looking forward to the next one!
I've always wondered what would have happened if Sauron hadn't thrown his chance of redemption away with the ring making scheme. Both he and Gollum, longest bearers of the one ring, begin their possession of it with the murder of a friend. You might even push to say best friend, depending on how you read the text for each.
In any case - what would have happened if Sauron had "seen the light" while working as Annatar and truly sought an alliance with Celebrimbor and the elves? Where would they have led Middle Earth with a Sauron working to redeem himself, openly or otherwise, I wonder.
Especially factoring in whether or not you think the one ring would be present in this narrative, and what effects it would have on all involved. Could Sauron have done it, or like Gollum, would his own corruption and shadow catch up with him no matter how far he tried to outrun it?
Great question! Great scenario and execution!
As you said, there is no wrong answer, but here are my own tweaks:
1/I sure hope Gandalf doesn't need to take the Ring from Bilbo by force, but manages to persuade him, or if he doesn't, then asks for another bearer (as refusal would be a sign that Bilbo IS being influenced/corrupted rather fast).
2/I also doubt too many members of White Council joining the Fellowship, as the whole idea was secrecy and they're very high profile, and as most of them are needed elsewhere to organize the various people of Middle Earth.
3/Assuming that Gandalf is present when that decision is taken, they would probably have avoided Cirith Ungol (see his reaction when Faramir lets him know the path Gollum is leading Frodo and Sam on [original timeline]).
4/Finally, with the presence of Gandalf, Gollum might have resorted to giving incomplete (no mention of the Ring) intelligence about the Fellowship to Sauron's informants, hoping to get his hands on the One this way.
5/Though most of the way would have been easier in this timeline, the path from the choosen entery point into Morodor to Orodruin would have been harsher, as stealth and water supply become primary factors (and with a larger, hevier-footed group...). That's where Saroumane, as a real ally of both the Council and Rohan, organizes with Gondor enough turmoil to get Sauron's gaze and attention out of Mordor while the company progresses.
6/Faramir is too young, but maybe a wise and gifted ranger gets "recruited" on the threshold of Mordor, wich helps make (5) work.
Keep up the good work!
I like your alternate versions of the tale, but this one was particularly good! Keep up the great work, Yoystan!
the bagpipe part of the soundrack made me cry, bagpipes always do that to me. love this content though! not just the theories and breakdowns, but the featured art
This is such a good what if scenario!
I just recorded a video on this topic as a Patreon benefit. I luckily hadn’t seen yours before so it was interesting to be able to watch this after recording to see where we agree and where we differ. Stay tuned!
Oh that is awesome man! I know your patrons will love it!
@@MenoftheWest well not strictly patrons only, but one of my support levels entitles the patron to pick a video topic, so the video will be public when it launches. :)
The Fellowship likely would have had a far easier time making it to Rivendell.
Horcroux
Interesting
You can see why JRR took the white council out of the picture and having Saruman turn bad
As the forces of Mordor would be less developed at this time, perhaps the wizards/elves/dwarves could have arranged for the armies of men/elves/dwarves to march on the black gates at the same time as the white council and Bilbo took their route
Surely Sauron would have recognised the power coming into his lands and moved the 12 Nazgul (any any other nefarious forces) to counter them while they were in the marshes - only a direct threat coming through the gates and into his lands might have forced him to split his more limited forces
But if he sensed the ring, wouldn't he go all out to prevent the plans regarding Mount Doom ?
Very cool exercise
Doing this increases your appreciation of the genius of Tolkein - everything had a point
12 Nazgul? Shouldn't they be just 9?
Yes.
Mighty M
Heh, my bad
Always have problems with multiples of 3
It was indeed 9 Nazgul
Archzenom
Busted !
Yep, 9 Nazgul
paul elliott Ok. Just wondering here.
There's only one place to hear a wizard story and have a quick pint ; that place can only be the GREEN DRAGON 👍🏻 great video
We all know the real tragedy would have been that "They're taking the Hobbits to Isengard!" would never have been a thing.
"They're taking the Hobbits to Isengard," said Legolas in a calm and happy voice, as that is where the forces of the Free Folk had gathered for their final assault on Mordor under the guidance and leadership of White Council of which is led by Sauraman the White.
Still could happen.
They can still take the hobbits to Isengard. Perhaps Saruman finds it too inconvenient to travel to Elrond’s council, just like how Galadriel stays put. The Fellowship would still stop by Isengard to say hello to Saruman and maybe get some sage-like wisdom from him. They can use Saruman’s palantir at Orthanc to help them plan out their path.
Its interesting. Saruman was an Maia. But he and Gandalf weren't sent in angelic form but rather in the body's of old men.
Saruman turning to greed and power, was so very human of him. Gandalf was known as the wisest of all maia I believe, so even trapped in a human body for a great deal of time, his intentions stayed noble.
Fabled Fantasy Not that Gandalf was the wisest. That actually goes to Saruman. However, Gandalf was the most humble. He didn’t think himself worthy to become one of the Istari & he was afraid. I also believe it has something to do with the particular Valar that each of them served. It determined a bit of their temperament. Radagast served a nature Valar therefore he was obsessed with the natural world to the point that he failed the commission of the Wizards to help guide the races of Middle Earth against Sauron. I believe, & this is where my memory fails me, that Saruman served a Valar of wisdom therefore his lust for knowledge which turned into a lust for power. I cannot remember the particulars of the Valar that Gandalf served but I believe it had an effect on the kind of person that he was.
@@Tenacious.Ignatius Gandalf served the wife of Mandos I think. The one that kept crying.
You're thinking of Nienna the Valië, sister of Mandos (whose real name is Námo) rather than wife. The wife of Lord Námo is Vairë, she who decorated the Halls of Mandos with many tapestries depicting the world's history. Gandalf, who was also known as the Maia named Olórin, worked for a few different Valar: Nienna, Lord Irmo of the Gardens of Lórien, and the Elder King Manwë, brother of Melkor.
@@Tenacious.Ignatius Gandalf was the wisest, it's stated in the Silmarioion
LUKA Thank you got the response. I’ve still yet to read the Silmarilion. Though my memory could be tainted by the movies & this not actually be in the LOTR books Gandalf says that Saruman is the wisest of them which is what I was basing it off of. But that can be credited again to Galdalf’s humility
Gandalf: "I fear that the one ring has resurfaced!"
Saruman: "How can you be sure about that? May I see that ring for myself, for a quick identify-spell, please?"
Gandalf: "Frodo, give him the ring!"
Froddo: "Here you are!"
Saruman grabs the ring, fails his saving throw and is utterly corrupted to evil.
Saruman kills off Frodo and Gandalf by beating the crap out of them with his staff and lives unhappily ever after.
End of the story.
What if the ring was destroyed after the battle of the last alliance
Paul A. The wizards came after the Last Alliance to stave off the influence of Sauron. If Isildur had heeded Cirdan and Elrond and destroyed the ring right after the battle the wizards would have never left Valinor to go to Middle Earth.
+Paul A. The Istari came around the year 1000 of the Third Age.
Then the whole saga really ends with the end of the Second Age.... Isildur being King in the North and High King, Anarion's eldest son being King in Gondor. No Sauron, no Nazgul in the third age, and a time of peace, prosperity and progress for the Kingdoms of Men (BTW-- Arnor would not have been split into three Kingdoms and then fallen piece by piece, since the Witchking never was and Angmar didn't come about without him....). Still would have been a problem with Dragons here and there, but Smaug would have been an isolated threat, not a potential weapon for Sauron to use against all the North. The Dwarves would still have had a major problem in Moria sooner or later when they ran into the Balrog-- either Moria is just plain lost never to be recovered... or, without the threat of Angmar, maybe Glorfindel would feel like killing another Balrog before leaving Middle Earth.... I suppose the Professor could have written a great set of books about the battles to end the Second Age, instead of his wonderful trilogy about the end of the Third Age that we all know and love.
would love that Glorfindel v. Balrog!
@@mglenn7092 I think The remaining noble Noldor elves, like Glorfindel and Galadriel, would have teamed up and made short work of a single balrog.
Given that Bilbo gave up the ring without knowing what it really was after having it for as long as he did, I think he'd be able to destroy it without help from Gollum right after he got it.
Not necessarily.
The hold the ring has over its bearer is stronger the closer you are to Mount Doom, or so i heard
I'm really intrigued by this hypothetical timeline!
Just out of curiosity, would you envision the entire White Council (like Radagast, Cirdan, Glorfindel and even the Blue Wizards) joining the Fellowship with Bilbo? Or just the more prominent players like Saruman, Gandalf, Galadriel and Elrond? Either way, they would be the most OP Fellowship in existence lol
I really liked this but, I'd make two changes.
- I think the nine would get dunked on by the wise. I always imagined a nazgul < balrog and most the wise are on the balrog level of strength. Especially, if they had the elves with them and not just the wizards. They also might be able to get a Boromir in his prime as well and I'd imagine that would be a sight to see as he was described as mighty. Although, I might be wrong on the dates for that one he might be too young/not alive yet.
-I'd agree with you on it being a faster overall clear. However, I think that Sauron wouldn't be able to recreate himself fast enough/establish himself fast enough to provide a real defense against the wise/wage war on gondor. So it's likely they could just march in with some kind of Gondorian or Rohirric elite squad to body guard the wise.
But, I haven't really studied lotr in close to a decade so I could be wrong. Great video man!
I have a theory I'd like to suggest.
What would happen if all the races of men, men of the West, easterlings, the southrons, the wildmen, and the mercenary pirates joined forces against sauron.
Also, the men of the mountain were not summoned, the final battle was all the living forces of men vs the forces of sauron
It really depends what would happen with the one ring, that is the point of the story but even so although it would be close I still think Sauron would win
why does the possibility of Bilbo and Glorfindel traveling together along with the rest of the white council sound so awesome
also; I can entertain the idea of Bilbo being inducted into the white council when they meet at Orthanc
Gandalf: I am Saruman. Or rather Saruman as he should have been.
-there you go.-
Well, interesting theory.
The weaknesses I see with it is:
1. The white councl would never have gotten so far as you say before being checked. They would have been caught before they ever reached Minas Morgul. And then the hosts of Mordor, and the nine would all stand between them and Orodruin.
2. Gollum would not have been able to catch up and find them with the ring, so the sollution with his intervention destroying the ring is impossible.
3. Some things that you include in this alternative timeline would probably not have happened either if Saruman had remained true. Such as the Quest for Erebor, Battle of Five armies etc. The white council would not have thought old Smaug a priority if they knew that they were hot on the rings trail. Which would have meant that they would not have found the Ring because Bilbo would have stayed at home and never gotten lost from the dwarves.
Thus, in classic Tolkien manner, Saruman was MEANT to go evil, because Bilbo was MEANT to find the Ring, and that he would not have if Saruman had stayed true...
Gollum was surprisingly integral in destroying the ring. Even Sauron could not destroy the ring of his own will.
Sauron didn't HAVE free will. He was made that way, and why would a sociopath EVER think about being sane?
Wasn't Pippin looking into the Palantir that was cast out of Orthanc by Wormtongue what convinced Sauron that he had run out of time and had no choice but to march forth to war immediately and what distracted him by forcing him to focus his eye abroad? I seem to recall it having been said somewhere in the Two Towers that had Sauron focused on the borders of Mordor, there would be no hope of ever infiltrating it to destroy the one ring. Without this chance encounter through the Palantir (along with the chain of events that transpired at and after Argonath), without Sauron thinking Saruman may double crossed him and possibly even seized the One Ring, would he have acted so rashly? Would he have marched to war focusing his eye abroad if he did not perceive an immediate threat of the ring being turned against him? Or would he have acted more cautiously, secured the borders of his realm, and ultimately detected and defeated any attempt to infiltrate it...unless the One Ring were actually wielded against him?
One of the great accomplishments of the Lord of the Rings is how perfectly everything fits together, how things seemingly inconsequential or even evil, like the treachery of Saruman, were all essential to the completion of the quest. It was an impossible quest that could not have been accomplished in any other way than precisely in the manner that it was, any change for good or ill would have doomed the quest, as though Illuvatar himself was conducting the Symphony of the Age.
Could Gollum be saved? Also what if he was?
I would enjoy a what-if on this as well :)
Smeagol was already a pretty bad person as it was. Remember, he murdered his cousin in cold blood before even touching the ring.
My LOTR knowledge is rusty but what with the One Ring being magic, did it specifically have to be touched to affect people?
True, but how much of that was from the influence of the ring? It is trixy and gets inside your head, after all. It nearly drove Boromir to steal the ring from Frodo and he never even had to touch it.
@@josiaharaki7310 to your point it took almost nothing to drive Smeagol to kill his cousin. It took a little bit longer for Boromir and the fact that Bilbo could give up the ring at all shows just how resilient hobbits could be if they chose to (though Bilbo had his moments of relapse). Bilbo even spared Gollum something that Smeagol did not do on his first encounter with the ring. We do need a 'what if' on Smeagol.
You forgot that the company of Thorin would have potentially used the Old Forest Road in this scenario as the Necromancer had been vanquished
If Saruman would have been good, they could have won faster.
Man, this is the second time it's like your video title has read my mind. I've been wondering about this for years.
I love the bonus feature in ROTK where peter is talking to Christopher Lee about the noise Saruman makes when wormtongue stabs him in the back. Just the epic ness of Christopher Lee says oh I know the noise a man makes when he is stabbed in the back. Man just thinking about a young Christopher Lee sneaking around Nazi occupied territory killing Nazis is incredible.
Darth Star Killer lee didn’t go
To war he never did even tho he is the only lotr hobbit actor to ever meet Tolkien in person
Benjamin Rowley pretty widely known he was an agent of the British secret device basically. Mi6 I think. Could be wrong on the name though
@@benjaminrowley He went into two wars.
Unbelievably Trash As a volunteer in the finnish winter war.
@@kallenordvall Indeed.
As far as this theory goes, I enjoy and love this one the most. Saruman, with all his knowledge, could have been the great wizard he was always meant to be, had he not given into to jealousy of Gandalf and lust for power. Had he stayed true, I feel it very well could have gone along these lines.
Gawd I love this channel
A great video of an interesting theory. So much would've change if some key figures had not died (Thorin Oakenshield) or turned Evil (Saruman). Such theories are very thought-provoking and provide many new perspectives from which to look at our favourite stories, the choices the character could've made,the events that could've happened at a different time,under different circumstances or
even not come to pass at all. Also I have an idea for a theory. What if the Entwives had been found during the Third Age (after the War of the Ring) or some time during the Fourth Age ? Perhaps a theory as to where they could've gone. Would they be able to return and reunite with the Ents ? If so, how much of an impact could it have made on both the forests and Middle-earth as a whole ?
What if after the Discord caused by Melkor in the Music of creation, Melkor changed his ways and remained loyal to Eru and all the other Valar became evil and attempted to take the Imperishable Flame?
The anticipation is palpable.
Can't wait to inject this theory into my LOTR day dreams man!
This was the original campaign before Saruman's player decided he was sick of being railroaded, so the DM had to make some changes to the plot.
"They kinda forgot about Saruman"
Good video I love the way you tell the story and the graphics behind it and I enjoyed it, like well deserved, but I believe that this would not happen. Mair spirits send to middle earth (also known as Istari) to guide the free people and help them against Sauron could not fight Sauron (Ilu Iluvatar rule) thus they could not walk straight into Mordor but as in a book, they could make a Fellowship and select the best to be the part of it. They could visit the kings of free people to gather an army to attack Sauron, but they could not go that way with them. They could plan their battles and so on but direct fight no way. They were sent to guide against the Sauron not to fight against him. And the second thing that crossed my mind is that The Wise would definitely beat the Nazguls. Even Gandalf managed it on his own in the first LOTR book (they fled from him, but still). So if Gandalf could make them run away from his power, The Wise would have crushed them.
Good video and theory. Without the very public, well known, and epic victories at Pelargir, Pelennor, and the Black Gate, not to mention his feats as Thorongil, I have a hard time seeing Gondor accept Aragorn as king, no matter how good the claim is. I suspect a victory over Sauron the big enemy under the Stewards would further cement Gondorian opposition to accepting a chieftan from the north (keep in mind Gondor had already rejected a King from the north). Keep up the good videos, just my two cents.
I felt similar. Aragorn seems diminished. Less worthy of the throne. The Steward would seem less likely to happily return it.
My thoughts exactly, the losing war and Aragorn being a big part in saving Gondor was a big deal for why he ended up getting accepted. I have a hard time believing that the Gondorian people would accept him as king if he didnt save them at Pellenor Fields.
In this scenario, I see Aragorn becoming king of a restored Arnor, and maybe at some point in the future, one of his descendants could reunite the two kingdoms.
I can't get enough of your videos! I'm literally looking in my feed every day for your next video! Than you so much for your hard work, dedication, and your inspiration of Tolkien's lore that brings us much wanted entertainment!
Can you do a segment on what happened to the Blue Wizards?
Even though Tolkien says in his Letters that, of the five Istari, Gandalf was the only one who completed his mission, I like to think that Alatar and Pallando at least helped by preventing some of the powers in the East from coming to Sauron's aid.
Well, did Tolkien changed his view of them later in life, particularly speculating that they worked in the East and contributed to Western victories by somehow reducing the number of those who followed Sauron - the Easterners would have had many more troops to join the battle otherwise. I think there was also something about them working with the good people of the East.
"Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion ... and after his first fall to search out his hiding (in which they failed) and to cause [?dissension and disarray] among the dark East ... They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of East ... who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have ... outnumbered the West."
- Last Writings, The Peoples of Middle-earth
They were wirzards of perv. Hence "blue" wizards ...
Just found your channel after going back to my favorite trilogy once again and I gotta say I can't get enough of your videos. Continue the good work my friend
Amazing theory! Keep up the good work!😄👍
First of all, this has been an amazing story, and I especially like how one can even draw a moral from it, as you did in the end.
The only thing I would disagree with is Bilbo's seeming agreeableness along the journey to destroy the one ring.
Frodo's defining quality as the ringbearer was a kind of pure innocence that he managed to keep, even when his naivety was taken from him. He was tempted to use the ring on his journey, yes - but only when he was commanded by the forces of Sauron to do so, or when he found himself in an equivalent danger.
Bilbo, on the other hand, was, and had always been, a trickster. A rulebreaker. Even his journey towards the lonley mountain can be conceptualized as an integration of this shadow side of him, for he didn't become a great warrior, but a thief.
Which is to say that I really think we need a follow-up video to this one, going further in-depth about the possibility of Bilbo Baggins being sent to Mount Doom with the one ring. Because you can bet that Bilbo's "Hold my Beer" attitude would have caused interesting trouble along the way.
Hmmmm, this theory has some plotholes. Indeed the fight would have been lots easier and troubles would have been spared. Frodo won't be stabbed by a morgul blade, Pippin and Merry don't meet the Ents and they won't be awakened at all. The Uruk-hai don't see daylight and Faramir won't marry Eowyn. Gandalf doesn't upgrade to the White and the Balrog in Moria won't be slain, making it still not a safe place for the Dwarves. Also, Tom Bombadil would never be seen, making the aftermath of the LOTR totally differently. The cursed army in the mountains still would remain there and the need for reforging Narsil is gone. The southerlings are a question mark though. Indeed there won't be an exorcism of Theoden and Wormtounge won't be seen. Boromir won't be so cocky and lives. Gimli and Legolas won't be friends for life, making the bond of Elves and Dwarves still troublish. No Helm's Deep. And last but not least: would Sam be courageous enough to ask Rosie Cotton to marry him? Would Frodo marry? No golden tree west of the Misty Mountains. his changes so much and save tons of lives, but makes new bonds undone, so the game isn't totally up. Indeed the story would be shorter and lots of lives are saved, but how will it affect the new generation? It sounds to me that the love will be less that way.
Well for most of your points? The characters don't exist/aren't born yet. Sam, Frodo, Merry, Pippin, Boromir, Theoden, Eomer (Not Faramir), Eowyn are all not born. The ruler of Rohan at the time is Theodan's grandfather, not Theoden. Legolas would probably have remained in the Mirkwood with Thranduil, and Gimli would have been doing dwarf stuff. The Fellowship from the Lord of the Rings books/movies literally would not exist at the time that this takes place. And Tom Bombadil not being seen isn't a huge loss.
Your points that are chronologically impacted: The Southerlings would still be a threat but more of a bandit thing, like Orcs would be after Sauron's defeat. The Easterling invasion of Gondor likely wouldn't have happened. The cursed army would still be there, but such is the lot in life of oathbreakers and traitors. The Balrog probably *would* be defeated but it would be done by more than one member of the White Council, so it's either more even, or one sided much like the quest to return the Ring would be. I wouldn't call no battle of Helm's Deep or Uruk-hai a bad thing. Given that the White Council would probably place Aragorn on the throne of Gondor, the reforging of Narsil would still happen but the desperate need would be gone. It's stated at the time that this alternate timeline takes place he is still being fostered by Elrond's sons, which means he is still rather young even by dunedein standards.
No story.
I think it likely that Arwen would not be given to Aragorn, as he never proved himself a king, and would have had it handed to him at a much younger age; unless he does go, at the time of this story, to fight the Corsairs. Perhaps that would be enough for him to be revealed as the true king, but then would he and arwen even meet one another???
more likely a Dúnedain's daughter would be found for him.
They met in Rivendell, so it's still quite possible that they would meet.
If it has not already been suggested, I feel that a theory video regarding the Blue Wizards would be very intriguing. Great job once again!
WHAT IF FARAMIR HAD GONE TO IMLADRIS and not Captain Sharpe?!?! And I love you for doin this for us. I'm gonna start brewing more coffee at home and see if I can put away some coins for the Company.
Captain Sharpe lol
He already did this
For the Empire well i suspect imma little late then.
Well done! This version saves many lives and much heartache - no Morgul blade for Frodo.
I reckon he would still have this great fear of him. But may sacrafise himself for the forces of good. But would he come back like Gandalf..... Who knows
Well, as far as I remember all the wise knew that the ring had fallen with Isildur. Saruman just claimed that it had been washed into the sea, even though he did not believe it (maybe because he had already found the other things Isildur had on his body, esp. the elendilmir?), so that would be no news to anybody, Gandalf stated in the council of Elrond that the tale of Isildurs fall was known by all the wise. And with the final move against Dol Guldur Saruman was part of the team, BECAUSE he wanted the ring for himself- he wanted Sauron gone. So there would not have been more firepower. Maybe the White Council would have made their move sooner, I give you that. I doubt they would have been able to rescue Thrain, though. When Dol Guldur would have come under attack, prisinoers would have been killed. But Gandalf did not want to wait for Bilbo to come of age because of destiny. He just liked the hobbits and the idea struck him, partly because he wanted to put a bee in Thorins bonnet, because that dwarf was too proud by half. He just picked Bilbo by chance. (Chance as we call it in Middle Earth. Of course it was Eru). He could have picked any hobbit with a mixture of Took and something more "settled". Yes, he might have helped the dwarves, but if they had been "battleready" they would not have needed Bilbo, would not have taken him. And even if they did, why would they be separated at the high pass before the orcs had remultiplied? In your timeline they would still habe been few because of their wars with the dwarves, so they would not have attacked the party, Bilbo would not have gotten lost, would not have stumbled across the ring (and Gollum) and thus the ring would have stayed in the montains, maybe to have been found by an orc. No doubt Saruman (either never having fallen or having taken up Gandalfs offer to join him again after the fall of Isengard) would have been an immense asset to the Free Peoples of the West. But I doubt it would have taken place so unchanged. More pieces would be on other parts of the board, too.
This video reminds us how much pain and sorrow it could be brought if we don't stay true and faithful to our ideals and friends. We could even become the very thing we hate the most!
I feel like with Gandalf's presence in Mirkwood, talking with Thranduil, and then later at the Lonely Mountain to talk sense into the dwarves, the situation at Erebor would likely have been much less volatile and the Battle of the Five Armies would probably have been much more one sided in favor of the forces of good, and so Thorin, Thrain, Fili and Kili would very plausibly survive.
As for Durin's Bane, well. Khazad-dum might well be lost forever to the Dwarves.
Its a scenario that shows just how much sarumans betrayal really screwed them over.
Thank you for making this. Keep up the great work!
Wait, I'm confused. Are you saying that the expulsion of Sauron from Dol Goldur took place BEFORE the events of The Hobbit, or is that part of the alternate timeline? Because I thought that Thrain was killed in that process. I also thought that in "An Unexpected Journey" Saruman was still on the good side. So at what point exactly in your video do the timelines split? Because it's unclear in any of the canon at what point exactly Saruman turned. Also, if the ring was kept for safe keeping in Isengard, how did Gollum or Bilbo even get it?
I also wondered about a quote from Elrond in An Unexpected Journey, talking about how they had a "hard-won, watchful peace" for 500 years. What exactly had happened 500 years earlier? Was he referring to the expulsion of Sauron that hadn't happened in the movie yet?
Saruman at first opposed attacking Sauron because he knew Sauron's power would draw out the Ring. He later changed his mind when he realized Sauron was using Dol Guldor as a base to look for the Ring. In the alternate timeline, the attack would have happened earlier.
Saruman's Choice: An Alternate Third Age Tale - That would have made an awesome movie.
ITS HERE!!!!
You should do a video like this about the 5 Istari, including the Blue Wizards staying true to their task. Or a video about if the Blue Wizards had stayed in the west.
I await your next video, "What If Saruman Had Stayed Hood?"
Thank you for this interesting video as always. I have some doubts about your theory though.
First, I don´t think the White Council would have gotten into Mordor that easily - Sauron would have noticed their presence much earlier, and would send his Nazgul to hinder them. Note that Gandalf said during the Council of Elrond that within Mordor, Sauron had a much enhanced strength, while the White Council, even the bearers of the Three Rings, would be weakened. That´s why a powerful Elf-Lord like Glorfindel was not preferred by Gandalf over Pippin. Gandalf knew that absolute stealth would be the only way to enter Mordor.
Furthermore, it´s unclear to me why Aragorn would become king in this timeline. The reason he could become King Elessar in the actual story is that he had proven himself a worthy successor of Elendil. If Sauron were defeated while Aragorn was still a young boy, Aragorn would not have had the chance to prove himself. The stewards of Gondor would most likely not have accepted Aragorn as their liege.
I think the assumption for that is that if the White Council stepped forward and said 'This is the lost line, accept him as your King", then Gondor would have grudgingly accepted it. You don't really say no to three wizards, and a bunch of elves.
It would most probably have led to a major war between Gondor and the White Council. The only reason Aragorn was accepted as the King of Gondor was due to his extraordinary feats in the War of the Ring - and the death of Denethor. His heritage alone was not enough - otherwise the other Chieftains of the Dunedain could have become King as well.
Fantastic theory...things would have been a lot different and there certainly would have been a lot less bloodshed!
This was a great video! Thanks so much for doing all the work on Middle Earth, and an extra Thank You for this video. Much appreciation!
What if Gandalf had been made evil?
Game over
That was BEAUTIFUL. I feel like the only part of that I'd disagree with, however, would be Bilbo not sailing into the West. I feel like he'd sail irregardless of how corrupted the ring had made him, as he was a ring bearer, plain and simple.
I agree, and was just thinking the same thing. Sam went into the west eventually, and he only carried the ring for a very short time.
What if Sméagol never found the ring?
no LOTR story ? :)
I can imagine if he build an army worthy of Middle Earth
One idea I had was something I got from the "Deltora Quest" books. Creatures called "Ols" misty creatures that are shape shifters
Something temporary to atleast by them time
Another idea was something I got from the anime called "Naruto" when it comes to a rare technique called "Kekkei Genkai"
Like call certain people by a dream to gather at Isanguard