It's not surprising that some companies are submitting toned-down paddles for approval to cheat the system. I'm glad to see that USAP is checking paddles even after they’ve been approved. I'm unsure how often this occurs, but it's a step in the right direction. Hopefully, this will deter companies from sending in toned-down paddles in the future. Keep up the excellent content! I always enjoy when Justin dives deep into paddles or discusses the pickleball industry.
I dont think there is any shame in playing at your level. Plating up to practice and grow is one thing, but playing up in a tournament setting just sets players up for a frustrating experience. And especially at PPA Dallas where there will be higher levels playing down. A few medals in a honest 3.5/3.75 scenario will bolster confidence and is a more complete overall picture of a players true rating. Fwiw👊
Yes on the Metric. Combining all the data into a single number we can compare helps big time!!!! Makes perfect sense. Like the 0-100 scale where the higher number is slower.
Any plans to review the Pikkl Hurricane pro? Just curious why no one is really reviewing it and it seems to be a very solid contender in the wide body/ standard shape category
I think that maneuverability metric is very very informative. The last paddle I bought was the Gruvn muvn 13s after looking at other reviewers spreadsheets and trying to figure out high maneuverability. I think having a set single number for a paddle would be extremely beneficial. Right now the data set that you guys and other reviewers have assembled is very good but now’s the time to utilize them. It’s time for advanced metrics! Thanks!
Total nerd here: 1. you didn't steal the paddle databases (even though Chris doesn't let you copy and paste into excel). But if you did, I did too lol. I made a vid on SW/TW ratio and in a nutshell, electrum/gruvn were best, and Gearbox was worst. I also found that thermoformed paddles were significantly different than non thermoformed (using Anova test). And you mentioned some averages - but you missed my favorite average - Price !! Across the board the average was 180 dollars. Some of my vids are nerdy boring but seems like right up your alley. Great podcast guys !!
Luqi is the best! I just talked about them a bit in my Fat Boy review. The Supreme is super soft and spongy with a nice tacky feel. The Super Dry is very similar to Tournagrip but comes in more colors, And the Ultimate is right in between the two, being thinner and stretchier than the supreme but softer and tackier than the Super Dry.
I enjoyed the podcast. I have heard the same thing on social media about manufacturers are giving that option to companies. I would like to know the maneuverability metrics. Thank you, Lewis and Justin.
You might find that a control paddle helps out those tournament results. Went to a Neonic Flow from a J2K b/c I was worried about pop-ups under pressure. Ended up winning gold in 4.0 out of 20 teams! Felt so much more confident in the soft game. Also- have noticed that in some of your gameplay clips you're playing against competition that is probably below your level. Consistently playing against players better than you will make tournaments feel easier
Great insight, definitely something I’ve been thinking about more and more which is why I’m playing less and drilling more to keep the level of play up! Although the j3k pro is a pretty aggressive paddle it’s very easy to control which is what makes it so good but maybe I should try something completely control oriented and see how it goes. Thanks for the comment dude!
@@PickleballPursuit Love to hear it, once I started drilling my improvement skyrocketed. You know what you need to work on now, just gotta keep grinding drills to fix the problems! Tbh low level rec play might even hurt more than it helps, can get away with bad decisions since you're just better than the opponents
When I looked at all three major databases - sometimes you'd have the same paddle in each but it's hard to eliminate duplicates because of the way they were entered. So if one said NovaR1 but the other sheet said Nova.R1 etc. Justin probably put a lot of time scrubbing stuff out.... I'd love a copy !!!
Can you copy out the Nerd Towns and create videos of just them each week? Thinking like The Dink makes a bunch of shorts out of their weekly podcast. Then put those short videos in their own folder/group. Extra views. Plus I try to reference them on Chris’ discord when answering questions.
Alien Pro C-Tac have been my go to. I have hand sweat issues. When my hand gets wiped off the grip is real tacky to the touch. Justin how do I get that hat? For sure the "nerdiest" nerd town episode. Just put 5.5 gm each side at the 4/8 corners on my MARK Kinetic. Static now @ 9.21
So I would assume maneuverability metric would mainly be useful for how a paddle plays at the kitchen, in particular firefights. I think the problem then becomes we have both static weight only movements (from point a to be before the hit) and static weight + swing weight movements (flips, rolls, blocks, punches, scorpions, etc). At some point your paddle is too heavy to get to point b in time for the low swing weight magic. Also … if you are a nerdie … a nerdie without a Briffidi … what you really want to know is if your Apollo will still be fast enough a kitchen at 8.6 oz. Apparently you have to weight these standard shape paddles quite a bit to get them past “where’s the beef”. 8.6 oz is working for me, but it isn’t exactly saying “should try 9 oz). Can’t have a paddle discussion without the tradeoff discussion. My tennis overhead rocked with Vatic Pro V7, not so much with Apollo. A higher swing weight and I would say more head heavy is your friend with paddle overheads. I only bring it up because a race to the lowest maneuverability metric leaves overheads and drives behind laying beside the road. (Lewis isn’t the only one that can drama queen ;) ). And finally … a question for Lewis in the question and answer section: “Would it be better to become a 5.0 in those short shorts, or a 4.0 in respectable shorts?” Shorts might be restraining much potential … relaxed fit for less errors and the win. ;) Good pod … love that Justin always looks like he knows a secret but can’t tell us or he would have to kill us. ;)
Very thoughtful and I agree with you about the maneuverability score. The trick is finding the right formula that values static weight, swing weight, twist weight, and balance point at their correct respective importance/feel. I don't think it's a "race to the lowest score", but rather something where different people would realize that they have a certain preference or could easily compare to other paddles they've tried if we knew the scores for all of the paddles. For instance, I tend to like paddles around the 50 score (when modified) and Louis likely prefers something around 60 so far. I think we'll likely discuss the maneuverability score again on a future episode as we hone it. Your comment about me having secrets made me laugh out loud. The magic of the pod is that we get to loosely BS while also dancing around a lot of stuff.
@@Justin_MarkPB I’m here for your carefully timed release of dirty paddle manufacturing secrets … your devious plan worked. My comment about “race to fastest hands” is just a reflection of my frustrating (but fun) paddle journey in 18 months of pickleball. Never had these big tradeoffs with tennis racquets. I played tennis on the pickleball court for the first 6+ months … we all know how that story ends … become one with that stupid stupid ;) kitchen. Goodbye thermoformed extended … hello thermoformed hybrid. Wasn’t happening fast enough … so dropped thermoformed for a couple of months with Prism Flash 16mm … worked … then back to thermoformed hybrid for more power on drives. Now I have arrived at Apollo. After replacing stock grip with Wilson Comfort-Aire Sponge, an over grip, 3g at 4, 8 and 12 … love it. Good at both drives and kitchen … hard to pull off. However … overheads were anemic for first couple of weeks. You stack an extended, hybrid and standard on top of each other and you ask “how can they feel so different?”. I’ve adjusted now on overheads, will never be extended overheads, but good enough for the gains at the kitchen. So hopefully I just watch you and Lewis and the others now out of curiosity rather than repeated new paddle purchases. LOL … who am I kidding. I just know there is a paddle around the corner that will make a crap plastic ball feel good like a tennis ball. Wish me luck staying married. edit: I’m not sure about paddle balance points preferences. With racquets, light racquets tended to be head heavy, and heavy racquets head light. Paddles are 16” levers vs 27” levers (racquets). I would not be surprised if all paddles play better head heavy … and then just a preference on how head heavy.
@@Justin_MarkPBbtw … I posted something similar on Kew’s and Eddie’s podcast. I challenged them both to convince me (while drinking) adding an ounce to a paddle can make you faster at the kitchen. ;) Here is what I would offer to them after failing to convince me: - an ounce is 5 quarters - the average adult male arm is 8-10lbs - man up p.u.s.s.y
@@Justin_MarkPBI posted this on tech dudes channel … thought it might interest you in your swing metrics effort. fyi … I told tech dude you can’t lower swing weight of stock paddle by adding weight (think Slyce). He disagreed … what say you? my posted comments: “The paddle guys have adopted the same racquet Briffidi tool to test paddles, but with different handle adapter. The more I think about it the more I doubt SW is as useful a metric for paddles as it is for tennis racquets. A racquet is a 27” lever, and SW is a metric for full tennis strokes from the baseline. Paddles are a lighter 16” lever, and we are more concerned about fast hands at kitchen in doubles than any full swings from baseline. With racquets, if you checked specs for all 11.5 oz 4 pts head light racquets, all of the swing weights would be very close. SW is useful in tennis when you move to a different weight racquet and want a similar swing timing on full strokes. Say you go from a 10.5 oz head heavy racquet to a 11+ oz head light racquet. You can look at swing weights on both to stay in same ball park. With different length/shape paddles, more variation in construction, we are probably a ways away from zeroing in on metrics.”
@@65atBestPB You are correct that you cannot reduce SW by adding weight anywhere. You can affect the balance point and feel which can add perceived maneuverability. That is basically the impetus for creating the Maneuverability Score. I do think SW is still a very useful metric for PB. I agree that we still have more to learn about metrics and how to use them to our best advantage.
great question. John Kew mentioned two very different motions which kind of throw a wrench into this discussion. Punch volley motion comes from the elbow but pivoting the whole paddle from a backhand position to a forehand position requires moving all parts of the paddle. So to answer your question: "hand speed is defined by the time it takes you to..." fizzle
@@Justin_MarkPB Oh cool. Nice to meet you Justin. Good stuff. You guys should do more tournies together and post it. I thought the last podcast was pretty funny. And your opponents looked pretty good. I didn't think they were in a 3.5 bracket.
The maneuverability score is NOT intuitive. A high maneuverability number means it's not maneuverable...!?!? But low score is... Was this inspired by the pH scale - ok, got it. Joking aside, it's a good idea, just need a more intuitive output number.
@@PickleballPursuit That's a very good point! I think those metrics seem more intuitive because higher weight values require more force/effort. Using Maneuverability as the title seems to relate more to agility/quickness, at least to me - so the inverse of your scale. Perhaps "Maneuverability Weight" is more in line with the input metrics (seems like an easier crossover idea). Just my $0.02, could be $0.03 with inflation though 🤣. New listener and enjoy your POD. Thanks!
It's not surprising that some companies are submitting toned-down paddles for approval to cheat the system. I'm glad to see that USAP is checking paddles even after they’ve been approved. I'm unsure how often this occurs, but it's a step in the right direction. Hopefully, this will deter companies from sending in toned-down paddles in the future. Keep up the excellent content! I always enjoy when Justin dives deep into paddles or discusses the pickleball industry.
USAP should be taking random samples from inventory. Wouldn't that be best practice ? Maybe USAP resources prohibit best practices. good comment.
I dont think there is any shame in playing at your level. Plating up to practice and grow is one thing, but playing up in a tournament setting just sets players up for a frustrating experience. And especially at PPA Dallas where there will be higher levels playing down.
A few medals in a honest 3.5/3.75 scenario will bolster confidence and is a more complete overall picture of a players true rating. Fwiw👊
Yes on the Metric. Combining all the data into a single number we can compare helps big time!!!! Makes perfect sense. Like the 0-100 scale where the higher number is slower.
Any plans to review the Pikkl Hurricane pro? Just curious why no one is really reviewing it and it seems to be a very solid contender in the wide body/ standard shape category
Same!
I think that maneuverability metric is very very informative. The last paddle I bought was the Gruvn muvn 13s after looking at other reviewers spreadsheets and trying to figure out high maneuverability. I think having a set single number for a paddle would be extremely beneficial. Right now the data set that you guys and other reviewers have assembled is very good but now’s the time to utilize them. It’s time for advanced metrics! Thanks!
Thoroughly enjoyed this visit to NERD TOWN. I think there needs to be a gift shop to pick up some souvenirs! #NerdTownMerch #ChooChoo
I'm a fan of the Alien Pro overgrips. I prefer the dry soft grips, but they have the tacky ones also.
I mainly use Gamma Supreme over grips. I tried Six Zero / Wilson and went through it too fast. Gamma is cheaper and lasts allot longer
Love Gamma Supreme as well!
Total nerd here: 1. you didn't steal the paddle databases (even though Chris doesn't let you copy and paste into excel). But if you did, I did too lol. I made a vid on SW/TW ratio and in a nutshell, electrum/gruvn were best, and Gearbox was worst. I also found that thermoformed paddles were significantly different than non thermoformed (using Anova test). And you mentioned some averages - but you missed my favorite average - Price !! Across the board the average was 180 dollars. Some of my vids are nerdy boring but seems like right up your alley. Great podcast guys !!
Luqi is the best! I just talked about them a bit in my Fat Boy review.
The Supreme is super soft and spongy with a nice tacky feel. The Super Dry is very similar to Tournagrip but comes in more colors, And the Ultimate is right in between the two, being thinner and stretchier than the supreme but softer and tackier than the Super Dry.
Is Justin's spreadsheet available for viewing online?
I enjoyed the podcast. I have heard the same thing on social media about manufacturers are giving that option to companies. I would like to know the maneuverability metrics. Thank you, Lewis and Justin.
PP, come out to San Diego. There's some really high level Open Rec. Meet up with me and we can partner up.
You might find that a control paddle helps out those tournament results. Went to a Neonic Flow from a J2K b/c I was worried about pop-ups under pressure. Ended up winning gold in 4.0 out of 20 teams! Felt so much more confident in the soft game.
Also- have noticed that in some of your gameplay clips you're playing against competition that is probably below your level. Consistently playing against players better than you will make tournaments feel easier
Great insight, definitely something I’ve been thinking about more and more which is why I’m playing less and drilling more to keep the level of play up! Although the j3k pro is a pretty aggressive paddle it’s very easy to control which is what makes it so good but maybe I should try something completely control oriented and see how it goes. Thanks for the comment dude!
@@PickleballPursuit Love to hear it, once I started drilling my improvement skyrocketed. You know what you need to work on now, just gotta keep grinding drills to fix the problems! Tbh low level rec play might even hurt more than it helps, can get away with bad decisions since you're just better than the opponents
Yes, use maneuverability scores and please share the mega database.
When I looked at all three major databases - sometimes you'd have the same paddle in each but it's hard to eliminate duplicates because of the way they were entered. So if one said NovaR1 but the other sheet said Nova.R1 etc. Justin probably put a lot of time scrubbing stuff out.... I'd love a copy !!!
Can you copy out the Nerd Towns and create videos of just them each week? Thinking like The Dink makes a bunch of shorts out of their weekly podcast. Then put those short videos in their own folder/group. Extra views. Plus I try to reference them on Chris’ discord when answering questions.
Bohdi over grips for the win!
Alien Pro C-Tac have been my go to. I have hand sweat issues. When my hand gets wiped off the grip is real tacky to the touch.
Justin how do I get that hat?
For sure the "nerdiest" nerd town episode. Just put 5.5 gm each side at the 4/8 corners on my MARK Kinetic. Static now @ 9.21
Luv ur show 😊
luqi supreme grips. but u might like the ultimates
Agreed!
Try out the bodhi grips. Way better than anything else I've found
More importantly when will you guys grace the tournament world again?
The all court has fiberglass. I don't think the jelly bean does though.
The jelly bean also has a layer of fiberglass under 2 layers of CF
It does. Same CFC surface as the AC.
Protein paddles 💪
Keep up the great podcast, man.
So I would assume maneuverability metric would mainly be useful for how a paddle plays at the kitchen, in particular firefights. I think the problem then becomes we have both static weight only movements (from point a to be before the hit) and static weight + swing weight movements (flips, rolls, blocks, punches, scorpions, etc). At some point your paddle is too heavy to get to point b in time for the low swing weight magic.
Also … if you are a nerdie … a nerdie without a Briffidi … what you really want to know is if your Apollo will still be fast enough a kitchen at 8.6 oz. Apparently you have to weight these standard shape paddles quite a bit to get them past “where’s the beef”. 8.6 oz is working for me, but it isn’t exactly saying “should try 9 oz).
Can’t have a paddle discussion without the tradeoff discussion. My tennis overhead rocked with Vatic Pro V7, not so much with Apollo. A higher swing weight and I would say more head heavy is your friend with paddle overheads. I only bring it up because a race to the lowest maneuverability metric leaves overheads and drives behind laying beside the road. (Lewis isn’t the only one that can drama queen ;) ).
And finally … a question for Lewis in the question and answer section:
“Would it be better to become a 5.0 in those short shorts, or a 4.0 in respectable shorts?” Shorts might be restraining much potential … relaxed fit for less errors and the win. ;)
Good pod … love that Justin always looks like he knows a secret but can’t tell us or he would have to kill us. ;)
Very thoughtful and I agree with you about the maneuverability score. The trick is finding the right formula that values static weight, swing weight, twist weight, and balance point at their correct respective importance/feel. I don't think it's a "race to the lowest score", but rather something where different people would realize that they have a certain preference or could easily compare to other paddles they've tried if we knew the scores for all of the paddles. For instance, I tend to like paddles around the 50 score (when modified) and Louis likely prefers something around 60 so far. I think we'll likely discuss the maneuverability score again on a future episode as we hone it.
Your comment about me having secrets made me laugh out loud. The magic of the pod is that we get to loosely BS while also dancing around a lot of stuff.
@@Justin_MarkPB I’m here for your carefully timed release of dirty paddle manufacturing secrets … your devious plan worked.
My comment about “race to fastest hands” is just a reflection of my frustrating (but fun) paddle journey in 18 months of pickleball. Never had these big tradeoffs with tennis racquets. I played tennis on the pickleball court for the first 6+ months … we all know how that story ends … become one with that stupid stupid ;) kitchen. Goodbye thermoformed extended … hello thermoformed hybrid. Wasn’t happening fast enough … so dropped thermoformed for a couple of months with Prism Flash 16mm … worked … then back to thermoformed hybrid for more power on drives. Now I have arrived at Apollo. After replacing stock grip with Wilson Comfort-Aire Sponge, an over grip, 3g at 4, 8 and 12 … love it. Good at both drives and kitchen … hard to pull off. However … overheads were anemic for first couple of weeks. You stack an extended, hybrid and standard on top of each other and you ask “how can they feel so different?”. I’ve adjusted now on overheads, will never be extended overheads, but good enough for the gains at the kitchen.
So hopefully I just watch you and Lewis and the others now out of curiosity rather than repeated new paddle purchases. LOL … who am I kidding. I just know there is a paddle around the corner that will make a crap plastic ball feel good like a tennis ball. Wish me luck staying married.
edit: I’m not sure about paddle balance points preferences. With racquets, light racquets tended to be head heavy, and heavy racquets head light. Paddles are 16” levers vs 27” levers (racquets). I would not be surprised if all paddles play better head heavy … and then just a preference on how head heavy.
@@Justin_MarkPBbtw … I posted something similar on Kew’s and Eddie’s podcast. I challenged them both to convince me (while drinking) adding an ounce to a paddle can make you faster at the kitchen. ;)
Here is what I would offer to them after failing to convince me:
- an ounce is 5 quarters
- the average adult male arm is 8-10lbs
- man up p.u.s.s.y
@@Justin_MarkPBI posted this on tech dudes channel … thought it might interest you in your swing metrics effort. fyi … I told tech dude you can’t lower swing weight of stock paddle by adding weight (think Slyce). He disagreed … what say you?
my posted comments:
“The paddle guys have adopted the same racquet Briffidi tool to test paddles, but with different handle adapter. The more I think about it the more I doubt SW is as useful a metric for paddles as it is for tennis racquets. A racquet is a 27” lever, and SW is a metric for full tennis strokes from the baseline. Paddles are a lighter 16” lever, and we are more concerned about fast hands at kitchen in doubles than any full swings from baseline. With racquets, if you checked specs for all 11.5 oz 4 pts head light racquets, all of the swing weights would be very close. SW is useful in tennis when you move to a different weight racquet and want a similar swing timing on full strokes. Say you go from a 10.5 oz head heavy racquet to a 11+ oz head light racquet. You can look at swing weights on both to stay in same ball park. With different length/shape paddles, more variation in construction, we are probably a ways away from zeroing in on metrics.”
@@65atBestPB You are correct that you cannot reduce SW by adding weight anywhere. You can affect the balance point and feel which can add perceived maneuverability. That is basically the impetus for creating the Maneuverability Score. I do think SW is still a very useful metric for PB. I agree that we still have more to learn about metrics and how to use them to our best advantage.
Yonex Dry Grap I tired others however they last longer I prioritize dry feel over tacky I wish I could find an easer to get and cheaper alternative.
How would you compare the Beetnik to the black ace?
How to do define / explain “hand speed”?
great question. John Kew mentioned two very different motions which kind of throw a wrench into this discussion. Punch volley motion comes from the elbow but pivoting the whole paddle from a backhand position to a forehand position requires moving all parts of the paddle. So to answer your question: "hand speed is defined by the time it takes you to..." fizzle
PP isn't your guest Mark Wesley? You referred to him as Justin? I'm confused I thought the guy next to you is the owner of Mark Paddles.
👋 I'm the co-host Justin. I am the Head of Product Development for Mark Pickleball. Wesley Mark is the owner.
@@Justin_MarkPB Oh cool. Nice to meet you Justin. Good stuff. You guys should do more tournies together and post it. I thought the last podcast was pretty funny. And your opponents looked pretty good. I didn't think they were in a 3.5 bracket.
The maneuverability score is NOT intuitive. A high maneuverability number means it's not maneuverable...!?!? But low score is... Was this inspired by the pH scale - ok, got it. Joking aside, it's a good idea, just need a more intuitive output number.
It goes in line with every other weight metric. The higher twist weight, swingweight, or balance point, the less maneuverable
@@PickleballPursuit That's a very good point! I think those metrics seem more intuitive because higher weight values require more force/effort. Using Maneuverability as the title seems to relate more to agility/quickness, at least to me - so the inverse of your scale. Perhaps "Maneuverability Weight" is more in line with the input metrics (seems like an easier crossover idea). Just my $0.02, could be $0.03 with inflation though 🤣. New listener and enjoy your POD. Thanks!
Inverse the scale of your swing weight. 100 resonates faster than zero.
Swing speed not weight