@@yag-yet_another_gamer I just switched my main laptop (that accounts for 99% of my computer usage time) from Ubuntu to Fedora to get KDE 6.2 instead of 5.27, but Ubuntu is a smoother experience for me with everything that involves non-free codecs.
Great to see other desktop environments making progress and adopting Wayland support. Especially considering the fact that many DEs don't have the same manpower and funding like GNOME and KDE do. Looking forward to the day when Xfce finally gets it
fwiw, Windows and MacOS do precisely the same desktop-as-a-file-manager thing! Windows has an unkillable "explorer.exe" process, and if you close every program on your Mac, you'll find it still shows Finder as active in the top menubar.
@@snotvlek4721Not necessarily, I believe task manager is just programmed to restart explorer after you kill it, but killing it by other means keeps it closed.
@@RandomGeometryDashStuff if you kill it, desktop dissapears. You entire desktop session is basically run inside explorer.exe, and windows (actuall, not tm microsoft) stuff handled by dwm.exe
I like this, I want more of this, I want people to bring back batshit crazy ricing on wayland through this, feels like everything has turned into just theming lately
i'm actually happy to see this. one of the main reasons i still use x11 is because i use xfce with awesome as the window manager, and i was starting to see cosmic as the only real option for me on wayland, so it's very cool to see that we'll be having some more options to do this kinds of setups under wayland
Yeah, I remeber Carl Richell specifically stated that all COSMIC programs are built to be independent from each other, and also built to be easily run/ported to other OS-es and other interfaces i.e Mobile.
I’d just like to interject for a moment. What you’re referring to as explorer.exe, is in fact, Windows Explorer or File Explorer, or as I’ve recently taken to calling it "Not Responding"
@@SIackware No joke... after running Linux as my daily for years and then having to use Windows 11 on a machine for work, it's painful just how poor of a product Windows is. Even just from a quality standpoint, not even discussing wither it's "features" are worth the time it took to break how things worked in Win10
@@EwanMarshallthe taskbar and start menu are also part of explorer.exe, if you probe around in it you'll find a lot of assets and strings referring to that
River is moving to having an external window manager process, using a custom wayland protocol for window management. I suspect this will make it much easier for people that just want to write _window managers_ and not compositors.
Xfce is exprcting to make their own compositor based on wlroots, which is why it is possible to run stuff like xfce4-panel under any wlroots based wayland compositor. On my old laptops the combo of labwc and xfce4 panel plus a bunch of other stuff like a screenlocker works really nicely.
This is great actually. There are more than enough desktop environments that just want to have everything set up for you. And I am a person that sometimes likes using xfce with another window manager. Having at least one option for this on Wayland is definitely something the world needed more than just another full desktop. Imo.
this model is just continuing the design philosophy of the X version. LXQt doesn't have its own window manager, it is strictly a DE, and usually comes with Openbox bundled by default. i'm glad they're sticking to their guns with this modular approach. now i need to look into which Wayland bspwm-like i prefer. or perhaps, there's also Arcan ...
Yooo, I've been waiting for this LXQt update for a few months now, glad to see it finally come to light. Sounds like a really useful concept, will try it out, especially the panel, because I very much dislike messing with the waybar configuration files
Isn't LXQt a Qt-based version of LXDE, the "Lightweight X11 Desktop Environment"? If that is true (which I'm not sure about), shouldn't it now be called "LWQt", replacing X11 with Wayland?
Not actually the whole, since even without it Windows still draws windows and window decorations (at least it did in Windows 7, but it may be that some weird hacks that were done to change the style of Windows 8, 10 and/or 11 do depend on explorer)
7:45 Hyprland just got a new protocol for setting the CTM (color transformation matrix). As it'll come in 0.45, it can't be used right now by Hyprland stable users. But for the people living on cutting edge, it works and there is already the hyprsunset utility around it.
The one problem that I have with Wayland is very much sub par support for Cintiqs (as well as other artist specific tooling (mainly related to monitors and colors, which is kinda a big deal). Under Xorg, I have for more options, far more abilities compared to Wayland and I don't really see that changing. And unfortunately that is either going to keep me on X or going back to where I don't want to go. Now, granted, that is a very specific use case, but I would argue an important one. It's not like Wayland is a young project either, I would have far more sympathy if it was. Even the xwayland layer always the best either. On some things, I could blame other companies, 3rd parties for support etc and them not getting their "stuff" together, but ones distros don't give options, knowing issues are out there, that transfers part of them blame to them.
oh cool, my main issue with sway when i used to use it was that it didn't have like any integration with the software i use, so currently i just run an LXDE/X11 setup, might try this out :)
Personally, as a long time *nix and Linux user I prefer this model for it's flexibility and that it creates a reason for compositors to support more Wayland functionality on one hand and specialise on the other. In my opinion we *need* the ability for desktops to evolve asynchronously with compositors and you need look no further than Gnome and it's inability to even testart itself without killing the user session to see why. Also, what's wrong with having a file manager handle your applications and the desktop? It's a tried and true method for not only Linux, but Mac OS (OSX split this off), Windows (Explorer) and even Amiga (Workbench).
Managing desktop shortcuts with the file manager makes perfect sense. It's obviously something copied from Windows, probably as far back as Win95, where shortcuts were first introduced. Shortcuts on Windows are just small binary files with the hidden extension .LNK, and the desktop and Start Menu are just directories. If you're a programmer implementing a desktop back in the late 1990s, why not copy what Windows is doing, given it seems to work pretty well there?
It's a full screen app that requires only the layer-shell protocol, so it's much simpler. A desktop, OTOH, requires tons of non-standard protocols in Wayland.
I think it's a model that should have been in place from day one. It is one of the fundamental design issues of Wayland. I wrote my own X11 DE specifically because none of the ones I tested worked the way I wanted to -- and I was able to do this because I was able to pick and choose components instead of being forced to build everything myself. So I'm using pcmanfm-qt as my file manager, Openbox as my window manager, Dunst as my notification manager, Picom as my compositor, et cetera. I only had to build a task switcher, an app menu, and a systray. (I wish I didn't have to build the systray. It's the one part of my setup that I'm not happy with. But I was never able to find a standalone X11 systray applet. And yes, it has to be systray, it can't be an appindicator panel.) That said: Qt has a Wayland compositor built in. There was no fundamental NEED for them to use this model. I think they specifically wanted to be compositor-agnostic instead of just not wanting to build one.
This comes with a problem, LXQt and LXDE work out of the box with Openbox, and can be easily switched to IceWM, Fluxbox, JWM and some others, but seeing as (speaking from experience) configuring Wayland compositors is a major pain to get anywhere, I just can't see any benefit to this as opposed to running just the compositor or staying on X11.
If _2_ _years_ of running LXQt on Wayland compositors (see my channel for the receipts) has taught me anything, it's that there's a night-and-day difference between "this as opposed to running just the compositor".
About shipping LXQt with different Wayland compositors on different distros - it's not a new thing for this DE. Different distros already ship it with different WMs. For example lubuntu ships it with Openbox, Debian ships it with XFWM and also I have seen a distro that ships it with KWin
For some reason, the gentoo lxqt-meta 2.0 package already depends on wayland, and there's no way to turn it off, so I had to disable the bulk desktop and pick-and-choose the components I wanted to keep and find replacements for the ones I couldn't, since I'm already settled into my X desktop and will be dead before I stop using it.
I'm not sure other mid-usage DEs are likely to follow LXQt's lead regarding compositors. The modern DE trend has been integration and really only LXDE/LXQt and MATE really don't care what you run-and MATE has its own custom WM because it forked from Gnome 2's Metacity, it just isn't fully married to it. Still wlroots might still wind up being a lot of the glue that holds them together as already seems pretty likely. What's kinda WILD is that DEs might follow LXQt's footsteps otherwise. GIMP devs said a GTK5 would happen "only if". The XApp project has representation of just about everybody that're interested in a "DE" save Gnome, and someone commented that Gnome's refusal to entertain anything GTK-related but Gnome will basically drive us all to port our stuff to Qt eventually anyway. Forking GTK3 has been considered repeatedly but the maintenance alone would be a lot of work and the new development to make GTK3 work as well as GTK4 and kinda Qt already do under Wayland is … well, the mid-use DEs don't have the resources for such a project right now. Nobody seems eager to do such a port as it'd require rewriting a bunch of stuff and it would take ages (see LXQt's progress), but XFCE in particular has been rewritten at least twice now, and MATE once. When it came up only a couple of people agreed (i.e. nobody's *eager* to do it) but … nobody suggested it's the wrong direction either. GTK being effectively a dead-end that will be abandoned sooner or later is on people's minds, and both XFCE and MATE have seen full rewrites at least once. So it's not impossible if GTK is going to become Gnome-only going forward.
I think think that this is the way of the future for development of existing X11 DEs that are migrating to wayland. I'm not so sure for average USERS of said DEs, but for DE devs to find what the pain points are and contribute to the compositors so they can add the functionality they need and/or to push for more protocols to move from internal to standard (with appropriate revisions, obviously). Eventually the DE might ship with a default compositor and leave it to advanced users to change the config files (or even offer a GUI option with a curated list of compositors that are working well enough - with a hidden override if necessary) to select the compositor they want. Eventually, maybe, most Wayland compositors (we might even drag mutter kicking and screaming) will adopt a standard set of protocols / APIs?
I think it was inevitably going to end up this way. Compositors benefit from imitating a shared platform similar to the one we had on X11, and the ones that choose not to (like Mutter, Muffin) were pretty much like that on X anyway. All a (simple) desktop environment is is a shell over a window manager that provides easy access to things you'd otherwise have to integrate yourself. It's only really the bigger desktop environments that have hard dependencies on their window managers.
Now it's LWQt LXDE (Lightweight X Desktop Environment) > LXQt (Lightweight X Desktop Environment with the Qt toolkit) > LWQt (Lightweight Wayland Desktop Environment with the Qt toolkit)
As long as the project hosts on their site, one version that’s pre-compiled let’s say with the K win base. Or something else I’m all for that. But without there being one that’s pre-configured in a standard way that you would expect I don’t find it that appealing. Though I must say I do actually really like LXQT even though I don’t daily drive it. But several times a year I do load it onto an SSD and play.
This situation where the role of window managers has been replaced by programs that also provide a bunch of other core features that desktops rely on and are hard to separate from specific desktops seems like an absolute mess. Why do Waylands have to be such a train wreck, and how did it get this bad without someone saying, "Screw this; I'm going to build a better X11 instead."
Might be tired of hearing this, but Wayland is (or was suppose to be) the "better X11." Go look up the X12 proposal or whatever you'd call it. Pretty similar to Wayland, just a different name. I think Brodie might even have a video about it somewhere. I think Nate Graham of KDE said it best in his "So let’s talk about this Wayland thing" blog post. The whole thing is worth a read, but I particularly like characterization of Wayland devs as "shell-shocked X developers."
@@obake6290 I know enough of the messy history of X development and X extensions and the fortune entries like, "Titanic. Hindenburg. X-Windows." to believe that the Wayland crew will eventually likewise deliver something so reliable that everyone takes it for granted, but my does it seem to have been a rockier rode than it needed to be.
the big question, how they are going to handle bugs and bugfixes? some people might report it to the LXQT team but if is with KWin for example, the KDE team can ignore the changes or might break something into plasma by trying to apply changes that solve a LXQT problem if that happens. The LXQT team must be humble to know when or how to integrate things on their desktop without any hacky workarounds or PR:s that affect others. I agree that reinvent the wheel isn:t efficient with all that fragmentation, but maybe this is a cool way to experiment with the concept.
They just use the protocols that are already available to port their X11 functionality to Wayland. So, if a custom KDE or wlroots Wayland extension works as it should in KDE or under wlroots, then it should also do so in/under LXQt. Thus, such "bugs and bugfixes" would be a matter of them reworking how they leverage the existing protocol extensions.
oft time I installed it pre-configured, so I had configuration files to work with, because the documentation wasn't 100% clear on the options or how they interfaced with other applications. "most people don't use desktop icons" speak for yourself. My desktop icons are my notepad of what new applications I should go back and finish testing 😆 (ok, maybe it's a graveyard of lost dreams, but I still "use" it)
I use XFCE and LXDE and wayland support is lacking. I dont know why people dont realize wayland is still experimental unless you navigate all the chaos. I just want it to work like KDE and Kwin. I dont want to debug 20 years of the graphics stack everytime I want a basic feature that used to exist
This sounds very interesting as a concept. And as a tinkerer I would probably have fun playing with it. But I'm not sure it's going to be practical for end users. Priority #1 for most users is for things to just work.
wayland - a bunch of half finished protocols and crutches that somewhat work if you don't demand anything and never poke at it x11 - just works. In X11 I can set my monitor to 75Hz refresh rate. In wayland? No idea how. In X11 programs running in terminals get their keys. In wayland some do, some don't. It is a mess. After all those years it is kind of hilarious.
X11 user here. Right now, X11 "works" on my setup, and is reliable. BUT, I would not say it works very great, especially for my wonky monitor setup. They have radically different DPIs, but X11 sucks at handling that, so I have to use xrandr to scale one of my monitors to get consistent scaling between the two. Effectively faking a higher-resolution display on that monitor in the same space. That's far from an ideal solution, especially for games. Wayland just does mixed DPI monitor setups better, hands down. There is some things I can say about Wayland's security model; X11's approach of letting any client do anything at any time is kind of terrible, but it makes it easy to implement many things in a desktop, like global hotkeys, tools like xdotool, and more. Wayland's other extreme makes it really hard to do these, so we now have to poke a bunch of holes into the original security model to get things done. I hope it can work out for Wayland, but I'm not as hopeful about that as I used to be. ...also, you not knowing how to change the refresh rate for your monitor under Wayland is a skill issue. :P
@@CatFace8885 no it is a 'X11 does everything I need and works perfectly' vs 'wayland sucks everywhere and I am unwilling to spend time on shitty google to make things halfway working' issue.
I sure love my desktop icons -- but way too many systems treat them as launchers you have to manually configure rather than a seamless extension of the filesystem with all the same features. And then there's GNOME (may its development cease) that was like We DoNt hAvE EnOuGH DeVeLoPEr HoURs To KeEp ThE iCoNS FeAuTuRE wE aLrEaDy HaVe So WeRe GOiNg To ShiP ReGrESsIoNS aNd CaLl It PrOgReSs.
also I have 0 desktop icons because I hate using a mouse Arch Hyprland with 0 desktop icons and shortcuts my main programs are binded to key combinations, and I have the rofi/wofi app launcher. I also don't have any status bar. I have Windows configured the same way with PowerToys and Flow app launcher.
Honestly how many LxQt users are out there? No shade, I proudly run Xfce, but this custom compositor scheme surely isn't going to be seen by many users in the wild I tend to wager.
@@Mark-4158 that's somehow less than I thought. though for comparison r/xfce only hasy 18 thousand members, r/kde has 118 thousand members and somehow r/gnome has less at 94 thousand.
That's why I think wayland actually sucks. While X11 really is a horrible outdated protocol and wayland protocol(s) is technically much better, XOrg is a great common point for things like window managers, panels, lock screens, etc making it a great core for Linux desktop ecosystem. Yes, it is an old messy implementation of old inferior protocol and is terrible graphics platform and it was used not because it is great but because there wasn't anything else to use. But just existence of separate graphics server that everyone is using was making Linux desktop ecosystem really awesome. With wayland there is no ecosystem anymore, there are separate small partially compatible ecosystems where everyone invents their own wheels using bearing that are not compatible with any other wheel unsurprisingly resulting in a horrible mess. Looking forward to someone realizing how old wayland is already so it definetely needs to be replaced by something newer and better.
Honestly was expecting more things to be modular like the lock screen, it has a protocol so you can use a third party and that should be the case for everything.
As is seen in my video, "XDG sound FX come to the WM!" (th-cam.com/video/d_XAfbZqv_U/w-d-xo.html), you still have your choice of (chosen compositor-compatible) panel and terminal. So, how "modular" the DE is/isn't simply wasn't a focus of Brodie's video.
@@stefanalecu9532 The correct answer is people that don't have work to do or have nothing better to do in their free time. Why would anyone , other than the people who choose to work on it, care about a DE? Is caring for an inanimate object a thing that healthy people do?
@@nobodyimportant7804this is overly judgmental. I work a full-time job in IT and a part-time job as a music instructor, and still have the time to mess around with random ass stuff like compositors, vms, 3d printing and modeling and graphics, gaming, ricing, and I'm getting a second bachelor's in IT. I had to stop socializing and gaming for 7 months. I'm introverted but it was still difficult to do and recently started socializing again lmfao, but you can have the time if you make the time. It just depends on what you're interested in. I enjoyed messing around with useless IT shit, it's a hobby and a job. I wish I had more time though, so I can sympathize with that. There really isn't enough time to do everything, so you have to make sacrifices, but sometimes they're dumb sacrifices like fucking around with different compositors LMFAO.
That’s what Mir is trying to be (seems like the most interesting Wayland thing to me - not that I’m gonna switch to Wayland any time soon bc I cba to change my setup and it still doesn’t seem ready)
> What to you think about this approach I seen other stories of Wayland integration to applications and games I think Wayland is an overhyped unfinished piece of crap which must not be used under any circumstances
.... how do you have an entire channel dedicated to Linux... and don't know that the G in Gnome is silent? It's not Guh-nome.... it's Gnome.. as in those little dwarf like fantasy creatures that some people have lawn ornaments of. This isn't a debate, it's not a case of "language is fluid"... it's a case of education, or the lack there of. Also, GNU is an acronym - it's not pronounced. You say the letters. IF it was pronounced, it'd follow the same rules as Gnome... it'd be pronounced like new. Again, this isn't a debate. It's not about how you feel about it. That's how it is, and if you don't like it, don't talk about linux, the groups, or any of that. I don't even care if the people who make it claim it's pronounced the wrong way, as is the case with GIF - Their lack of knowledge does not excuse the spreading of stupidity, it's not cute... it doesn't even sound good. It sounds like you're having a minor stroke every time you say Guh-nome. And GIF, as with GNU, is not pronounced any kind of way, its an acronym. So you pronounce it Gee-eye-eff. Look it up, you don't pronounce acronyms like words. And if your answer is anything but "Okay I'll change it"... such as "I'm gonna do it my way" well you should have thought of that before you decided to pretend to be a professional and deliver news about major technology.
@@x_voxelle_xPossibly... because it bothers people. 😂 We all have the ones that get to us. The guhnus and guhnomes don't bother me as much as Lunduke pronouncing Mozilla as if it's pizza 1000 times in a video about Firefox. It may explain my recent obsession with pizza. DAMMIT! 😂😅😂😅
No doubt The Primeagen would drive you absolutely nuts. BTW, acronyms are phonetically pronounced as words professionally all the time. People don't say "en aye ess aye" instead of NASA, or "en eye ess tee" instead of NIST.
Everytime Brodie mentions Mir, one of your favorite packages becomes Snap only on Ubuntu.
i mean, only around 2% of the people who watch this channel probably even use Ubuntu lmao.
I use arch btw
@@yag-yet_another_gamer
I just switched my main laptop (that accounts for 99% of my computer usage time) from Ubuntu to Fedora to get KDE 6.2 instead of 5.27, but Ubuntu is a smoother experience for me with everything that involves non-free codecs.
Mir gud
@@yag-yet_another_gamerI use XUbuntu because I'm a refugee from GNOME and slow to distro-hop on daily drivers.
Great to see other desktop environments making progress and adopting Wayland support. Especially considering the fact that many DEs don't have the same manpower and funding like GNOME and KDE do. Looking forward to the day when Xfce finally gets it
I believe Xfce is taking a similar approach and their goal is to have a 4.20 release with preliminary wayland support in december.
nice name, long live slackware
The most wicked user handle out there
@@ilia21-live ikr how did they get that handle 😮
@@olnnnI hope so, I much prefer it to lxqt myself.
fwiw, Windows and MacOS do precisely the same desktop-as-a-file-manager thing! Windows has an unkillable "explorer.exe" process, and if you close every program on your Mac, you'll find it still shows Finder as active in the top menubar.
windows explorer.exe is killable
@@RandomGeometryDashStuff it auto-restarts, effectively making it not permanently killable
@@snotvlek4721Not necessarily, I believe task manager is just programmed to restart explorer after you kill it, but killing it by other means keeps it closed.
@@RandomGeometryDashStuff if you kill it, desktop dissapears. You entire desktop session is basically run inside explorer.exe, and windows (actuall, not tm microsoft) stuff handled by dwm.exe
@@RandomGeometryDashStuffyou can literally replace it with another shell
I like this, I want more of this, I want people to bring back batshit crazy ricing on wayland through this, feels like everything has turned into just theming lately
I miss emerald and beryl
i'm actually happy to see this. one of the main reasons i still use x11 is because i use xfce with awesome as the window manager, and i was starting to see cosmic as the only real option for me on wayland, so it's very cool to see that we'll be having some more options to do this kinds of setups under wayland
Linux seems to have an extremely good outlook for the next few years.
@@YaySyu totally!
10:06 "Don't ever expect this feature to come to one of the big desktops" - COSMIC showed off exactly this feature at Ubuntu Summit today.
I'm still skeptical
@@Malix_Labs of?
Yeah, I remeber Carl Richell specifically stated that all COSMIC programs are built to be independent from each other, and also built to be easily run/ported to other OS-es and other interfaces i.e Mobile.
I wouid point out, on windows the native shell is explorer.exe the file manager.
I’d just like to interject for a moment. What you’re referring to as explorer.exe, is in fact, Windows Explorer or File Explorer, or as I’ve recently taken to calling it "Not Responding"
@@SIackware No joke... after running Linux as my daily for years and then having to use Windows 11 on a machine for work, it's painful just how poor of a product Windows is. Even just from a quality standpoint, not even discussing wither it's "features" are worth the time it took to break how things worked in Win10
@@SIackware Indeed, I gave the executable binary filename, but still makes the point of precisely what is handling desktop, and shortcuts on windows.
@@EwanMarshallthe taskbar and start menu are also part of explorer.exe, if you probe around in it you'll find a lot of assets and strings referring to that
@@mtarek2005 I know :D It is the shell after all.
River is moving to having an external window manager process, using a custom wayland protocol for window management. I suspect this will make it much easier for people that just want to write _window managers_ and not compositors.
Xfce is exprcting to make their own compositor based on wlroots, which is why it is possible to run stuff like xfce4-panel under any wlroots based wayland compositor. On my old laptops the combo of labwc and xfce4 panel plus a bunch of other stuff like a screenlocker works really nicely.
This is great actually. There are more than enough desktop environments that just want to have everything set up for you. And I am a person that sometimes likes using xfce with another window manager.
Having at least one option for this on Wayland is definitely something the world needed more than just another full desktop. Imo.
this model is just continuing the design philosophy of the X version. LXQt doesn't have its own window manager, it is strictly a DE, and usually comes with Openbox bundled by default. i'm glad they're sticking to their guns with this modular approach. now i need to look into which Wayland bspwm-like i prefer. or perhaps, there's also Arcan ...
Anything may be handled by a file manager since everything in our system is a file.
11:07 Now I know why Xfce 4.4 adding desktop icon support in Thunar was so huge! 💡
Yooo, I've been waiting for this LXQt update for a few months now, glad to see it finally come to light. Sounds like a really useful concept, will try it out, especially the panel, because I very much dislike messing with the waybar configuration files
Isn't LXQt a Qt-based version of LXDE, the "Lightweight X11 Desktop Environment"? If that is true (which I'm not sure about), shouldn't it now be called "LWQt", replacing X11 with Wayland?
Yeah I support LWQt rights
I mean, sure, but by that standard XFCE should also have been renamed GTCE two decades ago when it abandoned the XForms toolkit.
@@SIackwareLWQt++
LXQt was merger of the LXDE and Razor-qt projects
But then you couldn't call it "looks cute"
I see an cup of Yorkshire tea
Is brodie secretly saying that Wayland is an perfectly balenced protocol with no flaws
he's a true blue, fair dinkum Brit or something
Yorkshire Tea Gold is top-tier
As someone who doesn't live in the UK or in one of the Commonwealth Countries, Yorkshire Tea is amazing.
@@sprinklednights well it's not like that tea is actually from the UK, they just repackage tea from Africa and India
You mean perfectly balanced with no exploits 😂
Just like window's file manager is explorer.exe which also happens to be the whole desktop environment on windows
Not actually the whole, since even without it Windows still draws windows and window decorations (at least it did in Windows 7, but it may be that some weird hacks that were done to change the style of Windows 8, 10 and/or 11 do depend on explorer)
8:17 Wayfire is flying under the radar.
You said it right, Wayland features are incomplete
I like xfce, it's kinda underrated I feel. It's usually sold as "the DE for bad computers"
I haven't used it in ages (window managers, etc.) But I'd return in a heartbeat if I wanted a floating window desktop interface
For me it's the sanest desktop environment, beautifully simple
I like how stable it is despite still being packed with a lot of useful features and also being very customizable
Instead of starting from scratch, they will use what is already there. I like that. Hopefully, that table and those issues will improve with time.
LXQT! Glad to hear that.
7:45 Hyprland just got a new protocol for setting the CTM (color transformation matrix). As it'll come in 0.45, it can't be used right now by Hyprland stable users.
But for the people living on cutting edge, it works and there is already the hyprsunset utility around it.
Common Wayland protocols FTW
A dream cursed by Gnome...
ext-layer-shell when?
The one problem that I have with Wayland is very much sub par support for Cintiqs (as well as other artist specific tooling (mainly related to monitors and colors, which is kinda a big deal). Under Xorg, I have for more options, far more abilities compared to Wayland and I don't really see that changing. And unfortunately that is either going to keep me on X or going back to where I don't want to go. Now, granted, that is a very specific use case, but I would argue an important one. It's not like Wayland is a young project either, I would have far more sympathy if it was. Even the xwayland layer always the best either.
On some things, I could blame other companies, 3rd parties for support etc and them not getting their "stuff" together, but ones distros don't give options, knowing issues are out there, that transfers part of them blame to them.
oh cool, my main issue with sway when i used to use it was that it didn't have like any integration with the software i use, so currently i just run an LXDE/X11 setup, might try this out :)
Personally, as a long time *nix and Linux user I prefer this model for it's flexibility and that it creates a reason for compositors to support more Wayland functionality on one hand and specialise on the other.
In my opinion we *need* the ability for desktops to evolve asynchronously with compositors and you need look no further than Gnome and it's inability to even testart itself without killing the user session to see why.
Also, what's wrong with having a file manager handle your applications and the desktop? It's a tried and true method for not only Linux, but Mac OS (OSX split this off), Windows (Explorer) and even Amiga (Workbench).
A file manager used to launch applications? Did I forget to mention explorer.exe?
So, I guess the message is that X11 is still better.
Managing desktop shortcuts with the file manager makes perfect sense. It's obviously something copied from Windows, probably as far back as Win95, where shortcuts were first introduced. Shortcuts on Windows are just small binary files with the hidden extension .LNK, and the desktop and Start Menu are just directories. If you're a programmer implementing a desktop back in the late 1990s, why not copy what Windows is doing, given it seems to work pretty well there?
Oh yes, now I can use cage as a compositor. Finally.
the loss of flexibility is one of the main annoyances I have with Wayland.
I really hope they succeed with this approach.
LXQt's approach kinda reminds me about SDDM, which lets you select a wayland compositor of your choice to host the login screen aswell.
It's a full screen app that requires only the layer-shell protocol, so it's much simpler. A desktop, OTOH, requires tons of non-standard protocols in Wayland.
LXQt brings X11 approach to Wayland
I think it's a model that should have been in place from day one. It is one of the fundamental design issues of Wayland. I wrote my own X11 DE specifically because none of the ones I tested worked the way I wanted to -- and I was able to do this because I was able to pick and choose components instead of being forced to build everything myself. So I'm using pcmanfm-qt as my file manager, Openbox as my window manager, Dunst as my notification manager, Picom as my compositor, et cetera. I only had to build a task switcher, an app menu, and a systray. (I wish I didn't have to build the systray. It's the one part of my setup that I'm not happy with. But I was never able to find a standalone X11 systray applet. And yes, it has to be systray, it can't be an appindicator panel.)
That said: Qt has a Wayland compositor built in. There was no fundamental NEED for them to use this model. I think they specifically wanted to be compositor-agnostic instead of just not wanting to build one.
This comes with a problem, LXQt and LXDE work out of the box with Openbox, and can be easily switched to IceWM, Fluxbox, JWM and some others, but seeing as (speaking from experience) configuring Wayland compositors is a major pain to get anywhere, I just can't see any benefit to this as opposed to running just the compositor or staying on X11.
If _2_ _years_ of running LXQt on Wayland compositors (see my channel for the receipts) has taught me anything, it's that there's a night-and-day difference between "this as opposed to running just the compositor".
About shipping LXQt with different Wayland compositors on different distros - it's not a new thing for this DE. Different distros already ship it with different WMs. For example lubuntu ships it with Openbox, Debian ships it with XFWM and also I have seen a distro that ships it with KWin
For some reason, the gentoo lxqt-meta 2.0 package already depends on wayland, and there's no way to turn it off, so I had to disable the bulk desktop and pick-and-choose the components I wanted to keep and find replacements for the ones I couldn't, since I'm already settled into my X desktop and will be dead before I stop using it.
I'm not sure other mid-usage DEs are likely to follow LXQt's lead regarding compositors. The modern DE trend has been integration and really only LXDE/LXQt and MATE really don't care what you run-and MATE has its own custom WM because it forked from Gnome 2's Metacity, it just isn't fully married to it. Still wlroots might still wind up being a lot of the glue that holds them together as already seems pretty likely.
What's kinda WILD is that DEs might follow LXQt's footsteps otherwise. GIMP devs said a GTK5 would happen "only if". The XApp project has representation of just about everybody that're interested in a "DE" save Gnome, and someone commented that Gnome's refusal to entertain anything GTK-related but Gnome will basically drive us all to port our stuff to Qt eventually anyway. Forking GTK3 has been considered repeatedly but the maintenance alone would be a lot of work and the new development to make GTK3 work as well as GTK4 and kinda Qt already do under Wayland is … well, the mid-use DEs don't have the resources for such a project right now.
Nobody seems eager to do such a port as it'd require rewriting a bunch of stuff and it would take ages (see LXQt's progress), but XFCE in particular has been rewritten at least twice now, and MATE once. When it came up only a couple of people agreed (i.e. nobody's *eager* to do it) but … nobody suggested it's the wrong direction either. GTK being effectively a dead-end that will be abandoned sooner or later is on people's minds, and both XFCE and MATE have seen full rewrites at least once. So it's not impossible if GTK is going to become Gnome-only going forward.
Seems pretty cool. I've been looking for a way that I can use Niri and still have a desktop environment for a while now.
I think think that this is the way of the future for development of existing X11 DEs that are migrating to wayland. I'm not so sure for average USERS of said DEs, but for DE devs to find what the pain points are and contribute to the compositors so they can add the functionality they need and/or to push for more protocols to move from internal to standard (with appropriate revisions, obviously). Eventually the DE might ship with a default compositor and leave it to advanced users to change the config files (or even offer a GUI option with a curated list of compositors that are working well enough - with a hidden override if necessary) to select the compositor they want. Eventually, maybe, most Wayland compositors (we might even drag mutter kicking and screaming) will adopt a standard set of protocols / APIs?
I think it was inevitably going to end up this way. Compositors benefit from imitating a shared platform similar to the one we had on X11, and the ones that choose not to (like Mutter, Muffin) were pretty much like that on X anyway. All a (simple) desktop environment is is a shell over a window manager that provides easy access to things you'd otherwise have to integrate yourself. It's only really the bigger desktop environments that have hard dependencies on their window managers.
Now it's LWQt
LXDE (Lightweight X Desktop Environment) > LXQt (Lightweight X Desktop Environment with the Qt toolkit) > LWQt (Lightweight Wayland Desktop Environment with the Qt toolkit)
XFCE never changed theirs (XForms Common Environment ) to GCE of whatever.
It would be cool if you made video with overview and explanation of all Wayland protocols
As long as the project hosts on their site, one version that’s pre-compiled let’s say with the K win base. Or something else I’m all for that. But without there being one that’s pre-configured in a standard way that you would expect I don’t find it that appealing.
Though I must say I do actually really like LXQT even though I don’t daily drive it. But several times a year I do load it onto an SSD and play.
This situation where the role of window managers has been replaced by programs that also provide a bunch of other core features that desktops rely on and are hard to separate from specific desktops seems like an absolute mess. Why do Waylands have to be such a train wreck, and how did it get this bad without someone saying, "Screw this; I'm going to build a better X11 instead."
Because people don't want to land in an XKCD 927 situation.
@@aDivineDragoness competing standards are better than a broken solution and a legacy trashpile
Most people want a _seamless_ computing experience that "just works," not a(nother) DIY project. ⏳
Might be tired of hearing this, but Wayland is (or was suppose to be) the "better X11." Go look up the X12 proposal or whatever you'd call it. Pretty similar to Wayland, just a different name. I think Brodie might even have a video about it somewhere.
I think Nate Graham of KDE said it best in his "So let’s talk about this Wayland thing" blog post. The whole thing is worth a read, but I particularly like characterization of Wayland devs as "shell-shocked X developers."
@@obake6290 I know enough of the messy history of X development and X extensions and the fortune entries like, "Titanic. Hindenburg. X-Windows." to believe that the Wayland crew will eventually likewise deliver something so reliable that everyone takes it for granted, but my does it seem to have been a rockier rode than it needed to be.
You should check out the wayland build of Enlightenment!
the big question, how they are going to handle bugs and bugfixes? some people might report it to the LXQT team but if is with KWin for example, the KDE team can ignore the changes or might break something into plasma by trying to apply changes that solve a LXQT problem if that happens. The LXQT team must be humble to know when or how to integrate things on their desktop without any hacky workarounds or PR:s that affect others. I agree that reinvent the wheel isn:t efficient with all that fragmentation, but maybe this is a cool way to experiment with the concept.
I guess the question is how much market share has in order to be a problem.
I always found it cool, but never could use it for daily desktop.
They just use the protocols that are already available to port their X11 functionality to Wayland. So, if a custom KDE or wlroots Wayland extension works as it should in KDE or under wlroots, then it should also do so in/under LXQt. Thus, such "bugs and bugfixes" would be a matter of them reworking how they leverage the existing protocol extensions.
To a Mac user, having desktop icons handled by the file manager doesn't seem weird at all. Why would you do it any other way?
Most people don't use desktop icons? When did that happen?
I think it would be cool if I could use Hyprland for its superior window manager without the need to configure literally every DE element.
11:20 I mean, this is how they handle it on Windows. I mean hell, if explorer crashes, you loose basically your whole desktop.
oft time I installed it pre-configured, so I had configuration files to work with, because the documentation wasn't 100% clear on the options or how they interfaced with other applications.
"most people don't use desktop icons" speak for yourself. My desktop icons are my notepad of what new applications I should go back and finish testing 😆 (ok, maybe it's a graveyard of lost dreams, but I still "use" it)
I like the way xfce is planning on doing things: a!low switching to other compositors, but still provide xfwm, ported to wayland
I route all downloads to my desktop to force me to take care of them immediately
None of this affects my install of CDE over XFree86, right ?...
11:49 "Most people don't have desktop icons anyway" is a wild take
I proudly keep my desktop clutter-free
He probably meant most tiling window managers
@@moussaadem7933and GNOME
@@DryPaperHammerBro I don't. I actually use mine. Seems like a waste, to not use all the tools available to you.
@@moussaadem7933 Sure, but that's a tiny fraction of a tiny fraction of users.
"most people don't run desktop icons" oh... Brodie.... smh.... 😂
I use XFCE and LXDE and wayland support is lacking. I dont know why people dont realize wayland is still experimental unless you navigate all the chaos. I just want it to work like KDE and Kwin. I dont want to debug 20 years of the graphics stack everytime I want a basic feature that used to exist
Hm. That actually means that in some unknown future xfce+sway may become a reality.
I wonder if it works with Theseus Ship/KwinFT or other COMO based compositors.
I'd like to see a hyprland based de, maybe even from Vax himself
This sounds very interesting as a concept. And as a tinkerer I would probably have fun playing with it.
But I'm not sure it's going to be practical for end users. Priority #1 for most users is for things to just work.
LXQt is designed for _its_ users, not "most users" (unlike, perhaps, GNOME and KDE).
@@Mark-4158 fair enough. No harm in having smaller projects for niche audiences that appreciate them.
tldr: Wayland is ready for very basic users, but the migration cost for small projects is very very high.
wayland - a bunch of half finished protocols and crutches that somewhat work if you don't demand anything and never poke at it
x11 - just works.
In X11 I can set my monitor to 75Hz refresh rate. In wayland? No idea how. In X11 programs running in terminals get their keys. In wayland some do, some don't. It is a mess.
After all those years it is kind of hilarious.
monitor settings are different for each compositor
X11 user here. Right now, X11 "works" on my setup, and is reliable. BUT, I would not say it works very great, especially for my wonky monitor setup. They have radically different DPIs, but X11 sucks at handling that, so I have to use xrandr to scale one of my monitors to get consistent scaling between the two. Effectively faking a higher-resolution display on that monitor in the same space. That's far from an ideal solution, especially for games. Wayland just does mixed DPI monitor setups better, hands down.
There is some things I can say about Wayland's security model; X11's approach of letting any client do anything at any time is kind of terrible, but it makes it easy to implement many things in a desktop, like global hotkeys, tools like xdotool, and more. Wayland's other extreme makes it really hard to do these, so we now have to poke a bunch of holes into the original security model to get things done. I hope it can work out for Wayland, but I'm not as hopeful about that as I used to be.
...also, you not knowing how to change the refresh rate for your monitor under Wayland is a skill issue. :P
Well, linux is a bunch of hacks put together to begin with, so in a way it kinda fits
@@Liniya. I have a feeling that most OSes are like this. But you only notice it with Linux because it's developed in the open :P
@@CatFace8885 no it is a 'X11 does everything I need and works perfectly' vs 'wayland sucks everywhere and I am unwilling to spend time on shitty google to make things halfway working' issue.
Thank you for using firefox.
Still waiting on XFCE wayland support... WFCE?
i don't know a single person without at least a few desktop icons
I don't use icons at all and try to disable them whenever possible, so hi
I sure love my desktop icons -- but way too many systems treat them as launchers you have to manually configure rather than a seamless extension of the filesystem with all the same features.
And then there's GNOME (may its development cease) that was like We DoNt hAvE EnOuGH DeVeLoPEr HoURs To KeEp ThE iCoNS FeAuTuRE wE aLrEaDy HaVe So WeRe GOiNg To ShiP ReGrESsIoNS aNd CaLl It PrOgReSs.
That's because they aren't single, they're married
also I have 0 desktop icons because I hate using a mouse
Arch Hyprland with 0 desktop icons and shortcuts
my main programs are binded to key combinations, and I have the rofi/wofi app launcher. I also don't have any status bar.
I have Windows configured the same way with PowerToys and Flow app launcher.
I don't have any.
Aaaaactualy Hyprland declared independence from wlroots, right?
Honestly how many LxQt users are out there? No shade, I proudly run Xfce, but this custom compositor scheme surely isn't going to be seen by many users in the wild I tend to wager.
r/LXQt currently has about 1.3 thousand members.
@@Mark-4158 that's somehow less than I thought. though for comparison r/xfce only hasy 18 thousand members, r/kde has 118 thousand members and somehow r/gnome has less at 94 thousand.
02:15 but kde volume popup will not be in correct place
Most people dont run drsktop icons? Have you seen the desktop of an average windows user?
That's why I think wayland actually sucks. While X11 really is a horrible outdated protocol and wayland protocol(s) is technically much better, XOrg is a great common point for things like window managers, panels, lock screens, etc making it a great core for Linux desktop ecosystem. Yes, it is an old messy implementation of old inferior protocol and is terrible graphics platform and it was used not because it is great but because there wasn't anything else to use. But just existence of separate graphics server that everyone is using was making Linux desktop ecosystem really awesome. With wayland there is no ecosystem anymore, there are separate small partially compatible ecosystems where everyone invents their own wheels using bearing that are not compatible with any other wheel unsurprisingly resulting in a horrible mess. Looking forward to someone realizing how old wayland is already so it definetely needs to be replaced by something newer and better.
Wayland - replacing proven complication by feature lacking complication.
*feature incomplete
No reason lacking features can't be added ;)
Bring back videos about utilities we can actually install and use
He reports on open source news and new software?
So becoming Generic Linux TH-camr #4839?
I feel like The Linux Cast fills that niche. Honestly I like the news/explainer content better, but to each their own.
Honestly was expecting more things to be modular like the lock screen, it has a protocol so you can use a third party and that should be the case for everything.
As is seen in my video, "XDG sound FX come to the WM!" (th-cam.com/video/d_XAfbZqv_U/w-d-xo.html), you still have your choice of (chosen compositor-compatible) panel and terminal. So, how "modular" the DE is/isn't simply wasn't a focus of Brodie's video.
Who has time to spend trying different compositors and hope that it isn't a buggy mess?
People that actually care about LXQt instead of LXDE
@@stefanalecu9532 The correct answer is people that don't have work to do or have nothing better to do in their free time.
Why would anyone , other than the people who choose to work on it, care about a DE? Is caring for an inanimate object a thing that healthy people do?
@@nobodyimportant7804this is overly judgmental.
I work a full-time job in IT and a part-time job as a music instructor, and still have the time to mess around with random ass stuff like compositors, vms, 3d printing and modeling and graphics, gaming, ricing, and I'm getting a second bachelor's in IT.
I had to stop socializing and gaming for 7 months. I'm introverted but it was still difficult to do and recently started socializing again lmfao, but you can have the time if you make the time. It just depends on what you're interested in.
I enjoyed messing around with useless IT shit, it's a hobby and a job. I wish I had more time though, so I can sympathize with that. There really isn't enough time to do everything, so you have to make sacrifices, but sometimes they're dumb sacrifices like fucking around with different compositors LMFAO.
i cannot wait for something better to replace wayland
introducing waybetterland, each protocol is required to have at least 5 years of discussion before any development work can be done.
Time to build THE Wayland server!
That’s what Mir is trying to be (seems like the most interesting Wayland thing to me - not that I’m gonna switch to Wayland any time soon bc I cba to change my setup and it still doesn’t seem ready)
systemd-waylandd?
hi
Holy cow … this nonsense is a pseudosolution created by developers for developers. Not one single bit of this should be user-facing.
> What to you think about this approach
I seen other stories of Wayland integration to applications and games
I think Wayland is an overhyped unfinished piece of crap which must not be used under any circumstances
.... how do you have an entire channel dedicated to Linux... and don't know that the G in Gnome is silent? It's not Guh-nome.... it's Gnome.. as in those little dwarf like fantasy creatures that some people have lawn ornaments of. This isn't a debate, it's not a case of "language is fluid"... it's a case of education, or the lack there of. Also, GNU is an acronym - it's not pronounced. You say the letters. IF it was pronounced, it'd follow the same rules as Gnome... it'd be pronounced like new. Again, this isn't a debate. It's not about how you feel about it. That's how it is, and if you don't like it, don't talk about linux, the groups, or any of that. I don't even care if the people who make it claim it's pronounced the wrong way, as is the case with GIF - Their lack of knowledge does not excuse the spreading of stupidity, it's not cute... it doesn't even sound good. It sounds like you're having a minor stroke every time you say Guh-nome. And GIF, as with GNU, is not pronounced any kind of way, its an acronym. So you pronounce it Gee-eye-eff. Look it up, you don't pronounce acronyms like words.
And if your answer is anything but "Okay I'll change it"... such as "I'm gonna do it my way" well you should have thought of that before you decided to pretend to be a professional and deliver news about major technology.
A lot of Linux people pronounce it as "guh-nome" and I wish I knew why. It bothers me.
@@x_voxelle_xPossibly... because it bothers people. 😂 We all have the ones that get to us. The guhnus and guhnomes don't bother me as much as Lunduke pronouncing Mozilla as if it's pizza 1000 times in a video about Firefox. It may explain my recent obsession with pizza. DAMMIT! 😂😅😂😅
10/10 artistic rant.
No doubt The Primeagen would drive you absolutely nuts. BTW, acronyms are phonetically pronounced as words professionally all the time. People don't say "en aye ess aye" instead of NASA, or "en eye ess tee" instead of NIST.
🤓