Hasidic Boys' Education Controversy | Eli Spitzer
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ก.พ. 2025
- Eli Spitzer is a headmaster of a Hasidic boys' school and a columnist for Mosiac Magazine. In this long-form interview, we talk about the Hasidic boys' controversy, which was recently covered extensively in the New York Times. The issue relates to the very limited secular education Hasidic boys receive. I talked to Spitzer about these big questions and on some other topics in our lengthy Thursday night talk.
I know that this topic ignites a lot of intense and animated debate, and I invite your respectful opinions. Let's have an interesting debate in the comments!
For Eli's columns, see:
elispitzer.com/
mosaicmagazine...
For more of my long form interviews, see • In conversation - Rela...
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Since many of you mentioned in the comments the issues of the economic outcomes in this community - I want to reshare my video from a few months back, where I covered how Hasidic Jews earn a living without following standard education paths.
th-cam.com/video/UXXOGYqbK5o/w-d-xo.html
It is true that Hasidim have very high welfare rates but I truly believe that this isn't as much about education as it is about other factors, especially the enormous financial burden of having such large families.
I think there equally as many families on medicaid, food stamps (welfare is rare) as there are millionaires in the chasidic community
@@beans4853 Oh? Are there statistics to back that up, or is it your educated guess? I, too, think that being fully on welfare is very rare. My experience is more with the Old Order Amish who also have very large families. Depending upon their group and bishop, (like a rebbe), they accept or reject government assistance. The most conservative reject almost all assistance. Others do accept limited services if eligible. After all, they do pay taxes, so it’s not like they’re stealing or taking advantage. Many Amish women will accept WIC and a few will allow Medicaid for unusual or catastrophic medical expenses. A few will also take SNAP, (food stamps), but that’s the less conservative who tend towards fewer children. Having 15-20 children is not unheard of among the most conservative, while Amish on the more liberal side average about seven. I know of one family blessed with 23 children, same parents, no multiples! You’d think the mother would be worn down, but she’s strong as an ox! To the best of my knowledge, the only benefit they ever used was WIC, back in the 1980’s. With most of the children adults by now, they needn’t worry about lacking anything. Only one child passed away at age 19 in a work accident, and one daughter left the Amish, (OTD), and married a modern Mennonite man. That’s the equivalent of a Satmar woman leaving and marrying a Jewish man from a Reform temple. They took it very hard for about ten years, but when twin grandsons arrived, it was an opening to begin restoring the relationship. The bishop wanted them to shun her, but they never did.
@Marie Katherine Marie, thanks for this very informative comment. It seems like you're so knowledgeable in both Chasidic culture and Amish. So interesting.
@beans4853 in the hasidic community if you make 100k ur still considered poor and have to rely on charity and government programs
I have been in public education for 20+ years, and I can attest to the fact that Mr. Spitzer is is absolutely right about the harm the internet- particularly social media- has done to our children's education.
Hi Eli
I was one of your students 12 years ago.
Nice to meet you on Frieda's Chanel
Good job great points
Eli is an extraordinarily intelligent and articulate person. As an secular educator (4 yr public college), I am fascinated by learning about different cultures. Frieda's channel is a wonderful source and this interview was absolutely intriguing and enlightening!😊
This comment so made my day. This is the kind of dialog I hope to have.
Freida as an hasidic guy married for 20 years I have to thank you for this amazing informative interview both you and him are very intelligent people that arr able to discuss a very contentious topic civily and respectfully
Thank you for this wonderful conversation. As a Chasidish woman raising 5 children in NY, both girls and boys, I can say with certainty that I want all of my children to have an adequate secular education. I'm not too worried about their religious education because that's ingrained in them in their daily life, starting from the mothers womb. However, secular education is a very big priority and my husband I make every effort to give it to them. We don't just rely on their schools, which happens to be are doing a fantastic job. We also supplement with lots of educational books, games and online learning programs. My boys speak a fluent English and they're 5 and 6 years old B"H.
Kudos to you! My aim is to raise my children to be fluent in English as well, it is so difficult to start this young tough because my husband's English is so poor so the primary language I use to speak to him is Yiddish and it really affects them. I am already teaching them biology and math in everyday concepts. We need to supplement the school, not rely on the fully and blindly
I agree. I felt no school can provide all a parents' demands. I preferred the children receive a strong religious education in school rather than focusing on secular subjects.
My children were born and bred in Israel so for both my boys and girls, English is their 2nd language. Yet I'm gratified that I succeeded in ensuring they could all read English, feeling it opens doors and that speaking is easier learned on their own.
We also provided science enrichment etc
They heard English spoken but didn't speak it themselves as children. Now all are fully bilingual thank Gd.
As a chassidish girl myself who’s in this systems, I agree with almost everything Eli is saying. I am so glad that he’s going out and speaking truth. Sometimes I feel like it’s my mission to educate the world who chassidim really are, in a true and positive way, but thank gd there’s a Frieda who’s does exactly that❤❤
good, and I hope you can attend university or at least go online. Going to college is an experience of a lifetime that you should not ignore.
@@desertpriere many of my chassidish friends have taken degrees online or with frum programs, but I have chosen not to at this time because I have different priorities now. At a certain point I was considering taking a degree in law and I might pursue it one day depending on my circumstances. I want to this with out comprising on my chassidish identity. All with gd’s help
@@desertpriere the girls are fine it’s the boys education that is at issue.
Q
Lowering Torah, Talmud, etc. to a lowest common denominator non-critical dimension doesn’t constitute Chilul HaShem to you? Did you not catch his demeaning reference to “Zionist schools” in the company of Christian and secular schools. P.S. Be’eynai ra’iti, all my numerous first cousins are Satmar from Yoel’s time. I was going to add “Harasha”, oops I guess I just did. You’re up, batter. 🤮🤮🤮
I have watched several of your longform interviews and I want to start by complementing you on your excellent interviewing style. It seems to me you ask very good questions with the objective of having the person you’re interviewing make the points that they wish to make.
I also noticed that the production quality is excellent. I can tell that you take a great deal of time editing which again improves the experience for us viewers. I would say your interviews in some ways are as good as some of the stuff I see on public television.
I may not agree with everything that the person you’re interviewing is saying, but I appreciate you giving them a forum so that I can at least understand what their position is.
Please keep up the great work !
I am completely overwhelmed by the your channel you have a fantastic openness on any subject you are a very very honest person thank you for this channel
Thank you Peter!
Frieda, wow, this was such a fascinating interview! I think I might have to re-view when I can devote all my attention to t.
Thank you!
`Fascinating, educational and balanced. Thank you Eli and Frieda.. I didn't want it to end.
Fascinating interview. My nephew, who is secular, teaches physics in a public high school. He recently started teaching physics at an orthodox high school. In spite of that more liberal environment, he finds these students as much more sheltered and naive.
Wow... as someone born raised and part of the chasdsh Jewish community, I agree with every word Eli has said. Thank you both. Keep up the good work.
While I agree witb many things he was saying as an hasidic guy myself I dodnt necessarily believe that the system has to be designed to deprive hasic boys from even communicating in English when they have a doctors appointment and neither is it right to deprive them the skills needed to pursue a higher education especially when so many boys are not meant for the extremely rigorous yeshiva curriculum
So interesting. I really appreciate Frieda’s approach and letting her guests guide the conversation while keeping it on topic. Wonderful
Thank you! I enjoy doing interviews.
Hello again Frieda. Just wanted to let you know that I've been binging your videos, and it's all because of Pearl (Pearl was in the first video I watched). I'm a non-religious goy, but I believe that there's a higher power nevertheless. What I learned from this video is that there's a parallel between extremely religious Hassidic jews and Indian yogis in terms of the mental/emotional state produced by hours of continuous prayer. You're doing a great job 👏 with educating the rest of us. Please give my regards to Pearl.
Thank you so much for your comment!
Great interview, we need more of this type of conversation!
It makes me so happy when I get comments who are receptive to this conversation because many people get so animated, it shuts down all dialog. Thanks for listening. I hope to bring more like it.
Great work! Thank you! ❤️❤️
You always give such a perspective in your videos ❤ 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Thank you -- fascinating interview!
Thank you so much. I find your videos educational and informative. ❤
Great interview. Thank you for another great video
As an “IDT Christian” (shout out to Miss Pearl); and an educational administrator (originally from Crown Heights Brooklyn), and the (“daughter of a Jewish woman), thoroughly enjoyed this exchange! There are so many layers to educational leadership that transcend religious affiliation so when religious ideology is involved, the layers become entangled. Just as Eli would say something with which I agree, he’d follow it up with a head in the palm comment. But for me, that is the hallmark of a substantive and insightful discussion. I was particularly happy to listen to his response to the practice of corporal punishment! On this, he and I are in complete harmony. Thank you to both of you, for this refreshing and adult communication.
any community should have the right to focus religious education for their children, but if they sideline academics of any kind they should not get our tax money for it.
Coming at this from a completely 'outsider' perspective, I am both fascinated and impressed, honestly. As a devout Roman Catholic, we talk a good game about being 'in the world' but not 'of the world' but it's a ridiculously tricky balance to maintain as often, giving even an inch of ground allows the world to crash over us like a tsunami. I appreciate (SO MUCH) the insular world that allows the Hasidim to thrive in all aspects. Eli's take was incredibly nuanced and fresh. It's so easy to pick on the Hasidic community because they are so religious and anything 'religious' is anathema in many circles, but in my nearly 40 years on this Earth, I've often experienced that the most insular, exclusive, and intolerant folks tend to be secular liberals, honestly. I think I will have to re-watch to see what jumps out at me after a second go-'round. Thank you for posting!
Right, but we are supposed to be leaven and salt for the world. That's why we're "in it but not of" it. We might personally choose to retreat to a convent or monastery but we're not supposed to center our community there or raise our children there. Ignatius Loyola said that if what the Church teaches is true, we should be able to engage the rest of the world confidently, and not hide from it.
@@mammamhicaoidh1275 I have a lot of respect for the Amish, but this is the one area I don't support them in. The fact that Mr. Spitzer uses the words "escape" and "flight risk" does not help his case. Everyone has the right to educate their children and raise them as they see fit. They do not have the right to deliberately hobble them in some way such that they cannot "escape" as adults. If the Hasidic community is all that he says it is, most people will want to stay. Intentionally preventing them from having the tools needed to live outside the community in order to force them to stay is not defensible. This has nothing to do with cherishing rich tapestries.
Thanks so much for your view - I feel like you express the crux of the debate and it's something I think about quite a bit. I thought Eli was very out of the box, unreserved in stating his full complex views, never talking down to the audience, and I really liked that.
@@remycallie You are 100% right. I disagree with him on this point. There is no flight risk, the system itself cases all the flights that do occur, it doesn't prevent it
I was brought up Catholic, but not really practising, I am in AWE of the fact that the Jewish religious communities fight this hard to preserve their way of Life. GOOD FOR THEM! I wish I were that strong! This is inspiring.
Thanks again for finding the gems in the frum world.
Went to Lubavitch high school (Bais Rivkah in Crown Heights). I decided to go on to college and the school didn't know how to handle it. I ended up having to go to college with minimal grades, barely accepted, and then matriculated after 15 class credits. Never studied higher math or real science. I still have my biology book and it's a joke, so much is left out. I was very unprepared. Hebrew studies in the morning, English (secular) in the afternoon.
My nieces all attended (some are still attending)Bais Rivkah in Crown Heights. Many of the older ones have gone on to college and graduate school. One is an RN. Another is going for her PhD in psychology. Yet another has a masters in special education. I don't know where you are coming from. When I attended, 12th grade English class was junior college level. So many of the girls nowadays attend university in person or online. You're talking like Bais Rivkah has never dealt with this before. You sound like you're just looking to find fault.
@@alizahalon When I graduated in the late 70's, it wasn't that common. I was not prepared for college, had no higher level secular courses, no higher level English, Math or Science. I'm not finding any fault, merely stating a fact, and that's you reading into it. Very glad to hear it's changed.
@Michelle Goldberg Most public high schools in New York City don't offer the higher math and science classes that you are referring to. That's why kids are vying for the slots in the few schools that do, like The Bronx High School of Science. The frum girls schools have always offered a good secular education. The public schools spread it out over six hours or less these days with free periods in between along with extra curricular activities. Having the day set up the way it is does not make for less of an education in the frum world.
@@alizahalon Even if true that most NYC public high schools fail to offer higher math and science courses (I’m thinking of Algebra, Trigonometry, Geometry, Calculus, Physics, Chemistry and Biology) - that does not support the appropriateness of any lack of access to them in frum schools.
You mentioned how highly competitive enrollment to the better NYC schools is - which implies two things: first, that people appreciate the value of children being better educated; and second, that the more intelligent segment of the population recognizes the insufficiency of the education at schools which fail to offer the more advanced courses.
@Jennifer Lynn You are naming all maths and sciences. Bais Rivkah has been offering Algebra, Geometry, Trigonometry, Biology and Chemistry since the 1970s for certain and most likely before that. Calculus and Physics came later. You talk like there was no secular studies department. We all took the New York State Regents like the girls in Bais Yaakov High School. Any girl attending Bais Rivkah High School who studied and did well was prepared for city college. Maybe not to the umpteenth degree but more than enough to get a Bachelors degree.
The kids who are trying to get into the top science High schools want to get into MIT. The average frum girl isn't looking to go there, Lubavitch or not.
Thank you Frida 😁👍🏼very informative and interesting. I’m learning so much about the Hasidic culture because of you. Very important to me being a convert to the Jewish religion 😁You Rock as always 😁👍🏼💪🏼🙏
Very interesting interview - a lot of interesting facts. Thank You, Frieda ✨️🪔🕎
I find it fascinating. I am a 77 yr old non practicing Christian. Would have liked to have the experience of being in a Hasidic Jewish community.
Beautiful beyond words
So interesting! Can you do an interview with Chabad too? That would be very cool
I don't feel qualified to tell the Chabad story. They feel very foreign to me. Maybe with time, I'll get to understand Chabad more.
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn Cool Cool, no problemo. 👌👌👌
Waiting patiently till you come out with one! (Or maybe a Purim in Crown Heights 🙃)
I love this. I would love a look on this issue from other type of Jews (Sefardic, litvish, chabad, modox) thank you for this. Much Hatzlacha. Good Shabbos!
I very much appreciated the conversation about the pitfalls of raising children who frequent the social media found in the internet. However, I think painting mainstream child rearing in the chaotic parental environment in a portion of American society to the strict rules of religious scripture leaves out the norms of mainstream parenting. In this environment, particularly in college educated homes, how to raise children, parents are using tools which underwrite what a child needs in order to feel secure, loved, treasured and at the same time taught BOTH behavioral limits and to freely develop ethics on the grounds of well being for themselves and by extension to others, rather than rules handed down based on superstitious and ancient ideas. In these homes, children can grow up to be able to express themselves and their abilities in a multitude of ways: artistic, scientific, athletic, communicative, etc rather than having a narrow path and little choice. This is even more true for women whose role is singular and whose other abilities are censored.
I hear you. To some degree it’s definitely true. To another, parents only have a limited amount of control and if they are in a world where everything is on social media, then their children can be exposed to much more than they care for, and at a young age. Great parents who try to find the right balance often can’t execute their vision if the environment the children are in is saturated by values and access that they don’t agree with. And having raised my son in the secular world, often around college educated households, I felt that childhood was far mor defined by screens than was healthy and it was hard for me to put limits because of the social milieu we were in.
Wonderful discussion. I think it shows the complex world we live in . What is good for one may not be good for another. In saying that having the educational access to see both sides , should be an option. Also maybe secular schools near to Hasidic communities should also be given the option of learning about their neighbours.
I missed it, what exactly do the boys study? I heard Talmud study but what does that entail, exactly? I did understand certain secular people say the children are not prepared should they decide to leave the Hasidic community when they are 18. But what do most Hasidic males do to earn a living and support very large families with limited education?
I found the interview very interesting. The two of you are most articulate in the English language! Thank you.
Mostly the women are the breadwinners.
Please watch my video on the Hasidic economy. In the Satmar sect, which is the largest sect, the men are the breadwinners.
th-cam.com/video/UXXOGYqbK5o/w-d-xo.html
Talmud study is basically Jewish Law. But its very complex and takes immense brain power and dedication to learn and understand.
@@csa6058 yet everyone needs to know the law. And by 12/13 the individual is responsible themselves. Talmud definitely should be studied. But that does not start until 8ish for males. An 8 year old will get something different out of it than 20. Then 32, then 44… The commandment is to study Torah. Ideally a father should teach his son. The Talmud elaborates on Torah. Why are minors not learning from their fathers? Why are they subcontracting this out to this community system all hours of day? The child and father have to spend time at home in order for a father to teach his son. This system is going against what is expected. If a father does not teach when he matures he is to find a scholar to teach him. Age 13. There is no age to end its study. To read through the Talmud it takes 8 years. Do you make male converts wait 8 years to convert to make sure they are following Halacha properly? Every male must learn daily but every male need not be a scholar. Why is the oral given more time and more importance than the written Torah? Torah never said males should not speak the local language.
@@FriedaVizelBrooklynI shared your video about the hassidic economy with my husband,a secular Israeli who teaches Economics and Accounting in University in Israel and has somewhat negative view of all hareidim..though has taught some older hareidi students in a special program, who were brilliant and he adored them He found the video fascinating
The Amish are allowed to be educated differently. But there is a basic for the younger grades I just don’t see applied here. The Amish also have a period where they are free to explore whether they will leave or stay.
I do think the Amish period of rumspringa isn't as free as its made out in the west. See my interview with Steve Nolt. According to him, rumspringa is generally pretty tame.
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn I don’t mean get all wild I just mean they all know they can live another way. The point isn’t for everyone to change their life but the choice needs to be there.
Does it cost money to enter a Mikvah? Is there a fee or is it a community service provided by tithe money?
It costs money.
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn how much?
I'm watching this much later than when this was released. When the conversation turned to leaving, I wonder if parents who have had a child or children leave become "harder" on the remaining children? I'm not sure if it is relevant or not. Love your videos, I always learn with every video.
Joe, you have such a good question. Sometimes, I think yes, that's what happens. Other times parents try to be gentler. Either way I think parents try to do what they can to avoid more children leaving. Sometimes no doubt it'll mean the parent gets "harder" on the children. It must be hard....
1:09:56 •healthy suspicion of anything new“ is what i have! Could it be the reason i adore Hasidics? (An atheist asking 😂)
This was an excellent interview. I was very impressed with this intelligent man. He seems to be very educated.
I agree with him on parents and social media. I'm 56 and am SO glad it wasn't around during my childhood, high school, college years and early 20's.
I do too. I feel sorry for kids who are on social media or have smartphones before they are mature enough.
Did anyone do the hard stats on the percentage how many boys come out of yeshivas and start a successful business opposed to the percentage of boys who have to depend on community funds and gov't services? Without this there is only open ended debate.
I think this is practically impossible to pull off. It's also not mutually exclusive: many people have successful businesses but with their large families, and the community's emphasis on relying on the welfare system and government programs when possible, one person can check both boxes.
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn and thereby we reach the crux of the matter: is relying on government subsidies (paid for by taxpayers) to support such large families a legitimate option?
@@liorajacob8094 Could you please explain what you are driving at here? Are you suggesting that if a community voluntarily opts out of the secular education system then they shouldn’t be able to access public support programs?
@@jenniferlynn3537 No, only that having many children while not being able to financially support them, and expecting from the outset to rely on welfare and associated services, is not a value system I support.
(sigh) Well, neither do I - at least personally. I truly believe that responsible parenting entails being able to provide for a child’s most basic needs.
However it’s very difficult to reconcile the disproportionate distribution of wealth in the U.S. (and how many protections and advantages the government provides the wealthy) with the idea that those of modest means should curtail their lifestyle and childbearing preferences in order to remain totally independent of government assistance. I doubt anyone would disagree that capitalism is designed to favor the wealthy - and has become increasingly more limited in opportunities to become upwardly mobile (because the rich fund the political campaigns of those who serve their interests).
There was a time when - to make ends meet - people with large families would have the children working in the fields alongside them rather than attending school. We can’t turn back the hands of time; neither can we curb birth rates.
You made a very salient point regarding one’s value system: there are those aspiring to goals other than complete self-sufficiency. Where the value system is predicated upon following the Torah, other considerations will naturally be subordinated. I’m really unsure how one can reconcile the two, but do note that the government extends these services for the benefit of children - and I do believe that’s sound policy.
I prefer to think of religion as being equal to culture, and culture is less about control (although that's a side effect), than it is about the inheritance of belief systems and these include language, fashion, customs, occupational demographics, economic structures and hierarchies, manner of relating with others, shared celebration, etc. So while religions are somewhat more formal in their focus and narrow in their beliefs they are nevertheless a cultural community which in and of itself holds value in being a part of human diversity. One can argue for or against any culture as being superior.
Well done Eli! 🎉
I was born in Hungary Iam a grand mother today. We did not have
jewish schools so I went to public school. The teacher used to beat us up even the girls. It has nothing to do with being chasidic.
I thought the main thrust of the criticism was that the Hasidic school system gets an inordinate amount of government funding without providing an adequate education (by mainstream standards of course). I’m thinking of a series of articles in the New York Times about how private Hasidic schools are “flush with public money”.,….
Yes, you are right. That's the thrust of the New York Time's criticism but for many of us the central question is really besides money and a more philosophical one: should Hasidim be allowed to educate its children in a way that doesn't teach them the language of the land and the curriculum that is consider rudimentary by society at large? I think the question is important.
Maybe some other time I will talk to Eli again and post this particular question.
Thank you Frieda, for this incredible interview. Eli is immersed in the Hasidic world but clearly is knowledgeable about secular culture. His mentioning Peter Santenello and Netflix surprised me. It was so interesting hearing his perspective. Eli is articulate and well spoken which is usually not the norm in the Hasidic communities.
Most people besides a small minority are way more worldly than you would expect. I'm a chasidic woman myself
Debbie Rosenzweig.Yes,usually chassidish people stt sssst stutter and stumble and can't string a full sentence together....yeah....way more than litvaks or non Jews.Totally.They are famed for that.A genetic disorder from Moishe Rabenu perhaps.
If schools are going to receive school funding then they need to follow the requirements for secular education.
If they choose not to follow the rules then they should not get funding
Agree 100%. I taught for many years in a Traditional Catholic girls’ school. We accepted $0 from the state and ran our school in a manner consistent with our beliefs. A few girls DID leave the Faith, and not one of them is one is on welfare or taking advantage of others due to insufficient education. The point of education is not mastery of certain content. It’s ultimately learning how to learn.
I would NEVER hand my six year old a smartphone with no filters, no apps blocked. Would you want total strangers in your home in the middle of the night talking with your child in his bedroom?
Keep in mind that change does not mean improvement. Sometimes it’s harmful.
Don’t mistake novelty for progress.
@@mariekatherine5238 Re: “...not one of them is on welfare or taking advantage of others...”
Why do you equate being on public assistance with “taking advantage of others?”
Moreover, given that so many secular schools fail to provide a decent education and prepare children to become self-supporting, how is it the fault of the children graduating from such schools for not being able to sustain self-support?
I think they only get funds for things like school books, busses and lunch. We pay a fortune for tuition so they can't be getting too much funding
Freida, you and Eli speak perfect english, I live in Sydney in Australia and although Christian have grown up surrounded by my Jewish friends. The opportunities to totally interact with so called normal Australians is limited by their religious observance so there is a limiting factor.
Eli's English is very unusual for a Hasidic man from his community. He doesn't even have an accent.
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn most hasidic men from England sound as if they have no accent. I think it's possible that, as Americans, who are not familiar enough with how much it differs from the proper accent in England, it just seems to us as if he doesn't have an accent.
@@chaimweiner8620 I'm not too familiar with North London to know how non-hasidic locals sound, but Eli's accent didn't seem out of place or anything as someone from the UK.
@@duouk2000 interesting, thanks.
@@chaimweiner8620 I'm British. To me, he has a VERY well- spoken English accent, not typically North London. There is a hint of ?? accent underlying on some vowels
My son 25yrs old.As a I trust him to make a wise decision now.As a 18yr old, he pushed his parents to parenting limits. It takes a community to raise a child. My maternal side had Jewish heritage in early 1800's
Eli is one smart cookie, he knows his stuff cold
1:01:36 It is a matter for further sociological study. So much could be learned and gained by having a better understanding of the chassidic community.
Forgive my ignorance. From watching this video, which is very good, I still have questions. I understand that the children will live within their community after school. But if the boys are not fully prepared in secular education are they able to obtain jobs and provide for themselves and their families as they get older and marry.
I used to think secular education was important until I saw how successful the men in these circles were doing. Many businessmen. And they do very well.
Theres a circular economy in the chasidic (and somewhat the larger Jewish as well) community. Tons of large successful businesses and most Jewish people will use them and the businesses use each other...its amazing. Many many successful people, barely knowing basic English.
Every American child deserves to grow up here speaking English, as a birthright. The deserve a comprehensive education that keeps them equal with their secular peers.
They are not "leaving the community" they are leaving yidishkeit! They can leave and become litfish or more open minded. Also the chassish community is very successful monetarily despite their " lack of a good secular education"!
It's not possible to successfully integrate into a society outside of the Hassidic life if the person cannot fluently speak the language of the Country where they live.
I'm UK born and live in a different Country. I had to learn the language or accept that successful integration was non- viable. I know Brits who, by choice or ignorance, move like a flock of sheep together with NO MIXING WITH THE COUNTRIES CITIZENS. Its incomprehensible , appallingly rude, and completely lacking in respect of the people whose Country has embraced us, as welcome guests, into it.
Hassidic men are not able to integrate without English competency and, therefore, ARE prevented from leaving the Sect.
yukel Where's the benefit of being rich but intellectually and educationally stunted all your life?
@Jacqueline Hattersley You're talking like these boys learn nothing in yeshiva. They study the Talmud. It is a wealth of knowledge full of history, debates on law, ethics, and yes, also math and science.
When I was in 9th grade we were learning trigonometry of the right triangle. One of my classmates was having difficulty following it from the textbook. Her father asked her if he could help. She said he wouldn't know this because he went a yeshiva high school (in South America) without secular studies .He took a look at it and showed her how to do it with fewer steps that was easier for her to understand. She asked him how he knew this and he said that it was in the Talmud. Astronomy is also in there. Magellan never thought that he was going to fall off the edge of the world because his navigator was a well known Talmudic scholar. Jews have always known about the planets and the constellations.
There are droves of ex-chasids. Still observant, but no longer part of the community. There are also many who stay on the outskirts of the community, not really following the traditions but staying close for the culture (and because they can't integrate even into other jewish communities knowing only yiddish)
It’s fine there is Hebrew and Religious Studies. The state has standards of learning. Those are meant to make sure at 16-18 a child could get a job or continue education. Other religions have religious studies in private schools and those kids have a working knowledge of math and the language. Even home schoolers have a standard.
'Even homeschoolers have a standard',I'm presuming you are extremely chassidic and insular of origin by that comment! Homeschoolers tend to be way higher achievers and learn more than school learners,so what exactly did you mean by your comment?
@@Tali5899 to legally homeschool in the US you show have to spent a certain number of hours a day on subjects that would be taught in a public school. That is what I mean by that comment. Whether a mosque or Catholic school or Jewish school you need to show you are spending a certain number of hours on English and math in the US. Which is the complaint of the current and former people within the community are saying in the article. Some should have passed the math and English. Math and English are really then only subjects that matter. They take years of study building up concept on each other. You can not just start math at 18. Most science work depends on it. All university work and most jobs require English or Spanish. That also takes years.
@@kristinesharp6286 I understand.This explain why chassidic schools don't need very much of those subjects-99% of their kids are not going to university etc so there's not much of an argument.
@@Tali5899 a kid could not get a job in a grocery store checking people out with the English skills they do not have. If every family of 10 kids had 1 kid go otd then 10% of the students in your system need English and Math. Basically they are kept from the skills so they do not leave cause they will not be able to find a job and will not be able to study for one. Got it.
@@Tali5899 no need for government funding then for grants or for transportation.
It’s not people outside complaining. It’s kids grown up now adults complaining.
It all comes down to keeping them attached. This is America. The kids should have a valid choice.
Where is this “community/family/religious observance is all important” any different than African muslims demanding we respect their religious customs of female genital mutilation? Where does the community end, and the rights of the child begin?
great video
I’ve come here after watching an hour long video by a nice lady talking about her Yiddish/English education. So easy to listen to and that hour flew by. However, I’m only into THIS particular video a few minutes and SORRY but that background piano noise is driving me crazy. It makes it so hard to take in what is being said. Your story is interesting - it does not need extras, your voice is enough. So, taking it the piano is for the duration of the video, I regret that I’m signing off now. Again, my apologies.
Hi, I’m back! Frieda, when I realized that this was your channel and not that of the man who spoke first, I thought I’d give it another go. So glad I did because after those few first minutes with the noisy background, it quietened down and I’m able to go ahead and watch it now. I’ve been enjoying your videos and have learned a lot, so I’m sure I’ll do so this time.
Hi Frieda, well I’m halfway through and can’t believe this gentleman taught himself to read English at the age of 16 - because he is such an eloquent speaker. From listening to the two stories, your own English-based education was so much better than his. You did mention this in your video where you showed us your yearbooks and folders. From a U.K. outsider’s point of view, it’s as if the men in charge of the boys syllabus are thinking if the guys are poorly educated in the ways of the modern country they live in, then they won’t be easily lead astray because they won’t have the confidence to mingle in that outside world and learn of its attractions. As a female, you were luckier, by the fact that you seemed to be able to pick what you wanted from both worlds.
Well done eli haven't seen you in years
OH MAN! This is something my 12 grade seniors always have trouble getting. Yes group x in "indoctrinated" but we all are I been indoctrinating you (as you civic's teacher) to value, individual liberty, freedom of though, critical thinking etc.. But that is still me inflicting a value system on you. I personally believe in that value system, it is the dominate value system of our culture and time, but that does make it a universal or natural way of existing.
Boys 45:31 learn Torah, girls don’t and girls usually will have children quite young and will not want to abandon them or G-d forbid loose them to the community. This has also happened that young women who leave have had their children taken from them because the children “belong to the community.”
There was a documentary filmed on a woman who had her children taken from her. Again this happened in the last 15-20 years in the Satmar community in NYC.
Maybe things have changed.
The Amish give a year, so to speak, then they can choose a secular life and or stay in the Amish community. These communities should allow their children to have a secular education. You can be religious and live in a seculiar world.
education cannot be truly independent and liberated bc someone's ignorance in maths, natural and social sciences affects my life. so even though religous studies can be changed by demand, some highschool level education must be given - regardless of a community's religion or life style
I'm surprised that the State of New York has not gotten involved to demand?/force?/assure? that the boys side receives some standardized level of secular academic instruction. Don't the boys have to take certain standardized state mandated tests?
The state has. That's why it's such a hotly debated topic; because the Hasidic community is using all its political leverage, as well as the power of the court system, to try to push back against forced changes to its curriculum.
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn Interesting. Eli has it locked down on social media/internet/cellphones as well. I live very close to Amish communities and the parallels are amazing.
@@Hope8x28 Not on the education side. The Amish have a "standard" US style of education for boys and girls, and in a most cases all grades are in one room . Generally speaking the Amish are left alone. They are in rural parts of America, away from urban areas.
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn I think that is so dumb. Instead of agreeing to teach better English, science, math and history and the state stays out of it, they will fight and if they lose they'll need to teach everything else as well. The stuff they find really questionable.
Wow 👏good video
Great interview! Very well said, though I disagree with some points. Maybe I'm the only one, but I feel like no one is trying to get me to stay chasidic. I need to fight to stay. I actually feel like I'm being pushed out and I need to hold on with all my power. Maybe I'm the outlier but that's how I feel and see my surroundings.
What's pushing you out? I'm very interested in hearing more.
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn How does one stay chasidic? By educating their children in chasidic schools. That's the point of this entire video. Nowadays, it is impossible for a large percentage of chasidic families to get their children into chasidic schools. Unless you fight tooth and nail, you are just not let in. That basically causes all those people that would otherwise just stay in the community by default, make the choice to either put their children in non-chasidic schools or fight for it. If they would be concerned with flight risks and be a cult, wouldn't the opposite be true? Wouldn't they be out there trying to coerce everyone to send their kids to the chasidic schools?
In the Genesis story that opens the Bible, on the sixth day of creation the Bible tells us that all human beings are created “in the image of G-d” (b'tzelem Elohim). Rabbinic teaching interprets this expression to mean that all people are deserving of being treated with dignity. If the lack of English taught in these schools makes people feel undignified, doesn't that to some degree undermine one of the basic values or truisms of Judaism? If we agree that it does, does that indignity tarnish the efficacy of their jewish education?
The problem in New York is a political and financial one. There ARE two clashing value systems. If religious parents wanted their child in public school, they’d send them there. The fact is, G-d has made man with a certain amount of intelligence and common sense. If a Chassidish, Amish, Traditional Catholic, Conservative Christian person does choose to leave the culture of his upbringing, most have the ability to catch up, learn a trade, or enter a university for a professional career. Public school authorities have no right to enter a religious or private school unannounced, walk about for two hours, and determine that the Board of Regents must shut down the school because of the methods and content of secular sources. You are within your right to refuse entrance of adults to a school where children are present. That is today, a matter of safety and security.
I take it the Satmar schools are free?
my 19 year old daughter graduated from poor public school. She went on to college to be a teacher. The belief that kids don’t get an education is bullshit. My daughter is not only thriving in college, she got a award her first year of college for perfect grades/ marks. She is on her second year of college and thriving. My 17 year old daughter is in 12th grade and she is thriving as well. If you have kids that “want” to learn they will. Sadly alot of kids parents don’t care if their kids do well or not, so a lot of the kids don’t do well in school. It’s not that they aren’t being taught.
congrats on your children's paths. I'm hoping my son will thrive post public school too.
Even in Miami, where there is heavy use of Spanish, school is in English.
my sister is a career counselor who works with many graduates of this system and none are prepared to make it in the outside world
they have failed all of these boys
I was surprised by his perception of Chasidism moving into right wing politics when I see such gross anti-semitism on the right-Nazi flags/salutes/language and open calls in some corners for deportation and even extermination.
And certainly the ideals of religious freedom espoused on the right apply to Christians and even more narrowly a certain kind of Christianity and not other religions. Their politicians are open about this. I would think Chasidism would choose to occupy more moderate political views-neither right nor left as neither support the community values they appear to live.
Hasidim in Brooklyn are attacked across the board by people from the left. That definitely pushes us to the right.
Perhaps your perspective of right wing is off? There is a lot of antisemitism in the American Democratic Party. I am perfectly fine with 6 million Jewish people and 3 million Muslims, Christian’s, etc living in Israel. The squad wants it be Jordan again. Senator Schumer praised Trump for moving the embassy to Jerusalem. People in the same party can present publicly two opposite opinions. What news channel are you watching that you think conservative people want people exterminated? They are not the abortion party. It’s not a glob of tissue. Make the person no longer human and they let you do all sorts of horrible things. Exactly what the Nazi’s did. It’s why the Muslims could enslave the Christian’s, the English enslave the Africans, etc.. they declared them less than human and that is what they did with a child inside the womb it was a glob of tissue in the 60’s and 70’s. Ultrasound performed on typical pregnancies with no red flags with image presented to the mom regularly from 90’s..
I think many chasidim don't know that there's an option of independent. I believe the left and the right are equally terrible. Most people around me seem to think you need to choose the lesser of the 2 evils, which right now seems to be the conservative right.
Where is this Nazi stuff? I live in Texas. Have never seen any Nazi flags or anything other than love of country. Are you sure you are not being lied to?
When harm comes to a child (under 18) it is no less harmful to boys than girls. Being cyberbullied, quite apart from exposure to forms of content capable of making life miserable for adults let alone kids, is painful, dangerous, scarring and potentially life threatening. Exposure at school in western society makes protection almost impossible.
I find Frida’s work very interesting including this interview. But I’m signing off early from this one because it’s very repetitive.
The Internet has taken the place of libraries and allows us access to many more resources than I had at my local library growing up, or even in my university library system (although I will concede that I may have had access to more _esoteric_ sources in that library system, and I didn't have to worry about paywalls!); therefore, children need access to the Internet in order to learn how to do research and how to synthesize knowledge. The big issue, IMO, is parents who use the Internet (or at least apps on their phones) as babysitters and pacifiers for their preschoolers (I've seen many a mother unable to make a phone call or bring up an app for a coupon because her toddler ran down the battery, or because said child will throw a loud hissy fit if she takes the phone away from it, and I've heard of stories of two-year-olds who can figure out how to access not just their kiddie app, but also the phone and make phone calls, and also how to access in-app purchases without the parent's approval)...
Eli missed so many points. I wish someone like him would explain the need for nearly all the men in the community, even those with no love or aptitude for it, to study for hours upon hours a day to the exclusion of family and career. Meanwhile women are better educated so they end up being the breadwinners while doing the vast majority of housework and child rearing.
In the shteytls men worked and a select few studied the texts. Now it is just a select few who work. We are in many ways a rural people and to have so many people who live apart from the world smack dab in the middle of the most populus cities is rather odd.
In many ways the studies and isolation would work so much better in large rural communities that rely on farming and export to the larger world.
That being said I see the struggle of men leaving school in the Chabad world. They speak perfect English and have a better secular basis but still they struggle to support their families. I think of a few who came to terms with a disconnect between loving their faith and community but also not having a desire to study the texts daily. Also ones who need to work or want to. They struggle while seeing converts from secular Judaism to religious who have degrees and skills and see their own lives and struggles against their better educated brethren.
Also dude we don’t use Netflix to raise our kids. Do I sometimes turn in Miss Rachel or My little Pony for 20 minutes to cook dinner or get a break? Sure. But I also don’t have older girls I’ve parentified. The haughty attitude is very much why I left the path towards Hasidic life myself. And the intolerant idea that being loving towards lgbtq and others who don’t fit a mold is somehow indoctrination and wrong. Imagine the children in his school and others who struggle to figure out why they feel different and can’t define their needs and emotions. He seems so close to getting it yet still so far.
It would be nice to see more Hasidic lawyers, accountants, surveyors, architects, engineers, pilots, etc.
With that said,
I think there is a huge misconception and twisted logic when it comes to this topic. I know plenty ppl that attended college and received diplomas but don’t have 2 pennies to rub together, while others that barley speak English are making a very nice living. It has mostly to do with ones willpower and motivation.
While everyone deserves a good education, that does not guarantee anyone with lots of money.
There are also plenty rich people that are not successful in other areas of life.
Parents and educators need to teach their kids to have motivation and ambition and drive them to want to be successful in life. The education part is not the sole mechanism or even the most important element to achieve those rich results
That's definitely correct but there is no point to deprive the boys from a basic secular education to be able to communicate when they have tobvisit a doctor or are interested in pursuing a secular degree especially when a nice percentage of the boys are not made to sit in a rigorous yeshiva system 12 hours a day. Many boys can't even learn for 1 gour a day and they would feel way more productive if they would pursue a secular degree or receive a solid secular education
May I ask, not being disrespectful, are both men and women in your community virgins at time of marriage? If so, that’s wonderful!
To your question: yes
I'm curious, are outsiders welcomed to patronize Jewish businesses? Im especially interested in the Jewish cell phones.
I’m always wondering why religious Jews don’t have the equivalent of a BYU or BJU or a liberty U? I wouldn’t say that BJU or LU are good colleges and know quite a few former students who hated going there …. But even these religious xtian universities have accreditation and have some capacity to give their students greater skills while keeping them in a more religious environment.
All I can think of is Yeshiva University but it’s incredibly exclusive. Why don’t us Jews have a religious university in which to study practical secular subjects? Or am I missing something?
Have you heard of Touro university?
The reason why secular studies are not focused on in chassidish boys schools, is because of ‘bitul Torah’ which means wasting time that can be used to study Torah. Guys have an obligation to study Torah ‘all the time’ while girls are only obligated to learn what pertains to them.
Eli has an interesting point in one of his essays - that so much of the boys' time in chedar is spent just idling about, socializing, shmoozing, playing, passing time. He writes about how modern orthodox kids are often more proficient in Talmud than Chasidish kids. He then argues that the lack of secular education is not as much about bitul torah but other elements - like socializing them in a chedar culture.
Why can’t we be friends? Why can’t Hassidic communities see the secular teaching as preparing them to connect with the wider world? Could you share your holiness with us, and accept our learning as our gift.
In America at least the ideal of universal public education is that it prepares people for citizenship. Each person growing up in America should have at least a basic education that allows them to participate as citizens. This includes literacy, math, science, history, etc. You do need more than 1 hour a day.
I don't see the current situation changing unless its a matter of dina d'malchuta dina (you must follow the law of the land). I believe it's possible to create a secular curriculum that meets the basic requirements without destroying or harming the community. But when each school is competing to be more restrictive than the next - then there is no hope that the system will correct itself.
Maybe the chassidic community can get an exemption from New York State to allow kids to leave school in 6th or 8th grade, like the Amish. Then, there would be no issue of bitul Torah for boys over 13 - they could focus (seriously) on English and secular studies at younger ages. The Amish have had an accommodation with the state and its requirements since the 1970s - we have a model.
The community should set a minimum standard that is acceptable to the state and have boys achieve that standard. That's all. It's a requirement - like paying taxes or registering a slaughterhouse or putting the English date on a secular document. That's it.
It's not appropriate for the state to try to use education to change religious values - that's not one of the goals of universal education. That's an entirely different conversation.
As an outsider I say continue living according to your belief. Nothing is perfect and balance is the key to living a whole life, however I think most can admit the Jewish way of living is something to be admired, and is. The grass isn't greener on the other side and the secular world offers nothing but death and destruction. Be grateful you have a REAL community and aren't force to have to assimilate to this garbage!
Such a well-spoken, intelligent man. A wonderful choice for an interviewee. Would've liked to hear his views on LGBT people, especially in light of the condemnation in the torah.
Talk about trying to get a word in edgewise…
Could the solution be the overcoming of recognition barriers between Christians and Jews?
If only we could recognize ourselves, Jews and Christians, in the stories of the Torah, our present experience is prefigured in these stories.
Somewhat difficult when in Matthew, Christians are explicitly required to convert everybody to their faith.
@@webwarren What is required is recognition on both sides that there is a Biblical family, and that it is in need of reconciliation, the turning the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers. Openness to the other sibling is only possible within the safety of a family relationship.
Mr. Spitzer, you have made such a Kiddush H=shem. You are BRILLIANT, ARTICULATE and correct about everything that you said.
Sorry Frieda I don't agree with this. Yes Chassidic children might be deprived from secular education. But nevertheless they succeed beyond your imagination in the business world. You interviewed on sukkot Ezra Friedlander he is an advocate in Washington a prominent member of our society. There are many more members of the chessidic sect who are prominent businessmen. And founders of important organizations. So please don't call this abuse. Negligence, to a certain extent, yes. I can think of much worse abuse, believe me. Please try to focus on the positive, not the negative they are our people. Just because you turned your back on them it does not mean that you have to negate them.
I don't know what you're responding to. I was asking a question that you can see, in the comments, many people have. I think Eli's answer was interesting and I'm glad I pushed him on that. I don't personally think it's abuse or that the Hasidic community is a cult, but that's what many many many people think, and I wanted him to speak to that.
@Frieda Vizel - Brooklyn Tour Guide By the way my grandkids go to litvishe yeshivos and the situation. Is rhe same. But later on in life, they go on and take on line courses to fill what they are lacking. And can become businessmen and professionals. Higher education is important, and so is the knowledge of the English language. I don't minimize that. But it does not necessarily guarantee success. That was the point that I wanted to make.
45:00 As far as boys are concerned, (as apposed to girls), boys are always more of a handful. It sounds gender specific, and perhaps it is for me to say so, but boys are more inclined to be obstinate, energetic, unruly, etc. This would explain why mothers would have an easier time with their daughters at home, and the boys having a higher propensity toward being a flight risk as well. It's also not uncommon for girls to have more responsibility at home and to have higher expectations and stricter boundaries for behavior attached to them. So for both parents and the community (or any culture for that matter) to address this through educational instruction specifically geared towards boys make perfect sense.
I will write more later, but I am a Bible-believing Christian and former public school teacher, and the government schools are NOT neutral. Teachers have been trained for decades to view their task as mobilizing the next generation for their idea of justice. We pray that our nation would not continue to cut parents out of their children's lives, for example, by hiding decisions about gender and sexuality from parents. Today, parents must have their CHILDREN'S PERMISSION to look at their children's medical records once the children turn 12. I commend Carl Trueman's book, The Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self if you have not read it already. Trueman is a Christian and a professor of history at Grove City College. This book tracks the history of the philosophical development of the current belief system in the West. In Strange New World, Trueman presents his viewpoint at a more popular level.
Dear Ms. Vizel, Dear Mr Spitzer,
I dissagree with your stances on this topic.
There is an entire genre of Rabbi's lamenting about the lack of education and loss of identity amongst secular Jews.
Whilst denying said education to people such as myself.
This (to my opinion) is a side effect of this isolationism.
And also the absolute nature of the values instilled.
Sephardic Jews, for instance are still being denied the basic freedoms such as dress, language and even accent.
Simply because we have different rites.
And diversity conflicts with absolute values.
Moreover, I am under the impression that Jewish youths aren't given decent social skills.
A great example is the idea of being submissive to one's husband ~in the case of girl's education~
and the active avoidance of discussing foreign cultures.
People should have some factual knowlege of what lays beyond.
My mum had extreme difficulty recognising abuse because of these.
And, consequently, had a certain naïvité about the 'outside world'.
Resulting in her being unable to integrate into Chabad society, ~my mum is religious, but Rabbi's seem to be repulsed with her ~
falling out, and being abused.
Thus I beleive that teaching some accurate facts about the outside helps in preventing assimilation.
You can counter this by argueing that even the 'good' secular education I enjoyed didn't give me said skills either.
But secular culture values drinking coca cola we, however care about our cultural heritage.
Hence we should give our children the necesary skills to be a Jew inside of a Goyish world.
Thanks for your perspective!
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn You're welcome, I hope it's usefull
I take umbrage about your remarks concerning Sephardim - at least in the United States. My mother's father's family is Sephardic (from Kosturia) and they have always gone to Sephardic shuls. I grew up going to both Ashkenazic and Sephardic shuls, depending on whether I was going with my friends or with my grandparents. While my limited formal Jewish education taught Hebrew with an Ashkenazic accent, in the mid 1970s, it became standard for even Ashkenazim to teach "Israeli" Hebrew - that is to say, with a Sephardic accent.
Chassidic parents need to understand the world around them to properly frame the negative aspects of the world at large. To simply say don't look, dont listen iconveys insufficient information. That is a non-starter for the child.
But this is not their philosophy or approach and it’s how they’ve been doing it in the states for some 70 plus years.
The problem in New York is that the department of education wants to force the public school curriculum
into the Yeshiva system. That curriculum can contai presentations antithetical to Jewish values. Evolution, for example, is in direct opposition to
to the Biblical account of creation.
Also there are references to non-Jewish holidays across the curriculum.
July 4, yes.
As someone who went to Catholic schools in the 1950s and 1960s, I wish the Jewish religious community wouldn't rely on tax dollars (and the Catholics got no direct aid when I was going). I hope to watch this entire video, so maybe my opinion will change.
You are right in your comment. They do rely on tax dollars and that’s very controversial.
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn I am sympathetic to giving tax dollars, since I think some of our urban school problems might have been fixed by funding the already existing parochial system. In my Catholic high school I used the same physics book as the public school system. I do think boys in particular need to be exposed to a full education.
This guy rambles like no other.
I wish there was a way to prepare them to have jobs in the community . So men could take care of the family and have less strain on government or charity.
There is an entire economy that basically operates within the Jewish community and most people are very successful. There is an equal or larger amount of millionaires in the community as there are people on government support