Omniscience Paradox Debunked
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 ส.ค. 2024
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This video debunks a pretty bad objection to theism, the omniscience paradox.
Sources:
The Guide for the Perplexed - Moses Maimonides
City of God - St. Augustine
Philosophical Foundations for a Christian Worldview - JP Moreland, William Lane Craig
The Coherence of Theism - Richard Swinburne
The Non-existence of God - Nicholas Everitt
Every two weeks we're blessed with InspiringPhriday
lol. comforting lies.
So, what was the point then of god warning Adam and Eve from eating from that tree, if he already knew they would be tempted by Satan to eat from it? If he already knew the Snake was going to persuade them to eat from that tree, and that they would eventually listen and do so, then why did he punish them? Seems rather cruel, don't you think?
Tell me what shouldve the solution been
@@Breadnamreal How about: putting the damn tree well out of reach, like you'd do with Tide pods to that the little kids can't put their grabby hands on them - prompted or unprompted by the Snake - and try to eat them? If "god" really did not want Adam and-or Eve to eat from that tree, he shouldn't've put it gobsmack in the middle of the garden!
@@letumetnihilum1511 okay but dont you think the serpeny couldve just threw them to adam and eve
@@Breadnamreal a) if "god" really didn't want Adam and Eve to eat from that tree, he would've made sure it was well out of reach of them.
b) (going by your example) "god" would've known the Serptent would try to throw a fruit to them, and would've intercepted it, and then smitten the Serpent.
c) he could've just up and destroy the tree all together, since he can make a new one whenever, whereever he pleases.
d) None of that actually happened at all anyway. "god" or "gods" are only as real as people make themselves believe it.
@@letumetnihilum1511 th-cam.com/video/cv85tvudi7Y/w-d-xo.htmlsi=xkz-CWhrwab_g2_X
In other words: God doesn't have to experience sin or be sinful to know what its like to sin.
An oxymoronic sentence...
@@samppakoivula9977 How so? Please elaborate. As an illustration, do you have to experience a high from cocaine to know that abusing cocaine is harmful?
@@angeliquaserenity5009 Yeah, well the problem is that we are talking about God not people, so bad comparison. The only way this would make sense is that God knows sin through our experience, that when we die, whatever we experienced here, becomes God's experience. However that would mean God doesn't know everything a priori (before experience), but needs sometimes knowledge a posteriori (after experience), thus questioning God as all-knowing. The only other explanation is that God experienced and knows sin through Jesus. However, there is still the same problem as in the first scenario and also the problem that in the time of Jesus there wasn't for example modern tech, i.e. there are new ways to sin today. So the problem is how can God knows sin, as he should as all-knowing, if God has not experienced itself or if there hasn't been info or parents who warned for example about the dangers of drugs or tinder-cheating?
@@angeliquaserenity5009 So in short: As all-knowing God should know sin even if has not experienced it, but on the other hand can not understand how hard it could be to resist sin. It is whole another being and living as human and decide not to try to drugs after having enough knowledge about dangers of drugs. So in many ways God is a special case - like maybe more akin to someone who has grown and lived in a primitive tribe and never heard of drugs and sin, yet somehow finds a way to community where there is many possibilities to sin. So how can you know you are sinning when you don't even know you are sinning and yet you should as all-knowing being?
@@samppakoivula9977 No, he knows how hard it is to resist sin without having to experience it. You assume that the knowledge of the struggle to resist sin is only based on God having to experience the struggle. In short, you are limiting the knowledge of God to needing experience. So limiting God to human logic.
You've got a special talent for explaining the concepts I've been reading about for years in a way that no one else I know has. Keep up the good work!!
Did god know who would go to hell before he created them? If so, why would a loving god choose to create them?
@@glegely8377 I pose this question quite often. If God is omnipotent and omniscient, then by definition, he must have planned literally everything, even our thoughts and actions, and also whether we go to Hell or not. But it often seems impossible to explain why this is to theists, although I've had success with it a few times.
@@Kanzu999 God knows all the paths we can take in life. It does not necessarily mean we lack free will.
@@SA1656tw He doesn't just know what paths we *can* take, but he knows what paths we *will* take even before we are born. Otherwise he wouldn't be omniscient. God created us, and since he is omnipotent, he can create us in any way possible. Since he is also omniscient, he knows what any of his actions and creations will result in. Whatever God does, he knows all future events that will come from that action even before he takes it. It's impossible for God to do anything without already having decided what the future would be like.
When God created our world, he already knew everything that would happen as a result of how he created the world. He can only pick and choose. Thus if God is actually omnipotent and omniscient, literally everything would be a part of God's plan, even our thoughts and actions and whether we will burn in Hell or not.
@@SA1656tw god knew everything that would happen when he created the universe.
Everyone's forgetting omnipotence.... once you throw that in, free will becomes (more) untenable.
Almost like
3:00 3:38 4:17
I'll be honest, it's unlikely for humans to Really Understand what Omniscience Truly means in terms of Free Will.
God so loved the World, that He Gave His only begotten Son...
this is nonsense, how would anyone know if someone else is omniscient? all god's attribute are pure invention - has anyone alive met god? and how did they test?
@@HarryNicNicholasSo, God's attributes are not real because there's no empirical evidence? Where is empirical evidence for that claim? We know that God's attributes are real because God says that they are, and because philosophy proves that these attributes are completely logical
Wow.. you jumped into something i never knew people actually debate on.. nice. Im gonna sub you.
Same this guy feeds me knowledge like crazy
If God knows everything he knows what you are going to do before you do it. Therefore there is no free will because your actions have to conform to his knowledge.
@@joelfry4982 um... we have free will
@@joelfry4982 he knows because he don't have to wait the next days like we do. GOD is Beyond time and space and yes free will we got. To choose to be good or bad. GOD Almighty don't control us.
@@joelfry4982 It's almost like you didn't watch the video
The funny think is. . . God doesnt just know your past, present, and future. . .
He knows every possible past, present, and future you could have had, as well as the one you are currantly living in.
He knows every possible decision you could have made, and every possible future outcomes that could have resulted in those possible decisions.
He also knows this for every human being, as well as every possible event, from a meteor falling onto a planet, to the beat of a butterflies wing, that could have occured, and every possible future outcome form every possible event that could have tooken place.
He knows this for every possible world as well.
And so much more!
Yet what I just described still cannot fully begin to grasp the infinite knowledge of God.
Yeah my brother had a very descriptive dream about a war between heaven and hell and it made me question a lot of things on my faith a long time ago. I don't mind sharing
@@kruxue866
Sure.
AMEN
If God can know all possible events and still know what you are going to do, that doesn't mean you have any free will at all. God is not peering into the future and seeing what you are going to do. If god can know what you could do and still allow the freedom of choosing one path, then that makes him only aware of possible futures, not specific future. Even if God can know the future, the future is still a thing, whether you have knowledge of it or not. Going forward in time and giving what happened in the future was only a perception of what happened, or only saying a tree fell in the woods. if you go into the future without knowledge of what happens and find out later that that is what would have happened anyway, then you aren't free. A tree that falls in the woods with no one around to hear/see it still falls. Your reality of a fallen tree was not formed until you saw it on the ground, but that doesn't mean the situation was constructed in a way to fool you for some odd reason. Whatever you know the future to be, then you know it will happen in that way, whether your reality has formed that future yet or not.
@@_a.z my brothers dream not mine. It doesn't change the fact we have out of body experiences, why kids ages 8-10 see glowing eyed entities, or why September 2018 literally formed the birth of christ in terms of stars in corealation to the time in bible. It might just be a dream from my brother but it was a very descriptive one that had a very impactfull meaning behind it ( god ultimately forgiving the one man who caused every sin and suffering today) it was very emotional and my brother had no reason to dream about such a thing. The supernatural is something science cannot explain easily , but it's very easy for you to downgrade it in every way you feel. I'm not religious but that dream means a lot to me even now. Your thoughts don't disprove god in anyway. You'd know that if you kept watching this youtuber and stopped half assing your way assuming your always right
IP, I love your work. It’s helped me to understand my faith. Your arguments seem thought through and logical compared with counter claims. However, something that has been bothering me is the existence of Hell. Not the thought that God created it, or he sent people to it, but the fact that secularists and theologians alike claim it doesn’t exist, and is a man made fear to encourage religious belief. I’ve seen references to the four words used for Hell in the Bible, Sheol, Tartaraus, Gehenna and Hades, referring to different things but not eternal damnation. I’m curious if there’s an explanation for this, not having studied Hebrew or Greek myself. Could you explain Hell? Great video btw.
My next video will be on hell. It will be live on Friday, but is currently live for all patreon supporters: www.patreon.com/inspiringphilosophy
@@InspiringPhilosophy Fun Fact, if you are omniscient in real life, then you would die because your brain can't handle the chemical changes and memories that are being stored.
In short, the ancient Israelites believed Sheol was an underworld where ALL the souls of the dead went to "rest in peace," or go into a state of suspended animation...as long as one was properly buried. If not, the soul would disappear into non-existence. Gehenna, was a trash dump outside of Jerusalem where not only garbage was burned, but human corpses! For the Jews who still believed it was really important to get a proper burial, having one's body "sent to Gehenna" meant you would "lose your soul," in the sense of it going out of existence. If a person "lost both body and soul" in the trash fires of the Gehenna Dump, many Jews believed God could not resurrect them from the dead for there would be nothing left of them for God to raise up! Hades, or the realm of Hades, the pagan god, the brother of Zeus, is where all the dead went according to Greek Mythology, but instead of "sleeping," they were conscious. Part of the realm of Hades was a place of punishment, like Tartarus; another part was a place of reward--the Elysian Fields. Most of the Jews, (except for the Sadducees) were repulsed by what the myth of Hades' realm, but by the end of the 1st Century CE, when most Christians were Greco-Roman converts, the Jewish idea of a restored, eternal, nation of Israel, what they called the Kingdom of God, following a resurrection of the dead, was replaced by the false idea that the "kingdom of God" was the same thing as the Elysian Fields, and those whom the Jews believed would have been excluded from citizenship in the coming earthly Kingdom of God, at least for a while, due to their unrighteousness, were mistaken by the later pagan converts to Christianity as going to the punitive part of Hade's realm for not converting. Rick Lannoye, author of www.amazon.com/Hell-No-Certain-There-Place/dp/1477401938
@@ricklannoye4374 Seems off to me. God could raise somone up either way, and no earthly fire can destroy the soul. Thats my view though.
How does god being outside of space and time while being omniscient, mean that he sees our actions in a chronological format? Going by such a format, he would know the beginning, ending, and everything in between, simultaneously. But whatever the case, our existence and actions could never predate his existence and omniscience.
God doesn't need prediction to know the future, God just sees it
it's make believe. god is imaginary so he can do whatever william lane craig says he can do and these suckers swallow it.
@@Pietrosavr god isn't real mate.
@@HarryNicNicholas You will be surprised after you die.
Different possibilities cannot exist if all outcomes are already determined by a "creator". There can't be a single possibility that exempts his knowledge, because he technically knew everything even before creating anything
Well yeah. God knows the possibilities of things, just like how we can? If we had all the math behind things moving and their possibilities, we do not cause it, we just know it.
But this isn’t really omniscience though. Foreknowledge and knowing all possibilities aren’t the same. He doesn’t know the possibilities, he knows exactly what WILL happen. Very different things imo
The problem is not with moral perfection and omniscience, but with omnipotence and omniscience. Since God created everything the way he wanted, he already knew at the time of creation what was going to happen and therefore he determined it by putting (for example) atom A in place B instead of atom C in place B. In a way, he created the conditions by which we would decide and act the way we did and therefore, decided how everything was going to play out in advance. In other words, he anticipated your decisions and decided to create the universe in X manner and not in a Y manner were you would've decided differently (if we are able to say that God can create all possible universes). Another theory could be that God had no choice in creating the universe the way he did because it is the most "perfect" one with free will, but then, he is not omnipotent nor free...
Watch his omnipotence video..
Except that God counted in our free will as well.
I would recommend you check out the divine hiddenness response video from this channel
@@blakejohnson1264 Are you recommending it to me?
@@davethesid8960 I’m recommending it to everyone
Just a quick question, if God could not possibly actualize a perfect world in which there is no evil, does this mean he is not omnipotent?
No it would be like asking God to make a square circle
God doesn't want everyone to be perfect robots or actual beings in their own right.
Without a choice to do evil in the 1st place. Good isn't really true in creation.
God perceived that having freedom to choose is the best outcome.
Therefore evil can exist.
@@johnrockwell5834 evil being able to exist does not mean evil must exist, and as far as I can tell, a world in which no man commits evil, even with the choice to, is not logically impossible
@@DManCAWMaster but why would it be like that? Why is a world with no evil logically impossible? As far as I can tell, to create a perfect world isn't like trying to create a square circle, but just a perfect circle
@@BigGman19 God wants free creatures which allows for the possibility of evil and it could just be the case this is the best possible world given man's free choice
“What happens determines what God knows” that’s genius, your insight is great along with your clear and concise
presentation. Thanks man, your vids always get me thinking.
So he doesn’t know what actions were going to make? He’s not omniscient. If god doesn’t know what choices I’m going to make tommorow he’s not omniscient.
@@jesushad12gayfriendwhoallb50 Did you not watch the video?
@@jesushad12gayfriendwhoallb50
You obviously misunderstood. He is arguing that God has foreknowledge of all things already, and this foreknowledge is based on what humans freely choose to do. I disagree with that model, believing that God sovereignly ordains all things, but nevertheless you are misinterpreting the comment.
“Remember the former things long past,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is no one like Me,
Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things which have not been done,
Saying, ‘My purpose will be established,
And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’;
- Isaiah 46:9-10
Also, your username reveals that you’re likely 12 or 13, and you blindly hate God. Your whole personality is based on your hatred for a being you claim doesn’t exist. You love sin and self, and you hate God. Repent, flee from the wrath to come by taking refuge in Jesus.
@@jesushad12gayfriendwhoallb50 Think of it like this:
Person A is inside a room. Person B is inside another room. Person A can see Person B through a large monitor. The large monitor can show Person A what Person B is doing _before_ he does it. In other words, the monitor has the ability to send information through time so that Person A is able to see things before they actually happen. Now replace Person A with God and Person B with me. If I do something, God knows that I will do that thing but only because me doing it is known to Him before I actually do it.
@@justanotherbaptistjew5659 I have a question in front of me. And i will choose one. God knows what i will choose. Let's choose one. I chose b instead of a, c, d, e, f. Well, God already knew that. Then why was there other options instead of just a? In fact, there is not even a question. Because which one i will chose was predetermined.
After rewatching this I realized there's one argument not addressed in the video, an argument concerning the incompleteness theorem. This would basically be that either God's knowledge is complete or substantiated but it cannot be both. So to say God knows all true propositions, the one he can't know is whether he's omniscient because that proposition would have to be justified by something outside God's knowledge. What would be your response to this argument?
Apologists just say whatever is convenient in the moment. That is their answer to everything.
You dont need to look externally for it at all: "is there something I dont know? No. Therefore I am omniscient"
Isn't God the ground for all necessary truths?
@@filler7149 suppose you take an "omniscient" being, a god for example, how could they know they know everything? what if there was not just something they don't know the answer to, but that you don't even know you don't know? an example might be another higher god hiding their existence, you can never, no matter how much you know prove that there isn't another higher god, sure maybe at some point such a higher god will reveal himself and then you know there is one, but is there one above them? any rational god will realize this (an irrational god will not and therefor not be omniscient), omniscience is impossible
How do you only have 70K subs, man? This is great stuff..
I know right? Angry, idiot internet modern atheists are popular while the good stuff and rational channels are unpopular. This is very unjust.
@@karl5722 Yeah man. IP should do more appearances on other ppls YT channels both atheists and theists. I like watching him engage in discussions.
@Fortress Aurora Your 'profile' is communist and yet theist agnostic. Hmmm interesting. Anyway It is an appeal based on lack of father figures as it has been proven by David Wood and bad childhoods. And yes these critisism become dogmatic and even cancerous
@Fortress Aurora I made this comment because Communism has always been very atheistic from the atheist philosopher Karl Marx to Communist Russia and China. I didn't mean to say they are anti-theist (Which is true) but meant that they are atheistic.
Anyway, Communist Russia did not see the struggle of teh Orthodox Church and a matter of history, the orthodox was very much cooperating with Tsardom. But then came the communist revolution which made the orthodox church struggle and persuted by anti-theists such as Stalin and lenin. I amd not saying that Tsardom was a good country, it was bad. But I am saying that the communist regime of the 20th century was Worse as many minorities including the orthodox were persecuted and racism as well secterianism were implemented.
About the TOTAL myth of the "socialist God", I would recommend you to see history. First Capitalism came and was instuted by the protestant ethic. There are many books and articles online that shows the correlation. Secondly Karl marx had in his book for his marxist utopia, the abolition of religion and socialism is stealing and for this utopia to be achieved, violence was to be applied which were both against the teaching of Christ. Thirdly the bible is strictly against socialism and other forms of it. For example in Timothy, there were people who did NOT work and yet gained money which is not capitalism, a meritocracy (menaing the sytem is depended on merit) also in Timothy people were had work so that to eat. Socialism/... requires stealing from the rich and giving to the poor which didn't earn the money as well for monarchies who did not do anything to earn. You mentioned the book of acts, well in this book, voluntary actions was being shared between the apostles. This is also capitalism which doesn't give power to those exploit.
His content is garbage
Q1) Can an omniscient being simultaneously know, to arbitrary precision, the position and momentum of an electron? If yes, how can quantum mechanics (which depends deeply on the uncertainty principle) still work? If no, then why call the being omniscient?
Q2) Can an omniscient being distinguish one electron from another? If yes, again how can quantum mechanics work? And if no, how can it be omniscient?
I am way late to reply to this, but I find the questions interesting so I'll give it a go.
1) The thing about the uncertainty principle is that it says more than just what we are able to observe, but about the data which actually exists behind the observation. It is not that an electron has a particular position and momentum and we're just bound to never know it, but that the information which describes both of these properties exactly literally does not exist. The superposition of the electron is itself the state in which it exists, and God, being Omniscient, knows everything about that superposition, and ultimately how it will collapse when provoked.
2) With a "particular electron" here meaning a local 4D structure of disturbance in the electromagnetic quantum field, yeah God knows where all the worldlines are and how they interact with each other. Any time an electron interacts with a positron and they form a photon and that photon splits into another electron/positron pair, that new electron is not the "same" electron as the first one. In fact to call an electron the same electron even if no splitting goes on is rather dubious. It is akin to pointing to a particular letter in a text after you backspace it and rewrite it and saying that it is the same letter. Similarly to the previous case, if there is no actual information present, then there is nothing to be known.
Though this case is a little different because the 4D structure of the electron's worldline does provide something of a distinction between them, though this becomes a matter akin to the Ship of Theseus. Sensibly, if one were to look at a diagram that perfectly describes the course of the electron worldlines (which are all superpositions in their own right) one could discern them on the basis of their structure, even if there is no actual identity present. Another analogy to that is if two galaxies collide and merge, at what point do they become one? The problem is that we expect there to be a point. The idea of a galaxy is not something fundamental to the universe, nor do they have identity in the most literal sense, they are an emergent structure, and they are fluid in nature. It is simply wrong to think that we must be able to discern one galaxy from another down to an exact moment.
To summarize all of that, Omniscience isn't expected to know information which doesn't actually exist.
The uncertainty principle isn’t necessary for quantum mechanics, it is just the fact that we can’t know the velocity and position of where a particle is, because of the nature of observation and how it inevitably interacts with particles. There are scientist who believe in superdeterminism, it’s not impossible.
hidden debug variables
I don't get how there's a problem with the statement "God knows what we will freely choose to do". Even if He knows what our choices are, they're still that. OUR choices that WE make.
It’s because he created the universe and everything in it while being omniscient meaning he knows exactly what outcome will come from his actions. If god created the universe he did so knowing exactly what would happen in said universe. That is the contradiction that free will creates. Either we have free will and god has no control over our lives or we don’t and god predestined everything.
@@noahfredrickson6479 Both of those are incorrect. From what I got from the video, our present actions determine what God had already knew before anything was even created. It's not that God is "forcefully" or "predestined" our very actions, that would go against the doctrine of free will. Instead, I think a better explanation would be God's foreknowledge is contingent on the very actions we do. So it's not a matter of a false dilemma you set up, God can be both sovereign and omniscient, while giving us true, human free will
there isn't a problem cos god does not exist. as always the apologist is here to reassure you god isn't a silly and incoherent idea.
@@HarryNicNicholas real original mate, it's not like apologists for decades and longer have been presenting logical arguments to present the idea of God to be rational, and in turn prove His existence. If all you've got is the typical atheist "it's nonsense to believe in a god" response, then you do your community a huge disservice.
Because the claim is that God knew everything BEFORE he created everything. That necessarily means that he created it to be that exact way, since he had the option to create it however he desired.
In other words, if I eat a donut, God knew I was going to eat the donut before he created me. He could have chosen to create a version of me that did not eat the donut. But He didn't. Therefore, he created me to eat the donut. That takes away my choice in the sense that he made the choice for me (by creating a version of me that would make that choice).
So omnipotence combined with omniscience contradicts freewill.
The real focus should be on whether the Bible actually makes these two claims about God at all. If you read every scripture bearing on the point, you may be surprised at how ambiguous they really are in this regard. God has super knowledge and is super powerful, but to take those notions all the way to absolute omniscience and absolute omnipotence, is to go beyond the actual words written. Context is king.
That actually makes a lot of sense. This is how I understood it but you explained it rlly well thanks!
lol I’m just here cause I wanna write an omniscient character in a book
People think that God can't be omniscient and give us free will because they assume that God can only know the future like we can know the future, with prediction, which requires some degree of determinism. However, God is outside of time and doesn't need to predict the future based on the past, God sees all as present.
Of course god doesn't exist in time, but it doesn't me I don't 😂. So god knows what I am going to do in the future. Presumably he knows and understands it(unless you want to put even further constraints on his omniscience) and this means he knows how it's going to turn out, which negates the possibility of free will.
Lovely video.
Truth is, the greatest virtue God has given to us is Love. His love. But love cannot exist without free will. And with free will comes the calamitous possibility where we all make horrible decisions despite the love.
Love is the greatest pain we have. If you don't get what i nean, then you are naive and unblemished by the ravages of life.
@@dgagamingaesir Love doesn't hurt. Losing it does.
Good Job. I cannot wait until you release your next three videos.
Wait but god does know what it feels like to not be omniscient...
Because he came in the form of a human (Jesus Christ) he may not
Have sinned but he does know what it’s like to be us.. to be human.
So what are atheists talking about?
Once you allow gods foreknowledg in a way that describes god as being outside of time seeing all events along a supposed timeline then it can only be that god himself is causing those actions through an apparent freewill of a person. It means god is causally responsible for bringing out those actions that he foresees. You can never ever predict all human actions all of the time unless you have a hand in those actions.No two ways about it.
And if god is responsible in that way human freewill is only an illusion.
Once again I believe in the theory that I believe doesn't limit God at all which in this case is the perceptualist model of Omniscience.
Let's consider for a moment a being whose sole talent was being Omniscient, knowing all true propositions and believing no false propositions.
For simplicities sake, we'll establish a timeline for this Omniscient being called timeline A, where the beginning is when the Omniscient being first came to existence, and the end is when the Omniscient being ends his existence. I will call him Tom, because I like the name Tom.
Within Timeline A, Tom finds himself in a room with an Apple on a table. The proposition at hand is "Tom eats the apple". Either Tom takes the time to eat the apple, making the proposition true, or Tom does not make an attempt to eat the apple, making the proposition false.
We end up with two Sub timelines:
Timeline B: Every single scenario where Tom eats the apple
Timeline C: Every single scenario where Tom does not eat the apple. Therefore making the Proposition "Tom does not eat the apple" true.
Now Tom, being Omniscient, knows which sub-timeline he is in. After all, I could make the proposition: "Tom is in Timeline B", and that would be either true or false. However, Tom would not have the power to switch from Timeline B to Timeline C or vise versa. Because if he did, that would mean he believed in a false proposition, which is not possible under this definition of Omniscience.
What we end up with is a system of absolutes, leading to a deterministic worldview. You can scale this up to omnipotent levels of power, and the results would still be the same, as every action can be boiled down to a true or false proposition. All you do is make Timeline A start with Tom's first action and end with Tom's last action. There can't be indeterminism, because all true propositions are known to the Omniscient being., and as a result, Absolute Free Will cannot exist.
In essence, if an Omniscient being exists, then Free will cannot exist, as everything about the Omniscient 's characteristics, actions and desires can be reduced to True or False Propositions, one which the Omniscient being must know in order to be Omniscient.
I still cannot get away from this conclusion no matter what I watch trying to say that free will and omniscience can coexist.
People say that God doesn't actually physically make you to choose what you do.
But for his knowledge to be true you have to do exactly what he knows.
Even if you did what you did in the future and he witnessed it and then went into the past which is the present.
The outcome would still have to be along what God knows and you will still make the exact same choice following the time line back into the future.
So can this really be considered a choice if you cannot choose otherwise?
It's a confusing situation.
What intrigues me is not omniscience. Rather the existence of possible worlds as “possible worlds”. Those possibilities are configurations or settings which are actually existent in a metaphysical sense. In whatever and whichever way, one of those will be actualized no matter what. It’s like an algorithm or a program, a higher kind of reality, a set up or blueprint kind of reality that is superb and transcendent than any god. For example, the possibility that someone will commit a particular evil or a particular good, such possibility as an existent “set up” is also eternal in the same exact status as “reality” itself, god is in no need as an “explanation” for their existence. They likewise eternally exist. In the same status as “free will”, there’s no way it could be created by any god, let alone given or designed. God as the one who breathes fire in reality is a superfluous idea, that alone is also a piece of configuration. There’s a lot of fatal issues regarding a personal god or an anthropomorphic god.
Why is God portrayed as a powerless observer? Did he not create me? And did he not know while creating me that I'd be atheist?
Why didn't he, in His omnipotence, only create people he knew would believe in him?
The title is Omniscience Paradox Debunked but it fails to do that without having to assign God arbitrary attributes simply to arrive at the pre-determined conclusion. These attributes probably also goes against the arguments for the Omnipotent quality in which the argument is that All Powerful still has its limits and God cannot do that which is impossible unless you are arbituary stating that God can do anything which prevents falsification of a biblical statement because of special pleading.
You bite yourself @4:00, there is the error in your reasoning.
If you have a time machine and you saw the next day and returned back.
Now if the events are taking place the same way then where is the "freedom" in "free will".
You are implying that each day would play out just as it did, and it couldn't be otherwise.
You yourself gave a reasoning in support of "fatalism", great job man I applaud you XD
Yeah just because he says it with determination it doesn't make his argument right. There can't be free will with an omniscient god.
That was an analogy, as explained God is outside of time.
@@sdlkfjhasiodf1477 Why can't there be free will with an omniscient God?
@@sdlkfjhasiodf1477 Unless, His Omniscience is Dynamic 😉
Like when he almost destroyed man because he was sorry he made us ,,,and God repented that he made man
As a Theist, I see a problem with god's omni-attributes with regards to the exodus story, where the stragglers are attacked by Amalek: why wouldn't god alert Moses of the ambush? It's as If, when doing something extraordinary like leading with a pillar cloud/fire, his power is taxed. Also, some daughters of a tribe approach Moses with a complaint, and god tells Moses they are right: why didn't he proactively make the stipulation: Perhaps god has a very casual side?
My thoughts on that is sorta like that movie Next with Nicholas Cage, just more so on a omnipotent level. Seeing all decisions, every domino falling from those decisions... mind blowing of Elohim's ways.
I have been satisfied with molinism. You have eased this unbearlquestion that has persists in my mind: how can God's omniscience reconcile with Human free will?
Yeah I am still having problems with this, as since God knows I would die a sinner or not BEFORE I WAS EVER BORN, then I am simply acting in accordance to that which God knew I would act.
Why does omniscience have to include the future? It doesn't make sense in relation to free will. Why is it not enough to simply know all truth claims instead of knowing the future that didn't happen yet, it does not limit gods power in anyway to say God cannot tell the future anymore than saying God is not all powerful, because he cant create a rock so powerful he cannot lift it.
Please answer:
1. Does God create humans he knows will be fatally victimized at the age of eight months old?
2. If our actions is what leads to God's knowledge of our fate where does that leave a victimized baby ??????????
"His knowledge doesn't seal your future fate, your own choices do" That is what you SAID!
The answer is... "We just like to make up as much shyte as possible to defend or diabolical religion"
So many errors due to not using the bible and what God has said Himself concerning His revealed and hidden decree. thumbs down.
Leatherwood Outdoors www.newadvent.org/fathers/3506.htm , name one Church Father who subscribed to your heresy.
Hello. So, what I want to do with this message is to simply show what the Gospel is.
I am not trying to force my belief down people's throats.
It's your choice whether you want to accept it.
So, a question: Do you think you are a good person?
If so, have you ever stolen anything, lied, looked lustfully, watched adult material? All of those are sins and anyone who sinned is not good(on God´s standard).
You, I and most( most because babies don't sin, and maybe specifically mentally Ill people) purely human beings have violated God's moral law.
Since God is just, He can not let sin go just like that. So is there any hope? Yes, there is! Out of love and mercy, God became a human being, Jesus Christ. Jesus lived a
sinless life and finally died on the cross to bear the punishment we deserve, we deserve to be punished because we have sinned.
The reason why blood must be spilled for remission of sins is because the life of the flesh is in the blood, in the Old Testament Jews sacrificed animals for sins but the
sacrifice of animals were enough for remission of some sins, not all. It wasn't infinite, unlike Jesus's. Jesus is the Lamb of God, the ultimate sacrifice for sins which is
enough for all sins that have been done, are done and will be done. The Old Testament sacrifice of animals, the spilled blood of those animals could cleanse people from some
sins but not ALL, unlike Jesus's. He was buried and rose again. His resurrection proved that His death was enough to pay our penalty, the penalty for our sins.Jesus paid our
penalty and in order to accept the free gift of salvation from God, we must trust in Jesus's spilled Blood, His finished work on the Cross for our salvation. And then your
sins will be forgiven because of what Christ did, you will be saved.
See: Romans 3:10, Romans 3:23, Romans 5:12, Romans 6:23, Romans 5:8-9, Romans 10:9-10, Ephesians 2:8-9, John 3:16, Leviticus 17:11, Ephesians 1:7, Colossians 1:20,
1 Corinthians 15:1-4. th-cam.com/video/lbb4xwYj19g/w-d-xo.html
Evidence for God´s existence: Kalam cosmological argument, Contigency argument, Modal ontological argument. Regarding Christianity, check out InspiringPhilosophy´s videos
about the Ressurection of Jesus and the reliability of the New Testament. Together, they show good evidence that Christianity is true.sd
So... God doesn't know everything?
PS: I haven't heard anybody say foreknowledge *causes* events to happen. If I have forknowledge that a train will be late, I didn't cause it to be late, but at the same time it's impossible for it not to be late since perfect foreknowledge means this event is a constant in time💭. Hope I worded that correctly.
That's why if sci fi ideas such as time is a loop also negates free will. Even if time is a bunch of streams, every stream has fixed events and every version of you in that stream can't escape the fate recorded in that stream.
If foreknowledge of the future is possible or a definite future already exists then that means the future is fixed.
Foreknowledge doesn't cause an event, no. But creating a universe knowing that an event would be caused as a result of that act of creation does.
If God didn't have foreknowledge that 9/11 would happen if he created this universe in this specific way, then it wouldn't be his fault. But he did know that, before he created this specific universe in this specific way, 9/11 would happen, and he couldn't be wrong about that. We don't blame the boulder for crushing the man at the bottom if it is pushed down a hill for acting according the pre-set laws of physics, we blame the person that pushed it knowing that it would crush the man.
that may be true, but it wound't negate free will or serve as a way to blame god, yeah, may he did know that things were going to happen that way, but he did so cause' people made it happens that way, and they used their free will to do it.
@@jonathacirilo5745 yes it does negate free will god created the universe knowing the outcome.
Well, actually... You wouldn't really KNOW for sure that your daughter would sleep today at some point... Your daughter could stay up all night as some ppl do, or just have insomnia that night... You would only really know for sure if you were her or maybe it'd be possible if you were scanning her brain or something and knew that the info from it would be accurate... Even if you watch her close her eyes for an hour you still wouldn't really know...
The distinction between knowing and experiencing something though I think is a good distinction to make for your argument...
You're getting too technical with the illustration haha not trying to argue with you bc I sat on that thought too like you did with the exceptions and considerations and I'm like "Wait don't overthink it's just quick example"
These videos make no real sense if there's no actual evidence for a 'god' to begin with. It's like you're discussing a 10 minute video on leprechauns.
How can u have empirical evidence and studies for a being outside the universe ? There are strong philosophical arguments , read Ed Feser.
Leprechauns are fictional organisms, God is immaterial . Since we have not found fossils of leprechauns or unicorns or big foot then we can infer they probably don’t exist. It’s really a false comparison.
@@pabloandres6179 Where's you objective evidence that anything is 'outside the universe' let alone that it's a 'god?' All you're doing is making a claim, and nothing more. Anyone can also make the claim that leprechauns, elves, gnomes, unicorns, etc also reside 'outside' the universe, and are 'immaterial'as well. So _what?_ Can you actially *demonstrate* any of it to be true?
"Since we have not found fossils of leprechauns or unicorns or big foot then we can infer they probably don’t exist" If the claim is that they're 'immaterial' then 'fossils' are irrelevant, just like your 'god' claim.
0:40 Why use the theistic definition. The simplest answer is usually the best one, instead of using the simple definition you reached for your specific definition to bolster the BS.
1:54 Two seperate types of omniscience means there are still SOME THINGS that God doesn't know. If we discard to perceptualist model when defining omniscience then we discard aspects of the human perspective as "things that God knows" hence God doesn't actually know EVERYTHING.
3:03 It literally never crossed my mind that god CAUSED evil by knowing about before it happened. It only occurred to me that before it happened, he knew it would. God doesn't need to be the cause of evil for it to be f**ked that he already knew what was going to happen to us long before he created us. There's a huge flaw here: babies who are brutally raped and murdered. Are you trying to say it was their own actions that led to God's knowledge of what would end up happening to them?????
@@snackler6102 the problem with that statement that god having omniscience while also affirming freewill and he knows what will happened but it didn't causes him the action of individuals,it raises question whether if god sadistic to watch to suffer his creations or not
@@snackler6102 and also it was contradictory imo that god having knowledge on future of the individual action and knows outcome but he wasn't the one were cause of were illogical imo because he created the humanity therefore he is still the one who were cause of it
@@snackler6102 the problem is that he(god) created humans and knowing what will happened on the future but didn't the cause of our the action or never determined somewhat still raising question on being omniscience and remember he is creator of humanity therefore it has big question on being "omniscient god but he wasn't the one who cause "statement
@@snackler6102 This comment was left by me quite a few months ago and I've since lost interest in the subject, I'll state my opinion one last time since you went through the trouble of typing up such a beautiful reply.
In my opinion, If God already knows what's going to happen to us we do not have free will. Either God knows what the outcome of my life will be before I am born and therefore nothing I do will change my fate or God doesn't know what will happen to me because I haven't made decisions about my life yet and am free to choose whatever I want to do. If God knows my fate already that means it is already sealed.
@@snackler6102 Can you please simplify whatever you said. If you can make it very concise (making one short paragraph) I'd appreciate that. I'd love to understand.
What is your position on the following proposition, taken from the Summa Theologiae
"It is not because things happen that God knows them, but because God knows them that things happen."
Well, I don't really hold to that view. I think I would need more context.
@@InspiringPhilosophy I'm not an expert, but maybe S. Thomas Aquinas was simply saying that everything happens because God made it happen (in this case, the primary cause acts directly ) or allowed it to happen (in this case, the primary cause acts through secondary causes ). In other words, it isn't wrong to say that everything happens because God knows it's going to happen (because nothing happens that isn't at least allowed by God, and if you make something happen or allow something to happen, it's obvious that you are sure it's going to happen; it's also obvious that, if you are omnipotent and don't allow something to happen, you are sure that's not going to happen ). This view does not deny human free will (which is a secondary cause ) nor God's predestination.
@@InspiringPhilosophy I'm not an expert, but maybe S. Thomas Aquinas was simply saying that everything happens because God made it happen (in this case, the primary cause acts directly ) or allowed it to happen (in this case, the primary cause acts through secondary causes ). In other words, everything happens because God knows it's going to happen (because nothing happens that isn't at least allowed by God ). This view does not deny human free will (which is a secondary cause ) nor God's predestination.
well since ip embraces molinism and sta calvinism obviously he will not agree and he is wrong. thats what happens when scriptuire does not guide your philosophy...
@@lalumierehuguenote Are you a calvinist? I'm a Catholic, and I personally hold to the thomistic view, even thought I can accept molinism as a legitimate opinion.
You probably hold to the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. Personally, as a Catholic, I accept the material sufficiency of Scripture, which says that everything necessary for salvation is, at least implicitly, contained in Scripture. However, Church's Tradition and Magisterium are necessary for a correct interpretation of Scripture, because Apostolic Succession grants that we have today an understanding of Scripture similar to the Apostles' and their disciples' one (even thought there was a developement of doctrine through time, as heretics started to question doctrines - such as the Trinity, the nature of Jesus, the divine maternity of Mary, ecc. - and it became necessary to define precisely some of them ).
Hum, okay God knows all the possibilities and automatically actualises them, but if It's Omniscient, It knows what It will actualise, and if It's outside of time, It know and has always knew which possibilities would get actualized, what would play out.
"always knew" can't apply to God, He's outside of time meaning that all of what we experience as time to Him is the same moment.
@@tafazzi-on-discord Either they know either they dont
@@vmmovies8185 Yes but God knows in His "now", the one moment. We experience part of that one moment through time, a time that to Him is not something He is bound by, it's a dimension like any other.
I think a good analogy would be those old tvs with the electron beam running line by line, painting an image on the screen. God is like at the same time author and spectator of that image, but we can only see what is in the Ray, what to us seems obviously sequential actually paints a complete picture.
God lives outside of time, if you have to imaginve God of thinking or doing "one thing before the other" you have not grasped this concept
I’m Catholic, so I’ll say this. To know something is not to make it. In fact we believe that we are pre-destined to have free will.
But God made the universe under these conditions knowing the outcome before even forming the world. He did make it and he did know it
A trillion likes for this video because I struggled with the idea of free will, because I know that God has clearly foretold the future through prophecy.
So what about the prophecies that don’t come to pass ?
@@lauromartinez8948 which ones?
@@brandondunn9007 For example, God said to Jonah “In 40 days Niniveh will be overthrown”
40 days later, Niniveh was still there.
What happened ?
@@lauromartinez8948 that was if they didn’t repent. They did repent. But also when they reverted back to their old ways Nineveh and indeed the entire Assyrian regime was overthrown.
@@brandondunn9007 The prophecy doesn’t say “If you don’t repent” it just says They will be destroyed in 40 days.
So God didn’t do what He clearly said He was going to do.
So God knows all the possible outcomes? So do I when I flip a coin, it's either heads or tails. That doesn't mean I know the outcome of the coin toss beforehand.
The assumption that god knowing the future necesitates him determining the future is false, I think we both agree on this. However, even if the future determines god's omniscience and not the other way around, his omnicience still necesitates fatalism and destroys the notion of free will, even if he is outside of time and actualizes everything at once.
If the future determines or feeds so to speak, god's omnicience then it still means that those events already exist and have happened and are predetermined. If he actualices all of time at once it means he already determined your future as well.
We could argue that god doesn't know what decisions you will definitelly make in the future, because they haven't been made, but that he does know all possible immediate outcomes of those decisions, but that would require him to be bound by time.
The analogy of the time machine also deosn't wok for the similar reasons. There are various ways to travel in time but they are all equally paradoxical. If I am to asume that with your time machine you just jump outside of the timeline and you get to a more advanced point in the timeline, even if things weren't determined you just determined them by knowing them, since otherwise your knowledge would contradict reality. If the future determined your knowledge it means your future already existed and therefore you never had free wil to travel into the future or to change it, even if you have knowledge of what this future is, which in itself is paradoxical.
The only way I could think around this is that you already made every choice in your life and now you are just experiencing said choices after you have already made them through your free will. But that itself would be a form of fatalism since it means your life is already over and you are just experiencing, but it's already determined, by your free will maybe, but it's already done.
What makes you think an omnipotent can't give free will and be morally good?
@@EasternOrthodoxChristian don’t know what you read, but I never talked about omnipotence in this comment.
Regardless. Free will is just incompatible with logic itself there are good videos out there that explain why better than I can. Regarding morally good I never said anything about that, and omnipotent being can be morally good, it’s just that there is no such being in this universe because there is a lot of evil and gratuitous evil, which wouldn’t be the case under a morally good omnipotent being,
@@alejandrovallejo4330 define good and evil first
@@alejandrovallejo4330 no good videos, just goofy gay atheist showing that their iq is lower than a peanut
3:55 God knowing the future kills free-will because God set all of these things in motion. Also, the way you're saying it undermines God's omnipotence. Because if God only knows what we're doing 'after' we exercise our free-will, that clears violates omnipotence of God.
God bless you sir. Seriously how do you study all these things? it's simply awesome.
I read a lot.
I have watched only the first 3 minutes so far, and I already think some of the objections against God's omniscience are stupid objections. Through the person of Jesus Christ, God has already Personally experienced human life. Secondly, Jesus came for the purpose of being victorious over sin; therefore, disaffirming God's omniscience on the basis of not personally experiencing sin doesn't work. If God had personally sinned, then doubters would raise the contradiction between actually sinning and being wholly victorious over sin -- doubters would say something to the effect of, "It doesn't make sense to sin in order to be victorious over sin." Some of this philosophy stuff is stupid.
well maybe you should have finished watching because the point of this video was to argue those points...
I'll make a video replying to this, and adding on mentioning a subtle mishap that occurs that must be mentioned. Because this is some cool territory to delve into. 😎👍
This video does not debunk omniscient characteristics assigned to God by man. Changing the direction of information would break the 3rd law of thermodynamics, I.e. changes the flow of time. Simply stating that God can view past, present and future for no reason whatsoever and then cherry picking quotes to back that up does not make it true. It would not explain why God considered the seventh day holy, what about another planet that has a different length if day? Nor would it explain why such God would like the smell of burnt offering or even interact with the higgs field giving rise to mass.
The seventh day as a holy day only makes sense when taking the literal biblical view of there only being one planet, Earth, and God's work was done once man was created on the sixth day.
You forgot that God ordains therefore he knows
Brother I follow Islam and I am really a big fan of your videos. Keep up the good work brother.
I'm glad to hear IP's channel reaches out to different kinds of theists :)
Brom Ponie bro, the person has good explanations.
Pecu Alex yeah bro he is a gem . Which religion you follow though??
I reccomend David Woods videos to u
Qualified omniscience.
If god doesn't know something, that's because we define it differently.
If Molinism is true, Then everything is fated. The moment God actualized this world we can now only do what we somehow “freely” decided to do before we were even born!
I love the addition of Molinism. Great having researched it years ago and seeing it in this video told in a understandable way. Good work.
Eph 1:11 God works all things according to the council of His will. He doesn't look ahead to the future to see what man will do and therefore have knowledge of it. God doesn't learn. God knows what will happen, because He's the One who determined what will happen from eternity past.
"And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to his purpose" (Rom. 8:28).
"According to the eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Eph 3:11).
He plans (not merely sees ahead to what will happen) and no one annuls His plans (Isa. 14:26, 27).
He declares the end from the beginning, and His purpose stands, and He fulfills His intention (Isa. 46:9,10).
He decrees (not looks ahead in time to see) the length of everyone's life *He* determines it, *He* sets the limit (Job. 14:5).
This is not "look ahead" (or look behind, because God is timeless) to see what free creatures would do (or did) language. God "works" all things, "causes" all things, "accomplishes" all things according to His *eternal* purpose, "plans" what will take place, "declares all things" according to His "purpose and intention".
I think you got hung up in the terminology. Let me refrase and paraphrase it: *God plans and makes decisions whilst having knowledge of all possible future events that have our free will factored in.*
Let's listen to the Word of God instead of our fallible human reasoning. Great comment, I hope everyone reads this
Yet God himself does not disrupt free will. if everything is absolutely determined then God would not have said I wish none should perish but that all come to repentance and be saved. so obviously God's will is that all people come to repentance and be saved but many people wont be this is a example that God does not interfere with free will.
as for he declares the end from the beginning that verse is saying that what happened in the beginning shows us what will happen in the end.
The verses I cited above clearly teach that God decrees *all* things. That includes -- as difficult as it may be for us finite creatures to grasp (see Isaiah 55:8-9) -- our "free choices". I would also mention Proverbs 21:1 "The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever he will." As for 2 Peter 3:9, understand that Peter is speaking to *believers*. The verse reads as follows: "The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward *you* (emphasis added), not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
Paul clearly teaches in Romans 9 that God has mercy on whomever He wills and hardens whomever He wills. And that we are unable to resist God's will. And if you ask, "then why would God punish us if we're unable to resist His will?" then I would point out that you sound exactly like Paul's objector. And to that Paul answers,
"But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,"
And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.
people always want to blame someone else for the bad things that happen.
I love how you start these videos by using the most modern and charitable definitions of the traits of god and then accuse the skeptic of attacking a straw man. This is just being unfair and you know it.
If you don't use such awful definition why does it matter? The video is not directed at you then.
"God might not be able to" - wait, wasn't he also omnipotent?
he talks about this in his omnipotent part of the video. He says that the definition of omnipotence has nothing to do with "an ability scale" it's just the state or.... nature of being above all that is and all that will be.
Nope - God can never know for a fact that he is not being manipulated by a greater God.
Omniscience is therefore impossible. Has nothing to do with experience.
It's more the Matrix than the Avengers.
If God determined I will sit on a chair, then can I not sit on a chair? Let's just say he came to me and told me that I will sit on the chair, will I then have a choice to sit on it?
Beautifully done, I'm a visual learner and this was perfect. Keep up the good work and may God bless you.
So excited for future videos!!! Especially on hell and the problem of evil. I was also literally about to comment whether God knew we would rebel before He created us, then you proceeded to answer that. Really covering all your bases
Hello! Atheist here. I believe you lost me with the perceptualist/conceptualist part of this. You just confused me even further the more you spoke. Regardless, you still said (to me) that we have fatalism. If God knows what actions I’m going to make before I will (even if I change my mind, which he will know) means my fate is sealed.
Before the universe began God already knew my fate. That means my fate was already decided without me and was therefore not my choice. Its very simple.
"Knowing all true propositions and believing no false propositions"
Does god know that he is not deceived ? Yes or NO
Yes = according to your video he can know that? How is that possible? If somebody deceived him he wouldn't know it.
In no way can god be sure if this proposition is really true
Exactly. God cannot know whether he is being manipulated.
There is literally no way for him to have that knowledge.
In fact everything that he knows may be a lie, and he would have no idea.
Even if it's not a lie, he cannot know that... so he is always guessing.
God is an infinite being and to say "He doesn't know" is to say He is a finite being and could lack something that's what I don't know means, I lack the knowledge. And if you're infinite you don't lack anything.
@@Sheenifier Define him however you like, there's no logical way for him to have that information. You could define him as a married bachelor if you want.
@Herr Fuchs liebt seine dauerlutscher i'm back again!
The reason why I deleted my comments was because I was so bewildered by calling my actual argument which was "if God knows all true propositions then God knows all true propositions and he knows it." Nonsense! So explain why my argument is a good argument. I know that you might retaliate with what is what is God doesn't know all true propositions or the proposition that he knows are false? This doesn't make sense because then it splits the argument in 2! I'm going to give you an example
1. If God does not know all true propositions
Then he can't know that he's being deceived so if God does not know all true propositions...
2. If God knows all true propositions we know that he's not being deceived because if God knows all true propositions then God knows all true propositions and he knows it!
And I also think that most people will retaliate by saying what is God's knowledge is inside of some bubble and he knows all knowledge that is inside this bubble and outside this bubble is more knowledge but God does not know about this knowledge this is inconsistent! God knows ALL true propositions! So he would know about the knowledge outside of this bubble!
But I want to talk to you for Real... I really don't have a bandana against atheism! I'm completely fine with people being atheist but I hate this prevailing attitude that every religious person is violence stupid and if they think about their beliefs they would change it and atheist are smart and kind and a very rational! Which this stereotype is not true! They're both smart atheists and they're both smart theists. I feel like the only reason why you believe this is to make yourself feel happy special or whatever want to study theology
(AKA studying a bunch of fairy tales and myths that delusional people believe in)
And honestly...
I know we disagree on a lot of things but really I'm not angry at you in the slightest. I just want you to understand how I feel and my solution to your problem... I wish you the best... thank you!
@@elijahd6936 Sorry I am done with you. There is no reason to further this discuss anything with you because you don't understand the topic
Write a book!
If there was a god to have such proposed properties its good to know there is a Christian concept & explanation for it.
SLAM DUNK!
THE MULTIVERSE THEORY BLOWN AWAY !!!!!!
What I really like about these Omni videos is that it demonstrates what we can discover about God. It is often assumed and vocalized by opponents to theism that even if we could rationally prove a God exists that it would be meaningless because we couldn't actually know anything about that God. That has always presented itself as assuming to much. These videos prove that we can learn a lot about God through these rational debates. Over time, we have received an interesting picture of him.
Speculation and pondering doesn't equal learning lol.
@@JwalinBhatt Your right. Speculation and pondering doesn't equal learning, but using logical deductive processes to arrive at a conclusion is.
@@blusheep2 the video, if you accept it to be correct which I don't for reasons I've mentioned in my other comment, at best shows that omniscience doesn't contradict with free will.
It doesn't show whether god is omniscient or not. Neither does it show whether we actually have free will or not.
@@JwalinBhatt Well no of course it doesn't. That wasn't its point. Other deductive arguments lead us to that conclusion. This paradox is addressing the defeaters of the argument that the "first cause" or "God," or the "maximally great being," is omniscient. Same for free will. There are other arguments for that.
As a side note, if there is no free will then neither one of us holds a rational point of view. We are programmed by chance or design to believe what we do. Debating anything with anybody is worthless because their responses don't come from intellectual thought but rather our genetic make up.
@@blusheep2 Ok let me ask you this, what did we actually get to know about god by this video?
The difference is that the barometer didn’t create the weather. Horrible false equivalence.
What exactly is omniscience, is it:
A) having absolute knowledge (ie. perceptual omniscience).
B) just having the power to have absolute knowledge alone, not actually having absolute knowledge (ie. conceptual omniscience).
Answer A is in line with the etymology and definition of omniscience.
Answer B, also known as inherent omniscience, is a later attenpt at redefining, as a solution for the problem that actual omniscience and the existence of free will are mutually exclusive.
Thank you for your video pointing this out!
You don’t need to experience something to know how it works.
I’ve never had my balls ripped off but I know it hurts like hell.
That explains god's lack of empathy.
It doesnt work. Imagine a device that has existed forever and will forever exist that knows the past, present and complete future.
Now imagine the device knows that you will elect CV instead of DS. Can you still change it?
Yes, in this case the device was wrong and not allknowing and can therefore not have omniscience.
No, in this case you dont have free will.
It's the same with god.
Why is the definition of omniscience is changed by JP Moreland and William
Lane Craig when it simply means all-knowing.
You still need to define All knowing.
Does God know that He doesn’t exist ?
Its like, sure you have made good points, but what about the whole tree thing are we just going to ignore that
3:27 another thing skipped over. This is directly spoken to in the Bible. It is said multiple times that everything is written, the end of days are coming (regardless of any choice or action by humanity). You are ignoring huge chunks of the Bible to claim there is not fatalism
So god can't create a world that has no evil when free will is taken into account...then how is he omnipotent when he can't even do that? Why bother creating a world in the first place knowing that evil and suffering are inevitable?
Because the Good is worth it.
For example, you have children even thou you know they will suffer, make others suffer, and there is a chance they will be evil people.
Yet you still have them, why? Because all of the Love and Happiness you will provide them and they will provide you and hopefully many others.
It’s all worth the risk.
The problem is anthropomorphing God into the finite, temporal and fallible will and image of man. That is what humanism does and it is the fountain of all heresy. God is not subject to time. He is beyond the bounds of time and space as they are both His Creation. God planned all things according the council of His OWN will. Creation is a book which has already been written. Us temporal creatures merely turn the pages as we experience time. Christ was determined to die for sin even before Creation for the Eternal Glory of the Father. God knows the hearts of all men past, present and future. There was no contingency in the death of Christ, the betrayal of Judas and the rejection of the Jews of Immanuel. All prophesy show is the plan of God which no one can escape. Just ask Jonah. What he did was all to God's glory and typified sinful man and the work of Christ.
I don’t know if you’ll see this, but I wanted to see if you had an answer to this issue I’ve been having regarding the attribute of omniscience in God. How can God be omniscient when we have the concept of unknown unknowns? These are things that we don’t know that we don’t know? How can God possibly know whether or not he has unknown unknowns when, by definition, these things are unknown? It seems to me that, because of the very concept, there is at least one thing God cannot know and that is whether he has unknown unknowns. Wouldn’t this make omniscience impossible?
I’m curious to see if you have any response to that because, currently, I’m really struggling to figure this out.
Thanks.
The possibility that an all-powerful being (or a mere computer programmer) exists means omniscience cannot.
An all-powerful being could create another being which mistakenly thinks itself omniscient, couldn't it? Then how would _any_ entity know for certain that possibility were not the reality? It could not.
The argument works equally well without an omniscient being, just substituting a programmer who would be 'all powerful' within their own simulation.
The possibility that an all-powerful being (or a mere computer programmer) exists means omniscience cannot.
An all-powerful being could create another being which mistakenly thinks itself omniscient, couldn't it? Then how would _any_ entity know for certain that possibility were not the reality? It could not.
The argument works equally well without an omniscient being, just substituting a programmer who would be 'all powerful' within their own simulation.
Matt Smith a omniscient being that doesn’t know it doesn’t know something is logically impossible and so doesn’t/cannot exist in the first place. Because by definition it’s not all knowing. Something logically impossible cannot exist. Eg square circle.
Is it impossible for the universal spirit to be omniscience ?if you write a computer program, do you not know the outcome of it ?
Imagine a super universal program. Would you not know it's infinite behavior and outcome ?
One argument that I hear probably more than I should is that the Bible is just a bunch of misunderstood alien encounters. I think it would be great to see you make a video on this.
This is how I've always read God saying He will harden Pharaoh's heart. As in, bringing Him up to pharaoh will result in the pharaoh taking offense at the idea that his godhood is being challenged, and his ego will prevent his heart from being open to what Moses is being sent to ask. His heart is not forcibly hardened by God but rather God simply being God hardens Pharaoh's heart through Pharaoh's own pride.
Four words: The life of Jesus
Are you going to make a “Did Jesus Exist” series with things like intro, historical evidence, answering objections, etc any time soon?
@Saint Dragon thats new testament reliability
How do u know ? Everyone thinks they got God figured out ,,what if God chose not to know, when he chose to give us free will ? Think about that
God doesn't just know every possible future, he knows which one will come to pass. Or he is not omniscient
Which means that those other allegedly-possible futures are in fact not possible at all, for if they were actually possible, one of them might come to pass, but then the omniscient god would be wrong.
Okay, yes, but there's a problem with that. I really hope someone can come into a conclusion because I'm going crazy.
God's knowledge of anything does not equal determinism BUT when we underline the fact that God is the CREATOR of the world I'll be making the choices in then the problem arises. If He knows my choices when creating the world then He's creating the world in which I'll make those choices necessarily. Our free will is gone.
Foreknowledge + World creation = determinism.
The only "solution" I arrived could be blasphemous but here it is in case someone cares: Maybe God, just like Jesus did when He came into the world, limits His omniscience in some way. By limiting His omniscience it wouldn't mean He's not omniscient because He would still have that capacity but He just wouldn't use it all but limit it to let our free will exist. In the same way that He's omnipotent but decides to not force us to anything and postpones His judgement for our sake (???).
I don't know. I would like to understand this and find an answer that is actually logical and not contradicting.
I'm curious are you a theist?
@@none377 I think so, yes
being smart means you know things,
being dumb means you don't know things,
playing dumb means you actually know things but you're acting as if you don't know anything
agreed?
@@MariaDalalai in the beginning jesus was the All knowing, he was the smartest but regrettably he's getting dumber over time
and then christians would be like: jesus is not dumb, he's just playing dumb! big difference, okay!
well, then a new question emerged
does jesus know when he's dumb? or when he's playing dumb, is he completely well aware of it? is he 100% dumb or 50% dumb?
in the beginning jesus was the smartest but getting dumber over time,
in the beginning homo sapiens was kinda dumb but getting smarter over time
it's kinda difficult for me to swallow a theological idea that promotes, god is limiting himself to look dumb
100% dumb? 50% dumb? 100% playing dumb? 50% playing dumb? or myb both 100% playing and dumb at the same time? superposition
Omniscience presupposes determinism
In determinism there are no alternative possibilities
But free will requires alternative options
So has God no free will? Is there no free will in Heaven?
personally, you should have just started with the Infinity War example, but the whole thing with that is its dependent on the choices on the avengers after thanos gets all the stones. God may actualize a world where minimal evil can be done, but it's up to the human being with free will to also make sure that minimal evil is done, it's as much god's responsibility as it is humans'. If our world is one where the lowest amount of evil can be done, then in that sense our world is determined. Our world may be free to do whatever within the bounds of our limitations, but the fact that God actualized the world in a way for so little evil to happen means we ourselves can't actualize as much evil as possible without that limit of evil already being there. If we can bring up as much evil as possible and there seems to be no limit to the evil, then we are in a timeline where God knows we are some kind of failed universe because either as much evil as we cause is the best scenario or clearly God should have done a better job in minimizing the evil in the world he actualizes. In Avengers: IW, Doctor Strange is not around to guide the avengers in the right direction to beat Thanos, so absolutely nothing is stopping the avengers from taking steps to fail. With Strange not in the picture, then the number of good scenarios to beat thanos actually goes up, not down, because no one could know who it was who would get snapped out of existence.
God, unlike Strange, is constantly around, and actually has a guiding hand in the way the universe pans out. But, like in IW, nothing is stopping humans to actualize as much evil as possible. If we do as much evil as we can, and there is still worse evil to be done, then we have no free will in that regard.
If our free will can affect on how God actualize a world to maximize the good in it, then we are only paraphrasing the argument into "Why free will causes no free will".
I loved that you bought up Molinism. Would you do a video defending Molinism from the old counterfactuals argument?
God already knows all of the choices you are going to make. You are incapable of making alternative choices and surprise god, otherwise he would not be omniscient
what's the test for omniscience then? even if you were omniscient there's no way to know if someone else is. and this list of attributes for god anyway, timeless, spaceless, immaterial, omnipresent, no one alive has met god, whose been feeding you this bunk?
Its not possible for god to be omniscient and at the same time we have still free will .Premise 1: God knows everything that is and will be, and he has always known this.
Therefore, everything that has ever happened was always fixed and unchangeable.
Conclusion: Free will is not possible
Did you watch the video? The video debunks this claim.
@@coolservantjesusswag2936it doesn’t appear that he did. He conflated absolute knowledge with non absolute knowledge. If you went back in time there is no guarantee that everything would be the same and you going back in time is evidence of that alone.
You left out the actual omniscience paradox that proves that even the definition of
“knowing all true propositions”
Is logically impossible.
The true omniscience paradox is incredibly similar to other paradoxes such as those raised by
- Gödel’s Incompleteness Theorems
- Turing’s Halting Problem
- Russels paradox
And most similarly
- The epistemic paradox
The true paradox of omniscience goes like this
Premise 1. Omniscience as commonly defined by Christian philosophers as knowing all true propositions
Premise2. Wether or not god knows all true propositions and is therefore omniscient is itself either a true or false proposition
Premise 3. In order to know that he knows ALL true propositions and is therefore omniscient, god would need to know that there is nothing he does not know.
Premise 4. There is no way for god to know something of which he is not aware he doesn’t know.
Premise 5. Even if there is no actual knowledge to know outside of God’s awareness he cannot know this fact because it is dependent on wether a variable outside of his awareness is true or false.
Premise 6. god cannot know if the proposition that he is omniscient is true
Conclusion. if god is omniscient and knows all true propositions then wether or not god is omniscient cannot be a true proposition and must instead be false. Therefore god is not omniscient
>Russels paradox
I don't know how the set of all sets not existing under ZFC has to do with omniscience. Premise 3 and 4 also beg the question by presupposing there is something that God does not know. This is a really stupid argument.
@@DorperSystems for Russell’s paradox you can think of it as defining the set of all sets as the set of all knowledge because similarly to how the set of all sets would necessarily contain the set of all sets that do not contain themselves, which Russell’s paradox proves results in a contradiction, the set of all knowledge would necessarily need to contain the set of all knowledge which is beyond knowing. Even if such a set of all knowledge beyond knowing is an empty set we can never actually define a boundary for such a set, any time we try to do so we must look for something outside the new boundary, essentially the set of all knowledge requires that which lies outside the set to also exist within the set even if the only thing outside the set of all knowledge is an empty set.
This also shows that you misunderstand premises 3 & 4 because it is not actually necessary to assume that anything actually exists outside of God’s knowledge in order to assess Wether or not god can actually have such knowledge.
The question we’re asking is NOT “can god know something he can’t know?”
Because you would be correct in saying that this argument would be begging the question, but once again that’s not the argument we’re making here.
Instead we are asking “is it possible for God to know that there is nothing he does not know?”
Theres no begging the question here this question is equivalent to asking “can God know that he is truly omniscient?”
Part of knowing you’re omniscient is knowing that there is nothing you don’t know, but this paradox proves that such knowledge impossible
@@DorperSystems also I would just like to point out calling an argument stupid just because you don’t understand it is not only unnecessary but also fallacious
@@someoneonyoutube8622 Russel's paradox only applies to the universal set due to Cantor's theorem failing. Not to any other sets. If you are saying that due to knowledge of the cardinality of the set growing every time, this is not true. If the knowledge set has a cardinality of 3 then we can say that the knowledge set contains 4 items and the final item being the knowledge of the cardinality of the set. However, God's knowledge is infinite, as Georg Cantor would have said. So the set is transfinite. "Even if such a set of all knowledge beyond knowing is an empty set we can never actually define a boundary for such a set." If the set is empty then the cardinality is zero. There, I found the boundaries. Maybe I am misunderstanding what you mean by boundary. It would be helpful if you can present your proof in first order logic.
@@someoneonyoutube8622 After re-reading your argument it seems more similar to Noel Plum's omniscience paradox (how does God know that he is not created by another God but made to think he is the only God? Like the idea of a Gnostic demiurge) Apologetics Squared has made a response to that paradox in video form from a non-classic theistic perspective if you want to check it out.