The Problem with Ests: examples and analysis
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ก.ค. 2024
- Love 'em, hate 'em, Ests are a well-known Fire Emblem archetype. So who exactly counts, how are they as units, and are they even a real archetype? Featuring multiple specific unit analyses from across the series, math, and an ungodly number of PNGs downloaded for this video...
Thank you to my friend @DaniDoyle for asking if I'd be interested in making a companion piece to her video on the similar-yet-different Trainee archetype, which you can watch here: • A Deep Dive into the H... . You should check the video and the rest of their content out, they're cool!
Timestamps
00:00 - Introduction
00:50 - What is an Est?
01:44 - Who are the Ests?
05:08 - The Problems with Ests
10:37 - What makes an Est a good Est?
14:01 - Ests that are good units? (Ft Zeiss)
16:03 - Looking at Cyril
18:12 - A look at Est
22:07 - Are there any merits to Ests as an archetype?
25:05 - Conclusion
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General background footage is from hypergammaspaces' Sacred Echoes, a demake of Shadows of Valentia in FE8's engine, which you can learn more about here: feuniverse.us/t/fe8-sacred-ec...
Music is from Echoes, from this video: • Fire Emblem Echoes: Ch... - เกม
I agree Akira, Merlinus is indeed an Est unit and he scales so well
No Redundancy FE7 Merlithos be like an Est when it comes to how long it takes for him to grow a set of wheels gaming?
"She was good in my run"
So true bestie
tbh i feel like normal mode zeiss is an est, while hard mode zeiss is just an underleveled wyvern rider with good enough bases for when you get him
Yeah I can definitely see the distinction that can be made there, thanks for your thoughts!
Kurthnaga and Sara probably deserve a tiny mention. The first has utility thanks to his skill and the latter is like, actually good but mostly because you need infinite staffs
Makes sense, makes sense! FE10 I haven't gotten to the point yet where he's joined (just done 3-12 and in the preps for 3-13), and uh. My Thracia playthrough has been done 4x and not started 5 for like. Several weeks... so it's definitely a blind spot for sure lol
Kurt and ena's buff go stupid crazy in endgame. On hard mode, ike with a blessed wyrmslayer standing adjacent to both of them can take out two thirds of dhegensea's hp in one round.
(You may be wondering why i had a blessed wyrmslayer its bc i had a lot of sword units like mia stefan meg ike edward etc)
@@mtj8870 that's a lot of swordies, especially bringing Edward to RD Hard Mode endgame, I respect the commitment
@@akirasoupush thru 5 brother. I nearly quit there as well. it gets a lot simpler after that one.
I would argue that not only is Est an archetype, but it's one of the few useful ones. Not that Ests are useful, no. But that the existence of the Est archetype is useful for conveying information about a unit in the game in a clear and concise manner. In a single word, we can convey a large amount of gameplay-related information about a character, in the same way Trainee/Villager or Jeigan communicates a significant amount of information.
Conversely, an archetype like "Christmas Cavaliers" isn't especially useful. Yes, it tells us we have two Cavs obtained early (though if we look at Engage, we see that this archetype can be invoked even *without* them being Cavs), but does saying "Kent and Sain are Christmas Cavs" really communicate any more information than "Kent and Sain are both early Cavs?" Yeah, one is green and one is red. Is that even remotely important to how you build your team? I don't think it is.
Interesting that you think that, since after having actually looked through people's growths, jointime and bases across the various games, I came to the conclusion that there's very little in common that the proposed Ests have in various implementations. Before that I did definitely think that it was a thing though. Mind, I can still see how it could be helpful insofar as it still basically means "late-joining, low level and underwhelming in some way"
And yeah, the Christmas Cavs I don't think are a helpful archetype, not least since as you've rightly pointed out, it's no longer really a cav thing. Other examples that come to mind immediately are: Kaze and Saizo from Fates, Lukas and Forsyth from Gaiden and Echoes. I believe it's typically red one stronger, green one faster, which could be useful for general teambuilding, but there are exceptions within this, like Kent being marginally faster than Sain
But... the Cain and Abel's archetypes has always some stats in common like Strength in Cain and Speed in Abel. Also, both are really good units since the early game until the very end.
I mean... is useful
Rosado to me doesn't feel that far behind when he joins. Especially feels weird to consider him an est but not Goldmary, who joins at the same time with the same level and similar bases. Like I feel only some of the "Est" archetypes really belong
Yeah I understand that for sure, which is partly why I didn't actually discuss Rosado in detail. I think partly everyone's disappointment in Rosado comes from him starting with an Emblem on him in his join chapter, and then also the fact that he's a Wyvern, which is a historically strong class, so the expectations are higher compared to Goldmary
Also agreed on the Est archetype thing, which is why I just went with what I was able to find online rather than a personal definition, since otherwise that would be. Much more limited in scope lel
Also all Est's start out in Base (Tier 1) classes with LOW bases even for the point of the game they join (so Rosado can't really fit that, not even Goldmary! Whatever feels towards their base stats. Their not at the level of "you neglected this charcter since Chapter 1 and NOW you're using them kind of bad base stats" which is customary for Est's!
Engage's Est is Anna, doesn't feel that way because of the fact you get her SOONER then a Est. But frankly her bases and being in a "not very fitting" class is notable! Especially with the enemies of the chapter she can be acquired and since she's OPTIONAL! She's an Est you have the OPTION to take your time getting (for those "weirdo Traditionalist AKA MYSELF" LOL who somehow MISS the horrible old days! Well maybe not me! I'm happy to get Anna as soon as possible! Only traditional thing is I never take the Lord OUT THEIR CLASS meaning Alear is "Dragon Child->Divine Dragon! NO EXCEPTIONS" Just ain't right changing the Lord of the game's main class! Three Houses is slightly different! But frankly Main Story/Paralogue" battles see the character's in their "proper classes!" Meaning for the Three Lord's it's the Lord Class till they get their personal's! And Byleth is in Sword classes like Mercenary and Swordmaster till Enlightened One comes up! I also don't promote my Lord's till about around the chapter it feels RIGHT to do so if it was the old PRE Awakening Fire Emblem's.....except Roy. He will always be the Lord with the WORST Promote time! Alear's case I promote em around after I get Timerra or after Hortensia as it feels storywise "the right time to do so" even though after Chapter 11 feels like the best time)
I'm happy to see the back of the Est archetype (hell I want more "latecomers" to join at the time Xander/Ryoma do in Birthright/Conquest as in they join right as your getting to the MID point of those entries! Even Gotoh's need to be akin to Veyle in joining right when the Endgame starts (as in when you still have chapters to go through before the end and can enjoy them! Instead of RIGHT AT THE END!)
I feel Engage Anna along with Odin are a sort 'reclassing tutorial' character, that one unit who stays bad unless you reclass them to a more fitting class.
@@SobmicSSBB Funny thing is that only applies much if you promote them to their base classes "UPGRADED" promotion! In Odin's case "Sorcerer" and in Anna case "Berserker!" As the "alt" promotions they do well in! Warrior largely because Anna can rock the Radiant Bow because of her high Magic growth and has the Backup battle style! and Dark Knight for Odin (cause are you REALLY going to put Nyx in that class!?)
Bringing up Fates is funny to me as Engage showed how NOT to do reclass that I feel Fates did better and 3Houses! And that was "Not reseting Levels!" There's no point in sticking to base classes because class skills are confine to Advanced Classes so you're being pushed to promote as soon as possible. Honestly I feel for the next FE that Class Skills should be on ALL Classes! With Base Classes having a Class Skill that is either "upgraded" when you pick a promotion that is the upgraded version of that class (Axe Fighter going Berserker) or a different but similar Class Skill if you pick an "Alt" (Sword Fighter going Hero)
But I see you're point that YEAH Anna's growths due not make a good Axe Fighter which is all about Damage over Accuracy something that benefits Boucheron (High HP and BLD) and Panette (High STR and Critical Chance). While Odin has Myrmidon/Swordmaster growths and bases in a MAGE class (Nyx is fragile and inaccurate, but has HIGH Magic so can deal ALOT of damage. Playing a Risk and Reward type game! Her Accuracy can be dealt with however! And if like me you got her DEF issue dealt with, then Vengeance if it activates and Heartseeker REALLY means any foe that gets her in Melee is going to be hurting on Enemy Phase....just make sure she's not getting ENEMY SACRIFICE RUSHED where they keep throwing every enemy in attack range till they lose them all, fail to kill the fragile target, or they kill the target in question LOL) Also doesn't help that you DO have a better Dark Knight in Leo (though Odin's going to be alot more accurate and Faster! Seriously in a funny way Odin is more the Merric of Fates with how he's you're first mage in Conquest and while weaker then you're "Second" mage, he is alot more tankier then Nyx! Leo's got decent bases and a Legendary that makes you just heart seal Odin into Myrmidon or if you have it Make him a Grandmaster and be done with it! At least Grandmaster lets him start working on his Sword Weapon Level sooner! Even though I usually wait till Level 12 to do so! Getting him BOTH Myrmidon and Dark Mage's Skills before going to Grandmaster)
Plus you have CLANNE for reclass practise! Seriously he has ALOT in common with Odin as they were trying to direct you to Mage Knight for him (Basically Dark Knight for Odin) but most just go for Sword Fighter/Swordmaster with him)
20:56 est is really good because she has 12 res so she can do good combat against arcanists with the Saunion, and later she can use swap with the saunion to move leon forward. She's seriously a good unit because of her bases and 0% growths est is legitimately almost as good as normal growths est in SOV.
Est also saves turns in Toffee's LTC because she's the 3rd flier making her goated.
12 Res Pegasus gaming is real. And yeah, given the bulk increase that growths Est experiences upon promo, I can see it for sure
And woooooooo, Toffee, my beloved
See I’d argue that Nino IS a great implementation of an Est unit, specifically because her game has plenty of good pre-promotes and powerful units.
Because you have access to Harken, Hawkeye, Marcus, trained Kent/Sain, whoever else, they are able to comfortably make space for you to train a unit like Nino.
Obviously you don’t have to and you could still use the stronger prepromote version if you wanted to, but I think that’s true of any of the Ests mentioned here.
I’m a growth unit enjoyer and Ests really scratch the itch for me, so I’m happy to see them talked about more.
Ah this has come up in another comment, so I think that my wording was bad: I didn't mean to say that Nino is a bad implementation of an Est unit, but rather that the context of FE7 being such that you already have a bunch of powerful units guaranteed means that Ests will be especially bad, for what I would consider to be a bad payoff personally
I can definitely see the angle though that because you have those units, you can afford to train up someone like Nino. While I'm not sure that especially in Hector Hard Mode, I would want to use a valuable deployment slot on a training project, I hadn't considered it before, so thanks for your thoughts!
And yeah, I think that growth units are interesting to think about for sure! Plus even though I'm obviously. Pretty critical of them here, it doesn't mean that I'm (or anyone else is) always gonna play "optimally" and only use the best units etc. So there's a place for them in the series for sure
I always love using Ests because suddenly having a unit gain HUGE exp after I've gotten so used to small numbers that it's addictive. That and a whole big slew of *ding*!
It's like winning the lottery without even entering.
Hearing all the dings is a great sound for sure! And yeah, when people aren't gaining much experience anymore, I can see the appeal of now being able to gain levels quickly (albeit typically fighting enemies stronger than them) and hopefully also gain stats quickly. So definitely Ests and Trainees fill what I think is a valuable niche for folks who are into that :>
Karel is my favorite Est, he joins with just 2 real chapters to go but has insane growths that mean even if you get the worst possible levels he'll still have pretty good stats
Unfortunately he's in the same game as rutger and the legendary weapons, which means durandal is pretty much taken
Interesting... Karel didn't show up on my radar when I was looking for who people have considered to be Ests at various points in time, but I can see it for sure. The availability for FE6 Karel sure is rough though, huh
I can’t tell if this is a joke
I think Sara is what they should be aiming for in regards to Ests even if she’s top tier. She has:
- Crazy growths with 80% in various key stats
- Good skills in Wrath/Miracle
- Can train fast due to having Paragon
- Gets insane Promotion boosts with her getting like 6 magic in a game with a 20 cap
- Can use all the staffs you want
Another fun idea would have that they get double the effect of stat boosters so you can hoard them and feed them to a unit who literally gets more out of them.
Ohhhhhhhhh that does sound cool! I didn't discuss Sara in any depth because I haven't played FE5 yet (I've got a savefile that's just before Chapter 5 that I haven't touched in around two and a half months, and I'm thinking that the only way that I'll end up being able to self-motivate to play it is to stream it here on TH-cam...), but that does sound really neat! Paragon I do think is a good way of making it less painful to catch a unit up, some GBA hacks do that with the trainee/Est moment as well and I like it there, so I imagine that I would like it in Thracia as well
I also really like the idea about the statboosters. Though it's not Est-related per se, it does remind me a bit of how the Laguz get to benefit from any boosted stats due to the stat multiplier when they transform. But yeah, I think that could be neat, since then it means that you're guaranteed to get some return on your investment. Plus it's still a meaningful choice because it means that you're divesting it from someone else who doesn't need the training arc and who could probably use the statboosters earlier to hit a key threshold
So yeah, thanks for watching and commenting! 'Twas a fun comment to read and respond to :3
Pretty sure RD Ilyana is an est in part 3 since 2/3 of the part 3 squad joins in 3-P as a promoted class. She has a low level, low stats, and (if you squint) good growths.
By the same exact logic we can deduce that Python is the est of part 1 echoes
Mmmmmmm I love squinting
Also if anything, doesn't that make the true Est of Echoes Forsyth, since Python and Forsyth are (I'm pretty sure) the same level and well... it's easier to find a use case for Python than for Forsyth lel
@@akirasou forsyth joins at a higher level than python
I will not accept forsyth slander after all the current WR LTC that didn't have 100% growths or crit control uses forsyth
@@ussgordoncaptain ah I have just checked and you are indeed correct, my bad for misinfo!
I really like Ilyana so I try to use her in a lot of my playthroughs... the amount of times that girl ends up getting strength instead of magic is mind numbingly frustrating. Sometimes it feels like her true weapon is the staff.
Ests are bad, but they provide something important: the ability to see the funny numbers go up late in the game when exp is slow.
It do feel good to see the big number increase, it's true
Like (intentionally) not an obvious fullproof solution, but I think an Est should at least get a whole optional Gaiden/Side Story Arc to themselves that's not just One-Two Chapters if you want them to be given a better chance (if they do not have super cheeseable utility that can more than make up for lackluster battle prowess).
The keyword being OPTIONAL because I know there are plenty in the fandom that would bitch on having to carry around an initial liability for a multi-chapter arc if they allowed the Est to live.
I definitely think that could be an interesting way of going about it! I guess that Nino kind of has that moment if you have her talk to Jaffar, since I wouldn't exactly call all of the enemies on that Gaiden chapter threatening... there is a reason Mekkah was able to negative growths train her there...
But yeah, definitely optional is better. If it were an FE6 automatic go to the Gaiden moment, then you just end up with what people do to avoid going to 14x, which is having Sophia convoy Warp the Guiding Ring and then die
Ests have always been the weirder of the archetypes defined retroactively by fe players, because they neither follow very defined repeated story tropes (camus) gameplay tropes (navarre) or even a combination of both (jagen), which you yourself talked about in the video.
The way they are as is though, they're kind of inherently designed to be bad units from an efficiency standpoint, which is mostly inarguable, but the casual/enjoyment aspect will always be a part of playing games, which is where their merit comes from, whether its being a cute girl you give favoritism to or being a character that gets pefect stat gains on every single level up.
Overall, I feel like its a unit that's supposed to be fun to train up, not necessarily use efficiently (like a "its about the journey, not the destination type of thing"), which is simply something that doesn't appeal to everybody, so its not really something that can be "balanced" imo, just made "more fun" to do.
Though sometimes that journey is not fun at all like training sophia or elincia in path of radiance and the destination isnt even worth it
Oh yeah, for sure the way that they're setup makes it such that it's near impossible for them to be considered genuinely good units from an efficiency standpoint. Though Fire Emblem efficiency is notoriously poorly defined, this is the case for all of Ironmans (training introduces uncertainty), speedruns (training takes time) and LTCs (both 0% and also 100%, the latter of which I comment on because it removes the Est growths niche, in addition to their late join being an issue when early joiners are inherently favoured as carries)
But yeah, I agree, like Armours, I think they're meant to be there for fun and flavour reasons, which I respect. Hence why I think the only real way to improve them (both Ests and Armours) is to give them some unique utility that only they can provide, the Armour point actually being... something that I mention in a video coming to you soon
Is it really that the community looks at things backwards? Like I'd hazard that most FE content creators or even just people who discuss it in detail online would be on the more experienced side of Fire Emblem players, so is it really a surprise that the conversations tend towards more specific criteria?
i'm going to talk about some units
FE1 Est: the true EST (high growth poor bases). Considering that FE1 enemies aren't super strong, she can get some kills using good weapons (she has 11 weapon level, 1 bellow to use Gradivus)
FE2 Est: Her training arc isn't too harsh to her because of mummies. Gaiden has some forced mummies skirmshes in Lost Woods, so Est can be easily trrained there and become a Falcon Knight, a good class in Celica's rout
FE11 and 12 Est: I put those two together because there is one method that works in both games. Reclass her to cleric and heal a lot. We are talking about Est, so we don't need to LTC, we just need an easy way to train her.
The idea of this training method is healing xp being high in DS games (15 per heal and I think 17 with Mend) and Est growths are high enough that getting worse class growth as Cleric isn't a problem. And you don't need to level up her until 20, level 10 promotion (7 levels) is enough to be good in FE11 and level 15 (10 levels) in FE12 and have similar stats compared to training her only as a Pegasus Knight
Jesse has a good quality that few units have: Res + Lucj. Gaiden and Echoes is a game where magic damage is a bit scary, so having res and luck is good for his training arc until dreadfighter (when base res doesn't matter)
Miranda has growth's modifier to fix her lowest growth (def) and Thracia is a game that unit quality isn't high, so she can get some kills with Fire.
Sophia ... there is some locations to turtle and train her until level 10 and make her a heal bot
Yeah, my understanding is that FE1 Est will probably be easy to train, but also that I probably won't need to because Archanea hucks units at you like there's no tomorrow. FE2 I agree, and I think that Duma Tower in Gaiden does really appreciate you having fliers...
I remember you mentioning the Cleric Est moment before, yeah. Figured that obviously I wouldn't comment on it given that I haven't played either of the DS games thus far, but it's funny that it works out that way
Jesse's Lck is definitely a boon for him over Kamui. Mind, I would add that it's not as big of a factor as it could be, given that at least in Echoes, your Dodge is Lck/2. So I generally find that nearly darn everyone always has a chance of getting crit, and you kinda just have to live with that
Miranda I can't comment on
And lmao I can see the reach for Sophia, I'm not sure that I respect it when Raigh you can just instapromote for the same purpose, but I respect the attempt at least
@@akirasouFE1 Est makes a lot of sense in the context of the game. There are a lot of units in the game, including multiple late game prepromotes. Kaga planned on you letting units die. Having a low base, high growth unit late game is a great way to add unit variety. Est is a great implementation because the draw of her being a flier and narrative of the three sisters/triangle attack.
Statistically, (because you were runninh the numbers with Nino) you can assess your Palla and Catria when you get to Est and if your Palla or Catria is below average, Est becomes a safer replacement. In the context of replaying the game many times and different ways (ironman) these units definitely will have their moment.
Myrrh is the best est. She fits all generally accepted criteria. Unpromoted, low bases, late join time. She really gets the dopamine flowing when you see that experience bar shoot up into a perfect level up. The insane stat bonuses on the dragonstone don't exclude her from est status because she can easily be mauled by a few unpromoted enemies until you get a few levels under her belt. Promoted enemies can ORKO her at base.
But then she transforms into your Gotoh! After a single map training arc Myrrh is ready to be your late game boss killer. She's so good at it that even in difficulty hacks and challenge runs, she puts other units to shame. I don't think any other unit in the game does the zero to hero transformation better than Myrrh. Eat your heart out trainees.
Myrrh is definitely quick to get rolling and ensures that you have a way of dealing with the lategame Sacred Stones bosses, for sure. So if we accept the idea that Ests are real, I can see it, yeah
I think map and enemy design have a big role to play here. If the game makes it realistic for Est archetypes to get kills against low level enemies who are sprinkled in amongst the enemy, then they can become more enjoyable. But they need a source of EXP that high level units don't have access to.
That makes sense, yeah. Mind, already I think that quite a lot of Fire Emblem games have unpromoted enemies around for far too long, which... while they do make for an easy source of experience for an unpromoted Est, also just further means that you don't actually need the higher potential as compared to just mowing them down with your already high level units. So it's a mixed bag there
1:29 "villager archetype" i finally have a way to describe hana
Hana has just been absolutely ratio'd, I'd like you to know that morsode
Honestly I think the best feature of Ests is to give the player something to do. I find that FE runs in general can hit a rut once your main attackers are promoted, you've finished the key skill builds in later games, the team has all joined, essentially once it feels like you have the run "solved" and all that's left is to just finish it. Ests then essentially become a side objective, a reward for going through the extra hassle, something to break up the monotony. So what matters most is that the effort feels like it has a real payoff, even if it would probably be easier to not bother.
That makes sense. I've definitely found that there are some games where this comes to be the case for me, like Part 2 of Three Houses (generally all of the routes, though much less so for Crimson Flower which is part of why it's my favourite route, said as someone who doesn't care at all for Three Houses' plot). I can't say that I understand, since I generally find the process of training further units rather than just beating the map kind of boring personally, but I'd believe it easily. So thanks for sharing your thoughts!
The only est I’ve managed to use to great success is FE11 est, in an iron man run where I lost damn near every unit so I didn’t have much of a choice, ended up promoting her and giving her the gradivus and star sphere for the couple maps you can do that.
Beyond that I’ve had some success with zeiss but as you mentioned it’s debatable if he even counts as an est
Oh interesting! I still haven't found the time to play the DSFE games so I couldn't comment fully. However, I do have friends who really like to turn her into like a Cleric for several levels before switching her back into a combat class proper so that she has a source of free exp, since apparently her growths still kick in hard enough for her stats raised in the wrong class to be alright. Which I find absolutely hilarious
And yeah, Zeiss... I don't know. As I said in the video proper, I'm not sure whether he counts, and then I'm not even sure how useful of a term Est is anyway lol
I wouldn't consider Nino a bad Est so much as Pent is just that hella good. I would say a bad Est would fare worse than several of their contemporaries rather than just the one. And let's be real: If Pent were brought to Radiant Dawn, the game that hates mages, he'd still be pretty damn amazing.
Its not that Nino is a bad Est, its that Pent is way too damn good. Take him out of the picture and she's possibly the best mage in the game (behind Athos who is purposely overpowered.) if raised up. However since Pent isn't going anywhere and you'd have to purposely try to get him killed to lose him (or let Louise die) then she's gonna look that much worse in comparison. Its basically a RD Jill vs Haar situation if you got Jill at the tail end of Part 3
Yeah, maybe my wording was unclear, but I meant more that Ests in FE7 are going to be notably bad, rather than Nino being a bad implementation of an Est. I do agree that looking at equivalent levels ignoring the process of training, Nino has the best stats of the FE7 mages, but it's a big (and in my opinion, unreasonable) assumption that that's what's happening in practice. So even if Pent doesn't exist and you do end up with Priscilla filling the role of Warper fully, I still think that Canas ends up being better than Nino in all because of higher base level, around for longer, and his offenses will do the job for a good chunk of the game where she doesn't exist
This is a separate topic entirely, but I do think that Pent is hyped up too much, and I don't think that he would be performing well in my blind Hard playthrough of Radiant Dawn (currently right before 3-13)
I'm surprised that Farina wasnt on here alongside Nino. Unless she's in a different category just because she costs money to recruit but functionally she is very very similar to est.
Yeah I decided that I was only going to mention people that I actually found within like, the first 5mins of Google searching, and Farina didn't show up there. Unironically, there may be something silly like the "Beowulf archetype" on the pitfalls wiki for a unit that costs you money to recruit...
maria loves being distracted from a video for a minute or two and then hearing shit like "either get a lover or activate a certain event"
Lmaooooo Maria must have been confused, the kind of thing that happens when you space out during a TH-cam video about video games lel
@@akirasou too used to getting distracted during videos to be particularly confused but it was pretty funny uwu
@@topichu970 glad Maria enjoyed that humorous moment then!
Catch me backing out of preps to assign Blossom to Vika in RD part 4, then feeding her every kill on the Oliver map and taking her to the tower.
Most fun I've ever had with pre-tower part 4 tbh.
Funnily enough, I think that someone either here or on the RD vid said that they did this minus Blossom with Vika, and that it was possibly the worst time they had with the game lmao
But if you enjoyed it, you do you! (Also Pre-Tower Part 4 moment, fr fr)
Sara is not an Est and I feel like the only justification I need for this claim is that even in a 0% ltc context she is borderline top tier (only being held back by availability because she dominates almost as soon as she joins) due to her actually solid bases, staff rank and absurd promo gains that are easy to obtain thanks to her being level 7 and having paragon. Some people go as far as to describe her as almost a prepromote. She can seem like an Est when you look at her without really knowing thracia’s environment but in terms of actual performance it simply does not compute
Thanks for your thoughts! Sara I didn't and still can't comment on as I haven't had the time yet to play FE5, but that all makes sense, so I appreciate your input!
having B staff rank to start is wild to me
I have really changed my mind on these kinda units. Im not really a fan of growth units anymore. Having a character who got below average levels feels much worse than it feels good to get above average levels. If anything, getting "too good" levels can at times trivialize the game and ruin it that way. Thats why Im really happy that set level ups as an option is becoming normalized in fire emblem games.
That makes sense, I myself don't like the fact really that growth units can turn out badly, as it means that I just don't view it as being worth the effort to train them up, not least because usually training up "bad" units isn't actually hard, just tedious. And yeah, a game like FE6 for instance I would say very much feels like it's balanced around your units being kinda bad for the most part
And yup, fixed mode is great! I like it a lot in Engage for analytical purposes, and also for GBA hacks that are starting to implement it more widespread, since it also makes potential unit analyses easier to do. It's cool to be able to be like "aight, so at this level I will have these exact stats that I need to do this thing"
@@akirasou There's also the case for that unpredictable level ups can make you improvise on the fly. But for that to truly feel fun without turning the game into a grindsfest, you'd need to heavily favor XP gain (more than currently) to underleveled units heavily until they catch up. Like in games such as Suikoden. But that would change fire emblem so much.
I do very enjoy using Ests... Just not in Fire Emblem. There is a satisfaction in planning my whole team around the fact that I have to leave some work to do for the lategame scrub with great potential, but FE is just not the series for it. As you said here and as I said in the discord, the reward is not guaranteed, it is very possible that my Nino will have less magic than even an already trained Erk, let alone Pent. But alright, I do get the big stats. Then what? The game is basically over because lmao gba FE multiplayer. I'll leave some examples of lategame bad start good end characters from other games that are worth raising.
My favorite example has to be Deino from Pokemon. I would never grind a lv64 pokemon in the Unova main campaign, expecially in the first game since the final boss is at level 54. But that's fine since Unova games have huge postgame content, when I finally get a Hydreigon I have a fast, hard hitting and decently bulky special attacker who will definitely contribuite in beating Alder, Benga, Cynthia, the tornurament trainers and the league rematches. And Hydreigon might not be the truly best Pokemon in the game but it's definitely among them, far above my starter, Stoutland, the elemental monkeys and so on.
Majin from Disgaea 1. I am definitely not getting a Majin in the main story as I have to bring other classes above level 150 (final boss is around lv90), and when I create one it's gonna be at level 1. However they have the best stat AND skill growths in the game, I can build a Majin however I want. Sword user for strong physical attacker, Gun user for a range utility or Staff for magic nuke potential that surpasses even Flonne or the Skull/Witch class, one I can use to crush the side content bosses like Baal, Adell+Rozalin, Zetta and so on. How hard it is to raise a Majin? Disgaea has super easy ways to level up, it's not an issue at all.
Medina from Triangle Strategy. You can get her quite late depending on your conviction points and her stats are terrible. However it is VERY worth upgrading her because she can give TP (what you need to use special moves) to an unit she heals. And she can use 2 AOE heal items in a single turn, making her able to recharge up to 5 units at once, making your army, expecially mages, far more efficient. And TS has two new game plus scalings so even if you get her too late in your first run, you can enjoy her support utility in 2 more playthroughts.
Knight Commander (SPOILER CHARACTER) from Tactics Ogre PSP. As every classes in the game, the unit that is a K.C joins at level 1, which is horrible expecially if you did the route where you don't get them first. However raising them is recommended since K.C has super low RT, which means they can get multiple turns before the enemies, and their stats allow them to solo most of the content in the game. And TO has tons of content so it's worth the hassle. This example is not valid for Reborn as the Knight Commander joins at the highest level of that current cap and it's not as broken as it could have been in PSP.
Last is Nera/Flora from DQ5, A.K.A the better Nino. You do get her fairly late into the game, then bad things happen and you get her again almost at the end, most likely very underlevelled. And DQ5 doesn't exactly bloom with postgame content so this is more of a guilty pleasure character, but she does offer unique utility for a dedicated user. Bianca and the red goat monster learn the ultimate damage spell while an act 3 spoiler mage, a lategame monster with a trident and Liquid Metal Slime (good f***ing luck getting it) learn the ultimate AOE spell. Nera learns both, making her the best mage in the game when trained and a viable choice for the final world, the final dungeon and the postgame dungeon.
All of these guys have a reason to be in your party because even if they lack overall efficiency, they are not just Pent with green hair or Knoll with a worse color scheme and better luck stat. And even if they were just another character but with higher stat, the games I mentioned have content beyond the main story that justifies them being worse than the other party members for a while, making them good "Ests"
"But Maverick, is this comment just you saying that other series do a better job than FE?" Yes.
Yeah, as you said, I completely agree that the problems with Ests are baked into the structure of Fire Emblem as (1) having RNG growths so stat thresholds aren't guaranteed to be met and (2) there's no postgame for the most part. As an addendum to the last point, I would add that even in games that do have a postgame, such as FE8 or Engage, both of them also largely mitigate the leads an Est/Trainee would have anyway, due to infinite statboosters and infinite levelling, respectively
I really appreciate all of the thought that went into your comment! I don't have experience with all of the games in question, but I'll comment on the ones that I do (Pokemon and Tristrat)
Pokemon I think that the Est/Trainee idea works pretty well, as like you've pointed out in the case of Gen 5 and Deino/Hydreigon, there's enough postgame content to warrant the levelling. Like aside from Gen 9 I'd say, there's always been enough that with the core gameplay loop of Pokemon being pretty solid (even if it's repetitive and/or the implementation is boring because Game Freak complacency/incompetence), it'll warrant the training of eventually strong Mons, and Gen 9 is fine as well if you consider competitive play. Before the Exp Share became universal, I did think that Magikarp was a pretty good implementation, since Level 20 wasn't trivial to reach, while also giving you enough time during the main campaign to flex on things with your Gyarados. But, well... now with universal Exp Share being untoggleable, it's a bit too... low effort imo, if that makes sense?
Then with Triangle Strategy, Medina is great. Definitely you can feel the impact of the extra TP for mages, and the different routes of Tristrat does encourage the player to do NG+, meaning that they can hopefully experience her full levelled utility (whereas yeah, like you said, before the levelling process, she looks. Pretty ass)
I hope that you feel this was a considered response to your comment! I appreciate your continued viewership a lot in general and can see the amount of effort put into this comment as well, so I'd like for you to feel your thoughts have been responded to :>
@@akirasou
First of all I am glad you actually enjoy my walls of text! I did in fact think for a couple of minutes about which character/unit could be considered similiar to the Est archtype, while I had other examples in mind I then realized that they were either decently strong late joiners or weak early/mid game joiners, so they wouldn't have been accurate.
I definitely forgot about FE8's postgame but I don't think even Super Amelia (swordmaster with lances) and Super Ewan (Every mage type) are worth the effort. As for Engage, I do not think there is a true Est. And even if Rosado is one, he is not worth since I can just solo the lv50 towers with Ike!Axe General Jade/Mauvier because of their good res. Yes I did that and I can imagine VanWrath Panette (or even Lindon for the memes) can invalidate the postgame as well with enough attack boosting items
@@maverick5169 yeah the Super Trainees are a huge meme, so definitely not worth. Engage I agree there isn't really an Est because Parthia for experience training and also the Emblems are most of the unit honestly with few exceptions... so Rosado I didn't really think was worth discussing in any detail lol
Nice vid! :D
Thanks, happy to hear that you liked it :>
Personally, one of my favorite Est-like units is FE5's Eda. She joins midway through the game as a level 5 unpromoted Wyvern with mediocre bases and growths alongside her brother, a promoted Wyvern who outclasses her in every posssible way, in a chapter where she's completely zoned out from doing practically anything by ballistae. Many players write her off as a complete liability due to how much she's outclassed by her brother, but flying utility is such a rare and important niche in Thracia that I always find myself deploying her just for a third flier. Additionally, FE5 enemies are generally weak enough that she can sneak in combat every now and then to train without much hassle. A unit joining in chapter 14 out of 25 may not be able to fit the Est criteria, but at the same time I feel that her out-of-the-box utility is enough to bump her out of being a Trainee as well.
Interesting... I haven't finished playing Thracia yet (I've been at Chapter 5 for maybe a month now due to having looked at the far off Chest and being like... not now), but yeah, my understanding is that FE5 enemies are not all that. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
Tbh I still find Eda super underwhelming. Its rare that you'll be able to fly in and grab a village with her without running into some kind of trouble with enemies. Also, her low Con stat means her movement gets halved when rescuing most units.
Dean is so far superior to her that, alongside the disgusting prominence of ballistas, there is simply to reason for me to invest in her. Dean even has better FCM, which iirc can NEVER be increased.
Tldr;
Dean gud, Eda meh.
20:28 this video is innacurate in some areas first off Est with the Starsphere caps all stats but defense which is off by 1 from capping she has 100 in all growths but defense and luck which got changed to be 60 when it was 70 another thing is Zeiss is bad unless on hard mode which you point out he just benefits from hard mode the same as someone like Rutger now Nino not having staff rank unlike pent is a fair argument however the con system shouldn't come into play because all male units always have better con look at if they had the same con yes pent is better because of staff utility which should be the primary focus in the comparison
Thanks for the comment and for your thoughts! Re the points you've made:
1. Yes, but the point was that Palla and Catria in Book 2 (and really, whatever units you've wanted to use em on up to that point) have already been able to benefit from specific Star Shards that benefit specific key stats for such a long time that it renders Est's own high growths moot as a benefit
2. I already pointed out Zeiss' Hard Mode bonuses, so I don't really have anything else to say
3. So I agree that Staff rank and therefore utility is the most important thing. However, considering that Nino already doesn't have it and that therefore all she's doing is combat, I think that it's worth mentioning given that combat is the thing that would get mentioned in her favour
I'm not sure Sophia should even be considered an Est. She's just so egregiously bad in most metrics, that her potential isn't even high. She may fit in other metrics, but the fact that she's not even good when you train her should disqualify her from being an Est.
Yeah, that's completely fair. It's a sad, sad day to be Sophia...
There are only a few units i would consider an est. For me an est has to join atleast semi late and have good enough stats to be worth training. As such my only ests are est in any game shes in, nino, delthea, and zeiss. Any other unit is either promoted with stats that can meaningfully contribute like rosado and elincias staff while others dont have a good enough pay off. Cyril doesn't hvae as good growths as the game makes you think because of how aptitude essentially makes his growths on par with others, where hes good is combat arts specifically vengeance and point blank volly. Others like jesse just dont have a good enough pay off for me to personally consider them an est
That makes sense, thanks for sharing your thoughts! It's definitely true that Cyril doesn't have such markedly better growths than other units, especially the Lords, but he does still have a high growth total with Aptitude factored in, and I do feel like there was definitely a period of time during which people penalised him for having Aptitude as opposed to some other Personal Ability when realistically some Personal Abilities already do nothing. But yeah, of the examples that were explored online, Jesse for sure I don't think warrants the payoff for investment at all
Wouldn’t really add low bases to them since they’re usually pretty normal stats if you got them earlier in the game and is only low in that point of the game because of the low level.
How is Rosado an Est if he comes as a pre-promoted unit (Wyvern Knight)?
Yeah, I don't think of him as an Est either (for multiple reasons...), which is why I didn't talk about him in the video. Like I said, I was going off of potential Ests I found suggested online. But I imagine the reasoning behind Rosado is not great bases, flier, good growths
Came in expecting Ewan slander, kinda left without it?
Either way ests are always my fav lol
Oh if you want Ewan slander, then you can watch my side of rebalancing the FE8 promotion options lol. For real though, I don't think that Ewan counts as an Est for the reasons stated in the video. Which, well, just because I think a unit isn't good, doesn't mean that I won't use them
If you use Alfa Drops on Nino and grind him it will be an endgame mag unit
And my Zeiss had 22 defense when this promote
So I agree that if trained, Nino can end up with really high Mag numbers. That wasn't really what I was saying though, I was saying that Pent has a real chance of still outclassing a trained Nino in combat parameter stats, let alone additional things like staff utility that tends to get brought up more in comparative unit viability discussions
Another est people call good is sara from fe5 for simple reason she starts with B in staffs and can easily get to A rank just by giving her 3 lvls and promotion meanwhile getting the insane stat gains from the sage promotion.
never thought of zeiss as an est and i havent played fe6 hard. flying utility is just really nice in that game
The flying utility in FE6 is definitely real for sure. But yeah, Zeiss is a weird example where he's arguably just a better unit on Hard Mode despite the enemies also being stronger on Hard Mode. Ignore the fact that it's because he's originally an enemy lol
8:30 I'd watch a series that goes over CDFs and distributions using fire emblem
I don't think anyone's ever done that, gaming stats.
I do like stats, but frankly, I don't know what I'd have to say about it other than binomials being used for growths and unit comparison purposes unless I went into Low Turn Count/Expected Turn Count calculations, which I think are a bit... too niche
If you have any ideas though, I'm all ears!!
I think by design Est cannot contribute as much in the lategame as Jagen can in the early game, and that's okay. They don't need to be top-tier to have a fanbase.
Some ideas I've seen to fix Est is giving them Paragon. Also, one of the reasons I want BEXP back is that they would allow Est to be trained more painlessly.
Yep, I agree!
Paragon I think could definitely make them less of a pain to train. BExp is... I have complicated feelings on BExp, that I may eventually make a video on. Basically I agree that it would make the training process less painful, but I do also think that if you're going to use a unit, you should have to actually train them yourself, if that makes sense?
Ests can be a nice excuse to continue training up a unit, especially since the latter part of the game is when you will have most or all of your units already promoted and self sufficient.
Yeah that makes sense! It is always fun to see number go up
I'm all for picking apart the archetypes, and honestly the Est archetype is vague and unhelpful.
Miranda is a much stronger archetype if we're talking consistency - a late-joining, low level and unpromoted mage, usually young or young-looking and usually a girl, often with a mysterious origin or a connection to an enemy party.
By following this archetype more closely we can fit in:
Delthea
Tailtiu & Tine
Miranda
Sophia
Nino
Ewan
Tormod
Pelleas
What defines "late" for Awakening and Fates when paralogues can be played at basically any time?
CF out-of-house Lysithea
Veyle
If we include staffers we muddy the pool too much IMO because that then includes:
Elice
FE3 B2 endgame clerics, technically
Coirpre/Sharlow
Sara
L'arachel but still less than halfway through the game
FE9 Elincia?
Revelations Azama?
Hortensia?
And the connections just keep getting weaker from there.
Now if we isolate Est, her most notable traits are being a flier, 3rd in a set of pegasus knights, enabler of triangle attacks and (subjectively) considered the weakest of the three.
So "Real" Ests would include:
Est
Juno
Farina
Syrene
Elincia
Any of Tanith, Sigrun or Marcia because fe10 is weird
And that's it because triangles don't exist after 2007.
As a fellow FEtuber and person who's skeptical about many archetypes that are purported to exist, I'm happy to hear that you feel the same way!
Unfortunately, at this time, I'm not really able to comment fully on the Miranda moment, since I haven't gotten past 4x in Thracia for quite some time. Still, I agree with the list of Ests in terms of pegasi moments, and thank you for your viewership and thoughts!
idk why but i wish fixed mode existed in Fates as i keep doing challenge runs in it, but having to reset runs for the early game is pain
Ripppppppppp that does sound like pain. If you're emulating, I know that you can fiddle with the stats in FEFTwiddler, but if you're playing on 3DS, that does sound painful :
@@akirasou modded 3ds
@@alexisdipoalo9443 ripppppppppppppp
My thoughts on this is rather limited, but starting with Sophia, she's just plain not an Est at all. The 4 most typical and important traits of an Est are low level, relatively late joining, high growths all around, AND _serviceable_ stats rather than low stats for their join time (this last one is the part where many seem to get the archetype wrong, or confused with Trainees). Sophia lacks the 2 most direct traits that matter, and those are solid bases for her to even be able to engage in combat without it being overly frustrating, and her growths are... average at BEST for her own class, which is the biggest failing. Sophia is, therefore, just a pretty bad later-joining unit who is pretty, because her combat will almost never excel over her magical peers in any way, and she'll struggle to do well in what combat she does need at all when her base stats are just so awful.
The original Est, while likely _weaker_ than the rest of your army once she starts, actually has competent stats to handle the enemies she can go up against, at least enough to not die quickly 1 on 1 against them. Yes, it'll be a slow start, but her growths should eventually bring her up to par, and then some. This applies to Nino as well; The issue being that her formal starting stage is innately frustrating to traverse due to FOW and on a timer, both which are bad for even promoted units to train well in, so that's not even a Nino issue. The Gaiden chapter afterwards provides Nino with many enemies that she CAN hit and kill without missing too often due to her stats compared to the majority of the enemy forces, and her starting rank in magic allows her to wield Thunder and Elfire to handle the weaker mooks fairly well, and even put a dent on the stronger ones... Problem is THAT stage is also frustrating with its moving floors gimmick; Again, not a Nino issue, that's a stage design issue. As for the presence of Pent, I feel many FE players feel they need to have a quota or something to decide if a unit is good or bad. Sages are solid and well-rounded magic users due to Anima being potent and flexible in GBA, and D rank staves means they can pull their weight in utility readily enough... So what's the harm in having one strong Sage in Pent, one really strong Sage in Nino, AND Athos for the endgame? It's not like she's Erk, who just plain sucks compared to all three of them.
But yeah, competent bases is the part I feel many forget is what makes for a formal Est; It was built into the original, yet somehow it gets overlooked and overcomplicated in later units being examined. I got my liking of the SS Trainees, but I will be the first to tell people they aren't Ests, since they are meant to work on a sort of threshold overcome with their promotions to make them above average, rather than rely on their growths to that end. Especially if for whatever reason, people are refusing to make use of Valni, or even the field skirmishes between chapters and Creature Campaign.
So I agree that Est the original has competent enough stats, which I recall being something that was discussed in a very rare Reddit Fire Emblem post that I read some time ago, and also that Nino's bases themselves are good for their level. "Format Est" I can't really agree or disagree with, as the broadly used definition seems to be bad bases for jointime, which is the case for them both I feel, as your already existing units should have better stats than them both. It's true though that competent stats can also still be relatively bad bases compared to the rest of your army as of the time of joining
I also agree that unit choice based on strength shouldn't be done on a class by class basis. I actually think that this attitude has become more widespread generally compared to the typical RPG "branch out" tendency, largely because of Mekkah's contributions to the FE community. In particular, I think it's responsible for the general recommendation to often use a lot of your high Mov units in the form of your Cavs and Fliers in GBA even if it's just for Rescue/Dropping rather than for combat proper
However, where I disagree is the idea that there's value in having all of Pent, Nino and Athos for endgame. Especially in Hector Hard Mode, where there are seven deployment slots that you can actually choose for Light, and there are also relatively low deployment slots beforehand, I'm not going to train Nino over my other units, let alone bring her there. This isn't helped by the fact that the FE7 named character morphs have like. Weirdly high Res, in a true FE7 moment. Personally would rather bring along a utility unit like Louise as a Pent support bot
@@akirasou Thank you for taking the time. I get that Archetypes are subject to changes over time with enough trends being set, I just felt some of it comes from conflicting standards set by the _fans,_ rather than what the games actually present to people on their own.
And yes, weirdly enough, I had some of my most... shall we say jarring arguments, with people that seemed to take Mekkah a bit too much to heart, so I think I know first-hand what you mean by how certain ideas have been cemented into the community, for better or worse. Though I should probably hop on Dani's video on Trainees too, I keep forgetting to watch and listen. See if there's anything I could contribute to the matter there.
As for the matter of not having both Nino and Pent by endgame? Understandable. The only thing I would contest about it on why I brought it up at all is that both of them are excellent at taking on the mooks despite the high Res when they can hit pretty hard and accurately with magic anyway, even if to just setup a kill for the others when most of the morphs have exploitable attack ranges as is (and not get torn apart by the ones that use magic too with their own high Res).
They could freely exchange Excalibur between them and attack with it once gotten, and I feel it hits pretty hard enough despite not being a legendary weapon (at least not with how FE7 has it work), which will help clear the field up between them with more flexibility than most could muster. I would also like to think there's enough slots for Nino to come in with a support partner of her own. If nothing else, Jaffar for example could realistically have a decent chance to Silencer some the enemies not named Dragon, while Nino just plain hits extra hard too... But I completely understand there's value in just sticking with consistent low investment units that don't demand more than fundamentals to make use of, rather than extensive training tricks and tips.
@@MrMarket1987 that's fair. For what it's worth, I do feel like that precedent does kind of rightly come from the outright subpar stats by later units that people categorise as Ests. But also like I said, I don't really think that Ests are a true archetype anyway by now with how... inconsistent everything is
Yeah, I definitely do think that there are some good things that have come out of those discussions. But there are some things that I disagree with, and I do wonder if people would necessarily come to the same conclusions now as they did back then
Also fair. I will admit that for the most part, I consider GBAFE supports to be a meme in terms of unlocking them, so basically the only A Support in FE7 that I ever assume will exist is the Pent/Louise one. Part of my personal dislike of using Ests is that I don't find the process of training units all that interesting, because it's not really hard, it's just. Time/turn-consuming
And in a game that has really strong experience-gaining tools like Engage with Mercurius and Parthia etc, if the process is really that easy, is the unit really an Est in the first place? Engage is a whole other can of worms though with how strong the Emblems are, with it being more like your unit is attached to an Emblem than vice versa... so I'll stop rambling here
@@akirasou Aye. There's only so much you can do in terms of consistency when the standards set by the fandom often turn into a game of Telephone; Hence why I TRY to take the game and stats as they are into account, rather than how veterans/pros might go about it. You don't always get the Christmas/Red Oni & Blue Oni Cavaliers, but if there IS a pattern somewhere, it _should_ help to understand and summarize what to expect from them, and Ests, which I believe another commenter highlighted.
I'll throw you a bone about Engage though. Rosado can be whatever he wants to be, that gallant gorgeous knight makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside no matter what. :V
you forgot to mention that FE7 HHM has like no deployment slots
Implied when I said "limited deployment slots," but you're definitely right that I wasn't as explicit about it as I could have been, thanks!
Making Faye anything other than a healer is making your run less consistent. So I would not use the example of Faye being a possible Mage to take anything away from Deltheas utility in Echoes. It would be like bringing up other S ranks for Chrom other than Sully or other S ranks for Fredrick other than Sumia. The statistics of the pair-up perfectly fills in the weakness of the character. Particularly if you go Falchon Knight for Sumia and Palladin for Sully. This also gives you an extra healer with Sumia which can carry a player across harder to traverse terrain like deserts. Due to the +1 to movement from the pair-up this would also improve low turn count runs since you are not slowing down for training at all to go Cavalier Sully or Pegasus Knight Sumia. Trsinimg these two units would just be more of a more consistent general run. A more consistent general run strategy is used for Challenge Runs including Ironman or just regular gameplay where you are looking for a strategy which results in less deaths.
Apologies for the slow response, been busy with stuff but I finally have some time to respond to comments!
So I agree that if you're trying to optimise even slightly in Echoes, making Faye a Cleric rather than a Mage (or anything else...) is a no-brainer. What I will say is that I wasn't necessarily talking about an optimised context - we're talking about Ests here, so I think that was rather clear from the outset. Plus it is possible to do things with Mage Faye, so it does still hold some merit as an individual option, though as you said, it's less consistent than making her a Cleric
Awakening I once again can't comment on in any meaningful depth, really, having only played it once relatively early into starting playing Fire Emblem, and only on Hard. So if you're looking to a response to that (much longer) part of your comment, I'm afraid that I'm not qualified to actually do so. Still, I appreciate the thought put into writing the comment, so thanks!
Seth is my favourite Est
I can't like Seth, he can never kill anything.
Nah Seth is clearly a trainee, because he joins so early on in the game!
Sorry, cofused him with Seteth
@@LunarBoo gotcha. I'm curious, do you really think of Seteth as an Est, or am I getting wooshed right now lol
No lol
he joins pretty mich ready to go and all he wants is A Lances and a free ticket to Wyvern Lord
I think the only Est that "works" is Nino, you can tactically train her a lot and use her to solo the last 3 maps. She is "marginally better than Pent", has magical 1-2 range, which kill everything, good resistance to status staves and very good avoid to do that sort of thing.
Other Ests just doesn't do that. The original Est suffers from caps and lack of good 1-2, and her bad stats (HP, Defense) actually makes her worse than some of the good units. Other Ests either doesn't have a way to break the game due to mechanics or are not true Ests.
yeah training afa's drops nino is always a highlight of my fe7 playthroughs and in that game, late-game enemies are so weak that i find it's really not that hard to train her up and get her rolling. it's a fun challenge that gives the game some spice!
I don't agree, but I respect it. It's at least partly because FE7 bosses in particular have the strange thing where a bunch of them just have a ton of Res. Still, I can intellectually understand why someone would enjoy playing the maps that way, so I can't discount it
And yeah, while I haven't finished FE1, FE3 Book 2 Est definitely had her moments of joining like. 20 HP under her sisters (since they'd gotten to use a bunch of Star Shards, which happened to increase their HP bulk by a lot). There's a reason why for the Valentia Est, the class bases in terms of HP and Def is relevant lol
Interesting though, what do you consider to be a "true Est"?
@@akirasou Not true Ests as in units who fits the join late, bad bases, good growth description but not having potential due to bad game mechanics or hostile game design, i.e Tailtyu or Kurth.
@@mintx1720 gotcha - thanks for the response, and I look forward to seeing that implementation in full in my ongoing first RD playthrough!
The problem with Ests is that they're not real so they can't lend me their estrogen
Ests not real confirmed????? Have to respect the reasoning, truly impeccable
In FE6, Yuuno(the third/last Pegasus Sister) is unprompted at normal but is a Falcon Knight in Hard Mode at lv9 and that is interesting bcz I decided to train the second Sister(Tiet/Tate) in this run bcz I wanted her to support Klein.
Tate was a Lv10 FlcKnight and had better stats than Yuuno by not a hole lot but very perceptive, which is odd to be true, Yunno doesn't even have a cap stat and Tate had her Speed and Skill capped at this point while Yuuno had a bad time and worst than that... Her supports are not good... She can only relate with bad units to be true... Noah,Treck, her sisters which is not a good balance to be true... and sadly Zealot which died many chapters ago and I feel so horrible since he was alive in my first run and the game do not tells you that to access the gaiden chapter, you need both Zealot and Yuuno alive and I have a guide that tells you that you NEED ONLY YUUNO ALIVE... I wanted to die right now.... Binding Blade is bad at many things but this was very VERY overwhelming... Since you lose the MALTET, the best Lance for your multiple Lance users in the game...
Anyway...
I would consider YUUNO to be an Est for normal mode only, a bad unit that is almost the same boat as Fir and Geeze....
Uh I am pretty sure that she isn't unpromoted in Normal Mode, and that she always joins as a Level 9 Falco. A late-joining (fits an Est) Level 9 Falco (so not low level, so doesn't fit) with low bases (fits) and low growths (doesn't fit). So I would disagree that she counts as an Est if we're saying that Ests exist
Also rip, that sounds painful lol. Binding Blade living requirements can be something though, but hey... it means that you didn't have to play an FE6 Gaiden map, which is always a good thing
Honestly i feel Ests can be fixed, even from an efficent standpoint, by doing 1 simple thing.
Just have endgame/postgame "secret dungeons" and "superbosses" that demand stats as high as it's attainable in the game, the way other JRPG does. And make those fun enought the comunity want to include them in plautroughs(i rrally hate how Echoes tiering don't include Thebas).
I have to admit, I'm not sure how much that'll "fix" the issue, since uh. I'm definitely someone who once the credits roll, is like, "cool, the game is over now, let's move onto the next one"
Plus... having recently "played" (the AI did it for me) through Creature Campaign in FE8 for the first time, I feel like the infinite statboosters downplay that point a lot. It's kinda mirrored in my understanding of the Engage postgame grind, where because character caps are so similar, you really can just use whoever you want to. Which is. Obviously fine, but doesn't really fix Ests I don't think?
@@akirasou it does if infinite boosters aren't a thing and you have to rely on "natural" stats, making growths and 20/20 averages far more relevants than they normally are. Especially assuming Fixed Mode is here to stay.
But even if they are a thing, spending turns on Ests training arcs may be faster than spending turns grinding for boosters. I am still considering efficiency as a metric. Just expanding it "what is the most efficent way to defeat the superboss in the least amount of turns?" Or you coukd just give the Est higher caps across the board i guess.
My point is mostly based on the considerstion that Magickarp character are far more respected in games where the engame is significantly harder than the midgame, wich is never the case in FE and very commonly the case in games with secret dungeons and superbosses.
my definition of a "good est" is someone who makes you want to drop everything and turn this pathetic excuse of a unit into a god (for the ludonarrative, personal challenge, etc). not playing optimally is unfortunately very fun
I respect it, who satisfies that condition for you? And yeah, optimal play isn't necessarily gonna be the goal, like it's a videogame, so imo the only right way to play is a way in which you're (in some sense) deriving fun or meaning from it
My favorite est is leif :).
Leif is a really fun unit to raise up and use for mounted Rescue in FE4, yeah! Dani's video on trainees expands on him more, so if you're interested in the topic and haven't watched the vid already, I would highly recommend it!
@@akirasou oh yeah I didn’t mean that as a joke. I love training leif because of the potential investment cost (ethlyn leaving in chapter 3) and the benefits(promoted leif goes brr)
@@tellierbop I didn't think you were joking...? But yeah, the training of Ethlyn, especially if you decide to have her leave with the Pursuit Ring and a Light Brand with as many kills on it as possible for instance, does definitely mean that it's not a trivial investment for him even before the fact
@@akirasou I meat I was half joking. I do think leif is my favorite high growth unit but I don’t think he’s an est at all.
Honestly, I think Nino is one of the few "good" Ests. She has a fair number of chapters to grow, especially if you're playing Hector mode and do gaiden chapters, and her growths are ACTUALLY GOOD. She's overshadowed by Pent, sure, but that's not because Nino is bad, it's more because Pent is insanely GOOD. And I don't think there's really any reason you should only be allowed one Sage, anyway.
Overall though, I love the Est archetype. They're often a fun challenge to train up and seeing them destroy enemies in the final chapter is a big hit of serotonin for me. I just wish they were a bit more justifiable to use, because as it stands right now, they're really not worth it from a gameplay standpoint.
Hmm I've gotten this comment a few times, so I think maybe I worded myself badly: it's not that I think Nino is a bad implementation of an Est, but rather that I think the context of FE7 means that it's difficult to call her a comparatively good unit, if that makes sense? Like Hector Hard Mode deployment limits are real, physical combat units still hit hard and survive more rounds of combat if they get hit, and the prepromote quality is so high. Like the issue isn't that you should only have one Sage as a tenet, it's more that the prepromote brigade and lack of Warp until hella late means that you don't need more than one staffer/magical unit
Regardless, makes sense to enjoy the Est archetype, so I'm glad that those kinds of units exist for you to enjoy using! These do be videogames, so we love the serotonin boost
@@akirasou Makes sense. Honestly I tend to ignore the Hector Hard Mode deploy limit since I don't personally play on it, but I can see why it'd de-incentivize using Nino for people who do play on that difficulty
@@juicyjuustar121 makes sense on your part as well, yeah. Thanks for hearing me out, and contributing your own perspective!!
People don't like Ests because they are an inconvience, and people don't like inconviences, because it's more efficient to just spam your powerful attacks with your OP badasses every Fire Emblem game hands you, becayse efficency is the be all and end all of everything.
By the way, I'm being sarcastic.
Lmfao sarcasm note appreciated, because this does feel like the kind of thing people would actually say
Also nice username, fellow Shiren the Wanderer fan?!
@@akirasouYes
@@shirrenthewanderer414 poggggggg, I've only really been able to play the Switch port of the fifth one in any meaningful depth, but I've had a lot of fun with it!
Haven't watched but ests are beautiful and perfect, disliked and unsubbed
Now that I watched the video:
I especially like using Ests, moreso than most trainees. The most common examples of Ests are cute which helps, but I also find it fun to take a unit that joins so weak that they die in one round of combat, and turning them into powerful combat units through grinding kills for them. For these reasons, I actually prefer units like Est and Nino to ones like Elincia or Cyril, who join basically able to do SOMETHING.
Priestess nooooooooooooooooo, what ever will I do without your Mathilda CG torture
For real though, I respect it. Like I don't personally enjoy the process of training units that I don't view as adding guaranteed value to my team, which is why I prefer Elincia and Silver Snow Cyril as Ests. But definitely for someone who enjoys that training and raising process, it makes sense that if a unit joins already being able to do things without that process, they'd be less appealing than someone you do have to put through that process
I'd never thought of it that way before, so thanks for watching and commenting with your perspective! I appreciate it a lot
Ests suck. Their just less interesting child units.
A child unit you start to build from the very beginning of the game such as Avatar children trough their parents. Then you get to harvest your bounty in the late game by creating an extremely broken unit for your efforts.