We have a job that requires our using the 3-layer sandwich mode for printing ¾” clear acrylic using the color-white-color setting. This is for an internally lit cabinet sign and the image is being printed on the 2nd surface so that when flipped over the viewer is seeing the graphics through the thick acrylic. We understand that in this mode there are two densities created for the two color layers. The problem we’re encountering is that when we flip over the printed image to evaluate it the more muted color appears to be the one that is printed first, followed by the white, and finally the more saturated color. How do we get that more saturated color to print first, so that when the finished piece is flipped over it is the more saturated color that is viewed as the front layer? Is there a setting on the printer or in Onyx that we’re missing? Thank you.
Great question with an easy answer: edit your print mode at the IPS and swap the ink densities between "A" and "B." The default behavior of most print modes assumes first-surface application, so for second-surface the ink densities will be backward from what you need.
@@LeeManevitch We tried this but saw no difference in the results. Do you have a video or can you link to a video that would should on the printer how to edit the print mode at the IPS? There is no discernible visual difference that we can see from the "A" and "B" densities -- shouldn't that be apparent on the monitor so one can be sure that the correct density is selected for the preferred order? Thank you for any further resources you can recommend that would demonstrate what we're trying to achieve.
I don't know that you'll see the difference onscreen - you should look in the print mode itself on the IPS and see what the densities are for side A and B. I no longer have easy access to an R-Series without driving 80 miles, so I'm unable to give you anything step-by-step. This might be a question for the HP support team, if checking the print mode doesn't reveal anything obvious.
This is a very informative video. We are trying to achieve this for Pantone accuracy on a 3L sandwich, day time/night time backlit translucent vinyl. Ive contacted HP and they told us to use the same file on a UF ripped image, then change it to 3L when at the printer (we have a 2700W). The color is great as a frontlit but the backlit is way over saturated turning our 021 orange to red. How do you RIP these files over for the muted bottom layer?
If it's oversaturating when you backlight the sign, then you probably need to dial back the ink density on the non-image side of your print. There's no real rule of thumb here because it's entirely dependent on the light source you're using...but lower that backside ink density and run a small test to see if that accomplishes what you need it to.
@LeeManevitch that's where we are struggling. With HP only showing us how to achieve this by ripping UF we are cuffed to that. We have yet to be able to RIP a true 3L file through Caldera to allow us control of the ink density on each color layer. Do you know how to achieve that at the RIP?
@@LeeManevitch Yes! I just watched this video! It was super helpful and I think we are closer to achieving what we are looking for! It does look like sending a file with a higher UF ink density and pass as one layer and a lower UF ink density and pass for the other layer does translate over at the printer. We are going to test this once we get our replacement white head. Is that how you achieve the muted under layer in this 3L example? Or does changing the print mode to 3L at the printer automatically create a muted bottom layer?
You can do it that way, but at the IPS if you edit the sandwich mode you'll see settings for Ink Density A and Ink Density B - the IPS will honor whatever density you select for those so if you send just one UF file and then convert it to SW, it will dial back the ink density automatically if that's how the mode is set up. For example, you could set up a mode that's 120% on the viewing side, and 80% on the non-viewing side.
Hello Do you want to do more videos about the 700W at our RM wraps shop in Meridian Idaho. :) We are learning more about the White inks. There's a lot to learn.
3-layer was only intended to be a day/night application and there is no way at all to do what you're asking - if you want blockout you need to go to a 5-layer mode. Remember that Latex inks are transparent, so printing color/black/color would not provide the contrast you'll need in order to see your design; it will look exactly like printing color-only on black vinyl.
@@LeeManevitch Thank you for the quick reply! As of now we do Color than white. I was thinking color-White-then Black on a specific part of the substrate. Is this only doable with a completely separate pass through the R1000?
Black is only generated where the white is - so if you want a "window" through your print that's only color, you can design the white with clear sections and there will be no black there either. But if that's not really what you need then I'm afraid there's no mechanism on the printer to do what you're talking about. There's a TON of math involved with layered printing - making sure that all nozzles are apportioned equally, etc. - and adding more layers in the form of additional black would require even more calculations, and my guess is the demand was not significant enough to consider it.
Oh...I should point out that if you're looking for just color/white/black then yes, create a 3-layer print and just have your nonviewing color side be your black. People do that all the time.
@@LeeManevitch Yes! that is what I want. Color than white for the illuminated area then black in one spot to kill the light. I want to limit the backlight emission in one specific spot. Is there any documentation on this 3 layer process? Is it simply a case of another overprint layer in black above the white? Thanks again for your time! Really appreciate it!
hi where can i get the test print files from. trying to create an effect like the dandelion photo you showed, but need to get the source file to understand the setup procedure
Spot prints white and color at the same time, and that's not negotiable. So if you print both in the same place they will mix. The reason the other modes exist is specifically so there is separation between white and color - both in terms of time (drying) and also by dropping additional Optimizer between layers. If those modes weren't necessary to create, I promise the development team wouldn't have spent as much time as they did making them work. 😄
@@LeeManevitch thanks, I’m currently using underfloor white at 100% and the 700w is slow. I’m just trying to figure out how to get faster print speeds with out compromising the opacity of the white. Do you have any tips?
White density in any print mode is controlled by the number of passes, so unless you can get by with lower density (which you can't in this case) there aren't any additional "knobs" you can change to make the printer move faster than it does. About the only advice I *could* give is that if you're not maximizing your carriage (printing 36" media, for example) or maximizing your layout efficiency, then you can see gains that way. Max throughput on the 700W in Underflood at 100% white density is 32 square feet per hour, and that assumes a full-width roll with full-width graphics. If your workflow and job specifics allow you to change to Overflood (white over color) then you'd see that throughput change to 65 sqft/hr but if you're printing on nontransparent media then that's a no-go. It's a delicate balancing act when white is involved...if it prints too fast then the white and color will mix, or the ink won't fully cure. Both of those outcomes are way worse than having to wait for a print to finish.
Hello, im trying to get white and a color to print at the same time. I can get white and i can get color, just not at the same time. Im just trying to print one colored dot surrounded by several white dots. This is being printed on a clear substrate that will be applied to glass second surface. And we dont want sandwich mode with color white color, just individual color and white. Please help.
If you want white and color to print at the same time - and there's no overlap between white and color - then Spot mode is what you need. Have you tried that and you're having issues? PS second surface so don't forget to reflect your image!
im using onyx and ive tried spot mode, but when we do it, it prints the white circles and floods white over the top of the colored circle@@LeeManevitch
Are you also adding white in Onyx? It's either/or - if you create white in Onyx you can't use your designed white, and vice-versa. From your description, you need to design the white outside of Onyx and then don't do anything in Onyx to create white. If you want to send me your file, email it to youtube@manevitch.com and I'll send back a quick video of how it all *should* work.
Hi Lee, Im having some difficulty using this print mode. Im using underflood to prints some white lettering and a white background section with color on top. But, my white is printing like is offset. like there's 2 layers of and they don't line up. Could you offer any advice? Mess with smart choke?
What "this" print mode are you talking about? In general yes - Smart Choke MUST be turned on because the diameter of the white ink drops is slightly larger than that of the colors...so even if registration is perfect, there will be white ink peeking out. Start with 4px and adjust from there. If it's misaligned by a lot, though, that's a head alignment issue.
Yes; all but 5-layer sandwich mode, which is not offered on the new HP Latex 700 W and 800 W. That mode might be offered in the future, but I have no idea if or when that will ever be released.
@@LeeManevitch hi, when I try the 5-layer sandwich mode with my 800W HP with a different file for the second "face" I get a error when I click on "print now". the file goes on the lower window and onyx doesn't send it to the printer.
@@diegotiveron3108 You probably need to contact Onyx about this but if I recall there's an issue with sandwich mode printing when using PDF and cropping or scaling the file(s). So if that's what might be going on you may want to try saving as EPS instead and seeing if that helps. But it does appear to be RIP-related so get in touch with them. they're great people and while the people who answer support calls can't rewrite software they definitely can give you strategies for fixing the issue from your end.
In Flexi, yes. That functionally still isn't offered from Onyx. That's for the 700/800 - if you're asking about the R Series then yes...hundreds of people have been doing that for years now with no issue.
This was the best video I have seen. Thank you!
We have a job that requires our using the 3-layer sandwich mode for printing ¾” clear acrylic using the color-white-color setting. This is for an internally lit cabinet sign and the image is being printed on the 2nd surface so that when flipped over the viewer is seeing the graphics through the thick acrylic. We understand that in this mode there are two densities created for the two color layers. The problem we’re encountering is that when we flip over the printed image to evaluate it the more muted color appears to be the one that is printed first, followed by the white, and finally the more saturated color. How do we get that more saturated color to print first, so that when the finished piece is flipped over it is the more saturated color that is viewed as the front layer? Is there a setting on the printer or in Onyx that we’re missing? Thank you.
Great question with an easy answer: edit your print mode at the IPS and swap the ink densities between "A" and "B." The default behavior of most print modes assumes first-surface application, so for second-surface the ink densities will be backward from what you need.
@@LeeManevitch We tried this but saw no difference in the results. Do you have a video or can you link to a video that would should on the printer how to edit the print mode at the IPS? There is no discernible visual difference that we can see from the "A" and "B" densities -- shouldn't that be apparent on the monitor so one can be sure that the correct density is selected for the preferred order? Thank you for any further resources you can recommend that would demonstrate what we're trying to achieve.
I don't know that you'll see the difference onscreen - you should look in the print mode itself on the IPS and see what the densities are for side A and B. I no longer have easy access to an R-Series without driving 80 miles, so I'm unable to give you anything step-by-step. This might be a question for the HP support team, if checking the print mode doesn't reveal anything obvious.
This is a very informative video. We are trying to achieve this for Pantone accuracy on a 3L sandwich, day time/night time backlit translucent vinyl. Ive contacted HP and they told us to use the same file on a UF ripped image, then change it to 3L when at the printer (we have a 2700W). The color is great as a frontlit but the backlit is way over saturated turning our 021 orange to red. How do you RIP these files over for the muted bottom layer?
If it's oversaturating when you backlight the sign, then you probably need to dial back the ink density on the non-image side of your print. There's no real rule of thumb here because it's entirely dependent on the light source you're using...but lower that backside ink density and run a small test to see if that accomplishes what you need it to.
@LeeManevitch that's where we are struggling. With HP only showing us how to achieve this by ripping UF we are cuffed to that. We have yet to be able to RIP a true 3L file through Caldera to allow us control of the ink density on each color layer. Do you know how to achieve that at the RIP?
Oh! I didn't look at which video this comment was attached to. I have a sandwich mode video available at th-cam.com/video/HvdAnSY97ho/w-d-xo.html
@@LeeManevitch Yes! I just watched this video! It was super helpful and I think we are closer to achieving what we are looking for! It does look like sending a file with a higher UF ink density and pass as one layer and a lower UF ink density and pass for the other layer does translate over at the printer. We are going to test this once we get our replacement white head. Is that how you achieve the muted under layer in this 3L example? Or does changing the print mode to 3L at the printer automatically create a muted bottom layer?
You can do it that way, but at the IPS if you edit the sandwich mode you'll see settings for Ink Density A and Ink Density B - the IPS will honor whatever density you select for those so if you send just one UF file and then convert it to SW, it will dial back the ink density automatically if that's how the mode is set up. For example, you could set up a mode that's 120% on the viewing side, and 80% on the non-viewing side.
Hello Do you want to do more videos about the 700W at our RM wraps shop in Meridian Idaho. :) We are learning more about the White inks. There's a lot to learn.
Reach out to me at lee.manevitch@hp.com and we can discuss.
Can the Latex 335 print white?
No, and there is no ability to retrofit to include white. The 335 is a third-generation Latex printer and white is a fourth-generation technology.
How can I do a 3 layer but instead of white use black to block out the backlight?
3-layer was only intended to be a day/night application and there is no way at all to do what you're asking - if you want blockout you need to go to a 5-layer mode.
Remember that Latex inks are transparent, so printing color/black/color would not provide the contrast you'll need in order to see your design; it will look exactly like printing color-only on black vinyl.
@@LeeManevitch Thank you for the quick reply! As of now we do Color than white. I was thinking color-White-then Black on a specific part of the substrate. Is this only doable with a completely separate pass through the R1000?
Black is only generated where the white is - so if you want a "window" through your print that's only color, you can design the white with clear sections and there will be no black there either. But if that's not really what you need then I'm afraid there's no mechanism on the printer to do what you're talking about.
There's a TON of math involved with layered printing - making sure that all nozzles are apportioned equally, etc. - and adding more layers in the form of additional black would require even more calculations, and my guess is the demand was not significant enough to consider it.
Oh...I should point out that if you're looking for just color/white/black then yes, create a 3-layer print and just have your nonviewing color side be your black. People do that all the time.
@@LeeManevitch Yes! that is what I want. Color than white for the illuminated area then black in one spot to kill the light. I want to limit the backlight emission in one specific spot. Is there any documentation on this 3 layer process? Is it simply a case of another overprint layer in black above the white? Thanks again for your time! Really appreciate it!
hi where can i get the test print files from. trying to create an effect like the dandelion photo you showed, but need to get the source file to understand the setup procedure
All my photos are from paid stock websites, so I can't provide them, but you can probably find some good images on sites like Unsplash.
Can spot mode be used and still print color on top? I would like to use both print heads to get faster printing
Spot prints white and color at the same time, and that's not negotiable. So if you print both in the same place they will mix.
The reason the other modes exist is specifically so there is separation between white and color - both in terms of time (drying) and also by dropping additional Optimizer between layers. If those modes weren't necessary to create, I promise the development team wouldn't have spent as much time as they did making them work. 😄
@@LeeManevitch thanks, I’m currently using underfloor white at 100% and the 700w is slow. I’m just trying to figure out how to get faster print speeds with out compromising the opacity of the white. Do you have any tips?
White density in any print mode is controlled by the number of passes, so unless you can get by with lower density (which you can't in this case) there aren't any additional "knobs" you can change to make the printer move faster than it does.
About the only advice I *could* give is that if you're not maximizing your carriage (printing 36" media, for example) or maximizing your layout efficiency, then you can see gains that way. Max throughput on the 700W in Underflood at 100% white density is 32 square feet per hour, and that assumes a full-width roll with full-width graphics. If your workflow and job specifics allow you to change to Overflood (white over color) then you'd see that throughput change to 65 sqft/hr but if you're printing on nontransparent media then that's a no-go.
It's a delicate balancing act when white is involved...if it prints too fast then the white and color will mix, or the ink won't fully cure. Both of those outcomes are way worse than having to wait for a print to finish.
@@LeeManevitch day 2 with the printer and I already want to just print these jobs that need white on my Edge FX printer lol 😂
If you're running 15" punched vinyl on your 700W I think I found the problem. 🤣
Hello, im trying to get white and a color to print at the same time. I can get white and i can get color, just not at the same time. Im just trying to print one colored dot surrounded by several white dots. This is being printed on a clear substrate that will be applied to glass second surface. And we dont want sandwich mode with color white color, just individual color and white. Please help.
If you want white and color to print at the same time - and there's no overlap between white and color - then Spot mode is what you need. Have you tried that and you're having issues?
PS second surface so don't forget to reflect your image!
im using onyx and ive tried spot mode, but when we do it, it prints the white circles and floods white over the top of the colored circle@@LeeManevitch
Are you also adding white in Onyx? It's either/or - if you create white in Onyx you can't use your designed white, and vice-versa. From your description, you need to design the white outside of Onyx and then don't do anything in Onyx to create white.
If you want to send me your file, email it to youtube@manevitch.com and I'll send back a quick video of how it all *should* work.
Hi Lee,
Im having some difficulty using this print mode. Im using underflood to prints some white lettering and a white background section with color on top. But, my white is printing like is offset. like there's 2 layers of and they don't line up. Could you offer any advice? Mess with smart choke?
What "this" print mode are you talking about? In general yes - Smart Choke MUST be turned on because the diameter of the white ink drops is slightly larger than that of the colors...so even if registration is perfect, there will be white ink peeking out.
Start with 4px and adjust from there.
If it's misaligned by a lot, though, that's a head alignment issue.
Are these methods suitable for HP Latex 700W?
Yes; all but 5-layer sandwich mode, which is not offered on the new HP Latex 700 W and 800 W. That mode might be offered in the future, but I have no idea if or when that will ever be released.
@@LeeManevitch 👍
UPDATE: 5-layer sandwich mode is available on the Latex 700/800 W platforms.
@@LeeManevitch hi, when I try the 5-layer sandwich mode with my 800W HP with a different file for the second "face" I get a error when I click on "print now". the file goes on the lower window and onyx doesn't send it to the printer.
@@diegotiveron3108 You probably need to contact Onyx about this but if I recall there's an issue with sandwich mode printing when using PDF and cropping or scaling the file(s). So if that's what might be going on you may want to try saving as EPS instead and seeing if that helps. But it does appear to be RIP-related so get in touch with them. they're great people and while the people who answer support calls can't rewrite software they definitely can give you strategies for fixing the issue from your end.
good job!
Thanks!
Super video ❤
Can I Print and Cut using the WSW mode?
In Flexi, yes. That functionally still isn't offered from Onyx.
That's for the 700/800 - if you're asking about the R Series then yes...hundreds of people have been doing that for years now with no issue.
Do these modes work for the new HP latex 800W?
Yes - all these modes are available on the R-Series and the 700/800 W roll-to-roll printers.