Electrical Failure Leads to 727 Crash in Pacific Ocean - Episode 223
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 พ.ค. 2024
- The crew of a United Airlines 727 tried to turn back shortly after takeoff from Los Angeles, but did not make it back to the airport. The plane crashed into the Pacific Ocean.
Greg Feith, Todd Curtis, and John Goglia discuss the crash of the 727-22QC in 1969. Electrical failures and electrical system design contributed to the plane crash. The accident happened on a night with limited visibility due to the weather.
The aircraft had three electrical generators, but only two were working. Shortly after takeoff, the crew shut down one engine due to a fire warning. That move shut down one of the two working generators.
John discusses the complexities of 727 electrical systems and other aircraft of the era. The NTSB found that total power loss occurred after all the electrical loads were placed on the one remaining generator.
Related Document: NTSB Accident Report NTSB-AAR-70-6, UAL_N7434U_727_1969-01-18_AAR7006.pdf
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Music: “Inspirational Sports” license ASLC-22B89B29-052322DDB8
Greg Fife is an absolute legend. I'm sure the other guy are too. I just remember Greg Fife from Air Crash Investigation.
* Feith
Greg's back. Yay! 😁
Glad to see Greg on the show again. I enjoyed Miles’ contribution, holding the fort until Greg’s return. An episode with all 4 would be perfect.
Keep up the good work, guys.
This could be a good study in what really changed in the MEL. The largest electrical load on a 727 is the galley (ovens and coffee makers), second in the PAC fans which automatically shut off when the flaps are up while flying, third the landing lights. One generator cannot handle all this load. Also, there is a saying in 727 FE training that the only thing that is automatic in a 727 in the FE's right thumb and index finger. To my knowledge the APU cannot be run in flight no matter if you have an exhaust door or louvers. The APU was an afterthought in the 727 and is sandwiched into both main wheel wells. If run it will set off the APU fire warning shortly after the gear is raised. I have forgot so much about the 727 over the years and was brought into modern airliners via the DC-8, A-300, 747, 757,767 and 777. Was on and off the 727 from 1978 to 1998 as a mechanic, inspector, FE and pilot.
I was a line mechanic on 727's for 27 years, a great reliable airplane. The pilots loved it, especially with the -17's and Valsan engines. Working on that APU stuffed in between the wheels was a pain in the ass.
I’ve been flying for over half a century, accumulating roughly 3000 hours, all single engine. For the first time in the 20 years I’ve owned her, I had an electrical failure in my 63 P172D just last week. It was in good VFR weather, so that wasn’t an issue, but what surprised me was how distracting it was! Had I been in the soup or even going somewhere on a flight plan, it would have been much more serious.
Eventually I tracked it to the landing light circuit-I tend to fly with the wigwags on whenever I’m near any airport-and shutting off both the main landing light switch and the wigwag switch temporarily solved the problem until my mechanic can determine the actual cause. From the symptoms I provided, he thinks it’s one of the ballasts in the HID lights, but we’ll find out more in the next couple of days.
While my airplane’s electrical system is incredibly simple by comparison to any airliner’s, the results of a malfunction are just as meaningful. Reading between the lines of your discussion, it’s not just the failure of the equipment or perhaps the inexperience of the flight engineer, but the overall confusion and distraction in the cockpit when things go awry that contributed to the disaster. Or in modern terms, the “why’s it doing that?” syndrome, which is very likely to happen in today’s TAA GA cockpits. We always have to remember to fly the airplane.
I as well love John Goglia!
Just happened to find this nugget of a channel! Can't believe it's been running for 4 years and it's never popped up in my suggestions!
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I'm only 20minutes in and already I'm really enjoying all of your insights into this accident. The content is great 🙂 My only piece of constructive feedback from all the episodes from yourselves so far would be the fact that as you guys are talking over Teams/ Zoom or whatever your using is you can see there's a slight delay when your talking to each other and sometimes the individual video streams pixilate which is a bit annoying. But a small price to pay for the unique insights from these aviation legends 😊
I absolutely love the aviation world and was lucky enough to work on various air ambulances. I previously started getting my private pilots license (with the dream of going commercial) but the flying school I was at went bankrupt and flying is unbelievable expensive here in Scotland at the beat of times never mind losing blocks of flying time you paid for😅 . Sorry random rant. Thanks so much for the content folks keep it coming 🙂
First time finding this channel. Subscribed.
Hi guys! As a Swede, I know the SAS flight 933 was overseen by the ICAO but the NTSB did the investigation on behalf of the Norwegians. Norways investigation board were ofcourse present. Hope this helps!
EDIT: checked my archive and the 933 accident report is AAR70-14!
Thanks for the information!
Thank you for an interesting show. First time here and subbed.
A late police officer friend of mine responded to both of these ocean crashes in a small Redondo Beach Police Boat, along with L.A. County Lifeguards out of Redondo and Marina Del Rey. He said that they had to go beyond the crash to find it, as the only lighting was the lights on the shore that it backlit the wreckage, making it visible. Unfortunately, he did not find any survivors.
A 1971 plane crash in Lake Champlain plane was found recently.
These are way better than the History or Discovery Channel Air Disasters or Mayday shows
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Happy to see Greg back, sadly without his usual posh bowtie!
I'm just happy he's back. No matter what he wears. I think he only dresses up when he's being interviewed. But when he's on his own podcast, he lets loose. He don't care if people sees him in his unusual ties or in his T-shirt. He's doing the damn thing.😅 I ❤ it though.
@@katrinarucker2326 I get what you mean 🙂 I'm just a fan of Greg's swagger XD XD
Great suggestion from one of your listeners. I wonder how many aircraft are off the coast near LA.
It's amazing. You need an F/E on a 727 but not a B-52; which has eight engines.
I’m guessing that the most common aircraft still in service that has a flight engineer is the A300B4 (before the 600).
Sounds like the battery switch was off. No light to indicate on or off. Memory item with loss of all electric “battery switch on check essential.”
Brand new hires start out on the f/e panel.
APU was never authorized to be used in flight.
( Retired airline capt wit over 23.000 hours stick time in the 727.)
John has some great aviation books.
Was the electrical systems information recorded in flight data recorder?
Current time and date is May 29,2024 at 8:57 am. my question would be.i have difficulty in understanding why the PSA 727 that had a mid air collision with a Cessna was not able to stay in the air or at least be able to allow the pilot to steer it away from populated area.from the last known picture of the 827,the wing was still intact.can you shed some light on this issue. thank you.
The right wing stalled:(the wing of collision) because the leading edge slats retracted due to hydraulic failure.
I was an F/E on the B727 many years ago. The Most difficult rating I ever obtained. Question? Did the MEL require the APU generator to be on line if one engine generator was placarded INOP?
I don’t remember 👨✈️
I was a FE on the 72 as well. To my knowledge the APU was not approved for use in flight. Remember 9 light trip. CHECK ESSENTIAL DOWN LOAD COVER THE BUS. Essential was normally parked on # 3 in this case #3 Gen was inop. So essential would have been on #2 Gen. The NTSB report I read said that with the loss of all gens essential was on for 15 seconds then off, so if the second started to run his check list essential is on #2 down load first item would n be galley power, then windshield heat, the report I read stated that galley power switch and battery switch were next to each other, the NTSB indicated that in all likelihood the second turned the battery switch off instead of galley power hence the total black airplane. No essential flight instruments off the battery. The recommendation by the NTSB was to make the battery master a guarded switch, to preclude inadvertently turning the master switch and along with that move the galley switch to a different location. If I was a betting man I’d bet following this accident the FAA issued an emergency AD note with a mandatory installation of the guard for the battery switch, simple fix for that. Like you it’s been years ago since I was on the panel.
Worst problem I experienced as a second was loss of A system hydraulic fluid. We were number 3 for the approach, weather was right at minimums, first two missed we configured to flaps 1 that’s when we puked the A system fluid. I thought it was a slat actuator. We did the manual gear extension and landed. When we got to the gate I ran down to see where the leak was, skydrol was pouring out of the tail, cause of leak RUDDER LOAD LIMITER. This was a perfect setting for a sim check ride but it was real time. What was your worst problem? I retired off the 757/767 20 years ago.
@@davevictoriadriskell2111 Correct. In fact the APU would catch on fire if operated in flight. On the -200 it would not operate in flight.
Did the 727 have a drop down wind driven generator?
No. At least not in any 727s I'm familiar with.
None of them had RAT.
"Can you guys do an expose on UAL Flight 736."
glad that piece of 'work' miles isn't on the show, decided to stick around.
What's wrong with Miles? I thought he was great.
I’m not a pilot so please excuse my ignorance…I understand it was at night in marginal weather; Yet, how does a pilot, in this case a very experienced 727 Captain, lose spatial awareness ? @22:30 Why wouldn’t he be relying on the backup (mechanical) Artificial Horizon or having the battery switch set to ‘OFF’. From what they’ve discussed there wasn’t even a redundant backup Artificial Horizon on those aircraft ?
Theory appears to be that they could not see it. They allegedly had no power at all.
These modern planes are 100% electric powered now days.
I remember the NINE light TRIP. Galley power must go FIRST👨✈️
Can’t any of you men afford a real green screen or curtain to put behind you?
Software can’t correctly replace your background.
Really? No comment as to the quality of content but instead you question their choice of not using a green screen background. Ridiculous.
You might prefer the audio version of the podcast.
I was an F/E on the B727 many years ago. The Most difficult rating I ever obtained. Question? Did the MEL require the APU generator to be on line if one engine generator was placarded INOP?
I don’t remember 👨✈️
To add to your confusion, can the apu even be run in flight on this model based on what the guys were taking about regarding an apt door vs grill.
Almost every Apu came in cold soaked and wouldn't start on the ground so I doubt you could start it in flight if you wanted to.
"The Most difficult rating I ever obtained. " But remember, almost all of us had to have passed the FE written in order to even get an interview!