How to Safely Use Stay Alives with LokSound Decoders (128)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 ก.ค. 2024
- LokSound decoders have been rapidly gaining popularity and a lot of model railroaders seem to be increasingly interested in installing stay alive devices along with them to help get over dirty, unpowered, or uneven track. However because of a peculiarity in their design you can all too easily blow a LokSund decoder if you don't take certain precautions or use an ESU PowerPack stay alive. In this video I'll share with you the potential issues and give you some tips on how to safely install and use stay alives and PowerPacks with your LokSound decoders.
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A very detailed overview, broken down well enough that anyone can understand. Great video, Larry. Keep 'em coming!
Thanks for the great insights into stay alive installations with LokSound decoders!!!
I always wondered why the Loksound ones had 3 wires. Great video !
Well done video, thank you for posting. Very helpful!
Great video. I have an Atlas HO Scale MP15DC locomotive I added a DCC to. It would get real jumpy in my yard where #4 turnouts are while I put leads on every turnout and is over wired, the locomotive is just too short and light to keep electrical contact with the rail. TCS built in Keep alive on the decoder saved my life, and patience and now the locomotive runs great in the yard. Before i used two locos, one to nudge the other, now I can go solo! (yes my track is super clean and soldered!)
I have several $300+ locomotives with factory Loksound where just a momentary dip in power and the sound resets. I have found the easiest solution is to never again buy anything with a Loksound decoder! Converting all my locomotives with their bargain basement sound decoders is a costly lesson I have no intention of repeating. It doesn’t shock me anymore when the DCC ready versions of new releases sell out immediately while the Loksound equipped models are still available months after release.
Odd, I have several locos with factory equipped LokSound decoders as well as several with decoders that I have installed myself and in general they are my favorite locos that perform as well as my locos with SoundTraxx and TCS decoders. Not sure what is causing your problems but I doubt it is the decoders. There can be a number if other issues with locos, layout wiring, and track cleanliness that can cause problems like what you describe.
Thanks for posting this, it was really helpful and put together very well.
I am working on a DCC + sound project for a 10 ton Davenport siderod gas mechanical in HOn30 using a LokSound 5 Nano. Yes it's insanely small. I was hoping to use a small bank of tantalum surface mount capacitors with the alternate wiring scheme you show at the end of the video. But I gotta tell ya... even after pumping the system up to the full 2200uF recommended I BARELY get any run time. I suspect the resistor in the circuit is eating the available charge. My TSU1100 with much less capacitor capacity is sustained considerably longer without power.
For my little project I may purchase an ESU 54671 and see if I can hack it with the smaller tantalum caps to get it to fit. Hopefully it will run longer with no power.
You are correct that you need to disconnect the non-ESU capacitor bank when programming. There is no danger to the DCC module but it will resist programming changes if you don't. This was pointed out on a dealer's website and I found it to be 100% true in practice.
Great video!
-DTJ
At this point I wish manufactures would build in the keep alives.
They’ll eventually get there once component size goes down and cost does too. Right now TCS offers versions of their WOWSound decoders with or without KAs and their motherboards have them too. since their installation kits use their motherboards they all have KAs. I am amazed that ESU still hasn’t provided any sort of socket for attaching stay alives. Forcing modelers to make solder connections to such small pads is just asking for problems.
ScaleTrains locomotives have PowerPack capacitors standard.
ESU has a new Direct with PowerPack board now available
Great video Larry- having blown a loksound whilst soldering, surely it would make sense for ESU to simply add the 3 wires to the decoder for easy instalment of a power pack/stay alive?
I always use keep alive when I can I love switching even with electro frogs I still get light flicker and little hiccups.. looks like I’ll be sticking to tsunami for sound even if it’s not 100% right
My takeaway from this is avoid using an ESU Loksound decoder. And before Loksound growls at Larry about my comment, he never said anything negative about ESU.
Great video, as info sadly Matthew Herman and Alec are No Longer with ESU, let go early 2023. (No Details)
Don't know the details but it's sad because Matthew and Alec were great reps and support contacts. Also there has been a price increase across all of ESU products. Just a heads up. This Video is still super helpful.
Had not heard that, great loss to ESU as far as I can see. Matt did a lot to promote LokSound and to record new sound projects.
Very good video. But this is a little disappointing as I have been using TCS with TCS motherboards. I recently tried a Loksound V5 and simply swapped it with one of my TCS 21 pin decoders. worked great and sounded great until I tried to program it.... wish I had found this limitation first. But the part that is disappointing is the fact that most of my locos have TCS motherboards with build in keep alives. I thought it would be an easy conversion if i decided to go with ESU. I guess not. Time to re-think things I guess. Thanks for the Video!
Yes, unfortunately ESU is off by itself when it comes to the way keep alives are handled.
Hi Larry. I do not power route my turnout frogs, & I do not, generally install KA s or P. packs. With locomotive pickups on all diesel wheels, these days, & on steamers, pickups on all drivers & tender wheels, I have found little need for p packs. Switchers are good to have, if possible, butoo t I have 4 Rivarossi b. boys, that have major pickup problems & have "exprimented" with adapting the tender wheels for pickup, with mediocre success. I am wanting to to put Loksound 5 in, maybe, 1 or 2 of the b. boys, WITH the power packs, to help solve the design flaw, of too little pickups, on the loco drivers. They were made with only 4 drivers picking up current,IF the pickups are in good condition,& usually there isat least one pickup, not working. The locos have a pretty good mechanism, so I might try one, first, & see how it works out, but generally, I dont worry too much about KA s, myself. Thanks for the video, cheers Michael NZ
Great video! Since the BLI Go Pack has three wires as well (presumably for the same purpose as the loksound power pack?), can you use the BLI Go Pack on a loksound decoder safely instead of the loksound power pack? BLI Go Pack seems to be more readily available.
I have no idea how those work and if they would be compatible with the LokSound decoders. Only BLI could tell you that a d they probably don’t know. The only 3 wire stay alives I know of that are advertised as being compatible are those made by DCC Concepts and possibly Lenz.
Nice vid.
What is the electronic difference between Loksound and other KAs?
As I said in the video the 3rd white wire turns the stay alive off during programming and I think in analog mode. Other than that their electronics is a mystery. I asked Matt Herman about them and he said that the ESU electronics engineers won’t even tell him how they work!
I rarely use KA either, when i do i program the lok 5 FIRST then install KA mostly just yard switchers not used often. I need only program once.
Yes, that really is the best solution since you get all the major programming out of the way before adding the KA.
Legit question- I'm trying to install a TCS KA4 into a locomotive that has a standard LokSound V4 decoder. I followed your video (for wiring) as well as the original ESU manual. Problem is- the ESU manual says I have to have 2200uf capacitors and numerous resistors into my installation- all of which I do not have, or cannot easily access. Do I need to install said items into my installation in order for it to work, or can I just go without? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
What you are referring to is their oversized stay alive option. You do not need all of that with a stay alive circuit. However as I said in the video you are violating the warranty by not using one of their stay alives or circuit they recommend.
Hello
thanks for this video and those explanations about the 3 wires design
I found it because I'm trying to install a LaisDCC KungFu inside a 140C from Hornby Jouef. There is not a lot of space and one of the KungFu fits. It works well after adjusting CV113 on the decoder alimentation and sound, but not on the motor as I would have expected.
I've followed all the instructions on the decoder manual (CV31, 32, 113, 339) but I couldn't make it work for the motor. Does anyone know how to achieve this ?
I have never used them so cannot comment.
There have been many questions on using an ESU decoder with a TCS Motherboard. Do you have any insight into this. I have always reccomended against doing it.
Since TCS adopted the ESU 22MTC pin layout they theoretically would be compatible except for the fact the TCS motherboards have the keep alive circuit built in. So that means you run a high risk of blowing the decoder during programming.
So do you think it would be OK to do a Advanced consisting(entering CVS) without burning these decoders up with a TCS keep alive and did all my major programming before I put the TCS keep alive in the locomotive
It may not work since you may need a load such as a motor on the decoder for programming to work.
Larry, do you know where to connect a PowerPack capacitor to the LokSound Essential Sound Unit? I have a couple of the Walthers Mainline NW2 switchers that came out recently. They run and sound great, but I don't know where to connect the PowerPack capacitor. I bought a couple of the NW2's that were DCC ready and I popped in a LokSound micro with the capacitor, but I had to put the capacitor in the cab. I also took out the LokSound Essential Sound Unit out of another NW2 and just put the LokSound micro in with a capacitor and was able to squeeze it in the hood area. This was a big wiring job though. regards, NS.
I am sorry but I haven’t had time to follow up on your comment. I can say that I’ve never worked with one of those decoders so I don’t know what provisions they may or may not have for adding a PowerPack. The folks at LokSound USA may be able to help though. Sorry I can’t be any more help.
@@TheDCCGuy No problem! Those are new budget decoders that I've seen in Walthers Mainline locomotives, I'll try to contact LokSound. regards, NS.
I apologize for replying to an older post, but I think it’s valuable to know about what I am finding with Walthers Mainline DCC/Sound equipped. I purchased an NW2 2 years ago, and 2 sets of F7A/B units end of last year. I was being cheap and decided to move a sound decoder out of a B unit into an older SD-7. I put a LokPilot 5 basic in the B unit. I used a decoder buddy (v5) to make life easier for the SD-7 install. I built a keep alive and installed it, and it didn’t help, as soon as the train would be lifted off of the tracks the light would go out.
Here is what I have found: The ESU decoders have CV 113 for “Power Fail Bypass”. The value of that CV determines the amount of time the loco will keep operating. A value of 64 is slightly longer than 2 seconds. Here’s the point. On my Walthers Mainline locos, the CV reads as having the value of 0. I haven’t been able to change that value. I can change that value on the LokPilot 5 Basic decoder, and the keep alive does keep it alive.
Long story short, I don’t think you can add a keep alive to a Walthers Mainline DCC/Sound equipped loco, because you can’t put a value in CV 113. Hopefully this could change in the future, but as it is, I’m done buying Walthers Mainline DCC/Sound locos. 😢
@@eccentrictodd7220 The budget LokSound ESU (Essential Sound Unit) does not allow a capacitor to be added as far I know. Separate note, when I do connect an ESU power pack capacitor to an LokSound 5 processor, it usually does not require any additional programming. I recently put one on a Rapido locomotive that had a LS5 processor, but I had to do the programming shown on the instructions for the ESU power pack in order for it to work.
@@eccentrictodd7220This sounds like ESU is intentionally locking a CV to force you to buy a new decoder from them. If true, it wouldn’t shock me considering the business practices of most European based model companies.
Hi Larry, I could use the PDF form to attach a PowerPack to a Decoder Buddy, I'm using an older Lok Select 21pin on an early decoder buddy as well. I tried your website you mentioned but it was not available. Any other way to reach you?
I added the pdf to my website so check it again. You also may find more on the Decoder Buddy website.
As popular as this is, I'm surprised the loco manufacturers wouldn't offer keep-alives and LokSound decoders pre-installed as an option! (or DO they?)
Some companies are using LokSound decoders but I don’t know of any installing stay alives with them
@@TheDCCGuy Accurascale are using stay alives in all of their locomotives (includingESU V5 sound decoders) - UK
Scale Trains SD39 comes with keep alive now (2 years later after you posted)
Hi are they safe on tsunami 2s because I have a bunch of TCS keep alives and I’m getting ready to switch over to All Tsunami two
I have used them with a number of SoundTraxx decoders including Tsunamis. However I rarely use them in diesel installations, just steam. Just make sure to get the wires connected properly. That said I need to install one in a brass diesel with one of the older Tsunami decoders.They have a good tech sheet on their website showing how to connect Current Keepers to a full range of SoundTraxx decoders.
I know this is an older video, but the latest drop in from ESU for N gage Kato USA, and a speaker leaves no room to mount the oversized ESU power pack. No choice but to use the small n scale keep alive from TCS.
I plan to try one of the N scale keep alives with HO scale locos just to see if they can get one over a dirty spot or dead frog. May work.
@@TheDCCGuy I was going to connect to U+ and I think AUX 6 and configure AUX 6 for power pak output on the decoder. It’s a logic level output.
@@TheDCCGuy and Merry Christmas!
Does Soundtraxx have this problem?
No.
Is it just as easy to install in steam engines? I've yet to see a "How To Install TCS Keep Alive in Steam Engines" example TH-cam.
I usually put them in the tender so there usually is plenty of room unless you are doing N-scale. I think I have one more brass steam loco that needs a decoder but it also needs to have the engine wheels and chassis painted which is holding me back.
@@TheDCCGuy do you have any idea if the keep alive from this video will work in a GS-4 MTH SP Daylight?
Is this just a Loksound problem or are other decoders subject to failure because of this problem?
I only know of LokSound decoders having this issue. I have also heard or read somewhere that Lenz used/uses a similar 3 wire design for their stay alives but I have not been able to confirm this and do not know whether their decoders have similar issues with using non-conforming stay alives.
I have a c39-8. It's supposed to have a capacitor. The INSTANT it hits a section of track it doesn't like, it cuts out. Anyone have any luck fixing this issue? HELLLLLLLP!
It's Scale Trains, lok sound 5
Make sure the stay alive settings are correct. Hopefully the instructions have that info. They should have set it up at the factory but I have heard a few complaints like this about their locos so it might be an issue. If you can’t find anything about it in the instructions better cintact Scale Trains support. I generally don’t use stay alives with my diesels but this may be different.
Thank you for the reply! Unfortunately the manual is pretty limited on that info. It does say there's a CV for it, but doesn't tell you what the ranges are. Nor does it have a full list of CV's. It just gets irritating when the sound cuts out momentarily half a dozen times around the track. I've cleaned my track spotless with no luck. Also I am having troubles adjusting individual sounds. It tells you to change two CV's, and then you can individually adjust sounds. I made those changes, but still won't change sound levels individually. All I can do is turn the master volume up and down. Other than those 2 issues, it's an excellent loco with amazing sound! Anyway.. I appreciate the help & love your channel. ✌️
If you go to the ESU/LokSound website you can download the full manual, just be aware it is a bit complex!
Ok 😆. I really appreciate the help!
Well N scale is still going to suffer the worst case of this. Locomotives too small to fit a KA in my opinion.
Yes, and those are the ones that need it most.
Using an ESU keep-alive is always safe?
Yes cos it turns itself off while programming
@@MR66HD I am wiring my frogs and will avoid KAs. But if I did need KAs for my LokSound locos, I would use ESU KAs. Thanks for the video.
Sounds like it's a design flaw that they don't want to admit.
No, I think it is just their design. As I understand it Lenz decoders use the same approach as do DCCconcepts’.